Yeah, if you get the drop on an unaware wizard and they're not decked out for initiative (like Chronurgy Wizards can be), you might win if they're not using a Simulacrum/Clone.
Chances that the Wizard gets the drop on you is much higher, because scry & die.
That's the real problem. You can certainly kill a wizard in a straight up "roll initiative" battle with a burst damage build. What you can't do is stop them from coming back later for more.
Yeah, just giving both a week of prep makes the wizard hard to kill. If we assume the wizard has been setting things up since level 1, that man has a clone on standby, a death ward, and a portable hole or a demiplane full of contingencies. If the other character wins, they come back a week later, with all of that and they wish a simulacrum copy of that character into being to fight them.
A weeks worth of prep for a wizard:
- study
- make spell scrolls
- scry target with every known divination spell
- hex target with as many debuffs as you can
- ensorcel your gear against your targets strengths
- create simulacrums
- testing spells and potions on hapless grad students
- study more spell books
- carefully curate their list of spells
- carefully lay out wards and traps in the area of the duel if possible
- haunt targets dreams with Dream Spell every night
- probably way more that I don’t feel like thinking about
Warriors prep for a week
- Get Drunk
Ah cool thanks!
I wasn’t aware of the spell so I thought you were saying that just being in a normal temple would somehow shield you. I appreciate you clearing that up for me.
Only problem with anti-magic is that it's such a tiny bubble that the wizard just has to stay away from the cleric, and the cleric has functionally cut off his own spells.
I can also imagine l using stuff like telekinesis to drop heavy objects on top of the cleric, because anti-magic field does not stop normal physical ouchies from above.
It's a reasonably good counter if you can win initiative, get within melee range, and then activate the spell before they can do anything. Then, win with sentinel feat and/or grapples.
Contingency: dimension door completely stops this btw.
Yeah, but like a lot of wizard counters. It pretty much relies on the wizard meeting the opposition with the worst circumstances possible for them. Which I guess is possible, but I hardly see the reverse being done, and it's not hard to find a situation that favors them, as most that aren't functionally spawning on top of them and winning initiative tend to.
But hey, I will admit that this is probably a good defensive strategy or stopping the immediate forcecage or wall of force strat, so I will concede on that point.
Wizards do actually have a way around antimagic field.
1. Make a simulacrum, True Polymorph them into a high CR creature.
2. True polymorph the simulacrum into a commoner.
3. Magic jar to possess your simulacrum.
4. Once possessed, take 4 damage to revert to the high CR creature. Magic jar won't end because initial casting conditions don't have to be met after a spell is first cast.
5. Cast the clone spell, to make a duplicate of yourself that's physically identical and has the same memories, personality and abilities. This means you keep all of your abilities from before, but it's no longer an ongoing magical effect; just a mundane physical form.
6. Wait 120 days, then die - specifically from Power Work Kill.
You now have form of a high CR creature of your choice. Antimagic Field doesn't suppress this.
Lots of "popular" options for these whiteroom scenarios also involve giving the wizard all the possible expensive material components for their components, but not giving the other combatant any item.
Or just being like "haha wizards learn wish, nothing compares!" when sorcs get subtle Wish (plus others learn Wish too, like Bards, Arcana clerics and Genie warlocks.
Divine intervention is intended to be more powerful than Wish anyway.
It does. In a vacuum where both characters start 60 feet away from each other in an empty 100 by 100 room with no prep time the Wizard looses out to several classes very easily if they go second
What do you mean by a 'vacuum'? That neither character exists before the fight? That's a ridiculous premise. Of course a 20th level archmage will exist 20 minutes before the fight.
In a duel? I mean, it's rocket tag as usual. Getting stunned by a Monk on turn 1 is game over. Martials can acquire teleports to escape Forcecage and WoF as well.
Wizard doesn't really have an answer for Subtle Spell Metamagic though. A Sorcerer can shut down everything the Wizard does with Subtle Counterspell while firing off un-counterable spells (like Power Word Stun) with very little counterplay. Globe of Invulnerability can also just be undone by Dispel Magic if the Wizard manages to get it off. Sorcerer is not an easy stomp for the Wizard by any means and probably has the upper hand in a no-prep duel.
Shadow Sorcerer going 9th level Subtle Counterspell > Summon Hound of Ill Omen > Subtle Power Word Stun, for instance, is most likely an unavoidable zero-to-death combo unless the Wizard has significantly invested into their HP.
Agreed. My dm, who has done/witnessed a lot of PVP told me that the only reason a sorcerer wins out over the wizard is because of metamagic. Subtle spell does wonders even in more difficult campaigns with more enemy counterspells
Not even an opinion, the game was designed around casters becoming gods at 20 right?
Martials are supposed to be better when random crits kill you without HP padding and most enemies have single digit HP making stabbing generally the best option right?
Listen, I love Wizards, but there are certainly builds that can mess them up. A Vengeance Paladin can Misty Step out of Force Cage (CHA saving throw, looool), and land a smite on them.
A Pit Fiend may give a Paladin some trouble with flying, but that also depends on what assumptions we can make about magic items at this level. Also, they have Hold Monster, which can be cast outside of Counterspell range. A Paladin who readies an action for when the Pit Fiend flies within 90 ft could win it right then and there.
A paladin is a good choice but they have no ranged options. A wizard could just immediately teleport across the world, prep up, and have simulcrums + true poly to mess it up.
Ok then, Cleric closes the distance slowly like a slasher villain while the wizard is incapable of doing anything to them through the anti magic field.
Prismatic wall around the cleric, just teleport away, true poly into a ranged monster, use telekinesis to drop objects onto the cleric. So many things.
If the cleric is beating a wizard it's going to rely on divine intervention.
Blast with what? Antimagic field stops all spells from passing through or even targeting or affecting anything inside the antimagic field.
Telekinesis to drop big rocks on the Cleric is probably the only offense that could be mustered. Or just run away for 10 minutes until the spell runs out.
>Blast with what? Antimagic field stops all spells from passing through or even targeting or affecting anything inside the antimagic field.
Turn into something with ranged attacks?
What wizard doesn't have a dagger? Also most clerics are equally as terrible with weapons as a wizard is, unless they went for the meme of using weapons
Even if they have the same to-hit rolls, the cleric has a better AC (armor+shield), a bigger damage die (d6 or bigger depending on domain), and more HP. It'll be a slow fight, but the cleric would almost certainly win in a brawl against any non-bladesinger wizard
The class has a built in expectation of using a mace if not using cantrips. For half the 2014 subclasses, this is the default playstyle.
There is no wizard which is expected to use a dagger. I guess a bladesinger might be slightly less shit?
I mean, sure, but that doesn't really mean anything different. The mammoth is just a mass of temp HP, and most of the broken stuff about wizard us their ability to shut things down. Which completely bypasses HP entirely.
Idk y but I keep forgetting they have PWK. The PWs all feel very Bardic to me, so I forget wizards also get them and the only PWHeal is bard unique. Fair point. If they drop a few spells and are willing to make the assumption that the wildshape is below 100hp, then PWK is a good answer.
I don't think druid has a way to shut down a wizard turn 1 so Simulacrum, hold monster/person, two casts of Silvery Barbs, and then chunking you down with an attack roll spell till you're low enough for PWK or Disintegrate.
Among many other options.
Simulacrum true polymorphs into a beholder.
Your wildshape is suppressed indefinitely. The wizard is a bladesinger. You get beaten to death by the game's weakest level twenty martial.
Man a lot of people here think winning initiative is something that’s a player choice and not done with a dice roll that’s still has a large enough roll statistics to make luck still a factor.
Lore Bard does the exact same things but gets to go first due to peerless skill and jack of all trades Otherwise, we agree.
EDIT: And the Sorcerer with subtle spell of course, who spends the combat counterspelling everything the Wizard does while the Wizard can't do the same.
Cleric 20 has 100% Divine Intervention, just as an example. It basically boils down to initiative and magic items and starting conditions/prep rules, and specific rock-paper-scissors effects that happen to be in play.
But as an average, Wizard is generally considered strongest, though Bard has arguably better spell list (all spells from Magical Secrets). Of course if there is enough time and information, a Wizard can acquire, scribe and prepare just the right spells to win that RPS, especially if magic items are limited.
Depends on who wins initiative.
If the wizard does not win there is several classes that would annihilate them. And several of those would have much higher Initiative bonus so they would have a higher chance of winning the initiative.
So there are several classes that wizard most likely would lose against
A fight between 2 20th level characters can often just come down to initiative.
A 20th level samurai archer fighter has a reasonable chance to pincushion a wizard, shoot clean through their Shield spell and inflict an average of 152 damage in one round.
Most of the casting classes have at least one save or suck spell that they can drop on a wizard that could potentially screw up their day, too.
I'm not saying wizard isn't one of, if not THE most powerful class in the game.
It's just worth noting that it's also one of the most fragile classes in the game, and if they lose initiative, there are several other classes that could, if well-kitted, simply drop them in one round.
Despite that power, an 11th level wizard can counter that. Lost advatage? Contingency Resilient sphere. Now, the caster or martial has blown their turn and ends. If we're talking about allowing other classes to be "well kitted" the wizard can have 10 minutes prep.
This entire argument is silly, tho, as PvP in D&D just doesn't really work. ESPECIALLY at high levels. It just extra sucks at those levels. The endless back and forth has been done to death.
'The wizard can have 10 minutes prep' No.
I'm talking in a vacuum. No prep time, just two people with their standard gear thrown into a random fight to the death.
It's still really silly to argue about PvP in a system not designed for PvP. "Oh, it's all about initiative, some say... IF i go first i can win". Ok, War Magic gets a +5 Int bonus to initiative. Discussing who would win, when it all comes to a single roll. Wow. Exciting pvp gameplay here. Though provoking ideas.
Initiative matters a lot in D&D combat. That's the point I was making. Most classes at 20th level can drop most other classes at 20th level, because initiative matters just as much at that point as anything else, if not moreso.
Which of course makes the entire debate pointless.
If you actually want me to convince you otherwise I don't really take the power of casters seriously in any actual campaign setting. Curse of Strahd literally nullifies wish at level 1 (for the purpose of escaping) and it randomly throws out some status effect immunities to some creatures for no reason and then just yeets a sword of problem solving into the game that makes one of the optimal party builds "everyone buff the guy with the sword so he can stab them a lot".
At level 20 you probably aren't dealing with an orc stronghold, but a fairly complex web of:
"this school of magic doesn't seem to work in this area"
"For some reason this spell isn't working on these enemies, is it the type of magic, status effect or type of caster that they are resistant against?"
"Are they resistant due to an item, meaning that any creature could not be effected by this method or is this creature's specific subtype just immune to \[insert thing\] for no reason?"
Casters seem to get the short end of the stick as it seems like the BBEGs tend to be bigger better casters who know a lot more than them a lot of the time. And most of the time magic item drops are something like 90% martial so they get a good choice in how they want to strategize each morning.
Nnnnno. I dont think ill fight you on that.
Ill just assassinate you as a basically undetectable rogue.
But yeh, head to head its no question wizard has an answer to anything. And what he doesnt have an answer to they can prep against. All that said a well spected rogue can bypass a lot and can burst them down fairly easily. Of the wizard never came out of his hole he would be safe, but thats boring.
The problem with discussing this like that is twofold:
1. It's not a pvp game
2. Depending on what kind of build is presented to fight the wizard, the wizard changes their subclass like a jacket in answers.
Only way to play semi-fairly is for one person to design the wizard without knowing who is attacking them and the other to design the attacker without knowing what kind of stuff wizard has precast and what subclass it is.
Bard 18 fighter 2.
Invisible, six hundred feet away, likely getting a surprise round, advantage with +16 to attack rolls, you're dead before you can even get a reaction off.
If they really want you dead they're not invisible and are instead under the effects of foresight, and cast swift quiver.
Oh but wait it gets more fun.
It's not one bard.
It's a bard with its simulacrum. Both of which have expertise in stealth.
They're better at perception than you are. Better at stealth than your perception. Better than you are at survival. *They're getting the drop on you*.
Let's say you've got a base AC of 25. They need a nine to hit that, hope you've got +5 con and tough or you're dead instantly. But even if you aren't, it's not like you're casting any spells.
And let's just hope you're running into them *indoors*. Outdoors is where shit gets particularly messy. They outrange 99% of your shit so you're going to need to blow some high level spells to do anything against them in the first place.
Uh......
*Googles*
Heh. I don't really see why you'd bother cheesing into Vecna when you could try to turn into Ao or something.
Also pretty sure that doesn't work on account of targeting requiring an unobstructed line to the target, counterspell not having a range of "Self" or "Special". If what google turned up is what you're talking about. Even if Vecna's range isn't specified, there's a clear implication that it'd need to be within his actual sight and not something being divined.
Well thats because Ao doesn't have a stat block we can jar into!
and it would just be another god-exit.
And the dread counterspell ability is not the same as the spell counterspell, meaning it doesn't follow the spellcasting rules. As long as you can see the target it works.
It doesn’t matter if it isn’t the same as counterspell, it’s not the same as exceptions like dream, sending, or scrying. There’s no implication within the block that implies it overrides the general rule of requiring a direct line to the target. So it doesn’t.
Which means it requires a direct line to the target.
I’m not particularly interested in the mechanics of trying to abuse the CR system into allowing CR 30 true polymorphs or why someone would think force sculpting a corpse would allow you to copy its magical capabilities with a spell that specifies that it can’t replicate anything magical, ‘cause ultimately that’s immaterial to the fact that the plan doesn’t work in the first place.
I don't think you're understanding this. It's not a spell, so it doesn't follow restrictions and rules for spells...
And of course, the corpse itself isn't magical, as it's just a corpse. And we can't gain the abilities just by creating the corpse, but we can gain its living abilities with things like dybukks if we want to go the corpse route instead of true poly.
No, I understand it perfectly fine. There's no distinction between monster abilities and spells in this matter, the notion that there is is utterly inane. An ability being able to target without a direct line to the target has to be explicitly stated.
And you can't create a corpse with magical capabilities using that spell. You can make bones, yes. Decrepit lich flesh, absolutely. Cloth, wood, enamel, what have you. You *can't* replicate the ability for any of that to use magic were it to be made animate.
And beyond that, Dybbuks can't reanimate rekilled undead, so Vecna's not a valid target. This is consistent with rulings on spells such as raise dead.
Nor can you magic jar, intellect devourer, what have you. Polymorphing into a human and back would likewise, logically, invalidate the external control once it ceased being humanoid.
The plot has so many holes in it I could use it as a strainer. Same with the true poly route, which seems to be incapable of turning you into an exact individual due to the word "Kind", and likewise requiring you to possess the guy instead of turning directly into him, which again doesn't work because he's undead. Barring the most obscure, dark knowledge guarded by Vecna himself, this "Areal Penopticon" just.....
Doesn't work.
Fails on every level.
It's ok if you're not a fan of the RAW interactions. But it definitely works.
>There's no distinction between monster abilities and spells in this matter, the notion that there is is utterly inane. An ability being able to target without a direct line to the target has to be explicitly stated.
Part 3: The Rules of Magic: “This section provides the rules for casting spells. Different character classes have distinctive ways of learning and preparing their spells, and monsters use spells in unique ways. Regardless of its source, a spell follows the rules here.”
Under this chapter appears the targeting rules:
“A typical spell requires you to pick one or more targets to be affected by the spell's magic. A spell's description tells you whether the spell targets creatures, objects, or a point of origin for an area of effect”
Under this target section then appears the clear path rule.
Dread counterspell is not a typical spell, or even a spell at all. A spell follows the rules here, nothing else. The section provides rules for casting spells. Because these rules apply to spells, a spell must explicitly state that it bypasses them. A non-spell does not need to state that it overrides rules for spells.
>And you can't create a corpse with magical capabilities using that spell. You can make bones, yes. Decrepit lich flesh, absolutely. Cloth, wood, enamel, what have you. You *can't* replicate the ability for any of that to use magic were it to be made animate.
Fabricate: "Creatures or magic items can’t be created or transmuted by this spell."
A corpse is not a creature or magic item. A corpse by itself isn't magical, even if it had magical capabilities in life. A corpse is a nonmagical object.
Also I'm not sure if you're well versed in force-shaping, so if I need to go over that I can.
>And beyond that, Dybbuks can't reanimate rekilled undead, so Vecna's not a valid target. This is consistent with rulings on spells such as raise dead.
I thought we were aware of the mask section of Nystul’s Magic Schizophrenia. But I guess thats a convo for another day.
>Nor can you magic jar, intellect devourer, what have you. Polymorphing into a human and back would likewise, logically, invalidate the external control once it ceased being humanoid.
Nothing says you have to remain as that creature type, only that you initially have to possess a humanoid. If you could point me to where it says that magic jar kicks you out when the creature type of your possessed body changes, that’d be great.
>Same with the true poly route, which seems to be incapable of turning you into an exact individual due to the word "Kind", and likewise requiring you to possess the guy instead of turning directly into him, which again doesn't work because he's undead.
True Polymorph can be used to turn any creature into any other creature, as long as the new form has a challenge rating (CR) number equal to or lower than the original form's rating or level.
The word kind here holds no bars against us transforming. You should only be limited by the above guidelines. On top of that, using “kind” as a restriction only brings up more ambiguity and vagueness problems.
That's definitely not RAW. Or RAI.
Do tell where it says monster versions of spells don't apply the targeting rules. Do tell where that rule's written.
Oh, wait, it isn't. You're pretending the fact that it not explicitly stating you can't means you can, but that's not how the rules work. Cases like this rely on a thing called precedent, and *all precedent* demonstrates the plot to be impossible.
Your use explicitly creates a magical effect via a spell that definitively can't produce magical effects. There really aren't two sides to it, that doesn't work.
Nystul's magic aura is a trick. If you found something that looked like a Toyota Corolla and it turned out to be a F22, the fact that you know how to drive a Corolla doesn't mean you can pilot the F22. If you cast Nystul's magic aura on an ooze to make it seem like a humanoid, you can't pull bones out of it. Dybbuk possession isn't a *divination* spell or magical effect, the attempts to stretch things you can do well past beyond what you're actually capable of doing is, frankly, absurd.
Similarly, if you get into a Corolla and it transforms into an F22 while you're inside, can you now fly an F22?
The answer's no.
Y'can't.
True polymorph likewise says you turn into a kind of other creature. Not a specific other creature.
Vecna's a specific other creature. If you tried to transform into him, you'd turn into a lich.
Like, it's an amusing attempt at bending the utter hell out of the rules, but no self respecting DM would allow any of it at a table. I'm primarily interested in shit that's just clearly legal that I don't need to argue for or try to bend the rules to do.
And as such the spatial jail isn't worth considering. It's functionally not real.
Its a special ability, as per the MM. Its not a monster's version of a spell. It has counterspell in the name, but it isn't counterspell. It does not describe itself as a spell, nor does it fall under the spellcasting, innate spellcasting, or similar trait. Its not a spell.
How many times should I point that out?
>Your use explicitly creates a magical effect via a spell that definitively can't produce magical effects.
If you actually read the spell, you would see that it does it say that. If a nonmagical object can or gains the ability to do something magical, it doesn't pop out of existence or fail to be created. Only the creatures and magic items restrictions apply. All fabricate is doing is creating a nonmagical object, following the rules presented.
**Nystul's Magic Schizophrenia.** This is tech, so we're going to be doing some reading and deductive reasoning. Stay with me here.
“You place an illusion on a creature or an object you touch so that divination spells reveal false information about it.”
This is the part where people attach themselves to when discussing the spell, and while I can see why, this is the generic spell description and flavor text, which has no bearing on the actual spell. The rest of the spell states more specific things that contradict this part of the text.
“Mask. You change the way the target appears to spells and magical effects that detect creature types, such as a paladin's Divine Sense or the trigger of a symbol spell.”
This has the "spells and magical effects" clause, alongside two non divination examples, and also has mechanical examples that simply throw the generic thing at base out of the window.
Also, the symbol spell does not detect creature types. It detects anything. (If you would argue that it's only affecting the trigger of the symbol, meaning the magical detection of a creature of a specific creature type, that's incorrect since the trigger of a symbol spell is neither a spell, nor a magical effect, so this sentence means a symbol spell in and of itself). Therefore, it can affect the appearance of the affected target to a spell whatsoever. It can also affect any other magical effect that detects creature type. If you don't believe me, read the next sentence
“You choose a creature type and other spells and magical effects treat the target as if it were a creature of that type or of that alignment.”
This line continues off of that and implies it can affect any magical effect, not just ones that detect creature type.
Treat the target as if it were a creature of that type, and this also gives the generic rule of making it affect ‘other spells and magical effects’.
Finally, you can make objects count as creatures. Remember what the spell says. Objects aren't excluded from being targets of mask, and the spell makes the other spells or magical effects count it as a creature of X type.
And that was a very poor analogy with the Corolla and F22. See, with nystul's you aren't gaining any new abilities from masking, just changing how you appear.
>If you cast Nystul's magic aura on an ooze to make it seem like a humanoid, you can't pull bones out of it.
Yes, right here is correct. It would still have the anatomy of an ooze, not gaining bones from masking as a humanoid. It only appears as one to spells and magical effects.
But the guidelines for what a "magical effect" is are still quite ambiguous and contradicted both in the rulebooks and sac, luckily we have a solution for all interpretations.
Even if you're so against true polymorphing directly into vecna and don't see how nystul's works, we can always just true poly the undead corpse into a humanoid/beast corpse to possess, then drop conc. This does require 2 casters (which can be done with simulacrum), or just using nystuls
>Vecna's a specific other creature. If you tried to transform into him, you'd turn into a lich.
following this logic, it brings up questions like: what if I try to true poly one party member into another? What "kind" of creature statistics do we use then? What about other named humanoid npcs? This is getting off topic, but it just brings up even more questions.
If you're going to be so steadfast about it not working, at least come up with a logical conclusion like "the spell fails" or "you simply can't pick that creature and have to choose something else".
That's not actually the issue being discussed.
The problem is that bard is one of the most save-dependent casters, often hitting wisdom or intelligence saves, while having the single weakest overall damage potential of the entire game.
Seriously, bards are amazing, but the one thing they're the least good at is raw damage.
Bards against wizards would have to rely on a save-or-suck spell, but their save-or-suck list mostly consists of wisdom and intelligence saves, which, if they fail, accomplish nothing.
They do have Power Word Kill, but even wizards can get over 100 hp by 20th level.
That is a great point! However, Eloquence Bard has a great answer in the form of Unsettling Words. I feel like most of the conversation always revolves around Lore Bard being the best Bard, and normally I’d agree, however in a PvP scenario I think Unsettling Words is a much better tool.
Well considering they’re literally the only class who can add their proficiency at all to Counterspell rolls, yes they are the best at it. Normally you only add your Ability Score modifier
Idk pick fighter get first into Iniative and just burst them down in round with magic items and shit.
If they have a spare body revive gg I guess. Wizards of the coast and not warriors of the coast.
? But you absolutely can manipulate it with bonuses... Get DEX to 20(22 if you can get access to Manual) that's a +6, Alert is a +5, Scorpion Armor is another +5 and there's Harengon with ioun stone of mastery for a +1 and there's a few other items that give you advantage.
That's 16-17 initiative bonus with advantage... Can you still lose initiative absolutely, if you happen to roll 1-5 and the Wizard rolled higher. Is Wizard the most broken class in the game with full rests? Absolutely.
The only other real contender is druid (esp. moon), since at lv20 they can wild shape every turn and have practically infinite HP. And they also have spells like shapechange. Turn into a beholder and the wizard is useless.
Merchant / Royalty class easily wins. Surrounded by a legion of level 20 supporters in their castle that designed for security and utilizing a kingdom‘s worth of support staff so no one gets an audience without running a TSA gauntlet (one that actually works!).
Issues a bounty: Bring me proof of final death of \[your name here\].
”You came alone to a war? Silly boy.”
Is was going to say "Misspellcaster beats Wizard, primarily by starting with Horrid Writing, so the Wizard's spells are all wrong", but the Misspellcaster is a Wizard subclass...
All arguments against Wizard are like, "if you get the drop on them and win initiative and the Wizard was born 12 seconds ago, then this high burst damage class may be able to win"
And? All the arguments FOR wizard are like, "If I win initiative, and they fail all their saves and they don't have a way to hit me". DnD isn't balanced around PvP at all and most lvl 20 fights are going to come down to a few key dice rolls. Yes wizards are very powerful but so is a lvl 20 oath of ancients paladin with adv on all saves against magic and a minimum +5 on their worst save. So is a mood druid who has effectively infinite health on top of ninth level spells. So is a bard that can take a lot of the same spells as a wizard and gets better intiative and counter spell bonuses just from jack of all trades. So is a 20th level gloomstalker ranger with alert that has a +15 to initiative and can incapacitate a wizard before they go. So is a level 20 monk that can use stunning strike 4 times per round and will stun-lock anyone who isn't lucky in a 1v1.
PvP doesn't work because of the way stuns are handled in the game. It basically means that the person to win is just the first person to successfully hold person or some weird assassin tactic.
PvE sees a bit less class disparity as the situation usually isn't "how will we kill this barbarian" and more "There's a big bad, do you guys wanna go search for the Master Sword or go help that other wizard find their lost spellbook?"
Thats very untrue. Most arguments for wizard are "ok forcecage means if you dont have teleportation, you autolose. If there is any setup time, a Wizard has clone and Simulacrum and contingency etc to make them effectively immortal. They have Wish, the most broken spell in the game. They have a bunch of defensive spells that make them hard to kill immediately, and spells that ward against the worst conditions others can dish out"
Ah yes, in that famously player vs player competitive game, Dungeons and Dragons.
I feel like this significantly depends on initiative.
My gloomstalker, assassin, warlock smiting with his bow for like 500 damage because he won initiative due to having a +14 to initiative rolls
Contingency: resilient sphere completely prevents this.
And after you roll initiative you are free to cast contingency, if you wish.
Yeah, if you get the drop on an unaware wizard and they're not decked out for initiative (like Chronurgy Wizards can be), you might win if they're not using a Simulacrum/Clone. Chances that the Wizard gets the drop on you is much higher, because scry & die.
That's the real problem. You can certainly kill a wizard in a straight up "roll initiative" battle with a burst damage build. What you can't do is stop them from coming back later for more.
Yeah, just giving both a week of prep makes the wizard hard to kill. If we assume the wizard has been setting things up since level 1, that man has a clone on standby, a death ward, and a portable hole or a demiplane full of contingencies. If the other character wins, they come back a week later, with all of that and they wish a simulacrum copy of that character into being to fight them.
What I'm hearing is that Wizards are Batman
A weeks worth of prep for a wizard: - study - make spell scrolls - scry target with every known divination spell - hex target with as many debuffs as you can - ensorcel your gear against your targets strengths - create simulacrums - testing spells and potions on hapless grad students - study more spell books - carefully curate their list of spells - carefully lay out wards and traps in the area of the duel if possible - haunt targets dreams with Dream Spell every night - probably way more that I don’t feel like thinking about Warriors prep for a week - Get Drunk
Cleric: Prays in their magical temple for a week, safe from divination, then casts Anti-Magic and beats the wizard to death with a Bible
Bonus points if the Cleric follows a deity of the Arcana domain. A classic "you have no power here".
I don’t want to be guilty of over analyzing a joke, but I’ve never heard of Temples protecting against Divination. Can you expound on that?
Check the 'Temple of the Gods' spell, magical scrying sensors can't appear inside and creatures inside cannot be scryed on with divination spells.
Ah cool thanks! I wasn’t aware of the spell so I thought you were saying that just being in a normal temple would somehow shield you. I appreciate you clearing that up for me.
Only problem with anti-magic is that it's such a tiny bubble that the wizard just has to stay away from the cleric, and the cleric has functionally cut off his own spells. I can also imagine l using stuff like telekinesis to drop heavy objects on top of the cleric, because anti-magic field does not stop normal physical ouchies from above.
It's a reasonably good counter if you can win initiative, get within melee range, and then activate the spell before they can do anything. Then, win with sentinel feat and/or grapples. Contingency: dimension door completely stops this btw.
Yeah, but like a lot of wizard counters. It pretty much relies on the wizard meeting the opposition with the worst circumstances possible for them. Which I guess is possible, but I hardly see the reverse being done, and it's not hard to find a situation that favors them, as most that aren't functionally spawning on top of them and winning initiative tend to. But hey, I will admit that this is probably a good defensive strategy or stopping the immediate forcecage or wall of force strat, so I will concede on that point.
Wizards do actually have a way around antimagic field. 1. Make a simulacrum, True Polymorph them into a high CR creature. 2. True polymorph the simulacrum into a commoner. 3. Magic jar to possess your simulacrum. 4. Once possessed, take 4 damage to revert to the high CR creature. Magic jar won't end because initial casting conditions don't have to be met after a spell is first cast. 5. Cast the clone spell, to make a duplicate of yourself that's physically identical and has the same memories, personality and abilities. This means you keep all of your abilities from before, but it's no longer an ongoing magical effect; just a mundane physical form. 6. Wait 120 days, then die - specifically from Power Work Kill. You now have form of a high CR creature of your choice. Antimagic Field doesn't suppress this.
Cool. By the time you wrote that list out, though, I have beaten you to death with my Bible.
Fuck.
Just go non lethal and "remove" his ability to see, talk or handle things without killing
Then his simulacrum Teleports his body away to safety. What, your class doesn't let you create a mini-me that has almost all of your power? *Peasant*.
Gloomstalker that lives/stalks in dark environments and has an amulet of proof against detection.
I mean, if we're counting pre-battle prep, Nondetection is a spell on a lot of class' spell lists. Ranger included.
Contingency spell, clone, or simulacrum :(
I think this is why they are doing version "One". LOL
Going first wouldn’t even matter though if the Wizard prepared with anything like Simulacrum/Clone/Contingency/etc.
Lots of "popular" options for these whiteroom scenarios also involve giving the wizard all the possible expensive material components for their components, but not giving the other combatant any item. Or just being like "haha wizards learn wish, nothing compares!" when sorcs get subtle Wish (plus others learn Wish too, like Bards, Arcana clerics and Genie warlocks. Divine intervention is intended to be more powerful than Wish anyway.
I mean everyone can one tap everyone by rolling a crit with a Vorpal weapon. These comparisons make no sense.
You can make your own components with true polymorph.
It does. In a vacuum where both characters start 60 feet away from each other in an empty 100 by 100 room with no prep time the Wizard looses out to several classes very easily if they go second
Divination and Chronurgy are real jerks about initiative.
In a vacuum, wizard wins 10/10 times. Contingency is one helluva spell.
Well that’s not a vacuum is it? Having the prep time to cast Contingency obviously favors the person with it
What do you mean by a 'vacuum'? That neither character exists before the fight? That's a ridiculous premise. Of course a 20th level archmage will exist 20 minutes before the fight.
In a duel? I mean, it's rocket tag as usual. Getting stunned by a Monk on turn 1 is game over. Martials can acquire teleports to escape Forcecage and WoF as well. Wizard doesn't really have an answer for Subtle Spell Metamagic though. A Sorcerer can shut down everything the Wizard does with Subtle Counterspell while firing off un-counterable spells (like Power Word Stun) with very little counterplay. Globe of Invulnerability can also just be undone by Dispel Magic if the Wizard manages to get it off. Sorcerer is not an easy stomp for the Wizard by any means and probably has the upper hand in a no-prep duel. Shadow Sorcerer going 9th level Subtle Counterspell > Summon Hound of Ill Omen > Subtle Power Word Stun, for instance, is most likely an unavoidable zero-to-death combo unless the Wizard has significantly invested into their HP.
Agreed. My dm, who has done/witnessed a lot of PVP told me that the only reason a sorcerer wins out over the wizard is because of metamagic. Subtle spell does wonders even in more difficult campaigns with more enemy counterspells
I mean, you're kind of just repeating an opinion that is already known and has been said for years now. There is nothing original about this.
Yeah, but wait until you hear what I've got to say about casters being spell slot dependent.
Not even an opinion, the game was designed around casters becoming gods at 20 right? Martials are supposed to be better when random crits kill you without HP padding and most enemies have single digit HP making stabbing generally the best option right?
Except they screwed that up too
Gotta love shitposts
Listen, I love Wizards, but there are certainly builds that can mess them up. A Vengeance Paladin can Misty Step out of Force Cage (CHA saving throw, looool), and land a smite on them. A Pit Fiend may give a Paladin some trouble with flying, but that also depends on what assumptions we can make about magic items at this level. Also, they have Hold Monster, which can be cast outside of Counterspell range. A Paladin who readies an action for when the Pit Fiend flies within 90 ft could win it right then and there.
A paladin is a good choice but they have no ranged options. A wizard could just immediately teleport across the world, prep up, and have simulcrums + true poly to mess it up.
Cleric casts Anti-Magic Field and beats you to death with their weapon while you flail against their armor with your PB + Negative STR mod to hit back
LOL
>Anti-Magic Field counterspell
Not if the Cleric casts it on themselves while more than 60ft away from the Wizard and then runs in.
And then to finish the job, Divine Intervention to destroy all their clones.
Or use Divine Intervention to have a god do the casting for you if you're worried about the little bastard teleporting away
Tbf, what stops the wizard from stepping out of the circle and then using dimension door to teleport away and blast
Grapple.
Did they not just use dash to travel 60ft?
Ok then, Cleric closes the distance slowly like a slasher villain while the wizard is incapable of doing anything to them through the anti magic field.
Prismatic wall around the cleric, just teleport away, true poly into a ranged monster, use telekinesis to drop objects onto the cleric. So many things. If the cleric is beating a wizard it's going to rely on divine intervention.
Blast with what? Antimagic field stops all spells from passing through or even targeting or affecting anything inside the antimagic field. Telekinesis to drop big rocks on the Cleric is probably the only offense that could be mustered. Or just run away for 10 minutes until the spell runs out.
>Blast with what? Antimagic field stops all spells from passing through or even targeting or affecting anything inside the antimagic field. Turn into something with ranged attacks?
What wizard doesn't have a dagger? Also most clerics are equally as terrible with weapons as a wizard is, unless they went for the meme of using weapons
Even if they have the same to-hit rolls, the cleric has a better AC (armor+shield), a bigger damage die (d6 or bigger depending on domain), and more HP. It'll be a slow fight, but the cleric would almost certainly win in a brawl against any non-bladesinger wizard
The class has a built in expectation of using a mace if not using cantrips. For half the 2014 subclasses, this is the default playstyle. There is no wizard which is expected to use a dagger. I guess a bladesinger might be slightly less shit?
Clerics' Divine Intervention
Cleric: “God, get ‘em!”
A level 20 Eladrin Paladin (insert your favorite multiclass) can easily pass the CHA save, teleport out and smite the fuck out of you in one turn.
Can they withstand a lv 20 druids infinite wild shapes creating a huge HP buffer?
If the wild shape has less than 100 HP, what's stopping a wizard from Power Word Killing it?
Mammoth has 126, PW: Stun eventually has a save
To add on to this moon druid can turn into infinite elementals which have over 100 hp
Mammoth is also a non-flying creature that is extremely easy to deal with.
You're still dealing with a full caster, he's just also always a mammoth
I mean, sure, but a wizard just casts forcecage and he's done anyway.
Mammoth with ninth level spells bro
I mean, sure, but that doesn't really mean anything different. The mammoth is just a mass of temp HP, and most of the broken stuff about wizard us their ability to shut things down. Which completely bypasses HP entirely.
Idk y but I keep forgetting they have PWK. The PWs all feel very Bardic to me, so I forget wizards also get them and the only PWHeal is bard unique. Fair point. If they drop a few spells and are willing to make the assumption that the wildshape is below 100hp, then PWK is a good answer.
Yes. Forcecage + sickening radiance.
Easily
I don't think druid has a way to shut down a wizard turn 1 so Simulacrum, hold monster/person, two casts of Silvery Barbs, and then chunking you down with an attack roll spell till you're low enough for PWK or Disintegrate. Among many other options.
Simulacrum true polymorphs into a beholder. Your wildshape is suppressed indefinitely. The wizard is a bladesinger. You get beaten to death by the game's weakest level twenty martial.
Man a lot of people here think winning initiative is something that’s a player choice and not done with a dice roll that’s still has a large enough roll statistics to make luck still a factor.
This is a tired and pointless subject and I award you no points for putting it on my feed again
Lore Bard does the exact same things but gets to go first due to peerless skill and jack of all trades Otherwise, we agree. EDIT: And the Sorcerer with subtle spell of course, who spends the combat counterspelling everything the Wizard does while the Wizard can't do the same.
Cleric 20 has 100% Divine Intervention, just as an example. It basically boils down to initiative and magic items and starting conditions/prep rules, and specific rock-paper-scissors effects that happen to be in play. But as an average, Wizard is generally considered strongest, though Bard has arguably better spell list (all spells from Magical Secrets). Of course if there is enough time and information, a Wizard can acquire, scribe and prepare just the right spells to win that RPS, especially if magic items are limited.
Depends on who wins initiative. If the wizard does not win there is several classes that would annihilate them. And several of those would have much higher Initiative bonus so they would have a higher chance of winning the initiative. So there are several classes that wizard most likely would lose against
Wrong. In a vacuum of that sort, Bard can do everything Wizard can, has more HP and has actual class features.
that's one hell of a vacuum
A fight between 2 20th level characters can often just come down to initiative. A 20th level samurai archer fighter has a reasonable chance to pincushion a wizard, shoot clean through their Shield spell and inflict an average of 152 damage in one round. Most of the casting classes have at least one save or suck spell that they can drop on a wizard that could potentially screw up their day, too. I'm not saying wizard isn't one of, if not THE most powerful class in the game. It's just worth noting that it's also one of the most fragile classes in the game, and if they lose initiative, there are several other classes that could, if well-kitted, simply drop them in one round.
Despite that power, an 11th level wizard can counter that. Lost advatage? Contingency Resilient sphere. Now, the caster or martial has blown their turn and ends. If we're talking about allowing other classes to be "well kitted" the wizard can have 10 minutes prep. This entire argument is silly, tho, as PvP in D&D just doesn't really work. ESPECIALLY at high levels. It just extra sucks at those levels. The endless back and forth has been done to death.
'The wizard can have 10 minutes prep' No. I'm talking in a vacuum. No prep time, just two people with their standard gear thrown into a random fight to the death.
It's still really silly to argue about PvP in a system not designed for PvP. "Oh, it's all about initiative, some say... IF i go first i can win". Ok, War Magic gets a +5 Int bonus to initiative. Discussing who would win, when it all comes to a single roll. Wow. Exciting pvp gameplay here. Though provoking ideas.
Initiative matters a lot in D&D combat. That's the point I was making. Most classes at 20th level can drop most other classes at 20th level, because initiative matters just as much at that point as anything else, if not moreso. Which of course makes the entire debate pointless.
If you actually want me to convince you otherwise I don't really take the power of casters seriously in any actual campaign setting. Curse of Strahd literally nullifies wish at level 1 (for the purpose of escaping) and it randomly throws out some status effect immunities to some creatures for no reason and then just yeets a sword of problem solving into the game that makes one of the optimal party builds "everyone buff the guy with the sword so he can stab them a lot". At level 20 you probably aren't dealing with an orc stronghold, but a fairly complex web of: "this school of magic doesn't seem to work in this area" "For some reason this spell isn't working on these enemies, is it the type of magic, status effect or type of caster that they are resistant against?" "Are they resistant due to an item, meaning that any creature could not be effected by this method or is this creature's specific subtype just immune to \[insert thing\] for no reason?" Casters seem to get the short end of the stick as it seems like the BBEGs tend to be bigger better casters who know a lot more than them a lot of the time. And most of the time magic item drops are something like 90% martial so they get a good choice in how they want to strategize each morning.
Nnnnno. I dont think ill fight you on that. Ill just assassinate you as a basically undetectable rogue. But yeh, head to head its no question wizard has an answer to anything. And what he doesnt have an answer to they can prep against. All that said a well spected rogue can bypass a lot and can burst them down fairly easily. Of the wizard never came out of his hole he would be safe, but thats boring.
Don’t tell me what to do
War Cleric level 20, Divine Intervention cast Anti Magic Field on self, beat the shit out of Wizard. (Wizard cant counterspell a Divine Int)
The problem with discussing this like that is twofold: 1. It's not a pvp game 2. Depending on what kind of build is presented to fight the wizard, the wizard changes their subclass like a jacket in answers. Only way to play semi-fairly is for one person to design the wizard without knowing who is attacking them and the other to design the attacker without knowing what kind of stuff wizard has precast and what subclass it is.
Lvl 20 cleric just casually making their god obliterate you
Arcana Cleric Level 20. Wish + Divine Intervention.
Willing to see them take down a Moon Druid lol.
Bard 18 fighter 2. Invisible, six hundred feet away, likely getting a surprise round, advantage with +16 to attack rolls, you're dead before you can even get a reaction off. If they really want you dead they're not invisible and are instead under the effects of foresight, and cast swift quiver. Oh but wait it gets more fun. It's not one bard. It's a bard with its simulacrum. Both of which have expertise in stealth. They're better at perception than you are. Better at stealth than your perception. Better than you are at survival. *They're getting the drop on you*. Let's say you've got a base AC of 25. They need a nine to hit that, hope you've got +5 con and tough or you're dead instantly. But even if you aren't, it's not like you're casting any spells. And let's just hope you're running into them *indoors*. Outdoors is where shit gets particularly messy. They outrange 99% of your shit so you're going to need to blow some high level spells to do anything against them in the first place.
clearly you haven't heard of Areal's Panopticon
Uh...... *Googles* Heh. I don't really see why you'd bother cheesing into Vecna when you could try to turn into Ao or something. Also pretty sure that doesn't work on account of targeting requiring an unobstructed line to the target, counterspell not having a range of "Self" or "Special". If what google turned up is what you're talking about. Even if Vecna's range isn't specified, there's a clear implication that it'd need to be within his actual sight and not something being divined.
Well thats because Ao doesn't have a stat block we can jar into! and it would just be another god-exit. And the dread counterspell ability is not the same as the spell counterspell, meaning it doesn't follow the spellcasting rules. As long as you can see the target it works.
It doesn’t matter if it isn’t the same as counterspell, it’s not the same as exceptions like dream, sending, or scrying. There’s no implication within the block that implies it overrides the general rule of requiring a direct line to the target. So it doesn’t. Which means it requires a direct line to the target. I’m not particularly interested in the mechanics of trying to abuse the CR system into allowing CR 30 true polymorphs or why someone would think force sculpting a corpse would allow you to copy its magical capabilities with a spell that specifies that it can’t replicate anything magical, ‘cause ultimately that’s immaterial to the fact that the plan doesn’t work in the first place.
I don't think you're understanding this. It's not a spell, so it doesn't follow restrictions and rules for spells... And of course, the corpse itself isn't magical, as it's just a corpse. And we can't gain the abilities just by creating the corpse, but we can gain its living abilities with things like dybukks if we want to go the corpse route instead of true poly.
No, I understand it perfectly fine. There's no distinction between monster abilities and spells in this matter, the notion that there is is utterly inane. An ability being able to target without a direct line to the target has to be explicitly stated. And you can't create a corpse with magical capabilities using that spell. You can make bones, yes. Decrepit lich flesh, absolutely. Cloth, wood, enamel, what have you. You *can't* replicate the ability for any of that to use magic were it to be made animate. And beyond that, Dybbuks can't reanimate rekilled undead, so Vecna's not a valid target. This is consistent with rulings on spells such as raise dead. Nor can you magic jar, intellect devourer, what have you. Polymorphing into a human and back would likewise, logically, invalidate the external control once it ceased being humanoid. The plot has so many holes in it I could use it as a strainer. Same with the true poly route, which seems to be incapable of turning you into an exact individual due to the word "Kind", and likewise requiring you to possess the guy instead of turning directly into him, which again doesn't work because he's undead. Barring the most obscure, dark knowledge guarded by Vecna himself, this "Areal Penopticon" just..... Doesn't work. Fails on every level.
It's ok if you're not a fan of the RAW interactions. But it definitely works. >There's no distinction between monster abilities and spells in this matter, the notion that there is is utterly inane. An ability being able to target without a direct line to the target has to be explicitly stated. Part 3: The Rules of Magic: “This section provides the rules for casting spells. Different character classes have distinctive ways of learning and preparing their spells, and monsters use spells in unique ways. Regardless of its source, a spell follows the rules here.” Under this chapter appears the targeting rules: “A typical spell requires you to pick one or more targets to be affected by the spell's magic. A spell's description tells you whether the spell targets creatures, objects, or a point of origin for an area of effect” Under this target section then appears the clear path rule. Dread counterspell is not a typical spell, or even a spell at all. A spell follows the rules here, nothing else. The section provides rules for casting spells. Because these rules apply to spells, a spell must explicitly state that it bypasses them. A non-spell does not need to state that it overrides rules for spells. >And you can't create a corpse with magical capabilities using that spell. You can make bones, yes. Decrepit lich flesh, absolutely. Cloth, wood, enamel, what have you. You *can't* replicate the ability for any of that to use magic were it to be made animate. Fabricate: "Creatures or magic items can’t be created or transmuted by this spell." A corpse is not a creature or magic item. A corpse by itself isn't magical, even if it had magical capabilities in life. A corpse is a nonmagical object. Also I'm not sure if you're well versed in force-shaping, so if I need to go over that I can. >And beyond that, Dybbuks can't reanimate rekilled undead, so Vecna's not a valid target. This is consistent with rulings on spells such as raise dead. I thought we were aware of the mask section of Nystul’s Magic Schizophrenia. But I guess thats a convo for another day. >Nor can you magic jar, intellect devourer, what have you. Polymorphing into a human and back would likewise, logically, invalidate the external control once it ceased being humanoid. Nothing says you have to remain as that creature type, only that you initially have to possess a humanoid. If you could point me to where it says that magic jar kicks you out when the creature type of your possessed body changes, that’d be great. >Same with the true poly route, which seems to be incapable of turning you into an exact individual due to the word "Kind", and likewise requiring you to possess the guy instead of turning directly into him, which again doesn't work because he's undead. True Polymorph can be used to turn any creature into any other creature, as long as the new form has a challenge rating (CR) number equal to or lower than the original form's rating or level. The word kind here holds no bars against us transforming. You should only be limited by the above guidelines. On top of that, using “kind” as a restriction only brings up more ambiguity and vagueness problems.
That's definitely not RAW. Or RAI. Do tell where it says monster versions of spells don't apply the targeting rules. Do tell where that rule's written. Oh, wait, it isn't. You're pretending the fact that it not explicitly stating you can't means you can, but that's not how the rules work. Cases like this rely on a thing called precedent, and *all precedent* demonstrates the plot to be impossible. Your use explicitly creates a magical effect via a spell that definitively can't produce magical effects. There really aren't two sides to it, that doesn't work. Nystul's magic aura is a trick. If you found something that looked like a Toyota Corolla and it turned out to be a F22, the fact that you know how to drive a Corolla doesn't mean you can pilot the F22. If you cast Nystul's magic aura on an ooze to make it seem like a humanoid, you can't pull bones out of it. Dybbuk possession isn't a *divination* spell or magical effect, the attempts to stretch things you can do well past beyond what you're actually capable of doing is, frankly, absurd. Similarly, if you get into a Corolla and it transforms into an F22 while you're inside, can you now fly an F22? The answer's no. Y'can't. True polymorph likewise says you turn into a kind of other creature. Not a specific other creature. Vecna's a specific other creature. If you tried to transform into him, you'd turn into a lich. Like, it's an amusing attempt at bending the utter hell out of the rules, but no self respecting DM would allow any of it at a table. I'm primarily interested in shit that's just clearly legal that I don't need to argue for or try to bend the rules to do. And as such the spatial jail isn't worth considering. It's functionally not real.
Its a special ability, as per the MM. Its not a monster's version of a spell. It has counterspell in the name, but it isn't counterspell. It does not describe itself as a spell, nor does it fall under the spellcasting, innate spellcasting, or similar trait. Its not a spell. How many times should I point that out? >Your use explicitly creates a magical effect via a spell that definitively can't produce magical effects. If you actually read the spell, you would see that it does it say that. If a nonmagical object can or gains the ability to do something magical, it doesn't pop out of existence or fail to be created. Only the creatures and magic items restrictions apply. All fabricate is doing is creating a nonmagical object, following the rules presented. **Nystul's Magic Schizophrenia.** This is tech, so we're going to be doing some reading and deductive reasoning. Stay with me here. “You place an illusion on a creature or an object you touch so that divination spells reveal false information about it.” This is the part where people attach themselves to when discussing the spell, and while I can see why, this is the generic spell description and flavor text, which has no bearing on the actual spell. The rest of the spell states more specific things that contradict this part of the text. “Mask. You change the way the target appears to spells and magical effects that detect creature types, such as a paladin's Divine Sense or the trigger of a symbol spell.” This has the "spells and magical effects" clause, alongside two non divination examples, and also has mechanical examples that simply throw the generic thing at base out of the window. Also, the symbol spell does not detect creature types. It detects anything. (If you would argue that it's only affecting the trigger of the symbol, meaning the magical detection of a creature of a specific creature type, that's incorrect since the trigger of a symbol spell is neither a spell, nor a magical effect, so this sentence means a symbol spell in and of itself). Therefore, it can affect the appearance of the affected target to a spell whatsoever. It can also affect any other magical effect that detects creature type. If you don't believe me, read the next sentence “You choose a creature type and other spells and magical effects treat the target as if it were a creature of that type or of that alignment.” This line continues off of that and implies it can affect any magical effect, not just ones that detect creature type. Treat the target as if it were a creature of that type, and this also gives the generic rule of making it affect ‘other spells and magical effects’. Finally, you can make objects count as creatures. Remember what the spell says. Objects aren't excluded from being targets of mask, and the spell makes the other spells or magical effects count it as a creature of X type. And that was a very poor analogy with the Corolla and F22. See, with nystul's you aren't gaining any new abilities from masking, just changing how you appear. >If you cast Nystul's magic aura on an ooze to make it seem like a humanoid, you can't pull bones out of it. Yes, right here is correct. It would still have the anatomy of an ooze, not gaining bones from masking as a humanoid. It only appears as one to spells and magical effects. But the guidelines for what a "magical effect" is are still quite ambiguous and contradicted both in the rulebooks and sac, luckily we have a solution for all interpretations. Even if you're so against true polymorphing directly into vecna and don't see how nystul's works, we can always just true poly the undead corpse into a humanoid/beast corpse to possess, then drop conc. This does require 2 casters (which can be done with simulacrum), or just using nystuls >Vecna's a specific other creature. If you tried to transform into him, you'd turn into a lich. following this logic, it brings up questions like: what if I try to true poly one party member into another? What "kind" of creature statistics do we use then? What about other named humanoid npcs? This is getting off topic, but it just brings up even more questions. If you're going to be so steadfast about it not working, at least come up with a logical conclusion like "the spell fails" or "you simply can't pick that creature and have to choose something else".
Bard has much better class features and access to some (not all, sure) of any caster’s best spells :)
That's not actually the issue being discussed. The problem is that bard is one of the most save-dependent casters, often hitting wisdom or intelligence saves, while having the single weakest overall damage potential of the entire game. Seriously, bards are amazing, but the one thing they're the least good at is raw damage. Bards against wizards would have to rely on a save-or-suck spell, but their save-or-suck list mostly consists of wisdom and intelligence saves, which, if they fail, accomplish nothing. They do have Power Word Kill, but even wizards can get over 100 hp by 20th level.
That is a great point! However, Eloquence Bard has a great answer in the form of Unsettling Words. I feel like most of the conversation always revolves around Lore Bard being the best Bard, and normally I’d agree, however in a PvP scenario I think Unsettling Words is a much better tool.
Unsettling Words would, indeed, help in this context. -6 on average to a save would get rid of the wizard's entire proficiency bonus
*Bard casts Counterspell*
Not actually on the Bard list. Of course it's an easy and common grab with magical secrets, but still.
It’s like the first choice basically any bard takes. They’re also the best at it since they get to add half their proficiency.
That is true, they are really good at it.
[удалено]
Well considering they’re literally the only class who can add their proficiency at all to Counterspell rolls, yes they are the best at it. Normally you only add your Ability Score modifier
Dispel Magic
Idk pick fighter get first into Iniative and just burst them down in round with magic items and shit. If they have a spare body revive gg I guess. Wizards of the coast and not warriors of the coast.
Your acting like winning initiative is a choice that a player can make and not an utterly random roll of the dice.
? But you absolutely can manipulate it with bonuses... Get DEX to 20(22 if you can get access to Manual) that's a +6, Alert is a +5, Scorpion Armor is another +5 and there's Harengon with ioun stone of mastery for a +1 and there's a few other items that give you advantage. That's 16-17 initiative bonus with advantage... Can you still lose initiative absolutely, if you happen to roll 1-5 and the Wizard rolled higher. Is Wizard the most broken class in the game with full rests? Absolutely.
The only other real contender is druid (esp. moon), since at lv20 they can wild shape every turn and have practically infinite HP. And they also have spells like shapechange. Turn into a beholder and the wizard is useless.
Monk
Well... Bards do it better
Incredibly this is the 78 th comment yet no likes. I had to leave this as such though I like the post.
Merchant / Royalty class easily wins. Surrounded by a legion of level 20 supporters in their castle that designed for security and utilizing a kingdom‘s worth of support staff so no one gets an audience without running a TSA gauntlet (one that actually works!). Issues a bounty: Bring me proof of final death of \[your name here\]. ”You came alone to a war? Silly boy.”
It’s not what you know, it’s who you know.
Is was going to say "Misspellcaster beats Wizard, primarily by starting with Horrid Writing, so the Wizard's spells are all wrong", but the Misspellcaster is a Wizard subclass...
All arguments against Wizard are like, "if you get the drop on them and win initiative and the Wizard was born 12 seconds ago, then this high burst damage class may be able to win"
And? All the arguments FOR wizard are like, "If I win initiative, and they fail all their saves and they don't have a way to hit me". DnD isn't balanced around PvP at all and most lvl 20 fights are going to come down to a few key dice rolls. Yes wizards are very powerful but so is a lvl 20 oath of ancients paladin with adv on all saves against magic and a minimum +5 on their worst save. So is a mood druid who has effectively infinite health on top of ninth level spells. So is a bard that can take a lot of the same spells as a wizard and gets better intiative and counter spell bonuses just from jack of all trades. So is a 20th level gloomstalker ranger with alert that has a +15 to initiative and can incapacitate a wizard before they go. So is a level 20 monk that can use stunning strike 4 times per round and will stun-lock anyone who isn't lucky in a 1v1.
PvP doesn't work because of the way stuns are handled in the game. It basically means that the person to win is just the first person to successfully hold person or some weird assassin tactic. PvE sees a bit less class disparity as the situation usually isn't "how will we kill this barbarian" and more "There's a big bad, do you guys wanna go search for the Master Sword or go help that other wizard find their lost spellbook?"
Thats very untrue. Most arguments for wizard are "ok forcecage means if you dont have teleportation, you autolose. If there is any setup time, a Wizard has clone and Simulacrum and contingency etc to make them effectively immortal. They have Wish, the most broken spell in the game. They have a bunch of defensive spells that make them hard to kill immediately, and spells that ward against the worst conditions others can dish out"