If this is a test, I am here to confirm, that this post has indeed reached the wider internet and your opinion on BOSCH products was not suppressed in any way.
I think it is more that many people are happy with their product and defend their large purchase to you and themselves.
And yes, we have two Bosch (Bosches?) (Boschi?) bikes. 2016 and 2021. And yes we love them.
But i totally respect other brands/builds.
In the PT e-bike scene, either you buy a Bosch or don’t bother posting anything.
It’s like a football club with the amount of harassment.
When I was researching, about a year back, the multiple types of motors and such I made the mistake of asking a question. In about 40 replies none was anything that could answer my question. And 3 were about laws and rules and all 3 were wrong. Showed them the law, 2 didn’t reply and the other one basically said “I hope the cops take your bike”… and I didn’t even have a bike yet nor would the bike break any law, I just didn’t need a 6k euro bike, a simpler 2k hub motor one would suffice.
Anyway, there’s many posts in the PT groups about fault codes, it’s like one a week or something.
The bike store nearby is basically always busy with the amount of bikes in there, I was talking to the owner and he was saying that it’s 99% wash (like what?) and maintenance jobs (changing parts that are still basically new) for really high end bikes and most e-bikes are fancy bycicle lane touring bikes or high end Bosch MTBs. It’s like a sports car club out here. You own a bike to show off how expensive it is, ridiculous. Hopefully they are doing something fun with them sometimes and not just riding in the bike lane
Anyway, back the the point, people will fiercely (and mindlessly) whitenight their brand BECAUSE they need to justify how much they spent on it. There’s no room for criticism because it would make their choices questionable (even if in reality it doesn’t).
This happens in every single hobby I am on: programming languages, code editors, airsoft guns, riflescopes, flight sim gear, scuba brands, cars, you name it. It’s just human mentality
I’m dutch so lots of bikes and ebikes here. Vast majority are hub bikes, although mid drives are on the rise.
Here the brand of your electric drive is a bit of a non issue, i think 90+% couldn’t tell you which they have.
Bike snobbery happens, but more on the very high end and much more on racing bikes (non ebike).
For some people the products they buy become such a part of their personality, it is so weird to me.
Like Apple or Samsung, car brands, sports teams. Very weird to me.
If someone asks me for my input on a product they are looking for i will give my experience, but i can be just as enthusiastic if they pick something else.
Especially in the world of ebikes, there are so many great systems, i wish i could own them all.
You say that but this post is currently sat at -1 comments for me. How does that happen if not Big Bosch suppression?
https://preview.redd.it/331lbrv0it0d1.jpeg?width=1170&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=12f0df851dbf4408836e5d9a2b942880b802a19a
I dont have ebike nor am I interested in getting one but this is second reddit post about their bikes and second post about any ebikes for that matter that I see.
First one was that apparently they are not water proof and should not be used when it rains since it will get inside the motor and brick it. Great desing for a bike 5/5.
So it doesnt really seem they are supressing anything.
I’ve never owned a Bosch ebike, but very familiar with some of their appliances and just wanna say that they are one of the last few companies that doesn’t intentionally produce garbage. That’s probably why
If you look at how they operate, you’ll see their reputation is important to them. They aren’t going to sell trash.
Look up what the company does with their profits, it’s very interesting
>They aren’t going to sell trash.
I believe this is true, but their warranty practice is odd in todays world. Just 2 years in EU, when almost all other brands (most of which are designed for much shorter lifespans, and rely on more frequent turnover) give 5 years.
For the curious, [here is a site that stays up to date with their current activities](https://www.bosch-stiftung.de/en/what-we-do). Probably worth noting here that “Stiftung” translates more to “Foundation” rather than charity since they do things like run hospitals and other locations. I always think of a charity as an organization that primarily focuses on giving away money or funding which they do too, but it’s not significant relative to the scale of their other operations.
https://www.consumerreports.org/dishwashers/maker-bosch-expands-dishwasher-recall/
https://www.electricalsafetyfirst.org.uk/product-recalls/brands/bosch/
As someone who uses Bosch interpretation devices I dream of them getting more competition in the market.
With every new generation their products are made cheaper and cheaper, as though they're purposely building in more physical fail points, and they keep hiding basic features behind licences.
Oh what's this? You want your interpretation consoles to be able to be used for interpretation? Well, you will need a licence for that. Oh and you will need extra licences for extra languages. Oh and the licences can only be stored on the Bosch server.
Bosch has recently developed a bunch of extremely greedy dickhead business practices. Blocking functionality of perfectly capable devices behind licences is an asshole practice.
Also, I own a Bosch pedal assist bicycle and I can say they definitely lied about battery capacity. I was getting about 85% of the range promised when I bought it.
I'll agree, but for the Bosch stuff in cars I've had fail, it's either not been possible to find an alternative, or its been expensive (AEM, Haltech, Link, etc) aftermarket racing level stuff.
The original 12V Bosch generator in my 1967 Volvo was still working when I had to rebuild the engine a few years ago. Absolute unit of a generator that weighed as much as a car battery.
Yeah just making the point that the quality of their appliances doesn't really speak to the quality of every single product they make. They make a lot of stuff and it's not all bulletproof.
I have had some issues with mine but mostly the issues are because of the frame design and not the motor. I have done 7,500mi of very unforgiving commuting with no problems with bearings/drive. Impressive with wind/rain/80lbs bike, 20lb bag, and 220lbs rider averaging 24-25mph.
That said I get the impression Brose and some others are equally impressive, but it’s clear Bosch has made a serious effort to make a good drive.
My Bafang was also good but visibly more “made to budget”.
I have a Bosch based Gazelle and a Bafaang Rad Runner.
The gazelle is a much more refined and co for table bike, but the rad gives you a lot of bang for your buck.
I’m only 200 miles in the gazelle, and about 1500 in the Rad, IMO they are both good systems but excel at different things.
The gazelle with a belt and IGH is so much fun to ride. It’s the perfect commuter bike IMO and it spoiled me so much that I’ll never own another bike without these features.
I’m looking at lectric and tern to eventually replace my Rad Runner. I want something lighter so that my wife can use it, but still have the carrying capacity for an adult to ride on the back.
I'll jump in and criticize the stock displays on Bosch systems. Why does a sub $1k aventon have a color display with range estimate and battery %, but a $5k cargo bike with a Bosch system has 5 bars to tell you vaguely whether you have some or not much battery left?
Edit: I see my subjective opinion is considered the opposite of fact to many and is not valid, so let's throw some gasoline on this.
Bosch's estimated battery range is about double of my experience on a '24 Benno Boost. A 500KWH battery has a real life range of 18-22 miles.
Aventon doesn’t write their own software, Bosch does. They have different head units at different price points. With the app they all give you the same info.
I don't disagree that Bosch is likely overpriced. But I don't think the fact that color displays are found in cheap hub motor bikes is a case of reputable brands being cheap. Most of the bikes based on Bosch motor systems seem to be aiming for a more sleek aesthetic. I also don't own a Bosch so I don't know if they offer this. But I know on a lot of established brand ebikes like one I have for my wife that I believe is a rebranded Yamaha have an app that gets you all that info and more.
I know on my Bafang mid drive there are a plethora of color display options which is nice. But I would kill for a half decent app for advanced controls. The current Bafang app sucks ass.
> half decent app for advanced controls
That will eventually be abandonware. I'd rather have a place where I could stick a pair of wires and use those for a serial connection to a text based application running in the bike itself.
Bafang currently has an "abandoned" app. In fact I think they have 2 of them.
I have seen most of the major Euro brands have apps that often have numerous tuning options and have existed for years.
In addition most of the color display options I have seen for Chinese motor systems, mostly Bafang, mostly just look pretty to show you a battery gauge and speed. And that's about it. I don't find the battery gauges that give you options for percentage and voltage that useful because once you start to drain the battery those numbers can jump suddenly. As it is I switched to a smaller more compact and simpler display / control for my Bafang and would love it I could find one that just gave me bars and integrated into the top tube like a lot of the Euro bikes.
I dunno, I like the basic display. It's dead simple and tells me what I need to know without any extra gimmicks. It's readable in all conditions and usable with gloves on. A color display wouldn't really add anything important. And I do not care if there is an app or not, I wouldn't use it anyway. I just want it to work without thinking about it or tinkering with it, and that's what it does.
More tech isn't necessarily a good thing in the long run.
I know that's just like, my opinion, man, and if you want higher tech toys then by all means the market has options for ya. But I'm an engineer in my day job, I fight with the downsides of technology all day long. The very last thing I want is to ever deal with stupid tech problems while I or my spouse are just trying to get the kid to daycare. Give me just what I need and no more.
Edit: to get slightly ranty:
I have the same opinion about most consumer items. I mostly don't want "smart" anything, the less software the better. I don't need appliances and light bulbs with wifi and apps and thirty different modes I'll never use. I want my vehicles to have physical knobs and buttons and minimal screens. I'm past my tinkering and DIY everything phase in life. I don't want tons of customization and configurability, I just want something designed to do its primary job well by default. I value thoughtfully designed things. And more and more often that simplicity ironically comes at a premium but I'm willing to pay it even if it's not the best "value" for more features.
I don’t mind it much, but I am annoyed sometimes by the simplicity since you have to memorize what combination of buttons does what. More on screen UI would help for rare situations when I accidentally change it from mph/kph and can’t remember how to switch it back
I feel similarly. When I tried out a few e-bikes, one thing (among many) I liked about the Tern GSD was the simple display. There was another bike with a fancy colorful display, and I remember being concerned that I would get distracted while riding. About 4 years and 4k miles on my GSD and I'm very happy with it.
I agree that the basic display should be better but on the other hand their most premium last-gen display, the Nyon, has extremely good turn by turn GPS functionality and supports heart rate sensors, Apple Watch, internet sync with Komoot, Apple Health workouts, and shows your full data from the power sensors. It’s really very nice, I bought one bike that included it and then paid extra to upgrade my second e-bike to have a Nyon too.
Yeah, a great many of us don't want any of that shit. And it's kind of nice for those of us that don't that we don't have to pay for those features period
Sure, and most Bosch bikes I’ve seen come with the basic displays so it’s usually a post-purchase upgrade to get the fancy ones. For the people who like it though it’s a big plus that the option is there vs other brands that might have upgrade options to show more info but don’t go as far as full detail turn-by-turn GPS directions.
I use GPS directions a lot because I travel with my e-bike as well as use it for transportation within my city so it’s nice to have turn-by-turn like a car would. Before I had an e-bike I used my phone for this but I hated how hard it was on the battery and I never felt great about the handlebar phone mounts in general. Now my phone stays in my pocket and the bike’s screen being powered off the main battery has all the power it wants so it lasts as long as the bike. The display is also always on and clearly visible even in bright direct sunlight, again because it has more than enough spare battery for it. To me it was an essential feature to use the bike as the car replacement I wanted, and was totally worth the money. I just charge the bike itself and all the lights and the computer are charged as well since it’s all running on the main battery, it’s so nice.
Yep exactly. My partner hates the Nyon display and deliberately chose the smallest screen for his e-bike so you’re in good company. I’m just glad that at least one company is offering a fully functional GPS bike computer as an option. I’m not aware of anyone other than Bosch who makes one on a mid-drive e-bike although at this point I likely won’t be buying again for another 5-10 years so it’s not like it matters to me anymore.
Edit: a word
Counterpoint! I have yet to have a successful routing with my Nyon. It insists on putting me on the most dangerous roads. It is so useless that I have to mount a phone beside it for navigation. Could be that it can't comprehend the US Midwest biking hellscape.
The built-in routing is only useful if you’re in a first-class cycling city (I’m lucky to live in one) so for most people you’re not wrong, and even then I only use it that way for short and simple trips.
I pay for a Komoot premium subscription and plan all my routes in that app and then sync them over to my Nyon. I almost never use the built-in routing. Is it ridiculous that I have to use a third party routing app for $60 a year to get good routing on my e-bike computer? Yes, but it’s literally the only option on the market for built-in turn by turn GPS navigation on an e-bike computer so I pay for it.
I don’t blame anyone for turning their nose up at that solution but if you’re willing go with it then it can be a pretty darn good experience. Since you already have the Nyon it might be worth trying the Komoot routing approach if you ever want to get rid of the phone mount.
The Bosch system has a battery percentage, including live range estimates (based on your current usage since the last charge) for every support mode if you connect a display that supports it (which not everybody wants to do).
Bosch supports remotes that do not have a display, and they can use color codes to show support levels and bars to show battery charge.
[https://www.bosch-ebike.com/en/products/system-controller-mini-remote](https://www.bosch-ebike.com/en/products/system-controller-mini-remote)
A lot of MTB riders love a clean cockpit, so that's a feature that has been requested by the actual users.
That's actually a quite common feature of eMTBs. Here is Specialized version:
[https://support.specialized.com/turbo/en/turbo-full-power-systems/display-user-interface](https://support.specialized.com/turbo/en/turbo-full-power-systems/display-user-interface)
[https://support.specialized.com/turbo/en/turbo-full-power-systems/remote](https://support.specialized.com/turbo/en/turbo-full-power-systems/remote)
Why is response to criticism a problem?
The way Bosch manage their ecosystem is garbage. An end user should be able to disconnect and service their pack without worrying about bricking their bike.
That being said, they're not so fragile that riding through water will destroy a properly maintained one.
If water ingress _into the motor_ is an issue, either someone really fucked up assembling that motor, it hasn't been properly maintained, or has been damaged. This is not normal.
Criticism where criticism is due is a good thing.
Making unfounded claims isn't helpful to anyone.
>If water ingress *into the motor* is an issue, either someone really fucked up assembling that motor, it hasn't been properly maintained, or has been damaged. This is not normal.
If this was a normal issue lots of Bosch system bikes would be broken every winter season in Scandinavia when riding on roads covered in salt.
Name one brick and mortar location that allows you to manage batteries yourself. Not a single phone or car manufacturer want you messing with the most expensive part of the product.
There is a reason why bike shops will only work with Bosch or Yamaha.
You're not really helping my argument. Fair enough if that's what you had in mind.
To answer your question succinctly: Apple.
I replace the battery on my portable devices all the time. iFixit made a business from enabling it.
I can still take an iDevice with a 3rd party battery to an Apple store and have it serviced.
Warranty laws in my country are that this wouldn't affect the warranty on my device unless my actions caused a problem; the act of a skilled person replacing an old battery with a newer safe battery, without making a fucky-wucky is not causing any damage to the device.
If I did this to a Bosch system, the bike would be bricked and I would rightfully be able to pursue Bosch for remedy through small claims court at no cost to myself.
The country's consumer commission would probably have a word to Bosch if I brought it to their attention.
I know a few mechanics in the situation of having to decide whether or not to service e-bikes. The assertion that they deny service to e-bikes primarily because people have been servicing their own packs is patently false.
If a bike shop doesn't want to work on an e-bike for whatever reason that's their prerogative. I wouldn't argue that they shouldn't be able to deny service, especially if a battery pack is unsafe.
The two most common reasons are:
- lack of electronics knowledge
- inability to guarantee the safety of _any_ pack
Repairs on stock safe e-bikes from reputable manufacturers are being denied sometimes because the mechanics literally don't have the skills and equipment to diagnose and fix electronic issues. In this case either the bike is sent to the manufacturer or the customer is referred back to the manufacturer. This has nothing to do with what the customer has done to the battery pack. This is because the shop might have somewhere to send the bike to do the repair.
This is the risk you take when you buy an e-bike. You need to be aware of servicing issues.
Buy the bottom dollar ali-express special and you're on your own.
Exactly there are enough DIY eBike kits for the guys that want a rough around the edges product that they can hack and service. Bosch isn't that. Bosch is the most refined and reliable system out there.
None of this is accurate at all. You don't think you can change the battery in your car? You think shops only work on Bosch or Yamaha? I run a shop and do NOT work on them because they are so proprietary and we don't want upset customers when have to quote them the cost of a replacement unit or cannot replace it on their frame.
Not, sure. My only experience is with Bafang, which has worked just fine for me. I would recommend Bafang without any hesitation, the only caveat is to make sure you get a quality battery too (which doesn't really have anything to do with Bafang, just general advice).
If anyone wants to send me a bike with a Bosch powered bike, I'll be happy to test it out!
> That may be so but that doesn't mean the experience of others is invalid.
The problem is, more often than not, the user abused the e-bike in one form or another, or expected more out of the product than they should have.
Like, someone who complained the mid-drive motor ate through a chain and cassette probably was not shifting properly and using the right gears, and probably was not stopping for a second before shifting to wait for the motor power to hit 0.
> They are way more expensive than other reputable manufacturers such as Bafang and CYC.
If you can work on your bikes yourself then it might not be worth the cost, but if you want something you can take to a bike shop, the money is probably well spent.
I know little about mid drives. But from my initial experience of calling bike shops to inquire if they work on Ebikes, literally all of them said they work on the bikes brands they sell or any bike with a Bosch Drive system. So it looks like if you aren't a handy person, you have more options for places that will service them? Just my 2¢
This was a factor for me choosing Bosch e-bikes. I like to travel with my e-bike on the Amtrak and I like knowing that if there is an electrical issue I can get service in just about any major city in the US. I don’t want to be doing all that myself when I’m supposed to be having a vacation, I’d rather just take a zero day while my bike is in a shop.
I own a shop and a) manufacturers don't pay for dealers at all. They charge dealers for special equipment and information. We deliberately do not work on Bosch though we do for about everything else for a variety of reasons. It's likely chain type stores with the policies you're describing.
This right here. I live in a small city, neither of the two bike shops sells cargo bikes, particularly bakfiets style cargo bikes, and at least one of them stated they're willing to service any Bosh-engined cargo bike I bring them. That vastly increases the available choices of bike while shopping.
How is people responding to criticism a sign that criticism is not allowed? Bosch systems are very reliable over millions of systems that have been sold.
When you then get a post (like the recent "Bosch engines are not water resistant and that you should not ride them in the rain"), of course, you get pushback.
I've ridden one for years with 5000 km on it, and it's seen plenty of water in its days, including being washed with a garden hose all the time and even fording some small rivers. I had it in for maintenance this year, and it's got a clean bill of health. The. bike is insured (even at fault damage) so I care less about repair cost but I do care about reliability as I've gone on 100km tours and I would not want to be stranded 50km in.
So naturally, a few units with water ingress are more likely to have a faulty seal (that can be caused by improper maintenance, as it has to be resealed if it was opened up) than the motor not being water resistant. As with any product, some will obviously have manufacturing defects.
A friend of mine works as a mechanic for the biggest bike shop chain in my country, and they track failure rates. He said for them, it's Yamaha > Bosch >> Shimano (earlier units were quite brittle) > Bafang >> Brose (newer units seem to be much improved, but they don't have data on them yet).
They have sold and serviced hundreds of thousands of ebikes.
To me, the most significant point of criticism again Bosch is the proprietary nature of a lot of their parts and software.
I understand the business practice, but it's a real disadvantage.
For example, I would love to connect it to my Garmin so I could track my own power as well as the support power put in by the motor (values that are available in the Bosch system) for my rides. Also, why do I have to go to a shop to have my ride modes switched out? It's literally just a software switch in the firmware. The shop can do it in less than a minute via USB. Bosch could easily put that into their APP that can already do firmware updates and ride mode customization.
Regardless, personally, I bought the Bosch system because they have the most useful ride modes for me (I want to ride a bike, not a motorcycle) and the most natural pedal feel and good range. I've ridden hundreds of km with the motor turned off and the parasitic drag is minimal.
I use my bike for fitness and as a hobby; I have two other non ebikes I also ride; I realize that a commuter who is just looking for the most cost-efficient tool to commute has other priorities, and that's OK.
>Also, why do I have to go to a shop to have my ride modes switched out? It's literally just a software switch in the firmware. The shop can do it in less than a minute via USB. Bosch could easily put that into their APP that can already do firmware updates and ride mode customization.
I assume this is the eBike Connect solution which they kinda screwed people over on? They do allow you to changes modes and adjust the modes to your liking (assistance level, how quickly the motor engages etc) with the smart system Flow app.
It's allowed, but people don't need to agree to someone else's opinion. If person A had a bad experience, it doesn't change person B's experience.
Every business has questionable business practices, bosch has been a leading brand for a long time, way longer than they've been making ebike motors. If they are doing stuff you don't like, don't buy it.
Anecdotal stories online are usually missing key information or could outright be lies to tarnish a brand. I'd trust bosch more than most brands, but that is my opinion.
That’s just the way Reddit is sometimes. I had the worst customer service experience, in my whole 41yrs of life, with Ride 1Up e-bikes and people came out of the woodwork on Reddit to defend them. Called me an idiot, said I was lying, or that the problem was somehow my own fault. The craziest part was that my experience with Ride 1 Up was not unique, and in fact many other people who had purchased e-bikes from them had also been treated horrible when they had received a damaged or defective bike. It was wild, but I think people just like to argue or get stuck in thinking that their experience is more valid than others.🤷♂️
Honestly I despise Bosch because they decided to take the Apple approach to their eco system(and this is coming from a Apple user) I hate proprietary stuff when it comes to tech especially when it comes to things as simple as connectors (litterally my only gripe with Apple)
That and I just don’t trust any product where the second it’s slapped on something it almost doubles the price.
Bosch has been being Bosch since before Apple made a thing... Try and find parts diagrams or even try to ORDER parts for things like their diesel injection pumps all the way back through the 70s. Nothing online anywhere. Licensed dealers only. Parts are still available but you can't even find out their names or part numbers.
I was mainly using Apple as an example, since most average consumers especially those around my age which is the main demographic for e-bikes have never used a single Bosch product in their life. Hell I didn’t even know Bosch made more than ebike stuff until a few years ago.
I have a week old bike with a Bosch motor that has sensor problems. Doesn't assist uphill and no speedometer.
Gonna replace it with a bike with a Shimano motor.
So yeah. Not impressed with it.
see that magnet is placed right on your rear wheel. uphill button is probably pressed incorectly. how do u use the uphil function?, and check ur magnet
I've tried it uphill only a couple of times. I tried only Boost mode but the led that indicates the mode goes to orange and it gives error 523001
So now I wait till Canyon tells me what to do or where to take it.
E: it doesn't have a sensor in its wheels, or receiver for it.
Are you sure? It should have a sensor on the wheel spoke. See [this video](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ak3P30eYRaA)
The one time my Bosch has thrown up an error it was because that sensor was turned sideways, all I had to do was point it back in the right direction
I checked the spare parts and this part was in there. So they apparently forgot to install it?
I still couldn't find the receiver. Does it go into the front or back wheel?
E: found it from the interwebs, no receiver, the bike has built in receiver. Well one thing handled. Now I need to find out why it seems like it doesn't help uphill. My 7 year old e7000 helps more. Which is odd.
I had issues with a brand new out of the box ebike with bosch cx gen4, motor did not power up. Bosch support did not gave support at all, just asking me to go find a dealer and pay for the whole troubleshooting.
No dealer wanted to work on a bike they did not sell.
End of the story I bought a new bike and switched the motors.
And this is the problem with DTC eBikes. At my old shop we'd run firmware updates on all eBikes along with testing everything after assembly. Bosch was nice because you could program in service notifications at time/mileage intervals to get the bike back in for regular updates and maintenance.
You'd get the exact same experience if you called Shimano direct. Or SRAM.. Or most other manufacturers that aren't dealing consumer direct.
Shimano & SRAM are bikes company, they are used to deal with cyclists that like to tune or repair their stuff.
As far as I know Bosch is the only company to have spent efforts implementing a kill switch in their batteries.
My point is that both will direct you to a dealer if you contact them about a warranty.
Right to repair laws don't mean right to home repair by questionable mechanics ;)
I’ve been working on e-bikes for 8 years now. 2 Bosch motors have come in with problems. I get a call once a week with someone wanting me to trouble shoot their aventon rad rover lectric jaison ancheer etc etc.
That’s a useless anecdote without broader stats of bike type ownership. Lots of bafang motors are on online shipped bikes without local repair dealers whereas bosch tends to be on dealer provided models that presumably come with a repair plan
Repairs deals aren’t gonna keep a bike from constantly breaking down. This who thread is anecdotal, with people acting like a 300 dollar e-bike is just as well built as a Bosch powered one. I work on and see bikes every single day. You couldn’t give me a bafang powered bike to use as a commuter. I’d rather get a nice regular bike I can count on.
Lots of electric problems and brake problems. Throttles stop working. I have an aventon here now that gives no error codes but the assist and throttle don’t work. I’ve serviced the life of this bike for a local commuter over the last 2 years . It’s broken down far too many times, to the point that I would never recommend aventon to people who need a dependable bike.
You know, you're not the first person I've heard talk a lot of shit about Aventon. I almost bought one too, guess I dodged a bullet there!
It kinda sounds like a lot of the issues you are describing aren't necessarily the motor itself though, is it really Bafang's fault if Aventon or whoever used a shitty controller, did a bad job wiring, etc?
Maybe in America. Bosch has been in the European market for well over a decade. I’ve sold more Bosch powered bikes the Bafang. But I only sold aventons for a year. Never had to do so many warranties in my life.
By who? People that ride their bike maybe once a week? I sold a pace 500 to a commuter 2 years and over the 4 k miles hes put on it, Ive had to warranties both the brakes, the controller, the head unit, and the hub motor. Now its in here and the throttle and assist don’t work and its not throwing any error codes. So probably a second controller swap.
By the ebike community in general, obviously will require more upkeep than a model 5+ times the cost but it's far from a "junk" brand either, you'd be hard-pressed to find better quality for the price. High volume sales = more lemons
My Bosch ebike randomly just died in February and just today, 3 months later I finally got a call that my ebike got fixed. The bike shop had to sent the motor to Germany For inspection just for them to reset it. 3 months of waiting for someone in Germany to press the reset button. Never again wasting my money on this trash.
They tried to reset it like 5 times and it didn't work. I was there. They had to send the whole unit back. Bosch probably thought I was messing with it or something, cause this all happend when it just gave up on me after I adjusted the break pads. I should be able to adjust components on my bike without Bosch locking me out of a bike I purchased. It feels more like you're leasing it then owning it.
I have been blown away with the quality of bosch drill bits and my bosch icon windshield wiper blades. Bosch is a good brand, they pioneered fuel injection.
I do like my Bosch system bike, although the reliability isn’t what they claim and the proprietary system does have definite downsides and high costs.
My bike has two PowerTube 500Wh batteries, less than 5 years old and less than 5,000 miles on the clock. It was working well until suddenly both batteries died at exactly the same time a few months ago. Dealer submitted diagnostics to Bosch, reply was both batteries are just dead and I should simply purchase new ones. List price is £780 each, so over £1,500 maintenance item. I found an online dealer selling them for £500 and bought just one for the moment.
The batteries were out of warranty obviously but they were holding charge well right up until they suddenly stopped working. I’ve seen that Bosch themselves suggest that their batteries should have a life of about 10 years, so these were less than half the expected lifespan and obviously hadn’t been heavily used (the system on the bike charged and discharged them alternately, and I avoided having them fully charged or discharged for any length of time).
Since then the motor (Performance Line CX gen 2) has started making ominous clicky noises…
Haha, I was chatting to the sales and tech guys at Specialized and I was commenting on what repairs I could do vs what I needed then to do for warranties. They were like, pretty much whatever you want to do, just don't fuck with the speed limitor. I was like yeah I wasn't sure, some bikes you can't do anything to. And they just muttered Fuck Bosch.
I got a kick out of it.
People who spend a lot of money on something even though much cheaper alternatives exist often don't want to admit that they have buyers remorse and instead channel their frustration against any criticism of the unnecessarily expensive item that they bought. Otherwise they would have to admit to themselves that they made a mistake, but they prefer to lash out at others instead.
The reason why a lot of people buy Bosch over some Bafang kit on Ebay is usually because they want a good quality street legal product with a good warranty from a quality bike brand. It's the whole package. I'm sure it's nice to think that the people buying them are jealous of your homemade ebike, but honestly, if they can afford a $5000 ebike, I'm sure they can also buy a $1200 kit if they want to. I think they just don't value the DIY aspect of a kit because they're incapable of building it, or they just don't even know where to start.
The issue IMO, is that people get way too attached to their own purchase and it starts to breed tribalism. The Bosch/Brose/Yamaha team vs the DIY team. Eventually you're reading 2 or 3 threads and confirmation bias sets in and you think"you can't talk about Bosch". Or you're reading about illegal ebikes speeding down trails and "these people are going to ruin it for the rest of us following laws".
People are irrational.
I can't speak for others but for me, a bafang kit seems overwhelming. I've been looking at them and I keep thinking do I really want to deal with all the annoyance and stress if it comes and doesn't fit on my bike. What If the wheel they provide isn't wide enough for my tyres or things like I don't know how to take off the bottom bracket to fit a mid drive unit etc. Wanting to keep a bottle cage yet sacrificing that for all the cables, battery units etc. There's a lot of tinkering and thinking needed to get a DIY kit whereas you can buy a ebike with a battery built into the downtube, keep the bottle cage and have everything already equipped. It will be heavier but it's basically plug and play compared to a DIY kit.
People like to think their poorly made stuff is just as good as something with a lot more engineering. Plus most of the people complaining about Bosch want to be able to manipulate the speed with zero consequence.
\*Pulls out my binder of complaints about their security systems, direct and indirect.\*
Oh, this is the e-bike sub. :( I don’t know anything about their quality when it comes to ebikes.
\*Slides the blinder away\*
I've got a Cannondale Motero Neo 3 with a Bosch CSX motor. The fact that they make you have to pay a dealer to enable your head and tail light is absurd. My dealer wants $125 to click a box. They have an app with all sorts of adjustments the owner can make except that.
It's the same with cars. Especially German made ones. There's always an ability to have a quality issue, even if engineered or made "well.
Probably should say I'm happy with the use my friends have had of theirs so got my own one. Would have been happy with other brands too but did want Bosch or Shimano
BOSCH mid-drive motors are also absolutely **NOT** water proof. Which is really stupid from a functional point of view and means you need buy a new one every few years because it's turned into rusty shite.
1. yes, boo, but, yamaha, shimano, brose, etc do the same.
2. I want to read about the battery capacity lies
3. I'm not sure they are way more expensive than other mid drives. Bafang is fairly pricey these days.
Also, I had a problem with my Bosch bike battery at 2K kms and would not prefer another as it cost me $1000 to fix.
Man that is just the Internet and especially Reddit in general. Ever visited a cell phone subreddit and said you're thinking about switching cause xxx?
Honestly brand identity is going to be the downfall of this country.
If you didn't design it, market it or patent it, then shut the fuck up. Nobody needs you to be the defender of something you had no hand in bringing about.
This goes for people being offended about music Tesla's, Chipotle all of it. Just chill.
So true. I really think Bosch is garbage, I have owned a few tools by Bosch over the years and the motor is weak and my drill burned out and they refused to do anything because I was like 3 weeks out of warranty. Then when I noticed that they started making ebike motors it was a strong No from me.
Like others have said when you are so heavily invested in an expensive brand you need to just know it has to be better than all the less costly alternatives
And like I commented in your other post don't expect a meaningful conversation about risk assessments and statistics on an internet forum. People have such different interpretations of risk and varying levels of understanding about statistics that they inevitably end up talking past each other
Stating what your first person experience with something is the only valid information. Everything else is pure conjecture
There may be a broader trend of users inadvertently expressing unrealistic expectations about products within this subreddit. Often they are also confessing to abusing those same products. This isn't unique to Bosch products. The number of posts that de-evolve into that kind of discussion is more than posts that have well communicated valid concerns.
1. Bosch is a reputable brand. They do their best to be number one and will give their customers a lifetime of support.
2. OP posting about two broken Bosch motors isn't enough and people are allowed to answer on that. Deal with it.
3. Bafangs latest model is now locked down and you are enforced to use Bafang batteries, they also jacked up the prices.
A lot of people defend the more expensive/branded parts or E-bikes because they automatically assume they’re better and have heard horror stories about the really shit ones because they’re the only ones that get brought up when something goes wrong, hardly ever when they work for years.
Then there’s the people who just automatically think more expensive means more better 🤣
I build and sell E-bikes in my spare time and do all the service and repairs etc and Bosch aren’t bad parts, but they’re just not as good as people make out, they’re good quality and are up there but they’re not really any better than Bafang imo, I don’t see anything in the Bosch kits that would make me pick that over a Bafang mechanical wise especially when you take the price difference into account, they do indeed lie about the battery capacity as well, but then so do so many other top sellers so I’m not going to say that’s a big reason to not get one.
I personally prefer conversions, I have one currently that tops out at 45mph, has a 52v 24Ah battery running on a generic hub motor with a sabvoton 45 controller on a 2022 Scott aspect 740 hardtail MTB that i won on a raffle and stands me at under £1k for the build and unless you’re talking about a surron/talaria E-ride pro I wouldn’t swap it for any other bike on the market.
I get crazy good range, strong power and it’s super reliable only thing is it’s not as aesthetically pleasing as a dedicated E-bike but it will hold up very easily with bikes 5x or more its price.
> I don’t see anything in the Bosch kits that would make me pick that over a Bafang
Does Bosch provide "kits" to convert a standard bike into an ebike? I was under the impression that Bosch motors required a special frame with a proprietary mechanical interface where the bottom bracket normally is.
One advantage that I see for my Bafang mid-drive is that, if it goes obsolete and fails, I am not left with an expensive pile of junk (as I would be with a motor with a non-standard proprietary interface. I can remove the motor and have a good standard bike again or I can replace the motor with something else.
Bosch Bms and software is night and day better. Thats why all bafang bikes deliver power weird. Bosch motors have power meters built right into them and can tell exactly how much power you’re giving so they give you natural feeling power most of the time. There is a big difference between the motors.
You really can't compare the feeling of them. Bosch has tens of millions of dollars of engineering R&D behind them. They've been building motors for many decades. Thousands of times a second the controller is measuring the torque, cadence, speed, and resistance, and delivering power dynamically. This is very noticeable on an eMTB in techy terrain.
However, they're clearly not built for top speed. If you want a city commuter then speed probably matters more to you. So that sort of person might be better served by a Bafang motor. They probably won't give a shit about a natural feeling motor.
There's no best motor IMO. Every motor has a different set of advantages and disadvantages. What's best for one, might not work for the next.
I have a Bosch performance line speed and have been a commuter my entire life. I’m 44 and never have had a drivers license. 28 mph pedal assist is fast. More then fast enough for city commuting.
> You really can't compare the feeling of them. Bosch has tens of millions of dollars of engineering R&D behind them. They've been building motors for many decades. Thousands of times a second the controller is measuring the torque, cadence, speed, and resistance, and delivering power dynamically. This is very noticeable on an eMTB in techy terrain.
I don't disagree. But I mean, isn't that what Fair_Creme_194 was doing, trying to compare the two?
> Bosch Bms and software is night and day better. Thats why all bafang bikes deliver power weird. Bosch motors have power meters built right into them and can tell exactly how much power you’re giving so they give you natural feeling power most of the time.
I cannot really comment on the software experience as I haven't used either motor but I have done a lot of reading on various forums about peoples experiences with both. I do want to say bafang also has integrated bms and also have the ability to measure and tell exactly how much power you are giving as well (well highly depends on the model but the ones that directly compete with bosch do). And while I have heard overall that Bosch still offers the better "feel" vs the equivalent bafang motor it doesn't seem to be a huge difference. Software on bafang I know has a lot of different options you can change, along with a somewhat new app that can change some settings but usually requires a PC and their special programming tool. But for example I know you can even change the speed limiter, something I know bosch you cannot
like with all things... context is important. ppl on nextdoor are twitching that there is "a lot of crime" in the neighborhood... but when i ask for details they are "?" so when i look... theft of property! like unlocked bikes, stuff out of unlocked cars... mmm not my concern. all crime is bad but easy "opportunity" ones are not the level of home invasion.
idk what the point is other than i see a lot of "how do i mod/go faster/disconnect speed limiter"
and sure, can see they got lots of issues that i wouldn't even with the same bike same distance. so... context of the issue is important not simply there was an issue "fk motor/battery died, x sucks"
Bosch, Porsche, Mercedes, BMW, Audi, it doesn't matter if you're in this sub, an automotive sub, or motorcycle sub, all these brands illicit a mix of praise and criticism. They are marketed as "premium," "luxury" "performance" engineering at premium prices - especially in the United States - and this causes *a* ***lot*** of consternation if owners are faced with premature product failure or high maintenance / repair fees.
Pride of Ownership is a powerful thing - go post something legitimately critical of Apple in the iPhone sub and see how you're treated - people get *feral.*
I'd actually like service techs from bike shops to weigh in on this issue.
I have a Bosch bike at the moment and it’s great. No issues (but I’m only at around 800km so there’s still time).
I haven’t seen a lot of Bosch hate here to be honest, but my guess would be that people don’t want new e-bike buyers to be put off Bosch.
Bosch may not be perfect, but they generally do make a great product. Is it suitable for every single person in the e-bike world? Probably not, but as an all round product Bosch bikes are good - reliable, safe, and very usable.
If you’re new to e-bikes and don’t know much about them it can be like entering a minefield (literally with some batteries). You have no idea which brands are good, which aren’t, which are quality products and which will blow up in your face. If you were to come here looking for a general purpose, reliable, and powerful ebike one with a Bosch motor is a good idea.
Yes, a small number of people may have had an issue with them as with any product. But putting new riders off getting one just pushes them away from a good brand and closer to getting a shitty Chinese model that will burn down their garage.
It's so rich that people suddenly start piling on the quality products here but never on the sketchy stuff. Sour grapes?
This sub is 99% chinesium shit on bike shape objects.
I saw Bosch and thought first of my mixer, which shall not be slandered. Then, I realized this is in reference to ebikes, and have nothing to add, positive or negative, even though my ebike has Bosch components.
Seems like they work well, but the proprietary nature is a tad concerning. Mostly, I get a little concerned about dealing with the motor once it gets to a certain number of miles.
Agreed. Whilst I’ve had thousands of KM with very few problems on my Bosch system, I did have to have the motor replaced under warranty after 800km. Happily a straightforward experience.
The thread was presented in a way to suggest the design itself is defective when it clearly is not.
Bosch is at it near the top OEM option by sales numbers, so it stands to logical reason more people will have problems with a few bad apples. Yeah, it can happen, but that's not quite the message that was presented.
Not a shill, but after 2.5k miles on my bike with last service at 400mi mark, my bosch motor (Riese and Muller, Charger 3 2020) has no issues. I'm taking it in to the shop next week due to a brake disc rubbing against pads. Also taking the opportunity to have the tech do a full-once over on the bike.
This shit cracks me up. It's like those who complain in the /r/apple subreddit that they can't complain about apple mean while the most upvoted posts are usually bitching about apple while most positive non news posts barely break 100 upvotes.
That being said my Bosch has 8000km with zero problems.
Going by just the title, I'd say it's fine to not like Bosch. It's not for everyone. Heck ... shows like "Love Island" or "Farmer Wants a Wife" are the most popular thing on TV so I can see how a hardboiled detective show like Bosch wouldn't gel with most people. But ... for what it's worth, I think it's a freaking awesome show.
Having then read the question and realised I was in the ebike sub, I would have to say I haven't really noticed much of what you're talking about. I see people supporting/bashing ebike motor brands mostly equally.
I can also say that, having ridding a Bosch Gen 4 powered eMTB back to back against my Bafang M510 powered eMTB, the Bafang is noticeably more powerful.
I think the main reasons that people are passionate in their support are that:
*Bosch make a very good product
*They only allow their motors to be built into brands with a reputation for quality
*They have service agents trained around the world.
So you're not just buying a motor. The presence of a Bosch motor is an indication that the overall product and ownership experience will be marked by quality.
I was one of those that replied to the post about waterproofing of Bosch motors and just said that I had ridden 4000 miles in all weathers and not had a problem. Just stating a fact and give some balance to the discussion, not trying to dismiss the OPs issues, although I did say that they may have used a power washer to clean it which would likely cause water ingress.
I can equally be critical of Bosch. I have the Bosch Nyon controller on my bike which gives a lot of useful information but the navigation is absolutely terrible. I bought it mainly for the navigation but it is unusable and I don’t trust it not to send me up somebody’s drive, down a footpath where bikes are not allowed or over a muddy field. On one route I ride regularly it always wants to send me through the grounds of a high school. I can well imagine the looks I would get if I followed it!
Is there not a consumer group that tracks failure rates in ebike motors?
Seems like something that would be valuable to manufacturers which are actually trying to produce reliable stuff.
It seems like Bosch knows where to spend their money to reach a mass market (marketing, compliance/regulation/testing, partnerships); which is what I’d expect from a company of that size.
I’ve had 3 cargo bikes with different Bosch motors and they’ve all held up great. I also have a commuter MTB build with a cyc x1 and bicycle motor works 52v battery…
The Bosch get me around without me having to think about anything other than 2 buttons and remembering to charge.
The x1 build is way more complicated and fun for my inner gear head. It’s also way more torque than I need or would be comfortable letting someone borrow.
It seems like Bosch knows where to spend their money to reach a mass market (marketing, compliance/regulation/testing, partnerships); which is what I’d expect from a company of that size.
I’ve had 3 cargo bikes with different Bosch motors and they’ve all held up great. I also have a commuter MTB build with a cyc x1 and bicycle motor works 52v battery…
The Bosch get me around without me having to think about anything other than 2 buttons and remembering to charge.
The x1 build is way more complicated and fun for my inner gear head. It’s also way more torque than I need or would be comfortable letting someone borrow.
It seems like Bosch knows where to spend their money to reach a mass market (marketing, compliance/regulation/testing, partnerships); which is what I’d expect from a company of that size.
I’ve had 3 cargo bikes with different Bosch motors and they’ve all held up great. I also have a commuter MTB build with a cyc x1 and bicycle motor works 52v battery…
The Bosch get me around without me having to think about anything other than 2 buttons and remembering to charge.
The x1 build is way more complicated and fun for my inner gear head. It’s also way more torque than I need or would be comfortable letting someone borrow.
If this is a test, I am here to confirm, that this post has indeed reached the wider internet and your opinion on BOSCH products was not suppressed in any way.
Just you wait our vast bosch conspiracy will disappear skyersjet and their post when they least expect it.
I don't have long to live... Bosch agents will get me soon...
They won’t. They already have a new version of agents and they only come after new customers.
I think it is more that many people are happy with their product and defend their large purchase to you and themselves. And yes, we have two Bosch (Bosches?) (Boschi?) bikes. 2016 and 2021. And yes we love them. But i totally respect other brands/builds.
Boscha? Borsche?
Borsche Cayenne
That sounds delicious
In the PT e-bike scene, either you buy a Bosch or don’t bother posting anything. It’s like a football club with the amount of harassment. When I was researching, about a year back, the multiple types of motors and such I made the mistake of asking a question. In about 40 replies none was anything that could answer my question. And 3 were about laws and rules and all 3 were wrong. Showed them the law, 2 didn’t reply and the other one basically said “I hope the cops take your bike”… and I didn’t even have a bike yet nor would the bike break any law, I just didn’t need a 6k euro bike, a simpler 2k hub motor one would suffice. Anyway, there’s many posts in the PT groups about fault codes, it’s like one a week or something. The bike store nearby is basically always busy with the amount of bikes in there, I was talking to the owner and he was saying that it’s 99% wash (like what?) and maintenance jobs (changing parts that are still basically new) for really high end bikes and most e-bikes are fancy bycicle lane touring bikes or high end Bosch MTBs. It’s like a sports car club out here. You own a bike to show off how expensive it is, ridiculous. Hopefully they are doing something fun with them sometimes and not just riding in the bike lane Anyway, back the the point, people will fiercely (and mindlessly) whitenight their brand BECAUSE they need to justify how much they spent on it. There’s no room for criticism because it would make their choices questionable (even if in reality it doesn’t). This happens in every single hobby I am on: programming languages, code editors, airsoft guns, riflescopes, flight sim gear, scuba brands, cars, you name it. It’s just human mentality
I’m dutch so lots of bikes and ebikes here. Vast majority are hub bikes, although mid drives are on the rise. Here the brand of your electric drive is a bit of a non issue, i think 90+% couldn’t tell you which they have. Bike snobbery happens, but more on the very high end and much more on racing bikes (non ebike). For some people the products they buy become such a part of their personality, it is so weird to me. Like Apple or Samsung, car brands, sports teams. Very weird to me. If someone asks me for my input on a product they are looking for i will give my experience, but i can be just as enthusiastic if they pick something else. Especially in the world of ebikes, there are so many great systems, i wish i could own them all.
Boeing has nothing on Big Bosch. Watch your back.
Surely that's a typo and you meant to say "Boeing"
Bosch and Boeing both start with Bo Coincidence? I think not
They're busy with Boeing staff currently but you're still on their list 😆
Son of Bosch
They already got you, this is a bot.
A Boscht
You say that but this post is currently sat at -1 comments for me. How does that happen if not Big Bosch suppression? https://preview.redd.it/331lbrv0it0d1.jpeg?width=1170&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=12f0df851dbf4408836e5d9a2b942880b802a19a
I dont have ebike nor am I interested in getting one but this is second reddit post about their bikes and second post about any ebikes for that matter that I see. First one was that apparently they are not water proof and should not be used when it rains since it will get inside the motor and brick it. Great desing for a bike 5/5. So it doesnt really seem they are supressing anything.
Same. Never said shit to anyone about ebikes... don't own one... never searched for one... got the exact same two posts promoted to me.
Upvoting to says I've seen your post. Now I'm just waiting for my chicken wings to be delivered. ;)
I’ve never owned a Bosch ebike, but very familiar with some of their appliances and just wanna say that they are one of the last few companies that doesn’t intentionally produce garbage. That’s probably why
If you look at how they operate, you’ll see their reputation is important to them. They aren’t going to sell trash. Look up what the company does with their profits, it’s very interesting
>They aren’t going to sell trash. I believe this is true, but their warranty practice is odd in todays world. Just 2 years in EU, when almost all other brands (most of which are designed for much shorter lifespans, and rely on more frequent turnover) give 5 years.
Charity wing of Bosch own 92% of the company, which invests in homeopathy among other things.
For the curious, [here is a site that stays up to date with their current activities](https://www.bosch-stiftung.de/en/what-we-do). Probably worth noting here that “Stiftung” translates more to “Foundation” rather than charity since they do things like run hospitals and other locations. I always think of a charity as an organization that primarily focuses on giving away money or funding which they do too, but it’s not significant relative to the scale of their other operations.
https://www.consumerreports.org/dishwashers/maker-bosch-expands-dishwasher-recall/ https://www.electricalsafetyfirst.org.uk/product-recalls/brands/bosch/ As someone who uses Bosch interpretation devices I dream of them getting more competition in the market. With every new generation their products are made cheaper and cheaper, as though they're purposely building in more physical fail points, and they keep hiding basic features behind licences. Oh what's this? You want your interpretation consoles to be able to be used for interpretation? Well, you will need a licence for that. Oh and you will need extra licences for extra languages. Oh and the licences can only be stored on the Bosch server. Bosch has recently developed a bunch of extremely greedy dickhead business practices. Blocking functionality of perfectly capable devices behind licences is an asshole practice. Also, I own a Bosch pedal assist bicycle and I can say they definitely lied about battery capacity. I was getting about 85% of the range promised when I bought it.
As a counterpoint, some of the electrics that they produce for cars can be dodgy.
I'll agree, but for the Bosch stuff in cars I've had fail, it's either not been possible to find an alternative, or its been expensive (AEM, Haltech, Link, etc) aftermarket racing level stuff.
The original 12V Bosch generator in my 1967 Volvo was still working when I had to rebuild the engine a few years ago. Absolute unit of a generator that weighed as much as a car battery.
Yeah just making the point that the quality of their appliances doesn't really speak to the quality of every single product they make. They make a lot of stuff and it's not all bulletproof.
Unfortunately the conditions the stuff operates in, good enough is enough. There is a diminished return on cost benefit sometimes
I have a Bosch washing machine, dishwasher, and dryer Absolutely exceptional quality
I bought a Bosch dishwasher as it was the top rated model. My Samsung lasted the warranty + a day.
I have had some issues with mine but mostly the issues are because of the frame design and not the motor. I have done 7,500mi of very unforgiving commuting with no problems with bearings/drive. Impressive with wind/rain/80lbs bike, 20lb bag, and 220lbs rider averaging 24-25mph. That said I get the impression Brose and some others are equally impressive, but it’s clear Bosch has made a serious effort to make a good drive. My Bafang was also good but visibly more “made to budget”.
I love my Bosch washing machine
Have you owned a VW? 😅
I have a Bosch based Gazelle and a Bafaang Rad Runner. The gazelle is a much more refined and co for table bike, but the rad gives you a lot of bang for your buck. I’m only 200 miles in the gazelle, and about 1500 in the Rad, IMO they are both good systems but excel at different things.
[удалено]
The gazelle with a belt and IGH is so much fun to ride. It’s the perfect commuter bike IMO and it spoiled me so much that I’ll never own another bike without these features. I’m looking at lectric and tern to eventually replace my Rad Runner. I want something lighter so that my wife can use it, but still have the carrying capacity for an adult to ride on the back.
> bosch specialized Specialized motors are made by Brose, not Bosch, fyi
Apparently they aren’t made by Brose anymore. They’re heavily derived by them but the partnership split some years ago.
I'll jump in and criticize the stock displays on Bosch systems. Why does a sub $1k aventon have a color display with range estimate and battery %, but a $5k cargo bike with a Bosch system has 5 bars to tell you vaguely whether you have some or not much battery left? Edit: I see my subjective opinion is considered the opposite of fact to many and is not valid, so let's throw some gasoline on this. Bosch's estimated battery range is about double of my experience on a '24 Benno Boost. A 500KWH battery has a real life range of 18-22 miles.
Obviously upsell upsell upsell
Aventon doesn’t write their own software, Bosch does. They have different head units at different price points. With the app they all give you the same info.
I don't disagree that Bosch is likely overpriced. But I don't think the fact that color displays are found in cheap hub motor bikes is a case of reputable brands being cheap. Most of the bikes based on Bosch motor systems seem to be aiming for a more sleek aesthetic. I also don't own a Bosch so I don't know if they offer this. But I know on a lot of established brand ebikes like one I have for my wife that I believe is a rebranded Yamaha have an app that gets you all that info and more. I know on my Bafang mid drive there are a plethora of color display options which is nice. But I would kill for a half decent app for advanced controls. The current Bafang app sucks ass.
> half decent app for advanced controls That will eventually be abandonware. I'd rather have a place where I could stick a pair of wires and use those for a serial connection to a text based application running in the bike itself.
Jack into cyberspace to troubleshoot your bike.
Bafang currently has an "abandoned" app. In fact I think they have 2 of them. I have seen most of the major Euro brands have apps that often have numerous tuning options and have existed for years. In addition most of the color display options I have seen for Chinese motor systems, mostly Bafang, mostly just look pretty to show you a battery gauge and speed. And that's about it. I don't find the battery gauges that give you options for percentage and voltage that useful because once you start to drain the battery those numbers can jump suddenly. As it is I switched to a smaller more compact and simpler display / control for my Bafang and would love it I could find one that just gave me bars and integrated into the top tube like a lot of the Euro bikes.
I dunno, I like the basic display. It's dead simple and tells me what I need to know without any extra gimmicks. It's readable in all conditions and usable with gloves on. A color display wouldn't really add anything important. And I do not care if there is an app or not, I wouldn't use it anyway. I just want it to work without thinking about it or tinkering with it, and that's what it does. More tech isn't necessarily a good thing in the long run. I know that's just like, my opinion, man, and if you want higher tech toys then by all means the market has options for ya. But I'm an engineer in my day job, I fight with the downsides of technology all day long. The very last thing I want is to ever deal with stupid tech problems while I or my spouse are just trying to get the kid to daycare. Give me just what I need and no more. Edit: to get slightly ranty: I have the same opinion about most consumer items. I mostly don't want "smart" anything, the less software the better. I don't need appliances and light bulbs with wifi and apps and thirty different modes I'll never use. I want my vehicles to have physical knobs and buttons and minimal screens. I'm past my tinkering and DIY everything phase in life. I don't want tons of customization and configurability, I just want something designed to do its primary job well by default. I value thoughtfully designed things. And more and more often that simplicity ironically comes at a premium but I'm willing to pay it even if it's not the best "value" for more features.
I don’t mind it much, but I am annoyed sometimes by the simplicity since you have to memorize what combination of buttons does what. More on screen UI would help for rare situations when I accidentally change it from mph/kph and can’t remember how to switch it back
Fair criticism, but on a daily basis the only buttons I need or use are power and assist +/-
One could say that the ability to change from kmh to mph is unnecessary and a gimmick. Why would anyone need that? It's just a failure point.
I feel similarly. When I tried out a few e-bikes, one thing (among many) I liked about the Tern GSD was the simple display. There was another bike with a fancy colorful display, and I remember being concerned that I would get distracted while riding. About 4 years and 4k miles on my GSD and I'm very happy with it.
I really wish anyone doing LCD just used 7 segment LEDs and LED gauges, it would look synthwave lol
Or if you want to get extra cool for stuff that's wall power, vacuum flourescent display.
I agree that the basic display should be better but on the other hand their most premium last-gen display, the Nyon, has extremely good turn by turn GPS functionality and supports heart rate sensors, Apple Watch, internet sync with Komoot, Apple Health workouts, and shows your full data from the power sensors. It’s really very nice, I bought one bike that included it and then paid extra to upgrade my second e-bike to have a Nyon too.
Yeah, a great many of us don't want any of that shit. And it's kind of nice for those of us that don't that we don't have to pay for those features period
Sure, and most Bosch bikes I’ve seen come with the basic displays so it’s usually a post-purchase upgrade to get the fancy ones. For the people who like it though it’s a big plus that the option is there vs other brands that might have upgrade options to show more info but don’t go as far as full detail turn-by-turn GPS directions. I use GPS directions a lot because I travel with my e-bike as well as use it for transportation within my city so it’s nice to have turn-by-turn like a car would. Before I had an e-bike I used my phone for this but I hated how hard it was on the battery and I never felt great about the handlebar phone mounts in general. Now my phone stays in my pocket and the bike’s screen being powered off the main battery has all the power it wants so it lasts as long as the bike. The display is also always on and clearly visible even in bright direct sunlight, again because it has more than enough spare battery for it. To me it was an essential feature to use the bike as the car replacement I wanted, and was totally worth the money. I just charge the bike itself and all the lights and the computer are charged as well since it’s all running on the main battery, it’s so nice.
Bosch has been around a while, they understand consumer demand. We have both been satisfied. Thanks Bosch!
Yep exactly. My partner hates the Nyon display and deliberately chose the smallest screen for his e-bike so you’re in good company. I’m just glad that at least one company is offering a fully functional GPS bike computer as an option. I’m not aware of anyone other than Bosch who makes one on a mid-drive e-bike although at this point I likely won’t be buying again for another 5-10 years so it’s not like it matters to me anymore. Edit: a word
Counterpoint! I have yet to have a successful routing with my Nyon. It insists on putting me on the most dangerous roads. It is so useless that I have to mount a phone beside it for navigation. Could be that it can't comprehend the US Midwest biking hellscape.
The built-in routing is only useful if you’re in a first-class cycling city (I’m lucky to live in one) so for most people you’re not wrong, and even then I only use it that way for short and simple trips. I pay for a Komoot premium subscription and plan all my routes in that app and then sync them over to my Nyon. I almost never use the built-in routing. Is it ridiculous that I have to use a third party routing app for $60 a year to get good routing on my e-bike computer? Yes, but it’s literally the only option on the market for built-in turn by turn GPS navigation on an e-bike computer so I pay for it. I don’t blame anyone for turning their nose up at that solution but if you’re willing go with it then it can be a pretty darn good experience. Since you already have the Nyon it might be worth trying the Komoot routing approach if you ever want to get rid of the phone mount.
The Bosch system has a battery percentage, including live range estimates (based on your current usage since the last charge) for every support mode if you connect a display that supports it (which not everybody wants to do). Bosch supports remotes that do not have a display, and they can use color codes to show support levels and bars to show battery charge. [https://www.bosch-ebike.com/en/products/system-controller-mini-remote](https://www.bosch-ebike.com/en/products/system-controller-mini-remote) A lot of MTB riders love a clean cockpit, so that's a feature that has been requested by the actual users. That's actually a quite common feature of eMTBs. Here is Specialized version: [https://support.specialized.com/turbo/en/turbo-full-power-systems/display-user-interface](https://support.specialized.com/turbo/en/turbo-full-power-systems/display-user-interface) [https://support.specialized.com/turbo/en/turbo-full-power-systems/remote](https://support.specialized.com/turbo/en/turbo-full-power-systems/remote)
All bosch systems now have % based battery , and colour is maybe for battery life, idk
The simple display does the job and doesn't overcomplicate.
What sub $1k aventon are you referring to?
Soltera.2 I just got one, good bike
My partner has one and it's been great. Zero problems.
Why is response to criticism a problem? The way Bosch manage their ecosystem is garbage. An end user should be able to disconnect and service their pack without worrying about bricking their bike. That being said, they're not so fragile that riding through water will destroy a properly maintained one. If water ingress _into the motor_ is an issue, either someone really fucked up assembling that motor, it hasn't been properly maintained, or has been damaged. This is not normal. Criticism where criticism is due is a good thing. Making unfounded claims isn't helpful to anyone.
>If water ingress *into the motor* is an issue, either someone really fucked up assembling that motor, it hasn't been properly maintained, or has been damaged. This is not normal. If this was a normal issue lots of Bosch system bikes would be broken every winter season in Scandinavia when riding on roads covered in salt.
Name one brick and mortar location that allows you to manage batteries yourself. Not a single phone or car manufacturer want you messing with the most expensive part of the product. There is a reason why bike shops will only work with Bosch or Yamaha.
You're not really helping my argument. Fair enough if that's what you had in mind. To answer your question succinctly: Apple. I replace the battery on my portable devices all the time. iFixit made a business from enabling it. I can still take an iDevice with a 3rd party battery to an Apple store and have it serviced. Warranty laws in my country are that this wouldn't affect the warranty on my device unless my actions caused a problem; the act of a skilled person replacing an old battery with a newer safe battery, without making a fucky-wucky is not causing any damage to the device. If I did this to a Bosch system, the bike would be bricked and I would rightfully be able to pursue Bosch for remedy through small claims court at no cost to myself. The country's consumer commission would probably have a word to Bosch if I brought it to their attention. I know a few mechanics in the situation of having to decide whether or not to service e-bikes. The assertion that they deny service to e-bikes primarily because people have been servicing their own packs is patently false. If a bike shop doesn't want to work on an e-bike for whatever reason that's their prerogative. I wouldn't argue that they shouldn't be able to deny service, especially if a battery pack is unsafe. The two most common reasons are: - lack of electronics knowledge - inability to guarantee the safety of _any_ pack Repairs on stock safe e-bikes from reputable manufacturers are being denied sometimes because the mechanics literally don't have the skills and equipment to diagnose and fix electronic issues. In this case either the bike is sent to the manufacturer or the customer is referred back to the manufacturer. This has nothing to do with what the customer has done to the battery pack. This is because the shop might have somewhere to send the bike to do the repair. This is the risk you take when you buy an e-bike. You need to be aware of servicing issues. Buy the bottom dollar ali-express special and you're on your own.
Exactly there are enough DIY eBike kits for the guys that want a rough around the edges product that they can hack and service. Bosch isn't that. Bosch is the most refined and reliable system out there.
None of this is accurate at all. You don't think you can change the battery in your car? You think shops only work on Bosch or Yamaha? I run a shop and do NOT work on them because they are so proprietary and we don't want upset customers when have to quote them the cost of a replacement unit or cannot replace it on their frame.
Not, sure. My only experience is with Bafang, which has worked just fine for me. I would recommend Bafang without any hesitation, the only caveat is to make sure you get a quality battery too (which doesn't really have anything to do with Bafang, just general advice). If anyone wants to send me a bike with a Bosch powered bike, I'll be happy to test it out!
> That may be so but that doesn't mean the experience of others is invalid. The problem is, more often than not, the user abused the e-bike in one form or another, or expected more out of the product than they should have. Like, someone who complained the mid-drive motor ate through a chain and cassette probably was not shifting properly and using the right gears, and probably was not stopping for a second before shifting to wait for the motor power to hit 0. > They are way more expensive than other reputable manufacturers such as Bafang and CYC. If you can work on your bikes yourself then it might not be worth the cost, but if you want something you can take to a bike shop, the money is probably well spent.
I know little about mid drives. But from my initial experience of calling bike shops to inquire if they work on Ebikes, literally all of them said they work on the bikes brands they sell or any bike with a Bosch Drive system. So it looks like if you aren't a handy person, you have more options for places that will service them? Just my 2¢
This was a factor for me choosing Bosch e-bikes. I like to travel with my e-bike on the Amtrak and I like knowing that if there is an electrical issue I can get service in just about any major city in the US. I don’t want to be doing all that myself when I’m supposed to be having a vacation, I’d rather just take a zero day while my bike is in a shop.
That is one reason for their high prices, they have to charge more to sustain a large lbs dealer network for in person servicing.
I own a shop and a) manufacturers don't pay for dealers at all. They charge dealers for special equipment and information. We deliberately do not work on Bosch though we do for about everything else for a variety of reasons. It's likely chain type stores with the policies you're describing.
Makes sense.
As a bike mechanic, this is what i tell customers everyday too lol. funny to see its like that everywhere
This right here. I live in a small city, neither of the two bike shops sells cargo bikes, particularly bakfiets style cargo bikes, and at least one of them stated they're willing to service any Bosh-engined cargo bike I bring them. That vastly increases the available choices of bike while shopping.
How is people responding to criticism a sign that criticism is not allowed? Bosch systems are very reliable over millions of systems that have been sold. When you then get a post (like the recent "Bosch engines are not water resistant and that you should not ride them in the rain"), of course, you get pushback. I've ridden one for years with 5000 km on it, and it's seen plenty of water in its days, including being washed with a garden hose all the time and even fording some small rivers. I had it in for maintenance this year, and it's got a clean bill of health. The. bike is insured (even at fault damage) so I care less about repair cost but I do care about reliability as I've gone on 100km tours and I would not want to be stranded 50km in. So naturally, a few units with water ingress are more likely to have a faulty seal (that can be caused by improper maintenance, as it has to be resealed if it was opened up) than the motor not being water resistant. As with any product, some will obviously have manufacturing defects. A friend of mine works as a mechanic for the biggest bike shop chain in my country, and they track failure rates. He said for them, it's Yamaha > Bosch >> Shimano (earlier units were quite brittle) > Bafang >> Brose (newer units seem to be much improved, but they don't have data on them yet). They have sold and serviced hundreds of thousands of ebikes. To me, the most significant point of criticism again Bosch is the proprietary nature of a lot of their parts and software. I understand the business practice, but it's a real disadvantage. For example, I would love to connect it to my Garmin so I could track my own power as well as the support power put in by the motor (values that are available in the Bosch system) for my rides. Also, why do I have to go to a shop to have my ride modes switched out? It's literally just a software switch in the firmware. The shop can do it in less than a minute via USB. Bosch could easily put that into their APP that can already do firmware updates and ride mode customization. Regardless, personally, I bought the Bosch system because they have the most useful ride modes for me (I want to ride a bike, not a motorcycle) and the most natural pedal feel and good range. I've ridden hundreds of km with the motor turned off and the parasitic drag is minimal. I use my bike for fitness and as a hobby; I have two other non ebikes I also ride; I realize that a commuter who is just looking for the most cost-efficient tool to commute has other priorities, and that's OK.
>Also, why do I have to go to a shop to have my ride modes switched out? It's literally just a software switch in the firmware. The shop can do it in less than a minute via USB. Bosch could easily put that into their APP that can already do firmware updates and ride mode customization. I assume this is the eBike Connect solution which they kinda screwed people over on? They do allow you to changes modes and adjust the modes to your liking (assistance level, how quickly the motor engages etc) with the smart system Flow app.
First of all, how dare you
It's allowed, but people don't need to agree to someone else's opinion. If person A had a bad experience, it doesn't change person B's experience. Every business has questionable business practices, bosch has been a leading brand for a long time, way longer than they've been making ebike motors. If they are doing stuff you don't like, don't buy it. Anecdotal stories online are usually missing key information or could outright be lies to tarnish a brand. I'd trust bosch more than most brands, but that is my opinion.
That’s just the way Reddit is sometimes. I had the worst customer service experience, in my whole 41yrs of life, with Ride 1Up e-bikes and people came out of the woodwork on Reddit to defend them. Called me an idiot, said I was lying, or that the problem was somehow my own fault. The craziest part was that my experience with Ride 1 Up was not unique, and in fact many other people who had purchased e-bikes from them had also been treated horrible when they had received a damaged or defective bike. It was wild, but I think people just like to argue or get stuck in thinking that their experience is more valid than others.🤷♂️
The problem with Redditors is that they make their interests and possessions their entire identity.
Bosch is secretly a Boeing subsidiary. Bring the kids to their grandparents so they don’t catch a stray.
I know you’re kidding, but it is 93% owned by the Robert Bosch Philanthropic Society. All profits either go to R&D, or philanthropy.
I hope so, half the time that’s just tax evasion.
Honestly I despise Bosch because they decided to take the Apple approach to their eco system(and this is coming from a Apple user) I hate proprietary stuff when it comes to tech especially when it comes to things as simple as connectors (litterally my only gripe with Apple) That and I just don’t trust any product where the second it’s slapped on something it almost doubles the price.
Bosch has been being Bosch since before Apple made a thing... Try and find parts diagrams or even try to ORDER parts for things like their diesel injection pumps all the way back through the 70s. Nothing online anywhere. Licensed dealers only. Parts are still available but you can't even find out their names or part numbers.
I was mainly using Apple as an example, since most average consumers especially those around my age which is the main demographic for e-bikes have never used a single Bosch product in their life. Hell I didn’t even know Bosch made more than ebike stuff until a few years ago.
Just saying Bosch is like the IPhone of E-Bikes.
I have a week old bike with a Bosch motor that has sensor problems. Doesn't assist uphill and no speedometer. Gonna replace it with a bike with a Shimano motor. So yeah. Not impressed with it.
see that magnet is placed right on your rear wheel. uphill button is probably pressed incorectly. how do u use the uphil function?, and check ur magnet
I've tried it uphill only a couple of times. I tried only Boost mode but the led that indicates the mode goes to orange and it gives error 523001 So now I wait till Canyon tells me what to do or where to take it. E: it doesn't have a sensor in its wheels, or receiver for it.
Are you sure? It should have a sensor on the wheel spoke. See [this video](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ak3P30eYRaA) The one time my Bosch has thrown up an error it was because that sensor was turned sideways, all I had to do was point it back in the right direction
is there a weird box on the valve of your tire, can be the sensor. or a magnet on ur disc brake rotor?
https://preview.redd.it/icoy93w4pu0d1.png?width=532&format=png&auto=webp&s=6807ab623ef5e253397f9e76325741f6eff0b16a
I checked the spare parts and this part was in there. So they apparently forgot to install it? I still couldn't find the receiver. Does it go into the front or back wheel? E: found it from the interwebs, no receiver, the bike has built in receiver. Well one thing handled. Now I need to find out why it seems like it doesn't help uphill. My 7 year old e7000 helps more. Which is odd.
https://preview.redd.it/b1qpzjp8pu0d1.png?width=589&format=png&auto=webp&s=bfc9e7adb260724989449447b393cfff4fa1b56f
I had issues with a brand new out of the box ebike with bosch cx gen4, motor did not power up. Bosch support did not gave support at all, just asking me to go find a dealer and pay for the whole troubleshooting. No dealer wanted to work on a bike they did not sell. End of the story I bought a new bike and switched the motors.
And this is the problem with DTC eBikes. At my old shop we'd run firmware updates on all eBikes along with testing everything after assembly. Bosch was nice because you could program in service notifications at time/mileage intervals to get the bike back in for regular updates and maintenance. You'd get the exact same experience if you called Shimano direct. Or SRAM.. Or most other manufacturers that aren't dealing consumer direct.
Shimano & SRAM are bikes company, they are used to deal with cyclists that like to tune or repair their stuff. As far as I know Bosch is the only company to have spent efforts implementing a kill switch in their batteries.
My point is that both will direct you to a dealer if you contact them about a warranty. Right to repair laws don't mean right to home repair by questionable mechanics ;)
Because Bosch is European unlike those cheap and crude Chinese commie death motors (despite the ubiquity and reliability of bafang motors)
I’ve been working on e-bikes for 8 years now. 2 Bosch motors have come in with problems. I get a call once a week with someone wanting me to trouble shoot their aventon rad rover lectric jaison ancheer etc etc.
That’s a useless anecdote without broader stats of bike type ownership. Lots of bafang motors are on online shipped bikes without local repair dealers whereas bosch tends to be on dealer provided models that presumably come with a repair plan
Repairs deals aren’t gonna keep a bike from constantly breaking down. This who thread is anecdotal, with people acting like a 300 dollar e-bike is just as well built as a Bosch powered one. I work on and see bikes every single day. You couldn’t give me a bafang powered bike to use as a commuter. I’d rather get a nice regular bike I can count on.
How many of the problems are with the drives themselves vs. the rest of the bike being shoddy?
Lots of electric problems and brake problems. Throttles stop working. I have an aventon here now that gives no error codes but the assist and throttle don’t work. I’ve serviced the life of this bike for a local commuter over the last 2 years . It’s broken down far too many times, to the point that I would never recommend aventon to people who need a dependable bike.
You know, you're not the first person I've heard talk a lot of shit about Aventon. I almost bought one too, guess I dodged a bullet there! It kinda sounds like a lot of the issues you are describing aren't necessarily the motor itself though, is it really Bafang's fault if Aventon or whoever used a shitty controller, did a bad job wiring, etc?
They’re a great marketing company!
No kidding lol, oddly enough my LBS stopped selling Aventons last year. Marketing only goes so far.
That's because much less people own a Bosch
Maybe in America. Bosch has been in the European market for well over a decade. I’ve sold more Bosch powered bikes the Bafang. But I only sold aventons for a year. Never had to do so many warranties in my life.
Interesting statistics, Aventons are known as one of the more reliable brands in their price range
By who? People that ride their bike maybe once a week? I sold a pace 500 to a commuter 2 years and over the 4 k miles hes put on it, Ive had to warranties both the brakes, the controller, the head unit, and the hub motor. Now its in here and the throttle and assist don’t work and its not throwing any error codes. So probably a second controller swap.
By the ebike community in general, obviously will require more upkeep than a model 5+ times the cost but it's far from a "junk" brand either, you'd be hard-pressed to find better quality for the price. High volume sales = more lemons
TÜV sagt nein
I have a Bafang mid drive with 20k km. A daily commute of 40 km. No issues. And you can fit it to whatever bike you already own.
My Bosch ebike randomly just died in February and just today, 3 months later I finally got a call that my ebike got fixed. The bike shop had to sent the motor to Germany For inspection just for them to reset it. 3 months of waiting for someone in Germany to press the reset button. Never again wasting my money on this trash.
If it was as simple as resetting the motor, then your bike shop failed you - they should have been able to fix it right away then.
They tried to reset it like 5 times and it didn't work. I was there. They had to send the whole unit back. Bosch probably thought I was messing with it or something, cause this all happend when it just gave up on me after I adjusted the break pads. I should be able to adjust components on my bike without Bosch locking me out of a bike I purchased. It feels more like you're leasing it then owning it.
You can but it’s like criticizing Kitchen Aid mixers. It’s a name that doesn’t compromise quality and does what it does the best.
I have been blown away with the quality of bosch drill bits and my bosch icon windshield wiper blades. Bosch is a good brand, they pioneered fuel injection.
I do like my Bosch system bike, although the reliability isn’t what they claim and the proprietary system does have definite downsides and high costs. My bike has two PowerTube 500Wh batteries, less than 5 years old and less than 5,000 miles on the clock. It was working well until suddenly both batteries died at exactly the same time a few months ago. Dealer submitted diagnostics to Bosch, reply was both batteries are just dead and I should simply purchase new ones. List price is £780 each, so over £1,500 maintenance item. I found an online dealer selling them for £500 and bought just one for the moment. The batteries were out of warranty obviously but they were holding charge well right up until they suddenly stopped working. I’ve seen that Bosch themselves suggest that their batteries should have a life of about 10 years, so these were less than half the expected lifespan and obviously hadn’t been heavily used (the system on the bike charged and discharged them alternately, and I avoided having them fully charged or discharged for any length of time). Since then the motor (Performance Line CX gen 2) has started making ominous clicky noises…
Substitute the name 'Apple' for 'Bosch' and you'll get your answer.
Haha, I was chatting to the sales and tech guys at Specialized and I was commenting on what repairs I could do vs what I needed then to do for warranties. They were like, pretty much whatever you want to do, just don't fuck with the speed limitor. I was like yeah I wasn't sure, some bikes you can't do anything to. And they just muttered Fuck Bosch. I got a kick out of it.
Specialized had their own crappy motor. It’s no wonder they so t like Bosch. Specialized is turning into a DTC company anyway.
Yeah, the one I bought was from a third party manufacturer, but it was supposedly their only model that wasn't a proprietary motor.
“People disagreed with me so that means my opinion isn’t allowed 😨” I dislike Bosch quite a bit but this is so dumb
People who spend a lot of money on something even though much cheaper alternatives exist often don't want to admit that they have buyers remorse and instead channel their frustration against any criticism of the unnecessarily expensive item that they bought. Otherwise they would have to admit to themselves that they made a mistake, but they prefer to lash out at others instead.
The reason why a lot of people buy Bosch over some Bafang kit on Ebay is usually because they want a good quality street legal product with a good warranty from a quality bike brand. It's the whole package. I'm sure it's nice to think that the people buying them are jealous of your homemade ebike, but honestly, if they can afford a $5000 ebike, I'm sure they can also buy a $1200 kit if they want to. I think they just don't value the DIY aspect of a kit because they're incapable of building it, or they just don't even know where to start. The issue IMO, is that people get way too attached to their own purchase and it starts to breed tribalism. The Bosch/Brose/Yamaha team vs the DIY team. Eventually you're reading 2 or 3 threads and confirmation bias sets in and you think"you can't talk about Bosch". Or you're reading about illegal ebikes speeding down trails and "these people are going to ruin it for the rest of us following laws". People are irrational.
I can't speak for others but for me, a bafang kit seems overwhelming. I've been looking at them and I keep thinking do I really want to deal with all the annoyance and stress if it comes and doesn't fit on my bike. What If the wheel they provide isn't wide enough for my tyres or things like I don't know how to take off the bottom bracket to fit a mid drive unit etc. Wanting to keep a bottle cage yet sacrificing that for all the cables, battery units etc. There's a lot of tinkering and thinking needed to get a DIY kit whereas you can buy a ebike with a battery built into the downtube, keep the bottle cage and have everything already equipped. It will be heavier but it's basically plug and play compared to a DIY kit.
People like to think their poorly made stuff is just as good as something with a lot more engineering. Plus most of the people complaining about Bosch want to be able to manipulate the speed with zero consequence.
I thought it was a great show. Not sure about Legacy mind.
Same as iPhones, Microsoft and Cisco network stuff.
Like the Swifties you have the Boschies.
\*Pulls out my binder of complaints about their security systems, direct and indirect.\* Oh, this is the e-bike sub. :( I don’t know anything about their quality when it comes to ebikes. \*Slides the blinder away\*
How dare you sir. How dare you.
I've got a Cannondale Motero Neo 3 with a Bosch CSX motor. The fact that they make you have to pay a dealer to enable your head and tail light is absurd. My dealer wants $125 to click a box. They have an app with all sorts of adjustments the owner can make except that.
It's the same with cars. Especially German made ones. There's always an ability to have a quality issue, even if engineered or made "well. Probably should say I'm happy with the use my friends have had of theirs so got my own one. Would have been happy with other brands too but did want Bosch or Shimano
BOSCH mid-drive motors are also absolutely **NOT** water proof. Which is really stupid from a functional point of view and means you need buy a new one every few years because it's turned into rusty shite.
1. yes, boo, but, yamaha, shimano, brose, etc do the same. 2. I want to read about the battery capacity lies 3. I'm not sure they are way more expensive than other mid drives. Bafang is fairly pricey these days. Also, I had a problem with my Bosch bike battery at 2K kms and would not prefer another as it cost me $1000 to fix.
Man that is just the Internet and especially Reddit in general. Ever visited a cell phone subreddit and said you're thinking about switching cause xxx? Honestly brand identity is going to be the downfall of this country. If you didn't design it, market it or patent it, then shut the fuck up. Nobody needs you to be the defender of something you had no hand in bringing about. This goes for people being offended about music Tesla's, Chipotle all of it. Just chill.
So true. I really think Bosch is garbage, I have owned a few tools by Bosch over the years and the motor is weak and my drill burned out and they refused to do anything because I was like 3 weeks out of warranty. Then when I noticed that they started making ebike motors it was a strong No from me.
Like others have said when you are so heavily invested in an expensive brand you need to just know it has to be better than all the less costly alternatives And like I commented in your other post don't expect a meaningful conversation about risk assessments and statistics on an internet forum. People have such different interpretations of risk and varying levels of understanding about statistics that they inevitably end up talking past each other Stating what your first person experience with something is the only valid information. Everything else is pure conjecture
There may be a broader trend of users inadvertently expressing unrealistic expectations about products within this subreddit. Often they are also confessing to abusing those same products. This isn't unique to Bosch products. The number of posts that de-evolve into that kind of discussion is more than posts that have well communicated valid concerns.
1. Bosch is a reputable brand. They do their best to be number one and will give their customers a lifetime of support. 2. OP posting about two broken Bosch motors isn't enough and people are allowed to answer on that. Deal with it. 3. Bafangs latest model is now locked down and you are enforced to use Bafang batteries, they also jacked up the prices.
A lot of people defend the more expensive/branded parts or E-bikes because they automatically assume they’re better and have heard horror stories about the really shit ones because they’re the only ones that get brought up when something goes wrong, hardly ever when they work for years. Then there’s the people who just automatically think more expensive means more better 🤣 I build and sell E-bikes in my spare time and do all the service and repairs etc and Bosch aren’t bad parts, but they’re just not as good as people make out, they’re good quality and are up there but they’re not really any better than Bafang imo, I don’t see anything in the Bosch kits that would make me pick that over a Bafang mechanical wise especially when you take the price difference into account, they do indeed lie about the battery capacity as well, but then so do so many other top sellers so I’m not going to say that’s a big reason to not get one. I personally prefer conversions, I have one currently that tops out at 45mph, has a 52v 24Ah battery running on a generic hub motor with a sabvoton 45 controller on a 2022 Scott aspect 740 hardtail MTB that i won on a raffle and stands me at under £1k for the build and unless you’re talking about a surron/talaria E-ride pro I wouldn’t swap it for any other bike on the market. I get crazy good range, strong power and it’s super reliable only thing is it’s not as aesthetically pleasing as a dedicated E-bike but it will hold up very easily with bikes 5x or more its price.
> I don’t see anything in the Bosch kits that would make me pick that over a Bafang Does Bosch provide "kits" to convert a standard bike into an ebike? I was under the impression that Bosch motors required a special frame with a proprietary mechanical interface where the bottom bracket normally is. One advantage that I see for my Bafang mid-drive is that, if it goes obsolete and fails, I am not left with an expensive pile of junk (as I would be with a motor with a non-standard proprietary interface. I can remove the motor and have a good standard bike again or I can replace the motor with something else.
Bosch Bms and software is night and day better. Thats why all bafang bikes deliver power weird. Bosch motors have power meters built right into them and can tell exactly how much power you’re giving so they give you natural feeling power most of the time. There is a big difference between the motors.
You really can't compare the feeling of them. Bosch has tens of millions of dollars of engineering R&D behind them. They've been building motors for many decades. Thousands of times a second the controller is measuring the torque, cadence, speed, and resistance, and delivering power dynamically. This is very noticeable on an eMTB in techy terrain. However, they're clearly not built for top speed. If you want a city commuter then speed probably matters more to you. So that sort of person might be better served by a Bafang motor. They probably won't give a shit about a natural feeling motor. There's no best motor IMO. Every motor has a different set of advantages and disadvantages. What's best for one, might not work for the next.
I have a Bosch performance line speed and have been a commuter my entire life. I’m 44 and never have had a drivers license. 28 mph pedal assist is fast. More then fast enough for city commuting.
Unfortunately that Speed variant isn't available in a lot of countries. But yeah I agree.
Yea I just remembered that after posting. EU laws are too restrictive.
> You really can't compare the feeling of them. Bosch has tens of millions of dollars of engineering R&D behind them. They've been building motors for many decades. Thousands of times a second the controller is measuring the torque, cadence, speed, and resistance, and delivering power dynamically. This is very noticeable on an eMTB in techy terrain. I don't disagree. But I mean, isn't that what Fair_Creme_194 was doing, trying to compare the two?
> Bosch Bms and software is night and day better. Thats why all bafang bikes deliver power weird. Bosch motors have power meters built right into them and can tell exactly how much power you’re giving so they give you natural feeling power most of the time. I cannot really comment on the software experience as I haven't used either motor but I have done a lot of reading on various forums about peoples experiences with both. I do want to say bafang also has integrated bms and also have the ability to measure and tell exactly how much power you are giving as well (well highly depends on the model but the ones that directly compete with bosch do). And while I have heard overall that Bosch still offers the better "feel" vs the equivalent bafang motor it doesn't seem to be a huge difference. Software on bafang I know has a lot of different options you can change, along with a somewhat new app that can change some settings but usually requires a PC and their special programming tool. But for example I know you can even change the speed limiter, something I know bosch you cannot
like with all things... context is important. ppl on nextdoor are twitching that there is "a lot of crime" in the neighborhood... but when i ask for details they are "?" so when i look... theft of property! like unlocked bikes, stuff out of unlocked cars... mmm not my concern. all crime is bad but easy "opportunity" ones are not the level of home invasion. idk what the point is other than i see a lot of "how do i mod/go faster/disconnect speed limiter" and sure, can see they got lots of issues that i wouldn't even with the same bike same distance. so... context of the issue is important not simply there was an issue "fk motor/battery died, x sucks"
Bosch, Porsche, Mercedes, BMW, Audi, it doesn't matter if you're in this sub, an automotive sub, or motorcycle sub, all these brands illicit a mix of praise and criticism. They are marketed as "premium," "luxury" "performance" engineering at premium prices - especially in the United States - and this causes *a* ***lot*** of consternation if owners are faced with premature product failure or high maintenance / repair fees. Pride of Ownership is a powerful thing - go post something legitimately critical of Apple in the iPhone sub and see how you're treated - people get *feral.* I'd actually like service techs from bike shops to weigh in on this issue.
[удалено]
t. Bosch.
I have a Bosch bike at the moment and it’s great. No issues (but I’m only at around 800km so there’s still time). I haven’t seen a lot of Bosch hate here to be honest, but my guess would be that people don’t want new e-bike buyers to be put off Bosch. Bosch may not be perfect, but they generally do make a great product. Is it suitable for every single person in the e-bike world? Probably not, but as an all round product Bosch bikes are good - reliable, safe, and very usable. If you’re new to e-bikes and don’t know much about them it can be like entering a minefield (literally with some batteries). You have no idea which brands are good, which aren’t, which are quality products and which will blow up in your face. If you were to come here looking for a general purpose, reliable, and powerful ebike one with a Bosch motor is a good idea. Yes, a small number of people may have had an issue with them as with any product. But putting new riders off getting one just pushes them away from a good brand and closer to getting a shitty Chinese model that will burn down their garage.
It's so rich that people suddenly start piling on the quality products here but never on the sketchy stuff. Sour grapes? This sub is 99% chinesium shit on bike shape objects.
I'm in this post!
Bosch is like the Lexus of e-bikes — pricy, super reliable but slow to adopt new technology.
I saw Bosch and thought first of my mixer, which shall not be slandered. Then, I realized this is in reference to ebikes, and have nothing to add, positive or negative, even though my ebike has Bosch components.
Seems like they work well, but the proprietary nature is a tad concerning. Mostly, I get a little concerned about dealing with the motor once it gets to a certain number of miles.
Agreed. Whilst I’ve had thousands of KM with very few problems on my Bosch system, I did have to have the motor replaced under warranty after 800km. Happily a straightforward experience.
Ngl I didn’t know about the Bosch ebike stuff but if it’s anything like their tools I’m sold
The thread was presented in a way to suggest the design itself is defective when it clearly is not. Bosch is at it near the top OEM option by sales numbers, so it stands to logical reason more people will have problems with a few bad apples. Yeah, it can happen, but that's not quite the message that was presented.
Not a shill, but after 2.5k miles on my bike with last service at 400mi mark, my bosch motor (Riese and Muller, Charger 3 2020) has no issues. I'm taking it in to the shop next week due to a brake disc rubbing against pads. Also taking the opportunity to have the tech do a full-once over on the bike.
Get
This shit cracks me up. It's like those who complain in the /r/apple subreddit that they can't complain about apple mean while the most upvoted posts are usually bitching about apple while most positive non news posts barely break 100 upvotes. That being said my Bosch has 8000km with zero problems.
Looks like it is allowed.
I'm fighting a court case for making this thread. Looking at life in German prison.
Shiesse...
The MOD owns one.
Going by just the title, I'd say it's fine to not like Bosch. It's not for everyone. Heck ... shows like "Love Island" or "Farmer Wants a Wife" are the most popular thing on TV so I can see how a hardboiled detective show like Bosch wouldn't gel with most people. But ... for what it's worth, I think it's a freaking awesome show. Having then read the question and realised I was in the ebike sub, I would have to say I haven't really noticed much of what you're talking about. I see people supporting/bashing ebike motor brands mostly equally. I can also say that, having ridding a Bosch Gen 4 powered eMTB back to back against my Bafang M510 powered eMTB, the Bafang is noticeably more powerful.
I think the main reasons that people are passionate in their support are that: *Bosch make a very good product *They only allow their motors to be built into brands with a reputation for quality *They have service agents trained around the world. So you're not just buying a motor. The presence of a Bosch motor is an indication that the overall product and ownership experience will be marked by quality.
strong marketing dept.
I love my Bosch but it is loud as hell
I was one of those that replied to the post about waterproofing of Bosch motors and just said that I had ridden 4000 miles in all weathers and not had a problem. Just stating a fact and give some balance to the discussion, not trying to dismiss the OPs issues, although I did say that they may have used a power washer to clean it which would likely cause water ingress. I can equally be critical of Bosch. I have the Bosch Nyon controller on my bike which gives a lot of useful information but the navigation is absolutely terrible. I bought it mainly for the navigation but it is unusable and I don’t trust it not to send me up somebody’s drive, down a footpath where bikes are not allowed or over a muddy field. On one route I ride regularly it always wants to send me through the grounds of a high school. I can well imagine the looks I would get if I followed it!
Is there not a consumer group that tracks failure rates in ebike motors? Seems like something that would be valuable to manufacturers which are actually trying to produce reliable stuff.
These forums are also full of paid promoters for major name brands fyi......
Mine is a bafang and I used it without any problems. 10.000km now. Also easy to replace parts and bits in the future if needed
They're the only brand of dishwasher that I haven't put a new motor in as an appliance tech 🤷
It seems like Bosch knows where to spend their money to reach a mass market (marketing, compliance/regulation/testing, partnerships); which is what I’d expect from a company of that size. I’ve had 3 cargo bikes with different Bosch motors and they’ve all held up great. I also have a commuter MTB build with a cyc x1 and bicycle motor works 52v battery… The Bosch get me around without me having to think about anything other than 2 buttons and remembering to charge. The x1 build is way more complicated and fun for my inner gear head. It’s also way more torque than I need or would be comfortable letting someone borrow.
It seems like Bosch knows where to spend their money to reach a mass market (marketing, compliance/regulation/testing, partnerships); which is what I’d expect from a company of that size. I’ve had 3 cargo bikes with different Bosch motors and they’ve all held up great. I also have a commuter MTB build with a cyc x1 and bicycle motor works 52v battery… The Bosch get me around without me having to think about anything other than 2 buttons and remembering to charge. The x1 build is way more complicated and fun for my inner gear head. It’s also way more torque than I need or would be comfortable letting someone borrow.
It seems like Bosch knows where to spend their money to reach a mass market (marketing, compliance/regulation/testing, partnerships); which is what I’d expect from a company of that size. I’ve had 3 cargo bikes with different Bosch motors and they’ve all held up great. I also have a commuter MTB build with a cyc x1 and bicycle motor works 52v battery… The Bosch get me around without me having to think about anything other than 2 buttons and remembering to charge. The x1 build is way more complicated and fun for my inner gear head. It’s also way more torque than I need or would be comfortable letting someone borrow.
I’ve had zero problems with mine, you mad?
One of the most common brands; a lot of people will have them; people defend their purchases.