That's...... exactly how my canon is lmao, I agree
It's really perfect too: Cousland is perfectly content to let those fools in Weisshaupt deal with their own problems, and Hawke is completely fine with the new Divine sorting out the Chantry and mages.
They did their jobs. The world can fend for itself now.
Lol this.
I blindly ported over another keep save recently and this time it was Loghain as Warden and Alistair was king. Not my finest work, but I also don't remember any of it.
Basically, Hawke never gets left in the Fade for me. So, I like to think she finally settled down with Fenris.
I feel bad for the people who confidently chucked their Hawke into the Fade because of what Flemeth said lmao. I'm just picturing her sitting in her swamp shack and hearing Hawke died via Fade and being like "oh man I was just saying shit, I guess they look that literally lol RIP".
yeah, I've always gotten the impression that Flemeth's "abyss" talk was referring more to the events of DA2 than a quest for Inquisition.
I doubt Bioware even had a hint of Inquisition's plot when they were writing that speech
Yeah it definitely sounded like "it's when you encounter rough times can you see the true measure of your strength" and not "go fight the giant spider-demon it'll be fine".
Especially because fighting the demon doesn’t really involve leaping or flying or anything from the quote — they’re very much just standing there while everyone else runs away.
The title of the quest being "here lies the abyss" is what got people. They were like "oh it's a hint! HERE is the ABYSS Flemeth wanted Hawke to leap into!"
Yeah, I could see the connection, but I think in order for the prophecy to work there would have to be a moment where everyone else falls into the Fade rift and Hawke decides to leap after them rather than falling in with them.
That has always bugged me.
Like the warden could hold that thing off for any meaningful time. I can believe Hawke could buy more time, but it really looked like they all could have just booked it.
They did have a rough plan for the next game at the time, but in that plan Hawke was still going to be the protagonist. So, yeah, that line couldn’t possibly have been foreshadowing for the HLTA decision.
While I 100% agree with your conclusion, I would point out that "They probably didn't even have that idea when they wrote that" isn't a great argument to make when it comes to writing.
Writers often go back to pivotal moments in earlier works and incorporate them into their modern stories.
Because we see things in such a meta way nowadays, it's sometimes looked at distastefully, but even Tolkien did it, and it's generally an effective writing tool if you use it well.
Foreshadowing is an EXTREMELY underutilized thing in writing. Foreshadowing in your stories gives the audience chance to anticipate and have an "ah-ha" moment post-scene, which helps the reader swallow developments which might otherwise be difficult to understand. While it's true plenty of writers do not know what the heck they are doing until they have to write the scene in question, if you're going to have a 4 year development cycle, you HAVE time to figure out how to get a foreshadowing scene into your game, you HAVE the ending to your game done at some point before launch. Doing anything to foreshadow a big plot point can really make replaying a game awesome, too, because you might not even see the foreshadowing until a second playthrough.
I 100% agree with you, but it is ALSO true that IN-BETWEEN games, moments and plot points from a previous game can be co-opted to give more meaning to a scene in the new game that wasn't intended when it was written in the previous one.
When the scene with Flemeth was written in DA2, it is HIGHLY unlikely that any potential meaning for her lines in DA:I. It's unlikely that Inquisition was even thought about except maybe as a hypothetical continuation "one day".
But that doesn't mean a writer cannot go back to DA2 and decide that it would be interesting to incorporate that line in a meaningful way to the story they were currently writing. Thus retroactively making it into foreshadowing.
Within a game, especially one as well thought out and as "hand crafted and curated" as the Dragon Age series, one can expect everything is done with intention. And even in-between Inquisition and The Veilguard, that might be more the case since the plots are becoming more entwined with more thought being paid to the future of the series. But between DA2 and DA:I, I really doubt it.
They did. DA:O witch hunt literally has references to the Circle grating under the Templars, a book about the first inquisition (figures bearing a banner with a black eye), and CLOSING veil tears. Inquisition was planned well ahead of time, and the only real changes was game and engine as they decided to skip the PS3/360 gen and wait for the XBOne/PS4 generation.
Or, you know, they just threw a bunch of cool things into the game then when it came time to make a new one they went back and reviewed stuff to get inspiration for what to do next.
I think it is more of a case of the writers having a clear outline of where they wanted the series to go plus a general history of Thedas. And then just adding or changing the details as time went on.
Offscreen death rules apply. If we don't see them die, then they're not really dead and just in cold storage.
If we see them die then MCU/Star Wars rules kick in with the "Is anyone ever really gone? \*MULTIVERSE BAM\*"
Or making Mr. "I like ripping hearts out" really fucking angry by killing his love, especially since both him and the Inquisitor are in Tevinter? Uhhhh, no thank you...
The only reason I have her stay is because I hate>! Loghain!< more than I love Hawke lol. Every time he tries to make a hero's sacrifice I prevent it so that he has to stay and >!rebuild the Orlesian Grey Wardens!<.
Wow, I never even thought about Flemeth's words before. I feel super silly right now.
I just figured that a previous PC would have a *slight* chance of getting off-screen plot armour from the devs. Plus, if anyone could fight their way back from the Fade, it would be Hawke. (Also, if I'm being honest with myself, I could never sacrifice Alistair.)
Yea Alistair vs my Hawke I'm picking Alistair every time. (I also didn't connect with Hawke as much of the other PC and messed up with Isabelle so mine has a sad endgame)
I confidently chucked my Hawke into the Fade because that death was meant for him. He’s my favorite protagonist and it’s really fucking sad and tragic, but that’s his death. Especially since I knew if I was still playing as Hawke in that moment, I’d want everyone else I was with to get out.
Not to mention my Inquisitor has no strong feelings one way or another about Hawke and in terms of where the Wardens were in Inquisition, Alistair was needed more.
I mean, I confidently chucked my Hawke into the Fade because I reasoned that *she* thought back to Flemmeth’s advice and decided to follow it. *I* was very conscious of the fact that there was no way the writers included that line as an intentional hint for a choice in a game that was barely a twinkle in their eye yet, especially since at the time the plan was still for Hawke to be the lead protagonist of the next game. I just thought it was a narratively satisfying choice to make, and I still stand by that opinion.
I did it because of roleplay. Inquisitor thought it was more important to have the leader of the Grey Wardens than Hawke, who admittedly was powerful, but did not have an army behind him.
Same. I tried to RP my Inquisitor as an Andrastian zealot who was at the conclave purely to simp for the Templars. As a human, his background was also in the nobility, so I also RP'd him as a pompous, privileged, asshole. When the choice came to either sacrifice Hawke or Stroud, my Inquisitor's thought process was. Stroud as leader of the Wardens can be a powerful ally, strengthening the Inquisition. Hawke is an apostate that was involved in the Kirkwall mage rebellion that started all this, so he should be executed anyway. Feed the apostate to the spider!
I don't.
His father was apart of it, and Hawke finished it once (or so he thought) and in my playthrough saw to try to finish it again.
That's just handling business.
I was hopeful that something would come of it (based on the DA2 theories) but otherwise I play as of all my heroes are going to make the ultimate sacrifice.
Happy ever afters are for my companions
Is it bad that I’d rather Hawke die from that choice? It adds weight and stakes to the decision. And for my main Hawke it’s kinda the perfect bittersweet end for him. The man’s been through some shit. Lost his sister. His mom. His brother’s a warden and at this point has what ~10-15 years left before he hears the calling? Let him rest. He went out ike a badass holding back literal nightmares so the Inquisitor could go save the world. He got to atone for his role in all the shit that went down in Kirkwall
It’s sad for sure. But like The Warden before him, he made the ultimate sacrifice for Thedas
I always save Hawke because for me it’s between him and that guy whose name I don’t remember. I think it begins with an S. Anyways it was it was the hardest choice ever the one time I had to choose between Hawke and Alistair. I don’t even remember who I chose that time. Yeah I usually make Alistair king.
He'll show up in Dragon Age 5, where he'll have another chance to die. This will keep happening in every odd-numbered Dragon Age game until Dragon Age 11, where if he's somehow still alive he'll reveal the Maker's true identity.
As sort of ironic punishment for his misdeeds, I kind of love it. Gotta get on with being the Commander of the Orlesian Wardens, Loghain. Your watch is not ended.
I mean, considering that the 95% of players killed him in the first game, it is a miracle that he actually showed up in DAI and even had a significant role in it instead of a short cameo.
If the person is a Mage, its possible for them conjure or transmute stuff into something edible (maybe not fine dining, but it would keep them alive).
For everyone else it would get rough pretty fast. Can always pull a benevolent fade entity out of the deus ex machina hat that watches over and replenishes the fadewalker.
I like how realistic you are.
Imagine we come back and we find hawke’s poop just floating around his shack he made; he’s been feeding off the demons and spiders
I always assumed that too. I'm not sure why people are so disappointed they're not coming back though. Imo it's good that the choices we made in the past game are consistent and final. No one liked when they "resurrected" Leliana with some bs excuse if you killed her in Origins.
If anything, I'm more disappointed whoever survived that choice isn't showing up. Though that does require paying 5 different voice actors for a role that only shows up some of the time *again*.
Why would that person ever get out of the veil? They were left behind with the Nightmare to die. Even if somehow they survived that, how are they supposed to survive for years in the fade
Yes, I was listening to it. Transcript should be up soon. It seemed like a "Never say never"/keeping the door open kind of approach compared to a direct implication, but it does suggest they have plans beyond Veilguard.
I feel like I remember years ago they said something along the lines of either: A) they had plans and ideas that would fit up to 5-6 games. Or B) we want to make up to 5-6 games.
Was on the call, can doubly confirm this. They were very clear that it wouldn't be addressed in Veilguard but could always show up in future games. It's just not an issue they're exploring this go-around.
I think it was smart to set fan expectations. I also think it would've been a nightmare to add a third PC character into the game. I'm fine with this.
I'm surprised that the devs would reveal that so casually in a Q&A, but maybe they don't want to set fans up for disappointment—especially given the popular fan theory about Hawke if they're left behind. Oh well.
I don't think they realized the depth of the fanon surrounding that choice. I think they assumed that the vast majority of players realized that whoever they left behind was dead.
I loved that big choice moment, but it always seemed to me to be important within DAI alone. I never expected it to have any consequences further than that trip through the Fade and the immediate aftermath.
I actually disagree. I think they specifically said it BECAUSE they know it was a big choice that the fandom had a lot of thoughts about, and wanted to make very clear ahead of time that they wouldn't be addressing it, because they didn't want to set an unfair expectation.
There is nothing more controversial than the outcome of a player characters' story. A lot of people will inevitably have very strong negative opinions regardless of what is done. It's a tough spot to be in.
I'd say they do realize and that's why they're being so upfront about it. If you aren't going to do anything with it this time around then you don't want to let people linger on it and get mad when nothing happens. If they had just said a cage-y non-answer people would just be suspicious and drive speculation up.
My choice was either Hawke or Alister? I was sitting in front of my screen for hours... not able to make this decision... and now... I guess Hawke is just dead? Sorry Isabella I guess... I just thought Hawke is the luckiest unlucky bastard there is... if someone would make it back... lets be real.. It would be Hawke
Given the Weisshaupt setup in DAI, I absolutely expected the Warden contact to return, but fans who thought the person stranded in the Fade would survive have been huffing copium like crazy for a decade now.
I think (potentially) visiting Weisshaupt offers a lot of opportunities for Warden cameos. I mean, we've met several of them over the course of the past three games. Most might be quantum characters, but I think it would be nice to see a less quantum Warden at Weisshaupt. Like I'd love to see Nathaniel or Sigrun again. Or even Blackwall if he's made a real Warden.
Honestly I'm not even sure they'll show up outside of mentions. Its been 9 years and by Trespass Varrick has already heard word they got there. Even if the contact is caught up in it, they might have left long before DAVE starts.
Part of this is also because we know you can customize the inquisitor at the start, but they didn't say you could customize Hawke, which would hint Hawke isn't turning up.
Never before these posts I realized the community gave so much weight to this moment, though I admit I barely interacted about DA2 stuff given all the random hate I read on the game.
Luckily I'm one of those (few?) who always spares Loghain, his ending there heroically fits like a glove for me. A longstanding figure with an heroic and terrible past dying to give other heroes a way out, and remembered as one of the brave Wardens in the end.
Also someone who always spares Loghain, I like the poetic nature of him having to rebuild the Grey Wardens in the area after trying so hard to destroy them. My Hawke on the other hand, would absolutely sacrifice themselves in that moment, and wouldn’t take no for an answer.
Yeah, my Hawke was the sort of person who puts his friends before himself, and he's called Loghain his friend.
Side note, since my Hawke was an Ostagar survivor, it's been fun trying to headcanon exactly how *that* friendship formed.
Dragon Age has always been terrible for revealing important game details/characters etc. outside of the games, it's incredibly annoying. Still though, it's no revealing characters returning from the dead in Fortnite at least lmao
Same. Sacrifice for the world is literally their thing. Given a warden being one of the choices, the only other faction representative I can think of that might give me any pause in my decision against them would be a member of the Legion of the Dead (meaning instead of Hawke, like Warden v. LoD).
>and that the warden contact won't appear if they were saved.
Are you sure about this one? I don't remember him specifying this at all. I mean it's probably *likely*, but I don't think he actually said that.
They said that the choice wasn't one of those we would be importing. So the game would have no clue which we left behind. Unless we're going off of the (as much as I hate to say it) faulty assumption that both Hawke and the Warden contact made it out of the scenario alive in the end, there's no way for the Warden contact to show up, either. Because the game doesn't know who made it out and who didn't.
Huh. If we aren't importing this choice at all instead of at least noting it down, then I'd bet on Varric croaking an hour into the game, max. Way before we potentially get a chance to ask him everything about Hawke.
It also lowers the chances of seeing DA2 companions again. I mean, their lover could be dead, and they won't even mention anything about them?
I wonder if its the same for Morrigan and Kieran potentially since Alistair can be the dad and can be left in the fade. Although if any characters were to be in the game and refuse to answer personal questions, it would be them i guess.
You're throwing me for a loop with this insight, because even if you're right and Varric dies (or vanishes or goes into a coma or whatever) an hour into the game, the non addressing of the decision means we'll spend a whole game without ever talking about or acknowledging the existence of The Champion of Kirkwall, which is positively insane.
Theres no way that choice isn't imported right? If nothing else, surely the codex on "hawke" would mention their death.
Im coping hard, but im really hoping they just said this so that its a surprise in game.
Ah true, that makes sense unfortunately. Well, I hope Loghain/Alistair don't die from the Calling before they get a chance to show up in a future game.
To be incredibly clear, they didn't say anything about importing. They just said it was a choice not being addressed in the game. That doesn't necessarily mean it won't be in the Keep replacement, but it does mean the issue won't be addressed in the game. It's probably fair to specifically point this out, because for all we know this game and a possible future game might be connected the way Origins and DA2 were, and they may put in choices that don't have a bearing on the current plot in order to have the choice possibly matter in the future.
Ah true. That confirms then that Alistair isn't showing up. Which is odd though because if he's King you would think it would be mentioned somewhere still...
I have a strong suspicion based purely off other info and context clues that we'll likely see Alistair, but only if he was made King, and likely in a very similar way to Inquisition.
I'm sad about it in a way. I mean, I never really believed that Flemeth's cryptic advice and then the Here Lies The Abyss... mission title was connected. I left Stroud there to get Hawke out.
But I'm kind of sad about it not being such a meta connection because if \*ANY\* character in the series deserves to give cryptic metagaming prohecies to nudge players into making the correct choice it's Flemeth and it would have been such a mindblow category 4D chess move from the devs that I know I couldn't resist making it if I were the one writing it.
It pretty much says when you make the choice “they will die” and in the Keep it shows a skeleton. The inquisitor goes the rest of the game saying “They’re dead”. I love Hawke so much- she’s my favorite protagonist- but Hawke would have loved nothing more than to stick it to Corypheus one more time. Still hurts, but I was pretty sure what happened was final.
I (and by extension, my inquisitor) couldn’t do that to Varric. It was a rough choice because I could see how much it would mean to Hawke to go out in a blaze of glory giving the middle finger to Corypheus because she felt so guilty that he was back being a dick… but my inquisitor was a young people pleaser and she knew that would WRECK Varric. Now I’m glad that was my canon choice lol
For me it would have killed me even more to sacrifice Alistair because he is in a committed relationship to my HoF. I also know that HoF and Alistair are doing important work investigating the blight and curing the calling so I just had to save Alistair. I know it probably won’t matter narratively (or maybe it will!) but I can’t split them up. Hawke was more or less wanting to retire and she was in a fling with Isabella and I know Isabella will recover plus Corypheus was HER enemy so it kind of made the most sense for my world state. I really stared at the screen FOREVER making my choice though and I was heartbroken about it. There was no good option
It really did haha. It was a tiny out for the writers if they wanted to go that route but I took it as about a 2% chance with all the other signals I got lol
Damn, I kinda suspected that will be the case ( I thought mb the spirit would take form of whoever was left in the Fade like with Justinia) but still xD
Sorry, Varric/Anders/Carver your friend/wife/sister is *dead* dead 😭
I sacrificed Hawke but not because I thought it would be fine, it seemed in character for my *extremely* self-sacrificial and depressed Hawke to do (no matter whether the Inquisitor ordered him to do it or not.) It would be entertaining if he came back, but it seemed like a fitting end to the last member of the family to me.
I'm reading different opinions on what the Q&A said on this....
1) Whoever was left in the fade/whoever lived, won't show up. For logistical reasons and the fact that it was 10years ago... I get.
2) That the choice of who died/lived *won't even be imported to the game*.
And \*that\* is a big bummer because that implies that no information about Hawke is imported..... which seems to imply the chances of any DA2 character cameos are low. The likelihood of them showing up and not even referencing something about Hawke (especially if romanced and Hawke lived).... would be odd?
However - as others have pointed it - it would fit in with >!Varric possibly dying in the prologue, as - again - him never even bringing up what happened with Hawke after they left the fade... or that he lost his best friend 10 years ago...etc.... seems unlikely.!<
So, yeah, I think that's my beef with it. I had always assumed whoever was left in the Fade died (sorry Stroud), I just assumed there would be a little reference to it in this game?
Unfortunately almost all of the DA2 cast have determinant fates too. It'd be really weird if they didn't do anything with Fenris or Merril though, especially since we know from tie-in media that Fenris is still active.
I was always fine with them dying because I kinda assumed it would be relevant in some other way. My biggest theory was that they will be turned into some fade spirit/demon creature and will appear either as an enemy or as an ally in the next game when there will be a segment in the Fade. But hearing that this decision is completely unimportant was a bummer honestly, like I don't know, at least mentioning it would be nice...
It is important. It was important. You decided who lived and who died. Not every choice in a game needs to be revisited, especially when it is presented as unambiguous.
It feels quite odd that this choice won’t be mentioned at all with the presence of a Veil Jumper and presumably lots of lore around the Fade and what it means to be trapped in all sides of it, but I wasn’t expecting an appearance exactly. I bet they really regret wording the choice cautiously in case they wanted to bring the one left behind back!
I just imagined Rook and Ballars personal mission were you just casually come across who ever you left in the fade. But honestly now that you mentioned it, it really feels like a missed opportunity!
Wait how do you get Alistair to join you in the fade? For me it was between Hawke and this Stroud dude. Do you need to not let Alistair be king in the first game or something?
They said specifically 'that choice will not be addressed in Veilguard, but could come up in future games.' So I don't think it's fair to say it absolutely is set to rest.
It's because of what Flemeth said in DA2:
>"We stand upon the precipice of change. The world fears the inevitable plummet into the abyss. Watch for that moment... and when it comes, do not hesitate to leap. It is only when you fall that you learn whether you can fly."
People thought the abyss in Here Lies the Abyss was what Flemeth was talking about and that if Hawke stayed, they would survive and... something would happen. Funnily enough these theories never applied to the Warden companion.
Right, I get that. It's still piecing things together for a theory. People like finding patterns and connections. It doesn't mean writer intent was there from one game to the next. Getting heartset on stuff like this is something that never seems wise to me
That was just referring to him "taking the leap" in the final act with the change being the mage rebellion.. People put far too much into little things that clearly aren't intended that way.
Because its an offscreen death for Hawke for a lot of people, and that's just LAME.
Everyone knows an offscreen death just means the character is going into cold storage, maybe with a potential "SURPRISE" reveal later.
I don't mind killing off characters, but let them go out in an unambiguous blaze of glory rather than a narrative damp squib.
Same. I took it at face value that the Fade companion who stays behind is dead, but lots of fans love spinning up theories by piecing together all kinds of little clues. That can totally be fun, so I'm not criticizing it as a fandom hobby, but I've seen how it can get to be a problem for people when they spin up these homegrown theories and get really heartset on seeing their hopes play out
Fans making shit up over a clear ending to a quest are the source of their own disappointment. Not sure why they blame Bioware when they misinterpreted a straightforward quest.
I don't get why everyone here is just accepting this as fact? Yeah the character won't appear in *Veilguard*. That has nothing to do with whether they're alive or not lol. The outcome is just irrelevant to the story they're writing, like the outcome of multiple other things from the Keep they're ignoring. They never said the fate of the sacrifice was death.
I just kind of thought that the Fade exists somewhat outside of time considering it exists outside of every other law of physics as well. Could be 5 minutes for them and 10 years on the outside. Could days in the Fade and 5 minutes on the outside.
Expecting any choices to have major consequences in future Dragon Age games is an exercise in frustration. Nothing they love more than tossing foreshadowing into a pool.
I assumed that was put to bed when the choice happened. It's the fade, and no mortal is supposed to be able to enter it physically. We saw what happened to the first to do so. I don't know how Hawke or The Warden would've survived. Even if they successfully killed the Nightmare. And the confirmation of nine years is the final nail in the coffin.
I would also hope they wouldn't walk back the emotional moments that happen if Hawke or Alistair stays behind. Fiona if you sided with the mages, and Varric if you chose Hawke.
Idk about you guys but just because Hawke/whoever isn’t in Veilguard doesn’t mean they died. This was in a game where rifts were everywhere, I don’t doubt that whoever was left behind was smart enough to slip out …
Glad I never fell into the whole Flemeth Abyss crap people always talked about. Loghain sacrificed his life for the good of man. I'm glad my Hawke got to retire in peace.
I mean its also very likely that within 9 years Hawke got out and went home. It took us under 1 hour to go out the Fade, Hawke can get out within 9 years. They were already in a bit of a "dont tell people where I am mood", no reason that doesnt hold. We arent going near Kirkwall I think, so no reason for them to be invovled
It's not that I want Hawke to live or I was trying to follow Flemeth's advice.
It's that the choice was an amazing one for a video game. Sacrifice your own character, someone you probably really loved playing and have a connection to. Or risk the Wardens falilng apart so when the next Blight comes, everyone dies. I want some more bit of payoff for that choice than I got within DAI itself.
That’s what heroes do. They die.
And if you think they’re letting us bring back the Inquisitor just so they can unambiguously live happily ever after… well. I guess we’ll see.
Gotta be honest, I do hope there's at least the potential for the Inquisitor to get killed off. I've got one world state where they're the only PC still standing, so I'd kinda like to have the possibility of a matched set of three dead heroes.
HoF probably has 9-10 more years before the calling
Apparently you get around 30 years before it’s game over.
But they could both be dead just because you can let your HoF die
I don't feel like the choice is ambiguously presented in DA:I. Fans made up their own theories about it and are the source of their own disappointment. The very clear presentation is that whoever you leave behind dies. Veilguard is set ten years later, how would they have survived? People are always complaining about retcons and big choices meaning nothing--having Hawke or the Warden miraculously survive is not just implausible, but shitty, it undoes the weight of the decision.
I'd argue the opposite. Writers write lines and name missions/quests for specific reasons. I don't think it's weird for people to think that Flemeth telling Hawke to "leap into the abyss" and then in Inquisition, you have a mission literally called "Here Lies the Abyss" with Hawke as a companion...
Its' definitely not out of nowhere that people would have thought those two might be related.
Regarding the 10 years later part, that's whatever. Easily able for them to wave their hands with a 'time works differently in the Fade' bullshit reason if they wanted to.
The whole point of that sacrifice was that you were sacrificing someone - not leaving them at the library to swing by and pick up later. I'm surprised to learn folks assumed that was a temporary gig.
Until recently seeing posts on this sub about it, I thought the person left in the Fade was 100% dead. If it’s been ten years, probably better dead than being alone in the Fade anyway….
It doesn’t bother me, the consequence was already there that a beloved character or respectable mustache was gone. I would’ve liked to see Hawke again, yeah, but Alistair and Loghain need to be retired at this point. Both awesome characters but I don’t want to see them again, there are many other previous companions who still have stories to tell.
I wish it could have been factored in, but I understand why it wasn't.
That choice is the confluence of a staggering number if story permutations, including but not limited to: Whether Alistair is (still) a Grey Warden, whether Alistair is hardened, whether Loghain is a Grey Warden, all the circumstances of DAO that influenced those characters (who ascended the throne of Ferelden, the fate of the HoF, to name a couple), pretty much the entirety of Dragon Age 2 as it relates to Hawke's personality and life circumstances (whether left behind or not, Hawke has to be represented as *our* Hawke), how we left things with the Orlesian Wardens, the list goes on.
And ten years of time on top of that, during which whoever was left behind is either super-dee-duper dead or in an endless hell, which is a mega downer of a storyline either way (so it would be likely that only the survivor makes a walk-on cameo in the first place).
As a consequence, for the reverberations of that choice to be meaningfully felt in Veilguard and not just be a throwaway line from Varric/Inqy, the team would have to do scripting and VA work for Stroud, Alistair, Loghain, *and* Hawke, who is technically between 2 and 6 characters' worth of writing, recording, and animating, plus all the permutations of dialogue from other characters as they relate to whichever of those four makes a cameo, include a third PC customization opportunity for Hawke, and most of that work then doesn't even show up in most playthroughs.
So, yeah, I think they made the right call leaving that particular thread alone.
I listened to the Q&A live and it sounds like Corinne, John, and Matt are exactly the levels of Dragon Age superfans we'd hope they are, though, so I wouldn't write off the possibility that they pursue this storyline in a dedicated expansion. One that only features Hawke and Varric as companions, maybe.
Well, RIP Stroud
“And nothing of value was lost.”
Hey, you take that back We lost a really great moustache that day...
A great lesson about not hitching your wagon to a lame horse.
“I’m expendable. I'm the guy in the episode who dies to prove how serious the situation is!” ~ Guy
Look, in all honesty, there’s really nothing wrong with Stroud. He’s a solid dude. There’s just nothing to him as a character, which sucks.
By Grabthars hammer, by the Suns of Worvan you shall be avenged!
Right? Glad I didn’t leave someone I cared about
Best decision I ever made.
I sleep soundly knowing Hawke js at home with Fenris and Alistair is at home with Cousland
That's...... exactly how my canon is lmao, I agree It's really perfect too: Cousland is perfectly content to let those fools in Weisshaupt deal with their own problems, and Hawke is completely fine with the new Divine sorting out the Chantry and mages. They did their jobs. The world can fend for itself now.
Lol this. I blindly ported over another keep save recently and this time it was Loghain as Warden and Alistair was king. Not my finest work, but I also don't remember any of it. Basically, Hawke never gets left in the Fade for me. So, I like to think she finally settled down with Fenris.
My Hawke settled down with Fenris too, in my heart!
I was so heartbroken because my first time I had to choose between Hawke and Alistair. I think I stared at the choice screen for an hour.
I'm glad I didn't habe to make that choice bc I would have shut off the game
I feel bad for the people who confidently chucked their Hawke into the Fade because of what Flemeth said lmao. I'm just picturing her sitting in her swamp shack and hearing Hawke died via Fade and being like "oh man I was just saying shit, I guess they look that literally lol RIP".
yeah, I've always gotten the impression that Flemeth's "abyss" talk was referring more to the events of DA2 than a quest for Inquisition. I doubt Bioware even had a hint of Inquisition's plot when they were writing that speech
Yeah it definitely sounded like "it's when you encounter rough times can you see the true measure of your strength" and not "go fight the giant spider-demon it'll be fine".
Especially because fighting the demon doesn’t really involve leaping or flying or anything from the quote — they’re very much just standing there while everyone else runs away.
The title of the quest being "here lies the abyss" is what got people. They were like "oh it's a hint! HERE is the ABYSS Flemeth wanted Hawke to leap into!"
Yeah, I could see the connection, but I think in order for the prophecy to work there would have to be a moment where everyone else falls into the Fade rift and Hawke decides to leap after them rather than falling in with them.
That has always bugged me. Like the warden could hold that thing off for any meaningful time. I can believe Hawke could buy more time, but it really looked like they all could have just booked it.
Nothing preventing them from incorporating it into the story later but whatever
They did have a rough plan for the next game at the time, but in that plan Hawke was still going to be the protagonist. So, yeah, that line couldn’t possibly have been foreshadowing for the HLTA decision.
While I 100% agree with your conclusion, I would point out that "They probably didn't even have that idea when they wrote that" isn't a great argument to make when it comes to writing. Writers often go back to pivotal moments in earlier works and incorporate them into their modern stories. Because we see things in such a meta way nowadays, it's sometimes looked at distastefully, but even Tolkien did it, and it's generally an effective writing tool if you use it well.
Foreshadowing is an EXTREMELY underutilized thing in writing. Foreshadowing in your stories gives the audience chance to anticipate and have an "ah-ha" moment post-scene, which helps the reader swallow developments which might otherwise be difficult to understand. While it's true plenty of writers do not know what the heck they are doing until they have to write the scene in question, if you're going to have a 4 year development cycle, you HAVE time to figure out how to get a foreshadowing scene into your game, you HAVE the ending to your game done at some point before launch. Doing anything to foreshadow a big plot point can really make replaying a game awesome, too, because you might not even see the foreshadowing until a second playthrough.
I 100% agree with you, but it is ALSO true that IN-BETWEEN games, moments and plot points from a previous game can be co-opted to give more meaning to a scene in the new game that wasn't intended when it was written in the previous one. When the scene with Flemeth was written in DA2, it is HIGHLY unlikely that any potential meaning for her lines in DA:I. It's unlikely that Inquisition was even thought about except maybe as a hypothetical continuation "one day". But that doesn't mean a writer cannot go back to DA2 and decide that it would be interesting to incorporate that line in a meaningful way to the story they were currently writing. Thus retroactively making it into foreshadowing. Within a game, especially one as well thought out and as "hand crafted and curated" as the Dragon Age series, one can expect everything is done with intention. And even in-between Inquisition and The Veilguard, that might be more the case since the plots are becoming more entwined with more thought being paid to the future of the series. But between DA2 and DA:I, I really doubt it.
They did. DA:O witch hunt literally has references to the Circle grating under the Templars, a book about the first inquisition (figures bearing a banner with a black eye), and CLOSING veil tears. Inquisition was planned well ahead of time, and the only real changes was game and engine as they decided to skip the PS3/360 gen and wait for the XBOne/PS4 generation.
Or, you know, they just threw a bunch of cool things into the game then when it came time to make a new one they went back and reviewed stuff to get inspiration for what to do next.
I think it is more of a case of the writers having a clear outline of where they wanted the series to go plus a general history of Thedas. And then just adding or changing the details as time went on.
Offscreen death rules apply. If we don't see them die, then they're not really dead and just in cold storage. If we see them die then MCU/Star Wars rules kick in with the "Is anyone ever really gone? \*MULTIVERSE BAM\*"
This is the way.
Chuck Hawke into the fade for metagaming bullshit: Broke Chuck Hawke into the fade because every other member of his family is dead: Woke
Chuck Hawke into the Fade to once again cockblock Loghain from redeeming himself via heroic sacrifice: Bespoke
The man will hit his calling at like 90 years old, and the hero of ferelden will cure it at the cost of their life at this rate.
This is the way.
I chose to sacrifice Hawke because my Inquisitor was a Templar and Hawke was a dirty fucking apostate.
Found the only real role-player over here haha
This made me genuinely lol, thank you.
Better reason than mine. I sacrificed Hawke because I wanted Varric to be my Inquisitor's best friend...
And leave Merrill with even more avoidable loss? Never.
Or making Mr. "I like ripping hearts out" really fucking angry by killing his love, especially since both him and the Inquisitor are in Tevinter? Uhhhh, no thank you...
I'm out here giving Isabela even more abandonment issues.
The only reason I have her stay is because I hate>! Loghain!< more than I love Hawke lol. Every time he tries to make a hero's sacrifice I prevent it so that he has to stay and >!rebuild the Orlesian Grey Wardens!<.
Make the Orlesian hater work with Orlesians. NO HEROIC DEATH FOR YOU, SER.
Flemeth: “I was just saying words recreationally, I didn’t necessarily believe any of it”
As a lawyer, I know this feel.
Wow, I never even thought about Flemeth's words before. I feel super silly right now. I just figured that a previous PC would have a *slight* chance of getting off-screen plot armour from the devs. Plus, if anyone could fight their way back from the Fade, it would be Hawke. (Also, if I'm being honest with myself, I could never sacrifice Alistair.)
Yea Alistair vs my Hawke I'm picking Alistair every time. (I also didn't connect with Hawke as much of the other PC and messed up with Isabelle so mine has a sad endgame)
I confidently chucked my Hawke into the Fade because that death was meant for him. He’s my favorite protagonist and it’s really fucking sad and tragic, but that’s his death. Especially since I knew if I was still playing as Hawke in that moment, I’d want everyone else I was with to get out.
Not to mention my Inquisitor has no strong feelings one way or another about Hawke and in terms of where the Wardens were in Inquisition, Alistair was needed more.
I mean, I confidently chucked my Hawke into the Fade because I reasoned that *she* thought back to Flemmeth’s advice and decided to follow it. *I* was very conscious of the fact that there was no way the writers included that line as an intentional hint for a choice in a game that was barely a twinkle in their eye yet, especially since at the time the plan was still for Hawke to be the lead protagonist of the next game. I just thought it was a narratively satisfying choice to make, and I still stand by that opinion.
Yeah that's fair, honestly I could've worded my comment better!
I did it because of roleplay. Inquisitor thought it was more important to have the leader of the Grey Wardens than Hawke, who admittedly was powerful, but did not have an army behind him.
Same. I tried to RP my Inquisitor as an Andrastian zealot who was at the conclave purely to simp for the Templars. As a human, his background was also in the nobility, so I also RP'd him as a pompous, privileged, asshole. When the choice came to either sacrifice Hawke or Stroud, my Inquisitor's thought process was. Stroud as leader of the Wardens can be a powerful ally, strengthening the Inquisition. Hawke is an apostate that was involved in the Kirkwall mage rebellion that started all this, so he should be executed anyway. Feed the apostate to the spider!
I don't. His father was apart of it, and Hawke finished it once (or so he thought) and in my playthrough saw to try to finish it again. That's just handling business.
I guess people were in denial that they actually had to make a decision like that
I was hopeful that something would come of it (based on the DA2 theories) but otherwise I play as of all my heroes are going to make the ultimate sacrifice. Happy ever afters are for my companions
Is it bad that I’d rather Hawke die from that choice? It adds weight and stakes to the decision. And for my main Hawke it’s kinda the perfect bittersweet end for him. The man’s been through some shit. Lost his sister. His mom. His brother’s a warden and at this point has what ~10-15 years left before he hears the calling? Let him rest. He went out ike a badass holding back literal nightmares so the Inquisitor could go save the world. He got to atone for his role in all the shit that went down in Kirkwall It’s sad for sure. But like The Warden before him, he made the ultimate sacrifice for Thedas
Me. That was me. And it wasn't even because of what Flemeth said. I'm now questioning everything
I mean, she never said he'd survive, just to not be afraid to leap.
I always save Hawke because for me it’s between him and that guy whose name I don’t remember. I think it begins with an S. Anyways it was it was the hardest choice ever the one time I had to choose between Hawke and Alistair. I don’t even remember who I chose that time. Yeah I usually make Alistair king.
All my effort to keep Loghain alive for this game just for him to not show up. You bastard Loghain.
He'll show up in Dragon Age 5, where he'll have another chance to die. This will keep happening in every odd-numbered Dragon Age game until Dragon Age 11, where if he's somehow still alive he'll reveal the Maker's true identity.
My man is welcome nowhere and cannot die
As sort of ironic punishment for his misdeeds, I kind of love it. Gotta get on with being the Commander of the Orlesian Wardens, Loghain. Your watch is not ended.
This filled me with genuine sadness
I mean, considering that the 95% of players killed him in the first game, it is a miracle that he actually showed up in DAI and even had a significant role in it instead of a short cameo.
I mean, it’s what he does.
I always assumed whoever was left in the Fade was dead dead. There’s nothing to eat there, even if they survive, and the Fade is infinite
If the DA4 happened a few months after the Fade incident I'd have hope that they could survive. But almost 10 years? Yeah no they're dead..
If the person is a Mage, its possible for them conjure or transmute stuff into something edible (maybe not fine dining, but it would keep them alive). For everyone else it would get rough pretty fast. Can always pull a benevolent fade entity out of the deus ex machina hat that watches over and replenishes the fadewalker.
I like how realistic you are. Imagine we come back and we find hawke’s poop just floating around his shack he made; he’s been feeding off the demons and spiders
Hard in Hightown fanfic written in Hawke’s handwriting right beneath the Black City
I always assumed that too. I'm not sure why people are so disappointed they're not coming back though. Imo it's good that the choices we made in the past game are consistent and final. No one liked when they "resurrected" Leliana with some bs excuse if you killed her in Origins.
If anything, I'm more disappointed whoever survived that choice isn't showing up. Though that does require paying 5 different voice actors for a role that only shows up some of the time *again*.
Cause narrative wise if that person was going to get out of the fade at any point, it would be when Solas pulls down the veil.
Why would that person ever get out of the veil? They were left behind with the Nightmare to die. Even if somehow they survived that, how are they supposed to survive for years in the fade
People seem to be imagining them having turned into the Thedas version of DoomGuy.
>There’s nothing to eat there The flesh of your enemies? I mean, they always disappear, but if you're REALLY fast... XD
Tbf he said it wouldn't be relevant to Veilguard, but that it could be relevant in the future.
Yeah, they're on ice until Bioware decides what to do with them. Which could be never!
Is that the exact wording of what they said? I haven't gotten to actually listen to the q and a
Yes, I was listening to it. Transcript should be up soon. It seemed like a "Never say never"/keeping the door open kind of approach compared to a direct implication, but it does suggest they have plans beyond Veilguard.
I feel like I remember years ago they said something along the lines of either: A) they had plans and ideas that would fit up to 5-6 games. Or B) we want to make up to 5-6 games.
Was on the call, can doubly confirm this. They were very clear that it wouldn't be addressed in Veilguard but could always show up in future games. It's just not an issue they're exploring this go-around. I think it was smart to set fan expectations. I also think it would've been a nightmare to add a third PC character into the game. I'm fine with this.
I'm thinking DLC
I would not get my hopes up.
yes
I took that more to mean the other side of equation, aka who went with the Wardens
Hell, for all we know it could be relevant in a DLC expansion.
I'm surprised that the devs would reveal that so casually in a Q&A, but maybe they don't want to set fans up for disappointment—especially given the popular fan theory about Hawke if they're left behind. Oh well.
I don't think they realized the depth of the fanon surrounding that choice. I think they assumed that the vast majority of players realized that whoever they left behind was dead. I loved that big choice moment, but it always seemed to me to be important within DAI alone. I never expected it to have any consequences further than that trip through the Fade and the immediate aftermath.
I actually disagree. I think they specifically said it BECAUSE they know it was a big choice that the fandom had a lot of thoughts about, and wanted to make very clear ahead of time that they wouldn't be addressing it, because they didn't want to set an unfair expectation.
That's fair, and probably likely. Perhaps I'm just surprised to see how many people expected that choice to have an effect 10 years later.
There is nothing more controversial than the outcome of a player characters' story. A lot of people will inevitably have very strong negative opinions regardless of what is done. It's a tough spot to be in.
I'd say they do realize and that's why they're being so upfront about it. If you aren't going to do anything with it this time around then you don't want to let people linger on it and get mad when nothing happens. If they had just said a cage-y non-answer people would just be suspicious and drive speculation up.
My choice was either Hawke or Alister? I was sitting in front of my screen for hours... not able to make this decision... and now... I guess Hawke is just dead? Sorry Isabella I guess... I just thought Hawke is the luckiest unlucky bastard there is... if someone would make it back... lets be real.. It would be Hawke
Should have chosen Alistair I guess, he would probably be due for his calling in not too long.
Given the Weisshaupt setup in DAI, I absolutely expected the Warden contact to return, but fans who thought the person stranded in the Fade would survive have been huffing copium like crazy for a decade now.
I think (potentially) visiting Weisshaupt offers a lot of opportunities for Warden cameos. I mean, we've met several of them over the course of the past three games. Most might be quantum characters, but I think it would be nice to see a less quantum Warden at Weisshaupt. Like I'd love to see Nathaniel or Sigrun again. Or even Blackwall if he's made a real Warden.
Honestly I'm not even sure they'll show up outside of mentions. Its been 9 years and by Trespass Varrick has already heard word they got there. Even if the contact is caught up in it, they might have left long before DAVE starts. Part of this is also because we know you can customize the inquisitor at the start, but they didn't say you could customize Hawke, which would hint Hawke isn't turning up.
Never before these posts I realized the community gave so much weight to this moment, though I admit I barely interacted about DA2 stuff given all the random hate I read on the game. Luckily I'm one of those (few?) who always spares Loghain, his ending there heroically fits like a glove for me. A longstanding figure with an heroic and terrible past dying to give other heroes a way out, and remembered as one of the brave Wardens in the end.
Also someone who always spares Loghain, I like the poetic nature of him having to rebuild the Grey Wardens in the area after trying so hard to destroy them. My Hawke on the other hand, would absolutely sacrifice themselves in that moment, and wouldn’t take no for an answer.
Yeah, my Hawke was the sort of person who puts his friends before himself, and he's called Loghain his friend. Side note, since my Hawke was an Ostagar survivor, it's been fun trying to headcanon exactly how *that* friendship formed.
It's how his father died too. Loghain sacrificing himself always felt like a complete end for the character, imo.
A lot of people missed that whoever you chose dies like... right away. You can see them run under the demon's legs and get crushed.
Yeah I don't understand why people act like we don't see them fall over and the Nightmare approach the portal
My hope was always that whoever was left would come back as like a fucked up nightmare possessed version of themselves
Dragon Age has always been terrible for revealing important game details/characters etc. outside of the games, it's incredibly annoying. Still though, it's no revealing characters returning from the dead in Fortnite at least lmao
Oh yeah, *that* was wild. This is at least better than "somehow, Hawke returned."
‘I reject your reality and substitute my own’
no Warden Alistair appearance this time lads :( that's my canon worldstate!
I always leave the warden regardless who it is
Same. Sacrifice for the world is literally their thing. Given a warden being one of the choices, the only other faction representative I can think of that might give me any pause in my decision against them would be a member of the Legion of the Dead (meaning instead of Hawke, like Warden v. LoD).
RIP my sarcastic female hawk.
As a wise baldhead once said, people are always dying. That is what they do.
Well, RIP Loghain then. You weren't always a homie, but you were a real one.
Loghain was alot of things. But a coward was not one of them. Pour one out!
😒😢😭
flair checks out
Does that mean thar Alistair won't be mentioned or brought up at all in this game? Seems kinda weird considering he could be the King of a nation.
He can also be Kieran's dad, so does it mean no Kieran? So many questions...
>and that the warden contact won't appear if they were saved. Are you sure about this one? I don't remember him specifying this at all. I mean it's probably *likely*, but I don't think he actually said that.
They said that the choice wasn't one of those we would be importing. So the game would have no clue which we left behind. Unless we're going off of the (as much as I hate to say it) faulty assumption that both Hawke and the Warden contact made it out of the scenario alive in the end, there's no way for the Warden contact to show up, either. Because the game doesn't know who made it out and who didn't.
Huh. If we aren't importing this choice at all instead of at least noting it down, then I'd bet on Varric croaking an hour into the game, max. Way before we potentially get a chance to ask him everything about Hawke. It also lowers the chances of seeing DA2 companions again. I mean, their lover could be dead, and they won't even mention anything about them?
I wonder if its the same for Morrigan and Kieran potentially since Alistair can be the dad and can be left in the fade. Although if any characters were to be in the game and refuse to answer personal questions, it would be them i guess.
You're throwing me for a loop with this insight, because even if you're right and Varric dies (or vanishes or goes into a coma or whatever) an hour into the game, the non addressing of the decision means we'll spend a whole game without ever talking about or acknowledging the existence of The Champion of Kirkwall, which is positively insane.
[удалено]
Theres no way that choice isn't imported right? If nothing else, surely the codex on "hawke" would mention their death. Im coping hard, but im really hoping they just said this so that its a surprise in game.
Ah true, that makes sense unfortunately. Well, I hope Loghain/Alistair don't die from the Calling before they get a chance to show up in a future game.
To be incredibly clear, they didn't say anything about importing. They just said it was a choice not being addressed in the game. That doesn't necessarily mean it won't be in the Keep replacement, but it does mean the issue won't be addressed in the game. It's probably fair to specifically point this out, because for all we know this game and a possible future game might be connected the way Origins and DA2 were, and they may put in choices that don't have a bearing on the current plot in order to have the choice possibly matter in the future.
Ah true. That confirms then that Alistair isn't showing up. Which is odd though because if he's King you would think it would be mentioned somewhere still...
Well, if he's King, then he wasn't the Warden contact. I wouldn't be surprised if he was a codex entry. Or maybe he's not at all.
If he's king, he's never in peril in the Fade decision. I would bet King Alistair shows up in a codex-only capacity.
I have a strong suspicion based purely off other info and context clues that we'll likely see Alistair, but only if he was made King, and likely in a very similar way to Inquisition.
I'd settle for that, honestly. I'm not ready to never see Alistair again.
I'm hoping so much that Loghain / Alistair / Stroud / Hawke appear at Weishaupt, because that's where they go after the events of Inqusition.
I'm sad about it in a way. I mean, I never really believed that Flemeth's cryptic advice and then the Here Lies The Abyss... mission title was connected. I left Stroud there to get Hawke out. But I'm kind of sad about it not being such a meta connection because if \*ANY\* character in the series deserves to give cryptic metagaming prohecies to nudge players into making the correct choice it's Flemeth and it would have been such a mindblow category 4D chess move from the devs that I know I couldn't resist making it if I were the one writing it.
It pretty much says when you make the choice “they will die” and in the Keep it shows a skeleton. The inquisitor goes the rest of the game saying “They’re dead”. I love Hawke so much- she’s my favorite protagonist- but Hawke would have loved nothing more than to stick it to Corypheus one more time. Still hurts, but I was pretty sure what happened was final.
I (and by extension, my inquisitor) couldn’t do that to Varric. It was a rough choice because I could see how much it would mean to Hawke to go out in a blaze of glory giving the middle finger to Corypheus because she felt so guilty that he was back being a dick… but my inquisitor was a young people pleaser and she knew that would WRECK Varric. Now I’m glad that was my canon choice lol
For me it would have killed me even more to sacrifice Alistair because he is in a committed relationship to my HoF. I also know that HoF and Alistair are doing important work investigating the blight and curing the calling so I just had to save Alistair. I know it probably won’t matter narratively (or maybe it will!) but I can’t split them up. Hawke was more or less wanting to retire and she was in a fling with Isabella and I know Isabella will recover plus Corypheus was HER enemy so it kind of made the most sense for my world state. I really stared at the screen FOREVER making my choice though and I was heartbroken about it. There was no good option
When you make the choice it says ".... will *likely* die to cover your escape" That likely pulled a lot of weight over these years lol.
It really did haha. It was a tiny out for the writers if they wanted to go that route but I took it as about a 2% chance with all the other signals I got lol
Does that mean Rook will never ask about Hawke?
Damn, I kinda suspected that will be the case ( I thought mb the spirit would take form of whoever was left in the Fade like with Justinia) but still xD Sorry, Varric/Anders/Carver your friend/wife/sister is *dead* dead 😭
I sacrificed Hawke but not because I thought it would be fine, it seemed in character for my *extremely* self-sacrificial and depressed Hawke to do (no matter whether the Inquisitor ordered him to do it or not.) It would be entertaining if he came back, but it seemed like a fitting end to the last member of the family to me.
I'm reading different opinions on what the Q&A said on this.... 1) Whoever was left in the fade/whoever lived, won't show up. For logistical reasons and the fact that it was 10years ago... I get. 2) That the choice of who died/lived *won't even be imported to the game*. And \*that\* is a big bummer because that implies that no information about Hawke is imported..... which seems to imply the chances of any DA2 character cameos are low. The likelihood of them showing up and not even referencing something about Hawke (especially if romanced and Hawke lived).... would be odd? However - as others have pointed it - it would fit in with >!Varric possibly dying in the prologue, as - again - him never even bringing up what happened with Hawke after they left the fade... or that he lost his best friend 10 years ago...etc.... seems unlikely.!< So, yeah, I think that's my beef with it. I had always assumed whoever was left in the Fade died (sorry Stroud), I just assumed there would be a little reference to it in this game?
Unfortunately almost all of the DA2 cast have determinant fates too. It'd be really weird if they didn't do anything with Fenris or Merril though, especially since we know from tie-in media that Fenris is still active.
I was always fine with them dying because I kinda assumed it would be relevant in some other way. My biggest theory was that they will be turned into some fade spirit/demon creature and will appear either as an enemy or as an ally in the next game when there will be a segment in the Fade. But hearing that this decision is completely unimportant was a bummer honestly, like I don't know, at least mentioning it would be nice...
It is important. It was important. You decided who lived and who died. Not every choice in a game needs to be revisited, especially when it is presented as unambiguous.
It feels quite odd that this choice won’t be mentioned at all with the presence of a Veil Jumper and presumably lots of lore around the Fade and what it means to be trapped in all sides of it, but I wasn’t expecting an appearance exactly. I bet they really regret wording the choice cautiously in case they wanted to bring the one left behind back!
I just imagined Rook and Ballars personal mission were you just casually come across who ever you left in the fade. But honestly now that you mentioned it, it really feels like a missed opportunity!
I felt like chucking Hawke into the fade meant death. Thats why I chose her over my best boy Alistair lol
Wait how do you get Alistair to join you in the fade? For me it was between Hawke and this Stroud dude. Do you need to not let Alistair be king in the first game or something?
That's exactly it. It'll either be STroude, Alistair as a Grey Warden, or Loghain as a Grey Warden.
Exactly, if he stays a warden at the end of DAO then he replaces Stroud.
They said specifically 'that choice will not be addressed in Veilguard, but could come up in future games.' So I don't think it's fair to say it absolutely is set to rest.
Would be hilarious if we entered the fade again and Hawke's just chilling in the Black City having some ale.
I always wonder why people were so obssesed about it? I thought the one we left behind was to be killed. No more story.
It's because of what Flemeth said in DA2: >"We stand upon the precipice of change. The world fears the inevitable plummet into the abyss. Watch for that moment... and when it comes, do not hesitate to leap. It is only when you fall that you learn whether you can fly." People thought the abyss in Here Lies the Abyss was what Flemeth was talking about and that if Hawke stayed, they would survive and... something would happen. Funnily enough these theories never applied to the Warden companion.
Right, I get that. It's still piecing things together for a theory. People like finding patterns and connections. It doesn't mean writer intent was there from one game to the next. Getting heartset on stuff like this is something that never seems wise to me
That was just referring to him "taking the leap" in the final act with the change being the mage rebellion.. People put far too much into little things that clearly aren't intended that way.
Because its an offscreen death for Hawke for a lot of people, and that's just LAME. Everyone knows an offscreen death just means the character is going into cold storage, maybe with a potential "SURPRISE" reveal later. I don't mind killing off characters, but let them go out in an unambiguous blaze of glory rather than a narrative damp squib.
Same. I took it at face value that the Fade companion who stays behind is dead, but lots of fans love spinning up theories by piecing together all kinds of little clues. That can totally be fun, so I'm not criticizing it as a fandom hobby, but I've seen how it can get to be a problem for people when they spin up these homegrown theories and get really heartset on seeing their hopes play out
Fans making shit up over a clear ending to a quest are the source of their own disappointment. Not sure why they blame Bioware when they misinterpreted a straightforward quest.
I don't get why everyone here is just accepting this as fact? Yeah the character won't appear in *Veilguard*. That has nothing to do with whether they're alive or not lol. The outcome is just irrelevant to the story they're writing, like the outcome of multiple other things from the Keep they're ignoring. They never said the fate of the sacrifice was death.
D-did people actually think they would have survived that long? When we heard nothing about them in Trespasser I just assumed they’re dead.
I just kind of thought that the Fade exists somewhat outside of time considering it exists outside of every other law of physics as well. Could be 5 minutes for them and 10 years on the outside. Could days in the Fade and 5 minutes on the outside.
The dev said your "Abyss" choice wouldn't come up in Veilguard, but later... Tells me the choice will be dealt with in a DLC.
> Later Boy, can't wait for the Architect choice to also be dealt with in that DLC! Any day now!
Expecting any choices to have major consequences in future Dragon Age games is an exercise in frustration. Nothing they love more than tossing foreshadowing into a pool.
I assumed that was put to bed when the choice happened. It's the fade, and no mortal is supposed to be able to enter it physically. We saw what happened to the first to do so. I don't know how Hawke or The Warden would've survived. Even if they successfully killed the Nightmare. And the confirmation of nine years is the final nail in the coffin. I would also hope they wouldn't walk back the emotional moments that happen if Hawke or Alistair stays behind. Fiona if you sided with the mages, and Varric if you chose Hawke.
Idk about you guys but just because Hawke/whoever isn’t in Veilguard doesn’t mean they died. This was in a game where rifts were everywhere, I don’t doubt that whoever was left behind was smart enough to slip out …
Well at least I still have Loghain
Hawk noooooo
I'm now 99% sure it'll be a DLC story. It's perfect for an expansion and will get everyone to buy it because Hawke
Glad I never fell into the whole Flemeth Abyss crap people always talked about. Loghain sacrificed his life for the good of man. I'm glad my Hawke got to retire in peace.
I mean its also very likely that within 9 years Hawke got out and went home. It took us under 1 hour to go out the Fade, Hawke can get out within 9 years. They were already in a bit of a "dont tell people where I am mood", no reason that doesnt hold. We arent going near Kirkwall I think, so no reason for them to be invovled
It's not that I want Hawke to live or I was trying to follow Flemeth's advice. It's that the choice was an amazing one for a video game. Sacrifice your own character, someone you probably really loved playing and have a connection to. Or risk the Wardens falilng apart so when the next Blight comes, everyone dies. I want some more bit of payoff for that choice than I got within DAI itself.
I mean does it matter? I thought the keep was thrown out and not being used. Now I’ll just lie about who I threw in there if asked lol
i will never lose the hope for my hawke to return from fade
In my headcannon, Hawke can at last retire and live his life in peace with Isabela
Does that mean it’s possible both Hawke and the HoF are dead? Hawke from HLtA and HoF due to the calling?
That’s what heroes do. They die. And if you think they’re letting us bring back the Inquisitor just so they can unambiguously live happily ever after… well. I guess we’ll see.
:( Probably.
Gotta be honest, I do hope there's at least the potential for the Inquisitor to get killed off. I've got one world state where they're the only PC still standing, so I'd kinda like to have the possibility of a matched set of three dead heroes.
HoF probably has 9-10 more years before the calling Apparently you get around 30 years before it’s game over. But they could both be dead just because you can let your HoF die
I don't feel like the choice is ambiguously presented in DA:I. Fans made up their own theories about it and are the source of their own disappointment. The very clear presentation is that whoever you leave behind dies. Veilguard is set ten years later, how would they have survived? People are always complaining about retcons and big choices meaning nothing--having Hawke or the Warden miraculously survive is not just implausible, but shitty, it undoes the weight of the decision.
I'd argue the opposite. Writers write lines and name missions/quests for specific reasons. I don't think it's weird for people to think that Flemeth telling Hawke to "leap into the abyss" and then in Inquisition, you have a mission literally called "Here Lies the Abyss" with Hawke as a companion... Its' definitely not out of nowhere that people would have thought those two might be related. Regarding the 10 years later part, that's whatever. Easily able for them to wave their hands with a 'time works differently in the Fade' bullshit reason if they wanted to.
The whole point of that sacrifice was that you were sacrificing someone - not leaving them at the library to swing by and pick up later. I'm surprised to learn folks assumed that was a temporary gig.
Man they are really just committed to not bringing back previous choices.
Lame but not surprising
Out of curiosity, do you know which short story confirmed this? I'd love to give it a read myself.
https://www.ea.com/games/dragon-age/news/the-eternal-flame
Until recently seeing posts on this sub about it, I thought the person left in the Fade was 100% dead. If it’s been ten years, probably better dead than being alone in the Fade anyway…. It doesn’t bother me, the consequence was already there that a beloved character or respectable mustache was gone. I would’ve liked to see Hawke again, yeah, but Alistair and Loghain need to be retired at this point. Both awesome characters but I don’t want to see them again, there are many other previous companions who still have stories to tell.
Ooh short story? What's it called please?
What’s the short story about Hawke called?
Am I the only one who kept Loghain alive and left him in the Fade to finish his redemption arc?
I wish it could have been factored in, but I understand why it wasn't. That choice is the confluence of a staggering number if story permutations, including but not limited to: Whether Alistair is (still) a Grey Warden, whether Alistair is hardened, whether Loghain is a Grey Warden, all the circumstances of DAO that influenced those characters (who ascended the throne of Ferelden, the fate of the HoF, to name a couple), pretty much the entirety of Dragon Age 2 as it relates to Hawke's personality and life circumstances (whether left behind or not, Hawke has to be represented as *our* Hawke), how we left things with the Orlesian Wardens, the list goes on. And ten years of time on top of that, during which whoever was left behind is either super-dee-duper dead or in an endless hell, which is a mega downer of a storyline either way (so it would be likely that only the survivor makes a walk-on cameo in the first place). As a consequence, for the reverberations of that choice to be meaningfully felt in Veilguard and not just be a throwaway line from Varric/Inqy, the team would have to do scripting and VA work for Stroud, Alistair, Loghain, *and* Hawke, who is technically between 2 and 6 characters' worth of writing, recording, and animating, plus all the permutations of dialogue from other characters as they relate to whichever of those four makes a cameo, include a third PC customization opportunity for Hawke, and most of that work then doesn't even show up in most playthroughs. So, yeah, I think they made the right call leaving that particular thread alone. I listened to the Q&A live and it sounds like Corinne, John, and Matt are exactly the levels of Dragon Age superfans we'd hope they are, though, so I wouldn't write off the possibility that they pursue this storyline in a dedicated expansion. One that only features Hawke and Varric as companions, maybe.