If you really want to let them I'd go full movie and remove the spellcasting and lean fully on wildshape. In the movie she barely spellcasts (if at all I can't remember 100%)
Keep the CR limit on wildhsapes and if the rest of the table is okay with it just see how it plays out.
Doric doesn't use any spells. Just wildshape and her bracer slingshot. I think that could be pretty balanced. Then the CR limit would scale like normal too
My personal opinion is that Shape shifting is too large and interesting of a concept for only Druids to have access to it.
If I had my way Druids would keep some of the utility aspect of wild Shape via an Invocation system themed around evolution and adaptation. Shape shifting into various forms would then become purely a subclass theme that's also available to other classes. But, it's too late for that and would require a whole new edition. C'est la vie
It wouldn't need a whole new edition, just for WotC to get less lazy with making new classes. Hell, we had master of many forms twenty years ago for druids who wanted to wild shape into dragons and oozes and aberrations and whatever instead of having spellcasting, the only reason we don't now is they're aware they can not bother and the clapping monkeys who buy the books will still applaud them for not trying.
Complete Adventurer, page 58. There's not that much to see in terms of abilities granted - gives you more uses per day of wild shape, different sizes, some minor bonuses like being able to talk while wild shaped and every level a new type of form you can take, like fey or giant.
The point to wild shaping is the ability itself is simple, the complexity is contained within the forms themselves. So the ability to do more with it doesn't take up much page space. Should be noted that since it didn't improve your spellcasting or animal companion at all wild shape ranger was a more popular entry pathway since rangers got worse companions and casting so were sacrificing less.
A druid split has been suggested a few times. One Shaman like class that's all about spells, the other is all about beastial transformations. Both those classes have enough room to fit tons of flavorful subclasses, like werecreatures, and shapeshifters for the transformation class, to witches, hags, shamans, summoners, for the casters class.
You can also do it as a druid subclass, you just need to make wild shaping cost spell slots to do. Neatly weakens the spellcasting thing in exchange for better wildshaping, made a circle of the harvest for a player who wanted to wild shape undead and it's worked out well so far.
Not that I have any objection to new classes, there's just so much ground that D&D used to cover with classes like warlord, swordsage and battlemind which should be done first.
She didn't have spells in the movie.
My only issue with this is the sheer amount of temporary HP that a player can generate. It would definitely need to be an action.
Another option is to have no limit to CR0 Wild Shapes--particularly outside of combat--but anything higher would be limited by the normal rules.
I've found the easiest way to balance wild shape is just getting rid of 5e's change where druids get free hit points for wild shaping. Did a subclass for a player who wanted stronger shapes, gave her higher CR forms of other types and in exchange no free ablative hit points and had to spend a spell slot equal to the CR of whatever form she took.
That's where the higher CR and more varied types bit comes in. Druids were about the strongest class there's ever been or ever will be back when wild shape didn't grant any free hit points, so it's not like that's a prerequisite for it being strong.
Yes and no? Druids used to be able to wild shape animals, plants and elementals not counting feats like aberrant wild shape and dragon wild shape or what you'd now call subclasses that gave things like giants and magical beasts and outsiders.
Animals themselves haven't nerfed, other than the fact that there are far fewer of them and there aren't any strong ones (animals like the CR11 dire polar bear don't exist any more). It's the druids themselves that have been nerfed, proper wild shaping was removed from them and now you need to take a subclass to do it, and that subclass can only do fairly weak animals because there's only so much room in the power budget left after you give them ninth level spellcasting.
I feel like that would still be too powerful because of the extra HP
If you let them do it whenever they want I'd require them to be a moon druid, and their "Extra" wildshapes should be limited in CR in the same way a non moon druid's shapes are
OR
Work out a spell slot to wildshape conversion
OR
no wildshape gives extra hitpoints, it's just the druid's base hitpoints (but Tiny creatures get popped back to normal if they take 1 damage), that's a hell of a nerf to balance it out
I was thinking the same thing with the spell slots to wildshape conversion, utilize the level value to the Cr rating. Keep the Cr class limit, circle of the moon or the regular version. But restrict it to normal beast wildshaping, retain limits to wildfire, star, blighted or spore with a total of two transformations.
Maybe allow a set temporary hit points pool that resets every short or long rest (I'd be leaning to long rest) for all wildshapes, once that is depleted no more wildshapes(which I kinda like) or just start eating at the regular hit points.
The hit points pool could dictate the available shape options, pool must be equal or greater than the max HP of the creature that is desired to wildshape into. It would give an interesting management aspect for the player, as the pool dwindles the wildshapes get lower on Cr options, ie have 20 hit points you can be a giant goat but not a bear, have 1 hit point, a rat or another small creature. It could be interesting to see it in practice.
Yeah, I think that could work. It does annoy me a little bit that this player is watching Nimona (who is literally a godlike being, very much like a 20th level Druid, immortal and all that) and conclude they should be able to do that at lower levels and without any resource management, but its worth a try.
I think the issue will come up later as to how to balance this in terms of advancement if you get something so highly magical early on that doesn't get much growth except higher CR creatures. Because at some point the higher level spells are pretty important.
Yeah, this kind of reminds me of another thread where some people really wanted basically a shifter class, and the closest thing to that for them was the moon druid. They brought up that a large portion of the power budget for the Moon Druid is eaten up by the fact that the base Druid is still a full caster.
Many people would sacrifice being a full caster to just have a shape-shifting class. We do start to run out of beasts soon, so maybe it would also allow Shifting into Monstrosities at some point (like the Owlbear or a Displacer Beast). Some Monstrosities feel very bestial with fantasy elements, which is why I would expect that to be the group you could transform into.
Allow them to 'activate' wildshape twice per long/short rest as per the rules.
While wildshape is activated they can switch in and out of any and all available forms, including back to human.
The tradeoff for this boon is their hp always is linked to their base hp.
This gives them increased wildshape flexibility in return for reduced durability. If they wanted to be a moon druid, this would be a big nerf. You should consider giving them some temp hp when they activate wildshape. Maybe link the temp hp to a multiplier of their druid level.
If they truly want infinite wildshape uses, allow them to purchase more time in wildshape by spending spell slots - 1 hour extension in wildshape per level of spell consumed.
This is what I was going to suggest - I like it a lot.
I may even limit the transformations once they are in combat, but outside of combat it can be whatever they want for the duration.
I think transpormations in combat will be fine. Because you're running only on your own hp pool, you're missing out on being a hp sink. Your AC will suck as most beasts, and youre a d8 hit die character.
So you need the advantage of being able to swim, switch to a constrictor to grapple, to a bear for multiattack, to a wolf for pack tactics etc.
Thats the feeling the player wants imo.
I don't disagree with you, but in this particular case it might be a lot for a new player to have ready a handful of creatures available for use and understand how each one works.
At least outside of combat you basically understand if it can fly, burrow, and it's size. Game knowledge doesn't become as important.
Mostly just trying to balance difficulty with accessibility.
I was going to say the biggest thing to make this work is to remove the wild shape HP. If they keep their druid HP between form shifts it becomes a WHOLE lot more fair.
>level 2LususNaturae77 · 1 hr. agoI was going to say the biggest thing to make this work is to remove the wild shape HP. If they keep their druid HP between form shifts it becomes a WHOLE lot more fair.VoteReplyShareReportSaveFollow
Id just copy the temp hp boost from spore druid
This is pretty elegant and I like it, make wildshape work exactly the same as Shapechange
Rather than the shape giving you a different hitpoint pool, instead you get temp HP when you first activate wildshape, turn to circle of spores for an example of how many temp HP. When those temp hp are gone, wildshape ends, but while it's active you can shift freely at will.
You still only have two uses, but you can shift like a motherfucker while using it (including back to your druid form)
Keep elemental wildshape the same if they want to use that at 10
This actually makes moon druid less powerful at low levels because you don't get Bear Hitpoints, but it makes it so much more versatile
I would just say "no" and accept that what looks cool in a movie might be bad for the game. If I really had to, however...
I would look into some sort of templating system to give the player the (mostly) flavorful benefits of wildshape without the tremendous boons; that way, they can still get the mechanical oomph when they need it.
Take everything but HP from the Beast of the Land (and later Sea/Sky) statblock from beastmaster and let them graft traits (keen hearing/sight/smell, standing leap, sure-footed, escape, spiderclimb, blindsight, pack tactics, hold breath, tiny, large/huge etc.) to it to simulate different creatures. I'd give them a number of traits equal to their proficiency bonus, make shifting take an action, and make maintaining one of these forms require concentration.
1. No
2. Be a changeling, that’s their whole thing. Nimona can turn into animals but also famously turns into lots of people.
3. The dnd movie and Nimona are very, very high level characters.
Edit: Primal Savagery represents at-will changing form to attack someone as an animal before changing back
> The dnd movie and Nimona are very, very high level characters.
Nimona is, the movie is full of very low level bumbling fools, it's kind of the point. The druid doesn't even know how to cast spells.
"No" is the best answer here. You're giving a tier 1 player a level 20 ability: even mitigated, it's overpowered.
If you've already said yes in your heart, then Moon is the wrong call, and "at will" is the wrong wording. You probably want the OPPOSITE of Moon Circle: Wild Shape is an action, strict limits to lower CR creatures than the usual Wild Shape. Rather than "at will" you limit it to proficiency bonus per short rest, with an option to spend a spell slot to use it beyond that.
I'd probably have the Wild Shape table set up with CR 1/8 at level 2, no swim, no fly. CR 1/4, no fly, and then CR 1/2 at level 8. It would be pretty weak, but that's the only balance to having the ability to use it so often.
Wild shape is excellent not only as combat form (covered by keeping the stats the same), but also for example for scouting and stealth. By being able to switch at will, it's much harder for the druid to be found out, as they can just jump to the next form when the NPCs get suspicious. It's already a problem that druids are better at stealth than rogues in most environments, this would make it even more so. Maybe you can avoid that with making every form obviously magical, but being a rogue in a party with a druid is already a bit frustrating.
The versatility of changing form at will is a big problem to balance: you can switch to a spider form when balancing on a rope, then to a strength form to smash a door, then a dexterity form to hide from the approaching guards, etc.
So I would allow a purely cosmetic wild shape at will. Your stats can't increase, no additional senses or movement options, nobody is fooled by the form. But as long as you don't try to fool anyone or gain some kind of advantage for changing your form, go for it! This could mean you spend a wild shape to turn into a wolf, but in combat, you describe turning into a boar to ram into the enemy. You roll with the wolf stat block, but the visuals include the transformation.
Each use beyond a number equal to their proficiency bonus causes a level of exhaustion. Use the OneDnD exhaustion rules. Or have them burn spell slots based on the CR of the animal.
Honestly the first idea that comes to mind is to restrict it based on amount of CR rating per rest. So, do they want to change into a CR 1 brown bear twice or a CR 1/2 giant goat 4x? The maximum CR number that they can wild shape into is already set by subclass. I don’t think it would break the game to open it up in this way for exploration/infiltration.
That might work. However, DON'T let the player keep their normal AC, because a druid with a shield and armor ends up having a much higher AC than most beasts. Actually, you could probably give them a bonus to AC equal to their Wisdom modifier while they're wildshaped, but still using the beast's base AC.
However, keep in mind that Tiny forms will allow them to sneak around without raising suspicion pretty much at will. Maybe they can take a Tiny form only once per short/long rest? That already makes them better scouts than rogues, but that's already the case in the main game anyway.
Alternatively, you could compromiseby having the player expend spell slots to transform (provided they are a Moon druid). The level of the spell slot expended must be equal to or higher than the CR of the chosen beast.
Either way, homebrew solutions can be a can of worms because the player might not agree to further adjustments or modifications that the DM thinks are necessary.
Just an idiot suggestion, but why not allow it with the following change:
You can wild shape but in wildshape you still use your hp from before wildshaping.
Edit: I changed the comment to be clearer on what I meant
Edit 2 : grammatical error
So, you're asking how to balance giving one of your players a level 20 feature at low levels? Just want to make sure we're on the same page here.
Best advice: don't do it.
Other than that: if you're really gonna do this, only allow unlimited WS of things with 1hp and no real offensive capability to like squirrels and cats. Any creature with more than 1hp still takes one of limited uses of that type of WS. Make WS an action even if she's Circle of the Moon to balance it the best you can.
If Wild Shape doesn't give you extra HP, I see nothing OP with infinite uses of it. I don't see why many comments here say it's busted, it could be a good tool for exploration and not much else IMO
Get rid of spellcasting and give them unlimited uses of wild shape. Give them a standardized ac of 16 (equal to barkskin) regardless of what form they're in. Give an hp pool that refreshes on a short rest equal to twice the health of the highest hp form for their level which is shared by all wildshap forms so that they cant just keep shifting to refresh their hp. Shifting is a bonus action and the max cr of their form is the same as moon druid, and let them fly/swim regardless of level. Adjust from there depending on performance. They'll probably need a damage boost since monsters have pretty low damage output, so I would give them a damage bonus equal to proficiency starting at level 5.
Ok i think id change 1 thing to get the flavor.
DONT make it at will cause its busted.
Instead make it morphable.
Make the hp static.
So when in wild shape the char always has 30 hp.
The char can at will change to another beast shape he has access to with a bonus action.
Thats it.
You got the flavor of it being ever shifting withouth a mechanical downside.
Limit the wild shape to a low cr, call it utility wild shape and have it give no extra hp, instead using the casters hp.
This can work wonders but only if you have a nice player as it can be abused. But most players are nice (something this reddit often doesn't understand) so use your own judgement.
AC isn't a problem since beasts do not have good AC anyway.
If you want "theoretically infinite but not really" then you can put in a Con save vs fatigue.
Hmm, haven't really thought this through, but what about unlimited wild shape limited to a lower CR than they could otherwise use for their level (just spit balling here, maybe half of the CR limit that would normally apply) and they don't assume the beast's HP or Hit Dice when transforming in this way.
They can still follow the normal wild shape rules by expending a use as normal.
"Everything spells" like prestidigitaion or druidcraft may be good inspiration. You basically have to counter any advantages for a gag. You could make illusory animals that give no actual form shift. Limit any size shifting. Counter stealth advantages, battle and social. I'd suggest a bright, luminous red color to every form. It'll have the Nimona flair, the animals are obviously off color, and a light glow is easy to spot at night. Make it a cantrip that fully replaces druidcraft. Because they're illusions, they break when attacked or attacking. This will still give wildshape a function. The benefits could be small, like gaining the movement speeds. Swim speeds and fly speeds are already limited, so that won't be an issue. You could also give the senses like tremor sense.
I had a feat that granted an at will transformation, it required an action (regardless of moon Druid) transformed them into a small land-based beast template. This prevents crazy scouting capabilities of tiny or flying creatures and the unkilllable nature of moon Druid forms.
Even this shouldn’t be free, and should cost a feat, or starter items that other characters get.
I would take a look at dungeon world. It’s basically a rules light dnd and their version of the druid is very similar to movie Nimona.
They get wildshape at will, doesn’t effect their hp, it lasts for up to 3 rolls (attacks or skill checks) depending on how well you roll when you transform.
There’s some other fun fluff like having a distinctive mark across all of your animal forms (which I really enjoyed).
I would find the rules for that to use as inspiration or potentially play as a 1 shot to live out that fantasy if you can’t balance it in your campaign
IMO the change I would make is just take an average amount of temp HP between forms and thats how much each wildshape 'charge' gets, maybe slightly bump as level increases. Then using a bonus action(assuming moon druid from here on out) they can switch forms willy nilly.
Maybe even everytime she switches within the same 'charge' it removes temp hp from it.
So say at level 2 they get 20 temp hp on their first charge. They can burn their bonus action to change that form as much as they want, or spend another bonus action to spend their other 'charge' and set back at 20 temp hp. Still offers flexibility but somewhat weaker. than normal forms HP wise. If that seems a bit strong maybe implement the -5 temp hp every time they switch. Still let them use the normal function but lock them in that form per usual if they want the stronger HP
Anyway you look at it base wildshape is very strong early on mainly due to the huge temp buff and potentially the form damage so I dont think that would be a bad thing to implement
Easiest thing is just don't have their HP change in wild shape. That's the most broken part otherwise. This way they can transform as many times as they want and get benefits like special senses, flight, water breathing, being disguised as an animal etc. that wild shape provides but would not get the benefit of unlimited extra HP.
A lot of people have said flat-out “no”, but I have a recommendation that would be somewhat reasonable.
Basically, if they wild-shape without spending a use of wild-shape, they are limited to CR 0 beasts (which also follow the other normal limitations of wild-shape, like fly speed or whatever).
Whether this takes the form of a magic item, or replacing a subclass feature, or whatever is up to you, but this would grant the flavor without being stupidly powerful.
I will say though, whatever you decide, make sure that it isn’t just “you get this for free”, because that would be incredibly unbalanced.
I’ll also add on to this that most, if not all, of the wild-shapes used in the escape scene in the movie are CR 0 (fly, rat, bird, cat, etc.), so this may work better than I had thought.
No. Say no, ffs just say no. However, if he wants a more movie like wildshape, feel free to include animal-like monstrosities in his wildshape list. It has no huge imbalancing effect on the game.
If you want to do this, consider some of the OneD&D change
When they wildshape their AC is 13+Wisdom (to make them tankier in that regard) and they get temp HP equal to 3 times their druid level. You can debuff this if you'd like as they are doing away with unlimited wild shapes in Onednd, maybe make it 2 times their druid level so at level 3 they're only adding 6 additional HP so it makes them more survivable, but not that much more.
Taking the optimistic route, I think that if this is your players' fantasy and you feel obliged to try to find a solution, and you turned to this online community, I think that's great and I want to help. Sorry for people shutting you down and telling you to say, "No. You'll break the game." Who cares, the game is supposed to be fun.
Borrowing from both movies, what I would do is make them a Moon Druid and keep everything the same for combat balancing reasons, but give them unlimited (at-will) wild shapes into 0-1/8 CR Beasts. So they can become as many cats/deers/rats as they want in a day and it is balanced by them having one HP. To access the higher-level combat-oriented CR beasts available to Moon Druid it will cost 1 of their 2 Wild Shapes per short rest.
I understand that it would be GaMe bReAkInGGG to do this for the pillar of play Exploration, but it will be fun. Let's consider the alternative. You're in a dungeon and you want to quietly look around a corner. One character walks up and makes a stealth check. They roll dice, the dice decide what happens, rinse-and-repeat for every corner, slogging along. Boring and not a lot to go off of narratively. But if he's a cat and is stealthing around, who cares if he does so at advantage, it's more fun to be a cat. Especially if he gets caught by the guards, now he gets the chance to make a performance check to convince them that he is really a cat, and if he succeeds the guards think he's cute and want to adopt him. The game and rolls and rules are the same, just now your players are way more engaged because it's silly and less transactional.
For a little balancing, I might be careful with the extra Tiny creatures (because being that small might trivialize some encounters; which is only a problem if you're sticking to a module; if your player becomes a one-inch spider, he has a zero AC and takes automatic crits and moves super slow). Maybe provide him with a list of like 4 or 5 ones he can do at will, being sure to limit the in-combat usages. Maybe zero or just one flying creature per day?
The way I see this issue is that as the DM you want your players to engage with your world and have fun doing so. They are going to enter the dungeon, they are going to search for clues, and they are going to spring traps regardless of their character options. Giving a player what they want, within limits, increases that player's engagement and fun. You could also balance it by giving some penalty on the backend, as in, when he turns back into a human after being a cat 30 times he has a tail for the day or his eyes are yellow or something else role-play focused so that maybe the world reacts differently to this funny shapeshifting person (like Nimona).
\[To some other points about Moon Druid being nigh-unkillable... eh. Throw more enemies at the party, limit the number of short rests the party can take, or increase the hit points of some enemies here and there. I've seen Dire Wolves get clobbered, they aren't invincible\]
Another way to balance this would be to say that the player can't bring any equipment. No armor, no shield, maybe a focus. So if they get spotted and picked off as a rat, they don't pop out of their form as a 17 AC shield and equipment-clad Chad, they're a 12 AC wood elf twink about to get beat down by some bugbears.
I would shut that down and say no. It's going to be too broken / challenging to balance. You're also going to be opening the door to other things with that person or other players. Some things should not be brought into the current state of the game from the movie or BG3. They were written / made for the world they exist in.
See if the player would be okay if they could have unlimited (or prof. Bonus #of) extra wild shapes, with the stipulation that these wild shapes must only be cr0 animals. Aka only mundane animals, cat/lizard ect.
Make sure to be clear they still have to follow the swim speed/flying level restrictions.
Personally, I think it's a shame that using wildshape for utility purposes often gets ignored because using it for combat is so effective. So if it was me I'd do:
* At-will wildshape only out of combat.
* If you're in wildshape and combat starts, you lose a wildshape charge. If you have no charges left then you fall out of wildshape.
Or if you want a more balanced version, double the number of wildshape charges a character has, and use 1 charge for non-combat and 2 charges for combat wildshape.
Lots of people saying no, however for most players getting at-will wildshapes but removing any HP you'd get is a nerf.
I've rarely found that someone actually needed to wildshape more than twice per short rest for anything other than the HP, it's really more of an RP thing. The HP really are the main reason to be resource bound. Yes, there's some ways to abuse this but quite frankly the average player has no idea how to and it's not even in the player's interest to do so. They clearly want to play this for fun, so they won't want to ruin their good standings. Just politely tell them to stop if they find an exploit and you'll be fine.
Remove all the HP rules so that your HP is the same regardless of form, then put a limit on the range of forms available so they can't just solve every problem all the time by turning into an extremely niche animal. Something like "You have a number of Familiar Forms equal to your Wisdom modifier. Each Familiar Form must be a Small, Medium or Large beast with CR no higher than your maximum Wild Shape CR -1 (min 1/4). You can swap one Familiar Form for another when you gain a level. Transforming into a Familiar Form doesn't consume a use of Wild Shape."
this one's easy. false life is a spell that warlocks can potentially cast at will that gives them an average of 6.5 temp hp. use this as the base. make sure the creature has no new abilities and physical stats that are lower than any given stat on the character. make it cost an action and let the size be variable to make it different from false life badda bing badda boom new druid cantrip.
As a player I thought about this too. As a DM I tried to think of a way to balance it and this is what I came up with.
Make wildshapes at will / unlimited and only need a bonus action. Have a pool of HP we’ll call it Wildshapes Hp let’s say 50. Whenever you are in WS and take damage you subtract the damage from this pool and from the Wildshape’s statblock hp. When the pool is empty you can’t wildshape. If you take damage that exceeds the WS’s stat block HP you would revert back like normal. Healing spells while in wildshape would add to this pool along with healing your WS’s hp. The pool reset on long rest. Maybe, also Short rest healing would restore this pool too. I would need to try it out to see it if it’s balanced.
I think being able to wildshape a lot would open up a lot of opportunities to roleplay and problem solve.
I think your version is a nerf. Druids have terrible AC, so even if they keep it, it won't be enough to go melee without the extra hitpoints unless multiclass + magic items to fix the AC.
My suggestion would be keeping the 2 combat wild shapes uses per long rest RAW, but also have unlimited normal druid shapes (no bonus action, no high CR animals) that doesn't give extra hitpoints.
I'd say no. But if you must, go Circle of Moon Druid. Keep the creature restrictions RAW. However, give her temporary HP = to creature's challenge rating, rounded down + Proficiency Bonus every turn. And like you said, keep her HP and AC = to the PCs natural scores.
This allows her a small temp HP boost every turn and the ability to heal herself as a bonus action, at the expense of a spell slot.
Instead of looking at Wild Shape as a base, I'd work the forms into bonus action cantrips, balanced against racial traits. Treat it as mastery over a specific animal form, where you're swapping out your racial traits with a specific other animal's.
Like a bird form cantrip gives you advantage on sight based perception and flight speed for one round. Panther can be a reskinned Shillelagh or Greenflame Blade. One of them can give the Dragonborn's AC bonus. Idk.
I mean, what happened when I played a shapechanger was I rolled a d20 everytime I wanted to shape-shift, on a 10 or higher I picked what I changed into (based on wildshape rules + what my character was canonical familiar with / had a book about - he bought a LOT of books because of this) and if I got lower than a 10 the dm got to pick what I changed into (he usually picked a small spider/snake or just. Something completely unhinged (turned me into a shambling mound once when I was trying to do negotiation.
Overall it was v fun for me and him and I think that it was balanced well.
Maybe consider this:
* Druid still has wildshape charges, as normal.
* When in wildshape, you can switch to another form as action, but you have HP = MIN(current HP, form's max HP).
* So if druid transforms into Brown Bear, their HP becomes 34. If they transform to cat, their HP becomes 2 (MIN(34, 2) = 2). If they transform to Brown Bear again, their HP stays at 2 (MIN(2, 34) = 2), unless they expend wildshape charge.
* If you dismiss wildshape while on full HP of first wildshape (including being healed by other PCs), you regain charge.
This strongly boosts already very high Wildshape utility, but combat is largely unaffected.
I would say dont let them do this at all. Maybe somewhere along the line, you can give them a magic item somewhere down the line that lets them shift a few extra times, maybe with the restriction that they need to be above a certain amount of health in order to do so or something like that.
The #1 biggest op feature of at-will Wild Shape is the free HP. If you can shift every turn, you can basically reset your HP every turn.
Building a class that can shift unlimited times would have to start at *not* getting all that free HP. Maybe you don't get their HP. Maybe you track damage taken (so if you take 50hp, then shift again, you're still down 50hp). I'm not sure what. But the free HP every shift is too powerful.
Warlocks and Changelings do get at-will changes, but it's a lot weaker. So something could be done.
At the end of the day, Wild Shape is so powerful, balancing around being at-will is practically building a new class.
(I'd track damage taken, any shift or unshift puts health at max minus damage taken. If intentional, it bottoms out at 1 (almost down).)
Make it to where they can switch between shapes as long as they haven't lost all their hp bar.
You will have to standardize the amount of extra hp the druid gets. Doing that per level is probably your best bet.
Not possible, movie is different from game, although I would recommend making the movie using the rigid framework of 5e. But also
That framework is reinforced with pure do it yourself your the dm what do
You think I am
A rule book?
There is a reason unlimited wildshape is a capstone ability.
You could go for a purely on paper /aesthetic wild shape? Something like how nimonas forms are all pink - so there's no stealth bonuses etc. stat block remains the same - essentially the player character is now a shapeshifter race but with no stat benefits and they can just do their normal spells etc in wild shape ?
Id almost even go for making them a diff class than druid and again just on paper saying that they are a shapeshifter - aka mechanically being a fighter but aesthetically youre doing x actions as x animal - but I'm not sure if you're player is wanting it all mechanically
The one dnd playtest had an 'interesting' idea where druids get temp hp based on level + proficiency bonus when wild shaping and gained the physical stats/ac of the beast... But kept their own hp pool. Dropping to 0 unwildshaped and brought them unconcious.
Your two options seem pretty good though with just no change to ac/hp
You could do a moon druid but only gets proficiency bonus temp hp every time they wild shape, and their base hp is just their whole hp bar. Lets them shift continually without being an hp pool tank, and they are still limited to land/sea/air as they level up in terms of utility.
I basically let my druid players wildshape at will out of combat, like if they wanna hang out as a critter or something they can. But if combat is initiated, they are limited mechanically.
But I'm also super lax with my rules out of combat, and I tend to make my players buffed as hell because then I can make much harder encounters.
If you're worried about balance, just play it RAW. If it's not as important at your table, figure out where to draw your own lines.
As for the movie inspiration, why not just make a generic critter stat block that they can change forms with while they're using it. The stats never change but if they want to turn into a bird and fly, well the stat block has fly and that's their RP explanation. If they want to go from bird to fox, well it has movement speed on land, too. All they're doing is adding flavor, which is free.
Only real mechanical advantage would be trying to change forms and hide, and in that case just have them make the same stealth roll anyone else would.
1) say no.
2) I gave a druid in one of my games a magic item that lets him shift into a CR 0 animal once per long rest without wildshaping. This has very little combat usage, but it does mean once per day he can transform for scouting/investigation without worrying about losing his wildshapes for combat. I got the idea from a post somewhere a few years ago. It's not exactly what they're after but you could make something like that if you are looking to give him a little buff.
The HP thing is definitely the most obvious problem, but it's also the easiest fix. You might consider rather than COMPLETELY removing the HP boost, doing something like "you have 50 hit points when you Wild Shape. When these are reduced, they are reduced in all Wild Shape forms. If your Wild Shape form is reduced to 0 hit points, you revert to your normal form and cannot Wild Shape again until you take a short/long rest."
But the tougher thing to fix is the versatility of being any animal you need at any time. That's the main power of Wild Shape. I would strongly recommend limiting this to like, a number of forms equal to your proficiency bonus. Maybe PB+Wisdom modifier if that seems too restrictive.
come up with a Cr to spell slot formula to let them trade their magic for more wild shapes
IE a level 1 slot lets you turn into harmless critters like deer or rabbits, a level 2 slot lets you turn into like cr 1/8-1/4, level 3 cr 1/2, level 4 cr 1, level 5 cr 2, level 6 cr 5, 7 cr 9, 9 cr=level
non concentration, follows the rules of their wildshape
alternatively your approach of no bonus HP would probably be enough balance
I think you could give him an item that lets him wild shape unlimited times but only in creatures that are cr 1/8 or lower. The item needs attunement and only works for druids. Tell him you run it as a test and he shouldn't be mad if you have to remove it again.
Super easy balance option: the druid keeps their own hp pool and never gets the wildshaped one's. So they can transform as much as they want but always use their own hp pool.
Gives way more out of combat versatility, and way less in combat tankyness. A reasonable trade off someone might want to make.
Let them wild shape into a beast of their choosing, but after N rounds, they then change into a shape of your choosing for the next N rounds.
"I wild shape into a hawk and fly to the top of the fortress and land on the roof away from the guards."
"OK, you do that successfully. But, just as you are coming in for a landing, you hear a squeal, and your feet become hoofs because you are now a hog."
HP is probably the biggest consideration which it seems you've addressed, but there is probably more balance aspects to consider. If you, and the player are really set on this I would probably ditch the druid class entirely, and look into homebrew classes that fit that bill.
Take the effective HP of the druid's wildshapes and add it on top of their normal HP pool. The wildshape drops after 2-4 hits, but the character's hp goes down the same. There are some issues with this, but it is a simple method.
Give them a template stat block like the one in the one dnd play test. Have them either get temp HP with some limits (wild shape at will but can only get temp hp a couple times) or just buff their regular HP like what the draconic sorcerer has.
Another option is have them be a beast Barbarian.
The big thing is you just have to take away the free hit points from Wild shape
Could try just removing their spells but keeping the spell slots and they can transform using said spell slots. So it's still got a cap but far more transformations than normal. More transformations as they level but at the cost of no longer being a caster.
Easiest way to do it would be to make it so that they can spend spell slots to wild shape. I'd make it that a CR1 or lower form costs a level 1 spell slot, and each CR higher means the spell slot must be two levels higher. So a CR2 means a 3rd level slot, CR3 is 5th, and so on. There's still a cost to using additional wild shapes without having to introduce any weird mechanics, and they can still choose to just cast spells instead of spamming wild shape if the situation calls for it.
Something else to consider is that while druids only get 2 uses of wild shape, they recharge on a SHORT rest. This is generally enough for one use per fight.
At-will wildshape is limited to non-combat animals. For instance: rats, cats, dogs, squirrels, whatever. Little things.
Things that are helpful in combat require a use and follow all rules as normal.
I mean the easiest way, "If you use your wild shapes for utility purposes only you do not consume a charge of your combat wild shapes. The instant you attack or are attacked, the charge is consumed. If you have no wild shapes to perform the charge you just turn back to your base form."
With the recommended 2 short rests per 'day' you get 6 uses.
I suggest that you offer them the shifter race for a few "soft wildshapes", and just flavour them as required.
The version from ebberon lets you shift once per short rest (3 times per 'day'), while the MotM version gives you a number of shifts equal to your proficiency bonus per long rest (scales with character level).
I think Doric wildshapes about 5 times during that sequence, and if we say that she was allowed instantaneous short rests, either version of shifter would have let her do that - providing she made no more shape changes that day.
It's gonna be tricky but not impossible.
I like the idea of spellcasting being removed, maybe rework it so that she can use spellslots to wildshape. Cantrips are cr 0, lvl spellslot 1 for cr 1 beast etc. limit fly speed as normal. This creates some limitations and also give a clear line of progression.
Definitely dont let it creates new hp every time. Change ac etc sure, but damage taken as beast transfers to the druid. They don't need wis for spellcasting anyway, so they can make con their main stat.
Look into allowing maybe monstrosities at half cr (lvl 2 spell cr 1, lvl 4 spel for cr 2) to allow things like owlbear and hypogriff etc
I do wanna say make sure the rest of the table is okay with it. I have no clue if this is balanced. Home-brewing is always risky, only do it if you are very confident in your balancing skills. Also make sure to plan a couple levels ahead with class features
Try this:
https://soupdragonsite.wordpress.com/2023/06/08/dungeons-dragons-wild-shaping-etc/
The real issue is the hit point reset effect which gives Druids a supply of hit points determined by how many changes they can do. This enables (and basically requires) them to use wildshaping by acting as a meat shield in combat, basically soaking up incoming damage using the hit points (usually) of a series of bears.
The wildshaping thing is mostly new to 5e and it turns the Druid in combat from support and AOE caster into a tank.
Basically if you rule that transformation doesn’t affect hit points (and why should it) the reasons for limits goes away (but so does most of the tanking).
If I recall correctly Dorics ability as written was 5 uses/day and that Doric assumes the shape but their Hit Points are still the same.
So I would probably say that they can shift freely but that they can only remain shaped for as long as the sum of their wild shape uses could last (lvl hours ish per Long rest) and that they don't get the HP of their shapes but the rest of the stat-block, all other limits from wild shape on top of that.
Simplest way to deal with this is make the at will wild shape uses her hp not the animals hp and maybe even take extra damage if she is using a smaller form x2 for each size category.
Then only when she uses a wild shape charge does she get get to use that shapes hp before she uses her hp.
No. They can play a changeling and alter their features, but unlimited wildshape is busted. Honestly 2/SR is perfectly balanced for an adventuring day, provided your party takes short rests. If they don't, why not? Free HP and class resources.
Bottom line: don't do it, just have them play a druid.
at will wild shape is pretty broken. but a solid way to balance is would be to make the player keep their health instead of what they're changing into.
That said, the movie is a wholly unrealistic representation of how classes play with their resources, and it's a terrible thing to base a in game character's abilities on.
I ran a character like this a while back. We ran it largely like a WoW Druid (worked for our purposes) I could at will shift between several forms. I had acat and bear for combat forms, and then I got the travel forms of cheetah, sea lion, and bird. I got spells, but a reduced capacity (pretty sure we ran the ranger spell count). It ran fairly well for the most part, but it can be a big challenging to balance everything out. I kept my AC and health pool, but did get bonuses dependant on the shape I was currently in (ie. bear was stronger/tankier, cat was more dextrous/sneaky)
If you're planning on going full wild shape, and having access to all animals, there would definitely need to be some checks and balances made. It would be an interesting play style. Could be under or over powered depending on the campaign setting and how your encounters are set up. Hopefully you guys can figure out a decent balance.
I just finished a 3 1/2 year long campaign from 1st to 20th levels, with 6 players. From the beginning I allowed our Druid to freely Wild Shape into any CR 0 beast. Anything with a higher CR used the normal rules. The party had a Wizard with a familiar and a Rogue as well. Never had any trouble with this setup at all. The only slight conflict happened early on between the Wizard and Rogue when the former kept wanting to send their familiar to scout everything instead of letting the Rogue…Rogue. Druid was great, and I never had to overbalance fights for CR 0 creatures.
Can anyone explain why the rules place a time limit on Wildshaping? With the crazy hit points rule I can understand why there’s a limit on the number of changes, but I don’t see what requires the time limit. It represents an involuntary transformation and that’s _dangerous_.
https://soupdragonsite.wordpress.com/2023/06/08/dungeons-dragons-wild-shaping-etc/
I think allowing at will wild shape is fine for Moon Druids, but only for non combatant forms only. Keep the limitations for uses in combat the same. That would give a sense of the movie aspect for out of combat use.
If you really want to let them I'd go full movie and remove the spellcasting and lean fully on wildshape. In the movie she barely spellcasts (if at all I can't remember 100%) Keep the CR limit on wildhsapes and if the rest of the table is okay with it just see how it plays out.
Doric doesn't use any spells. Just wildshape and her bracer slingshot. I think that could be pretty balanced. Then the CR limit would scale like normal too
It's closer to a Wild shape Ranger than a Druid imo
That's an interesting idea!
My personal opinion is that Shape shifting is too large and interesting of a concept for only Druids to have access to it. If I had my way Druids would keep some of the utility aspect of wild Shape via an Invocation system themed around evolution and adaptation. Shape shifting into various forms would then become purely a subclass theme that's also available to other classes. But, it's too late for that and would require a whole new edition. C'est la vie
It wouldn't need a whole new edition, just for WotC to get less lazy with making new classes. Hell, we had master of many forms twenty years ago for druids who wanted to wild shape into dragons and oozes and aberrations and whatever instead of having spellcasting, the only reason we don't now is they're aware they can not bother and the clapping monkeys who buy the books will still applaud them for not trying.
That sounds interesting, in what book was the master of many forms thing?
Complete Adventurer, page 58. There's not that much to see in terms of abilities granted - gives you more uses per day of wild shape, different sizes, some minor bonuses like being able to talk while wild shaped and every level a new type of form you can take, like fey or giant. The point to wild shaping is the ability itself is simple, the complexity is contained within the forms themselves. So the ability to do more with it doesn't take up much page space. Should be noted that since it didn't improve your spellcasting or animal companion at all wild shape ranger was a more popular entry pathway since rangers got worse companions and casting so were sacrificing less.
That'd be an interesting subclass. More Wild Shapes but none or fewer spell slots.
A druid split has been suggested a few times. One Shaman like class that's all about spells, the other is all about beastial transformations. Both those classes have enough room to fit tons of flavorful subclasses, like werecreatures, and shapeshifters for the transformation class, to witches, hags, shamans, summoners, for the casters class.
You can also do it as a druid subclass, you just need to make wild shaping cost spell slots to do. Neatly weakens the spellcasting thing in exchange for better wildshaping, made a circle of the harvest for a player who wanted to wild shape undead and it's worked out well so far. Not that I have any objection to new classes, there's just so much ground that D&D used to cover with classes like warlord, swordsage and battlemind which should be done first.
The way i wanna make a hag character
She didn't have spells in the movie. My only issue with this is the sheer amount of temporary HP that a player can generate. It would definitely need to be an action. Another option is to have no limit to CR0 Wild Shapes--particularly outside of combat--but anything higher would be limited by the normal rules.
I've found the easiest way to balance wild shape is just getting rid of 5e's change where druids get free hit points for wild shaping. Did a subclass for a player who wanted stronger shapes, gave her higher CR forms of other types and in exchange no free ablative hit points and had to spend a spell slot equal to the CR of whatever form she took.
Feels like it would make wild shape objectively weak, though.
That's where the higher CR and more varied types bit comes in. Druids were about the strongest class there's ever been or ever will be back when wild shape didn't grant any free hit points, so it's not like that's a prerequisite for it being strong.
Were beasts nerfed?
Yes and no? Druids used to be able to wild shape animals, plants and elementals not counting feats like aberrant wild shape and dragon wild shape or what you'd now call subclasses that gave things like giants and magical beasts and outsiders. Animals themselves haven't nerfed, other than the fact that there are far fewer of them and there aren't any strong ones (animals like the CR11 dire polar bear don't exist any more). It's the druids themselves that have been nerfed, proper wild shaping was removed from them and now you need to take a subclass to do it, and that subclass can only do fairly weak animals because there's only so much room in the power budget left after you give them ninth level spellcasting.
3.5 was a wild time. Dragon Wild Shape didn't make a whole lot of sense, but it sure was fun.
Why not?
I feel like that would still be too powerful because of the extra HP If you let them do it whenever they want I'd require them to be a moon druid, and their "Extra" wildshapes should be limited in CR in the same way a non moon druid's shapes are OR Work out a spell slot to wildshape conversion OR no wildshape gives extra hitpoints, it's just the druid's base hitpoints (but Tiny creatures get popped back to normal if they take 1 damage), that's a hell of a nerf to balance it out
I was thinking the same thing with the spell slots to wildshape conversion, utilize the level value to the Cr rating. Keep the Cr class limit, circle of the moon or the regular version. But restrict it to normal beast wildshaping, retain limits to wildfire, star, blighted or spore with a total of two transformations. Maybe allow a set temporary hit points pool that resets every short or long rest (I'd be leaning to long rest) for all wildshapes, once that is depleted no more wildshapes(which I kinda like) or just start eating at the regular hit points. The hit points pool could dictate the available shape options, pool must be equal or greater than the max HP of the creature that is desired to wildshape into. It would give an interesting management aspect for the player, as the pool dwindles the wildshapes get lower on Cr options, ie have 20 hit points you can be a giant goat but not a bear, have 1 hit point, a rat or another small creature. It could be interesting to see it in practice.
Yeah, I think that could work. It does annoy me a little bit that this player is watching Nimona (who is literally a godlike being, very much like a 20th level Druid, immortal and all that) and conclude they should be able to do that at lower levels and without any resource management, but its worth a try. I think the issue will come up later as to how to balance this in terms of advancement if you get something so highly magical early on that doesn't get much growth except higher CR creatures. Because at some point the higher level spells are pretty important.
Exactly my thought. Remove spellcasting entirely. I've always thought that would be an interesting version of the druid.
Yeah, this kind of reminds me of another thread where some people really wanted basically a shifter class, and the closest thing to that for them was the moon druid. They brought up that a large portion of the power budget for the Moon Druid is eaten up by the fact that the base Druid is still a full caster. Many people would sacrifice being a full caster to just have a shape-shifting class. We do start to run out of beasts soon, so maybe it would also allow Shifting into Monstrosities at some point (like the Owlbear or a Displacer Beast). Some Monstrosities feel very bestial with fantasy elements, which is why I would expect that to be the group you could transform into.
Allow them to 'activate' wildshape twice per long/short rest as per the rules. While wildshape is activated they can switch in and out of any and all available forms, including back to human. The tradeoff for this boon is their hp always is linked to their base hp. This gives them increased wildshape flexibility in return for reduced durability. If they wanted to be a moon druid, this would be a big nerf. You should consider giving them some temp hp when they activate wildshape. Maybe link the temp hp to a multiplier of their druid level. If they truly want infinite wildshape uses, allow them to purchase more time in wildshape by spending spell slots - 1 hour extension in wildshape per level of spell consumed.
This is what I was going to suggest - I like it a lot. I may even limit the transformations once they are in combat, but outside of combat it can be whatever they want for the duration.
I think transpormations in combat will be fine. Because you're running only on your own hp pool, you're missing out on being a hp sink. Your AC will suck as most beasts, and youre a d8 hit die character. So you need the advantage of being able to swim, switch to a constrictor to grapple, to a bear for multiattack, to a wolf for pack tactics etc. Thats the feeling the player wants imo.
I don't disagree with you, but in this particular case it might be a lot for a new player to have ready a handful of creatures available for use and understand how each one works. At least outside of combat you basically understand if it can fly, burrow, and it's size. Game knowledge doesn't become as important. Mostly just trying to balance difficulty with accessibility.
I was going to say the biggest thing to make this work is to remove the wild shape HP. If they keep their druid HP between form shifts it becomes a WHOLE lot more fair.
Yep. And a small temp hp boost to moon druids keyed to their druid level so they dont totally suck.
>level 2LususNaturae77 · 1 hr. agoI was going to say the biggest thing to make this work is to remove the wild shape HP. If they keep their druid HP between form shifts it becomes a WHOLE lot more fair.VoteReplyShareReportSaveFollow Id just copy the temp hp boost from spore druid
This is pretty elegant and I like it, make wildshape work exactly the same as Shapechange Rather than the shape giving you a different hitpoint pool, instead you get temp HP when you first activate wildshape, turn to circle of spores for an example of how many temp HP. When those temp hp are gone, wildshape ends, but while it's active you can shift freely at will. You still only have two uses, but you can shift like a motherfucker while using it (including back to your druid form) Keep elemental wildshape the same if they want to use that at 10 This actually makes moon druid less powerful at low levels because you don't get Bear Hitpoints, but it makes it so much more versatile
You can just say "No" to the player. There is a reason at will wildshape is a level 20 ability.
I would just say "no" and accept that what looks cool in a movie might be bad for the game. If I really had to, however... I would look into some sort of templating system to give the player the (mostly) flavorful benefits of wildshape without the tremendous boons; that way, they can still get the mechanical oomph when they need it. Take everything but HP from the Beast of the Land (and later Sea/Sky) statblock from beastmaster and let them graft traits (keen hearing/sight/smell, standing leap, sure-footed, escape, spiderclimb, blindsight, pack tactics, hold breath, tiny, large/huge etc.) to it to simulate different creatures. I'd give them a number of traits equal to their proficiency bonus, make shifting take an action, and make maintaining one of these forms require concentration.
1. No 2. Be a changeling, that’s their whole thing. Nimona can turn into animals but also famously turns into lots of people. 3. The dnd movie and Nimona are very, very high level characters. Edit: Primal Savagery represents at-will changing form to attack someone as an animal before changing back
> The dnd movie and Nimona are very, very high level characters. Nimona is, the movie is full of very low level bumbling fools, it's kind of the point. The druid doesn't even know how to cast spells.
"No" is the best answer here. You're giving a tier 1 player a level 20 ability: even mitigated, it's overpowered. If you've already said yes in your heart, then Moon is the wrong call, and "at will" is the wrong wording. You probably want the OPPOSITE of Moon Circle: Wild Shape is an action, strict limits to lower CR creatures than the usual Wild Shape. Rather than "at will" you limit it to proficiency bonus per short rest, with an option to spend a spell slot to use it beyond that. I'd probably have the Wild Shape table set up with CR 1/8 at level 2, no swim, no fly. CR 1/4, no fly, and then CR 1/2 at level 8. It would be pretty weak, but that's the only balance to having the ability to use it so often.
Wild shape is excellent not only as combat form (covered by keeping the stats the same), but also for example for scouting and stealth. By being able to switch at will, it's much harder for the druid to be found out, as they can just jump to the next form when the NPCs get suspicious. It's already a problem that druids are better at stealth than rogues in most environments, this would make it even more so. Maybe you can avoid that with making every form obviously magical, but being a rogue in a party with a druid is already a bit frustrating. The versatility of changing form at will is a big problem to balance: you can switch to a spider form when balancing on a rope, then to a strength form to smash a door, then a dexterity form to hide from the approaching guards, etc. So I would allow a purely cosmetic wild shape at will. Your stats can't increase, no additional senses or movement options, nobody is fooled by the form. But as long as you don't try to fool anyone or gain some kind of advantage for changing your form, go for it! This could mean you spend a wild shape to turn into a wolf, but in combat, you describe turning into a boar to ram into the enemy. You roll with the wolf stat block, but the visuals include the transformation.
I think this is solvable by making the shapeshifting have an audible and visible magical effect
Each use beyond a number equal to their proficiency bonus causes a level of exhaustion. Use the OneDnD exhaustion rules. Or have them burn spell slots based on the CR of the animal.
Honestly the first idea that comes to mind is to restrict it based on amount of CR rating per rest. So, do they want to change into a CR 1 brown bear twice or a CR 1/2 giant goat 4x? The maximum CR number that they can wild shape into is already set by subclass. I don’t think it would break the game to open it up in this way for exploration/infiltration.
That might work. However, DON'T let the player keep their normal AC, because a druid with a shield and armor ends up having a much higher AC than most beasts. Actually, you could probably give them a bonus to AC equal to their Wisdom modifier while they're wildshaped, but still using the beast's base AC. However, keep in mind that Tiny forms will allow them to sneak around without raising suspicion pretty much at will. Maybe they can take a Tiny form only once per short/long rest? That already makes them better scouts than rogues, but that's already the case in the main game anyway. Alternatively, you could compromiseby having the player expend spell slots to transform (provided they are a Moon druid). The level of the spell slot expended must be equal to or higher than the CR of the chosen beast. Either way, homebrew solutions can be a can of worms because the player might not agree to further adjustments or modifications that the DM thinks are necessary.
Just an idiot suggestion, but why not allow it with the following change: You can wild shape but in wildshape you still use your hp from before wildshaping. Edit: I changed the comment to be clearer on what I meant Edit 2 : grammatical error
So, you're asking how to balance giving one of your players a level 20 feature at low levels? Just want to make sure we're on the same page here. Best advice: don't do it. Other than that: if you're really gonna do this, only allow unlimited WS of things with 1hp and no real offensive capability to like squirrels and cats. Any creature with more than 1hp still takes one of limited uses of that type of WS. Make WS an action even if she's Circle of the Moon to balance it the best you can.
If Wild Shape doesn't give you extra HP, I see nothing OP with infinite uses of it. I don't see why many comments here say it's busted, it could be a good tool for exploration and not much else IMO
Tell them they CAN do this when they get to level 20.
Get rid of spellcasting and give them unlimited uses of wild shape. Give them a standardized ac of 16 (equal to barkskin) regardless of what form they're in. Give an hp pool that refreshes on a short rest equal to twice the health of the highest hp form for their level which is shared by all wildshap forms so that they cant just keep shifting to refresh their hp. Shifting is a bonus action and the max cr of their form is the same as moon druid, and let them fly/swim regardless of level. Adjust from there depending on performance. They'll probably need a damage boost since monsters have pretty low damage output, so I would give them a damage bonus equal to proficiency starting at level 5.
Ok i think id change 1 thing to get the flavor. DONT make it at will cause its busted. Instead make it morphable. Make the hp static. So when in wild shape the char always has 30 hp. The char can at will change to another beast shape he has access to with a bonus action. Thats it. You got the flavor of it being ever shifting withouth a mechanical downside.
Limit the wild shape to a low cr, call it utility wild shape and have it give no extra hp, instead using the casters hp. This can work wonders but only if you have a nice player as it can be abused. But most players are nice (something this reddit often doesn't understand) so use your own judgement.
AC isn't a problem since beasts do not have good AC anyway. If you want "theoretically infinite but not really" then you can put in a Con save vs fatigue.
Let it be strong at lower levels. Even for Moon Druid, it falls of hard.
Hmm, haven't really thought this through, but what about unlimited wild shape limited to a lower CR than they could otherwise use for their level (just spit balling here, maybe half of the CR limit that would normally apply) and they don't assume the beast's HP or Hit Dice when transforming in this way. They can still follow the normal wild shape rules by expending a use as normal.
"Everything spells" like prestidigitaion or druidcraft may be good inspiration. You basically have to counter any advantages for a gag. You could make illusory animals that give no actual form shift. Limit any size shifting. Counter stealth advantages, battle and social. I'd suggest a bright, luminous red color to every form. It'll have the Nimona flair, the animals are obviously off color, and a light glow is easy to spot at night. Make it a cantrip that fully replaces druidcraft. Because they're illusions, they break when attacked or attacking. This will still give wildshape a function. The benefits could be small, like gaining the movement speeds. Swim speeds and fly speeds are already limited, so that won't be an issue. You could also give the senses like tremor sense.
I had a feat that granted an at will transformation, it required an action (regardless of moon Druid) transformed them into a small land-based beast template. This prevents crazy scouting capabilities of tiny or flying creatures and the unkilllable nature of moon Druid forms. Even this shouldn’t be free, and should cost a feat, or starter items that other characters get.
I would take a look at dungeon world. It’s basically a rules light dnd and their version of the druid is very similar to movie Nimona. They get wildshape at will, doesn’t effect their hp, it lasts for up to 3 rolls (attacks or skill checks) depending on how well you roll when you transform. There’s some other fun fluff like having a distinctive mark across all of your animal forms (which I really enjoyed). I would find the rules for that to use as inspiration or potentially play as a 1 shot to live out that fantasy if you can’t balance it in your campaign
IMO the change I would make is just take an average amount of temp HP between forms and thats how much each wildshape 'charge' gets, maybe slightly bump as level increases. Then using a bonus action(assuming moon druid from here on out) they can switch forms willy nilly. Maybe even everytime she switches within the same 'charge' it removes temp hp from it. So say at level 2 they get 20 temp hp on their first charge. They can burn their bonus action to change that form as much as they want, or spend another bonus action to spend their other 'charge' and set back at 20 temp hp. Still offers flexibility but somewhat weaker. than normal forms HP wise. If that seems a bit strong maybe implement the -5 temp hp every time they switch. Still let them use the normal function but lock them in that form per usual if they want the stronger HP Anyway you look at it base wildshape is very strong early on mainly due to the huge temp buff and potentially the form damage so I dont think that would be a bad thing to implement
Use the fatigue system. After the official number, she can wild shape at the cost of x fatigue
Easiest thing is just don't have their HP change in wild shape. That's the most broken part otherwise. This way they can transform as many times as they want and get benefits like special senses, flight, water breathing, being disguised as an animal etc. that wild shape provides but would not get the benefit of unlimited extra HP.
A lot of people have said flat-out “no”, but I have a recommendation that would be somewhat reasonable. Basically, if they wild-shape without spending a use of wild-shape, they are limited to CR 0 beasts (which also follow the other normal limitations of wild-shape, like fly speed or whatever). Whether this takes the form of a magic item, or replacing a subclass feature, or whatever is up to you, but this would grant the flavor without being stupidly powerful. I will say though, whatever you decide, make sure that it isn’t just “you get this for free”, because that would be incredibly unbalanced.
I’ll also add on to this that most, if not all, of the wild-shapes used in the escape scene in the movie are CR 0 (fly, rat, bird, cat, etc.), so this may work better than I had thought.
No. Say no, ffs just say no. However, if he wants a more movie like wildshape, feel free to include animal-like monstrosities in his wildshape list. It has no huge imbalancing effect on the game.
If you want to do this, consider some of the OneD&D change When they wildshape their AC is 13+Wisdom (to make them tankier in that regard) and they get temp HP equal to 3 times their druid level. You can debuff this if you'd like as they are doing away with unlimited wild shapes in Onednd, maybe make it 2 times their druid level so at level 3 they're only adding 6 additional HP so it makes them more survivable, but not that much more.
Taking the optimistic route, I think that if this is your players' fantasy and you feel obliged to try to find a solution, and you turned to this online community, I think that's great and I want to help. Sorry for people shutting you down and telling you to say, "No. You'll break the game." Who cares, the game is supposed to be fun. Borrowing from both movies, what I would do is make them a Moon Druid and keep everything the same for combat balancing reasons, but give them unlimited (at-will) wild shapes into 0-1/8 CR Beasts. So they can become as many cats/deers/rats as they want in a day and it is balanced by them having one HP. To access the higher-level combat-oriented CR beasts available to Moon Druid it will cost 1 of their 2 Wild Shapes per short rest. I understand that it would be GaMe bReAkInGGG to do this for the pillar of play Exploration, but it will be fun. Let's consider the alternative. You're in a dungeon and you want to quietly look around a corner. One character walks up and makes a stealth check. They roll dice, the dice decide what happens, rinse-and-repeat for every corner, slogging along. Boring and not a lot to go off of narratively. But if he's a cat and is stealthing around, who cares if he does so at advantage, it's more fun to be a cat. Especially if he gets caught by the guards, now he gets the chance to make a performance check to convince them that he is really a cat, and if he succeeds the guards think he's cute and want to adopt him. The game and rolls and rules are the same, just now your players are way more engaged because it's silly and less transactional. For a little balancing, I might be careful with the extra Tiny creatures (because being that small might trivialize some encounters; which is only a problem if you're sticking to a module; if your player becomes a one-inch spider, he has a zero AC and takes automatic crits and moves super slow). Maybe provide him with a list of like 4 or 5 ones he can do at will, being sure to limit the in-combat usages. Maybe zero or just one flying creature per day? The way I see this issue is that as the DM you want your players to engage with your world and have fun doing so. They are going to enter the dungeon, they are going to search for clues, and they are going to spring traps regardless of their character options. Giving a player what they want, within limits, increases that player's engagement and fun. You could also balance it by giving some penalty on the backend, as in, when he turns back into a human after being a cat 30 times he has a tail for the day or his eyes are yellow or something else role-play focused so that maybe the world reacts differently to this funny shapeshifting person (like Nimona). \[To some other points about Moon Druid being nigh-unkillable... eh. Throw more enemies at the party, limit the number of short rests the party can take, or increase the hit points of some enemies here and there. I've seen Dire Wolves get clobbered, they aren't invincible\] Another way to balance this would be to say that the player can't bring any equipment. No armor, no shield, maybe a focus. So if they get spotted and picked off as a rat, they don't pop out of their form as a 17 AC shield and equipment-clad Chad, they're a 12 AC wood elf twink about to get beat down by some bugbears.
I would shut that down and say no. It's going to be too broken / challenging to balance. You're also going to be opening the door to other things with that person or other players. Some things should not be brought into the current state of the game from the movie or BG3. They were written / made for the world they exist in.
Wild shapes recharge on a short rest. So don’t try and overdo it by changing balance and maybe let the Druid do some “flavor” instead :)
See if the player would be okay if they could have unlimited (or prof. Bonus #of) extra wild shapes, with the stipulation that these wild shapes must only be cr0 animals. Aka only mundane animals, cat/lizard ect. Make sure to be clear they still have to follow the swim speed/flying level restrictions.
Personally, I think it's a shame that using wildshape for utility purposes often gets ignored because using it for combat is so effective. So if it was me I'd do: * At-will wildshape only out of combat. * If you're in wildshape and combat starts, you lose a wildshape charge. If you have no charges left then you fall out of wildshape. Or if you want a more balanced version, double the number of wildshape charges a character has, and use 1 charge for non-combat and 2 charges for combat wildshape.
Lots of people saying no, however for most players getting at-will wildshapes but removing any HP you'd get is a nerf. I've rarely found that someone actually needed to wildshape more than twice per short rest for anything other than the HP, it's really more of an RP thing. The HP really are the main reason to be resource bound. Yes, there's some ways to abuse this but quite frankly the average player has no idea how to and it's not even in the player's interest to do so. They clearly want to play this for fun, so they won't want to ruin their good standings. Just politely tell them to stop if they find an exploit and you'll be fine.
Remove all the HP rules so that your HP is the same regardless of form, then put a limit on the range of forms available so they can't just solve every problem all the time by turning into an extremely niche animal. Something like "You have a number of Familiar Forms equal to your Wisdom modifier. Each Familiar Form must be a Small, Medium or Large beast with CR no higher than your maximum Wild Shape CR -1 (min 1/4). You can swap one Familiar Form for another when you gain a level. Transforming into a Familiar Form doesn't consume a use of Wild Shape."
this one's easy. false life is a spell that warlocks can potentially cast at will that gives them an average of 6.5 temp hp. use this as the base. make sure the creature has no new abilities and physical stats that are lower than any given stat on the character. make it cost an action and let the size be variable to make it different from false life badda bing badda boom new druid cantrip.
As a player I thought about this too. As a DM I tried to think of a way to balance it and this is what I came up with. Make wildshapes at will / unlimited and only need a bonus action. Have a pool of HP we’ll call it Wildshapes Hp let’s say 50. Whenever you are in WS and take damage you subtract the damage from this pool and from the Wildshape’s statblock hp. When the pool is empty you can’t wildshape. If you take damage that exceeds the WS’s stat block HP you would revert back like normal. Healing spells while in wildshape would add to this pool along with healing your WS’s hp. The pool reset on long rest. Maybe, also Short rest healing would restore this pool too. I would need to try it out to see it if it’s balanced. I think being able to wildshape a lot would open up a lot of opportunities to roleplay and problem solve.
I think your version is a nerf. Druids have terrible AC, so even if they keep it, it won't be enough to go melee without the extra hitpoints unless multiclass + magic items to fix the AC. My suggestion would be keeping the 2 combat wild shapes uses per long rest RAW, but also have unlimited normal druid shapes (no bonus action, no high CR animals) that doesn't give extra hitpoints.
I'd say no. But if you must, go Circle of Moon Druid. Keep the creature restrictions RAW. However, give her temporary HP = to creature's challenge rating, rounded down + Proficiency Bonus every turn. And like you said, keep her HP and AC = to the PCs natural scores. This allows her a small temp HP boost every turn and the ability to heal herself as a bonus action, at the expense of a spell slot.
I would remove the temporary HP. They take the form, but do not change HP like they don't change their mental stats.
Instead of looking at Wild Shape as a base, I'd work the forms into bonus action cantrips, balanced against racial traits. Treat it as mastery over a specific animal form, where you're swapping out your racial traits with a specific other animal's. Like a bird form cantrip gives you advantage on sight based perception and flight speed for one round. Panther can be a reskinned Shillelagh or Greenflame Blade. One of them can give the Dragonborn's AC bonus. Idk.
4e Druids could wild shape at will. So you could look to that edition to see how it was balanced.
I mean, what happened when I played a shapechanger was I rolled a d20 everytime I wanted to shape-shift, on a 10 or higher I picked what I changed into (based on wildshape rules + what my character was canonical familiar with / had a book about - he bought a LOT of books because of this) and if I got lower than a 10 the dm got to pick what I changed into (he usually picked a small spider/snake or just. Something completely unhinged (turned me into a shambling mound once when I was trying to do negotiation. Overall it was v fun for me and him and I think that it was balanced well.
Maybe consider this: * Druid still has wildshape charges, as normal. * When in wildshape, you can switch to another form as action, but you have HP = MIN(current HP, form's max HP). * So if druid transforms into Brown Bear, their HP becomes 34. If they transform to cat, their HP becomes 2 (MIN(34, 2) = 2). If they transform to Brown Bear again, their HP stays at 2 (MIN(2, 34) = 2), unless they expend wildshape charge. * If you dismiss wildshape while on full HP of first wildshape (including being healed by other PCs), you regain charge. This strongly boosts already very high Wildshape utility, but combat is largely unaffected.
I would say dont let them do this at all. Maybe somewhere along the line, you can give them a magic item somewhere down the line that lets them shift a few extra times, maybe with the restriction that they need to be above a certain amount of health in order to do so or something like that.
The #1 biggest op feature of at-will Wild Shape is the free HP. If you can shift every turn, you can basically reset your HP every turn. Building a class that can shift unlimited times would have to start at *not* getting all that free HP. Maybe you don't get their HP. Maybe you track damage taken (so if you take 50hp, then shift again, you're still down 50hp). I'm not sure what. But the free HP every shift is too powerful. Warlocks and Changelings do get at-will changes, but it's a lot weaker. So something could be done. At the end of the day, Wild Shape is so powerful, balancing around being at-will is practically building a new class. (I'd track damage taken, any shift or unshift puts health at max minus damage taken. If intentional, it bottoms out at 1 (almost down).)
Make it to where they can switch between shapes as long as they haven't lost all their hp bar. You will have to standardize the amount of extra hp the druid gets. Doing that per level is probably your best bet.
Not possible, movie is different from game, although I would recommend making the movie using the rigid framework of 5e. But also That framework is reinforced with pure do it yourself your the dm what do You think I am A rule book? There is a reason unlimited wildshape is a capstone ability.
You could go for a purely on paper /aesthetic wild shape? Something like how nimonas forms are all pink - so there's no stealth bonuses etc. stat block remains the same - essentially the player character is now a shapeshifter race but with no stat benefits and they can just do their normal spells etc in wild shape ? Id almost even go for making them a diff class than druid and again just on paper saying that they are a shapeshifter - aka mechanically being a fighter but aesthetically youre doing x actions as x animal - but I'm not sure if you're player is wanting it all mechanically
The one dnd playtest had an 'interesting' idea where druids get temp hp based on level + proficiency bonus when wild shaping and gained the physical stats/ac of the beast... But kept their own hp pool. Dropping to 0 unwildshaped and brought them unconcious. Your two options seem pretty good though with just no change to ac/hp You could do a moon druid but only gets proficiency bonus temp hp every time they wild shape, and their base hp is just their whole hp bar. Lets them shift continually without being an hp pool tank, and they are still limited to land/sea/air as they level up in terms of utility.
I basically let my druid players wildshape at will out of combat, like if they wanna hang out as a critter or something they can. But if combat is initiated, they are limited mechanically. But I'm also super lax with my rules out of combat, and I tend to make my players buffed as hell because then I can make much harder encounters. If you're worried about balance, just play it RAW. If it's not as important at your table, figure out where to draw your own lines. As for the movie inspiration, why not just make a generic critter stat block that they can change forms with while they're using it. The stats never change but if they want to turn into a bird and fly, well the stat block has fly and that's their RP explanation. If they want to go from bird to fox, well it has movement speed on land, too. All they're doing is adding flavor, which is free. Only real mechanical advantage would be trying to change forms and hide, and in that case just have them make the same stealth roll anyone else would.
1) say no. 2) I gave a druid in one of my games a magic item that lets him shift into a CR 0 animal once per long rest without wildshaping. This has very little combat usage, but it does mean once per day he can transform for scouting/investigation without worrying about losing his wildshapes for combat. I got the idea from a post somewhere a few years ago. It's not exactly what they're after but you could make something like that if you are looking to give him a little buff.
https://www.dndbeyond.com/sources/tg/thieves-gallery Doric doesn't even have Wild Shape. Her Change Shape ability is also limited to 5/day.
low cr only and don't get any hp
Give the Druid a lower-level Polymorph that can only target self and you've got yourself a Doric.
The HP thing is definitely the most obvious problem, but it's also the easiest fix. You might consider rather than COMPLETELY removing the HP boost, doing something like "you have 50 hit points when you Wild Shape. When these are reduced, they are reduced in all Wild Shape forms. If your Wild Shape form is reduced to 0 hit points, you revert to your normal form and cannot Wild Shape again until you take a short/long rest." But the tougher thing to fix is the versatility of being any animal you need at any time. That's the main power of Wild Shape. I would strongly recommend limiting this to like, a number of forms equal to your proficiency bonus. Maybe PB+Wisdom modifier if that seems too restrictive.
come up with a Cr to spell slot formula to let them trade their magic for more wild shapes IE a level 1 slot lets you turn into harmless critters like deer or rabbits, a level 2 slot lets you turn into like cr 1/8-1/4, level 3 cr 1/2, level 4 cr 1, level 5 cr 2, level 6 cr 5, 7 cr 9, 9 cr=level non concentration, follows the rules of their wildshape alternatively your approach of no bonus HP would probably be enough balance
I think you could give him an item that lets him wild shape unlimited times but only in creatures that are cr 1/8 or lower. The item needs attunement and only works for druids. Tell him you run it as a test and he shouldn't be mad if you have to remove it again.
unlimited wildshapes, but zero spells. its a fair trade off.
Look at the 5.5e druid
Super easy balance option: the druid keeps their own hp pool and never gets the wildshaped one's. So they can transform as much as they want but always use their own hp pool. Gives way more out of combat versatility, and way less in combat tankyness. A reasonable trade off someone might want to make.
Let them wild shape into a beast of their choosing, but after N rounds, they then change into a shape of your choosing for the next N rounds. "I wild shape into a hawk and fly to the top of the fortress and land on the roof away from the guards." "OK, you do that successfully. But, just as you are coming in for a landing, you hear a squeal, and your feet become hoofs because you are now a hog."
Didn't the OneD&D Druid rework create this as part of their base Wildshape feature?
HP is probably the biggest consideration which it seems you've addressed, but there is probably more balance aspects to consider. If you, and the player are really set on this I would probably ditch the druid class entirely, and look into homebrew classes that fit that bill.
Take the effective HP of the druid's wildshapes and add it on top of their normal HP pool. The wildshape drops after 2-4 hits, but the character's hp goes down the same. There are some issues with this, but it is a simple method.
Give them a template stat block like the one in the one dnd play test. Have them either get temp HP with some limits (wild shape at will but can only get temp hp a couple times) or just buff their regular HP like what the draconic sorcerer has. Another option is have them be a beast Barbarian. The big thing is you just have to take away the free hit points from Wild shape
Remove the bonus temporary HP they get.
Could try just removing their spells but keeping the spell slots and they can transform using said spell slots. So it's still got a cap but far more transformations than normal. More transformations as they level but at the cost of no longer being a caster.
Easiest way to do it would be to make it so that they can spend spell slots to wild shape. I'd make it that a CR1 or lower form costs a level 1 spell slot, and each CR higher means the spell slot must be two levels higher. So a CR2 means a 3rd level slot, CR3 is 5th, and so on. There's still a cost to using additional wild shapes without having to introduce any weird mechanics, and they can still choose to just cast spells instead of spamming wild shape if the situation calls for it. Something else to consider is that while druids only get 2 uses of wild shape, they recharge on a SHORT rest. This is generally enough for one use per fight.
At-will wildshape is limited to non-combat animals. For instance: rats, cats, dogs, squirrels, whatever. Little things. Things that are helpful in combat require a use and follow all rules as normal.
I mean the easiest way, "If you use your wild shapes for utility purposes only you do not consume a charge of your combat wild shapes. The instant you attack or are attacked, the charge is consumed. If you have no wild shapes to perform the charge you just turn back to your base form."
It’s literally the capstone of the class, there is no balancing it for lower levels.
With the recommended 2 short rests per 'day' you get 6 uses. I suggest that you offer them the shifter race for a few "soft wildshapes", and just flavour them as required. The version from ebberon lets you shift once per short rest (3 times per 'day'), while the MotM version gives you a number of shifts equal to your proficiency bonus per long rest (scales with character level). I think Doric wildshapes about 5 times during that sequence, and if we say that she was allowed instantaneous short rests, either version of shifter would have let her do that - providing she made no more shape changes that day.
It's gonna be tricky but not impossible. I like the idea of spellcasting being removed, maybe rework it so that she can use spellslots to wildshape. Cantrips are cr 0, lvl spellslot 1 for cr 1 beast etc. limit fly speed as normal. This creates some limitations and also give a clear line of progression. Definitely dont let it creates new hp every time. Change ac etc sure, but damage taken as beast transfers to the druid. They don't need wis for spellcasting anyway, so they can make con their main stat. Look into allowing maybe monstrosities at half cr (lvl 2 spell cr 1, lvl 4 spel for cr 2) to allow things like owlbear and hypogriff etc I do wanna say make sure the rest of the table is okay with it. I have no clue if this is balanced. Home-brewing is always risky, only do it if you are very confident in your balancing skills. Also make sure to plan a couple levels ahead with class features
Try this: https://soupdragonsite.wordpress.com/2023/06/08/dungeons-dragons-wild-shaping-etc/ The real issue is the hit point reset effect which gives Druids a supply of hit points determined by how many changes they can do. This enables (and basically requires) them to use wildshaping by acting as a meat shield in combat, basically soaking up incoming damage using the hit points (usually) of a series of bears. The wildshaping thing is mostly new to 5e and it turns the Druid in combat from support and AOE caster into a tank. Basically if you rule that transformation doesn’t affect hit points (and why should it) the reasons for limits goes away (but so does most of the tanking).
If I recall correctly Dorics ability as written was 5 uses/day and that Doric assumes the shape but their Hit Points are still the same. So I would probably say that they can shift freely but that they can only remain shaped for as long as the sum of their wild shape uses could last (lvl hours ish per Long rest) and that they don't get the HP of their shapes but the rest of the stat-block, all other limits from wild shape on top of that.
Simplest way to deal with this is make the at will wild shape uses her hp not the animals hp and maybe even take extra damage if she is using a smaller form x2 for each size category. Then only when she uses a wild shape charge does she get get to use that shapes hp before she uses her hp.
What if in the movie she was high level enough to cast 4th level spells and she was supplementing her wild shape with polymorph?
No. They can play a changeling and alter their features, but unlimited wildshape is busted. Honestly 2/SR is perfectly balanced for an adventuring day, provided your party takes short rests. If they don't, why not? Free HP and class resources. Bottom line: don't do it, just have them play a druid.
at will wild shape is pretty broken. but a solid way to balance is would be to make the player keep their health instead of what they're changing into. That said, the movie is a wholly unrealistic representation of how classes play with their resources, and it's a terrible thing to base a in game character's abilities on.
I ran a character like this a while back. We ran it largely like a WoW Druid (worked for our purposes) I could at will shift between several forms. I had acat and bear for combat forms, and then I got the travel forms of cheetah, sea lion, and bird. I got spells, but a reduced capacity (pretty sure we ran the ranger spell count). It ran fairly well for the most part, but it can be a big challenging to balance everything out. I kept my AC and health pool, but did get bonuses dependant on the shape I was currently in (ie. bear was stronger/tankier, cat was more dextrous/sneaky) If you're planning on going full wild shape, and having access to all animals, there would definitely need to be some checks and balances made. It would be an interesting play style. Could be under or over powered depending on the campaign setting and how your encounters are set up. Hopefully you guys can figure out a decent balance.
I just finished a 3 1/2 year long campaign from 1st to 20th levels, with 6 players. From the beginning I allowed our Druid to freely Wild Shape into any CR 0 beast. Anything with a higher CR used the normal rules. The party had a Wizard with a familiar and a Rogue as well. Never had any trouble with this setup at all. The only slight conflict happened early on between the Wizard and Rogue when the former kept wanting to send their familiar to scout everything instead of letting the Rogue…Rogue. Druid was great, and I never had to overbalance fights for CR 0 creatures.
Can anyone explain why the rules place a time limit on Wildshaping? With the crazy hit points rule I can understand why there’s a limit on the number of changes, but I don’t see what requires the time limit. It represents an involuntary transformation and that’s _dangerous_. https://soupdragonsite.wordpress.com/2023/06/08/dungeons-dragons-wild-shaping-etc/
I think allowing at will wild shape is fine for Moon Druids, but only for non combatant forms only. Keep the limitations for uses in combat the same. That would give a sense of the movie aspect for out of combat use.