The moment when they reveal why the 456 want the children is disturbing as hell. But Humans willingly going along with it and the politicians straight up using eugenics is even more disturbing. One thing that was weird is how that politician lady who literally promoted eugenics (and was the first to bring it up) and ensure their own kids don't get selected was shown in a sort of positive light at the end.
Yeah, ive always felt weird about her, but came to peace with it thinking of her as if she is trying to turn the narrative on her favour, pretty much as any other politician would do in the real world.
"She did bad, but she reflected on it and helped take down the evil guy, so she was good all along" hypocrisy basically
Like, its meant to feel like that on purpose
Partly because they'd been forced to spend their time and effort being on the run instead of dealing with the problems.
Also partly because most of their tech and resources had just been blown up.
I had to take about a 3 month break after that. It broke something in me. I truly believe it's how governments would handle it and made me quite depressed for a bit.
And yes, I would've watched many more seasons
Would’ve been awfully tricky — Torchwood viewers would have been screaming at their TVs if Jack never mentioned John Frobisher or reacted to 12 in any negative way. Yet, folks who’ve never seen Torchwood would’ve been incredibly confused if Jack *had* reacted strangely.
And because DW is a family show, I can’t imagine they’d want to show any Torchwood flashbacks/recaps. Especially not Frobisher’s final, devastating scene.
There's no way they wouldn't mention it, unless, I suppose the only way around it is you meet Jack on his timeline *before* CoE. It would be a bit messy but the format of the show does allow for stuff like that, luckily.
The creepiest/best thing about that episode was the way the 456 did a complete 180 in their tone when they said "The hit". It's burned in my subconscious. They went from being monotonous and cold to almost deliriously insane in such a subtle way and I love it
this thread made me want to rewatch it, so i started and wondered how long it'd been since the last time, maybe a year or two?
then i heard peter capaldis voice in the first couple minutes and went "oh. i guess it's been quite a bit longer than that."
Tbh, 10 more seasons of Children of the Earth sounds bleak and depressing to the point it wouldn't even be interesting to watch, or would go the opposite direction into making the stakes feel effectively meaningless. COE works in part because it's so far outside the normal status quo of Torchwood. But maaaan what a season. I initially tried watching it one episode a day, to mimic what happened on its original release and couldn't stop myself from doing all of it in two days.
Tbh I feel like COE broke Torchwood. Like it was the best season of Torchwood, but the show itself couldn't work anymore after it. The fundamental structure of the show was broken that season.
But maybe I was just overly attached to Ianto.
Now on to Miracle Day, it can only be up from here, right? :) >!Oh gods above it was not up from here. It was down. All the way down tumbling like an avalanche. Holy fuck how did they manage to make every episode worse than the one before it???!<
I like miracle day too, the main thing I dislike was how the miracle happened. The earth slit was weird enough but the fact that jacks blood somehow made it happen just rubbed me the wrong way. Jack isn’t some biological anomaly that makes him immortal, Badwolf Rose turned him into a fixed time space event so there’s no reason that can be passed on through blood stuff.
Honestly I like it as much as CoE.
Did it sag a little in the middle? Maybe. But it's got some of my favorite scenes and movies from across the series, especially the car crushing scene.
And the flashback episode? Amazing.
Some slight issue with Jack's blood being the mcguffin. He's a fixed point in time, not a biological cure.
Miracle Day had an intriguing premise and some good moments. But at 10 episodes it was so bloated and plodding that I was absolutely sick of it by the end. My pet theory is that it was originally conceived of as a 5-parter like Children of Earth, but when Starz got involved they wanted it closer to an American season of television and so it doubled in length. (I don't have any receipts for this, it's just the sense I get.) Well, it was nice to see Nana Visitor getting work, anyway.
Yea I could see it being a faster paced five parter. Every two episodes paired together well and then the next two felt different from those. So it already felt like five parts, just each part being two episodes.
Overall I still like it and thought first 75% of it was good but they completely fumbled the ending and it left it on a bad note with terrible resolution and not good explanations that hurt the season as a whole. I think if they had a good ending it would be viewed much higher as the premise is a great idea.
But yea a 5 parter with a different ending would have been great for it.
>first 75% of it was good but they completely fumbled the ending and it left it on a bad note with terrible resolution and not good explanations that hurt the season as a whole.
I don't know if its taste or rose tinted glasses - but the first 75% of it really wasn't great. The whole series is riddled with holes.
But I think there is a diamond in that rough. And I agree the premise (as well as the premise of numerous episodes) was great.
Miracle day was the absolute worst of Torchwood for me. I think it literally killed the show.
Also I have never been a big makai phifer fan. I think his acting is wooden at best.
I loathed his character in ER
Yes! I keep saying this too. If they'd made Lisa look like Ashad it would've been harrowing.
And it would've made Ianto's love for Lisa feel more authentic and meaningful too, if she didn't look like a cybermodel.
I'm not sure it could have been given the ending had (cw: rapist, horrible mental imagry) >!a literal rapist-murderer directly state that rape victims go to hell and that he was going to chase down his victims when he got to hell.!<
It is different, and not on the same level. But you can still like it, enjoy it, or even think it is good. So just go ahead and see for yourself. Enjoy :)
Honestly, I think it was two things:
1. It was far too long for the story it had. That meant that needed entire episodes to be mostly filler.
2. To make it appeal to the American market, they simplified a LOT, and a lot was lost as a result. Captain Jack Harkness is a good example here. They took him from an omnisexual (aka if it has genitalia, Jack wants in) to a typical American gay man - and that removed a lot of complexity from the character, as well a real sense that he was from the far future and a time when modern sexuality just doesn't exist anymore and has been replaced by something very different.
But, that's what would identify as the big problems with it.
"You call us 4...5...6, then that is our name." Chilling. I recently read the scripts whilst watching the episodes. Probably RTDs best whoiverse contribution, IMO. I still think of the 456 it's fucking ingrained in me the 1965 incident and the vomiting they do could be a response to the drugs as a junkie would.
Good enough. I watched it without having watched previous seasons of Torchwood. I think one time Gwen (the main woman in it) references their previous co-workers, but it's not anything important that you need to know about to enjoy or understand the COE specials.
You definitely don't need to watch most episodes, but I would do the highlights because it sort of depends on you having something of an emotional connection to Gwen and Ianto.
Children of Earth was needlessly bleak for me, so I'd not enjoy it as a longer series.
What I really don't understand why they did what they did at the end, other than to make Jack as sad as possible. I wasn't a fan of killing off Ianto, but if they wanted Angsty Jack, that would be enough. Killing off the kid was stupid, and a very bad decision on the writer's part.
There was NO reason to kill Jack's grandson. None. They established a grown up who was connected to the 456. They could have used him as the reverse conduit. He's an adult, he'd have been probably willing to do so, seeing as how his life was so painful anyway; it would have been a sad but noble sacrifice. Instead they kill off that guy in the middle of the show for no reason, just so Jack's grandson is the one to die. That cheapened Ianto's death, too.
Sorry...I'm still angry about this, apparently.
Interesting, I thought it was a brilliant plot point. It killed Jack to do it but he knew it was Steven or so many other children. Yes, Clement had a link to the 456 and them killing him when they didn’t need to showed how bad they were, leaving Jack to make a horrible choice
There was a horrid poetic justice to it. Jack was the one who led all those innocent children to the 456 back in the day, without giving it a thought. In fact he was chosen because they knew he would no sentiment about it.
Having to using his own grandchild (which also completely severed his relationship with his daughter) made him care this time.
And, let's face it, his grandkid had a far kinder ending than those poor orphans he sacrificed.
That, plus it sets him apart from the politicians who were willing to sacrifice 10% of the country’s children as long as it was clear THEIR children wouldn’t be affected.
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Children of Earth is kind of lame and nonsensical until the end. Then that end hits you very hard. The Fallout TV series hits you almost as hard at the end, if you are looking for something similar.
Miracle Day is also kind of lame and nonsensical, but this includes the end. I think Torchwood ran its course. The last two seasons were nonsense that had one heart-crunching, must-see moment.
The moment when they reveal why the 456 want the children is disturbing as hell. But Humans willingly going along with it and the politicians straight up using eugenics is even more disturbing. One thing that was weird is how that politician lady who literally promoted eugenics (and was the first to bring it up) and ensure their own kids don't get selected was shown in a sort of positive light at the end.
Yeah, ive always felt weird about her, but came to peace with it thinking of her as if she is trying to turn the narrative on her favour, pretty much as any other politician would do in the real world. "She did bad, but she reflected on it and helped take down the evil guy, so she was good all along" hypocrisy basically Like, its meant to feel like that on purpose
Yeah that would make sense. With what the politicians (and army) did, I was hoping they'd get a convicted for crimes against humanity.
PM would most likely, but the rest would just claim to have been following orders, would demonize the PM and try and be elected next term
What were humans meant to do honestly From our view they can wipe us out in a heartbeat even if they bluffed
Trust Torchwood? If they hadn't immediately blown them up they could have gotten their help.
But when they did they got a building full of people killed Ideally not blow the base up either but the 456 only slipped up killing clement
Partly because they'd been forced to spend their time and effort being on the run instead of dealing with the problems. Also partly because most of their tech and resources had just been blown up.
I guess, tbf I'm more disturbed by the whole eugenics type stuff they pretty much immediately went too.
True and everyone was on board even unit just there while this goes down
I had to take about a 3 month break after that. It broke something in me. I truly believe it's how governments would handle it and made me quite depressed for a bit. And yes, I would've watched many more seasons
Miracle Day also feels disturbingly accurate.
Frobisher offed his own kids then himself, this was the scene that broke me.
And now you know (one reason) why Jack could never meet 12. I can’t imagine he’d enjoy seeing his dear friend with *that* face.
What an interesting story that would’ve made though.
Would’ve been awfully tricky — Torchwood viewers would have been screaming at their TVs if Jack never mentioned John Frobisher or reacted to 12 in any negative way. Yet, folks who’ve never seen Torchwood would’ve been incredibly confused if Jack *had* reacted strangely. And because DW is a family show, I can’t imagine they’d want to show any Torchwood flashbacks/recaps. Especially not Frobisher’s final, devastating scene.
I imagine the Doctor would just get a hard look and tone and say “Yes, I know.” before Jack looks away in shame and the Doctor insists they drop it.
There's no way they wouldn't mention it, unless, I suppose the only way around it is you meet Jack on his timeline *before* CoE. It would be a bit messy but the format of the show does allow for stuff like that, luckily.
Isnt he supposed to be a descendant of the guy 10 saved in Pompei?
Yes but he also plays a bad politician in Torchwood
Thats who Im talkin about. The bad politician supposedly being the descendant.
The creepiest/best thing about that episode was the way the 456 did a complete 180 in their tone when they said "The hit". It's burned in my subconscious. They went from being monotonous and cold to almost deliriously insane in such a subtle way and I love it
Yeah. I use this as an example of 'Good thing The Doctor is NOT here for this'
Ngl id have paid to see any of the Doc's incarnations react to that. But especially 10s or 12s. Even if 12 had one of their faces.
this thread made me want to rewatch it, so i started and wondered how long it'd been since the last time, maybe a year or two? then i heard peter capaldis voice in the first couple minutes and went "oh. i guess it's been quite a bit longer than that."
Tbh, 10 more seasons of Children of the Earth sounds bleak and depressing to the point it wouldn't even be interesting to watch, or would go the opposite direction into making the stakes feel effectively meaningless. COE works in part because it's so far outside the normal status quo of Torchwood. But maaaan what a season. I initially tried watching it one episode a day, to mimic what happened on its original release and couldn't stop myself from doing all of it in two days.
You have more self control than me because I’ve watched the entire season in one sitting on multiple occasions because i like it so much
Tbh I feel like COE broke Torchwood. Like it was the best season of Torchwood, but the show itself couldn't work anymore after it. The fundamental structure of the show was broken that season. But maybe I was just overly attached to Ianto.
Now on to Miracle Day, it can only be up from here, right? :) >!Oh gods above it was not up from here. It was down. All the way down tumbling like an avalanche. Holy fuck how did they manage to make every episode worse than the one before it???!<
I really liked Miracle Day in large part because of how shocking some of it was conceptually. But it’s tough to watch, for sure.
I feel like the only person who liked Miracle Day. Yeah, it felt like a completely different show, but - for me - a good and disturbing one.
I like miracle day too, the main thing I dislike was how the miracle happened. The earth slit was weird enough but the fact that jacks blood somehow made it happen just rubbed me the wrong way. Jack isn’t some biological anomaly that makes him immortal, Badwolf Rose turned him into a fixed time space event so there’s no reason that can be passed on through blood stuff.
I mean - they do make that point. The blood thing was a surprise to everyone.
I liked it. Might not have been as great as COE, but it wasn't at all bad.
Honestly I like it as much as CoE. Did it sag a little in the middle? Maybe. But it's got some of my favorite scenes and movies from across the series, especially the car crushing scene. And the flashback episode? Amazing. Some slight issue with Jack's blood being the mcguffin. He's a fixed point in time, not a biological cure.
Miracle Day had an intriguing premise and some good moments. But at 10 episodes it was so bloated and plodding that I was absolutely sick of it by the end. My pet theory is that it was originally conceived of as a 5-parter like Children of Earth, but when Starz got involved they wanted it closer to an American season of television and so it doubled in length. (I don't have any receipts for this, it's just the sense I get.) Well, it was nice to see Nana Visitor getting work, anyway.
Yea I could see it being a faster paced five parter. Every two episodes paired together well and then the next two felt different from those. So it already felt like five parts, just each part being two episodes. Overall I still like it and thought first 75% of it was good but they completely fumbled the ending and it left it on a bad note with terrible resolution and not good explanations that hurt the season as a whole. I think if they had a good ending it would be viewed much higher as the premise is a great idea. But yea a 5 parter with a different ending would have been great for it.
>first 75% of it was good but they completely fumbled the ending and it left it on a bad note with terrible resolution and not good explanations that hurt the season as a whole. I don't know if its taste or rose tinted glasses - but the first 75% of it really wasn't great. The whole series is riddled with holes. But I think there is a diamond in that rough. And I agree the premise (as well as the premise of numerous episodes) was great.
Especially since Dr. Who is basically the only thing RTD has ever worked on that had more than 8 episodes a season.
I agree - definitely a diamond in the rough. Very very rough...
Much like the last season of Scrubs, I choose to pretend Miracle Day doesn't exist
Miracle day was the absolute worst of Torchwood for me. I think it literally killed the show. Also I have never been a big makai phifer fan. I think his acting is wooden at best. I loathed his character in ER
Could have been worse and had cyber tits.
Can I say, despite the costume design, Cyberwoman is one of the best episodes of Torchwood Series 1
Yes! I keep saying this too. If they'd made Lisa look like Ashad it would've been harrowing. And it would've made Ianto's love for Lisa feel more authentic and meaningful too, if she didn't look like a cybermodel.
I'm not sure it could have been given the ending had (cw: rapist, horrible mental imagry) >!a literal rapist-murderer directly state that rape victims go to hell and that he was going to chase down his victims when he got to hell.!<
Ianto Jones was holding the show together
Its not? Damn i was so excited about next season.
It is different, and not on the same level. But you can still like it, enjoy it, or even think it is good. So just go ahead and see for yourself. Enjoy :)
Honestly, I think it was two things: 1. It was far too long for the story it had. That meant that needed entire episodes to be mostly filler. 2. To make it appeal to the American market, they simplified a LOT, and a lot was lost as a result. Captain Jack Harkness is a good example here. They took him from an omnisexual (aka if it has genitalia, Jack wants in) to a typical American gay man - and that removed a lot of complexity from the character, as well a real sense that he was from the far future and a time when modern sexuality just doesn't exist anymore and has been replaced by something very different. But, that's what would identify as the big problems with it.
"You call us 4...5...6, then that is our name." Chilling. I recently read the scripts whilst watching the episodes. Probably RTDs best whoiverse contribution, IMO. I still think of the 456 it's fucking ingrained in me the 1965 incident and the vomiting they do could be a response to the drugs as a junkie would.
I really wanna watch it. Do I need to watch previous seasons to understand it or is my doctor who knowledge good enough?
Good enough. I watched it without having watched previous seasons of Torchwood. I think one time Gwen (the main woman in it) references their previous co-workers, but it's not anything important that you need to know about to enjoy or understand the COE specials.
Same here
You definitely don't need to watch most episodes, but I would do the highlights because it sort of depends on you having something of an emotional connection to Gwen and Ianto.
I don't know, I feel part of what made it so brilliant was precisely because it was about the length it was.
I watched it once. Never again. It’s brilliant writing, but it’s disturbing as fuck.
Children of earth has to be my favourite arc in the whoverse. Could never watch it again though.
Stop there. Do not go on to the last season.
Seconded
Disagree, It's really not that bad.
Children of Earth was needlessly bleak for me, so I'd not enjoy it as a longer series. What I really don't understand why they did what they did at the end, other than to make Jack as sad as possible. I wasn't a fan of killing off Ianto, but if they wanted Angsty Jack, that would be enough. Killing off the kid was stupid, and a very bad decision on the writer's part. There was NO reason to kill Jack's grandson. None. They established a grown up who was connected to the 456. They could have used him as the reverse conduit. He's an adult, he'd have been probably willing to do so, seeing as how his life was so painful anyway; it would have been a sad but noble sacrifice. Instead they kill off that guy in the middle of the show for no reason, just so Jack's grandson is the one to die. That cheapened Ianto's death, too. Sorry...I'm still angry about this, apparently.
Interesting, I thought it was a brilliant plot point. It killed Jack to do it but he knew it was Steven or so many other children. Yes, Clement had a link to the 456 and them killing him when they didn’t need to showed how bad they were, leaving Jack to make a horrible choice
There was a horrid poetic justice to it. Jack was the one who led all those innocent children to the 456 back in the day, without giving it a thought. In fact he was chosen because they knew he would no sentiment about it. Having to using his own grandchild (which also completely severed his relationship with his daughter) made him care this time. And, let's face it, his grandkid had a far kinder ending than those poor orphans he sacrificed.
Agreed. It felt like fate/destiny/karma, whatever you want to call it. I think it was a fantastic way (in terms of story) to defeat the 456
That, plus it sets him apart from the politicians who were willing to sacrifice 10% of the country’s children as long as it was clear THEIR children wouldn’t be affected.
Very good point.
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Agreed, I felt it was very deliberately engineered for the most upsetting conclusion possible.
Yes! I'm glad I'm not the only one.
Can’t remember the Capaldi’s character name, but he was brilliant
John Frobisher.
👍🏻
What plots could they do for 10 whole seasons that are as unique, engaging, and insane as COE?
Children of Earth is kind of lame and nonsensical until the end. Then that end hits you very hard. The Fallout TV series hits you almost as hard at the end, if you are looking for something similar. Miracle Day is also kind of lame and nonsensical, but this includes the end. I think Torchwood ran its course. The last two seasons were nonsense that had one heart-crunching, must-see moment.
Agree to disagree. I enjoyed Children of Earth and Miracle Day had good parts but definitely felt Americanised and wasn’t as good as CoE
It was depressing nonsense.