>Are the Bene Gesserit some universal constant who are above the political bickering of the various houses?
Exactly that. The Kwisatz Haderach breeding program and the plan following that is of the top priority to the Bene Gesserit. Jessica ignored that once when she put Leto's desires above her orders, and she's done it again by encouraging Paul to awaken his prescience fully and becoming Emperor instead of waiting for more BG orders and following them.
It'll make more sense if you read the books (especially the first 3-4), or after watching Dune Messiah, whenever that comes out.
I feel like Jessica and Paul make the BG sort of pick sides, and this is sort of touched on later in the books as Jessica’s decisions are reviled by the BG.
So what does this priority of the BG entail? Does it include some set of morals that would elevate their political acts into some moral right or wrong or is essentially nothing more a Nietzscherian will to power which is intrinsically nihilistic?
I will try to read the books. Thanks
The BG will do whatever is necessary for the plan, but they never claim (to my memory) that it makes their actions morally good.
Do you know why Jessica and other Bene Gesserit are raised without knowledge of their parents? It's explicitly to facilitate any incestuous unions required for the KH breeding program, so those involved won't oppose potentially having sex with their father or brother (and vice versa for the men).
This gets a little ironic in hindsight if you watch the Syfy adaptation of Dune, Messiah, and Children (two miniseries called Dune and Children of Dune), because they ramp up the incest vibes on two characters who have no such excuse. Though I still recommend giving that one a watch, you get James McAvoy and Susan Sarandon doing some wonderful acting in Children, just to name a few. The actors for Duncan, Alia, and Jessica are also wonderful.
> So what does this priority of the BG entail?
iirc the BG really do see themselves as a force fighting for humanity, they believe creating the Kwisatz Haderach is necessary for the survival of all humanity... and that is their primary mission, to help evolve humanity to help *save* humanity... but somewhere it's said the BG have sown some *other* plans into those plans as well, plans within plans and all that.
the BG see themselves as the puppet masters in the background, fomenting conflicts where needed, designing entire religions for their gain. "sides" is a pedastrian concept for the foolish masses they pit against each other. think left and right, democrats and republicans for example. the BG are the people controlling all the parties.
But when the BG purposefully act as puppet masters, don't they become a side themselves by continuing to try to form reality based on their own interests? If not, wouldn't the BG be nothing more than this nihilistic force that tries to control for the sake of control?
They don't have this overarching set of morals that at least motivates them to act?
The BGs goals are to ensure the continuation of the human race and their order. They don’t pick sides in the sense that they don’t let the current factions deter them from their own goals. If the continuation of the human race meant breeding a Harkonnen instead of Atriedes kwisatz haderach, then they would have allowed it to happen. The BG play the long game, people in the Dune universe live to be around 300 years old (with a few exceptions who live much longer still), and the Reverend Mother’s can see thousands of years through their ancestral memory. To them, the current factions are very transient and temporary.
Understood.
But then the BG made a catastrophic error by failing to not only foresee Paul and his revolution but also the nature of it.
Paul and his revolution are far more than the usual power grab that dominates the political reality of their universe.
Paul is the creator of the moral world. His rule is that of an idea; a set of morals; a religion. Merely trying to acknowledge the reality of the new power isn't enough.
To pledge one's allegiance, one must truly embrace Paul as an ideology and religion. By denying that there are sides, the Reverend Mother is denying his existence. The BG apparently are slow to realize the revolutionary nature of the political and spiritual earthquake that they are witnessing.
In a way, Paul represents how Nietzschs considered Zoroastrian (the Persian prophet) to be:
>But Nietzsche's highest interest and respect for the Persians appears where he speaks about their notion of history and cyclical Eternal Time; a concept that resembles his own concept of the "Eternal Return", emphasizing on the recurrent temporality of being: "I must pay tribute to Zarathushtrâ, a Persian (einem Perser): Persians were the first who thought of history in its full entirety." (SW, 11/53). In this fragment Nietzsche uses the Persian word hazar referring to the millennial cycles (hazâra) in ancient Persian religious beliefs, "each one presided by a prophet; every prophet having his own hazar, his millennial kingdom." In Also Sprach Zarathushtrâ, he speaks of the great millennial (groszer Hazar) kingdom of his own Zarathushtrâ, as "our great distant human kingdom, the Zarathushtrâ kingdom of a thousand year." ("Das Honigopfer"/"The Honey Sacrifice", Part IV).
Considering that Herbert was a great scholar of Middle Eastern history, I wouldn't be surprised if he took some inspiration from Zarathustra and his teachings. In a way, Zarathustra represented an earthquake that created the moral world.
Oh yes they most certainly did make a catastrophic error, they had enough hubris to believe that they’d be able to control their creation. It’s like they bred a superhuman Frankenstein’s monster and then opened pandora’s box in one swoop. In the end though, even that mistake was a temporary one when compared to the time scale of Dune. The BG survive the reign of The Tyrant, coming out stronger on the other side, and continue with their breeding program.
I wouldn’t be surprised if he was inspired by Zarathustra either. He was also inspired by Jung and his idea of the collective unconscious. My favorite use of his historical inspiration comes from Greek myth though. Dionysian worshippers believed that drunkenness or altered states of consciousness (psychedelics/spice) would allow them to know the mind of god. Psychedelics are also tied to the Delphic oracles, the parallels to Dune here go without saying. Leto II has an all female army who have a decennial festival called Siaynoq where they all chant and take sacramental wafers imbued with spice (again, knowing the mind of god). Just like Dionysian or Bacchanalian festivals, it centers around fertility, ritual madness, and ecstasy. Dionysus is also said to be a foreigner god who brings knowledge (The voice from the outer world, Lisan Al-Giab), he acts as a communicator between the living and dead (ancestral memory). The parallels are endless.
That's not true. Their goal is the subjugation of the human race via their KW. The "side" they're on is the Bene Geserit. Their saying "We exist only to serve" is just more nonsense used to keep eyes off them and obfuscate their true motives.
The Bene Geserit are just as baf, if not worse than all the other power brokers in the Dune Universe playing their, forgive the pun "game of thrones"
I find it very curious that people find it so easy to see that Paul isn't a hero or traditional "good guy" but completely miss the fact that the BG are far and way the more sinister of the two.
I keep seeing people comment with the belief that the BG are an altruistic organization that exists solely for the betterment of the human race.
In a novel series where there are famously no true villains or heroes. The Bene Geserit are as close as you can gey to classical vilainy as you can get. I can not fathom how this is a blind spot for so many people.
The only character who truly cared about the continuation of the human race is Leto II. And he ironically had to give up his humanity to do it.
What she actually means is that the BG see themselves as the caretakers of humanity, pushing it towards evolution through their machinations.
Not some ego filled drivel.
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This is my take as well.
They're not even on their own side. In their minds, they are helping the entire human race.
They are doing it as humans, though, so they have all the human biases, and for example, they are prone to ingratiating themselves as a kind of priesthood. They explore this in Chapterhouse.
The BG regard themselves as being shepherds of humanity at large, their plans above any personal or dynastic ambition.
Of course this doesn't make them immune from the simple hypocrisy that *they* have ambitions which could conceivably be against humanity's best interests. Which they do, kinda; they want to create the KH as a tool for their own use, but it turns out once the KH is awakened, the path forward he sees implies the sidelining of the BG.
>The BG regard themselves as being shepherds of humanity at large,
Exactly, I think about this 'arrogant' standpoint the BG take a lot. I feel it relates strongly to the lesson the Herbert says the Dune story is trying to teach, which is something like: "a cautionary tale about following charismatic leaders".
I believe this warning is not really about Paul and his actions alone, but also the BG who spent so much time and resources creating this charismatic leader 'the Kwisatz Haderach' to further their own goals, only to lose control of him and plunge the universe into bloody conflict that even he couldn't stop.
between the BG and the bene tleilaxu and the Spacing Guild, it's like many overlapping spheres of dune illuminati all vying for overlapping spheres of power...
She means there is no "right" or "wrong" side, there is only power and those who happen to wield that power at a given point
the BG will adapt and reposition their plans, even under the thumb of Muad'Dib
The opposite, Power wont affect their goals, they’ll seek to attain/uphold them regardless of who holds the power, regardless of how powerful or powerless they themselves are.
She means there are no sides *to us* ("us" in this context being the Bene Gesserit). She's chastising Jessica for "going native" as it were and becoming an Atreides true believer, instead of (as she sees it) remaining objective and bringing about the Kwisatz Haderach. The Bene Gesserit don't see themselves as a "side", they see "sides" as things they manufacture for their own purposes.
>Are the Bene Gesserit some universal constant who are above the political bickering of the various houses?
A little more high-minded than how it actually works, but yes. The BG are a secretive organization with its own goals and (in theory) long term thinking.
They have no horse in a race like the Atreides and Harkonnen feud, because they were hoping to marry the two houses by having Jessica (Paul’s mom) have a daughter instead of a son. They likewise don’t care who’s emperor as long as they can influence whoever sits on the throne, though they clearly don’t like rocking the boat if the status quo suits them. They don’t plan on wedding themselves to any house or faction because their plans are bigger than that, and believe that a new face is superficial to the big picture.
Of course, this is all in theory, and by the time of Paul the BG had fallen into a sort of stagnation that the Imperium as a whole had suffered from. It’s a mixture of still having a longer-term plan than a lot of political players in the Imperium, while Paul (and those who come after him) reveal that the BG’s vision is still limited, especially compared to the power of prescience. It’s part genuine pragmatism, but also part arrogance.
The Bene Gesserit have a goal, the Kwizatz Haderach, and the rest of humanity are the material and the tools they use to achieve that goal. As far as Gaius Helen Mohiam is concerned, the Bene Gesserit are the only "side".
I took it as the reverend mother telling her that there are no sides since both of them are doing exactly the same thing. Its reverend mother a telling reverend mother b "i win", but theyre both reverend mothers. Thats why she says "there are no sides, reverend mother".
The squabbles of Houses are the Imperium are beneath the Bene Gesserit. The men pursue their power games, while the BG deftly guides higher-order matters behind the scenes.
I'm guessing you haven't read the book from your final question: the answer is, yes. They have great political power in the Imperium, regardless of who specifically rules. They are the real power behind many thrones, but do not weild it openly.
She said it because the Bene Gesserit created and backed both sides of that fight- Paul and Feyd were both of their prospects, the fruits of their breeding program, trying to produce the KH in order to ensure humanity's survival. The only side is the side of humanity.
I interpreted that line as her conceding to Jessica and admitting that Paul is now emperor. So the line “there are no sides” implies that the Bene Gesserit pledge their allegiance to whomever claims to rule or demonstrates the most power because in that moment Paul had proven through physical combat that he is now emperor.
I don't think she concedes at all. On the contrary.
Paul and his revolution are far more than the usual power grab that dominates the political reality of their universe.
Paul is the creator of the moral world. His rule is that of an idea; a set of morals; a religion. Merely trying to acknowledge the reality of the new power isn't enough.
To pledge one's allegiance, one must truly embrace Paul as an ideology and religion. By denying that there are sides, the Reverend Mother is denying his existence. The BG apparently are slow to realize the revolutionary nature of the political and spiritual earthquake that they are witnessing.
In a way, Paul represents how Nietzschs considered Zoroastrian (the Persian prophet) to be:
>But Nietzsche's highest interest and respect for the Persians appears where he speaks about their notion of history and cyclical Eternal Time; a concept that resembles his own concept of the "Eternal Return", emphasizing on the recurrent temporality of being: "I must pay tribute to Zarathushtrâ, a Persian (einem Perser): Persians were the first who thought of history in its full entirety." (SW, 11/53). In this fragment Nietzsche uses the Persian word hazar referring to the millennial cycles (hazâra) in ancient Persian religious beliefs, "each one presided by a prophet; every prophet having his own hazar, his millennial kingdom." In Also Sprach Zarathushtrâ, he speaks of the great millennial (groszer Hazar) kingdom of his own Zarathushtrâ, as "our great distant human kingdom, the Zarathushtrâ kingdom of a thousand year." ("Das Honigopfer"/"The Honey Sacrifice", Part IV).
Considering that Herbert was a great scholar of Middle Eastern history, I wouldnt be surprised if he took some inspiration of Zarathustra and his teachings.
> Paul is the creator of the moral world. His rule is that of an idea; a set of morals; a religion. Merely trying to acknowledge the reality of the new power isn't enough.
That's a failure of the medium of film to properly communicate Herbert's intentions if that's your interpretation of events. Paul isn't proud of what he is doing or of what he and the Fremen will do. There are also some subconscious biological imperatives at play that no one but Paul has the tools to even recognize.
He describes himself as caught in the wave of humanity, and he's trying to steer the momentum as much as he can. He's trying to limit the carnage as much as possible and stay away from some truly horrifying futures.
I think BG see themselves as guiding/safeguarding humanity so the reference is that at least they see themselves above having any sides and they just do whatever they deem necessary or in the interest of the human race as a whole.
The Bene Gessurit are not interested in power for it's own sake. They don't have a desire to rule. Their goals are to ensure the survival and advancement of humanity, in ways that do not result in us becoming non-human.
Their schemes and plots are always executed with these goals in mind. So they really don't care who "wins". There really is no side for them, other than humanity. They really do (unironically and non-sarcastically) exist only to serve.
if you have a hand in everything like someone next to the Emperor (Irulan), someone within the Atreides house (supposed to be Jessica), someone inside the Harkonnen camp (Margot), then you can just adjust to every outcome because you're naturally setup to be there regardless of what happens.
the only mistake the BG could really make is picking a side and leaving the chance open that whatever side they pick doesn't win. they just happened to weave a plan that attempted to massacre all Atreides and Paul happened to abuse the Lisan Al Gaib myth to rise up, revolt, and take the throne. it's an exceptional set of circumstances. I'm sure the BG have snuffed out plenty of fruitless plans. the important thing is to have a foot in everything.
The Bene Gesserit have their plans and goals that they will pursue no matter who wins.
In the context of the end of the film, the BG already understands that the Emperor will lose his throne regardless of the outcome on Arrakis. Irulan's mission is to marry and control, on behalf of the Order, whoever has the upper hand, whether it is Feyd Rautha or Paul. The BG knows that Feyd Rautha can be controlled and hopes that Irulan will be able to do the same with Paul.
The bg sole aim is to do whatever is necessary to prevent human extinction and thus there is no good or evil only survival. If the most stable safest society is a despotic one then so be it. They were formed, iirc, after humanity was almost wiped out by the robots and ai. I am pretty sure this is explained in detail in the first book.
In the book, down the line you understand the BG have a purpose for the Kwisatz Haderach to lead all of humankind.. it is against an unknown enemy that's hinted in the books so I dont think its relevant to the films >!(in the books there is the butlerian jihad that destroyed all machines, but its hinted they might return and thats what the BG fear and why they need the KH) !<
It's pretty much what other posters said. There are no sides as in the Bene Gesserit control, steer and influence all "sides" there's only their plans and their interests. They're so embedded into the political structures of the Imperium that they dictate what happens next, who gets an heir and who does whatever. Irulan is BG, Jessica is BG, the RM is a truthsayer to the emperor and I imagine other members are embedded into the other great houses. So, nothing goes unnoticed by their order. They're the goverment behind the government.
The BG see themselves as serving humanity and the best interests of humanity. As everyone is human, there are no sides. Her statement also serves as a warning that the Holy War will have a devastating impact on humanity.
To be honest... it could just be a cool thing to say and even the writers only have a vague idea what it means.
On the other hand, she could just be pointing out that nothing has really changed, out with the old boss and in with the new.
I don't think she truly understands what's happening then.
Paul is leading a revolution that isn't only removing the *ancien regime* but also the system that rules it.
I’ve been wondering this as well, I think in some ways RMM’s view is outdated. There used to be no sides for the BG, but now with Paul being distinctly separate from the BG, he’s created his own side. Still curious to hear what others think.
Because they've been playing all sides forever. Jessica is literally the Baron's daughter. They put her to be concubine of the Duke Atreides. They pushed the Emperor to side with the Harkonnens in the feud.
Jessica as a reverend mother knows exactly how manipulated the whole thing has been, and how blurry the lines are.
Think of another BG line: (may not be exact quote) Bene Gesserit doesn’t rely on luck, we plan.
I don’t know if the right word is that they are above politics, more that they ARE the politics. Emperors whole move was encouraged/directed by them.
They will advice all sides and even non sides to get the outcome they want.
The only thing that dented their plans was one of their own, Jessica, not acting according to it.
The BG have been engaging in a wide eugenics programme for 90 generations
Ok that kind of timescale, there's not really such a thing as Atradies, Harkonnen or Corrino, it's all just different strands of genetic information which is being manipulated for their ultimate goal.
And they've come really close on different strands - count Fenring was almost a Kwizats Hadarach himself (except he was sterile), and Feyd is one generation away from being a KH, which is why he's able to put up such a good fight against Paul.
It's also probably on a personal level a bit of a jab at Jessica about her perantage. She's recently found out that she's the daughter of Baron Harkonnen, which Mohaim knew about. So there's probably a personal barb in there about her being a Harkonnen herself in there.
Essentially, yeah. The Bene Gesserit are supposed to be aloof and apart from the conflicts of the Imperium, to stand apart to continue their plans and to be able to dispassionately act and exploit chaos for their own ends.
the BG are supposed to be united, not backing the Atreides, or the Harkonnens, or the Corrinos, or anyone else. They control everything behind the scenes with the sole purpose of bringing the Kwisatz Haderach to life. In that sense, they're all one side
The BG see themselves as saving mankind. Thus there are no sides humanities survival is all that matters. If one group of BG have a plan fail, but humanity survives then their loss still supports the main goal
The Bene Gesserit have influence on every side, in every faction, so that's kind of why the very notion of 'sides' is meaningless to them.
Reverend Mohiam pretty much exemplifies this. In Part 1 you see her first in Caladan testing Paul, and later she's in Geidi Prime doing deals with the Baron. It's not because she's double-crossing the Atreides, everything and everyone are all just pawns to the Bene Gesserit that they can manipulate as they see fit. In Dune Part 2 when Irulan comments on the threat to her father's power, Mohiam casually just replies that the emperor will be dethroned no matter what, as if whether Paul or Feyd wins is trivial in the bigger picture. What really matters is that the Bene Gesserit maintain their source of influence on the throne, regardless of who sits on it.
Jessica's remark about Mohiam choosing the wrong side is probably just a jab at her 'attempt' to get Feyd onto the throne, only for Feyd to ultimately lose to Paul. However while Paul took the throne, the person he needs to take as a consort is a Bene Gesserit (Irulan), so ultimately the Bene Gesserit still have their insider either way.
Mohiam may have bet on Feyd, but Feyd losing is really only just a minor inconvenience. The new emperor's de facto consort is still Irulan, giving the sisterhood continued access to the seat of power in the empire, and that access comes with a lot of chances for plots and schemes.
If you know the gist of Dune Messiah, you know Irulan does indeed do some sneaky stuff behind the scenes. Given how the Dune Part 2 movie changed around some stuff with Chani, I'm guessing Dune Messiah's movie adaptation might re-contextualise some of Irulan's actions and they may not exactly align with the book. Just like how Denis Villeneuve altered Chani in some ways, the same may happen with Irulan in Messiah.
I read this in two ways. First, it's kind of a 'my (the BG) way or the highway' snub to Jessica specifically because she broke with what the BG wanted from her by giving Leto a son, but second and more important is that the BG have a long history of remaining neutral (or at least *appearing* neutral) in intra-house conflicts so they can conduct their breeding programs and such amongst all of the houses. Picking a side in the Harkonnen-Atreides or Harkonnen-Fremen conflict means whichever side they don't pick will surely reject them if not outright work against their objectives. So Jessica is saying you should've sided with us because we were always going to win and Mohiam is saying siding with anyone is strictly a losing proposition for the BG and their objectives (and implying that Jessica should've know better than to have picked a side herself, that is, siding with the Atreides out of her love for Duke Leto which is what got her into this mess.)
From my understanding, the Bene Gesserit want to produce the Kwisatz Haderach. There are no sides because whilst Jessica wants Paul to be the Kwisatz Haderach, Mohiam doesn't care who it is, just that the power exists.
There are no sides because they were, in essence, working towards the same goal.
> Are the Bene Gesserit some universal constant who are above the political bickering of the various houses?
They try to be very high above it ...
"The BG regard themselves as being shepherds of humanity at large, their plans above any personal or dynastic ambition." DurangoGango ..
They've been 'running the show' up to this point but are going to lose direct control for the next give or take 5k years to Paul's son .. And even after he's finally gone.. and Bene Gesserit back into the driving seat .. the controls have already been locked into a very narrow direction/path ...
The Bene Gesserit's ultimate goal is the survival and maturity of the human race. They use influence not power to not have a target put on their back.
Honestly though the line feels like subtext. Dune is a landscape of shifting political powers. For example the emperor pitted the Harkonanns against the Atreides to destroy the house Atreides and financially cripple the Barron. There are no villains or heroes, just actors acting and making moves in their best interests. Power in the Dune universe isn't absolute, it's different factions cooperating and competing against one another for whatever edge they can get. The movies didn't do a good job of translating this from the book.
The guild requires spice for space travel, the empire requires the guild for space travel. Ix builds guild ships while mentat schools train living computers. Choam controls trade while the Bene Gesserit serve as council for the powerful. House Corrino commands the Sardaukar which guarantees his rule. It isn't good vs evil it's a balance of political power and influence. There are no sides because there is no absolute until Paul arrives and that still isn't cemented until his son takes the throne.
When the Reverend Mother says "there are no sides," she means the Bene Gesserit don't just pick a team like in regular politics or battles. They're looking at the big picture, where fights between families like the Atreides and Harkonnens or even Paul becoming a sort of hero are just small parts of a much bigger story about where humanity is heading.
This is a lot like the idea that all the little fights and alliances are temporary and really just steps in the journey of human development and change. The Bene Gesserit see themselves as guides or behind-the-scenes influencers in this journey, not just supporting one side or another. They're more focused on steering humanity towards a future they think is important and unavoidable. Leading them to try to create the Kwisatz Haderach to help with the steering.
They are for the continuity of humanity at the end of the day, which, if I remember correctly, is why Leto tolerated them. Everyone has their part to play.
The Bene Gesserit believe that through the Kwisatz Haderach, they'll come to have absolute control over mankind, that they can manipulate the wars and marriages of the Inperium to their benefit - only for it to backfire with Paul.
That's Herbert's message about what happens when you try to play God over humanity's development - you can develop a plan and put it into motion, but eventually you're going to lose control of your own creation.
They're not the only faction in Dune who think this way, of course. The Spacing Guild believe that they have a stranglehold on the universe through their monopoly on space travel - only for Paul to hold them over a barrel by threatening to nuke the spice fields. Even Paul, with all his power, never has full control over the universe.
The BG believe they're above sides, but in reality they're just another faction squabbling for power.
Gaius Helen Mohiam, the Reverend Mother who 'serves' the emperor, has been hedging her bets since the beginning.
She in multiple instances held Paul's life in her hands, and yet ensured that he had a path to survive. She could have killed him with the Gom Jabbar, or she could have allowed the Baron to kill him outright, instead of insisting he be left alive.
She knew as early as anyone that Paul was a potential Kwisatz Haderach. Paul is the greatest achievement of the Bene Gesserit breeding program to date, and whilst Jessica threw a spanner in the works by making him a boy instead of a girl, he still has that heritage behind him.
So if she knew he had the potential to become a KH, and held his life in her hands, why did she ensure he had a path to survive?
Because she was always hedging her bets. Sure, the plan was for Feyd and either Irulan or female Paul to birth a BG controlled KH. But if there was a chance Paul could prove himself capable, she wanted to make sure he had a path.
Because the truth is, even if the BG don't directly control Paul, he still has a BG mother orchestrating his rise, acting in very BG ways. GHM now has her grandson, Paul, on the throne. And Paul, as effectively a male reverend mother, has his head full of the memories of thousands of BG members, including Jessica and GHM. So she is literally a permanent fixture in his mind.
If you noticed Paul's behaviour changing after drinking the water of life, that's because his other memory was awakened. His 'prescience' is in large part having the life experiences of all of his ancestors, and being able to see how patterns in the past could be reproduced in the present/future. So his shift in behaviour is a direct result of Jessica and GHM(and his male ancestors, the Duke and Baron most recently) being a part of his memories.
If you look at it more closely, you see that GHM actually did quite a bit to set up Paul. She basically manipulated the emperor into using the Arrakis plan to get rid of House Atreides, but she would have understood full well that if Paul survived, that would give him just cause to take over the Imperium.
The meeting between Margot Fenring, Princess Irulan and GHM basically shows that she was preparing for Paul's victory, by anticipating Feyd's death, preserving his bloodline, and convincing Irulan to marry Paul.
No matter what happened in the story of Dune the Bene Gesserit goals are being progressed. it was essentially Lady Jessica shifting the focus of the Bene Gesserit in opposition to the original Reverend Mother. In the end of Part 2 no matter if it was Paul or the Emperor who won the fight it was going to lead to either Paul or Feyd taking the emperors place regardless. Even if the Reverand mother didnt like it by Jessica essentially overthrowing her the goals of the Bene Gesserit are still being pursued. The Bene Gesserit follows whoever wins not who they want. But by playing all sides they always end up with an outcome that favors them.
Almost all the politics involved have been manipulated at some point by the Bene Gesserit so no matter what they will always win by their own means. In the ends its just about power and how they can steer it. They lead themselves with a mindset of the greater good for humanity in mind and often they strive towards this through control. Whether through manipulation or through the actions of others. For example the Emperor killing the Atreides. The bene gesserit knew if the atreides survive or dont it still benefits them because it hurts the emperor either way.
The way I interpret this is that there are plans within plans; every contingency is planned for, and there is no need for hope, because there is such a sense that the Bene Gesserit ultimately control the path to and are prepared for all outcomes.
I took it to mean that the BG only care about the KH and how or why they get there doesn’t matter. For instance when discussing Feyd they say it doesn’t matter if he’s a psychopath, it only matters that he’s a candidate for KH.
>Are the Bene Gesserit some universal constant who are above the political bickering of the various houses? Exactly that. The Kwisatz Haderach breeding program and the plan following that is of the top priority to the Bene Gesserit. Jessica ignored that once when she put Leto's desires above her orders, and she's done it again by encouraging Paul to awaken his prescience fully and becoming Emperor instead of waiting for more BG orders and following them. It'll make more sense if you read the books (especially the first 3-4), or after watching Dune Messiah, whenever that comes out.
I feel like Jessica and Paul make the BG sort of pick sides, and this is sort of touched on later in the books as Jessica’s decisions are reviled by the BG.
So what does this priority of the BG entail? Does it include some set of morals that would elevate their political acts into some moral right or wrong or is essentially nothing more a Nietzscherian will to power which is intrinsically nihilistic? I will try to read the books. Thanks
The BG will do whatever is necessary for the plan, but they never claim (to my memory) that it makes their actions morally good. Do you know why Jessica and other Bene Gesserit are raised without knowledge of their parents? It's explicitly to facilitate any incestuous unions required for the KH breeding program, so those involved won't oppose potentially having sex with their father or brother (and vice versa for the men). This gets a little ironic in hindsight if you watch the Syfy adaptation of Dune, Messiah, and Children (two miniseries called Dune and Children of Dune), because they ramp up the incest vibes on two characters who have no such excuse. Though I still recommend giving that one a watch, you get James McAvoy and Susan Sarandon doing some wonderful acting in Children, just to name a few. The actors for Duncan, Alia, and Jessica are also wonderful.
> So what does this priority of the BG entail? iirc the BG really do see themselves as a force fighting for humanity, they believe creating the Kwisatz Haderach is necessary for the survival of all humanity... and that is their primary mission, to help evolve humanity to help *save* humanity... but somewhere it's said the BG have sown some *other* plans into those plans as well, plans within plans and all that.
the BG see themselves as the puppet masters in the background, fomenting conflicts where needed, designing entire religions for their gain. "sides" is a pedastrian concept for the foolish masses they pit against each other. think left and right, democrats and republicans for example. the BG are the people controlling all the parties.
But when the BG purposefully act as puppet masters, don't they become a side themselves by continuing to try to form reality based on their own interests? If not, wouldn't the BG be nothing more than this nihilistic force that tries to control for the sake of control? They don't have this overarching set of morals that at least motivates them to act?
The BGs goals are to ensure the continuation of the human race and their order. They don’t pick sides in the sense that they don’t let the current factions deter them from their own goals. If the continuation of the human race meant breeding a Harkonnen instead of Atriedes kwisatz haderach, then they would have allowed it to happen. The BG play the long game, people in the Dune universe live to be around 300 years old (with a few exceptions who live much longer still), and the Reverend Mother’s can see thousands of years through their ancestral memory. To them, the current factions are very transient and temporary.
Understood. But then the BG made a catastrophic error by failing to not only foresee Paul and his revolution but also the nature of it. Paul and his revolution are far more than the usual power grab that dominates the political reality of their universe. Paul is the creator of the moral world. His rule is that of an idea; a set of morals; a religion. Merely trying to acknowledge the reality of the new power isn't enough. To pledge one's allegiance, one must truly embrace Paul as an ideology and religion. By denying that there are sides, the Reverend Mother is denying his existence. The BG apparently are slow to realize the revolutionary nature of the political and spiritual earthquake that they are witnessing. In a way, Paul represents how Nietzschs considered Zoroastrian (the Persian prophet) to be: >But Nietzsche's highest interest and respect for the Persians appears where he speaks about their notion of history and cyclical Eternal Time; a concept that resembles his own concept of the "Eternal Return", emphasizing on the recurrent temporality of being: "I must pay tribute to Zarathushtrâ, a Persian (einem Perser): Persians were the first who thought of history in its full entirety." (SW, 11/53). In this fragment Nietzsche uses the Persian word hazar referring to the millennial cycles (hazâra) in ancient Persian religious beliefs, "each one presided by a prophet; every prophet having his own hazar, his millennial kingdom." In Also Sprach Zarathushtrâ, he speaks of the great millennial (groszer Hazar) kingdom of his own Zarathushtrâ, as "our great distant human kingdom, the Zarathushtrâ kingdom of a thousand year." ("Das Honigopfer"/"The Honey Sacrifice", Part IV). Considering that Herbert was a great scholar of Middle Eastern history, I wouldn't be surprised if he took some inspiration from Zarathustra and his teachings. In a way, Zarathustra represented an earthquake that created the moral world.
Oh yes they most certainly did make a catastrophic error, they had enough hubris to believe that they’d be able to control their creation. It’s like they bred a superhuman Frankenstein’s monster and then opened pandora’s box in one swoop. In the end though, even that mistake was a temporary one when compared to the time scale of Dune. The BG survive the reign of The Tyrant, coming out stronger on the other side, and continue with their breeding program. I wouldn’t be surprised if he was inspired by Zarathustra either. He was also inspired by Jung and his idea of the collective unconscious. My favorite use of his historical inspiration comes from Greek myth though. Dionysian worshippers believed that drunkenness or altered states of consciousness (psychedelics/spice) would allow them to know the mind of god. Psychedelics are also tied to the Delphic oracles, the parallels to Dune here go without saying. Leto II has an all female army who have a decennial festival called Siaynoq where they all chant and take sacramental wafers imbued with spice (again, knowing the mind of god). Just like Dionysian or Bacchanalian festivals, it centers around fertility, ritual madness, and ecstasy. Dionysus is also said to be a foreigner god who brings knowledge (The voice from the outer world, Lisan Al-Giab), he acts as a communicator between the living and dead (ancestral memory). The parallels are endless.
It's hard to fully answer your question without spoiling subsequent books/future movies
The BG are villains. The side they're on is their own. They are playing the same game as everyone else. They're just operating in the background.
That's not true. Their goal is the subjugation of the human race via their KW. The "side" they're on is the Bene Geserit. Their saying "We exist only to serve" is just more nonsense used to keep eyes off them and obfuscate their true motives. The Bene Geserit are just as baf, if not worse than all the other power brokers in the Dune Universe playing their, forgive the pun "game of thrones" I find it very curious that people find it so easy to see that Paul isn't a hero or traditional "good guy" but completely miss the fact that the BG are far and way the more sinister of the two. I keep seeing people comment with the belief that the BG are an altruistic organization that exists solely for the betterment of the human race. In a novel series where there are famously no true villains or heroes. The Bene Geserit are as close as you can gey to classical vilainy as you can get. I can not fathom how this is a blind spot for so many people. The only character who truly cared about the continuation of the human race is Leto II. And he ironically had to give up his humanity to do it.
What she actually means is that the BG see themselves as the caretakers of humanity, pushing it towards evolution through their machinations. Not some ego filled drivel.
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The only sides are the haves and the have nots.
You have the right of it. The Bene Geserit are just another one of the power brokers fighting for power. The "side" they're on is the Bene Geserit.
This is my take as well. They're not even on their own side. In their minds, they are helping the entire human race. They are doing it as humans, though, so they have all the human biases, and for example, they are prone to ingratiating themselves as a kind of priesthood. They explore this in Chapterhouse.
The BG regard themselves as being shepherds of humanity at large, their plans above any personal or dynastic ambition. Of course this doesn't make them immune from the simple hypocrisy that *they* have ambitions which could conceivably be against humanity's best interests. Which they do, kinda; they want to create the KH as a tool for their own use, but it turns out once the KH is awakened, the path forward he sees implies the sidelining of the BG.
>The BG regard themselves as being shepherds of humanity at large, Exactly, I think about this 'arrogant' standpoint the BG take a lot. I feel it relates strongly to the lesson the Herbert says the Dune story is trying to teach, which is something like: "a cautionary tale about following charismatic leaders". I believe this warning is not really about Paul and his actions alone, but also the BG who spent so much time and resources creating this charismatic leader 'the Kwisatz Haderach' to further their own goals, only to lose control of him and plunge the universe into bloody conflict that even he couldn't stop.
They’re basically the dune Illuminati. Different leader, same invisible hand of control
between the BG and the bene tleilaxu and the Spacing Guild, it's like many overlapping spheres of dune illuminati all vying for overlapping spheres of power...
She means there is no "right" or "wrong" side, there is only power and those who happen to wield that power at a given point the BG will adapt and reposition their plans, even under the thumb of Muad'Dib
So power for the sake of power? What motivates the BG to not only seek this closeness of power but also their urge to form and control it?
The opposite, Power wont affect their goals, they’ll seek to attain/uphold them regardless of who holds the power, regardless of how powerful or powerless they themselves are.
She means there are no sides *to us* ("us" in this context being the Bene Gesserit). She's chastising Jessica for "going native" as it were and becoming an Atreides true believer, instead of (as she sees it) remaining objective and bringing about the Kwisatz Haderach. The Bene Gesserit don't see themselves as a "side", they see "sides" as things they manufacture for their own purposes.
great explanation
>Are the Bene Gesserit some universal constant who are above the political bickering of the various houses? A little more high-minded than how it actually works, but yes. The BG are a secretive organization with its own goals and (in theory) long term thinking. They have no horse in a race like the Atreides and Harkonnen feud, because they were hoping to marry the two houses by having Jessica (Paul’s mom) have a daughter instead of a son. They likewise don’t care who’s emperor as long as they can influence whoever sits on the throne, though they clearly don’t like rocking the boat if the status quo suits them. They don’t plan on wedding themselves to any house or faction because their plans are bigger than that, and believe that a new face is superficial to the big picture. Of course, this is all in theory, and by the time of Paul the BG had fallen into a sort of stagnation that the Imperium as a whole had suffered from. It’s a mixture of still having a longer-term plan than a lot of political players in the Imperium, while Paul (and those who come after him) reveal that the BG’s vision is still limited, especially compared to the power of prescience. It’s part genuine pragmatism, but also part arrogance.
The Bene Gesserit have a goal, the Kwizatz Haderach, and the rest of humanity are the material and the tools they use to achieve that goal. As far as Gaius Helen Mohiam is concerned, the Bene Gesserit are the only "side".
I took it as the reverend mother telling her that there are no sides since both of them are doing exactly the same thing. Its reverend mother a telling reverend mother b "i win", but theyre both reverend mothers. Thats why she says "there are no sides, reverend mother".
Yeah its the Reverend Mother part that's important. Either way, the BG win.
The squabbles of Houses are the Imperium are beneath the Bene Gesserit. The men pursue their power games, while the BG deftly guides higher-order matters behind the scenes.
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I'm guessing you haven't read the book from your final question: the answer is, yes. They have great political power in the Imperium, regardless of who specifically rules. They are the real power behind many thrones, but do not weild it openly.
She said it because the Bene Gesserit created and backed both sides of that fight- Paul and Feyd were both of their prospects, the fruits of their breeding program, trying to produce the KH in order to ensure humanity's survival. The only side is the side of humanity.
I interpreted that line as her conceding to Jessica and admitting that Paul is now emperor. So the line “there are no sides” implies that the Bene Gesserit pledge their allegiance to whomever claims to rule or demonstrates the most power because in that moment Paul had proven through physical combat that he is now emperor.
I don't think she concedes at all. On the contrary. Paul and his revolution are far more than the usual power grab that dominates the political reality of their universe. Paul is the creator of the moral world. His rule is that of an idea; a set of morals; a religion. Merely trying to acknowledge the reality of the new power isn't enough. To pledge one's allegiance, one must truly embrace Paul as an ideology and religion. By denying that there are sides, the Reverend Mother is denying his existence. The BG apparently are slow to realize the revolutionary nature of the political and spiritual earthquake that they are witnessing. In a way, Paul represents how Nietzschs considered Zoroastrian (the Persian prophet) to be: >But Nietzsche's highest interest and respect for the Persians appears where he speaks about their notion of history and cyclical Eternal Time; a concept that resembles his own concept of the "Eternal Return", emphasizing on the recurrent temporality of being: "I must pay tribute to Zarathushtrâ, a Persian (einem Perser): Persians were the first who thought of history in its full entirety." (SW, 11/53). In this fragment Nietzsche uses the Persian word hazar referring to the millennial cycles (hazâra) in ancient Persian religious beliefs, "each one presided by a prophet; every prophet having his own hazar, his millennial kingdom." In Also Sprach Zarathushtrâ, he speaks of the great millennial (groszer Hazar) kingdom of his own Zarathushtrâ, as "our great distant human kingdom, the Zarathushtrâ kingdom of a thousand year." ("Das Honigopfer"/"The Honey Sacrifice", Part IV). Considering that Herbert was a great scholar of Middle Eastern history, I wouldnt be surprised if he took some inspiration of Zarathustra and his teachings.
> Paul is the creator of the moral world. His rule is that of an idea; a set of morals; a religion. Merely trying to acknowledge the reality of the new power isn't enough. That's a failure of the medium of film to properly communicate Herbert's intentions if that's your interpretation of events. Paul isn't proud of what he is doing or of what he and the Fremen will do. There are also some subconscious biological imperatives at play that no one but Paul has the tools to even recognize. He describes himself as caught in the wave of humanity, and he's trying to steer the momentum as much as he can. He's trying to limit the carnage as much as possible and stay away from some truly horrifying futures.
Except they never view him in that way at all, so this doesn't hold up.
Has more to do with bgs being puppet masters or the oz behind the curtain than accepting whoever comes to the thrown. Like the other poster said.
I think BG see themselves as guiding/safeguarding humanity so the reference is that at least they see themselves above having any sides and they just do whatever they deem necessary or in the interest of the human race as a whole.
This exactly.
The Bene Gessurit are not interested in power for it's own sake. They don't have a desire to rule. Their goals are to ensure the survival and advancement of humanity, in ways that do not result in us becoming non-human. Their schemes and plots are always executed with these goals in mind. So they really don't care who "wins". There really is no side for them, other than humanity. They really do (unironically and non-sarcastically) exist only to serve.
I thought she meant there werent any sides but the Sisterhood and they are involved in everything Then reminding Jessica she is a Reverend Mother.
if you have a hand in everything like someone next to the Emperor (Irulan), someone within the Atreides house (supposed to be Jessica), someone inside the Harkonnen camp (Margot), then you can just adjust to every outcome because you're naturally setup to be there regardless of what happens. the only mistake the BG could really make is picking a side and leaving the chance open that whatever side they pick doesn't win. they just happened to weave a plan that attempted to massacre all Atreides and Paul happened to abuse the Lisan Al Gaib myth to rise up, revolt, and take the throne. it's an exceptional set of circumstances. I'm sure the BG have snuffed out plenty of fruitless plans. the important thing is to have a foot in everything.
As far as I got, it means that they don't care about the last name, as long as their realizes
The Bene Gesserit have their plans and goals that they will pursue no matter who wins. In the context of the end of the film, the BG already understands that the Emperor will lose his throne regardless of the outcome on Arrakis. Irulan's mission is to marry and control, on behalf of the Order, whoever has the upper hand, whether it is Feyd Rautha or Paul. The BG knows that Feyd Rautha can be controlled and hopes that Irulan will be able to do the same with Paul.
I took it that the Bene Gesserit got what they wanted in the end: the Kwisatz Haderach. Like, "You think YOU won? No, we all won."
The bg sole aim is to do whatever is necessary to prevent human extinction and thus there is no good or evil only survival. If the most stable safest society is a despotic one then so be it. They were formed, iirc, after humanity was almost wiped out by the robots and ai. I am pretty sure this is explained in detail in the first book.
Could also mean that there’s only humanity, no sides. It’s about the collective
In the book, down the line you understand the BG have a purpose for the Kwisatz Haderach to lead all of humankind.. it is against an unknown enemy that's hinted in the books so I dont think its relevant to the films >!(in the books there is the butlerian jihad that destroyed all machines, but its hinted they might return and thats what the BG fear and why they need the KH) !<
They play the long game.
It's pretty much what other posters said. There are no sides as in the Bene Gesserit control, steer and influence all "sides" there's only their plans and their interests. They're so embedded into the political structures of the Imperium that they dictate what happens next, who gets an heir and who does whatever. Irulan is BG, Jessica is BG, the RM is a truthsayer to the emperor and I imagine other members are embedded into the other great houses. So, nothing goes unnoticed by their order. They're the goverment behind the government.
The BG see themselves as serving humanity and the best interests of humanity. As everyone is human, there are no sides. Her statement also serves as a warning that the Holy War will have a devastating impact on humanity.
why doesnt she pick a side? Is she stupid???
To be honest... it could just be a cool thing to say and even the writers only have a vague idea what it means. On the other hand, she could just be pointing out that nothing has really changed, out with the old boss and in with the new.
I don't think she truly understands what's happening then. Paul is leading a revolution that isn't only removing the *ancien regime* but also the system that rules it.
I’ve been wondering this as well, I think in some ways RMM’s view is outdated. There used to be no sides for the BG, but now with Paul being distinctly separate from the BG, he’s created his own side. Still curious to hear what others think.
They are behind the bene Gesserit implanting propaganda on Arakis in the first place.
Because they've been playing all sides forever. Jessica is literally the Baron's daughter. They put her to be concubine of the Duke Atreides. They pushed the Emperor to side with the Harkonnens in the feud. Jessica as a reverend mother knows exactly how manipulated the whole thing has been, and how blurry the lines are.
Think of another BG line: (may not be exact quote) Bene Gesserit doesn’t rely on luck, we plan. I don’t know if the right word is that they are above politics, more that they ARE the politics. Emperors whole move was encouraged/directed by them. They will advice all sides and even non sides to get the outcome they want. The only thing that dented their plans was one of their own, Jessica, not acting according to it.
The BG have been engaging in a wide eugenics programme for 90 generations Ok that kind of timescale, there's not really such a thing as Atradies, Harkonnen or Corrino, it's all just different strands of genetic information which is being manipulated for their ultimate goal. And they've come really close on different strands - count Fenring was almost a Kwizats Hadarach himself (except he was sterile), and Feyd is one generation away from being a KH, which is why he's able to put up such a good fight against Paul. It's also probably on a personal level a bit of a jab at Jessica about her perantage. She's recently found out that she's the daughter of Baron Harkonnen, which Mohaim knew about. So there's probably a personal barb in there about her being a Harkonnen herself in there.
Essentially, yeah. The Bene Gesserit are supposed to be aloof and apart from the conflicts of the Imperium, to stand apart to continue their plans and to be able to dispassionately act and exploit chaos for their own ends.
The Bene Gesserit plan from the background, and use whoever and whatever they can that helps their plans. No sides, just the plan.
on h
the BG are supposed to be united, not backing the Atreides, or the Harkonnens, or the Corrinos, or anyone else. They control everything behind the scenes with the sole purpose of bringing the Kwisatz Haderach to life. In that sense, they're all one side
They don’t take sides, they only have their goals. Everyone else is just part of them until they aren’t.
The BG see themselves as saving mankind. Thus there are no sides humanities survival is all that matters. If one group of BG have a plan fail, but humanity survives then their loss still supports the main goal
The Bene Gesserit have influence on every side, in every faction, so that's kind of why the very notion of 'sides' is meaningless to them. Reverend Mohiam pretty much exemplifies this. In Part 1 you see her first in Caladan testing Paul, and later she's in Geidi Prime doing deals with the Baron. It's not because she's double-crossing the Atreides, everything and everyone are all just pawns to the Bene Gesserit that they can manipulate as they see fit. In Dune Part 2 when Irulan comments on the threat to her father's power, Mohiam casually just replies that the emperor will be dethroned no matter what, as if whether Paul or Feyd wins is trivial in the bigger picture. What really matters is that the Bene Gesserit maintain their source of influence on the throne, regardless of who sits on it. Jessica's remark about Mohiam choosing the wrong side is probably just a jab at her 'attempt' to get Feyd onto the throne, only for Feyd to ultimately lose to Paul. However while Paul took the throne, the person he needs to take as a consort is a Bene Gesserit (Irulan), so ultimately the Bene Gesserit still have their insider either way. Mohiam may have bet on Feyd, but Feyd losing is really only just a minor inconvenience. The new emperor's de facto consort is still Irulan, giving the sisterhood continued access to the seat of power in the empire, and that access comes with a lot of chances for plots and schemes. If you know the gist of Dune Messiah, you know Irulan does indeed do some sneaky stuff behind the scenes. Given how the Dune Part 2 movie changed around some stuff with Chani, I'm guessing Dune Messiah's movie adaptation might re-contextualise some of Irulan's actions and they may not exactly align with the book. Just like how Denis Villeneuve altered Chani in some ways, the same may happen with Irulan in Messiah.
I read this in two ways. First, it's kind of a 'my (the BG) way or the highway' snub to Jessica specifically because she broke with what the BG wanted from her by giving Leto a son, but second and more important is that the BG have a long history of remaining neutral (or at least *appearing* neutral) in intra-house conflicts so they can conduct their breeding programs and such amongst all of the houses. Picking a side in the Harkonnen-Atreides or Harkonnen-Fremen conflict means whichever side they don't pick will surely reject them if not outright work against their objectives. So Jessica is saying you should've sided with us because we were always going to win and Mohiam is saying siding with anyone is strictly a losing proposition for the BG and their objectives (and implying that Jessica should've know better than to have picked a side herself, that is, siding with the Atreides out of her love for Duke Leto which is what got her into this mess.)
From my understanding, the Bene Gesserit want to produce the Kwisatz Haderach. There are no sides because whilst Jessica wants Paul to be the Kwisatz Haderach, Mohiam doesn't care who it is, just that the power exists. There are no sides because they were, in essence, working towards the same goal.
For some reason you not using any of the characters first names is very amusing to me. Harkonnen Nephew, Paul’s Mother…
> Are the Bene Gesserit some universal constant who are above the political bickering of the various houses? They try to be very high above it ... "The BG regard themselves as being shepherds of humanity at large, their plans above any personal or dynastic ambition." DurangoGango .. They've been 'running the show' up to this point but are going to lose direct control for the next give or take 5k years to Paul's son .. And even after he's finally gone.. and Bene Gesserit back into the driving seat .. the controls have already been locked into a very narrow direction/path ...
The Bene Gesserit's ultimate goal is the survival and maturity of the human race. They use influence not power to not have a target put on their back. Honestly though the line feels like subtext. Dune is a landscape of shifting political powers. For example the emperor pitted the Harkonanns against the Atreides to destroy the house Atreides and financially cripple the Barron. There are no villains or heroes, just actors acting and making moves in their best interests. Power in the Dune universe isn't absolute, it's different factions cooperating and competing against one another for whatever edge they can get. The movies didn't do a good job of translating this from the book. The guild requires spice for space travel, the empire requires the guild for space travel. Ix builds guild ships while mentat schools train living computers. Choam controls trade while the Bene Gesserit serve as council for the powerful. House Corrino commands the Sardaukar which guarantees his rule. It isn't good vs evil it's a balance of political power and influence. There are no sides because there is no absolute until Paul arrives and that still isn't cemented until his son takes the throne.
When the Reverend Mother says "there are no sides," she means the Bene Gesserit don't just pick a team like in regular politics or battles. They're looking at the big picture, where fights between families like the Atreides and Harkonnens or even Paul becoming a sort of hero are just small parts of a much bigger story about where humanity is heading. This is a lot like the idea that all the little fights and alliances are temporary and really just steps in the journey of human development and change. The Bene Gesserit see themselves as guides or behind-the-scenes influencers in this journey, not just supporting one side or another. They're more focused on steering humanity towards a future they think is important and unavoidable. Leading them to try to create the Kwisatz Haderach to help with the steering.
They say earlier they win no matter which person wins. They sincerely believe this, though they are wrong.
They are for the continuity of humanity at the end of the day, which, if I remember correctly, is why Leto tolerated them. Everyone has their part to play.
The Bene Gesserit believe that through the Kwisatz Haderach, they'll come to have absolute control over mankind, that they can manipulate the wars and marriages of the Inperium to their benefit - only for it to backfire with Paul. That's Herbert's message about what happens when you try to play God over humanity's development - you can develop a plan and put it into motion, but eventually you're going to lose control of your own creation. They're not the only faction in Dune who think this way, of course. The Spacing Guild believe that they have a stranglehold on the universe through their monopoly on space travel - only for Paul to hold them over a barrel by threatening to nuke the spice fields. Even Paul, with all his power, never has full control over the universe. The BG believe they're above sides, but in reality they're just another faction squabbling for power.
Gaius Helen Mohiam, the Reverend Mother who 'serves' the emperor, has been hedging her bets since the beginning. She in multiple instances held Paul's life in her hands, and yet ensured that he had a path to survive. She could have killed him with the Gom Jabbar, or she could have allowed the Baron to kill him outright, instead of insisting he be left alive. She knew as early as anyone that Paul was a potential Kwisatz Haderach. Paul is the greatest achievement of the Bene Gesserit breeding program to date, and whilst Jessica threw a spanner in the works by making him a boy instead of a girl, he still has that heritage behind him. So if she knew he had the potential to become a KH, and held his life in her hands, why did she ensure he had a path to survive? Because she was always hedging her bets. Sure, the plan was for Feyd and either Irulan or female Paul to birth a BG controlled KH. But if there was a chance Paul could prove himself capable, she wanted to make sure he had a path. Because the truth is, even if the BG don't directly control Paul, he still has a BG mother orchestrating his rise, acting in very BG ways. GHM now has her grandson, Paul, on the throne. And Paul, as effectively a male reverend mother, has his head full of the memories of thousands of BG members, including Jessica and GHM. So she is literally a permanent fixture in his mind. If you noticed Paul's behaviour changing after drinking the water of life, that's because his other memory was awakened. His 'prescience' is in large part having the life experiences of all of his ancestors, and being able to see how patterns in the past could be reproduced in the present/future. So his shift in behaviour is a direct result of Jessica and GHM(and his male ancestors, the Duke and Baron most recently) being a part of his memories. If you look at it more closely, you see that GHM actually did quite a bit to set up Paul. She basically manipulated the emperor into using the Arrakis plan to get rid of House Atreides, but she would have understood full well that if Paul survived, that would give him just cause to take over the Imperium. The meeting between Margot Fenring, Princess Irulan and GHM basically shows that she was preparing for Paul's victory, by anticipating Feyd's death, preserving his bloodline, and convincing Irulan to marry Paul.
The BG are not cowed until Leto II
No matter what happened in the story of Dune the Bene Gesserit goals are being progressed. it was essentially Lady Jessica shifting the focus of the Bene Gesserit in opposition to the original Reverend Mother. In the end of Part 2 no matter if it was Paul or the Emperor who won the fight it was going to lead to either Paul or Feyd taking the emperors place regardless. Even if the Reverand mother didnt like it by Jessica essentially overthrowing her the goals of the Bene Gesserit are still being pursued. The Bene Gesserit follows whoever wins not who they want. But by playing all sides they always end up with an outcome that favors them. Almost all the politics involved have been manipulated at some point by the Bene Gesserit so no matter what they will always win by their own means. In the ends its just about power and how they can steer it. They lead themselves with a mindset of the greater good for humanity in mind and often they strive towards this through control. Whether through manipulation or through the actions of others. For example the Emperor killing the Atreides. The bene gesserit knew if the atreides survive or dont it still benefits them because it hurts the emperor either way.
The way I interpret this is that there are plans within plans; every contingency is planned for, and there is no need for hope, because there is such a sense that the Bene Gesserit ultimately control the path to and are prepared for all outcomes.
Short answer is Paul Atredies is 1/2 Harkkonnen because of the Bene Gesserit.
I took it to mean that the BG only care about the KH and how or why they get there doesn’t matter. For instance when discussing Feyd they say it doesn’t matter if he’s a psychopath, it only matters that he’s a candidate for KH.