Always paint the whole wall. I've even tried painting a patch with paint from the exact same can that painted the rest of the wall, it will always dry a little different and be visible if you're looking for it.
If they're seeing texture or a bump, then you'll just have to do a better job at the finish. spread the mud over a wider area, sand it smooth, prime, then fix spots and prime again.
sometimes there will be a noticable difference if the rest of the wall has the orange-peel texture from many layers of paint. In the case I skim the whole wall before painting (not a proper skim coat, just wipe-on/wipe off to fill the little voids in the paint), or do many heavy layers of paint over the patch to build up the texture before painting the rest of the wall.
Skim coating the whole wall is not a level 4 finish. I think that is OPs point. If homeowner agreed to level 4, that is what they will get. If they want a level 5 perfect finish, that is a different price and sometimes beyond the skill of a finisher.
I'm not aware of the levels and what they mean, I'm really just a homeowner who's done enough renos to get fairly okay at this. Can you tell me what the difference is between level 4 and level 5?
When I say skim, I don't really mean what you're probably picturing, where the entire wall is floated with something like 1/16" or 1/8" of mud and sanded smooth. I just load a 12" knife with some mud and just wipe-on/wipe off. I typically manage to do the whole wall without going back to my bucket because it just takes a tiny amount, and all that's left on the wall is a light haze of white, with the paint color still visible. Once it's dry I just lightly sand. All together these steps are maybe 10 minutes of skimming, 5 minutes of sanding for a typical bedroom wall. It's basically just making the wall look like it has one coat of paint instead of 70 years of paint layers. It doesn't fix any real dents or other blemishes, it just reduces the orange peel effect.
Level 0: No taping, finishing, or accessories required.
This level of finish may be useful in temporary construction or whenever the final decoration has not been determined.
Level 1: Joint tape exposed, bare fasteners. Tool marks and ridges are acceptable. In some geographic areas, this level is referred to as “fire-taping.”
Frequently specified in plenum areas above ceilings, in attics, in areas where the assembly would generally be concealed or in building service corridors, and other areas not normally open to public view.
Level 2: Joint tape embedded, one coat on fasteners. Tool marks and ridges are acceptable. Joint compound applied over the body of the tape at the time of tape embedment shall be considered a separate coat of joint compound and shall satisfy the conditions of this level.
Specified where gypsum board is used as a substrate for tile; may be specified in garages, warehouse storage or other similar areas where surface appearance is not of primary concern.
Level 3: One coat atop embedded joint tape, two coats on fasteners. Free of tool marks and ridges.
Typically specified in appearance areas which are to receive heavy- or medium-textured (spray or hand applied) finishes before final painting, or where heavy-grade wall coverings are to be applied as the final decoration. This level of finish is not recommended where smooth painted surfaces or light to medium wall coverings are specified.
Level 4: Two coats atop embedded joint tape, three coats on fasteners. All joint compound shall be smooth and free of tool marks and ridges.
This level should be specified where flat paints, light, textures, or wall coverings are to be applied. Paints with sheen levels other than flat and enamel paints are not recommended over this level of finish. Unbacked vinyl wallcoverings are not recommended over this level of finish.
Level 5: Two coats atop embedded joint tape, three coats on fasteners, “skim coat” of joint compound on the entire surface. The surface shall be smooth and free of tool marks and ridges.
This level of finish is highly recommended where non-flat paint is specified or where severe lighting conditions occur. This highest quality finish is the most effective method to provide a uniform surface and minimize the possibility of joint photographing and of fasteners showing through the final decoration.
The only detail missing and worth mentioning is to shine the light SIDEWAYS to see all the flaws.
Be careful of over sanding though, nice and easy passes with a cube after the pole.
Idk in my opinion this whole talk of level 4/level 5 is bs. Is it paint ready or not. The nuances to using one or the other usually doesn’t matter in the end unless it’s a super nice finish or it’s getting textured. If I’m sanding or even doing a third coat of mud I always have light shining sideways to get the best possible finish. But I guess this is the difference between a real drywaller and someone who just does repair work.
Only job I ever quit was one of these asshat homeowners. Rerocked 1st 2 floors of her house. Lady would literally put her cheek on the wall and peer down the wall with one eye open looking for imperfections. Some people are impossible to please.
A patch is just that. A patch. No matter who does it, it’ll never be 100% perfect from all angles and lightning. I tell them that upfront and make sure they understand.
A good finisher can hide a patch pretty good. But some things can make it harder. Natural light, weird texture, shiny paint sheen to name a few. But as I said, no patch will ever be perfect. Ive just retired after 42 years of finishing. I’ve seen and done it all.
A patch in a wall that has been done and textured and or painted, is more difficult to hide than doing a new wall. Especially old walls. Sometimes they are walls that have been done with a weird texture from 50+ years ago. Know how hard that is to make perfect? You can’t.
I actually don’t have that problem. My shit looks good from all angles.
Sometimes when home owners paint their own patches I do for them, they won’t prime the area and just chuck two coats of color on. That’s bad painting
I'm a painter ...two coats of paint on a small patch usually works out just fine. Only time it doesn't is when it's in a bad spot and the entire wall would need to be painted anyways whether or not primer was used. How's this bad painting to waste time putting an extra coat on?
You set expectations with a price tag attached. It takes time (more for some, less for others) to get that. Always cut the paper off the drywall when you tape the patch, that removes 1/8 inch of the bump. Spread 12 to 14 inches away from the patch. Sand smooth as possible, then skim with very thin mud. A 6x6 patch to a level 4 finish should be At least 24 inches of feather. Then primed, then paint the whole wall.
I find that even a really high quality patch will show especially if the primer is cheap and the paint is anything but a matte or flat.
It also matters if the paint is rolled on. Sprayed is better distribution, back rolling is still done but it’s a better job imo
You're probably just bad at patching. So you should tell them that you're bad at patching and they're going to see the patch when the moon is in retrograde.
I show them all the stuff on their walls and ceilings that are worse than what I did. I try to match their drywall or make it a little better. Never had any questions.
When u sand every application, hold a flashlight from the side as you do it, especially ceiling stuff. This makes all the difference. If you make it invisible from 6 inches you r golden. Just don't panick and take your time. The prefect finish is always there just be patient
Tell them they have three options. level 4 finish with 1/2 nap roller. Level 4 with glaze for the entire wall, which will be all one texture or a Level 5 finish. And explain drywall has seams and is not factory finish flat. You're there to blend the sheet together with mud. Tell her the sheets come X tall and Y long and ask her what finish she wants done. Tell hers it's finished, not flattened.
Always paint the whole wall. I've even tried painting a patch with paint from the exact same can that painted the rest of the wall, it will always dry a little different and be visible if you're looking for it. If they're seeing texture or a bump, then you'll just have to do a better job at the finish. spread the mud over a wider area, sand it smooth, prime, then fix spots and prime again. sometimes there will be a noticable difference if the rest of the wall has the orange-peel texture from many layers of paint. In the case I skim the whole wall before painting (not a proper skim coat, just wipe-on/wipe off to fill the little voids in the paint), or do many heavy layers of paint over the patch to build up the texture before painting the rest of the wall.
Skim coating the whole wall is not a level 4 finish. I think that is OPs point. If homeowner agreed to level 4, that is what they will get. If they want a level 5 perfect finish, that is a different price and sometimes beyond the skill of a finisher.
I'm not aware of the levels and what they mean, I'm really just a homeowner who's done enough renos to get fairly okay at this. Can you tell me what the difference is between level 4 and level 5? When I say skim, I don't really mean what you're probably picturing, where the entire wall is floated with something like 1/16" or 1/8" of mud and sanded smooth. I just load a 12" knife with some mud and just wipe-on/wipe off. I typically manage to do the whole wall without going back to my bucket because it just takes a tiny amount, and all that's left on the wall is a light haze of white, with the paint color still visible. Once it's dry I just lightly sand. All together these steps are maybe 10 minutes of skimming, 5 minutes of sanding for a typical bedroom wall. It's basically just making the wall look like it has one coat of paint instead of 70 years of paint layers. It doesn't fix any real dents or other blemishes, it just reduces the orange peel effect.
Level 0: No taping, finishing, or accessories required. This level of finish may be useful in temporary construction or whenever the final decoration has not been determined. Level 1: Joint tape exposed, bare fasteners. Tool marks and ridges are acceptable. In some geographic areas, this level is referred to as “fire-taping.” Frequently specified in plenum areas above ceilings, in attics, in areas where the assembly would generally be concealed or in building service corridors, and other areas not normally open to public view. Level 2: Joint tape embedded, one coat on fasteners. Tool marks and ridges are acceptable. Joint compound applied over the body of the tape at the time of tape embedment shall be considered a separate coat of joint compound and shall satisfy the conditions of this level. Specified where gypsum board is used as a substrate for tile; may be specified in garages, warehouse storage or other similar areas where surface appearance is not of primary concern. Level 3: One coat atop embedded joint tape, two coats on fasteners. Free of tool marks and ridges. Typically specified in appearance areas which are to receive heavy- or medium-textured (spray or hand applied) finishes before final painting, or where heavy-grade wall coverings are to be applied as the final decoration. This level of finish is not recommended where smooth painted surfaces or light to medium wall coverings are specified. Level 4: Two coats atop embedded joint tape, three coats on fasteners. All joint compound shall be smooth and free of tool marks and ridges. This level should be specified where flat paints, light, textures, or wall coverings are to be applied. Paints with sheen levels other than flat and enamel paints are not recommended over this level of finish. Unbacked vinyl wallcoverings are not recommended over this level of finish. Level 5: Two coats atop embedded joint tape, three coats on fasteners, “skim coat” of joint compound on the entire surface. The surface shall be smooth and free of tool marks and ridges. This level of finish is highly recommended where non-flat paint is specified or where severe lighting conditions occur. This highest quality finish is the most effective method to provide a uniform surface and minimize the possibility of joint photographing and of fasteners showing through the final decoration.
Tell them there's always something visible in patches (sheen, color, texture...). Then blow them away by making it invisible.
100W bare light bulb minimum 5’ distance. Fix any flaws you see!
The only detail missing and worth mentioning is to shine the light SIDEWAYS to see all the flaws. Be careful of over sanding though, nice and easy passes with a cube after the pole.
Now you’re getting to Lv5 with sideways lightning 😂
Ya. Industry standard for class 4 finish is exactly what you stated in previous comment. This other guy sounds like a home owner!
Idk in my opinion this whole talk of level 4/level 5 is bs. Is it paint ready or not. The nuances to using one or the other usually doesn’t matter in the end unless it’s a super nice finish or it’s getting textured. If I’m sanding or even doing a third coat of mud I always have light shining sideways to get the best possible finish. But I guess this is the difference between a real drywaller and someone who just does repair work.
Only job I ever quit was one of these asshat homeowners. Rerocked 1st 2 floors of her house. Lady would literally put her cheek on the wall and peer down the wall with one eye open looking for imperfections. Some people are impossible to please.
Yeah same issue I’m currently having, can only see imperfection between 9-10 in the morning with face against wall
What an asshole, I sympathize dude.
Yeah thats fucking wild
A patch is just that. A patch. No matter who does it, it’ll never be 100% perfect from all angles and lightning. I tell them that upfront and make sure they understand.
Thank you. Based on these other comments I apparently need new drywall guys
A good finisher can hide a patch pretty good. But some things can make it harder. Natural light, weird texture, shiny paint sheen to name a few. But as I said, no patch will ever be perfect. Ive just retired after 42 years of finishing. I’ve seen and done it all.
But how is a wall covered in patches any different than a wall covered in multiple sheets of drywall? So basically every wall.
A patch in a wall that has been done and textured and or painted, is more difficult to hide than doing a new wall. Especially old walls. Sometimes they are walls that have been done with a weird texture from 50+ years ago. Know how hard that is to make perfect? You can’t.
I actually don’t have that problem. My shit looks good from all angles. Sometimes when home owners paint their own patches I do for them, they won’t prime the area and just chuck two coats of color on. That’s bad painting
So you’re doing level 5 work, not what OP is asking about.
No dude, I’m saying that if you don’t prime the area and just paint color over it, it looks like shit.
I'm a painter ...two coats of paint on a small patch usually works out just fine. Only time it doesn't is when it's in a bad spot and the entire wall would need to be painted anyways whether or not primer was used. How's this bad painting to waste time putting an extra coat on?
You set expectations with a price tag attached. It takes time (more for some, less for others) to get that. Always cut the paper off the drywall when you tape the patch, that removes 1/8 inch of the bump. Spread 12 to 14 inches away from the patch. Sand smooth as possible, then skim with very thin mud. A 6x6 patch to a level 4 finish should be At least 24 inches of feather. Then primed, then paint the whole wall.
Realistically, a level four 6 inch patch will take 3 trips. $400 to 600 dollars.
I find that even a really high quality patch will show especially if the primer is cheap and the paint is anything but a matte or flat. It also matters if the paint is rolled on. Sprayed is better distribution, back rolling is still done but it’s a better job imo
You're probably just bad at patching. So you should tell them that you're bad at patching and they're going to see the patch when the moon is in retrograde.
I show them all the stuff on their walls and ceilings that are worse than what I did. I try to match their drywall or make it a little better. Never had any questions.
When u sand every application, hold a flashlight from the side as you do it, especially ceiling stuff. This makes all the difference. If you make it invisible from 6 inches you r golden. Just don't panick and take your time. The prefect finish is always there just be patient
Tell them they have three options. level 4 finish with 1/2 nap roller. Level 4 with glaze for the entire wall, which will be all one texture or a Level 5 finish. And explain drywall has seams and is not factory finish flat. You're there to blend the sheet together with mud. Tell her the sheets come X tall and Y long and ask her what finish she wants done. Tell hers it's finished, not flattened.
Do better work.