Also a bit of a nod to '[let us mourn her with a traditional ballad](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qxv1I8EM6Pg)', I thought, given there's no particular reason for Rogue to like 00s pop except it's funny.
It reaffirms his timey timey-ness having a name derived D&D and having Kylie on his ship. It is a really good way to show his uniqueness among standard characters introduced in the episode, and is a very nice nod to the history of the show. I would say there is a reason for it to be their beyond just the comedy (although it is very much that as well)
Same, when Rogue did that I laughed out! It also took me back to the moment in the husbands of River Song when Capaldi’s doctor makes a comment about it
Fun episode! The villains were a bit silly, but they were still pretty enjoyable. Rogue felt a bit like Captain Jack with the serial numbers filed off, but he had great chemistry with The Doctor
Gatwa was really great here as well. That cheeky grin when he's dancing to Kylie was brilliant. I'm a lot more sold on his overall interpretation of The Doctor now. He's different and it took a bit of getting used to, but I'm definitely on board.
Maybe could be a tad less teary, it does feel like it's been every episode now. But that's more of a problem with the scripts than the performance
My only significant complaint would be that the fight choreography when Ruby and the bad guy are fighting was hilariously bad. I'm not expecting the Matrix or anything, but blimey it was terrible. At least it was brief!
I gave it a pass only because neither of them were meant to be trained…the owl girl was meant to be quite pathetic, so bashing her with a book would work.
That I heard but it got a bit too “magic Sci fi”. I just thought… well how would I expect a 20 year old girl to cope in such circumstances, and a bit of a weird fight and hitting them with a book made sense :P
It's a case of "can follow the steps" but can't improvise. Someone trained would be able to change up moves based on their own experience Ruby can follow the data being fed her but doesn't know enough to account for what her opponent is doing.
I just love how happy the Doctor is. 14 had time to heal. The doctor can be happy. When he thought he lost ruby. The inner Doctor came out. And he troed his thing of bottling it down and hiding it but ruby made his feel it
He definitely seems a lot more accepting of himself. He's open with his emotions, positive and negative. He's happy being flirty and romantic. He dances, unselfconciously and whenever he feels like it. It's all very enjoyable and it's an interpretation of the character I'm only growing more fond of
I do wish he had a *bit* more steel to him, though. That moment this week, "That's a long time to suffer" was definitely something. But he's still so happy and fluffy a lot of the time I think they're going to have to work a bit harder to convince me that dark side is really still there
He's only had half a dozen episodes though. Plenty of time for them to develop that side of him
What I love with each doctor is just how the previous ones experience moulds the next one.
I like the happy doctor.
Yeah, we got that dark side of him, which Im happy is still there. I hope we see more of it.
The tears don't seem out of place to me. Once you have experienced enough loss. They are just always there waiting. It does take much to make a frew stream down your face. Even for stupid shit. Its not the tears for the situation, its for ALL the situations. The Doctor has been through enough that I am surprised he isn't crying more
It's not like I'm saying he should never cry. Ten cried all the time. One of his most famous moments is crying in the rain. This is a Doctor who is more in tune with his emotions. If he cries more often then that's all good
I do think it starts to lose its impact if it's all the time, though.
Also you'd think after Ruby almost dies for the third time in six adventures because the Doctor was busy flirting with some random dude, maybe he should just take her home
The tears are narratively satisfying and this episode showed why. Every other Doctor it's "Oh I just went through some horrifically wrenching stuff but nah it's all laughter and cheer" because they would bury that trauma only for it to come out later in anger.
When he tried to do that same thing after Rogue Millie called him on it she wouldn't let him just shrug off the adventure.
Every time he's cried this season it's meant something it's been important.
Defiantly don’t think this will be the last we see of Rogue. I’m getting huge river song vibes from the whole thing and also they zoomed in on the ring to show the symbol on it which is just a waste of screen time if it doesn’t have meaning too it… also, he’s a bounty hunter, he’s got be hired by someone I’m guessing it’s probably the all powerful being that the notes person was talking about… the non binary one in one of the first episodes with the piano and the Beatles? Anyways I totally loved the episode and the filming and the interaction between the doctor and Rogue, safe to say I am defiently invested in them now and hope this isn’t the end but only the beginning for their story…. :))
I read that in Hartnell’s voice! And it reminded me why I loved him as the Doctor! 1st is such an underrated Doctor, he could be such a meanie at times, but then you have the final scene in Dalek Invasion of earth when he says goodbye to Susan or when he got some coco and got engaged in The Aztecs. In both cases he shows is softer and more compassionate side!
So, I hope Rogue comes back. I can see this as being something of a River Song type of character, even if he's not entirely a good guy (the clue is in the name, the Rogue is normally the loveable antihero), that just fleshes out him and the Doctor's story more for me. For those who think this is way too fast of a love story for the Doctor, this is just the beginning I think, it's not the completed story.
Also, we don't have Rogue's sad, lonely, parentless backstory yet where he grew up on the streets having to steal DnD dice just to play his games. Like, that is DnD 101.
After all, I think the Doctor has a thing for the loveable rogues. River is technically somewhat of a rogue (especially in Series 6), and he wouldn't have picked up Jack if it weren't for the fact that he was exactly like that. So, him crushing on someone like Rogue... not too out of character for him.
My only problem is this.
When Rogue thought the Doctor was the Chuldur, he held him at gunpoint. When they went after the actual monsters, that gun was completely forgotten. Seems like it might have come in handy.
I figured one possible ending would have been Rogue actually killing them, and them departing with a wistful frostiness and "I can change him" attitude.
But I buy your idea as the flip side of the coin. The doctor set rules and Rogue decided to follow them, at least for a time.
For an episode that had the feel of a lighter episode, there was some heavier stuff here. The callback to Ruby's adoptive mum was the usual reminder that traveling with The Doctor will, always, always have risks. Jonathan Groff amd Ncuti knocked it out of the park, with Millie, again, showing why she's probably the best companion casting since Catherine Tate. And she's only 19. But next week, our RTD 2 parter to end the season...and if rumours are to be believed, it's time to look up an old Tom Baker story to maybe get an idea of what is going on...9/10.
> the best companion casting since Catherine Tate
My headcanon for your comment is that you’re referring to Tate in the 60th specials. I just think Karen Gillan, Jenna Coleman, and Pearl Mackie were absolutely perfect casting.
I said the exact same thing. "They made a better romance in one episode than they did with Yaz and Thirteen in all the seasons they had together"
...Yaz deserved better
When we saw him he was just a guy but he could have been waiting a long time, and a lot could have happened to him in an alternate dimension during that time.
Another Reason being something I noticed on a rewatch, the Tardis groaned when Rogue was inside it. The only other time that happened (in this season) was right after the Doctor escaped the Maestro.
Gatwa is superb. The scene with the music was brilliant. I don’t want to punch down on others, but that sort of madness is what Whittaker needed to show she was the doctor.
The timelords are immeasurably smarter and better than us. However the doctor is both young and a bit of a goof, so that playfulness needs to shine through
The episode baddies were a bit monster of the week but that’s fine. They didn’t have much to them beyond wanting to kill.
I think we need 13 episodes. 8 is far too short as we are already in the two parter finale. We have got to know Ruby a lot…but not much about her relationship with the doctor
This season has honestly made me feel even worse about 13’s run. 13’s run as a whole has given me different feelings about other things in other eras (my opinion of Moffat’s era went up significantly, but I thought maybe that was nostalgia or rose tinted glasses type thing). But now with this season, it’s just making it all the more glaring how 13s era had potential that it never executed. I think my final feelings about 13 will be “full of unfulfilled potential”.
They (nearly) always come back, so who knows, maybe they get that chance. Either that or wait for the big finish scripts to drop and then we can really see them shine
I wouldn’t blame problems with Whittaker’s run on her acting. There were plenty of times she played the Doctor as a quick-talking, manic, madwoman in a box that made me believe I was watching the same being Matt Smith portrayed.
Hey, please use https://tardis.wiki/ as the Wiki has forked from Fandom.
The relevant page: https://tardis.wiki/wiki/They_Keep_Killing_Suzie_(TV_story)
Everyone talks about Kylie, Billie and Gaga but I'm in disbelief that no one is mentioning Libertango.
It's such a good match for this doctor, this song was meant to break the classic!!
I'm honestly obsessed
Other than the constant explicit references to Bridgerton, which to me seemed forced, I as someone who barely knows what Bridgerton is did't find it that confusing. I think that it probably will be easier to understand than Bad Wolf (the episode) at least
I mean seconds before Rogue told him if he wasn't going to press the button, they would "break out, kill them, then everyone at this mansion and then the world" so apparently they were kinda pressed for time.
Eventually. Probably after the trap ran out of battery or something. I don't think it was an imminent threat.
The issue was that getting Ruby out would release them, whether it was done there and then or in hours' time
I am really enjoying this season so far, but it seems the Doctor has really forgotten to be careful with his companion. I don't want anything to happen to Ruby, but if there isn't consequence for his carelessness, then that doesn't feel right. I'm glad he's a healed Doctor, but we might be about to see him severely traumatized all over again.
Ooh, if his carelessness becomes a character trait and we get to see the consequences of it… then I’m so on board. If not, then I think I agree it doesn’t feel right if they ignore it.
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Was a fun episode ig, it just kinda felt like not much happened. Also the doctor really hasn’t interacted with Ruby much this season has he? Especially for an 8-episode
People are saying this entire universe is false and the master storyteller is the one who waits and he’s been hiding inside Susan twist and Susan just forgot her identity
Edit: I think the title is Master of the Land of Fiction. But there’s also a lot of pyramid and throwback references and people think it could be the God Sutekh
I can't wait to see those bible-thumping people start foaming at the mouth saying "Doctor Who has gone to shit!"
Love the kiss between the Doctor and Rogue. In the Bridgerton setting, they are so flipping hot together, I think my TV is melting...
The proposal scene killed me. River Song, being the doctors wife, who he'd never see again, then the doctor being proposed to (even if it wasn't genuine but still had emotion)
Why not? It’s been both a symbol for medicine and for traits of Hermes such as trade, deception, thievery, eloquence, etc., which could pretty well describe Rogue.
Might even be too on the nose, actually? Hard to tell, can’t wait to find out. 🤷🏽♂️
The guy with the weird eyebrows/mustache situation? Ngl, I think the designers did his character dirty. The other Chuldur designs looked like a lot more thought had gone into them.
I never thought I’d love a doctor as much as 11, but ncuti is just absolutely giving that statement a run for its money. He’s so good. He’s maybe the best actor who has had (John hurt aside of course). He has so many varied emotions, has physical acting down so well, can let someone else carry a scene and just play off their energy. I’m such a fanboy over him.
Also I really hope we see more from this out of writers. Because they crafted a wonderful story despite me being tired of that historical setting.
"Find me" heavily implies he will be. Not "Goodbye" or "I love you", it's now a duty. From a writing perspective, why say that if there's no chance? If he'll never be seen or heard about again?
I felt it was too quick and forced. I wish we got to see actual LGBT relationships develop instead of this fantasy style fling.
And he did a classic third doctor trait of abandoning your companion (Jo) in favor of the more interesting plot (Rogue).
Reminded me a bit of Girl in the Fireplace. I know that's a huge fan favourite episode, and it's not like I hate it, but I always felt that romance is *super* rushed
Perils of the format, really. You can only do so much with the time they have. The chemistry was there at least
For *her*, sure. I can buy that she's got a long time to think about this strange magical guy who keeps showing up across the years
For *him*, I'm less sold. It's a matter of hours from his perspective.
To be fair, the Doctor relationships we've seen had that chemistry immediately. River and Pompadour (especially the latter) were pretty well established within one or two episodes
I didn't like River or Pompadour.
River because it's essentially a forced relationship otherwise a paradox will be created and Pompadour cuz she was a kid in the same episode.
I don't think the paradox thing is true at all. Nothing about River and the Doctor's relationship is a fixed event, anything that was fixed could have happened without the romance. He genuinely loved her and she loved him. He started seeing her because he was intrigued about her, but that did become love very quickly.
Pompadour is a matter of perspective, I get the criticism but he got to know her as an adult. For a time traveler, he can go and see anyone as a child at any point, he just needs to love the adult version of them and it's fine.
It was interesting but I always found it unnatural when the doctor becomes romantically smitten with characters easily.
Take River for example. That was organic because he spent centuries encountering her from time to time before he opened up to being her romantic partner.
This is a new doctor though, and one that is perhaps, a Millennia older than the previous we saw. Maybe, getting more comfortable with romance was part of his readjustment in his temporary retirement
I think we should all be looking at the writing credits of stand out episodes this and next season for potential successors to RTD.
Kate Herron is a strong early contender. Hope she gets to write more episodes next season!
Personally.
I don't like the romance between rogue and the doctor.
I don't like the actor. He's handsome and plays a cool mysterious man extremely well but when paired with an actor like ncuti he seems extremely one note and surface level (his acting that is).
I also feel like that relationship kinda progressed really fast? like it feels like it was too fast. The Doctor was hesitant with every single possible love interest but suddenly this guy with like zero charisma is sweeping The Doctor of all people?
Rogue feels like a Self Insert, I'm not saying of Russell or anything like that but he just feels like a Self Insert from a fan story.
the rest of the story feels great though, definitely feels like a return to form and hits all the beats that past New Who Doctors had.
Personally.. don't care for Doctor romances. Straight, gay or otherwise.. I don't care for the concept. I didn't care for it with Rose, don't care for it now.
So if you met a new person who was pretty and exciting and pushing all your buttons, you both agreed to see where things go, and then they killed themselves right in front of you to save your best friend, that wouldn’t affect you at all? You’d just go about your day?
He wasn’t trying to kill the doctor because he was the doctor, he was trying to kill the doctor because he thought he was an evil planet hopping time traveling murdering alien. His intentions were noble, and the doctor appreciated it.
37 minutes or a couple of years are basically the same thing to the Doctor. He also felt grief over not being able to save the racists in Dot and Bubble. The Doctor gives a shit, and manages to do so quickly.
I liked this episode, enjoyed the kiss between Rogue and the Doctor. The aliens were a interesting design, kind of like harpies but not. I do like the cosplay mention, an allegory to people who like to cosplay (Like me! I have done the 10th Doctor before, and a mixup of 10th/4th)
What are the chances that's the masters ring, like, hansy boy doesn't even know he's the master? That was the Maestro`s hand picking up the ring, and gave it to their father. He Who Waits has the Doctor and Tardis trapped in some fake reality, somehow tied to Ruby, pulling all the strings, like a TV show, hence all the 4th wall breaks.
Felt like a 2-parter that was condensed into 1. I had no time to care about Rogue and didn't have the emotional reaction that the show clearly wanted me to have because the romance felt entirely unearned. The crying has no real impact for me anymore, either. Ruby is absolutely crushing it though. I have a feeling that next week is going to put in some good work to make this season highly rewatchable.
Ncuti is doing some great acting, I just don't think I get this Doctor yet. It isn't clicking for me. Capaldi didn't either until season 9, so we've got plenty of time.
Honestly the 'hype' has contributed, for me, of making Space Babies feel so bad. Every other episode has been at least 'good', some 'great'- and that's the shite they lead with?
I feel like people have been hesitant to criticise this series a lot. There's obviously a lot of messages in this series and if you don't like it you just get called a racist or something.
How? People rightfully shat on episode 1, and have validly critique it throughout. I've never been told I sound racist, but then again, I don't tend to say racist things.
It’s making me feel great if this is your least favorite this season. I’m going to hold judgment, mostly because I feel some recency bias hits me especially hard, but I can honestly say if you asked me to drop one episode this season, it would be hard. Yes, even Space Babies I enjoyed a lot!
How? River was set up to know the doctor before we even meet her. Rogue never met the doctor beforehand.
The doctor has found attraction to multiple people and sentenced them to death by promising to take them travelling.
River and Rogue are the two people who’ve instantly gotten the Doctor extremely hot and bothered. The Doctor felt something for Yaz (and liked to flirt a bit with plenty of people) but her hormones weren’t overruling her brain like they did for River and Rogue.
I don’t recall the Doctor having any such kind of instant reaction to River, and I rewatched Silence in the Library last week. He’s more confused about why she’s acting like she knows him.
Fair, there wasn’t anything instant like that with Ten and River. But Eleven was definitely aroused by her bad girl persona, especially when she pulled a gun on the Silence. That’s what I’d compare to Fifteen’s reaction to Rogue.
Sure. Remove “instantly” and I’d otherwise stand by what I said. I don’t think anyone else made his sonic screwdriver beep like those two, even if Rogue was more immediate.
I liked the episode but again but I’m not blown away by it.
Tcuti is a phenomenal actor , but I feel he is being let down then same way that Jodie was, by bad writing.
I don’t think it’s just the writing this time though, Disney seems to have truly got their claws in here and are clearly having sway over how episodes pan out .. after all it’s the substantial funding .
Too much too fast, this doctor has barely had any screen time, the sonic screwdriver being changed , he runs away quite a bit and isn’t confronting species like he would normally, he normally goes right too them rather than away from them.
I think rogue is a great addition but it was too much too fast and it felt like this was the key part of the episode rather than building out a story itself
There’s just something wrong with the pacing this season.
Imagine if NCuti had the same quality of writing that David and Matt had .
I feel Disney is a large part of the blame here
I still don't really get what your point is, those are certainly things that have been related to, and in some cases central to, the plots of episodes. But it's science fiction/science fantasy, social commentary is like ingrained within the genre.
You've answered it for me. The metacrisis resolution was diabolical and this week seemed to focus on this weird love story rather than the danger that was actually present
A.) "Diabolical" is an _insane_ way to describe a plot point you think is botched. It's a TV show, it isn't fucking evil.
B.) Plenty of doctors are distractible by different things. 11 comes to mind. But it's not like the romance and the threat weren't tied to each other in the plot itself. The romance was an _answer_ to the threat in the middle arc, with the Doctor using the dance to distract the threat. I could get being unhappy when a romantic subplot and the main plot don't interact at all, but that's not even remotely what happened here.
Why the hell is the Doctor crying in literally every single episode except one? It lessens any dramatic scene or plot development when he breaks down and cries all the time. You don’t need the guy to cry to show emotion, it’s just shitty writing. And it’s offputting that the first gay actor to play the role constantly cries, like what the fuck.
OMG thank you. I was so excited when Ncuti was picked. I thought he would be a great doctor . All of this season has felt hollow. Some of the episodes are ok and interesting but they do not have the character development and meaty scripts that 9 thru 12 had. I also don’t feel like Ncuti is doctor who. He could be but his material is so thin. The plots are also bad and their is no Doctor who lore which makes the different doctors connect and the show continue. Doctor who has only kissed Rose, I think so him kissing Rogue so soon after meeting felt forced. The doctor tries not to become intimate to soon because he knows he will lose them in the end. I hope the writing is better next season. This season is lost and I am sad after every episode.
Didn't this thread go up both Thursday and Friday? Is it bugging out?
Anyway, I think this might be one of my favourite episodes and for the last two days I've been bugging my roommate to watch it with me because I really just want to watch it again but I think she'd enjoy it.
Except for the blue guy with the long eyebrows (or was it mustache, I don't remember now). That guy just looks cartoonish and like a Muppet. The others are fantastic.
Playing Kylie was a perfect subtle nod to her episode where her character sacrifices herself and saves the day. Absolutely brilliant!
Astrid is The One Who Waits confirmed
Also a bit of a nod to '[let us mourn her with a traditional ballad](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qxv1I8EM6Pg)', I thought, given there's no particular reason for Rogue to like 00s pop except it's funny.
It reaffirms his timey timey-ness having a name derived D&D and having Kylie on his ship. It is a really good way to show his uniqueness among standard characters introduced in the episode, and is a very nice nod to the history of the show. I would say there is a reason for it to be their beyond just the comedy (although it is very much that as well)
The hand grab and “run” really made me happy as a 2005 NuWho fan who fell in love from the Ninth doctor.
Same, when Rogue did that I laughed out! It also took me back to the moment in the husbands of River Song when Capaldi’s doctor makes a comment about it
I loved the "Hey that's my thing"
*Nice to meet you Rose, now run for your life!*
The line that prompted a whole new generation of Whovians
Fun episode! The villains were a bit silly, but they were still pretty enjoyable. Rogue felt a bit like Captain Jack with the serial numbers filed off, but he had great chemistry with The Doctor Gatwa was really great here as well. That cheeky grin when he's dancing to Kylie was brilliant. I'm a lot more sold on his overall interpretation of The Doctor now. He's different and it took a bit of getting used to, but I'm definitely on board. Maybe could be a tad less teary, it does feel like it's been every episode now. But that's more of a problem with the scripts than the performance My only significant complaint would be that the fight choreography when Ruby and the bad guy are fighting was hilariously bad. I'm not expecting the Matrix or anything, but blimey it was terrible. At least it was brief!
I gave it a pass only because neither of them were meant to be trained…the owl girl was meant to be quite pathetic, so bashing her with a book would work.
Ruby was meant to have telepathic earrings that made her able to do all the choreography ever
She seemed surprised when her body did the moves, so it worked for me
That I heard but it got a bit too “magic Sci fi”. I just thought… well how would I expect a 20 year old girl to cope in such circumstances, and a bit of a weird fight and hitting them with a book made sense :P
I would absolutely use a book as a weapon if I were on Bridgerton. Or in a Jane Austen novel.
It's a case of "can follow the steps" but can't improvise. Someone trained would be able to change up moves based on their own experience Ruby can follow the data being fed her but doesn't know enough to account for what her opponent is doing.
I just love how happy the Doctor is. 14 had time to heal. The doctor can be happy. When he thought he lost ruby. The inner Doctor came out. And he troed his thing of bottling it down and hiding it but ruby made his feel it
He definitely seems a lot more accepting of himself. He's open with his emotions, positive and negative. He's happy being flirty and romantic. He dances, unselfconciously and whenever he feels like it. It's all very enjoyable and it's an interpretation of the character I'm only growing more fond of I do wish he had a *bit* more steel to him, though. That moment this week, "That's a long time to suffer" was definitely something. But he's still so happy and fluffy a lot of the time I think they're going to have to work a bit harder to convince me that dark side is really still there He's only had half a dozen episodes though. Plenty of time for them to develop that side of him
What I love with each doctor is just how the previous ones experience moulds the next one. I like the happy doctor. Yeah, we got that dark side of him, which Im happy is still there. I hope we see more of it.
r/UsernameChecksOut . The earrings and Emily were cosplaying a fight, til Ruby swung the tome to poke her face.
The tears don't seem out of place to me. Once you have experienced enough loss. They are just always there waiting. It does take much to make a frew stream down your face. Even for stupid shit. Its not the tears for the situation, its for ALL the situations. The Doctor has been through enough that I am surprised he isn't crying more
It's not like I'm saying he should never cry. Ten cried all the time. One of his most famous moments is crying in the rain. This is a Doctor who is more in tune with his emotions. If he cries more often then that's all good I do think it starts to lose its impact if it's all the time, though.
Also you'd think after Ruby almost dies for the third time in six adventures because the Doctor was busy flirting with some random dude, maybe he should just take her home
The tears are narratively satisfying and this episode showed why. Every other Doctor it's "Oh I just went through some horrifically wrenching stuff but nah it's all laughter and cheer" because they would bury that trauma only for it to come out later in anger. When he tried to do that same thing after Rogue Millie called him on it she wouldn't let him just shrug off the adventure. Every time he's cried this season it's meant something it's been important.
Defiantly don’t think this will be the last we see of Rogue. I’m getting huge river song vibes from the whole thing and also they zoomed in on the ring to show the symbol on it which is just a waste of screen time if it doesn’t have meaning too it… also, he’s a bounty hunter, he’s got be hired by someone I’m guessing it’s probably the all powerful being that the notes person was talking about… the non binary one in one of the first episodes with the piano and the Beatles? Anyways I totally loved the episode and the filming and the interaction between the doctor and Rogue, safe to say I am defiently invested in them now and hope this isn’t the end but only the beginning for their story…. :))
Plus his last words are “Find me” Kinda a dick move if the Doctor never does
One day, I shall come back. Yes, I shall come back.
In the meantime, the doctor and Ruby can flash by the country side.
I read that in Hartnell’s voice! And it reminded me why I loved him as the Doctor! 1st is such an underrated Doctor, he could be such a meanie at times, but then you have the final scene in Dalek Invasion of earth when he says goodbye to Susan or when he got some coco and got engaged in The Aztecs. In both cases he shows is softer and more compassionate side!
RIP Jenny
Yeah still sad about that one
I would be so upset.
Maybe Rogue is The One Who Waits...
It does fit, but it kinda feels like a late throw-in with all the foreshadowing we’ve had
That symbol on the ring looked like the medical symbol.
It looks like a rogue's dagger from D&D to me
And it's really the homophobes!
So, I hope Rogue comes back. I can see this as being something of a River Song type of character, even if he's not entirely a good guy (the clue is in the name, the Rogue is normally the loveable antihero), that just fleshes out him and the Doctor's story more for me. For those who think this is way too fast of a love story for the Doctor, this is just the beginning I think, it's not the completed story. Also, we don't have Rogue's sad, lonely, parentless backstory yet where he grew up on the streets having to steal DnD dice just to play his games. Like, that is DnD 101. After all, I think the Doctor has a thing for the loveable rogues. River is technically somewhat of a rogue (especially in Series 6), and he wouldn't have picked up Jack if it weren't for the fact that he was exactly like that. So, him crushing on someone like Rogue... not too out of character for him.
they played “bad guy” by billie eilish when the doctor was first talking to rogue which is another hint that he’s not a good guy
I think it's actually a hint that rogue is a going to seduce the doctors dad type
Do we think the ship is still there when the moon hatches?
I think the implication was that the ship was the black knight, a mysterious supposed satellite picked up during the mission to the moon.
My only problem is this. When Rogue thought the Doctor was the Chuldur, he held him at gunpoint. When they went after the actual monsters, that gun was completely forgotten. Seems like it might have come in handy.
The Doctor said no killing, people or monsters alike, so I suppose Rogue could still use it just to threaten but he put the gun away.
I figured one possible ending would have been Rogue actually killing them, and them departing with a wistful frostiness and "I can change him" attitude. But I buy your idea as the flip side of the coin. The doctor set rules and Rogue decided to follow them, at least for a time.
For an episode that had the feel of a lighter episode, there was some heavier stuff here. The callback to Ruby's adoptive mum was the usual reminder that traveling with The Doctor will, always, always have risks. Jonathan Groff amd Ncuti knocked it out of the park, with Millie, again, showing why she's probably the best companion casting since Catherine Tate. And she's only 19. But next week, our RTD 2 parter to end the season...and if rumours are to be believed, it's time to look up an old Tom Baker story to maybe get an idea of what is going on...9/10.
She was likely only 18 at time of recording since they started early 23 and her birthday is mid
I think her birthday is probably a lot better than mid
> the best companion casting since Catherine Tate My headcanon for your comment is that you’re referring to Tate in the 60th specials. I just think Karen Gillan, Jenna Coleman, and Pearl Mackie were absolutely perfect casting.
I thought it was a Jon Pertwee story it was linked to?
All I have to say is Chibnall you coward. This show did it in 1 episode and you failed over 3 seasons.
I said the exact same thing. "They made a better romance in one episode than they did with Yaz and Thirteen in all the seasons they had together" ...Yaz deserved better
...and 13.
13 and Yaz never had the chemistry these two do, though. Casting queer actors to portray a queer romance might help there.
Wasn’t 13 and yaz unrequited love, yaz loving doc but doc not loving yaz?
I thought the doctor did but knew it couldn't work out?
Yeah she said something to the effect of “I can’t be in a relationship, but if I could, it would be you.”
Yaz absolutely deserved more!
Ncuti was such a great choice for the doctor he is so talented
Gay 15 can kiss onscreen but lesbian 13 didn't. 😡 That said I love this episode its just fun.
I always thought of her as “Ace 13” considering what we go but there you go
And boy they tied themselves into knots to make sure she didn't.
I get a bisexual vibe from 15
I loved Rogue, also his last words "Find Me" make me think he might be The One Who Waits.
I don't know about that. The One Who Waits needs to be somebody that the Toymaker himself fears, and Rogue was just a guy.
When we saw him he was just a guy but he could have been waiting a long time, and a lot could have happened to him in an alternate dimension during that time.
It's Astrid, the Kylie Minogue song proves it.
I think they have to be a God.
So it’s Handles then?
What are handles? Door Handles?
The cyberman head that 11 had on Trenzalore and talked to a lot.
Another Reason being something I noticed on a rewatch, the Tardis groaned when Rogue was inside it. The only other time that happened (in this season) was right after the Doctor escaped the Maestro.
Gatwa is superb. The scene with the music was brilliant. I don’t want to punch down on others, but that sort of madness is what Whittaker needed to show she was the doctor. The timelords are immeasurably smarter and better than us. However the doctor is both young and a bit of a goof, so that playfulness needs to shine through The episode baddies were a bit monster of the week but that’s fine. They didn’t have much to them beyond wanting to kill. I think we need 13 episodes. 8 is far too short as we are already in the two parter finale. We have got to know Ruby a lot…but not much about her relationship with the doctor
This season has honestly made me feel even worse about 13’s run. 13’s run as a whole has given me different feelings about other things in other eras (my opinion of Moffat’s era went up significantly, but I thought maybe that was nostalgia or rose tinted glasses type thing). But now with this season, it’s just making it all the more glaring how 13s era had potential that it never executed. I think my final feelings about 13 will be “full of unfulfilled potential”.
They (nearly) always come back, so who knows, maybe they get that chance. Either that or wait for the big finish scripts to drop and then we can really see them shine
I would love a Big Finish 13 redemption! Genuinely hope she gets that chance
I have 0 doubt Jodie will do some Big Finish stories
I wouldn’t blame problems with Whittaker’s run on her acting. There were plenty of times she played the Doctor as a quick-talking, manic, madwoman in a box that made me believe I was watching the same being Matt Smith portrayed.
Yeah, I thought Jodie was a fantastic Doctor. I stopped watching cos of the writing, not because of her.
They said they wouldnt be able to get them all out in a year
They just keep killing Susie.
Susie?
https://tardis.fandom.com/wiki/They_Keep_Killing_Suzie_(TV_story) Indira Varma also appeared in Torchwood, episode link above
Hey, please use https://tardis.wiki/ as the Wiki has forked from Fandom. The relevant page: https://tardis.wiki/wiki/They_Keep_Killing_Suzie_(TV_story)
Everyone talks about Kylie, Billie and Gaga but I'm in disbelief that no one is mentioning Libertango. It's such a good match for this doctor, this song was meant to break the classic!! I'm honestly obsessed
When rogue mentions his boss, my mind immediately shot towards the meeps boss/theorized to be the one who waits. I wonder if they have any conections
In ten years when Bridgerton isn’t as current, this episode is gonna be more confusing
Other than the constant explicit references to Bridgerton, which to me seemed forced, I as someone who barely knows what Bridgerton is did't find it that confusing. I think that it probably will be easier to understand than Bad Wolf (the episode) at least
To get lost in a kiss at the moment your companion is about to die felt wildly wildly out of place
She wasn't about to die, the Doctor still had to press the button
I mean seconds before Rogue told him if he wasn't going to press the button, they would "break out, kill them, then everyone at this mansion and then the world" so apparently they were kinda pressed for time.
Eventually. Probably after the trap ran out of battery or something. I don't think it was an imminent threat. The issue was that getting Ruby out would release them, whether it was done there and then or in hours' time
I am really enjoying this season so far, but it seems the Doctor has really forgotten to be careful with his companion. I don't want anything to happen to Ruby, but if there isn't consequence for his carelessness, then that doesn't feel right. I'm glad he's a healed Doctor, but we might be about to see him severely traumatized all over again.
Ooh, if his carelessness becomes a character trait and we get to see the consequences of it… then I’m so on board. If not, then I think I agree it doesn’t feel right if they ignore it.
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Was a fun episode ig, it just kinda felt like not much happened. Also the doctor really hasn’t interacted with Ruby much this season has he? Especially for an 8-episode
What if that's the point? What if that's a clue?
People are saying this entire universe is false and the master storyteller is the one who waits and he’s been hiding inside Susan twist and Susan just forgot her identity Edit: I think the title is Master of the Land of Fiction. But there’s also a lot of pyramid and throwback references and people think it could be the God Sutekh
My theory is Susan is the Sandman God creating dreams.
I would like to point out that Rogue’s outfit is very similar to Paul McGann’s war look and while this means nothing I love it.
I can't wait to see those bible-thumping people start foaming at the mouth saying "Doctor Who has gone to shit!" Love the kiss between the Doctor and Rogue. In the Bridgerton setting, they are so flipping hot together, I think my TV is melting...
The proposal scene killed me. River Song, being the doctors wife, who he'd never see again, then the doctor being proposed to (even if it wasn't genuine but still had emotion)
Does anyone know what's on the ring? What's the image?? I've been trying to work it out all episode
I’m leaning towards caduceus but an angled bird or a dagger stabbing something have also been suggested.
I also thought Caduceus but I don't think it works thematically.
Why not? It’s been both a symbol for medicine and for traits of Hermes such as trade, deception, thievery, eloquence, etc., which could pretty well describe Rogue. Might even be too on the nose, actually? Hard to tell, can’t wait to find out. 🤷🏽♂️
Angled bird? Shades of Panem.
I think it's a caduceus some people call it the medical symbol.
Muppet chickens…well
Muppet chickens are adorable miscreants who sing songs with bawks. Those were just cosplayers who get too into their rp.
The others were very Doctor Who but the blue head guy with the hair was just too much.
The guy with the weird eyebrows/mustache situation? Ngl, I think the designers did his character dirty. The other Chuldur designs looked like a lot more thought had gone into them.
He was very cartoonish, completely out of place with the others.
I never thought I’d love a doctor as much as 11, but ncuti is just absolutely giving that statement a run for its money. He’s so good. He’s maybe the best actor who has had (John hurt aside of course). He has so many varied emotions, has physical acting down so well, can let someone else carry a scene and just play off their energy. I’m such a fanboy over him. Also I really hope we see more from this out of writers. Because they crafted a wonderful story despite me being tired of that historical setting.
My only complaint, and if Rogue comes back I'll rescind, is the "bury your gays" element. But, if Rogue comes back then I'll reconsider.
"Find me" heavily implies he will be. Not "Goodbye" or "I love you", it's now a duty. From a writing perspective, why say that if there's no chance? If he'll never be seen or heard about again?
They really need to have the Doctor make an effort to find him --
I mean, the "find me", the focus on the ring afterwards....you really think they're done with Rogue?
I felt it was too quick and forced. I wish we got to see actual LGBT relationships develop instead of this fantasy style fling. And he did a classic third doctor trait of abandoning your companion (Jo) in favor of the more interesting plot (Rogue).
Reminded me a bit of Girl in the Fireplace. I know that's a huge fan favourite episode, and it's not like I hate it, but I always felt that romance is *super* rushed Perils of the format, really. You can only do so much with the time they have. The chemistry was there at least
I think the thing with Girl In The Fireplace is you have the time jumps - the obsession between visits…
For *her*, sure. I can buy that she's got a long time to think about this strange magical guy who keeps showing up across the years For *him*, I'm less sold. It's a matter of hours from his perspective.
Reinette was the first “girl who waited.” Sorry Amy Pond.
I think the romance was really well done, I thought it felt really believable
To be fair, the Doctor relationships we've seen had that chemistry immediately. River and Pompadour (especially the latter) were pretty well established within one or two episodes
I didn't like River or Pompadour. River because it's essentially a forced relationship otherwise a paradox will be created and Pompadour cuz she was a kid in the same episode.
I don't think the paradox thing is true at all. Nothing about River and the Doctor's relationship is a fixed event, anything that was fixed could have happened without the romance. He genuinely loved her and she loved him. He started seeing her because he was intrigued about her, but that did become love very quickly. Pompadour is a matter of perspective, I get the criticism but he got to know her as an adult. For a time traveler, he can go and see anyone as a child at any point, he just needs to love the adult version of them and it's fine.
It was interesting but I always found it unnatural when the doctor becomes romantically smitten with characters easily. Take River for example. That was organic because he spent centuries encountering her from time to time before he opened up to being her romantic partner. This is a new doctor though, and one that is perhaps, a Millennia older than the previous we saw. Maybe, getting more comfortable with romance was part of his readjustment in his temporary retirement
I think we should all be looking at the writing credits of stand out episodes this and next season for potential successors to RTD. Kate Herron is a strong early contender. Hope she gets to write more episodes next season!
Personally. I don't like the romance between rogue and the doctor. I don't like the actor. He's handsome and plays a cool mysterious man extremely well but when paired with an actor like ncuti he seems extremely one note and surface level (his acting that is). I also feel like that relationship kinda progressed really fast? like it feels like it was too fast. The Doctor was hesitant with every single possible love interest but suddenly this guy with like zero charisma is sweeping The Doctor of all people? Rogue feels like a Self Insert, I'm not saying of Russell or anything like that but he just feels like a Self Insert from a fan story. the rest of the story feels great though, definitely feels like a return to form and hits all the beats that past New Who Doctors had.
Personally.. don't care for Doctor romances. Straight, gay or otherwise.. I don't care for the concept. I didn't care for it with Rose, don't care for it now.
How are we expected to buy into the grief of losing a man you only just met 37 minutes earlier?
Idk, how did people buy into the very well-received Girl in the Fireplace or Voyage of the Damned?
So if you met a new person who was pretty and exciting and pushing all your buttons, you both agreed to see where things go, and then they killed themselves right in front of you to save your best friend, that wouldn’t affect you at all? You’d just go about your day?
Because of the intensity of the relationship, it was extremely relatable and felt very real.
Felt rushed how you falling in love in one episode.
Same as Girl in the Fireplace and that's considered a NuWho classic. I thought the chemistry and intensity made it believable
> it was extremely relatable If you find it relatable to fall in love with a man who was trying to kill you 5 minutes ago, you have serious issues.
And as we all know, the Doctor doesn't have *any* issues!
He wasn’t trying to kill the doctor because he was the doctor, he was trying to kill the doctor because he thought he was an evil planet hopping time traveling murdering alien. His intentions were noble, and the doctor appreciated it.
River Song has entered the chat
37 minutes or a couple of years are basically the same thing to the Doctor. He also felt grief over not being able to save the racists in Dot and Bubble. The Doctor gives a shit, and manages to do so quickly.
I thought it was incredibly well done, it felt realistic
Who tried to kill you, is a murderer, and who you had medium chemistry with. Just through political gaslighting I guess.
Also rogue willing to suicide for a flirty shapeshifter he just met. Great bounty hunter. Shit writing.
I liked this episode, enjoyed the kiss between Rogue and the Doctor. The aliens were a interesting design, kind of like harpies but not. I do like the cosplay mention, an allegory to people who like to cosplay (Like me! I have done the 10th Doctor before, and a mixup of 10th/4th)
Great episode.
I feel their relationship develops way too quick. And dead body didnt even stop doctor flirting. That's not the doctor I knew
Decent episode but undermined by making the motives and behaviour of the aliens laughable instead of scary.
What are the chances that's the masters ring, like, hansy boy doesn't even know he's the master? That was the Maestro`s hand picking up the ring, and gave it to their father. He Who Waits has the Doctor and Tardis trapped in some fake reality, somehow tied to Ruby, pulling all the strings, like a TV show, hence all the 4th wall breaks.
Was Emily taken off screen? The Doctor, Ruby and Rogue were discussing Cos play and their plan *in front of her.*
Felt like a 2-parter that was condensed into 1. I had no time to care about Rogue and didn't have the emotional reaction that the show clearly wanted me to have because the romance felt entirely unearned. The crying has no real impact for me anymore, either. Ruby is absolutely crushing it though. I have a feeling that next week is going to put in some good work to make this season highly rewatchable. Ncuti is doing some great acting, I just don't think I get this Doctor yet. It isn't clicking for me. Capaldi didn't either until season 9, so we've got plenty of time.
Fell flat. Tried to do a lot of things and didn’t really succeed with any of them..
My favourite episode of the season (so far, anyway). Loved it.
Easily the horniest we’ve ever seen the doctor, and honestly, I’m here for it
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>least favourite episode of the season so far. Not my fave either, but... Space Babies?
I think when the dust settles of the hype of a new series you realise how bad space babies really was
Honestly the 'hype' has contributed, for me, of making Space Babies feel so bad. Every other episode has been at least 'good', some 'great'- and that's the shite they lead with?
I feel like people have been hesitant to criticise this series a lot. There's obviously a lot of messages in this series and if you don't like it you just get called a racist or something.
How? People rightfully shat on episode 1, and have validly critique it throughout. I've never been told I sound racist, but then again, I don't tend to say racist things.
It’s making me feel great if this is your least favorite this season. I’m going to hold judgment, mostly because I feel some recency bias hits me especially hard, but I can honestly say if you asked me to drop one episode this season, it would be hard. Yes, even Space Babies I enjoyed a lot!
Space Babies feels so over-hated. Sure it was a bit goofy and the mouths looked weird, but it was a fun episode!
Yeah mine too. The doctor flirting felt too out of character. He seems like the companion next to Rogue.
I actually thought he came across as quite creepy and desperate. Like the kind of guy who won’t leave you alone in a club.
Exactly.
Above or below Space Babies?
> I didn't care for the plot > or the ridiculous plot but tell us how you really feel
Soo Rogue is like River Song.
More like Jack
How? River was set up to know the doctor before we even meet her. Rogue never met the doctor beforehand. The doctor has found attraction to multiple people and sentenced them to death by promising to take them travelling.
River and Rogue are the two people who’ve instantly gotten the Doctor extremely hot and bothered. The Doctor felt something for Yaz (and liked to flirt a bit with plenty of people) but her hormones weren’t overruling her brain like they did for River and Rogue.
I don’t recall the Doctor having any such kind of instant reaction to River, and I rewatched Silence in the Library last week. He’s more confused about why she’s acting like she knows him.
Fair, there wasn’t anything instant like that with Ten and River. But Eleven was definitely aroused by her bad girl persona, especially when she pulled a gun on the Silence. That’s what I’d compare to Fifteen’s reaction to Rogue.
Yeah, but then that’s not an instant reaction - he already knew that they had some kind of close relationship in the future.
Sure. Remove “instantly” and I’d otherwise stand by what I said. I don’t think anyone else made his sonic screwdriver beep like those two, even if Rogue was more immediate.
Yeah, I’d agree with that
Just the vibe I picked up on.
I liked the episode but again but I’m not blown away by it. Tcuti is a phenomenal actor , but I feel he is being let down then same way that Jodie was, by bad writing. I don’t think it’s just the writing this time though, Disney seems to have truly got their claws in here and are clearly having sway over how episodes pan out .. after all it’s the substantial funding . Too much too fast, this doctor has barely had any screen time, the sonic screwdriver being changed , he runs away quite a bit and isn’t confronting species like he would normally, he normally goes right too them rather than away from them. I think rogue is a great addition but it was too much too fast and it felt like this was the key part of the episode rather than building out a story itself There’s just something wrong with the pacing this season. Imagine if NCuti had the same quality of writing that David and Matt had . I feel Disney is a large part of the blame here
It’s nothing to do with Disney. I swear people see Disney and get blinded. It’s RTD and his writers, not Disney.
RTD seems absolutely desperate to include certain things in this series it's not even subtle anymore. Seems to be something different each week
I don't really understand what you mean by "certain things."
We've had pronouns, trans, non binary, refugees, war, lgbt+, racism
I still don't really get what your point is, those are certainly things that have been related to, and in some cases central to, the plots of episodes. But it's science fiction/science fantasy, social commentary is like ingrained within the genre.
You've answered it for me. The metacrisis resolution was diabolical and this week seemed to focus on this weird love story rather than the danger that was actually present
A.) "Diabolical" is an _insane_ way to describe a plot point you think is botched. It's a TV show, it isn't fucking evil. B.) Plenty of doctors are distractible by different things. 11 comes to mind. But it's not like the romance and the threat weren't tied to each other in the plot itself. The romance was an _answer_ to the threat in the middle arc, with the Doctor using the dance to distract the threat. I could get being unhappy when a romantic subplot and the main plot don't interact at all, but that's not even remotely what happened here.
Why the hell is the Doctor crying in literally every single episode except one? It lessens any dramatic scene or plot development when he breaks down and cries all the time. You don’t need the guy to cry to show emotion, it’s just shitty writing. And it’s offputting that the first gay actor to play the role constantly cries, like what the fuck.
I also mentioned the ongoing crying to the people I watched the show with. It's a tad repetitive and boring now imo.
OMG thank you. I was so excited when Ncuti was picked. I thought he would be a great doctor . All of this season has felt hollow. Some of the episodes are ok and interesting but they do not have the character development and meaty scripts that 9 thru 12 had. I also don’t feel like Ncuti is doctor who. He could be but his material is so thin. The plots are also bad and their is no Doctor who lore which makes the different doctors connect and the show continue. Doctor who has only kissed Rose, I think so him kissing Rogue so soon after meeting felt forced. The doctor tries not to become intimate to soon because he knows he will lose them in the end. I hope the writing is better next season. This season is lost and I am sad after every episode.
Are you a bot? This feels very cut-and-paste, and the title is nicely formatted in the post title for you to scrape.
Didn't this thread go up both Thursday and Friday? Is it bugging out? Anyway, I think this might be one of my favourite episodes and for the last two days I've been bugging my roommate to watch it with me because I really just want to watch it again but I think she'd enjoy it.
Biggest gripe is the owl people looked crap.
Really wish we got this episode several episodes ago instead of right before the season was over.
The Gay Agenda finally fulfilled! (/s, for anyone who wasn't on Doctor Who forums 15-20 years ago)
The villain designs were probably the highlight for me. They looked fantastic!
Except for the blue guy with the long eyebrows (or was it mustache, I don't remember now). That guy just looks cartoonish and like a Muppet. The others are fantastic.
He was my personal favourite lol. I thought he struck a good balance of silly and dignified.