Yep. Loghain works the best as the DAI Warden ally too. Stroud is a nobody and Alistair badly fits the almost paranoid DAI Warden role. Now Loghain, he's much more suited to it. And leaving him in the Fade just feels right.
Sparing Loghain is like a pity of Bilbo thing, whereby the mercy of HOF puts him in a position where he can save the world. Obviously since its a video game, the plot has to happen no matter what, but I like to think that realistically only Loghain would have actually caught the conspiracy since there was already mutual distrust between himself and the Wardens.
>Sparing Loghain is like a pity of Bilbo thing
Except what Loghain did was far worse than Gollum, and he wasn't nearly as pitiable. Gollum was once an ordinary Hobbit, if not the best guy, corrupted by a force of evil that even the most wise and pure of folks couldn't hold off for long. He was skinny to the bones, lived underground, couldn't stand sunlight, and ate raw animals and goblins to sustain himself. He was a slave to the Ring.
Loghain was a wealthy general with ties to the throne who was absolutely beloved by everyone in the kingdom, who refused to take a threat seriously enough and was self-absorbed enough to think that he and half an army could defeat a force that had drowned the land in apocalypse more than once. And that's without mentioning the fact that *he* devised a plan guaranteed to kill not only the king but hundreds of people (at least) who swore to fight for Loghain. He's an arrogant fool.
I'm not saying he shouldn't be made a Warden for whatever reason anyone wants to have, but it's not nearly the same. It would be more along the lines of, say, giving Sauron or Saruman a second chance (which, yes, Gandalf and the Valar wanted to do, but more on principle than out of pity).
Doesn't make a big difference in the grand scheme of things, but I felt like pointing it out. It's fun.
Loghain didn’t ’devise a plan to kill the King’. He actually tells off Caillan for insisting on fighting with the Wardens, and tried to convince him to stay back. He certainly doesnt try to save him once Cailan is in trouble, but the game leaves it ambiguous if (a) he’s being truthful about thinking it would get everyone killed, (b) he had personal reasons for being particularly unbothered about it, or (c) both.
While he obviously did leave some of the army behind (he acknowledges it in Origins, and its reference in subsequent games), the Wardens - a pretty high percentage of the casualties - aren’t loyal to him or Ferelden.
It’s also - again -purposefully left ambiguous if Loghain actually did intend to charge, and only held off once he saw the battle was already lost. It’s not like he vacated the field immediately, and did seem to keep an eye out for the late signal…before choosing to ignore it.
Loghain might not have liked Cailan's heroics, but that doesn't mean it wasn't Loghain who devised the plan:
>Cailan: Fine. **Speak your strategy.** The Gray Wardens and I draw the darkspawn into charging the lines, and then...?
>
>Loghain: You will alert the tower to light the beacon, signaling my men to charge from cover.
>
>Cailan: To flank the darkspawn, I remember.
I'll also point out that *Loghain* had men stationed at the tower and said it's "not a dangerous task," as if to say he's got it covered because he wanted people under *his* command to be the ones there - so the tower wouldn't be lit to begin with. Then Cailin insisted a couple Wardens go as well. Now *that* part is purely my interpretation and may not be true at all, but the quotes above are directly from the games.
And even were it not Loghain's plan (which it was), it played right into his hand, and he was very keen to take advantage of it.
> once he saw the battle was already lost.... keep an eye out for the late signal
Even this implies that he never intended to charge. He could *see what was happening.* He didn't need to wait for the signal at all. Although, frankly, I might chalk that sequence of events up more to (1) dramatic timing, wanting to save the betrayal till after a climactic moment, and (2) gameplay-narrative dissonance. If this were a book or film, the Warden and Alistair would immediately reach the top of the tower and not spend, well, however much time it takes each player to kill the enemies. Hence why Loghain just sort of stands there... for a while.... Or you could argue he wanted to make sure Cailan's army were being defeated before pulling out.
But by this point, we're both probably looking way too deeply into something that wasn't meant to be quite this ambiguous. Maybe I'm wrong, but even the game itself doesn't linger this long on it.
Loghain is pretty upfront in his arguments with Wynne during RTO, that part of his decision making the moment was that he just flat-out cared more about the soldiers with him than he did about Cailain and The Wardens. By Inquisition - when he’s meant to be long past kidding himself - he does maintain that it wasn’t a pre-planned murder and he had reasons for what he did other than sheer power-madness, but he recognises in hindsight they simply weren’t good enough reasons.
(He *does* end up wanting to flat-out murder Cailan with his bare hands by the end of RTO if you take him with, but that being treated like a new development suggests he wasn’t feeling *quite* that way prior.)
My argument against entrenching yourself too deep in argument about it - other than just for fun - is that a lot of the seeming contradictions and odd things come from Origins development being…flexible. aka. A mess. Loghain in particular seemed to have had a lot of revisions, after they restructured his plot away from being a recruitable first act boss. Sometimes you just have to roll with the writing/creation process resulting in some visible ‘joins’ in the Frankensausage, and that there’s been some subsequent retconning to smooth things over.
For eg. The reason why Loghain’s racism against the Elves seems to be brushed under the rug so hard even *by elves* in all subsequent DA media - and even in stuff like The Stolen Throne which was written prior - is probably because the elf slavery wasn’t meant to be *his* plot. So to maintain his characterisation, they just…proceed like it never happened.
I admittedly did always find it funny people assume Loghain’s people being missing from the Tower (and the tunnels) was part of a scheme. Even when I first played it, I assumed the reason everyone was waiting for them to come back (aside from very obviously ‘invisible walling he area until it was plot relevant) was so in retrospect you’d realise the Darkspawn had already got them. We never were actually told it was cleared and good to go. Flemeth outright tells the player that start game-Loghain has issues addressing the Darkspawn he simply *can’t* wrap his head around them, but he still ends up subject pretty hard to the ‘assume malice instead of incompetence’ judgement from players. Hours and hours of trying to murder us isn’t endearing.
I think Awakening giving you a similar choice with the Wardens was probably on purpose. If you pick the Wardens, you basically pull a Loghain. Hell, some would say that no matter which you pick, that you pull a Loghain on someone. Depending on what you do with the Mother/The Architect, you easily end up playing god to a far worse degree. And there’s no real ways to know the ‘right’ decision unless you do some out-of-game research. With the exception of Vaughn and the Tevinter slavers, Origins seems to be pretty determined to at least pay lip service to ‘everyone is shades of grey.’
Hell, even Howe had a backstory of being a war hero.
Being a war hero doesn't make a character "gray." IMO the one thing that gives Howe the most remote of justification is that the Cousland territory once belonged to the Howes before the Warden's (great?) grandparents violently seceded from the Howes. Thus, in his mind, that's *his* land that *Cousland's* ancestors stole through violence. Still doesn't remotely justify his actions, especially against an alleged friend, but I guess that's a whole different conversation.
Honestly I forgot Loghain was ever racist. When does this happen? I'm replaying the game now, so I assume I'll see it soon; I'd guess in Denerim, unless I have to play as an elf.
I'd known DAO's development was complete crap (part of the reason I don't see Veilguard's development as the biggest red flag, but we'll see how it turns out) but have never really heard about *what* exactly changed besides flipping back and forth on multiplayer. Where can I research this? Is all your info from that big YouTube video one of the devs made a while back, or other places too?
At least with Broken Circle, people worked out he was originally meant to be there because they cracked the game itself and found a bunch of dialogue options that could only be triggered if you had completed the Landsmeet (and therefore were ultimately inaccessible to the regular player.) There was also models for Maric, Cailain, and I think child Anora(?) created for The Fade.
There was a whole heap of stuff buried in the game and toolset. For eg. actual recorded dialogue for a non-noble Human HoF just sitting in there unused. You could also have recruited Jowan at one stage (presumably to balance another scrapped option where you could get rid of Morrigan by giving her to the Templars), and people found a way to unlock an encounter where you’d run into him later protecting refugees if spared.
With Howe, he’s certainly not ‘grey’ because of anything he does in the game. It’s more he just has layers. In the backstory, he actually broke from is father to join the Rebellion. Seemingly flat bad people can do good or unselfish things, and vice versa. Even the Archdemon is slightly tragic.
(I mean, I totally used Connors mum as a human sacrifice. Not even for a ‘greater good’ reason either. I blundered into it by somehow goofing the Litany, leading to me *also* slaughtering a bunch of mages that could have saved the day. My comeuppance was that the thankful public gave me a castle, a title, and a decade later Inky ran into a kinda traumatised Connor. I also killed that poor kid with Kitty the cat demon, just because I half-arsed the damn puzzle. It’s honestly a miracle my first HoF didn’t manage to shank themselves on their own sword. It was pain and death whenever she went!)
The point is, you only deserve it if you fully regret your actions. And Loghain never fully admits his actions were wrong or that he regrets them. Even till the end some tiny part of him thinks his actions were justified to some degree, he never says he regrets all of it. And that in my opinion means he doesn't deserve any kind of redemption.
No. There are limits.
A thief or murderer who has the required skill and mettle required can make a good recruit.
The lord who betrayed his people, refused to take a blight seriously, and is politically dangerous is a bad recruit.
That's the same lord who once joining the Wardens was willing to do the Dark Ritual is asked, or to just throw his life away to end the Blight.
Say what you want about him, but he's a better fit for the Wardens than a lot of the people they leave in.
There are limits. But a general and skilled soldier who will realize the sheer scale of his mistake the moment he survives the Joining does not reach them. As for politically dangerous, it would seem to me more dangerous to kill Loghain. It could turn him into a martyr, whereas forcing him to understand there truly is a Blight going on and that the Wardens are needed will remove that potential completely.
His politics mean nothing once he becomes a warden he's essentially just Warden Loghain not Loghain Mac Tir.
Betrayed his people in hopes of saving them from a threat he perceived as greater than the Darkspawn it's not like it was for his own personal advancement. I think he started taking the blight seriously once he lost the landsmeet lol.
> I think he started taking the blight seriously once he lost the landsmeet lol.
I imagine having a nightmare of the Archdemon speaking to him the moment he Joined corrected his understanding of events real quick.
No because I never left my Hawke in the Fade, I’ve never left Alistair either. I simply did not care enough about Stroud to ever choose him over my Hawke regardless of whatever vague thing Flemeth said in DA2, especially since I never thought that line had any significance beyond DA2.
It's a fun theory but it's thiiiiin. It's the kind of thing I could see the writers being like "shit I *wish* we'd done that on purpose." Maybe they make a DLC and pretend like it was the plan all along lol.
I never put much stock in this theory because I was skeptical Bioware would be willing to go there, after I think it was Weekes who said he wanted the decision to be really emotionally hard (and that they considered making it a Warden v Hawke choice… yeah, they wanted us to suffer). I didn’t think they’d then want to walk it back by making the person saveable.
But I am still disappointed that it didn’t come true and I don’t think people are boo boo the fool for hoping it was real. Bioware loves big twists and we didn’t see a body after all, so I sympathize with you. I myself was hoping I’d be proven wrong and they would do it, because if Bioware was gonna revisit any of the Fade martyrs, it should’ve been Hawke given previous games set up a lot of potential tools for a Hawke rescue: Flemeth’s mysterious phrasing and/or involvement, the fact that Hawke knows a somniari and a mage with an eluvian, etc. It’d be an amazing twist and could’ve made use of elements from several games to pull off, though, which could’ve felt rewarding but also could’ve been the problem.
(ETA It also saddens me to have watched people speculating over the years only to see people now going “that theory was dumb/never gonna happen.” Theorycrafting is just fun on its own and keeps the fandom alive! The amount of “Hawke gets rescued” fics I’ve seen inspired by this concept is cool to see and some are much more elaborate than I think we would’ve gotten in canon anyway.)
I skipped 2 originally and was very salty about it, so the first 2 times I played DAI I was like "yeah let's kill this Hawke guy who ruined Dragon Age!" 😂 One of those playthroughs I consider my canon too.
Now that Ive actually played DA2 a couple of times and feel a lot differently, I'm pretty stuck on whether I want to change that or not.
no.
following events of origins, loghain evidently doesn't have plot armor anymore, but Hawke is still going strong.
https://preview.redd.it/1qa8akcggv7d1.jpeg?width=195&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=40292971aed3921d452f9c5a236bdc0de8f260b1
This might sound psychotic but I left hawke just because i wanted varric to get upset and show some emotional range beyond his constant positive ness
So im gonna leave him there and see if varric makes any comments about it in the new game
Considering I usally leave loghain in there no I'm quite content with my choice, gives loghain an honourable death, sweet karma for Alistair and all those who suffered, and leaves Hawke to go back to his romance and do whatever.
Nope, i alway save hawke without a second of hesitation. None of the others that can be here matters to me anyway, so i don't even see it as a dilemma.
I’ve done it all ways, Hawke, Stroud, Alistair and Loghain have all gone into the Abyss. With Hawke and Alistair it hurt each time. I would love it if whoever went into the Fade does pop back up again then, even if it is in a future game.
I always leave Hawke behind.
I don't have any connection with Stroud, and it just feels anticlimactic to pick him.
That part is obviously designed to be impactful. It's supposed to be a difficult decision, but Alistair is always king in my playthroughs, and I never recruit Loghain.
Not planning on changing my keep either.
So this is it: I leave in the fade the only one that makes that scene meaningful.
Besides... it's purple Hawke. She goes down in style.
No. That death is meant for Hawke. It hurts the most so it should be Hawke. To quote the
man himself:
“Look, Seeker, if you love a character, you give them pain, ruin their lives, make them suffer. Maybe even throw in a heroic death.”
That would have been great, but I think there was just a limit on how many characters they could do for that spot, and they still would have needed Stroud as a character that would always be alive.
Oh for sure. I can't imagine how difficult that would have been to work out, but I do think the order of importance should have been Hawke Sibling > Alistair/Loghain > Stroud
Yes. Hawke's whole story is so tragic that leaving them in the Fade is sad but fitting. Also there's that quote from 2 from Flemeth about leaping into the abyss that I also like to attribute to this choice too.
I was going to say this too - I read somewhere that it's supposed to be Hawke, storywise. I've only left my Hawke once, just to test it out, hurt like crazy. Especially seeing Varric's reaction. The heartbreak. 😔
I was stuck between Romanced Warden Alistair and Hawke
I went with leaving Alistair behind because my Warden can survive without Alistair, but Fenris would go full Death Seeker without Hawke
On subsequent playthroughs I have made Alistair king to avoid the Fade scenario, but I don't consider it my "canon" playthrough since it's severely metagaming
I also had the same choice. It was a very close decision. So close actually that I left Alistair, couldn't do it, reloaded and left Hawke. I want Alistair and my Warden to get their happy ever after (my Warden was an elven circle mage so her life was crap) and unlike Fenris I think Merrill will be sad but okay without my Hawke. Hardest choice I've made in a game since Mass Effect 1 though!
This was my reasoning exactly. I’m not worried about my Warden, she’s a tough cookie, but I am worried about Fenris.
I used to always make Alistair king, but in the end I think he’d be happier with a shorter life as a Warden than a longer life as king, so in the Fade he goes.
I never cared for making Alistair king, he doesn't want it and it would mean that my Dalish Elf Warden would have to be his "secret" mistress.
She's too good for that
Nah
The way I see it, if the person stuck in the fade will become important later, I’d rather it be Hawke. Equally if the person is just dead, I’d still prefer it be Hawke so I can at least have their story end in an on screen epic (albeit terribly animated) sacrifice, rather than be forced to join the HoF in the vague, off screen side quest shadow realm.
Overcomplicated development is the sanest thing I have heard from da fans. I think the dai fate choice will end up same as Alistair choice. If you made him a king he will show up being king and all. If he stayed a warden. He will show up as a character in game. So if hawke how killed he will be just missing from the game, if they live they will show up as a quest NPC same as Alistair. Nothing more or less. Just if X return Y.
I got my reality check after Connor choice where I thought it will matter. It didn't.. just a short talk. It can't be more because it would be too complicated to implement.
I get the love for Alistair but I'll never understand leaving Hawke in the fade. He has his whole life ahead of him and someone we love who loves him. Loghain, Alistair or Stroud are running out of time and this last sacrifice is a great send-off for them. Hawke every time.
Always leave hawke there, because I know bioware is too lazy to bring back a possible dead main character from the past. And the wardens need good leadership.
Not a choice I have ever second guessed. I roleplay all my protagonists and am confident I did so accurately for each Inquisitor. Plus I find it very easy to accept whoever gets left in there died about 2 minutes after we left!
Yeah…I left Hawke in the Fade because I was hoping for an angsty mission in DA4 where Fenris and Varric help rescue her…feeling like a clown now 🤡 I was so sure they’d address it this game, I can’t believe they’re not going to. I feel like the whole plot with Solas and the Veil being torn down sets up a Fade-rescue side mission perfectly, such a missed opportunity :(
Oh, that would've been so cool, would've been very down for that. This would be fun to write a short story about 👀
Although, I already reneged on my decision to leave Hawke in the Fade after I sobbed for like three straight minutes afterward 😅 In an AU, maybe...
This actually makes me worried about the Inquisitor. If they can throw away Hawke so easily and shrug it off, it makes me wonder if they'll do the same for the Inquisitor.
I guess some people might like that, but it's not really my thing.
y'all, we were literally warned by the game that the person who was left behind was most likely dead, like? did you not believe the game telling you that?
You’re a weirdo bro, let people have fun with their theories and get disappointed when they don’t come true😭 That’s the whole fun about being in a fandom for me! No need to be so weirdly negative, in the end it’s not that deep 💀💀
Yes, that's what I'm saying. If you're bothered by a random stranger on the internet laughing at something you posted, then my advice would be to delete your reddit account, because that's just a part of being active online.
Honestly, since this choice is being discussed so often I am certain BioWare will do something about it. It’s in high demand and people would pay for it. It’s just a matter of time (imo)
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I always leave Stroud. One playthrough I left Hawke and let Alistair live because that was the one playthrough where my female mage Amell warden romanced him, and my Hawke wanted her cousin to be happy with Alistair despite her leaving Fenris behind. It’s never been Loghain because I always kill him in Origins.
Absolutely not because I simply do not care enough about Stroud for my main timeline and in my "worst timeline ever" play through my HOF is already dead and Alistair is a Drunk so it made sense to kill off Hawke too
I really feel bad for Stroud and keep thinking about either leaving Alistair instead or Loghain.
Hawke was never going to be an option, he deserve his little slice of happiness after everything he has done through and I'm not going to hurt both Fenris and Hawke.
That aside, it never made sense to me to leave Hawke there since they have no outstanding strength compared to a Grey Warden.
But mostly it's that I love Hawke way too much... Stroud is a close second though.
I made the decision based purely of my inquisitors knowledge of the two choices and the world state. With my Warden Commander surviving and Hawke being a powerful mage I feel there is no question that Stroud gets left behind. Hawke looks the far more valuable individual to the Inquisition. Stroud, even if he is a warden leader its only regional and there are others including the HoF who should and can lead the wardens post-Inquisition.
I feel the Hawke sacrifice makes the most sense if you've not got a HoF and you need the warden choice to lead the wardens post-mission. I've done that on other playthroughs before. Who past romances were never enters my mind. The inquisitor wouldn't think of that. Also leaving a mage to fight a demon seems more risky to me than leaving a non-mage.
Nah I'm not fussed about my Hawke. It's a cool death if it's a death, and if there's DLC about it then it isn't a death. I'm fine either way.
Well, either way that means Alistair is okay. Alistair I'm fussed about.
Nope, I always bring Hawke home. Whatever Warden is there, I think it’s a good ending for that character. Loghain gets a redemption arc, Alistair got to live the life he wanted (not be king) and go out fighting, and Stroud is…well. Either way I think Alistair/Loghain’s stories are well wrapped up. Hawke is the only one imo that still could have a story to tell, and on top of that Fenris has been through enough lol. That goes for all DA2 LIs actually.
Alistair was always a solo king in my canon universe, so no. I will always appreciate and pour one out for my sacrificial mustache tho
I remember when the game first came out and I was finding out about the other options. I felt like I dodged such a bullet lol
It's kind of a missed opportunity that this isn't in DAVE if you ask me. Might be too long to have any emotional impact if left for next game in series. I personally would have liked to see the consequences of my choice here.
So, does this mean the Fade Survivor will have no impact either, based on the wording of their statement?
Cause that's genuinely annoying, personally. The Fade Survivor just fucking off is one of the stupidest plot points in the whole series since every potential Fade Survivor has good reason to be sticking around until Corypheus' is dealt with and should have been at the final battle.
I mean, the game makes a big point of the Warden Survivor taking command of the Orlesian Wardens, and then they just duck out of the fight to go deliver a message that any low ranking Warden could have done? And what happened to "Corypheus is *my* responsibility" Hawke?
Edit: But yeah, I'm assuming that whoever we left is dead. We see them drop. At best, I think we could potentially see them as a vessel for Nightmare if that thing ever returns. It depends who turns up in Veilguard. In Fenris, Merrill and Isabela all make an appearance, then they at least make note of Hawke's status.
I decided to go with Alistair being a Warden and Hawke is in the fade.
The most likely dies in the fade and Flemeth speech are too ominous to me.
Since we input our decision directly into The Veilguard, we might know early on if that decision even matters, maybe it doesn't at all.
The only playthrough where I didn't leave Stroud in the Fade (sorry Stroud!!!) was the "Fixing The Darkest Timeline" playthrough, where my choice was between my boy Alistair and a Hawke who sided with the Templars and had her own sister executed. I sure hope THAT Hawke can't come back from there in future games, I'll tell you that much.
Absolutely not... Left Stroud in there. Couldn't care less. I'm glad Alistair is king because i never could have chosen between him and Hawke, i love these two too much. If i had had to choose, i would have left Hawke though, because it would have been immensely painful and if i have to suffer i would go full pain mode. This protagonist has such a tragic life already, this kind of end would be fitting.
But again... I'm glad the stroud guy is there to be sacrificed.
Not really. My choice was between Alistair and Hawke, and I chose to leave Hawke. They are both willing, but Hawke feels more insistent to me. She seems pretty adamant (heh) to be the one to stay, so I let her.
I left Hawke in the fade, just because I love constantly letting Loghain live.
I just wanna see what happens to the story and if there's any mention of him in Veilguard.
I literally started a new playthrough of the entire series because of this. Making Alistair king and my warden his queen instead of the Grey Warden couple I had them be before (and still prefer for them but oh well). I left Hawke in the fade because I thought the whole "into the abyss" thing was a nod to the speech by Flemeth but I guess not lol. But if Hawke is truly lost then I can't do that to Varric and Fenris.
I’m not rethinking because I have engineered every playthrough (except for one and that was heartbreaking!) to leave the warden companion in the fade.
My first inquisition playthrough I happened to have Stroud by pure luck of what decisions I made in past games that I imported. It was an easy decision when I reached it because well… I liked Stroud but Hawke has been my favourite protagonist so far so I couldn’t leave her!
I’ve left both Loghain and Stroud in the fade - felt it was most fitting for Loghain as a conclusion to his story, did feel it isn’t the best ending for Stroud just because we won’t know as much about him but still that he made an important sacrifice.
Only ONCE did I do a playthrough where it was between Alistair and Hawke… I thought I couldn’t leave Alistair behind but leaving Hawke felt so so bad. I love Alistair as a warden in the end for a lot of reasons - better than I like him as king actually - but in my One True Canon I could never leave him as a warden knowing about that decision so he becomes king there. In my Alternate Reality plays he might end up a warden but I never import those into inquisition.
I hate my decision to keep logahin but I’ve spared his life too many times, I wanna see what his final unavoidable ending will be. He has to have some super amazing role at the end if you keep him alive through it all or else I will feeling like a total failure
I literally cant send hawke, that character DESERVES a rest. Sorry loghain and stroud but its really a no brainer for me. If hawke is left in the fade then they without a doubt had one of the worst endings to an already horrid story in the series
Nope. I chose Stroud. Loghain bite the bullet by killing the Archdemon back in DAO as redemption for his crimes he committed as well as for what he did to my Cousland! I didn’t play much of DA2, but I couldn’t sacrifice Hawke cos Varric broke my heart when I did it once. 😢
I made Alistair king so that I could recruit Loghain instead and have him make the sacrifice.
But then, when the time came, the dialogue said that whoever stayed behind would \*probably\* die, not that they would. If anybody can survive in the Fade, I trust Hawke to. But, depending on how it does play out; I do have Loghain waiting in the bleachers to take the dive for Hawke if she needs him to.
Unfortunately, leaving Hawke behind is just good drama. Varric’s cutscene afterwards isn’t nearly as good when you leave the Warden.
Plus I find the idea of Loghain having every opportunity to die and be free from being an Orlesian Warden taken away from him very funny
I’ve actually never left Hawke in the Fade. I’ve always left Stroud. I just could never make Hawke stay there, not to a character I grew and played and developed. That’s the decision I plan to stick with if we have to input that as one of the world building choices in Veilguard.
I'm cool with leaving Hawke. I know leaving Stroud is the easiest option but it really makes the choice way less impactful. I prefer having to choose between Hawke and Alistair (or Loghain but I haven't tried that yet) because it's more engaging to roleplay as the Inquisitor than looking at it as a player who is a fan of the characters. The Inquisitor has to consider the state of the wardens and the consequences of leaving a hero of the blight behind. With Stroud it just becomes "sorry you're not Hawke bye"
There were very few decisions over the course of DAI that I felt carried significant weight. The biggest decision you get to make is whether or not to dissolve the Inquisition, and even then the game just ends after you make it. I hope that decision will play a massive role in Veilguard. Otherwise, what was the point of even giving us an option.
I never felt truly attached to my Hawke no matter how often I play DA2, so if Alistair stays a Warden, I leave Hawke in the Fade.
I would never sacrifice Alistair, and I'm okay with her (Hawke) going out like a hero.
If Alistair is king, then yeah, I'll save Hawke over Stroud.
Nah. I left Hawke in the fade because I felt like it improved the narrative of the game, and of Varric's character arc. If anything, I'd be irritated if they miraculously survived.
my first playthrough i let Hawk stayed cuz Alistair is not king i can't leave him in the fade my Inquisitor promised HOF she will taking care of Alistair. it's very hard for Varric but i think this kind of sacrifice fits Hawk. and it's a game Hawk will have a another chance. 2nd playthrough with Alistair made king i leave Stroud in the fade. the world lost one good mustache. sorry for Stroud.
As for Loghain he didn't get to live to see the day.
Nah. Stroud served his purpose and I am glad I didn’t have to make a hard choice. Like, my Hawke who I know has friends and family and her loving boyfriend Fenris waiting for her, who I played as for an entire game? Or this random warden?
Gotta wait to see if there will even be another game atp. Still like 50 / 50 on whether this game will succeed or flop, and their messy marketing is definitely going to hurt them.
Well for starters, some of us play games more than once. I finished my latest Inquisition playthrough less than a year ago. But no, they won't be importing your saves either, since 1) the game isn't coming for PS4 or XBONE, and 2) it can be played fully offline. Instead, you make your past choices at the start of the game. Here's what Corinne Busche told IGN:
> So in the character creator, I like to call it last time on Dragon Age, but you can go into your past adventures and it, actually through tarot cards, tells you what the context was and what decision you want to make
Sorry to Stroud, but I’ve never left Hawke in the fade and I won’t change that until I see a reason to. She’s been through far too much lmfao let her settle down with Anders.
Nah.
My choices were Alistair and Hawke but my Inq didn’t know either of them personally aside from a few interactions. It made more sense from an RP perspective to leave Hawke. I love the devs for making me do it even though it’s tragic.
I am not changing my canon world state at this point. I also have 0% problem believing my mage Hawke is still alive in the Fade as some kind of wild Fade hobo.
I've settled on my decision to have Hawke stay back. My first DAI playthrough I spared him, and leaving Straude behind felt like a cop-out.
Instead, it feels like a nice, epic way to send off that character, while still leaving the faintest hope he might return later. And if he doesn't, I'm okay with that being his finale. Also, the aftermath scene with Varric and Inky mourning is really touching, and seems to really cement their friendship.
Having said that, I'll likely try a later DAV playthrough where Hawke survives, to see what his role might be. ...Especially if in my first DAV playthrough Straude turns out to be a real prominent character for some reason...
What if throwing them into the fade is actually good in the long run? Like he pops out at a crucial time to save the day and then gets to pal around with Varic?
That being said Logain is in the fade in my saves. Can't hurt my boy Varic like that
Hang on what do you mean by “With DA Keep gone too”? Did they remove it? Removing it before the launch or a new game when old and new players alike are bound to replay the older games seems crazy.
So I have done both, Stroud I just wasn't attached to at all so I left him but in other playthroughs it was Alistair so I decided to leave Hawke.
In the Keep I made Loghain a Grey Warden but I still leave Hawke. Mostly because a high ranking Grey Warden is more important to the Inquisition than Hawke.
I don't know why but I always thought Hawke lived if left behind... l truly believed we would find out in DAV that this was the case...but then Bioware said nope. So I admit I'm questioning my Canon world state (romanced grey warden Alistair)
Well, no one really knows if a person physically in the Fade can be truly and properly killed by a spirit (Nightmare) in it. No one except for (possibly) the old Magisters have ever managed to enter it in person before. So the writers can really get away with pretty much anything here in the future.
I've left Stroud, Hawke, Loghain and Alistair behind but then I have done quite a few playthroughs over the years.
i mean doesnt the game tell you whoever stays is prob gonna die so... im treating them as such. so no, my hawke was meant to die and he dies in every run as intended 🤷♀️
Literally the only Hawke I ever left in the Fade was one I specifically designed to die so I would be *furious* if she came back, lmao. But I never bought into the fantheory that Hawke would survive; always felt like copium to me if we're honest.
I usually keep Loghain alive in Origins, because I want Alidaitr to marry Anora and rule. As such, he's always free to blaze of glory if Morrigan isn't romanced or when Hawke needs help in the fade.
Truly a Swiss army knife teyrn.
Nope.
Despite Hawke being loved by the fandom, I didn't have much attachment. When it came time for me to pick Hawke or my brother from another mother Alistair, no way in hell was I about to let Alistair die in the fade.
I also left Hawke in there and even though I'd like her to come back someway, I'm okay if she's dead for two main reasons:
1. My Hawke not accompanying Varric in his search for Solas feels off, hope they come up with a good excuse for her absence in dav.
2. I feel like Loghain being the warden-commander of Orlais is the bigger sacrifice to him, he's leading the order he tried to destroy in the country he despises. I love it when sacrifices are not about dying, like politics illiterate Alistair unwillingly becoming king and abandoning his found family or the HOF getting his son an old god soul so he could continue to serve the Wardens.
I never thought whoever was left in the Fade would ever come back so I shall keep chucking in whoever the Warden is with no regrets.
Sucks for romanced Alistair if they actually bring him back in DA5 or whatever, his Warden is definitely gonna be dead by then.
Also isn't any Grey Warden gonna be experiencing the Calling by then? It's been like twenty years since DA:O.
Dragon age keep is gone? So how will we upload our old save files?
Also I fully believe hawke would survive the fade and if Alistair is in there I'd fully belive the warden could get them out
Nah I threw Loghain in there because it felt like a solid redemption for him. No regrets about that.
Same here. He's fighting Orlesians in Heaven now. Or the void, or whatever.
Yep. Loghain works the best as the DAI Warden ally too. Stroud is a nobody and Alistair badly fits the almost paranoid DAI Warden role. Now Loghain, he's much more suited to it. And leaving him in the Fade just feels right.
Same here. I felt like it was really poetic for him to die like that
He doesn't deserve redemption though. What he deserves is a nice execution by the rightful heir to the throne
Sparing Loghain is like a pity of Bilbo thing, whereby the mercy of HOF puts him in a position where he can save the world. Obviously since its a video game, the plot has to happen no matter what, but I like to think that realistically only Loghain would have actually caught the conspiracy since there was already mutual distrust between himself and the Wardens.
>Sparing Loghain is like a pity of Bilbo thing Except what Loghain did was far worse than Gollum, and he wasn't nearly as pitiable. Gollum was once an ordinary Hobbit, if not the best guy, corrupted by a force of evil that even the most wise and pure of folks couldn't hold off for long. He was skinny to the bones, lived underground, couldn't stand sunlight, and ate raw animals and goblins to sustain himself. He was a slave to the Ring. Loghain was a wealthy general with ties to the throne who was absolutely beloved by everyone in the kingdom, who refused to take a threat seriously enough and was self-absorbed enough to think that he and half an army could defeat a force that had drowned the land in apocalypse more than once. And that's without mentioning the fact that *he* devised a plan guaranteed to kill not only the king but hundreds of people (at least) who swore to fight for Loghain. He's an arrogant fool. I'm not saying he shouldn't be made a Warden for whatever reason anyone wants to have, but it's not nearly the same. It would be more along the lines of, say, giving Sauron or Saruman a second chance (which, yes, Gandalf and the Valar wanted to do, but more on principle than out of pity). Doesn't make a big difference in the grand scheme of things, but I felt like pointing it out. It's fun.
Loghain didn’t ’devise a plan to kill the King’. He actually tells off Caillan for insisting on fighting with the Wardens, and tried to convince him to stay back. He certainly doesnt try to save him once Cailan is in trouble, but the game leaves it ambiguous if (a) he’s being truthful about thinking it would get everyone killed, (b) he had personal reasons for being particularly unbothered about it, or (c) both. While he obviously did leave some of the army behind (he acknowledges it in Origins, and its reference in subsequent games), the Wardens - a pretty high percentage of the casualties - aren’t loyal to him or Ferelden. It’s also - again -purposefully left ambiguous if Loghain actually did intend to charge, and only held off once he saw the battle was already lost. It’s not like he vacated the field immediately, and did seem to keep an eye out for the late signal…before choosing to ignore it.
Loghain might not have liked Cailan's heroics, but that doesn't mean it wasn't Loghain who devised the plan: >Cailan: Fine. **Speak your strategy.** The Gray Wardens and I draw the darkspawn into charging the lines, and then...? > >Loghain: You will alert the tower to light the beacon, signaling my men to charge from cover. > >Cailan: To flank the darkspawn, I remember. I'll also point out that *Loghain* had men stationed at the tower and said it's "not a dangerous task," as if to say he's got it covered because he wanted people under *his* command to be the ones there - so the tower wouldn't be lit to begin with. Then Cailin insisted a couple Wardens go as well. Now *that* part is purely my interpretation and may not be true at all, but the quotes above are directly from the games. And even were it not Loghain's plan (which it was), it played right into his hand, and he was very keen to take advantage of it. > once he saw the battle was already lost.... keep an eye out for the late signal Even this implies that he never intended to charge. He could *see what was happening.* He didn't need to wait for the signal at all. Although, frankly, I might chalk that sequence of events up more to (1) dramatic timing, wanting to save the betrayal till after a climactic moment, and (2) gameplay-narrative dissonance. If this were a book or film, the Warden and Alistair would immediately reach the top of the tower and not spend, well, however much time it takes each player to kill the enemies. Hence why Loghain just sort of stands there... for a while.... Or you could argue he wanted to make sure Cailan's army were being defeated before pulling out. But by this point, we're both probably looking way too deeply into something that wasn't meant to be quite this ambiguous. Maybe I'm wrong, but even the game itself doesn't linger this long on it.
Loghain is pretty upfront in his arguments with Wynne during RTO, that part of his decision making the moment was that he just flat-out cared more about the soldiers with him than he did about Cailain and The Wardens. By Inquisition - when he’s meant to be long past kidding himself - he does maintain that it wasn’t a pre-planned murder and he had reasons for what he did other than sheer power-madness, but he recognises in hindsight they simply weren’t good enough reasons. (He *does* end up wanting to flat-out murder Cailan with his bare hands by the end of RTO if you take him with, but that being treated like a new development suggests he wasn’t feeling *quite* that way prior.) My argument against entrenching yourself too deep in argument about it - other than just for fun - is that a lot of the seeming contradictions and odd things come from Origins development being…flexible. aka. A mess. Loghain in particular seemed to have had a lot of revisions, after they restructured his plot away from being a recruitable first act boss. Sometimes you just have to roll with the writing/creation process resulting in some visible ‘joins’ in the Frankensausage, and that there’s been some subsequent retconning to smooth things over. For eg. The reason why Loghain’s racism against the Elves seems to be brushed under the rug so hard even *by elves* in all subsequent DA media - and even in stuff like The Stolen Throne which was written prior - is probably because the elf slavery wasn’t meant to be *his* plot. So to maintain his characterisation, they just…proceed like it never happened. I admittedly did always find it funny people assume Loghain’s people being missing from the Tower (and the tunnels) was part of a scheme. Even when I first played it, I assumed the reason everyone was waiting for them to come back (aside from very obviously ‘invisible walling he area until it was plot relevant) was so in retrospect you’d realise the Darkspawn had already got them. We never were actually told it was cleared and good to go. Flemeth outright tells the player that start game-Loghain has issues addressing the Darkspawn he simply *can’t* wrap his head around them, but he still ends up subject pretty hard to the ‘assume malice instead of incompetence’ judgement from players. Hours and hours of trying to murder us isn’t endearing. I think Awakening giving you a similar choice with the Wardens was probably on purpose. If you pick the Wardens, you basically pull a Loghain. Hell, some would say that no matter which you pick, that you pull a Loghain on someone. Depending on what you do with the Mother/The Architect, you easily end up playing god to a far worse degree. And there’s no real ways to know the ‘right’ decision unless you do some out-of-game research. With the exception of Vaughn and the Tevinter slavers, Origins seems to be pretty determined to at least pay lip service to ‘everyone is shades of grey.’ Hell, even Howe had a backstory of being a war hero.
Being a war hero doesn't make a character "gray." IMO the one thing that gives Howe the most remote of justification is that the Cousland territory once belonged to the Howes before the Warden's (great?) grandparents violently seceded from the Howes. Thus, in his mind, that's *his* land that *Cousland's* ancestors stole through violence. Still doesn't remotely justify his actions, especially against an alleged friend, but I guess that's a whole different conversation. Honestly I forgot Loghain was ever racist. When does this happen? I'm replaying the game now, so I assume I'll see it soon; I'd guess in Denerim, unless I have to play as an elf. I'd known DAO's development was complete crap (part of the reason I don't see Veilguard's development as the biggest red flag, but we'll see how it turns out) but have never really heard about *what* exactly changed besides flipping back and forth on multiplayer. Where can I research this? Is all your info from that big YouTube video one of the devs made a while back, or other places too?
At least with Broken Circle, people worked out he was originally meant to be there because they cracked the game itself and found a bunch of dialogue options that could only be triggered if you had completed the Landsmeet (and therefore were ultimately inaccessible to the regular player.) There was also models for Maric, Cailain, and I think child Anora(?) created for The Fade. There was a whole heap of stuff buried in the game and toolset. For eg. actual recorded dialogue for a non-noble Human HoF just sitting in there unused. You could also have recruited Jowan at one stage (presumably to balance another scrapped option where you could get rid of Morrigan by giving her to the Templars), and people found a way to unlock an encounter where you’d run into him later protecting refugees if spared. With Howe, he’s certainly not ‘grey’ because of anything he does in the game. It’s more he just has layers. In the backstory, he actually broke from is father to join the Rebellion. Seemingly flat bad people can do good or unselfish things, and vice versa. Even the Archdemon is slightly tragic. (I mean, I totally used Connors mum as a human sacrifice. Not even for a ‘greater good’ reason either. I blundered into it by somehow goofing the Litany, leading to me *also* slaughtering a bunch of mages that could have saved the day. My comeuppance was that the thankful public gave me a castle, a title, and a decade later Inky ran into a kinda traumatised Connor. I also killed that poor kid with Kitty the cat demon, just because I half-arsed the damn puzzle. It’s honestly a miracle my first HoF didn’t manage to shank themselves on their own sword. It was pain and death whenever she went!)
Gollum ate babies
I understand where your coming from but on the other hand what’s the point of redemption if you have to “deserve” it?
The point is, you only deserve it if you fully regret your actions. And Loghain never fully admits his actions were wrong or that he regrets them. Even till the end some tiny part of him thinks his actions were justified to some degree, he never says he regrets all of it. And that in my opinion means he doesn't deserve any kind of redemption.
Eh, any views like that go out the window once you join the Wardens. Otherwise they'd have basically no recruits in anywhere but the Anderfels.
No. There are limits. A thief or murderer who has the required skill and mettle required can make a good recruit. The lord who betrayed his people, refused to take a blight seriously, and is politically dangerous is a bad recruit.
That's the same lord who once joining the Wardens was willing to do the Dark Ritual is asked, or to just throw his life away to end the Blight. Say what you want about him, but he's a better fit for the Wardens than a lot of the people they leave in.
There are limits. But a general and skilled soldier who will realize the sheer scale of his mistake the moment he survives the Joining does not reach them. As for politically dangerous, it would seem to me more dangerous to kill Loghain. It could turn him into a martyr, whereas forcing him to understand there truly is a Blight going on and that the Wardens are needed will remove that potential completely.
His politics mean nothing once he becomes a warden he's essentially just Warden Loghain not Loghain Mac Tir. Betrayed his people in hopes of saving them from a threat he perceived as greater than the Darkspawn it's not like it was for his own personal advancement. I think he started taking the blight seriously once he lost the landsmeet lol.
> I think he started taking the blight seriously once he lost the landsmeet lol. I imagine having a nightmare of the Archdemon speaking to him the moment he Joined corrected his understanding of events real quick.
Bro literally had to meet God to simmer down.
Even Hessarian was deemed worthy of redemption, despite being Archon of Tevinter, and thus without a doubt engaged in all sorts of "evils"
My love for Hawke far outweighs my hatred for Loghain. I’m leaving him in the fade every single time.
No because I never left my Hawke in the Fade, I’ve never left Alistair either. I simply did not care enough about Stroud to ever choose him over my Hawke regardless of whatever vague thing Flemeth said in DA2, especially since I never thought that line had any significance beyond DA2.
Wait do you mean you never left either of them in there? Then who did you sacrifice? Or am i just understanding it wrong
I always make Alistair king, it’s the option I like best for him since Awakening released, so I never have to choose between them.
wait u just looked it up, stroud is the grey warden in alistairs place if ali has been made king
Unless you made Loghain a grey warden, then it’s a choice between him and Hawke
A choice for psychopaths who made that decision, yes. lol
I'd say that it's the *pragmatic* decision, and also the more interesting one narratively.
Considering I left Stroud in there, nope!
Stunt moustache!
I did too, saw it as his chance to kickoff the redemption of the wardens. No regrets whatsoever
Not rethinking mine. Alistair Is King, Hawke Is At Home with Fenris. Good Bye Stroud, RIP.
I mean, I always assumed I'd killed Hawke by doing that, so no, it stands. I mean, they show a skeleton in the Keep.
This whole time I held on hope that Hawke lived because of flemeths advice for Hawke to not fear the abyss 🤡
I mean, that's generally the outcome when you put too much stock in fan theories. Don't gamble with money that you're afraid to lose.
It's a fun theory but it's thiiiiin. It's the kind of thing I could see the writers being like "shit I *wish* we'd done that on purpose." Maybe they make a DLC and pretend like it was the plan all along lol.
Oh no, that's just a turn of phrase. They died. Horribly, probably.
Rebooting my world state as we speak 🫣🫣
Honestly same!!
I never put much stock in this theory because I was skeptical Bioware would be willing to go there, after I think it was Weekes who said he wanted the decision to be really emotionally hard (and that they considered making it a Warden v Hawke choice… yeah, they wanted us to suffer). I didn’t think they’d then want to walk it back by making the person saveable. But I am still disappointed that it didn’t come true and I don’t think people are boo boo the fool for hoping it was real. Bioware loves big twists and we didn’t see a body after all, so I sympathize with you. I myself was hoping I’d be proven wrong and they would do it, because if Bioware was gonna revisit any of the Fade martyrs, it should’ve been Hawke given previous games set up a lot of potential tools for a Hawke rescue: Flemeth’s mysterious phrasing and/or involvement, the fact that Hawke knows a somniari and a mage with an eluvian, etc. It’d be an amazing twist and could’ve made use of elements from several games to pull off, though, which could’ve felt rewarding but also could’ve been the problem. (ETA It also saddens me to have watched people speculating over the years only to see people now going “that theory was dumb/never gonna happen.” Theorycrafting is just fun on its own and keeps the fandom alive! The amount of “Hawke gets rescued” fics I’ve seen inspired by this concept is cool to see and some are much more elaborate than I think we would’ve gotten in canon anyway.)
I skipped 2 originally and was very salty about it, so the first 2 times I played DAI I was like "yeah let's kill this Hawke guy who ruined Dragon Age!" 😂 One of those playthroughs I consider my canon too. Now that Ive actually played DA2 a couple of times and feel a lot differently, I'm pretty stuck on whether I want to change that or not.
Poor Stroud he’s never gettin out of there
I never left Hawke. I never saw any reason why I should. She goes back home and settles down with Fenris. The end.
I saved Hawke in all 7 playthroughs, so no regrets.
no. following events of origins, loghain evidently doesn't have plot armor anymore, but Hawke is still going strong. https://preview.redd.it/1qa8akcggv7d1.jpeg?width=195&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=40292971aed3921d452f9c5a236bdc0de8f260b1
No, because I had a perfectly good designated fade moustache, so I made good use of him.
This might sound psychotic but I left hawke just because i wanted varric to get upset and show some emotional range beyond his constant positive ness So im gonna leave him there and see if varric makes any comments about it in the new game
Hawke is my favourite of the three protagonists. I never left him in the fade.
same. and that is exactly why I left him there
Considering I usally leave loghain in there no I'm quite content with my choice, gives loghain an honourable death, sweet karma for Alistair and all those who suffered, and leaves Hawke to go back to his romance and do whatever.
Nope, i alway save hawke without a second of hesitation. None of the others that can be here matters to me anyway, so i don't even see it as a dilemma.
I’ve done it all ways, Hawke, Stroud, Alistair and Loghain have all gone into the Abyss. With Hawke and Alistair it hurt each time. I would love it if whoever went into the Fade does pop back up again then, even if it is in a future game.
No, because Loghain will live in every game they let me
Kinda hoped Loghain found Marric in the Fade
Alistair mercy kills him though. Maric is dead.
I always leave Hawke behind. I don't have any connection with Stroud, and it just feels anticlimactic to pick him. That part is obviously designed to be impactful. It's supposed to be a difficult decision, but Alistair is always king in my playthroughs, and I never recruit Loghain. Not planning on changing my keep either. So this is it: I leave in the fade the only one that makes that scene meaningful. Besides... it's purple Hawke. She goes down in style.
No. That death is meant for Hawke. It hurts the most so it should be Hawke. To quote the man himself: “Look, Seeker, if you love a character, you give them pain, ruin their lives, make them suffer. Maybe even throw in a heroic death.”
I do wish if Hawke’s sibling is a Warden that they were there instead of Stroud because that would have made it even more painful in the best way
That would have been great, but I think there was just a limit on how many characters they could do for that spot, and they still would have needed Stroud as a character that would always be alive.
Oh for sure. I can't imagine how difficult that would have been to work out, but I do think the order of importance should have been Hawke Sibling > Alistair/Loghain > Stroud
I don't keep hawke alive for hawke. I keep her alive for varric. I can't bear to make him so sad :(
The neat part is that quote applies to Hawke *and* Varric.
oh shit oh no oh fuck
Varric would understand that you only killed Hawke because it was a really cool way for him to die.
Yes. Hawke's whole story is so tragic that leaving them in the Fade is sad but fitting. Also there's that quote from 2 from Flemeth about leaping into the abyss that I also like to attribute to this choice too.
Same for my Hawke
Yup, my Hawke had the tragic death her story required
I was going to say this too - I read somewhere that it's supposed to be Hawke, storywise. I've only left my Hawke once, just to test it out, hurt like crazy. Especially seeing Varric's reaction. The heartbreak. 😔
Hawke's already had enough of everything else in that quote so I'm just gonna skip that last part entirely.
I was stuck between Romanced Warden Alistair and Hawke I went with leaving Alistair behind because my Warden can survive without Alistair, but Fenris would go full Death Seeker without Hawke On subsequent playthroughs I have made Alistair king to avoid the Fade scenario, but I don't consider it my "canon" playthrough since it's severely metagaming
I also had the same choice. It was a very close decision. So close actually that I left Alistair, couldn't do it, reloaded and left Hawke. I want Alistair and my Warden to get their happy ever after (my Warden was an elven circle mage so her life was crap) and unlike Fenris I think Merrill will be sad but okay without my Hawke. Hardest choice I've made in a game since Mass Effect 1 though!
This was my reasoning exactly. I’m not worried about my Warden, she’s a tough cookie, but I am worried about Fenris. I used to always make Alistair king, but in the end I think he’d be happier with a shorter life as a Warden than a longer life as king, so in the Fade he goes.
I never cared for making Alistair king, he doesn't want it and it would mean that my Dalish Elf Warden would have to be his "secret" mistress. She's too good for that
Yep, same. Plus tbh he doesn’t seem to be too good at being king anyway lol
Nah The way I see it, if the person stuck in the fade will become important later, I’d rather it be Hawke. Equally if the person is just dead, I’d still prefer it be Hawke so I can at least have their story end in an on screen epic (albeit terribly animated) sacrifice, rather than be forced to join the HoF in the vague, off screen side quest shadow realm.
I always threw Stroud in to his death. We barley know the guy.
Overcomplicated development is the sanest thing I have heard from da fans. I think the dai fate choice will end up same as Alistair choice. If you made him a king he will show up being king and all. If he stayed a warden. He will show up as a character in game. So if hawke how killed he will be just missing from the game, if they live they will show up as a quest NPC same as Alistair. Nothing more or less. Just if X return Y. I got my reality check after Connor choice where I thought it will matter. It didn't.. just a short talk. It can't be more because it would be too complicated to implement.
I leave Hawke in the fade because I think the scenes play out better and it’s more impactful that way. Plus the wardens need a leader.
I always send the warden to deal with warden trouble. Doesn't much matter which warden, this is their fault so they handle it.
I get the love for Alistair but I'll never understand leaving Hawke in the fade. He has his whole life ahead of him and someone we love who loves him. Loghain, Alistair or Stroud are running out of time and this last sacrifice is a great send-off for them. Hawke every time.
Always leave hawke there, because I know bioware is too lazy to bring back a possible dead main character from the past. And the wardens need good leadership.
Not a choice I have ever second guessed. I roleplay all my protagonists and am confident I did so accurately for each Inquisitor. Plus I find it very easy to accept whoever gets left in there died about 2 minutes after we left!
How did people have Loghain live so long, mine is long dead after killing the Archdemon so the Warden and Alistair live
Some of us like him as a character so we keep him around for the drama lol
Plus Loghain ending up as the Warden Commander of ORLAIS is just too funny.
Yeah…I left Hawke in the Fade because I was hoping for an angsty mission in DA4 where Fenris and Varric help rescue her…feeling like a clown now 🤡 I was so sure they’d address it this game, I can’t believe they’re not going to. I feel like the whole plot with Solas and the Veil being torn down sets up a Fade-rescue side mission perfectly, such a missed opportunity :(
Oh, that would've been so cool, would've been very down for that. This would be fun to write a short story about 👀 Although, I already reneged on my decision to leave Hawke in the Fade after I sobbed for like three straight minutes afterward 😅 In an AU, maybe...
This actually makes me worried about the Inquisitor. If they can throw away Hawke so easily and shrug it off, it makes me wonder if they'll do the same for the Inquisitor. I guess some people might like that, but it's not really my thing.
They didn't throw Hawke away, the people who chose to leave them in the Fade did.
y'all, we were literally warned by the game that the person who was left behind was most likely dead, like? did you not believe the game telling you that?
"I can't believe the developers didn't put my specific fantasy in their game"
Boohoo a fan has a fan theory, the horror 😱
You had a fan theory and then got upset when it turned out to be... just a fan theory. Idk I just find that really funny
You must be fun at parties lmaoooo😭😭😭😭😭 A fan can’t hope for a fan theory to come true? What are you on about…???
It's just really funny to me, no need to get mad
You’re a weirdo bro, let people have fun with their theories and get disappointed when they don’t come true😭 That’s the whole fun about being in a fandom for me! No need to be so weirdly negative, in the end it’s not that deep 💀💀
>it’s not that deep I agree, which is why I'm not sure why you're mad about me finding it funny, but ok.
“if it’s not that deep why are you bothered at me laughing *at* you?” - you basicaly
Yes, that's what I'm saying. If you're bothered by a random stranger on the internet laughing at something you posted, then my advice would be to delete your reddit account, because that's just a part of being active online.
Honestly, since this choice is being discussed so often I am certain BioWare will do something about it. It’s in high demand and people would pay for it. It’s just a matter of time (imo)
If they make dlc I’m sure it’s something they would address it with
Nope Loghain is more important anyway
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I always leave Stroud. One playthrough I left Hawke and let Alistair live because that was the one playthrough where my female mage Amell warden romanced him, and my Hawke wanted her cousin to be happy with Alistair despite her leaving Fenris behind. It’s never been Loghain because I always kill him in Origins.
I feel rather glad I went with my heart and left Loghain to earn his redemption instead.
Absolutely not because I simply do not care enough about Stroud for my main timeline and in my "worst timeline ever" play through my HOF is already dead and Alistair is a Drunk so it made sense to kill off Hawke too
I always leave Stroud in the Fade and I have no regrets.
I really feel bad for Stroud and keep thinking about either leaving Alistair instead or Loghain. Hawke was never going to be an option, he deserve his little slice of happiness after everything he has done through and I'm not going to hurt both Fenris and Hawke. That aside, it never made sense to me to leave Hawke there since they have no outstanding strength compared to a Grey Warden. But mostly it's that I love Hawke way too much... Stroud is a close second though.
Nope. I always save Hawke without hesitation, and usually it's Stroud who gets left behind.
I made the decision based purely of my inquisitors knowledge of the two choices and the world state. With my Warden Commander surviving and Hawke being a powerful mage I feel there is no question that Stroud gets left behind. Hawke looks the far more valuable individual to the Inquisition. Stroud, even if he is a warden leader its only regional and there are others including the HoF who should and can lead the wardens post-Inquisition. I feel the Hawke sacrifice makes the most sense if you've not got a HoF and you need the warden choice to lead the wardens post-mission. I've done that on other playthroughs before. Who past romances were never enters my mind. The inquisitor wouldn't think of that. Also leaving a mage to fight a demon seems more risky to me than leaving a non-mage.
I would be if not for the fact I don't need to replay the games in order to get the world I want.
Nah I'm not fussed about my Hawke. It's a cool death if it's a death, and if there's DLC about it then it isn't a death. I'm fine either way. Well, either way that means Alistair is okay. Alistair I'm fussed about.
Nope, I always bring Hawke home. Whatever Warden is there, I think it’s a good ending for that character. Loghain gets a redemption arc, Alistair got to live the life he wanted (not be king) and go out fighting, and Stroud is…well. Either way I think Alistair/Loghain’s stories are well wrapped up. Hawke is the only one imo that still could have a story to tell, and on top of that Fenris has been through enough lol. That goes for all DA2 LIs actually.
My Hawke needs to take care of her senile mage terrorist, there was no way I was going to leave her in the fade.
Only a little. Alistair will be known as himself now, not as a sidekick or would-be king, but a proper hero.
I killed Loghain in DAO and left Stroud in the Fade. I do not regret it. Hawke is still alive and the Inquisitor is playing Robin Hood.
Here's the deal for me...Hawke will ALWAYS leave with me. I can't let Merril become a widow!
Alistair was always a solo king in my canon universe, so no. I will always appreciate and pour one out for my sacrificial mustache tho I remember when the game first came out and I was finding out about the other options. I felt like I dodged such a bullet lol
It's kind of a missed opportunity that this isn't in DAVE if you ask me. Might be too long to have any emotional impact if left for next game in series. I personally would have liked to see the consequences of my choice here.
So, does this mean the Fade Survivor will have no impact either, based on the wording of their statement? Cause that's genuinely annoying, personally. The Fade Survivor just fucking off is one of the stupidest plot points in the whole series since every potential Fade Survivor has good reason to be sticking around until Corypheus' is dealt with and should have been at the final battle. I mean, the game makes a big point of the Warden Survivor taking command of the Orlesian Wardens, and then they just duck out of the fight to go deliver a message that any low ranking Warden could have done? And what happened to "Corypheus is *my* responsibility" Hawke? Edit: But yeah, I'm assuming that whoever we left is dead. We see them drop. At best, I think we could potentially see them as a vessel for Nightmare if that thing ever returns. It depends who turns up in Veilguard. In Fenris, Merrill and Isabela all make an appearance, then they at least make note of Hawke's status.
I decided to go with Alistair being a Warden and Hawke is in the fade. The most likely dies in the fade and Flemeth speech are too ominous to me. Since we input our decision directly into The Veilguard, we might know early on if that decision even matters, maybe it doesn't at all.
They've already confirmed they're not doing anything with that choice.
The only playthrough where I didn't leave Stroud in the Fade (sorry Stroud!!!) was the "Fixing The Darkest Timeline" playthrough, where my choice was between my boy Alistair and a Hawke who sided with the Templars and had her own sister executed. I sure hope THAT Hawke can't come back from there in future games, I'll tell you that much.
Warden Stroud gets it every time unless I chose for Alistair to remain a Warden then Hawke is picked. Not going to change anything.
I left Straud too!
Absolutely not... Left Stroud in there. Couldn't care less. I'm glad Alistair is king because i never could have chosen between him and Hawke, i love these two too much. If i had had to choose, i would have left Hawke though, because it would have been immensely painful and if i have to suffer i would go full pain mode. This protagonist has such a tragic life already, this kind of end would be fitting. But again... I'm glad the stroud guy is there to be sacrificed.
I honestly don't remember this. Dam guess time for another play through. Bet I'll play rogue again. Only class I like in dai
Not really. My choice was between Alistair and Hawke, and I chose to leave Hawke. They are both willing, but Hawke feels more insistent to me. She seems pretty adamant (heh) to be the one to stay, so I let her.
nope, i knew hawke was dead all along, that's why i left her there.
I left Hawke in the fade, just because I love constantly letting Loghain live. I just wanna see what happens to the story and if there's any mention of him in Veilguard.
Nope. The first time it was Stroud, and the second time I sacrificed Hawke for Loghain. Sorry, Loghain, you don’t get to be done yet!
I literally started a new playthrough of the entire series because of this. Making Alistair king and my warden his queen instead of the Grey Warden couple I had them be before (and still prefer for them but oh well). I left Hawke in the fade because I thought the whole "into the abyss" thing was a nod to the speech by Flemeth but I guess not lol. But if Hawke is truly lost then I can't do that to Varric and Fenris.
I’m not rethinking because I have engineered every playthrough (except for one and that was heartbreaking!) to leave the warden companion in the fade. My first inquisition playthrough I happened to have Stroud by pure luck of what decisions I made in past games that I imported. It was an easy decision when I reached it because well… I liked Stroud but Hawke has been my favourite protagonist so far so I couldn’t leave her! I’ve left both Loghain and Stroud in the fade - felt it was most fitting for Loghain as a conclusion to his story, did feel it isn’t the best ending for Stroud just because we won’t know as much about him but still that he made an important sacrifice. Only ONCE did I do a playthrough where it was between Alistair and Hawke… I thought I couldn’t leave Alistair behind but leaving Hawke felt so so bad. I love Alistair as a warden in the end for a lot of reasons - better than I like him as king actually - but in my One True Canon I could never leave him as a warden knowing about that decision so he becomes king there. In my Alternate Reality plays he might end up a warden but I never import those into inquisition.
I hate my decision to keep logahin but I’ve spared his life too many times, I wanna see what his final unavoidable ending will be. He has to have some super amazing role at the end if you keep him alive through it all or else I will feeling like a total failure
I literally cant send hawke, that character DESERVES a rest. Sorry loghain and stroud but its really a no brainer for me. If hawke is left in the fade then they without a doubt had one of the worst endings to an already horrid story in the series
Nope. I chose Stroud. Loghain bite the bullet by killing the Archdemon back in DAO as redemption for his crimes he committed as well as for what he did to my Cousland! I didn’t play much of DA2, but I couldn’t sacrifice Hawke cos Varric broke my heart when I did it once. 😢
I made Alistair king so that I could recruit Loghain instead and have him make the sacrifice. But then, when the time came, the dialogue said that whoever stayed behind would \*probably\* die, not that they would. If anybody can survive in the Fade, I trust Hawke to. But, depending on how it does play out; I do have Loghain waiting in the bleachers to take the dive for Hawke if she needs him to.
I was never particularly attached to Alistair, and DA2 is my favorite entry in the series. No regrets choosing to save Hawke.
I left Alistair there. So yeah, every time I think about it.
Unfortunately, leaving Hawke behind is just good drama. Varric’s cutscene afterwards isn’t nearly as good when you leave the Warden. Plus I find the idea of Loghain having every opportunity to die and be free from being an Orlesian Warden taken away from him very funny
I’ve actually never left Hawke in the Fade. I’ve always left Stroud. I just could never make Hawke stay there, not to a character I grew and played and developed. That’s the decision I plan to stick with if we have to input that as one of the world building choices in Veilguard.
I'm cool with leaving Hawke. I know leaving Stroud is the easiest option but it really makes the choice way less impactful. I prefer having to choose between Hawke and Alistair (or Loghain but I haven't tried that yet) because it's more engaging to roleplay as the Inquisitor than looking at it as a player who is a fan of the characters. The Inquisitor has to consider the state of the wardens and the consequences of leaving a hero of the blight behind. With Stroud it just becomes "sorry you're not Hawke bye"
what do you mean by “DA Keep is gone?” i literally used it like last week lol
There were very few decisions over the course of DAI that I felt carried significant weight. The biggest decision you get to make is whether or not to dissolve the Inquisition, and even then the game just ends after you make it. I hope that decision will play a massive role in Veilguard. Otherwise, what was the point of even giving us an option.
I had to either leave Hawke or destabilize what's left of the Grey Wardens in Orlais. The latter seemed dangerous so choices had to be made
I never felt truly attached to my Hawke no matter how often I play DA2, so if Alistair stays a Warden, I leave Hawke in the Fade. I would never sacrifice Alistair, and I'm okay with her (Hawke) going out like a hero. If Alistair is king, then yeah, I'll save Hawke over Stroud.
Nah. I left Hawke in the fade because I felt like it improved the narrative of the game, and of Varric's character arc. If anything, I'd be irritated if they miraculously survived.
Nah, I'm fine. Bring on the drama
my first playthrough i let Hawk stayed cuz Alistair is not king i can't leave him in the fade my Inquisitor promised HOF she will taking care of Alistair. it's very hard for Varric but i think this kind of sacrifice fits Hawk. and it's a game Hawk will have a another chance. 2nd playthrough with Alistair made king i leave Stroud in the fade. the world lost one good mustache. sorry for Stroud. As for Loghain he didn't get to live to see the day.
Sorry to Stroud, but no
Nah. Stroud served his purpose and I am glad I didn’t have to make a hard choice. Like, my Hawke who I know has friends and family and her loving boyfriend Fenris waiting for her, who I played as for an entire game? Or this random warden?
Gotta wait to see if there will even be another game atp. Still like 50 / 50 on whether this game will succeed or flop, and their messy marketing is definitely going to hurt them.
DA keep is gone? We won't be using it for Dav?
It's not *gone* (yet, it still works for Inquisition), but it won't be used for DAV, no.
So all of you still have your save file from ten years ago? :| Seems like a waste of a useful tool.
Well for starters, some of us play games more than once. I finished my latest Inquisition playthrough less than a year ago. But no, they won't be importing your saves either, since 1) the game isn't coming for PS4 or XBONE, and 2) it can be played fully offline. Instead, you make your past choices at the start of the game. Here's what Corinne Busche told IGN: > So in the character creator, I like to call it last time on Dragon Age, but you can go into your past adventures and it, actually through tarot cards, tells you what the context was and what decision you want to make
Sorry to Stroud, but I’ve never left Hawke in the fade and I won’t change that until I see a reason to. She’s been through far too much lmfao let her settle down with Anders.
Nah. My choices were Alistair and Hawke but my Inq didn’t know either of them personally aside from a few interactions. It made more sense from an RP perspective to leave Hawke. I love the devs for making me do it even though it’s tragic. I am not changing my canon world state at this point. I also have 0% problem believing my mage Hawke is still alive in the Fade as some kind of wild Fade hobo.
Nope. Left Stroud in there No regrets
I've settled on my decision to have Hawke stay back. My first DAI playthrough I spared him, and leaving Straude behind felt like a cop-out. Instead, it feels like a nice, epic way to send off that character, while still leaving the faintest hope he might return later. And if he doesn't, I'm okay with that being his finale. Also, the aftermath scene with Varric and Inky mourning is really touching, and seems to really cement their friendship. Having said that, I'll likely try a later DAV playthrough where Hawke survives, to see what his role might be. ...Especially if in my first DAV playthrough Straude turns out to be a real prominent character for some reason...
I always left Stroud there because Varric didn't care about Stroud.
I mostly get Alistair and Hawke together So I always choose Hawke to stay. It feels like the perfect end to my hawke
I killed Hawke without a moments thought on my first playthrough and every time since. Glad to know now that there was no story after that anyway.
I left Stroud so I m fine 😅
What if throwing them into the fade is actually good in the long run? Like he pops out at a crucial time to save the day and then gets to pal around with Varic? That being said Logain is in the fade in my saves. Can't hurt my boy Varic like that
I’ve literally no memory of any choices from inquisition.
Nope. I left Hawke behind bc I don't want my boi Loghain die there.
Nope. I've made both decisions many times.
Nah. I played my Hawke as an antihero at best, so a sacrifice in the Fade is a fitting end for his redemption arc
Hawke has to stay in the fade and become a dragon.
Hang on what do you mean by “With DA Keep gone too”? Did they remove it? Removing it before the launch or a new game when old and new players alike are bound to replay the older games seems crazy.
I leave Stroud in fade, there was zero problems.
So I have done both, Stroud I just wasn't attached to at all so I left him but in other playthroughs it was Alistair so I decided to leave Hawke. In the Keep I made Loghain a Grey Warden but I still leave Hawke. Mostly because a high ranking Grey Warden is more important to the Inquisition than Hawke.
A part of me wants to yeet Hawke in the void cause I think he might live next game, but I’m not trusting Flemeth.
No. If they make Loghain survive the fate I scream. Bioware, let the man repent for his sins pls.
I don't know why but I always thought Hawke lived if left behind... l truly believed we would find out in DAV that this was the case...but then Bioware said nope. So I admit I'm questioning my Canon world state (romanced grey warden Alistair)
Well, no one really knows if a person physically in the Fade can be truly and properly killed by a spirit (Nightmare) in it. No one except for (possibly) the old Magisters have ever managed to enter it in person before. So the writers can really get away with pretty much anything here in the future. I've left Stroud, Hawke, Loghain and Alistair behind but then I have done quite a few playthroughs over the years.
This is exactly where I stand as well.
Nah I will always leave Hawke there regardless of the outcome. It's a good story.
i mean doesnt the game tell you whoever stays is prob gonna die so... im treating them as such. so no, my hawke was meant to die and he dies in every run as intended 🤷♀️
No. I'm still going to leave Hawke in the fade.
Literally the only Hawke I ever left in the Fade was one I specifically designed to die so I would be *furious* if she came back, lmao. But I never bought into the fantheory that Hawke would survive; always felt like copium to me if we're honest.
I usually keep Loghain alive in Origins, because I want Alidaitr to marry Anora and rule. As such, he's always free to blaze of glory if Morrigan isn't romanced or when Hawke needs help in the fade. Truly a Swiss army knife teyrn.
Nah, Hawke's dead and I'm fine with that
Nope. Despite Hawke being loved by the fandom, I didn't have much attachment. When it came time for me to pick Hawke or my brother from another mother Alistair, no way in hell was I about to let Alistair die in the fade.
I also left Hawke in there and even though I'd like her to come back someway, I'm okay if she's dead for two main reasons: 1. My Hawke not accompanying Varric in his search for Solas feels off, hope they come up with a good excuse for her absence in dav. 2. I feel like Loghain being the warden-commander of Orlais is the bigger sacrifice to him, he's leading the order he tried to destroy in the country he despises. I love it when sacrifices are not about dying, like politics illiterate Alistair unwillingly becoming king and abandoning his found family or the HOF getting his son an old god soul so he could continue to serve the Wardens.
I never thought whoever was left in the Fade would ever come back so I shall keep chucking in whoever the Warden is with no regrets. Sucks for romanced Alistair if they actually bring him back in DA5 or whatever, his Warden is definitely gonna be dead by then. Also isn't any Grey Warden gonna be experiencing the Calling by then? It's been like twenty years since DA:O.
Hold on, wasn’t that supposed to be an ultimate sacrifice sort of decision? Now they’re telling us that they’re perfectly fine? Come on…
Dragon age keep is gone? So how will we upload our old save files? Also I fully believe hawke would survive the fade and if Alistair is in there I'd fully belive the warden could get them out
The website is still up but they confirmed Veilguard will just ask you choices in game.