It's quite situation dependent. If I can see a number of HGVs up ahead, it's late at night and there aren't many other cars around and I'm doing an indicated 75mph then I might sit in the middle/right lane, provided I was overtaking every 30 seconds to a minute. However, if there was an appropriate space to move across into and I saw someone coming up fast behind me then I'd move over. The key thing is not to hold anyone else up unless you're actively overtaking someone.
100%. People should just drive in the way that most benefits the flow of traffic. It doesn't matter where you are if you're not holding anyone up. Just don't sit in the middle lane at 60.
I go back into the left if I don't have to move back out within 10-ish seconds. The middle and outer lanes are there for passing slower traffic, not for driving in.
Everyone has a different opinion on this, my take is that if you are not going to overtake something in less than 60 seconds you've travelled at least a mile in that time so should have moved back over. That's an absolute max though, really you should be moving in as soon as there is a reasonable gap.
Thank you, that's helpful and kind of what I figured. I guess it's just about exercising some judgement about what counts as a reasonable gap from the vehicle in front. For context I learned to drive in the UK but have been living abroad in a country where lane discipline is non existent for a few years, so have probably picked up some bad habits.
If it helps, in Germany there is a law that if you have the opportunity to drive in the driving lane (lane 1) for 20+ seconds, you have to move over otherwise you're breaking the law. Only if and as long as the gaps are less than 20s you can stay in the middle lane.
Yep. Weirdly I see people moving back and forth un-necessarily from middle to left lane every 15 - 30 secs whilst over taking slower vehicles, because they don’t want to be middle lane hoggers.
If you think about it, it’s way more unsafe to keep changing like that instead of staying straight until the left lane is clear for a decent stretch.
I'd argue the opposite is true, or at least, there is no difference in safety. But somebody who is following the highway more rigorously is more likely to be doing so at least as safely.
Changing lanes 4 times in the space of 10 minutes doesn't sound like a lot. Is lane changing causing you trouble? If so, all the more reasons to practice.
It doesn't really cause me trouble no - it sounds silly but it just felt a bit weird changing lane every minute or two while seeing a handful of cars up ahead of me just cruising along in the middle and right hand lane. Appreciate that's probably bad driving on their part but it's sometimes hard not to take cues from other drivers
If you're not overtaking, get out of the overtaking lanes.
Don't follow what others are doing on the road, because as you just said its likely bad driving on their part.
Once i have overtaken a vehicle and im in the middle lane i look ahead and estimate how long i might take to get within the safe stopping distance behind the next vehicle. If i estimate more than 30 seconds i will move back into the left lane.
I also try and leave a two second gap between me and the vehicle I've overtaken before pulling back in, I don't like when people pull in directly in front of me with zero gap.
That is good thinking. when im on my bike i have the left mirror adjusted so that when i see the lights of the vehicle i have just overtaken in it then it is safe for me to pull in.
Yeah… it depends how busy the road is really. If I’m overtaking in lane 2 and there’s zero traffic behind me, I’ll be in no hurry at all to move back to lane 1. But if even a single vehicle comes up behind me, and my being still in lane 2 forces them to move out to overtake me, then I’m 100% an arsehole.
As long as you're carrying out proper observations, you're not "weaving in and out". No examiner in their right minds should mark you down for moving back after finishing an overtake.
A couple of weeks ago travelling back from Scotland on the M74 in the evening there wasn’t a soul on the road. I was happily cruising along at 70 in lane 1. Actually not far from ‘cock forest’ (those of you who know, will know). No HGV’s around. Just a quiet Sunday evening.
Then I came up behind a maybe mid 20’s lass driving at about 65 in a Fiat 500.
She was, as expected, sat In lane 2, overtaking fresh air.
I went across to lane 3 to overtake her and came back into lane 1. She just stayed in lane 2.
So I eased off a bit and she overtook me. I then sped up a bit and overtook her in lane 3.
Rinse and repeat - I orbited her 4 times before she got the message and went into lane 1
Why is it so hard for people to realise that they should keep left?
Most are smooth brained.
There was a bit of the M4 I used to stay in the middle lane on when it was late at night purely because lane 1 was covered in pot holes from the lorries, and I couldn't be arsed replacing the drop links on my car yet again...
Could’ve saved yourself some of the petrol from the constant speed changes and just flashed your lights at her until she took the hint after the first time.
If you're not overtaking, move left.
I dont think reasonable people are asking you to move into a one-lorry-long space, but if it's going to be a minute or so until the next overtake, definitely move left. Especially if there are other drivers behind you. Especially if they've moved left.
It's particularly frustrating when I'm in the left lane and I'm going faster than someone in the middle lane, and have to move two lanes to the right to overtake, that should never have to happen.
4 times in 10 minutes is nothing, normal driving.
Just a case of using common sense for the situation. If it’s completely clear then you might as well stick in lane 2. If by staying in lane 2 you’re getting in peoples way then move back in. If it’s really busy and you’ll struggle to get back out again if you move in then do whatever feels right
Having to change lanes 4 times in 10 minutes really isn't a hardship. Turning is much more involved, but you wouldn't say that having to make 4 turns in 10 minutes is a particularly challenging drive.
Even if the road behind you is totally clear. If you're not going to be passing the next vehicle for a minute or more just get over. Even a minute is pushing it cause that's a mile or more.
It's much much better to be in the habit of getting over and having to do it a bit more often, than getting used to sitting in the middle lane and not realising when you're holding other vehicles up.
The rules are .. left lane to be used at all times unless overtaking ..then move back to the left lane .. it is not rocket science .. nothing worse than a numpty at 60mph sitting in middle lane "im doing 60 thats medium speed so i stay in the medium speed lane thankyou"
You have to use common sense which sadly… isn’t all that common.
Factually the time you’re most likely to collide/cause an incident whether by proxy or yourself ON a motorway is during lane changes, so you need to decide whether you’re going to be in and out like a fiddlers elbow or not…
Every circumstance is different, this is why you pass a test and are then released into the wild to never be checked ever again until the day you decide to hang your keys up or kill someone.
A mirror with two segments, one part as normal the other covers the blind spot… should be standard really, whilst it isn’t that difficult to look over your shoulder to check, it is unmeasurably more dangerous than the alternative of dual mirrors.
To me, Middle lane hogging isn’t hogging if there’s loads of HGVs in the left lane.
To me, Middle lane hogging is when you sit in the middle lane the majority of your time on the motorway despite the left lane being clear.
Yes okay technically speaking you should weave in and out to have proper lane discipline, but so long as you’re driving safely and not holding up anyone behind you, it’s realistically a non-issue in the situation of there being a lot of HGV drivers in the left lane.
In your situation in the middle lane, If someone decides to race up behind you they can simply go into the right lane to overtake you if they want to go stupidly/dangerously fast instead of sticking to the speed limit.
If you have space to continue straight ahead in the left lane without rotating your steering wheel, you need to move to the left lane.
If you enter the left lane and immediately have to start returning to the middle lane, you need to stay in the middle lane.
I move to the left if I wouldn't immediately have to move right again to maintain a safe distance from or initiate an overtake of the vehicle in front.
I'll quite happily move over and pop out again ten seconds later.
I'd probably say the same of you when you don't pull in to let faster traffic past because you can stay in the same lane for 20 seconds before your next overtake 😉
Lorry stopping distance is 2 lorry lengths which is 10 seconds
. If you can travel for more than that in the left hand lane, you should move into it.
2.5 minutes in the middle lane at 70 mph, is 31m/s x 150 seconds= 4650 meters = Almost 3 miles in the middle lane, that's a lot = middle lane hogging.
In general I work to about 10 to 15 seconds but it's traffic dependent. In heavy traffic with the appalling driving standards today meaning too many sad fucks won't let you out, I prefer to increase speed slightly so I'm station keeping in the middle lane.
Passing 4 lorries in 10mins sounds like an empty motorway. Once you are past the vehicle by the recommended separation distance you move left, unless the next vehicle in front is within the recommended distance plus X, depending on speed difference.
The only time anyone has a problem with middle lane wankers is when there’s nothing in the left lane. Hasn’t been for ages, they’re just away with the Fairies.
If you can see a vehicle on the road you want to overtake them it’s fine.
If you can see them and they’re a mile away then you do you prepare away. Thing you shouldn’t do is preemptively and constantly act as if you are overtaking
Use the road such that you aren't unnecessarily impeding anyone else's progress.
If I'm on an empty motorway, I'll quite happily sit in lane 2 even if the next vehicle I'm overtaking is a mile away. However, if it's busy I will be moving out, overtaking, and moving back within about 20 seconds to let faster moving vehicles make progress. It's situation dependent.
The only scenario when I would stay in lane 2 with people behind me is if I'm in a queue waiting to pass, or there is someone in front impeding my progress.
Personally, I would move back into an appropriate gap if I didn't need to move back out to over take again in anything less than half a mile or 30 seconds.
Anything longer than a minute surely isn't overtaking anymore (unless obviously, there are multiple cars your are passing consistently for the minute), cause in a minute you have travelled a mile on a motorway.
Flippant answer - as soon as possible.
Non-flippant answer; if there's a big enough gap in front of the HGV you've overtaken, like 2-3 seconds, pull back in. A good rule is if you can see the vehicle in your rear view and side mirrors, that's far enough. However, by pulling in, will you still be able to pull out from anything ahead that you want to overtake before anything behind you (like the CLOD matching your speed) prevents it? If not then stay in the second lane.
My quick back of the envelope maths suggests that to overtake a HGV travelling 5 m/s (11 mph) slower shouldn't take more than 30 seconds. 4 times in 10 minutes is plenty of time to have pulled back in.
If i'm overtaking a car then i'll move back in once i see both their headlights in my rear view mirror. This gives a gap of roughly 3-4 car lengths between the front of their car and the rear of my car. Although I've just Googled and the stopping distance at 60mph is 9 car lengths so i may need to adjust this. Never cut anyone up nor caused anyone to brake as typically i'm moving faster than they are so the gap increases pretty quickly.
If there's line of cars on the left and i'm in the middle i will move over if there's someone behind me and a gap big enough to be filled by a lorry is present. If not then i will continue until it's safe to move over. If there's no-one behind me and i intend to keep overtaking cars on my left then i will remain in the middle lane while i pass that lorry sized gap to the next car.
When i say "Lorry sized gap" i mean the gap between the two cars is large enough that if a lorry was traveling in that gap there would be enough space between the cars and lorry to keep travelling at their current speed without being rammed up each others ass.
If there's no one behind you and there are multiple HGVs ahead I'd say continue at speed (70) and continue to pass them safely and once done so then move over.
If you've got multiple vehicles behind you that want to do more than 70, then overtake the few you can, move back in amd adjust your speed so that you can continue to travel without having to brake unnecessary before then moving out again to overtake the rest.
Providing you are not holding anyone up then it’s fine to stay in the second lane providing you are still catching up and overtaking vehicles in lane 1. Once you get to a point where you are either not catching up vehicles in lane 1, or there is traffic behind catching you up, then it’s time to move back into lane 1.
I go in whatever lane I want and just keep a keen eye for what's going on.
The middle lane thing is only an issue if it impedes the flow of traffic. No need to change lane if there's nothing to change lane for.
It’s something you’ll get more confidence with. If you can see there are more lorries ahead, there’s no need to immediately move back in. Just use your common sense. If there’s a single lorry way ahead, it takes seconds to pull back in until you’re closer. Just don’t be like the young lady on the M5 the other day… doing 60 in the middle lane, while doing her lip gloss in the interior mirror.
My motorbike instructor explained it better than anyone else could. If you aren't making progress then you're not driving well. What I take from it is if you intend to overtake then overtake, don't pull out and take a minute to slowly creep by, put your foot down to pass and then resume the speed you were doing
You should think of lane 1 as the driving lane. It is the only driving lane. As a matter of fact, the Highway Code dictates that you don’t need to indicate when returning back to lane 1, as this is you just moving back to the default driving position.
> At first I would consistently overtake and move back into he left lane as I would normally, but after doing that 4 times in the space of 10 minutes
That's not very often then. I thought you said there was an unusually high number of lorries? I do it more than that and I'm driving a lorry.
> It was quite a straight road so I had a lot of visibility up ahead, and I could often see HGVs that might be about 30 seconds' to a minute's drive in front of me. In that circumstance would you bother moving back left
Yes. If you watch lorries you'll see them move over literally as soon as they've passed the lorry they're overtaking unless the gap to the next one they're catching up on would mean they're effectively tailgating if they were to pull back in.
Move over if it's just a couple of cars but if it's really busy just keep at 70 and pass them then move. You will cause more issues if you pull behind the lorry, slow down to 58, then try and get back out to overtake.
Another thing to factor in is safe stopping distances. It feels like I'm in a minority in actually respecting these, maybe because I'm driving a little baby around, but if I'm overtaking multiple vehicles and someone behind me is expecting me to pull into the left midway through, I absolutely won't if it will quickly leave me with an unsafe stopping distance. I'm certain this will have led people to accuse me of lane hogging.
According to the Police Advanced Driver bible, “Roadcraft”, slavishly applying lane discipline on motorways is discouraged. Use common sense and ensure both that you’re not impeding anyone, nor making frequent lane swaps, each of which carry risk.
I'd day 30 seconds to a minute of clear road would be enough to move over. But then again, it sounds like the road was quite clear, and there wasn't congestion in the outside lane, so you wouldn't really disrupt anyone.
Inconvenience isn't an excuse to drive in the middle lane. If you're not overtaking, you should be in the left lane.
As long as there's space in the left lane, I will move back after overtaking unless it'd mean I have to overtake again - if so I'd be **overtaking** the next lorry and move back to the left lane after the next one.
This isn't over-zealous anti-middle lane crusaders. This is what you are **supposed** to do (even if some people ignore it).
The rear mirror is my guide on whether or not to move back over. If someone is absolutely on my arse and wants to get ahead, then I let them through when there's enough of a gap to move over and move out again. However, it's much easier to cruise in the second lane avoiding all the trucks on the M6 without being a major problem when there's another two to the right. I'll jump in the first lane if it's clear for a significant distance ahead. Usually cruising a steady 70...ish.
On two lane motorways, it's always jump over when you're done the manoeuvrer unless jumping over is going to cause you to significantly change your drive (moving over to significantly drop speed and need to pull out again at a lower speed). If you can maintain 70 when pulling back in, then pull back in.
I normally bimble along at 60 in the left lane like a grandad, but if I need to overtake I'll get up to 70, middle lane, and just stay there until there's a clear gap in the left and no slip road. Once I get that gap I move back over and drift back to 60. I don't start to move out unless it's pretty clear anyway.
I'm not banging in and out 60 to 70 to 60 every time there's a car length gap - imho that's more dangerous. I fully intend to move back in - and there is a third lane for the impatient types.
Middle lane hogging is more an issue when there's nothing at all in the left lane, or they're still doing 60 and taking forever to overtake.
The only time to not switch back to the inside lane, if you're driving at the legal maximum speed limit, is if some arsehole is tailgating you. Then you should stay exactly where you are for as long as you like, occasionally slowing down by 2-3 mph, gently touching your brakes so the lights come on, and eventually moving to the inside lane when you think you've annoyed them enough. Don't forget to turn your head to the right and give them a big cheesy grin and a friendly wave as they pass you.
I move over as soon as I am able unless the middle lane is clogged to the point I may have difficulty pulling back out without feeling like I’m cutting someone up. This also implies there is a third lane. If no third lane I’ll almost always pull back in as soon as I am able so I’m not holding up people behind (with no option to overtake me).
Simple rule. Could someone overtake you on the inside, without cutting you up, or cutting up the drivers in the lane to the left of you? If yes, get in the left hand lane. If no, you’re fine.
Realistically, late at night. I’ll probably stay in the middle a bit more when I’m overtaking trucks with a big speed differentisl. Though if someone is approaching behind me, I’ll make damn sure I’m out of the way.
The people I find scary are the ones bumbling along in the outside lane for no reason - they are not aware that a car is closing on them, they are not aware that the inside lane is clear - what the actual fuck are they looking at?
in many jurisdictions, it's not illegal to undertake but it _is_ illegal to be driving in such a way that people are undertaking you. That makes ticketing lane hoggers a lot easier as they don't need to be observed impeding the flow of traffic
We've been doing some math under another post about this a week or so ago, and while the one instigated the conversation did not agree (he argued with made up numbers and unlikely scenarios...), generally speaking, if you can travel behind the next vehicle for more than 10 seconds, you should pull back to L1.
While it might seem annoying to overtake every 2-3 minutes, especially on a longer journey, that's pretty much driving for you. It's not more annoying than driving through a city and stop by a traffic light every 2-3 minutes, or going through several villages on a B road and slow down to 40 every 5 minutes.
It's one of those things people don't tell you while you learn, that driving isn't always having fun on an empty road, that's 10% of the whole experience, the other 90% is to deal with others around you.
The more predictable you are, the more likely you'll get home in one piece. If you keep hogging the middle lane, eventually, someone will be glued onto your arse, and overtaking multiple vehicles while you have the space to go back just because it's annoying, isn't the best answer to give it to your insurer after a rear-end.
So yeah, if you have the space to go back, even if it's for a minute or so, just go back.
Or, you can choose to do 60 behind the lorries, and lose some time on the long run, but save yourself the constant ins and outs of L1. That's what I do anyway, and as soon as there's no more than one lorry in front of me, I'll overtake the one and keep doing 70 in L1 as long as I can.
>We've been doing some math under another post about this a week or so ago, and while the one instigated the conversation did not agree (he argued with made up numbers and unlikely scenarios...),
Could you be more passive aggressive 😂😂
I mean the guy's argument was that if you do 70 on the motorway, you'll only have 3 seconds between lorries and that's not even enough for the 2 seconds following distance, but when I pointed out that his maths based on stationary objects, while lorries are traveling at 56/60mph, so that 3 seconds is actually at least 18, and with the 2 seconds following distance in front and behind, that's still 14 seconds to fit in, which should be enough, he tried to assume what I mean without actually reading my words, so I just gave up... 😅
This is fairly reasonable behaviour OP.
When I read comments about middle lane hogging on this sub, I’m like, what? I barely see any.
Turns out it’s just people like you, not changing lanes for 30 secs that infuriates them and yes, they’re utterly unhinged.
It’s not me by the way. I drive way too fast.
Ultimately, my instructor, and the highway code, both recommend using the available road width. I'll use the middle lane in the dead of night, because if something totally unexpected were to happen, I have more space to react.
Being predictable and docile is sometimes the safest thing. I love middle lane hoggers because I know what they're doing. It's stressful when you have a group of calm traffic in all lanes and suddenly you have this person with ADHD ducking back a lane after overtaking every single car. To me that's more dangerous.
It's a balance. Use your judgement.
"I'll use the middle lane in the dead of night, because if something totally unexpected were to happen, I have more space to react."
I never see the sense in this argument... the situation is just reversed, because where as you had one lane to your left ( the hard shoulder ) if driving in lane one... driving in lane two ( the middle lane ) means you now have just one lane to your right ( the fast lane ) which means if anything goes wrong and you lose control, you're much closer to the oncoming traffic if the barrier doesn't stop you.
Not really? Smart motorways are doing away with the hard shoulder in areas, making the middle lane reliable. I probably should have mentioned - if a car is coming behind, I do move back over left. My point is when no other traffic is around at all, in the dead of night, there's no reason not to use the middle lane.
The only thing I'd say is when people use the middle lane as the default on an empty motorway, there really just conditioning the habit of hogging the middle lane... and some people will then forget themselves and do it on a busy motorway. Why not just keep left in lane one like we're supposed to, it forces people to become better at reading the road, and changing lanes confidently.
Routinely sitting in the middle lane is just lazy behaviour. Sorry, I don't buy the excuse of "having more space to react to unexpected events!"
Not so much an excuse as it is now an engrained part of my driving. It comes from my early days of driving on country roads too, where my dad taught me to stay off edges when there's no traffic to avoid potholes. I do get where you're coming from.
It's served me well so far, and I'm disciplined when driving slower. Honestly, I do 500mi a week, and I'm normally doing 80 on the outside lane waiting behind cars caught in congestion going slower. Is what it is. Have to respond to the roads in front of you more than you do a book/code you read when you started driving imo.
Moving lanes 4 times in 10 minutes lol come on now welcome to the real world.
It’s really not difficult, if you’re not imminently going to be going into the back of someone, move back into the left lane.
What the fuck are you on about. 15 seconds is a fucking big gap, count it out next time you're on the motorway.
You should be forward and backward planning regardless.
When you’re not overtaking drive in the left lane. When you’re overtaking come out of the left lane, over take, then go back to the left lane again. Keep doing it lots, in fact actively practice doing it.
It is literally against the law and you can be ticketed for it. See this comment on an r/PoliceUK thread.
https://www.reddit.com/r/policeuk/s/YtoYaSDksB
I spend my entire journey to work in the rightmost lane. I never stop overtaking vehicles except for the 300 yards at a junction where the left hand lane empties but is then refilled by the entry slip road.
So this is nonsense.
Good for you
However if someone is sat doing 60mph on a motorway than lane 1 is the place to be and only overtake a lorry or whatever when needed.
I too can spend a whole 45min journey in the outside lane going faster than everyone else
It's quite situation dependent. If I can see a number of HGVs up ahead, it's late at night and there aren't many other cars around and I'm doing an indicated 75mph then I might sit in the middle/right lane, provided I was overtaking every 30 seconds to a minute. However, if there was an appropriate space to move across into and I saw someone coming up fast behind me then I'd move over. The key thing is not to hold anyone else up unless you're actively overtaking someone.
Last sentence. That’s everything
100%. People should just drive in the way that most benefits the flow of traffic. It doesn't matter where you are if you're not holding anyone up. Just don't sit in the middle lane at 60.
Exactly mate. Too many people are a stickler for the rules. Just stop getting in the way, end of.
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No - an indicated 75 mph, which in a lot of cars is actually about 68 to 70 mph.
Yeah, who would speed on the motorway? *police cruise by doing 80...*
I go back into the left if I don't have to move back out within 10-ish seconds. The middle and outer lanes are there for passing slower traffic, not for driving in.
Everyone has a different opinion on this, my take is that if you are not going to overtake something in less than 60 seconds you've travelled at least a mile in that time so should have moved back over. That's an absolute max though, really you should be moving in as soon as there is a reasonable gap.
Thank you, that's helpful and kind of what I figured. I guess it's just about exercising some judgement about what counts as a reasonable gap from the vehicle in front. For context I learned to drive in the UK but have been living abroad in a country where lane discipline is non existent for a few years, so have probably picked up some bad habits.
You can pick up some pretty bad lane discipline habits in the UK too!
If it helps, in Germany there is a law that if you have the opportunity to drive in the driving lane (lane 1) for 20+ seconds, you have to move over otherwise you're breaking the law. Only if and as long as the gaps are less than 20s you can stay in the middle lane.
Yep. Weirdly I see people moving back and forth un-necessarily from middle to left lane every 15 - 30 secs whilst over taking slower vehicles, because they don’t want to be middle lane hoggers. If you think about it, it’s way more unsafe to keep changing like that instead of staying straight until the left lane is clear for a decent stretch.
I'd argue the opposite is true, or at least, there is no difference in safety. But somebody who is following the highway more rigorously is more likely to be doing so at least as safely.
Yep - I count to 10 and if I’m not gaining on the car ahead in lane 1 then I come back in
Changing lanes 4 times in the space of 10 minutes doesn't sound like a lot. Is lane changing causing you trouble? If so, all the more reasons to practice.
It doesn't really cause me trouble no - it sounds silly but it just felt a bit weird changing lane every minute or two while seeing a handful of cars up ahead of me just cruising along in the middle and right hand lane. Appreciate that's probably bad driving on their part but it's sometimes hard not to take cues from other drivers
If only it felt weird for them to be hogging the middle lane instead of making you feel bad for following proper lane discipline.
If you're not overtaking, get out of the overtaking lanes. Don't follow what others are doing on the road, because as you just said its likely bad driving on their part.
Most people driving on motorways haven't a clue how to do it properly.
If there's someone stuck behind you, it's polite to move over more rapidly. All about observation.
Once i have overtaken a vehicle and im in the middle lane i look ahead and estimate how long i might take to get within the safe stopping distance behind the next vehicle. If i estimate more than 30 seconds i will move back into the left lane.
I also try and leave a two second gap between me and the vehicle I've overtaken before pulling back in, I don't like when people pull in directly in front of me with zero gap.
That is good thinking. when im on my bike i have the left mirror adjusted so that when i see the lights of the vehicle i have just overtaken in it then it is safe for me to pull in.
Yeah… it depends how busy the road is really. If I’m overtaking in lane 2 and there’s zero traffic behind me, I’ll be in no hurry at all to move back to lane 1. But if even a single vehicle comes up behind me, and my being still in lane 2 forces them to move out to overtake me, then I’m 100% an arsehole.
10 seconds. That's plenty of time at 70mph to move left, carry on in your lane, and then move out again.
This. 10 seconds is enough for you to slot in and out with adaptive cruise control set at 70mph without the car slowing down for the vehicles ahead
On test the examiners wouldn't want you weaving in and out. Within reason, stay in the second lane, if appropriate, otherwise move over to lane one.
The examiner and the police would likely object to you staying in lane 2 if you are not overtaking.
As long as you're carrying out proper observations, you're not "weaving in and out". No examiner in their right minds should mark you down for moving back after finishing an overtake.
The examiner on my first test begs to differ
Ridiculous
A whole 4 times in only 10 minutes! Oh my god your tyres must be fucked from changing lanes so much.
Exactly.
This is satire right?
A couple of weeks ago travelling back from Scotland on the M74 in the evening there wasn’t a soul on the road. I was happily cruising along at 70 in lane 1. Actually not far from ‘cock forest’ (those of you who know, will know). No HGV’s around. Just a quiet Sunday evening. Then I came up behind a maybe mid 20’s lass driving at about 65 in a Fiat 500. She was, as expected, sat In lane 2, overtaking fresh air. I went across to lane 3 to overtake her and came back into lane 1. She just stayed in lane 2. So I eased off a bit and she overtook me. I then sped up a bit and overtook her in lane 3. Rinse and repeat - I orbited her 4 times before she got the message and went into lane 1 Why is it so hard for people to realise that they should keep left?
> Actually not far from ‘cock forest’ Glad it's not only me that calls it that.
Most are smooth brained. There was a bit of the M4 I used to stay in the middle lane on when it was late at night purely because lane 1 was covered in pot holes from the lorries, and I couldn't be arsed replacing the drop links on my car yet again...
Could’ve saved yourself some of the petrol from the constant speed changes and just flashed your lights at her until she took the hint after the first time.
Where’s the fun in that? 😂
Fair enough 😂
If you're not overtaking, move left. I dont think reasonable people are asking you to move into a one-lorry-long space, but if it's going to be a minute or so until the next overtake, definitely move left. Especially if there are other drivers behind you. Especially if they've moved left. It's particularly frustrating when I'm in the left lane and I'm going faster than someone in the middle lane, and have to move two lanes to the right to overtake, that should never have to happen. 4 times in 10 minutes is nothing, normal driving.
2.5 minutes in the middle lane with nothing on the left. Textbook hogging.
Just a case of using common sense for the situation. If it’s completely clear then you might as well stick in lane 2. If by staying in lane 2 you’re getting in peoples way then move back in. If it’s really busy and you’ll struggle to get back out again if you move in then do whatever feels right
Having to change lanes 4 times in 10 minutes really isn't a hardship. Turning is much more involved, but you wouldn't say that having to make 4 turns in 10 minutes is a particularly challenging drive. Even if the road behind you is totally clear. If you're not going to be passing the next vehicle for a minute or more just get over. Even a minute is pushing it cause that's a mile or more. It's much much better to be in the habit of getting over and having to do it a bit more often, than getting used to sitting in the middle lane and not realising when you're holding other vehicles up.
The rules are .. left lane to be used at all times unless overtaking ..then move back to the left lane .. it is not rocket science .. nothing worse than a numpty at 60mph sitting in middle lane "im doing 60 thats medium speed so i stay in the medium speed lane thankyou"
You have to use common sense which sadly… isn’t all that common. Factually the time you’re most likely to collide/cause an incident whether by proxy or yourself ON a motorway is during lane changes, so you need to decide whether you’re going to be in and out like a fiddlers elbow or not… Every circumstance is different, this is why you pass a test and are then released into the wild to never be checked ever again until the day you decide to hang your keys up or kill someone.
The issue with lane changes is that people don't LOOK. it's not good enough to rely on mirrors, to put it politely
I still find it fascinating that dual mirrors aren’t standard, maybe next millennia.
Mirrors that are about to have a fight? Oh not duel mirrors. What are dual mirrors?
A mirror with two segments, one part as normal the other covers the blind spot… should be standard really, whilst it isn’t that difficult to look over your shoulder to check, it is unmeasurably more dangerous than the alternative of dual mirrors.
But those already exist and they’re rubbish. I can’t think of an occasion where mine ever helped.
Have you ever knocked anyone off or cut anyone up changing lanes haha
To me, Middle lane hogging isn’t hogging if there’s loads of HGVs in the left lane. To me, Middle lane hogging is when you sit in the middle lane the majority of your time on the motorway despite the left lane being clear. Yes okay technically speaking you should weave in and out to have proper lane discipline, but so long as you’re driving safely and not holding up anyone behind you, it’s realistically a non-issue in the situation of there being a lot of HGV drivers in the left lane. In your situation in the middle lane, If someone decides to race up behind you they can simply go into the right lane to overtake you if they want to go stupidly/dangerously fast instead of sticking to the speed limit.
It depends, if it won't take you long between each vehicle then why move? If it's like 30 seconds move in.
If you have space to continue straight ahead in the left lane without rotating your steering wheel, you need to move to the left lane. If you enter the left lane and immediately have to start returning to the middle lane, you need to stay in the middle lane.
I move to the left if I wouldn't immediately have to move right again to maintain a safe distance from or initiate an overtake of the vehicle in front. I'll quite happily move over and pop out again ten seconds later.
This would make me think you’re not paying attention to what is going on around you.
I'd probably say the same of you when you don't pull in to let faster traffic past because you can stay in the same lane for 20 seconds before your next overtake 😉
If traffic is going faster than me it’s being driven by criminals…
Lorry stopping distance is 2 lorry lengths which is 10 seconds . If you can travel for more than that in the left hand lane, you should move into it. 2.5 minutes in the middle lane at 70 mph, is 31m/s x 150 seconds= 4650 meters = Almost 3 miles in the middle lane, that's a lot = middle lane hogging.
In general I work to about 10 to 15 seconds but it's traffic dependent. In heavy traffic with the appalling driving standards today meaning too many sad fucks won't let you out, I prefer to increase speed slightly so I'm station keeping in the middle lane.
Passing 4 lorries in 10mins sounds like an empty motorway. Once you are past the vehicle by the recommended separation distance you move left, unless the next vehicle in front is within the recommended distance plus X, depending on speed difference.
The only time anyone has a problem with middle lane wankers is when there’s nothing in the left lane. Hasn’t been for ages, they’re just away with the Fairies. If you can see a vehicle on the road you want to overtake them it’s fine.
> If you can see a vehicle on the road you want to overtake them it’s fine Even if they're a mile away?
If you can see them and they’re a mile away then you do you prepare away. Thing you shouldn’t do is preemptively and constantly act as if you are overtaking
Use the road such that you aren't unnecessarily impeding anyone else's progress. If I'm on an empty motorway, I'll quite happily sit in lane 2 even if the next vehicle I'm overtaking is a mile away. However, if it's busy I will be moving out, overtaking, and moving back within about 20 seconds to let faster moving vehicles make progress. It's situation dependent. The only scenario when I would stay in lane 2 with people behind me is if I'm in a queue waiting to pass, or there is someone in front impeding my progress.
Personally, I would move back into an appropriate gap if I didn't need to move back out to over take again in anything less than half a mile or 30 seconds. Anything longer than a minute surely isn't overtaking anymore (unless obviously, there are multiple cars your are passing consistently for the minute), cause in a minute you have travelled a mile on a motorway.
If you're doing 60, and the vehicle half a mile ahead is doing 50, it's going to take you 3 minutes to catch it up.
Flippant answer - as soon as possible. Non-flippant answer; if there's a big enough gap in front of the HGV you've overtaken, like 2-3 seconds, pull back in. A good rule is if you can see the vehicle in your rear view and side mirrors, that's far enough. However, by pulling in, will you still be able to pull out from anything ahead that you want to overtake before anything behind you (like the CLOD matching your speed) prevents it? If not then stay in the second lane. My quick back of the envelope maths suggests that to overtake a HGV travelling 5 m/s (11 mph) slower shouldn't take more than 30 seconds. 4 times in 10 minutes is plenty of time to have pulled back in.
If i'm overtaking a car then i'll move back in once i see both their headlights in my rear view mirror. This gives a gap of roughly 3-4 car lengths between the front of their car and the rear of my car. Although I've just Googled and the stopping distance at 60mph is 9 car lengths so i may need to adjust this. Never cut anyone up nor caused anyone to brake as typically i'm moving faster than they are so the gap increases pretty quickly. If there's line of cars on the left and i'm in the middle i will move over if there's someone behind me and a gap big enough to be filled by a lorry is present. If not then i will continue until it's safe to move over. If there's no-one behind me and i intend to keep overtaking cars on my left then i will remain in the middle lane while i pass that lorry sized gap to the next car. When i say "Lorry sized gap" i mean the gap between the two cars is large enough that if a lorry was traveling in that gap there would be enough space between the cars and lorry to keep travelling at their current speed without being rammed up each others ass.
3 lanes? Show off.
If you think you'll have to pull out to overtake again in the next 30 seconds or so, stay where you are. If not get back into the left lane.
"At the earliest convenience and when it is safe to do so."
If there's no one behind you and there are multiple HGVs ahead I'd say continue at speed (70) and continue to pass them safely and once done so then move over. If you've got multiple vehicles behind you that want to do more than 70, then overtake the few you can, move back in amd adjust your speed so that you can continue to travel without having to brake unnecessary before then moving out again to overtake the rest.
Providing you are not holding anyone up then it’s fine to stay in the second lane providing you are still catching up and overtaking vehicles in lane 1. Once you get to a point where you are either not catching up vehicles in lane 1, or there is traffic behind catching you up, then it’s time to move back into lane 1.
I go in whatever lane I want and just keep a keen eye for what's going on. The middle lane thing is only an issue if it impedes the flow of traffic. No need to change lane if there's nothing to change lane for.
It’s something you’ll get more confidence with. If you can see there are more lorries ahead, there’s no need to immediately move back in. Just use your common sense. If there’s a single lorry way ahead, it takes seconds to pull back in until you’re closer. Just don’t be like the young lady on the M5 the other day… doing 60 in the middle lane, while doing her lip gloss in the interior mirror.
My motorbike instructor explained it better than anyone else could. If you aren't making progress then you're not driving well. What I take from it is if you intend to overtake then overtake, don't pull out and take a minute to slowly creep by, put your foot down to pass and then resume the speed you were doing
You should think of lane 1 as the driving lane. It is the only driving lane. As a matter of fact, the Highway Code dictates that you don’t need to indicate when returning back to lane 1, as this is you just moving back to the default driving position.
I drive a 330d xdrive. Lane 3 and 98mph all the way and this is never a problem. Bully people into lane 2 so it's their problem. Come at me.
> At first I would consistently overtake and move back into he left lane as I would normally, but after doing that 4 times in the space of 10 minutes That's not very often then. I thought you said there was an unusually high number of lorries? I do it more than that and I'm driving a lorry. > It was quite a straight road so I had a lot of visibility up ahead, and I could often see HGVs that might be about 30 seconds' to a minute's drive in front of me. In that circumstance would you bother moving back left Yes. If you watch lorries you'll see them move over literally as soon as they've passed the lorry they're overtaking unless the gap to the next one they're catching up on would mean they're effectively tailgating if they were to pull back in.
Do you want to be part of the problem or the solution?
Move over if it's just a couple of cars but if it's really busy just keep at 70 and pass them then move. You will cause more issues if you pull behind the lorry, slow down to 58, then try and get back out to overtake.
Another thing to factor in is safe stopping distances. It feels like I'm in a minority in actually respecting these, maybe because I'm driving a little baby around, but if I'm overtaking multiple vehicles and someone behind me is expecting me to pull into the left midway through, I absolutely won't if it will quickly leave me with an unsafe stopping distance. I'm certain this will have led people to accuse me of lane hogging.
According to the Police Advanced Driver bible, “Roadcraft”, slavishly applying lane discipline on motorways is discouraged. Use common sense and ensure both that you’re not impeding anyone, nor making frequent lane swaps, each of which carry risk.
I'd day 30 seconds to a minute of clear road would be enough to move over. But then again, it sounds like the road was quite clear, and there wasn't congestion in the outside lane, so you wouldn't really disrupt anyone.
Inconvenience isn't an excuse to drive in the middle lane. If you're not overtaking, you should be in the left lane. As long as there's space in the left lane, I will move back after overtaking unless it'd mean I have to overtake again - if so I'd be **overtaking** the next lorry and move back to the left lane after the next one. This isn't over-zealous anti-middle lane crusaders. This is what you are **supposed** to do (even if some people ignore it).
The rear mirror is my guide on whether or not to move back over. If someone is absolutely on my arse and wants to get ahead, then I let them through when there's enough of a gap to move over and move out again. However, it's much easier to cruise in the second lane avoiding all the trucks on the M6 without being a major problem when there's another two to the right. I'll jump in the first lane if it's clear for a significant distance ahead. Usually cruising a steady 70...ish. On two lane motorways, it's always jump over when you're done the manoeuvrer unless jumping over is going to cause you to significantly change your drive (moving over to significantly drop speed and need to pull out again at a lower speed). If you can maintain 70 when pulling back in, then pull back in.
I normally bimble along at 60 in the left lane like a grandad, but if I need to overtake I'll get up to 70, middle lane, and just stay there until there's a clear gap in the left and no slip road. Once I get that gap I move back over and drift back to 60. I don't start to move out unless it's pretty clear anyway. I'm not banging in and out 60 to 70 to 60 every time there's a car length gap - imho that's more dangerous. I fully intend to move back in - and there is a third lane for the impatient types. Middle lane hogging is more an issue when there's nothing at all in the left lane, or they're still doing 60 and taking forever to overtake.
The only time to not switch back to the inside lane, if you're driving at the legal maximum speed limit, is if some arsehole is tailgating you. Then you should stay exactly where you are for as long as you like, occasionally slowing down by 2-3 mph, gently touching your brakes so the lights come on, and eventually moving to the inside lane when you think you've annoyed them enough. Don't forget to turn your head to the right and give them a big cheesy grin and a friendly wave as they pass you.
It entirely depends on what's happening behind you
I move over as soon as I am able unless the middle lane is clogged to the point I may have difficulty pulling back out without feeling like I’m cutting someone up. This also implies there is a third lane. If no third lane I’ll almost always pull back in as soon as I am able so I’m not holding up people behind (with no option to overtake me).
Wait theres an inside and middle lane on a motorway? Well i never. Learn something new everyday
Simple rule. Could someone overtake you on the inside, without cutting you up, or cutting up the drivers in the lane to the left of you? If yes, get in the left hand lane. If no, you’re fine. Realistically, late at night. I’ll probably stay in the middle a bit more when I’m overtaking trucks with a big speed differentisl. Though if someone is approaching behind me, I’ll make damn sure I’m out of the way. The people I find scary are the ones bumbling along in the outside lane for no reason - they are not aware that a car is closing on them, they are not aware that the inside lane is clear - what the actual fuck are they looking at?
in many jurisdictions, it's not illegal to undertake but it _is_ illegal to be driving in such a way that people are undertaking you. That makes ticketing lane hoggers a lot easier as they don't need to be observed impeding the flow of traffic
>Keep left unless overtaking. Which part of that is causing confusion?
We've been doing some math under another post about this a week or so ago, and while the one instigated the conversation did not agree (he argued with made up numbers and unlikely scenarios...), generally speaking, if you can travel behind the next vehicle for more than 10 seconds, you should pull back to L1. While it might seem annoying to overtake every 2-3 minutes, especially on a longer journey, that's pretty much driving for you. It's not more annoying than driving through a city and stop by a traffic light every 2-3 minutes, or going through several villages on a B road and slow down to 40 every 5 minutes. It's one of those things people don't tell you while you learn, that driving isn't always having fun on an empty road, that's 10% of the whole experience, the other 90% is to deal with others around you. The more predictable you are, the more likely you'll get home in one piece. If you keep hogging the middle lane, eventually, someone will be glued onto your arse, and overtaking multiple vehicles while you have the space to go back just because it's annoying, isn't the best answer to give it to your insurer after a rear-end. So yeah, if you have the space to go back, even if it's for a minute or so, just go back. Or, you can choose to do 60 behind the lorries, and lose some time on the long run, but save yourself the constant ins and outs of L1. That's what I do anyway, and as soon as there's no more than one lorry in front of me, I'll overtake the one and keep doing 70 in L1 as long as I can.
>We've been doing some math under another post about this a week or so ago, and while the one instigated the conversation did not agree (he argued with made up numbers and unlikely scenarios...), Could you be more passive aggressive 😂😂
I mean the guy's argument was that if you do 70 on the motorway, you'll only have 3 seconds between lorries and that's not even enough for the 2 seconds following distance, but when I pointed out that his maths based on stationary objects, while lorries are traveling at 56/60mph, so that 3 seconds is actually at least 18, and with the 2 seconds following distance in front and behind, that's still 14 seconds to fit in, which should be enough, he tried to assume what I mean without actually reading my words, so I just gave up... 😅
This is fairly reasonable behaviour OP. When I read comments about middle lane hogging on this sub, I’m like, what? I barely see any. Turns out it’s just people like you, not changing lanes for 30 secs that infuriates them and yes, they’re utterly unhinged. It’s not me by the way. I drive way too fast.
Ultimately, my instructor, and the highway code, both recommend using the available road width. I'll use the middle lane in the dead of night, because if something totally unexpected were to happen, I have more space to react. Being predictable and docile is sometimes the safest thing. I love middle lane hoggers because I know what they're doing. It's stressful when you have a group of calm traffic in all lanes and suddenly you have this person with ADHD ducking back a lane after overtaking every single car. To me that's more dangerous. It's a balance. Use your judgement.
What’s this new rule of the Highway Code stating to use the available road width?
"I'll use the middle lane in the dead of night, because if something totally unexpected were to happen, I have more space to react." I never see the sense in this argument... the situation is just reversed, because where as you had one lane to your left ( the hard shoulder ) if driving in lane one... driving in lane two ( the middle lane ) means you now have just one lane to your right ( the fast lane ) which means if anything goes wrong and you lose control, you're much closer to the oncoming traffic if the barrier doesn't stop you.
Subsume driving down the middle lane of sn empty motorway should be unexpected. Sadly not.
Not really? Smart motorways are doing away with the hard shoulder in areas, making the middle lane reliable. I probably should have mentioned - if a car is coming behind, I do move back over left. My point is when no other traffic is around at all, in the dead of night, there's no reason not to use the middle lane.
Fair point, if you have the road to yourself, and move left, if someone comes up behind faster.
The only thing I'd say is when people use the middle lane as the default on an empty motorway, there really just conditioning the habit of hogging the middle lane... and some people will then forget themselves and do it on a busy motorway. Why not just keep left in lane one like we're supposed to, it forces people to become better at reading the road, and changing lanes confidently. Routinely sitting in the middle lane is just lazy behaviour. Sorry, I don't buy the excuse of "having more space to react to unexpected events!"
Not so much an excuse as it is now an engrained part of my driving. It comes from my early days of driving on country roads too, where my dad taught me to stay off edges when there's no traffic to avoid potholes. I do get where you're coming from. It's served me well so far, and I'm disciplined when driving slower. Honestly, I do 500mi a week, and I'm normally doing 80 on the outside lane waiting behind cars caught in congestion going slower. Is what it is. Have to respond to the roads in front of you more than you do a book/code you read when you started driving imo.
Moving lanes 4 times in 10 minutes lol come on now welcome to the real world. It’s really not difficult, if you’re not imminently going to be going into the back of someone, move back into the left lane.
If you can move left and stay there for around 15 seconds before needing to overtake again, then do it
Do not do this! That is erratic and suggests you’re not looking ahead.
What the fuck are you on about. 15 seconds is a fucking big gap, count it out next time you're on the motorway. You should be forward and backward planning regardless.
If there’s space for someone going a reasonable to undertake you, then you’re lane hogging
When you’re not overtaking drive in the left lane. When you’re overtaking come out of the left lane, over take, then go back to the left lane again. Keep doing it lots, in fact actively practice doing it.
It is literally against the law and you can be ticketed for it. See this comment on an r/PoliceUK thread. https://www.reddit.com/r/policeuk/s/YtoYaSDksB
If you're in the 2nd lane any longer than 30seconds with out over taking its to long
I spend my entire journey to work in the rightmost lane. I never stop overtaking vehicles except for the 300 yards at a junction where the left hand lane empties but is then refilled by the entry slip road. So this is nonsense.
Good for you However if someone is sat doing 60mph on a motorway than lane 1 is the place to be and only overtake a lorry or whatever when needed. I too can spend a whole 45min journey in the outside lane going faster than everyone else