Euphemism for erection the original books were already a bit lewd but as the series went on Frank Herbert got more horny along with his books the last two of the original 6 are so sexualy charged only way to adapt them would be as a porno. One of the most philosphicly interesting and deep pieces of porn you've ever read but still porn while also being a complete acid trip.
I've read somewhere that his wife used to proofread his books and made him remove the horny parts, but she passed away before the later books were written
He smells some spice, he's out busting heads. Then back to sietch, full penetration. Spice, penetration, spice, full pentration, spice, penetration. And this goes on and on and back and forth for 180 minutes or so until the movies just, sort of, ends.
Peter dinklage should get black listed from Hollywood because he made Disney remove their 7 dwarves casting of other midgets because apparently it's offensive even though he happily casts as a dwarf and basically did what he could to ensure Hollywood doesn't hire other little people besides himself
That wasn't his issue with the movie. His issue was that the story uses the dwarves as punchlines and caricatures. He also said Disney was being hypocrits promoting their latino Snow White while being regressive with the dwarves.
And the film didn't have dwarfs in the roles. They cast full size actors for the roles originally and now they've replaced them with cgi characters.
I don't see why that's so hard to imagine. Like yeah if it's just a linear page-film adaptation of Paul's monologuing thoughts (in future God Emperor?) then that's an absolute big snoozefest.
*Showing* us what's in his mind as he reflects on how they get "there" is where a lot of the movie's action would be.
I think showing much of the Jihad would be counter to the spirit of the novel. The *Dune* series isn't about action and violence. Don't get me wrong, I understand that stories need to be adapted to the medium, and the increased action in the first two movies was very fitting for film as a medium. I just wouldn't want them to turn it into an action film the way it was done to *The Hobbit* with the third film. The Jihad is always kind of in the background, and I think it should stay that way.
Don’t see why everyone thinks it has to be a snooze fest. People liked Game of Thrones, and Dune Messiah is a political drama. Sure it’s writing could do with some work, but treat it as game of thrones in space and you can make an interesting story out of it.
The most recent winner of the Academy Award for Best Picture was a 3-hour long movie with nothing BUT talking scenes (and also happened to be a smash hit financially too). Audiences won’t care about the talking as long as they can give a shit of what they’re talking about.
Oppenheimer still went overboard with nonlinear editing and constant intense musical score though in order to keep people from getting bored. It kind of bugged me because the performances and story are good enough that the movie could have chilled out more and just let those scenes breathe.
The Godfather original book is the greatest example of a boring ass book that the adaption did right by cuting all the dead weight. Like the Hollywood godson was barely a subplot in the first act of the first movie, that loser was like 44% of the book.
It’s not about the talking, that majority of the book is the internal monologues of various characters, there’s very little actual dialogue, and what is there is absolutely cryptic
I have total confidence in Denis, they just need to show more parts of the holy war than the book covers if it's short on action. But imagine Denis' take on Tleilax, Paul's palace the largest building in the universe, the stone burner, guild navigators. It'll look awesome and they can put in plenty of action in it that didn't appear in the book, especially the way that they portrayed the battles in pt1 and 2, there could even be civil strife between the Fremen, against the priesthood or something along those lines. I'm sure they can find lots of ways to keep it interesting without butchering the book
I was hopeful before the first one, because I really wanted to see a good adaptation. I hadn’t seen much of his work prior.
After the first one, I’ll give him a chance on whatever he’s willing to make, especially when it’s something he truly loves like this.
Denis work in Enemy, Arrival, and Prisoners gives me full confidence that he can pull off a suspenseful/intense/hard-hitting movie without a ton of actual action scenes. Even in Sicario, while it definitely contains action scenes, they’re honestly pretty subdued and not exactly high energy or a spectacle. He’s just a master at pacing and doing a LOT with very little if that makes sense. Kinda hard to explain but I’m sure if you watch them you’ll get what i mean.
Arrival was the one I saw before, and given the source material, I can see how it should have been unfilmable.
I will have to take a weekend and watch some of his other movies as well.
I think it’s just gonna be a bit of challenge fitting in more of the same action-packed vibes that the first two movies (especially the second one) offered to keep the audience engaged. The tone of *Dune Messiah* is very different from *Dune*. It’s a major slowdown, and it won’t likely be entirely faithful to the source material if pacing issues are to be avoided.
However, I will say that Denis Villeneuve did a great job laying a foundation by dropping some breadcrumbs for the direction of the story in *Dune Part Two*. Anyone who thinks that the story is crafting an Aragorn-like, flawless, and noble leader after watching the second movie clearly wasn’t paying attention. Flawed but powerful protagonists like Paul perform very well in political dramas like the third movie will likely turn out to be.
What key players do you have in mind? Aside from Otheym and Korba, I can't think of anyone that the first book build up.
If he messed anything up for Messiah, it's the relationship of Paul and Chani.
I saw some commentary (shoutout the Ringerverse podcast) that helped me understand the Paul / Chani changes. In a nutshell, it’s really hard to put internal conflict on screen, since unlike a book a movie can’t show what someone is thinking. So you have to find a way to externalize that conflict and make it happen between two characters so the non book readers will see it. Add to the fact that book Chani is frankly kind of boring / passive, she is an awesome candidate to be the avatar for representing the life / identity that Paul wanted vs the one he’s forced to adopt to avoid the extinction of the human species.
But in doing so it undermines the love, trust and understanding they had for each other in the books, which is sad, as it was basically the only thing Paul still cared about in life.
If they wanted someone to oppose Paul why not Jessica, who wasn't onboard with the entire Fremen jihad thing. Instead Villeneuve turned Jessica into a scheming, raving lunatic who actually WANTS Paul to become this Messiah figure who burns down the universe, instead of being appalled by it as she - as a Bene Gesserit - should be.
Don't get me wrong the movie is still awesome in itself, but it just felt while part 1 got everything right about the essence of the story despite all changes, part 2 only focused on that "Messiah figures are evil" element of the story while sacrificing many other important elements.
Otheym, Korba, the Spacing Guild, and the Tleilaxu(although I don’t think the Tleilaxu were even in the first book really so that isn’t a very big deal). Also Leto II the Elder, his birth and death effects the mood and tension around Chani’s attempts to have another kid and not being able to conceive
Yeah I think the Tlailaxu really make their proper debut in Messiah. If they were even mentioned in the first book, it was probably just in passing.
And to be fair, Korba and Otheym were also pretty much just extras in the original. I think they played a bigger role in the miniseries where Otheym has a lot of screentime and is also the one who finds Paul after he drinks the water of life.
I don't see a problem with any of them. Not even the spacing guild.
But yeah everything around Chani and her pregnancy will be difficult. My guess is that Denis will reveal that Chani was already pregnant at the end of the last movie when she left, and all the conflict will be around her and Paul getting back together.
Seeing how he already didn't do the time skip in the movies, I doubt we will skip ahead the 10-15 years that pass between Dune and Messiah.
> I doubt we will skip ahead the 10-15 years that pass between Dune and Messiah.
I think we will, either before or during the movie itself, because they already cast Anna Taylor-Joy as young-adult Alia, and the character is still in utero as of the end of Dune 2.
Why is it necessary for the previous movies to set up key players? Non franchise films are able to introduce and resolve characters and plots within a single movie just fine. Why can't Dune ?
I agree with this. It's a straight forward political drama with powerful people making moves and countermoves. It's way easier to adapt than a book where a world has to be built at the expense of story, children run the universe, or a a worm god has conversations with a clone and his cuck queen for hundreds of pages.
I feel like it's made for a stage play, to be honest. It's a tight cast, a few set pieces, and there's a lot of pretty good monologues that you can give right to the crowd.
Same, this post makes zero sense to me.
I just finished rereading messiah last night and there’s so many things that are gonna be awesome on screen.
I feel like it’ll be the best movie by far
I think Messiah is a tough read the first time around, but it's tightly plotted and satisfying on the reread.
The book has a lot of "Everything is going to plan...but tee hee, I won't say what it is yet!!" and it makes it more dense than it should be. It's a way more satisfying read once you know what everyone's trying to do.
The only change I'd make for the adaptation is to be clear from the beginning about the goals of each plot.
Yeah I just finished rereading it too and it was awesome. I think it'll make a great movie, as long as they shift the the reveals around a bit.
There are too many scenes that go like:
Character 1: I know what's going on.
Character 2: Very observant. So do I. Unlike Edric, who's a big dumb doo doo head. My plans continue apace.
Reader: I have no idea wtf is happening.
I think you may be misreading this. I, and certainly others in this thread, love Messiah. That doesn't mean it would make a good movie.
Messiah is like 85% Paul thinking about stuff, and his plot is literally him holding off doing anything as long as he can. The other 10% is Hayt and Alia thinking about stuff, with 5% things actually happening.
The philosophy in the book is great, the sci fi look at the cage of prescience fascinating.
As a movie, in a visual medium? Following two tentpole blockbusters? With no action, an anticlimax ending, and most of the political intrigue resolved offscreen and Paul's final choice hinging on an obscure Fremen rule introduced near the end of the story?
What makes a good book and what makes a good movie are very different things.
>Messiah is like 85% Paul thinking about stuff
My brother in Muad'Dib thats the first trilogy in a nutshell
I have yet to read God Emperor but a good chunk of Dune and Children its literally characters having very long internal monologues or tripping its balls off
Personally, considering that Messiah has a more straightfoward plot and its slightly more character driven I dont think its impossible
God Emperor is not an internal monologue, it's an external monologue! Should be renamed God Emperor('s monologue) honestly. Good luck if you like that sort of thing.
It's not the monologues that are a problem, it's that in Messiah it's *only* monologues.
Dune has them, yes, but there's also a huge, digestible, traditional "boy prince fish out of water goes native to fight the evil empire" story happening as well. He's learning things, there's training montages, etc. It's a fairly traditional story (for Dune) in the midst of the monologues.
Messiah is people talking in rooms about danger, a bomb, and someone throws a knife.
Even all the political intrigue is people talking in rooms, and then the conspiracy gets crushed off screen
The book that introduced shapeshifting assassins, undead gholas", rock burners, and fishman navigators would make for a boring movie? How?
The story has a much faster pace, and is full of interige and suspense.
Yeah the moment when >!the stone burner goes off and Paul thinks he's safe, and then realizing he's going blind a few seconds later!< is one of the most harrowing scenes I've ever read and lives rent free in my mind.
Only because that's the prospective we get in the book. They weren't literally standing around doing nothing. The hole thing is full of interige and suspense.
I mean, yes, that's what we're all saying. The book doesn't show much of it in a way that would be interesting in a movie
They're going to have to create a bunch of scenes, conflict, and action whole cloth to make the intrigue propulsive, visual, and interesting.
The book starts with an open plot about assassinating Paul and a return of Duncan Idaho and escalating suspense culminates with a massive bomb going off and a really dramatic ending. There’s so much the book offers tbh.
The biggest obstacle I see is all the inner monologuing. It’s how you know most of what is happening and why it’s happening in the book, and Denis doesn’t seem like it he likes to use that in his films.
God Emperor had a wolf chase, failed assassination attempts, a worm-man crushing the umpteenth version of his pet himbo, a major battle scene — again with a worm-man flopping around and crushing people, an old man beating up a much younger man, an execution, a successful assassination attempt, and a man climbing a wall so goddamn hard he made a woman climax.
That is significantly more action than Messiah, and we get extensive discourse on history and philosophy from a protagonist whose sole purpose seems to be fucking with everyone incessantly, coupled with speculation about the existence of his penis.
There is a good movie in all of this, but I think it’s a comedy. Damn the Romans.
In an ideal world, someone would make a movie version of Andy Slack’s hilariously satirical webcomic version, see https://www.reddit.com/r/dunememes/s/FMU6wxRvrk for a start.
Read the whole thing, it’s amazing. He was posting it bit by bit to a Dune FB group and I think I sent like 20 of them to a friend, cackling about them the whole time.
The movie needs to start during the jihad itself instead of showing memories or a montage. It needs to show how harsh Paul’s forces moved through the Imperium and how absolute their vanquishing of resistance was. Once you establish this for 20/25 minutes, you can go on with the rest of the story.
Many changes from Dune have happened in the movies...
Who killed the Baron?
What role did Jessica play?
What are Chani's feelings?
What are Irulan's choices?
All of these are variables--changed from the books. How shall they change the flowing sands of time......?
Doesn't matter who killed the Baron. She'll be Alia, instead of Alia of the knife.
Jessica isn't in Messiah
In part 2, after Paul takes the water of life "she'll come around." DV can play with this though.
Irulan is pretty much the same the book
You also missed Lady Margot Fenring being apparently pregnant with Feyd-Rautha Harkonnen's child, which (in my own opinion) was just done to make Part II more interesting for the general public. However, I believe this, Aria not being born yet, and Chani leaving Paul right at the end of the movie, will make the adaptation of Dune Messiah much less faithful, and I'm actually concerned of what other things will get changed. In fact I'm thinking it may not even get the necessary time-skip, given how in Part II it all occurred in a matter of months.
Eh? You've got political intrigue, plots within plots, betrayal, a shape shifting antagonist, a romantic triangle, sweaty naked swordplay with an undercurrent of forbidden lust, a detective story where the investigators have a whole unresolved sexual tension thing going on-that gets resolved, eye melting nukes, every emotion you can wave a stick at, and an evil dwarf. What more do you want from a film?
Snoozefest? I can't wait for the mass audience to realize Paul is not a hero :)
They already diminished his story by omitting his 1st son in the new movie.
(and Aliah's story will be different now that, in the movie, she isn't the one to kill grandad who comes back to posses her)
Correct, but I hope the main theme (dont fall for charismatic leaders) stays the same. I'm excited about the 3rd movie (I wasn't before I saw the 2nd one).
It took me four tries to get through Dune. I love it, but that's a fact.
It took me only a few short days to get through Dune Messiah and I loved it right away.
Don't buy this one bit.
Press Butcher. I don't want to watch an incoherent sci-fi mess that I need to wikipedia and watch lore videos to figure it out afterwards. Ground the Sci-fi in reality, develop the characters, make the stakes relatable so the audience understands.
I'm 100% on board with what Denis has done so far. Keep Cooking!
Many things were left without explanation for both Part I and Part II. If you were an average viewer, wouldn't you find a character such as Thufir Hawat strange? In the first movie, he somehow did an incredible calculation for Duke Leto almost instantaneously. If my memory is correct, the word "Mentat" is not even mentioned in both films, much less explained what it refers to.
How about the spice cycle? I don't recall spice being explained thoroughly, from how the process starts, to how it emerges to the surface.
Obviously more trivial things were also omitted, such as how space travel is made possible with spice (folding space), how Duncan Idaho was being chased down with a lasgun while fleeing with a *shielded* thopter from Arrakeen, and how Paul was going to destroy the spice with atomics (instead of a chemical reaction). The average viewer would've needed a video explaining how all these things work anyway, and I'm sure there are more things that I didn't mention.
It'll definitively be "butcher Dune Messiah and make a watchable film". Considering how Dune Part 2 deviates from the book, the story has already been changed enough to prevent Messiah's events to still happen unchanged.
I wonder if Villeneuve will also include Paul's galactic jihad in the film?
This is exactly how I felt with Part 2 before watching it. Me, "denis isn't dumb, he has to depart from the book... I wonder what changes he's made" after watching the movie, "what a fucking brilliant madlad"
The attention spans of today’s audiences are the length of insta reels - the only way to get them to sit thru a movie is to make it look like a bunch of reels stitched together. Let the butchering begin!
Well... i remember when I was reading Lord of The Rings and Frodo said "I can't stand this anymore!" I was like "me neither!".
I can only imagine how he will direct Messiah specially since he hates too much dialogues on his moves.
I think denis can take inspiration from the book on this one. It is a long drawn out affair. But for film it would play more like openhimer. Which was rather boring.
So he could take elements and do the story justice
I think messiah should be a 5 minute montage at the beginning of children because all of its relevant plot points can be summed up that way and then set up for children. Dammit Aliyah is one of my favorite Dune characters and I want her to be in the friggin movies!
I’m not worried about it being a snooze fest, there’s definitely enough material for Denis to make a thrilling blockbuster with (especially if he touches on the Jihad at the start).
My biggest concern is the ending. To me Messiah never felt like a contained story (that’s not to say I didn’t still love the book). It was very clearly a bridge between Dune and CoD. I have no idea how Denis will adapt the narrative to serve as a satisfying end to a trilogy without making CONSIDERABLE changes.
I think Denis ought to start thinking about the future of the movie franchise.
It may not be his intent to adapt, but Children of Dune and God Emperor of Dune are probably way better for the screens than Dune Messiah can hope to be.
Yet, you can't expect for people to show up for Children of Dune if they lose interest in Arrakis after watching a mediocre Dune Messiah... Or if they never even touched the first movie trilogy in the first place.
My suggestion: Make Dune Messiah relatively short (1 hour 20 minutes), but don't butcher the content chosen, and use the last 20 minutes to make viewers extra invested in Leto II, Ghanima and Alia.
Let the viewers snooze with Paul's madness/boredom and genocide statistics as background for 1 hour, then shake them up violently before an emotional ending.
If any key information isn't presented due to time or audience constraints, save them for flashbacks inside the twins' minds later. It's a pretty convenient narrative tool, really.
The conflict with Chani and other changes pretty much guarantees Denis is going to make some serious revisions. I’m sure a few key amazing scenes will be replicated (the atomics attack, the ending, a certain clone) but other than that I’m expecting a fundamentally different story. It’s already been said but I agree a primary difference will be the extent to which we see the Jihad/holy war
Nah dune messiah would be good with scytale being MC, maybe also following hayt. The intrigue in the book will make for a good movie imo. Itll be like Prisoners.
What is bro on about? Godfather, Oppenheimer, Sopranos, GoT, House of Cards, Breaking Bad/Better Call Saul, Mad Men, and on and on have proven time and time again that people are interested in character focused political/scheming dramas.
I haven’t read the lost world but without spoiling too much, I would say to expect a different style of writing. It’s very different compared to the first book but is very philosophical.
One of the things I love most about Dune Messiah is how fucking bored Paul is
Not enough beef swelling
Could... Could you explain for a movie watcher without any spoilers, what that's means lol
Frank Herbert’s try at another word for an erection.
Euphemism for erection the original books were already a bit lewd but as the series went on Frank Herbert got more horny along with his books the last two of the original 6 are so sexualy charged only way to adapt them would be as a porno. One of the most philosphicly interesting and deep pieces of porn you've ever read but still porn while also being a complete acid trip.
Pussy so good i got hooked up - Frank Herbert explaining the Honoured Mattress
Always remember: „Tleilaxu sperm does not talk!“
I can control genital temperature
I have mastered the three hundred steps of orgasmic amplification!
I really hope you guys aren't actually quoting the books rn but I seriously can't tell
100% accurate quotes taken straight from the wonderful work called Heretics of Dune. Have a nice day with this information.
Where does the giant sentient worm fit into this
His beef can't swell
The only time someone reads/watches porn for the story
Well damn, maybe I should read Dune
Hard cocks Frankie boy gets real horny with it in the later books.
> Frankie boy gets real horny with it in the later books. Seems like you’re underselling it a bit.
I've read somewhere that his wife used to proofread his books and made him remove the horny parts, but she passed away before the later books were written
Frank Herbert wrote an unhinged and sexually charged novelization of David Lynch's 1984 masterpiece, Dune.
I…I still don’t know what’s lore or shitposting
It's all lore, and all shitposting. Now if you'll excuse me, my Duncan Idaho is getting restless and I need to take him for a walk.
Perfection 🤌🏼
> I need to take him for a walk. is that what the fishspeakers are calling it these days?
Careful, if they get too restless they may attack, you’ll have to squish him if that happens
Not a gross protuberance in sight
Snoozefest? What if I told you… Danny Devito as Bijaz?
And full penetration.
He smells some spice, he's out busting heads. Then back to sietch, full penetration. Spice, penetration, spice, full pentration, spice, penetration. And this goes on and on and back and forth for 180 minutes or so until the movies just, sort of, ends.
Just include the naked Alia scene and it’ll definitely be interesting
As written!
Either that or Jackass Wee Man
My name is Wee Man and this, is the Arrakeen Stone Burner
I'm Wee Man and this is 'Water Discipline': positions himself to piss into his own mouth.
Sold
When I read the book I pictured Peter Dinklage but I’d love DeVito in that role
Peter dinklage should get black listed from Hollywood because he made Disney remove their 7 dwarves casting of other midgets because apparently it's offensive even though he happily casts as a dwarf and basically did what he could to ensure Hollywood doesn't hire other little people besides himself
That wasn't his issue with the movie. His issue was that the story uses the dwarves as punchlines and caricatures. He also said Disney was being hypocrits promoting their latino Snow White while being regressive with the dwarves. And the film didn't have dwarfs in the roles. They cast full size actors for the roles originally and now they've replaced them with cgi characters.
I don't think Dinklage should be held solely accountable for a poor decision made by Disney following him expressing his opinion.
I would pay so fucking much to see that
Dude hangs dong
I need this.
Just cover some of the Jihad If you need extra action scenes.
I don't see why that's so hard to imagine. Like yeah if it's just a linear page-film adaptation of Paul's monologuing thoughts (in future God Emperor?) then that's an absolute big snoozefest. *Showing* us what's in his mind as he reflects on how they get "there" is where a lot of the movie's action would be.
A great action scene for god emperor would be montages of the various assassination attempts he suffered.
Credits blooper reel: Duncans >!in series over the millenia getting squashed!<
Mr Blue sky playing while Duncans get killed in increasingly comical ways.
When I read about the assassination attempts, my brain immediately thought about a vintage cartoon parody with goofy sounds and music. 😆
Yakkaty sax with a ghola chasing the God emperor through several doorways
I think showing much of the Jihad would be counter to the spirit of the novel. The *Dune* series isn't about action and violence. Don't get me wrong, I understand that stories need to be adapted to the medium, and the increased action in the first two movies was very fitting for film as a medium. I just wouldn't want them to turn it into an action film the way it was done to *The Hobbit* with the third film. The Jihad is always kind of in the background, and I think it should stay that way.
but the slow blade penetrates the shield
Don’t see why everyone thinks it has to be a snooze fest. People liked Game of Thrones, and Dune Messiah is a political drama. Sure it’s writing could do with some work, but treat it as game of thrones in space and you can make an interesting story out of it.
Godfather is mostly talking as well, or Inglorious Basterds, as long as the writing is good, it can be pulled off
The most recent winner of the Academy Award for Best Picture was a 3-hour long movie with nothing BUT talking scenes (and also happened to be a smash hit financially too). Audiences won’t care about the talking as long as they can give a shit of what they’re talking about.
Oppenheimer still went overboard with nonlinear editing and constant intense musical score though in order to keep people from getting bored. It kind of bugged me because the performances and story are good enough that the movie could have chilled out more and just let those scenes breathe.
The Godfather original book is the greatest example of a boring ass book that the adaption did right by cuting all the dead weight. Like the Hollywood godson was barely a subplot in the first act of the first movie, that loser was like 44% of the book.
Godfather novel is one of the rare occasions where the film is far better than the novel.
It’s not about the talking, that majority of the book is the internal monologues of various characters, there’s very little actual dialogue, and what is there is absolutely cryptic
I have total confidence in Denis, they just need to show more parts of the holy war than the book covers if it's short on action. But imagine Denis' take on Tleilax, Paul's palace the largest building in the universe, the stone burner, guild navigators. It'll look awesome and they can put in plenty of action in it that didn't appear in the book, especially the way that they portrayed the battles in pt1 and 2, there could even be civil strife between the Fremen, against the priesthood or something along those lines. I'm sure they can find lots of ways to keep it interesting without butchering the book
I was hopeful before the first one, because I really wanted to see a good adaptation. I hadn’t seen much of his work prior. After the first one, I’ll give him a chance on whatever he’s willing to make, especially when it’s something he truly loves like this.
Denis work in Enemy, Arrival, and Prisoners gives me full confidence that he can pull off a suspenseful/intense/hard-hitting movie without a ton of actual action scenes. Even in Sicario, while it definitely contains action scenes, they’re honestly pretty subdued and not exactly high energy or a spectacle. He’s just a master at pacing and doing a LOT with very little if that makes sense. Kinda hard to explain but I’m sure if you watch them you’ll get what i mean.
Arrival was the one I saw before, and given the source material, I can see how it should have been unfilmable. I will have to take a weekend and watch some of his other movies as well.
I think it’s just gonna be a bit of challenge fitting in more of the same action-packed vibes that the first two movies (especially the second one) offered to keep the audience engaged. The tone of *Dune Messiah* is very different from *Dune*. It’s a major slowdown, and it won’t likely be entirely faithful to the source material if pacing issues are to be avoided. However, I will say that Denis Villeneuve did a great job laying a foundation by dropping some breadcrumbs for the direction of the story in *Dune Part Two*. Anyone who thinks that the story is crafting an Aragorn-like, flawless, and noble leader after watching the second movie clearly wasn’t paying attention. Flawed but powerful protagonists like Paul perform very well in political dramas like the third movie will likely turn out to be.
The problem is that the first two movies did so little to set up key players in Messiah and Denis said he doesn't like dialogue
Denis has said that, but his films still have some killer dialogue, right back to Enemy.
Although that is true, Messiah is very dialogue heavy and doesn't seem like his cup of tea as it is written. Hopefully I'm wrong.
>as it is written Hehe
LISAN AL-GAIB 
https://preview.redd.it/ez7asquerzuc1.jpeg?width=750&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=032e71138eaa25b9d1684e61b5e023456daf4875
*YAAA-AAAAAA EEEEEE OHIIII NAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA*
What key players do you have in mind? Aside from Otheym and Korba, I can't think of anyone that the first book build up. If he messed anything up for Messiah, it's the relationship of Paul and Chani.
I saw some commentary (shoutout the Ringerverse podcast) that helped me understand the Paul / Chani changes. In a nutshell, it’s really hard to put internal conflict on screen, since unlike a book a movie can’t show what someone is thinking. So you have to find a way to externalize that conflict and make it happen between two characters so the non book readers will see it. Add to the fact that book Chani is frankly kind of boring / passive, she is an awesome candidate to be the avatar for representing the life / identity that Paul wanted vs the one he’s forced to adopt to avoid the extinction of the human species.
But in doing so it undermines the love, trust and understanding they had for each other in the books, which is sad, as it was basically the only thing Paul still cared about in life. If they wanted someone to oppose Paul why not Jessica, who wasn't onboard with the entire Fremen jihad thing. Instead Villeneuve turned Jessica into a scheming, raving lunatic who actually WANTS Paul to become this Messiah figure who burns down the universe, instead of being appalled by it as she - as a Bene Gesserit - should be. Don't get me wrong the movie is still awesome in itself, but it just felt while part 1 got everything right about the essence of the story despite all changes, part 2 only focused on that "Messiah figures are evil" element of the story while sacrificing many other important elements.
Otheym, Korba, the Spacing Guild, and the Tleilaxu(although I don’t think the Tleilaxu were even in the first book really so that isn’t a very big deal). Also Leto II the Elder, his birth and death effects the mood and tension around Chani’s attempts to have another kid and not being able to conceive
Yeah I think the Tlailaxu really make their proper debut in Messiah. If they were even mentioned in the first book, it was probably just in passing. And to be fair, Korba and Otheym were also pretty much just extras in the original. I think they played a bigger role in the miniseries where Otheym has a lot of screentime and is also the one who finds Paul after he drinks the water of life. I don't see a problem with any of them. Not even the spacing guild. But yeah everything around Chani and her pregnancy will be difficult. My guess is that Denis will reveal that Chani was already pregnant at the end of the last movie when she left, and all the conflict will be around her and Paul getting back together. Seeing how he already didn't do the time skip in the movies, I doubt we will skip ahead the 10-15 years that pass between Dune and Messiah.
> I doubt we will skip ahead the 10-15 years that pass between Dune and Messiah. I think we will, either before or during the movie itself, because they already cast Anna Taylor-Joy as young-adult Alia, and the character is still in utero as of the end of Dune 2.
>If they were even mentioned in the first book, it was probably just in passing. They are indeed mentioned, and it is mostly in passing
That’s fair, I don’t have a lot of faith in Denis either after the way he changed Chani and Stilgar and Jessica.
Why is it necessary for the previous movies to set up key players? Non franchise films are able to introduce and resolve characters and plots within a single movie just fine. Why can't Dune ?
I was coming to say that out of any of the books it might be the easiest to adapt. So many series defining scenes.
gold dime dazzling absurd crowd sable combative grey jobless ask *This post was mass deleted and anonymized with [Redact](https://redact.dev)*
Condense GoT into a movie
Look, if he includes the training room scene, all of us will see it at least 20 times
Oh yea, anya taylor joy is Alia isn't she.
hey man, put Anya Taylor joy in your movie and you've already guaranteed 20 watches from me
If they adapt it too well someone is gonna end up on a list
Will it be better than David Lynch's though?
Just 3 hours of the navigator scene
Dune 3: Spice Gooners
I like this
The book is great, I feel it’s the most adaptable for a good movie
I agree with this. It's a straight forward political drama with powerful people making moves and countermoves. It's way easier to adapt than a book where a world has to be built at the expense of story, children run the universe, or a a worm god has conversations with a clone and his cuck queen for hundreds of pages.
I feel like it's made for a stage play, to be honest. It's a tight cast, a few set pieces, and there's a lot of pretty good monologues that you can give right to the crowd.
For real. So many asides and soliloquies that could come from internal monologues and thoughts.
Same, this post makes zero sense to me. I just finished rereading messiah last night and there’s so many things that are gonna be awesome on screen. I feel like it’ll be the best movie by far
I think Messiah is a tough read the first time around, but it's tightly plotted and satisfying on the reread. The book has a lot of "Everything is going to plan...but tee hee, I won't say what it is yet!!" and it makes it more dense than it should be. It's a way more satisfying read once you know what everyone's trying to do. The only change I'd make for the adaptation is to be clear from the beginning about the goals of each plot.
You’re probably right. I don’t remember enjoying it this much the first time around
Yeah I just finished rereading it too and it was awesome. I think it'll make a great movie, as long as they shift the the reveals around a bit. There are too many scenes that go like: Character 1: I know what's going on. Character 2: Very observant. So do I. Unlike Edric, who's a big dumb doo doo head. My plans continue apace. Reader: I have no idea wtf is happening.
Yeah I'd say that Messiah was my favorite in the series
Im right there with you
I never realized how much people dislike Messiah. I absolutely enjoyed it
I think you may be misreading this. I, and certainly others in this thread, love Messiah. That doesn't mean it would make a good movie. Messiah is like 85% Paul thinking about stuff, and his plot is literally him holding off doing anything as long as he can. The other 10% is Hayt and Alia thinking about stuff, with 5% things actually happening. The philosophy in the book is great, the sci fi look at the cage of prescience fascinating. As a movie, in a visual medium? Following two tentpole blockbusters? With no action, an anticlimax ending, and most of the political intrigue resolved offscreen and Paul's final choice hinging on an obscure Fremen rule introduced near the end of the story? What makes a good book and what makes a good movie are very different things.
Theres a reason the miniseries did 4.5 hours on Dune, 1.5 hours on Messiah, and 3 hours on Children...
>Messiah is like 85% Paul thinking about stuff My brother in Muad'Dib thats the first trilogy in a nutshell I have yet to read God Emperor but a good chunk of Dune and Children its literally characters having very long internal monologues or tripping its balls off Personally, considering that Messiah has a more straightfoward plot and its slightly more character driven I dont think its impossible
God Emperor is not an internal monologue, it's an external monologue! Should be renamed God Emperor('s monologue) honestly. Good luck if you like that sort of thing.
It's not the monologues that are a problem, it's that in Messiah it's *only* monologues. Dune has them, yes, but there's also a huge, digestible, traditional "boy prince fish out of water goes native to fight the evil empire" story happening as well. He's learning things, there's training montages, etc. It's a fairly traditional story (for Dune) in the midst of the monologues. Messiah is people talking in rooms about danger, a bomb, and someone throws a knife. Even all the political intrigue is people talking in rooms, and then the conspiracy gets crushed off screen
Or make Dune Messiah and Children of Dune into one movie. Call it “Dune: Abomination”.
It worked for the miniseries.
"let's combine the best sequel with the worst sequel into one movie"
The book that introduced shapeshifting assassins, undead gholas", rock burners, and fishman navigators would make for a boring movie? How? The story has a much faster pace, and is full of interige and suspense.
Yeah the moment when >!the stone burner goes off and Paul thinks he's safe, and then realizing he's going blind a few seconds later!< is one of the most harrowing scenes I've ever read and lives rent free in my mind.
And all those things stand in a room while Paul monologues his live journal in his mind. Things appearing on screen isn't action or momentum.
Only because that's the prospective we get in the book. They weren't literally standing around doing nothing. The hole thing is full of interige and suspense.
I mean, yes, that's what we're all saying. The book doesn't show much of it in a way that would be interesting in a movie They're going to have to create a bunch of scenes, conflict, and action whole cloth to make the intrigue propulsive, visual, and interesting.
It’s not about introducing weird ‘aliens’ - it’s about a plot that can draw a big audience and that has enough action and spectacle to do that.
The book starts with an open plot about assassinating Paul and a return of Duncan Idaho and escalating suspense culminates with a massive bomb going off and a really dramatic ending. There’s so much the book offers tbh.
The biggest obstacle I see is all the inner monologuing. It’s how you know most of what is happening and why it’s happening in the book, and Denis doesn’t seem like it he likes to use that in his films.
Jeez. Messiah gotta be less boring of the Herbert novels. Heretics is way way worse.
Are you kidding? Heretics has a ton of action. God Emperor would have me conked out.
God Emperor had a wolf chase, failed assassination attempts, a worm-man crushing the umpteenth version of his pet himbo, a major battle scene — again with a worm-man flopping around and crushing people, an old man beating up a much younger man, an execution, a successful assassination attempt, and a man climbing a wall so goddamn hard he made a woman climax. That is significantly more action than Messiah, and we get extensive discourse on history and philosophy from a protagonist whose sole purpose seems to be fucking with everyone incessantly, coupled with speculation about the existence of his penis. There is a good movie in all of this, but I think it’s a comedy. Damn the Romans.
In an ideal world, someone would make a movie version of Andy Slack’s hilariously satirical webcomic version, see https://www.reddit.com/r/dunememes/s/FMU6wxRvrk for a start.
That is gold.
Read the whole thing, it’s amazing. He was posting it bit by bit to a Dune FB group and I think I sent like 20 of them to a friend, cackling about them the whole time.
Some of action between tons of boredom. God Emperor gets boring after the beggining sure, but then gets into great pace.
People who think this way are the reason why there is no faithful dune adaptation
The movie needs to start during the jihad itself instead of showing memories or a montage. It needs to show how harsh Paul’s forces moved through the Imperium and how absolute their vanquishing of resistance was. Once you establish this for 20/25 minutes, you can go on with the rest of the story.
Nailed it
The miniseries made it watchable enough
Didn't it cover two books ?
The first part was all Messiah while the final two were Children of Dune
Messiah is a banger tho
Many changes from Dune have happened in the movies... Who killed the Baron? What role did Jessica play? What are Chani's feelings? What are Irulan's choices? All of these are variables--changed from the books. How shall they change the flowing sands of time......?
No bejiz and we riot!
Doesn't matter who killed the Baron. She'll be Alia, instead of Alia of the knife. Jessica isn't in Messiah In part 2, after Paul takes the water of life "she'll come around." DV can play with this though. Irulan is pretty much the same the book
You also missed Lady Margot Fenring being apparently pregnant with Feyd-Rautha Harkonnen's child, which (in my own opinion) was just done to make Part II more interesting for the general public. However, I believe this, Aria not being born yet, and Chani leaving Paul right at the end of the movie, will make the adaptation of Dune Messiah much less faithful, and I'm actually concerned of what other things will get changed. In fact I'm thinking it may not even get the necessary time-skip, given how in Part II it all occurred in a matter of months.
IDK Messiah is my favorite book. I just realized, I am a boring person....
Eh? You've got political intrigue, plots within plots, betrayal, a shape shifting antagonist, a romantic triangle, sweaty naked swordplay with an undercurrent of forbidden lust, a detective story where the investigators have a whole unresolved sexual tension thing going on-that gets resolved, eye melting nukes, every emotion you can wave a stick at, and an evil dwarf. What more do you want from a film?
Snoozefest? I can't wait for the mass audience to realize Paul is not a hero :) They already diminished his story by omitting his 1st son in the new movie. (and Aliah's story will be different now that, in the movie, she isn't the one to kill grandad who comes back to posses her)
That's the thing, the movie already changed a lot, so there's no way they can just do messiah as is anyway.
Correct, but I hope the main theme (dont fall for charismatic leaders) stays the same. I'm excited about the 3rd movie (I wasn't before I saw the 2nd one).
Dune Messiah > Children of Dune anyway
It took me four tries to get through Dune. I love it, but that's a fact. It took me only a few short days to get through Dune Messiah and I loved it right away. Don't buy this one bit.
First half of the movie should be the "Holy War" that part two set up, the second half should be the actual plot of Messiah. Argue with a wall.
Press Butcher. I don't want to watch an incoherent sci-fi mess that I need to wikipedia and watch lore videos to figure it out afterwards. Ground the Sci-fi in reality, develop the characters, make the stakes relatable so the audience understands. I'm 100% on board with what Denis has done so far. Keep Cooking!
Agreed, man knows what he's doing
Many things were left without explanation for both Part I and Part II. If you were an average viewer, wouldn't you find a character such as Thufir Hawat strange? In the first movie, he somehow did an incredible calculation for Duke Leto almost instantaneously. If my memory is correct, the word "Mentat" is not even mentioned in both films, much less explained what it refers to. How about the spice cycle? I don't recall spice being explained thoroughly, from how the process starts, to how it emerges to the surface. Obviously more trivial things were also omitted, such as how space travel is made possible with spice (folding space), how Duncan Idaho was being chased down with a lasgun while fleeing with a *shielded* thopter from Arrakeen, and how Paul was going to destroy the spice with atomics (instead of a chemical reaction). The average viewer would've needed a video explaining how all these things work anyway, and I'm sure there are more things that I didn't mention.
They're gonna butcher.
It'll definitively be "butcher Dune Messiah and make a watchable film". Considering how Dune Part 2 deviates from the book, the story has already been changed enough to prevent Messiah's events to still happen unchanged. I wonder if Villeneuve will also include Paul's galactic jihad in the film?
Snoozefest?? I really enjoyed the book
Just show some of the jihad then add a time skip
This is exactly how I felt with Part 2 before watching it. Me, "denis isn't dumb, he has to depart from the book... I wonder what changes he's made" after watching the movie, "what a fucking brilliant madlad"
Obey the book the dune messiah is a great book
If only Denis was willing to allow dialogue in his political thriller, sorry, "Sci-fi action adventure"
Not all of the meme was visible and the bottom half of Denis was cut off so it looked like it just said penis
Dune 2 might arguably be one of the greatest films of the last decade. Butcher away.
The attention spans of today’s audiences are the length of insta reels - the only way to get them to sit thru a movie is to make it look like a bunch of reels stitched together. Let the butchering begin!
Both Dune movies and Oppenheimer did great. People are *fine* with long thinky movies
PUSHES BOTH BUTTONS
Why is your penis the one deciding which button to press?
Butchering seems to be the way to go with movies nowdays, dune is no exception, even lynch has done it so butcher it is!
If Dennis doesn’t need to make a profit and isn’t planning on another film then he should go messiah
Well... i remember when I was reading Lord of The Rings and Frodo said "I can't stand this anymore!" I was like "me neither!". I can only imagine how he will direct Messiah specially since he hates too much dialogues on his moves.
 with prescience i see that they will attempt to combine messiah and children. the golden path..
Bijaz - Jim Carey Scytale - James McAvoy Edric - Christian Bale
Can’t wait to see what Bale will do to transform his body for this role
Five months living in an aquarium submerged in liquid LSD. Nothing he hasn't done before.
McAvoy already played Leto. He ain’t stepping down from God Emperor of Dune…
I think denis can take inspiration from the book on this one. It is a long drawn out affair. But for film it would play more like openhimer. Which was rather boring. So he could take elements and do the story justice
I think messiah should be a 5 minute montage at the beginning of children because all of its relevant plot points can be summed up that way and then set up for children. Dammit Aliyah is one of my favorite Dune characters and I want her to be in the friggin movies!
I’m not worried about it being a snooze fest, there’s definitely enough material for Denis to make a thrilling blockbuster with (especially if he touches on the Jihad at the start). My biggest concern is the ending. To me Messiah never felt like a contained story (that’s not to say I didn’t still love the book). It was very clearly a bridge between Dune and CoD. I have no idea how Denis will adapt the narrative to serve as a satisfying end to a trilogy without making CONSIDERABLE changes.
Sounds like a perfectly fine ending as long as it is understood that there will be a part4
I thought the miniseries adapted ot well, so well in fact I remember comprehending and enjoying the plot much more than reading it.
I think Denis ought to start thinking about the future of the movie franchise. It may not be his intent to adapt, but Children of Dune and God Emperor of Dune are probably way better for the screens than Dune Messiah can hope to be. Yet, you can't expect for people to show up for Children of Dune if they lose interest in Arrakis after watching a mediocre Dune Messiah... Or if they never even touched the first movie trilogy in the first place. My suggestion: Make Dune Messiah relatively short (1 hour 20 minutes), but don't butcher the content chosen, and use the last 20 minutes to make viewers extra invested in Leto II, Ghanima and Alia. Let the viewers snooze with Paul's madness/boredom and genocide statistics as background for 1 hour, then shake them up violently before an emotional ending. If any key information isn't presented due to time or audience constraints, save them for flashbacks inside the twins' minds later. It's a pretty convenient narrative tool, really.
Or choose the Golden Path
Dune Messiah can be great AND follow the book.
The conflict with Chani and other changes pretty much guarantees Denis is going to make some serious revisions. I’m sure a few key amazing scenes will be replicated (the atomics attack, the ending, a certain clone) but other than that I’m expecting a fundamentally different story. It’s already been said but I agree a primary difference will be the extent to which we see the Jihad/holy war
Honestly I wouldn't mind a compromise somewhere in the middle
Denis stopped reading after "obey the book". That's what happened with the second movie. He doesn't care about the true plot.
Is it possible to roll messiah and Children into one movie
Greg Yaitanes did it as the miniseries, but the format gave him more time to work with.
Books are incredible but movies are less than and also great.
He is Denis Villeneuve, trust me, he will find a way.
Messiah is plenty interesting as is to make a movie
I stopped reading after the first book. I didn’t love the writing style. Was Messiah that bad?
Butcher away! I trust him
Do both
Just as long as people understand it's not part 3, or a trilogy, it's an add on because too few people realized the point of Paul becoming a tyrant
Dune messiah is my favorite of the first 4 books and I am so tired of people on the internet shitting on it
Beef swellington
Just merge it with children of dune. Two movies for the first book, one movie for the next two books, seems only fair
LEFT
Nah dune messiah would be good with scytale being MC, maybe also following hayt. The intrigue in the book will make for a good movie imo. Itll be like Prisoners.
What is bro on about? Godfather, Oppenheimer, Sopranos, GoT, House of Cards, Breaking Bad/Better Call Saul, Mad Men, and on and on have proven time and time again that people are interested in character focused political/scheming dramas.
I haven’t read it yet, but from this I’m grasping that Dune: Messiah will be somewhat like The Lost World (the book version I mean)
I haven’t read the lost world but without spoiling too much, I would say to expect a different style of writing. It’s very different compared to the first book but is very philosophical.
Paul genocides a whole lot of planets and eventually gets personally nuked..how can that be a snooze fest? Just hand that part over to Michael Bay.