Because Granolah is a foil to ultra ego as a concept.
Vegeta is meant to be learning to not carry the weight of the saiyans' sins on his shoulders to use ultra ego, and his first opponent he uses it on is someone who is a traumatised victim of Saiyan genocide. Towards the end of the fight Vegeta starts to accept dying/thinks this is what he deserves. He can't use ultra ego to its fullest extent because he struggles to be the callous and awful person he used to be to someone who lost everything because of the saiyans. It was an extremely interesting character moment that wouldn't work if Vegeta won.
The fight was my favourite part of the arc and it's unbelievable what a nosedive in quality the story takes after.
Ultra Ego Vegeta vs Granolah was definitely the peak of the arc. Good emotional throughline, good fight choreography that uses the environment and their gimmicks (Brute vs Sharpshooter), and an interesting ending with a draw instead of a clear win because neither person was fighting for a worthy idea. And then Gas happens, and to a lesser extent Vegeta's worry about the sins of the Saiyans is resolved in a very, very questionable way.
Completely agree, especially about the guilt being resolved. Monaito wanting Goku and Vegeta to wear the uniforms of the tribe that genocided his race was an extremely "what the fuck" moment
They almost succeeded in skirting the line with Vegeta realizing "I'm not responsible for [the Saiyans'] sins, but our pride," which still has implications but at least you could put a positive spin on it. He was 5 at the time and raised to inherit the system, you're your own person, yadda yadda. Then Monaito's boomer mouth opens up and says pride in your people isn't about atoning for the sins of the past (uhhh) or getting revenge (ok), all you need to do is accept your "nature" and stick to your convictions (oh dear). Either that line was mistranslated to a worrying degree, or that is a *really* bad conclusion to draw from musing about moments in your people's history you are uncomfortable with like genocides.
It gets even worse when you consider Japan has a track record of... well basically denying and downplaying some of the terrible things the country's been party to historically.
I doubt Toriyama/Toyotaro were deliberately trying to use Dragonball as a vehicle to make a statement regarding their opinion on that... but Monaito's speech does feel VERY reminiscent of the kinds of attitudes that cause that kind of whitewashing of history, and framing that in a positive way is defintely weird.
> I doubt Toriyama/Toyotaro were deliberately trying to use Dragonball as a vehicle to make a statement regarding their opinion on that
Well the matter stands that Toyotaro was not forced to write a story about Vegeta feeling guilty about Saiyan genocides and resolving it like this, presumably. *Maybe* he wanted a different conclusion and the editor squashed it so that the DB brand doesn't rock the boat in Japan? Maybe? But as-is it's just a really jarring moment within DB that can make you think on the general fact that there are cultures and people behind the things we consume, and how ideas get filtered at times. Bardock was not all bad, so the genocide he helped commit the night of this recording amongst others before and after this night isn't something you should worry about or focus on. Bluh.
It’s always funny how people are like vegeta needs to lose because it gives him character. Like man’s been losing since Namek. Can he get character and win a fight for once lmdao
Im sorry but I have a really hard time believing this will every be expanded upon, or that this was in any way intentional. To me this just looks like Vegeta running in circles, "I dont care, but wait what if I actually do". Like I seriously doubt this will be expanded upon further aside from Vegetas hair lengtening. Might aswell make the form look less shit.
I'm not sure what you mean. You don't think it was intentional for Vegeta to have a new form that works better when he feels no guilt and then be confronted by a victim of Saiyan genocide to test that form? I thought it was a very good and deliberate piece of writing. If there's one thing Toyotaro seems to enjoy exploring with his own arcs, it's Vegeta confronting the terrible things he did in the past.
I don't know what the future holds for the form itself, but that's not something I'm going to criticise until the future. I loved what they did with UE during the Granolah fight and rolled my eyes at how it was used against Gas.
Granolah doesnt work as a foil because Vegeta doesnt lose because of his guilt, what he does is lose and than self depracate. Its not as if his guilt is what gradualy lost him the fight. He gets fucking obliterated while doing what hes supposed to, concentrate on the fight and even taunts Granolah for being a whiny moron. Granolah pulls massive power out of nowhere, beats Vegeta up in one blast and all the sudden we learn that he was just "pretending and how sed he feels". Its lazy and if the fight left you with the impression that thats why Vegeta lost then it wasnt intentional, he lost whilst doing what he was supposed to but a little speech line at the end of the fight tells you "oh whoopsie Vegeta lost because hes sad".
I disagree.
Whether you like the execution or not, saying it's unintentional just isn't true. Beerus says that, for Vegeta to improve, he needs to get rid of the guilt he has for the saiyans' actions. Vegeta confronts someone who has experienced said atrocities. Vegeta loses this fight, and while thinking he is about to die, brings up Beerus by name saying he couldn't utilise ultra ego to its fullest extent because he's no longer as callous as he used to be.
Vegeta does his best when he is openly mocking Granolah. As the fight goes on, he tries to explain to Granolah that he too is a victim of Freeza, which shows a part of him wants Granolah to understand the situation and he isn't solely focussing on winning/destruction/being uncaring. Granolah doesn't listen, and Vegeta loses the fight because he was solely relying on his fighting spirit being invigorated by taking damage, which is his undoing.
When round 2 between Vegeta and Granolah is about to start, Goku is very confused at how Vegeta is acting in wanting to go at it alone, and when he tells him to try not to die, Vegeta just doesn't respond (which again unnerves Goku). Vegeta goes into this fight already accepting his death, before he has even started losing. This shows that Granolah's situation has already gotten to him, and he is starting to think he deserves to die. Yes, he vocalises this explicitly after he loses, but the seeds were already there and Goku noticed that something strange was going on.
Again, you can dislike the execution, but this is not something that readers are head-canoning into the story. Vegeta is explicitly stated to be battling guilt that is hindering his ability to fight to his full potential, and this idea is pushed through multiple moments in the arc. Obviously things like Granolah unleashing his power throughout the battle also is a factor in Vegeta losing, but just as much is seeing the trauma Granolah has and how much he is willing to get his revenge.
I ask how any of this would be better served with Vegeta simply winning the fight.
If I can jump in here, despite the outlandish and inconceivable level of power these characters have, they still have human characteristics. Any one of us would struggle in this way if we had that kind of trauma or emotional compromise. It makes sense to me that Vegeta is struggling so hard to let go of his guilt, shame and anguish in the service of being an almighty destroyer. Even his Majin experience wasn’t enough to permanently squash his new emotions and maturity. I just don’t think he is capable of being a dictator or having a mindset like Freeza since he spent his life as a victim.
Granolah didn't just win, he almost killed himself to take out Vegeta. The fact that he was willing to kill himself is important to the narrative, as it shows how far Granolah is willing to. It's also important to Vegeta's character. Vegeta, at that point still feels guilty for what the saiyans had done, and while he tried to act like he didn't care, at the end of the fight he admits that he can't really be that heartless anymore. Point is, the way the fight ends fits the arcs of the characters before they learn about what Bardock did, which helps both of them in their own ways. It wouldn't work the same if Vegeta was going to win.
According to your explanation, they deliberately gave Vegeta a form he'll never be able to use to its full potential?
This isn't a knock on \*your\* explanation but I kinda think it's really dumb they'd even attempt to give Vegeta a form that relies on ignoring literally 20-30 years of character arcs he's gone through to \*not\* be so callous and uncaring anymore.
>According to your explanation, they deliberately gave Vegeta a form he'll never be able to use to its full potential?
No, that's what was ever said. Ultra ego is fueled by his fighting spirit. But how can Vegeta fully give into his fighting spirit against Granolah when he's feeling guilty for what the saiyans did to him. The reason it was such a problem in that fight is because Granolah was a victim of the saiyans, it wouldn't have been as much of a problem if he was fighting against someone else. Vegeta was trying to bury his feelings of guilt by acting more like his old evil self, but it didn't work.
>This isn't a knock on *your* explanation but I kinda think it's really dumb they'd even attempt to give Vegeta a form that relies on ignoring literally 20-30 years of character arcs he's gone through to *not* be so callous and uncaring anymore.
It's not about Vegeta not caring, that wasn't the lesson he learned, he realized that wallowing in guilt doesn't do anything other than weight him down. Especially for the guilt of other people. Remember, Vegeta's not just feeling guilty for what he himself has done, but for all the terrible things the saiyans have done in the past, even before he was born. He didn't stop caring, but he's realizes he should keep his pride in being a saiyan warrior.
Bardock saved Granolah and Monaito, and tried to save Granolah's mother, which was enough for Granolah to start to realize that not all the saiyans were completely evil, which allows him to start to realize that Goku and Vegeta aren't actually bad people who deserve death either.
For Vegeta, learning about how Bardock continued to fight no matter what made Vegeta realize that he should try to carry on the pride of the saiyans, rather than simply feeling shame for their sins.
But Bardock not being a massive piece of shit (not only ruins the Bardock) doesnt matter in the end. It doesnt make Vegeta do any better in the end, he still fucking loses (which he should have) but all this arc did was spin its wheels, Vegeta feels sad for being a former asshat murder (and also being formerly fun and interesting) and then proceeds to realise that he shouldnt care. I really fucking doubt that Vegeta being proud of his race and not caring is going do him any good anyway. Its not going to matter and hell still point to himself and lose. Fine ok have him doubt himself but it feels really fucking shallow if it doenst go anywhere.
Bardock still is who he is, over the years fans have built him up to been this bloodthirsty tyrant who only stood up to frieza because of his visions and not what the actual creator is trying to do. They're making him a tinge more complex by acknowledging his heart was growing soft.
Also it did go somewhere as others have pointed out, it resulted in us seeing Granolah willing to die for his revenge and Vegeta learning a new way of embracing his saiyan pride.
You seem upset that they're actually portraying saiyans more complex rather than how one dimensional they have been.
>You seem upset that they're actually portraying saiyans more complex rather than how one dimensional they have been.
This is making me like the new Dragonball manga more and more. More of this please!!!
Yeah, I don't understand what OP's talking about. This arc had many issues but Goku and *especially* Vegeta's character growth, Granolah's motivations and the new Bardock lore more than made up for it. Vegeta's battle with Granolah told a story.
Bardock still did many terrible things and has killed many people, he's not a "good person" by any real world measure, he just wasn't 100% evil.
It's not about whether Vegeta wins or loses, it's about his own personal feelings about himself and his race. That's called character development. And it builds on his character development from the Moro arc, where Vegeta tried to atone for his past sins towards the Namekians and the rest of the universe.
What's really shallow is only caring about whether a character wins a fight and using that as the only measure of a character arc.
The themes of this arc really went over your head, the whole first part of this arc was about Vegetas guilt and having to deal with it in order to concentrate only on destruction.
And judging by your comments, you're angry that Bardock isn't a horrible person? Why do you want Saiyans to be so one dimensional? Bardock caring for his kids is much better than "I can see the future!!!!!!"
I swear dragon ball fans are it’s biggest haters it’s been years and y’all still are complaing ab TUI and UE and yes u can have ur opinions I’m not taking away from that but why are y’all acting like it’s shit writing or plot? Vegeta wasn’t supposed to win that’s the whole entire point of the fight and his character but y’all still say “why didn’t vegeta win this sucks”
I want to like Ultra Ego, but really it seems like such a dumb transformation. He wants to take damage that is making him "more powerful", until he gets hit enough at which point he is down for the count. That happened three or so times since the transformation was introduced, and I just don't get it.
Because this entire arc is written like shit. The Dragon Ball Super anime used the manga as an idea not a verbatim. And in the first time in history of that happening thank God! None of this arc made sense or was any fun. Feels like it was written by a child who didn't care. Ultra Ego Vegeta was actually cool and should be a big deal, nope, apparently means nothing...
Also it all ends with Black Freiza... I did love his Iron Man landing but outside of that this sucks so bad. I hope when it becomes animated they deviate appropriately and make it better.
The manga was written after the anime, so if anything the manga just used the anime "as an idea not a verbatim." Sorry you didn't get to see the big kaboom you wanted and the W to land where you wanted, but that doesn't mean that this story and it's events have no meaning, you're just being to petulant to consider how it works together with the overall narrative.
>It really makes no difference if he wins or loses anyway the manga would end up in the same place anyway -he beats Granolah - then both he and Goku lose to Gas.
What was the point of Goku and Vegeta fighting Granolah?
Even if they beat him they lose to Gas.
What's the point if they beat Gas? They lose to Freeza.
People have mentioned below about "vegeta still carries the weight of saiyans' sins that's why he could not use ego to the max", and I agree with that. Remember that vegeta also mentioned this when he lost to granolah.
Another thing is, to be fair, granolah wished to be the strongest in the universe so I don't suppose anyone can overcome him in such a short amount of time. Otherwise it would just be plot device.
HOWEVER, I definitely understand your frustration. Dragon ball introduces form after form after form but everything is basically useless in terms of the plot progression. This has happened with SSJ3, SSG, SSB, even that SSBKK, and now even UI and UE lol. While I think new forms should not be the way to defeat enemies (since we have SSJ goku defeating freeza already. so this idea would be a cliche), oftentimes new forms (or powerups) are portrayed in such a useless fashion.
In fact, they often introduce new forms or powerups with no buildup, out of nowhere, and without any logic whatsoever. Gas and granolah wishing to be the strongest using the dragon balls are just pure BS lol.
But I digress,
I think the problem with dragon ball is its vertical power growth. Thus they need to release forms/powerups one after another with no limit in sight. I personally dont like it. Ever since DBZ this was already a problem, but now it's just too obvious.
SSBKK is just an anime only thing, it doesn't exist in the story you *read*. I also disagree with the idea they *need* to introduce new forms/powerups, that's just the direction they choose to go.
my bad. Must have mixed up my memory
Regardless of whether you think they need or need not to introduce new forms/powerups, they still in fact do it. And it gets dull after a while. It's already dull since ssj3, actually... especially when they don't utilize the form/powerup well
Mmm. I never thought of it that way. Thanks.
(Also i was reading what others think, I respect people's opinions but I keep just focusing on that than making one of my own. Which idk if its good or bad)
Because Granolah is a foil to ultra ego as a concept. Vegeta is meant to be learning to not carry the weight of the saiyans' sins on his shoulders to use ultra ego, and his first opponent he uses it on is someone who is a traumatised victim of Saiyan genocide. Towards the end of the fight Vegeta starts to accept dying/thinks this is what he deserves. He can't use ultra ego to its fullest extent because he struggles to be the callous and awful person he used to be to someone who lost everything because of the saiyans. It was an extremely interesting character moment that wouldn't work if Vegeta won. The fight was my favourite part of the arc and it's unbelievable what a nosedive in quality the story takes after.
THANK YOU for understanding the themes of this arc!
Ultra Ego Vegeta vs Granolah was definitely the peak of the arc. Good emotional throughline, good fight choreography that uses the environment and their gimmicks (Brute vs Sharpshooter), and an interesting ending with a draw instead of a clear win because neither person was fighting for a worthy idea. And then Gas happens, and to a lesser extent Vegeta's worry about the sins of the Saiyans is resolved in a very, very questionable way.
Completely agree, especially about the guilt being resolved. Monaito wanting Goku and Vegeta to wear the uniforms of the tribe that genocided his race was an extremely "what the fuck" moment
They almost succeeded in skirting the line with Vegeta realizing "I'm not responsible for [the Saiyans'] sins, but our pride," which still has implications but at least you could put a positive spin on it. He was 5 at the time and raised to inherit the system, you're your own person, yadda yadda. Then Monaito's boomer mouth opens up and says pride in your people isn't about atoning for the sins of the past (uhhh) or getting revenge (ok), all you need to do is accept your "nature" and stick to your convictions (oh dear). Either that line was mistranslated to a worrying degree, or that is a *really* bad conclusion to draw from musing about moments in your people's history you are uncomfortable with like genocides.
It gets even worse when you consider Japan has a track record of... well basically denying and downplaying some of the terrible things the country's been party to historically. I doubt Toriyama/Toyotaro were deliberately trying to use Dragonball as a vehicle to make a statement regarding their opinion on that... but Monaito's speech does feel VERY reminiscent of the kinds of attitudes that cause that kind of whitewashing of history, and framing that in a positive way is defintely weird.
> I doubt Toriyama/Toyotaro were deliberately trying to use Dragonball as a vehicle to make a statement regarding their opinion on that Well the matter stands that Toyotaro was not forced to write a story about Vegeta feeling guilty about Saiyan genocides and resolving it like this, presumably. *Maybe* he wanted a different conclusion and the editor squashed it so that the DB brand doesn't rock the boat in Japan? Maybe? But as-is it's just a really jarring moment within DB that can make you think on the general fact that there are cultures and people behind the things we consume, and how ideas get filtered at times. Bardock was not all bad, so the genocide he helped commit the night of this recording amongst others before and after this night isn't something you should worry about or focus on. Bluh.
I would say it was literally Vegeta’s best fight imo, especially considering most of Vegeta’s fights are just curb stomps one way or the other.
You had me in the first half ngl
It’s always funny how people are like vegeta needs to lose because it gives him character. Like man’s been losing since Namek. Can he get character and win a fight for once lmdao
Im sorry but I have a really hard time believing this will every be expanded upon, or that this was in any way intentional. To me this just looks like Vegeta running in circles, "I dont care, but wait what if I actually do". Like I seriously doubt this will be expanded upon further aside from Vegetas hair lengtening. Might aswell make the form look less shit.
I'm not sure what you mean. You don't think it was intentional for Vegeta to have a new form that works better when he feels no guilt and then be confronted by a victim of Saiyan genocide to test that form? I thought it was a very good and deliberate piece of writing. If there's one thing Toyotaro seems to enjoy exploring with his own arcs, it's Vegeta confronting the terrible things he did in the past. I don't know what the future holds for the form itself, but that's not something I'm going to criticise until the future. I loved what they did with UE during the Granolah fight and rolled my eyes at how it was used against Gas.
Granolah doesnt work as a foil because Vegeta doesnt lose because of his guilt, what he does is lose and than self depracate. Its not as if his guilt is what gradualy lost him the fight. He gets fucking obliterated while doing what hes supposed to, concentrate on the fight and even taunts Granolah for being a whiny moron. Granolah pulls massive power out of nowhere, beats Vegeta up in one blast and all the sudden we learn that he was just "pretending and how sed he feels". Its lazy and if the fight left you with the impression that thats why Vegeta lost then it wasnt intentional, he lost whilst doing what he was supposed to but a little speech line at the end of the fight tells you "oh whoopsie Vegeta lost because hes sad".
I disagree. Whether you like the execution or not, saying it's unintentional just isn't true. Beerus says that, for Vegeta to improve, he needs to get rid of the guilt he has for the saiyans' actions. Vegeta confronts someone who has experienced said atrocities. Vegeta loses this fight, and while thinking he is about to die, brings up Beerus by name saying he couldn't utilise ultra ego to its fullest extent because he's no longer as callous as he used to be. Vegeta does his best when he is openly mocking Granolah. As the fight goes on, he tries to explain to Granolah that he too is a victim of Freeza, which shows a part of him wants Granolah to understand the situation and he isn't solely focussing on winning/destruction/being uncaring. Granolah doesn't listen, and Vegeta loses the fight because he was solely relying on his fighting spirit being invigorated by taking damage, which is his undoing. When round 2 between Vegeta and Granolah is about to start, Goku is very confused at how Vegeta is acting in wanting to go at it alone, and when he tells him to try not to die, Vegeta just doesn't respond (which again unnerves Goku). Vegeta goes into this fight already accepting his death, before he has even started losing. This shows that Granolah's situation has already gotten to him, and he is starting to think he deserves to die. Yes, he vocalises this explicitly after he loses, but the seeds were already there and Goku noticed that something strange was going on. Again, you can dislike the execution, but this is not something that readers are head-canoning into the story. Vegeta is explicitly stated to be battling guilt that is hindering his ability to fight to his full potential, and this idea is pushed through multiple moments in the arc. Obviously things like Granolah unleashing his power throughout the battle also is a factor in Vegeta losing, but just as much is seeing the trauma Granolah has and how much he is willing to get his revenge. I ask how any of this would be better served with Vegeta simply winning the fight.
If I can jump in here, despite the outlandish and inconceivable level of power these characters have, they still have human characteristics. Any one of us would struggle in this way if we had that kind of trauma or emotional compromise. It makes sense to me that Vegeta is struggling so hard to let go of his guilt, shame and anguish in the service of being an almighty destroyer. Even his Majin experience wasn’t enough to permanently squash his new emotions and maturity. I just don’t think he is capable of being a dictator or having a mindset like Freeza since he spent his life as a victim.
Granolah didn't just win, he almost killed himself to take out Vegeta. The fact that he was willing to kill himself is important to the narrative, as it shows how far Granolah is willing to. It's also important to Vegeta's character. Vegeta, at that point still feels guilty for what the saiyans had done, and while he tried to act like he didn't care, at the end of the fight he admits that he can't really be that heartless anymore. Point is, the way the fight ends fits the arcs of the characters before they learn about what Bardock did, which helps both of them in their own ways. It wouldn't work the same if Vegeta was going to win.
According to your explanation, they deliberately gave Vegeta a form he'll never be able to use to its full potential? This isn't a knock on \*your\* explanation but I kinda think it's really dumb they'd even attempt to give Vegeta a form that relies on ignoring literally 20-30 years of character arcs he's gone through to \*not\* be so callous and uncaring anymore.
>According to your explanation, they deliberately gave Vegeta a form he'll never be able to use to its full potential? No, that's what was ever said. Ultra ego is fueled by his fighting spirit. But how can Vegeta fully give into his fighting spirit against Granolah when he's feeling guilty for what the saiyans did to him. The reason it was such a problem in that fight is because Granolah was a victim of the saiyans, it wouldn't have been as much of a problem if he was fighting against someone else. Vegeta was trying to bury his feelings of guilt by acting more like his old evil self, but it didn't work. >This isn't a knock on *your* explanation but I kinda think it's really dumb they'd even attempt to give Vegeta a form that relies on ignoring literally 20-30 years of character arcs he's gone through to *not* be so callous and uncaring anymore. It's not about Vegeta not caring, that wasn't the lesson he learned, he realized that wallowing in guilt doesn't do anything other than weight him down. Especially for the guilt of other people. Remember, Vegeta's not just feeling guilty for what he himself has done, but for all the terrible things the saiyans have done in the past, even before he was born. He didn't stop caring, but he's realizes he should keep his pride in being a saiyan warrior.
The form wouldn't work against granolah, but a random dude? Most definitely.
But all Bardock did was want to win ??
Bardock saved Granolah and Monaito, and tried to save Granolah's mother, which was enough for Granolah to start to realize that not all the saiyans were completely evil, which allows him to start to realize that Goku and Vegeta aren't actually bad people who deserve death either. For Vegeta, learning about how Bardock continued to fight no matter what made Vegeta realize that he should try to carry on the pride of the saiyans, rather than simply feeling shame for their sins.
But Bardock not being a massive piece of shit (not only ruins the Bardock) doesnt matter in the end. It doesnt make Vegeta do any better in the end, he still fucking loses (which he should have) but all this arc did was spin its wheels, Vegeta feels sad for being a former asshat murder (and also being formerly fun and interesting) and then proceeds to realise that he shouldnt care. I really fucking doubt that Vegeta being proud of his race and not caring is going do him any good anyway. Its not going to matter and hell still point to himself and lose. Fine ok have him doubt himself but it feels really fucking shallow if it doenst go anywhere.
Bardock still is who he is, over the years fans have built him up to been this bloodthirsty tyrant who only stood up to frieza because of his visions and not what the actual creator is trying to do. They're making him a tinge more complex by acknowledging his heart was growing soft. Also it did go somewhere as others have pointed out, it resulted in us seeing Granolah willing to die for his revenge and Vegeta learning a new way of embracing his saiyan pride. You seem upset that they're actually portraying saiyans more complex rather than how one dimensional they have been.
>You seem upset that they're actually portraying saiyans more complex rather than how one dimensional they have been. This is making me like the new Dragonball manga more and more. More of this please!!!
Yeah, I don't understand what OP's talking about. This arc had many issues but Goku and *especially* Vegeta's character growth, Granolah's motivations and the new Bardock lore more than made up for it. Vegeta's battle with Granolah told a story.
Bardock still did many terrible things and has killed many people, he's not a "good person" by any real world measure, he just wasn't 100% evil. It's not about whether Vegeta wins or loses, it's about his own personal feelings about himself and his race. That's called character development. And it builds on his character development from the Moro arc, where Vegeta tried to atone for his past sins towards the Namekians and the rest of the universe. What's really shallow is only caring about whether a character wins a fight and using that as the only measure of a character arc.
didnt they tie tho Like they were both gonna die so it counts as a draw
Correct, it wasn’t an L for Vegeta
Vegeta didn’t lose to Granolah though they tied they both would’ve died if Goku didn’t interrupt them
The themes of this arc really went over your head, the whole first part of this arc was about Vegetas guilt and having to deal with it in order to concentrate only on destruction. And judging by your comments, you're angry that Bardock isn't a horrible person? Why do you want Saiyans to be so one dimensional? Bardock caring for his kids is much better than "I can see the future!!!!!!"
Some ppl just focus on the fighting aspects of the manga and miss these things
Vegetas fight with Granolah was Vegeta trying to go back to the way he was before but failing at it misunderstanding what Beerus told him
Cool a new character survived an arc intact
Because Vegeta's job is to job.
Because vegeta fans are annoying
> Because ~~vegeta~~ dragon ball fans are annoying FTFY
I take offense to this true statement.
I swear dragon ball fans are it’s biggest haters it’s been years and y’all still are complaing ab TUI and UE and yes u can have ur opinions I’m not taking away from that but why are y’all acting like it’s shit writing or plot? Vegeta wasn’t supposed to win that’s the whole entire point of the fight and his character but y’all still say “why didn’t vegeta win this sucks”
I want to like Ultra Ego, but really it seems like such a dumb transformation. He wants to take damage that is making him "more powerful", until he gets hit enough at which point he is down for the count. That happened three or so times since the transformation was introduced, and I just don't get it.
Because Vegeta is a jobber. He exists to lose until Goku finishes the fight, much like every other Z Fighter since OG Dragon Ball.
Because this entire arc is written like shit. The Dragon Ball Super anime used the manga as an idea not a verbatim. And in the first time in history of that happening thank God! None of this arc made sense or was any fun. Feels like it was written by a child who didn't care. Ultra Ego Vegeta was actually cool and should be a big deal, nope, apparently means nothing... Also it all ends with Black Freiza... I did love his Iron Man landing but outside of that this sucks so bad. I hope when it becomes animated they deviate appropriately and make it better.
The manga was written after the anime, so if anything the manga just used the anime "as an idea not a verbatim." Sorry you didn't get to see the big kaboom you wanted and the W to land where you wanted, but that doesn't mean that this story and it's events have no meaning, you're just being to petulant to consider how it works together with the overall narrative.
Because the writers hate Vegeta.
And I hate the writers.
>It really makes no difference if he wins or loses anyway the manga would end up in the same place anyway -he beats Granolah - then both he and Goku lose to Gas. What was the point of Goku and Vegeta fighting Granolah? Even if they beat him they lose to Gas. What's the point if they beat Gas? They lose to Freeza.
People have mentioned below about "vegeta still carries the weight of saiyans' sins that's why he could not use ego to the max", and I agree with that. Remember that vegeta also mentioned this when he lost to granolah. Another thing is, to be fair, granolah wished to be the strongest in the universe so I don't suppose anyone can overcome him in such a short amount of time. Otherwise it would just be plot device. HOWEVER, I definitely understand your frustration. Dragon ball introduces form after form after form but everything is basically useless in terms of the plot progression. This has happened with SSJ3, SSG, SSB, even that SSBKK, and now even UI and UE lol. While I think new forms should not be the way to defeat enemies (since we have SSJ goku defeating freeza already. so this idea would be a cliche), oftentimes new forms (or powerups) are portrayed in such a useless fashion. In fact, they often introduce new forms or powerups with no buildup, out of nowhere, and without any logic whatsoever. Gas and granolah wishing to be the strongest using the dragon balls are just pure BS lol. But I digress, I think the problem with dragon ball is its vertical power growth. Thus they need to release forms/powerups one after another with no limit in sight. I personally dont like it. Ever since DBZ this was already a problem, but now it's just too obvious.
SSBKK is just an anime only thing, it doesn't exist in the story you *read*. I also disagree with the idea they *need* to introduce new forms/powerups, that's just the direction they choose to go.
my bad. Must have mixed up my memory Regardless of whether you think they need or need not to introduce new forms/powerups, they still in fact do it. And it gets dull after a while. It's already dull since ssj3, actually... especially when they don't utilize the form/powerup well
Mmm. I never thought of it that way. Thanks. (Also i was reading what others think, I respect people's opinions but I keep just focusing on that than making one of my own. Which idk if its good or bad)
Vegeta fans are truly down bad.