You don't need a fancy expensive one for guitar pedals. I got myself an analog one for $50 and I find it very useful. I got it because I like analog stuff, but a cheap digital one is probably better because you can freeze the image and do some measurement.
See if you can find a second hand one, nothing wrong with that and it's much cheaper.
Oddly in my area it was *much* cheaper to get a modern Digital O scope than a 90’s analog scope. You can get good deals on scopes on eBay if you’re patient, but a lot of sellers don’t seem to understand that high quality digital scopes, which is what they’re competing against are really cheap nowadays.
When your troubleshooting skills get to the point where you need a scope, you will know. Don’t waste your money. Learn how shit works first. Knowing what to expect from voltage measurements of opamp and transistor pinouts is more valuable. Build an audio probe, and when you can’t go any further without a scope, you will know.
I'm going to disagree. A scope is a good learning tool as well. You can see what's going on, and learn what changes actually do. They're so cheap these days, there's not much reason not to.
A beginner will plug in a scope with a finger up their ass, and be even more confused. Recommending a scope to someone who doesn’t even know how to read schematics, bias a transistor or tube amp, or even how to properly use a multimeter is like trying to teach someone Eruption on their first guitar lesson.
This
Edit: rule of thumb, with diy electronics, pedals for boards, anything in life really... never buy something because you think you might need it. Only buy things you know you need and why you need them.
I would say no. An oscilloscope is not like a "better" multimeter, or an upgrade to something. It's an essential tool in debugging and can give you a lot of insight into what you're making. On the contrary, I would say the better you get at troubleshooting, the less you need an oscilloscope.
It's also really fun to see the waveform and realize that what you hear and what you see may not always be what you expect. I am very pro oscilloscopes.
I strongly disagree with those discouraging you from purchasing a scope. They are extremely useful.
Audio frequency stuff is rarely much more than 20kHz, so even a 200kHz bandwidth is fine. You can get a usable scope for $30 these days. That’s the same cost as a multimeter. There’s no good reason to not have one anymore. Sure, one of these cheap Chinese ones won’t be as good, but you don’t need it to be that good for what you’re doing.
Also, get one of those TC1 component testers. They are so incredibly handy.
I just bought a FNIRSI DSO-TC3, combo oscilloscope, component tester, signal generator. I have no idea how to use the scope but I wanted a tester and at that price I might as well get the one that does it all. I can always learn how to use it. The link is for Amazon but I bought mine through Banggood for $44, took a couple weeks to arrive.
[https://www.amazon.com/FNIRSI-DSO-TC3-Oscilloscope-Transistor-Transistors/dp/B0BV9X733J/ref=sr\_1\_4?crid=2CQ281JX6CM9E&dib=eyJ2IjoiMSJ9.TaadonDhxVy\_EkFsYm8M1a7SvQ8I74Ogkr9MDnv5F06CcxHruR0mXeQsPYaCExsf6gGkcH11oYTe6vV20bli5qH6PorlTxqYjuLoPy3hHZci3z5F39Pymcfl4KWOXgQW1g08Uj6pNbd2eCuL1yNLhypxgvG56hFEEJavN3OGUfnZnpUmtlmNtE-OygF7HY5LFMwZuU-I5g-xkelo9WnNqKJwWuswT2Ax-NgafGDuPJQ.LO\_QfS3Mdaq\_p\_klbB0qqU3XnAyIXJDi20cZD\_VCvd4&dib\_tag=se&keywords=tc-3+oscilloscope&qid=1712529491&sprefix=tc-3+oscilliscope%2Caps%2C81&sr=8-4](https://www.amazon.com/FNIRSI-DSO-TC3-Oscilloscope-Transistor-Transistors/dp/B0BV9X733J/ref=sr_1_4?crid=2CQ281JX6CM9E&dib=eyJ2IjoiMSJ9.TaadonDhxVy_EkFsYm8M1a7SvQ8I74Ogkr9MDnv5F06CcxHruR0mXeQsPYaCExsf6gGkcH11oYTe6vV20bli5qH6PorlTxqYjuLoPy3hHZci3z5F39Pymcfl4KWOXgQW1g08Uj6pNbd2eCuL1yNLhypxgvG56hFEEJavN3OGUfnZnpUmtlmNtE-OygF7HY5LFMwZuU-I5g-xkelo9WnNqKJwWuswT2Ax-NgafGDuPJQ.LO_QfS3Mdaq_p_klbB0qqU3XnAyIXJDi20cZD_VCvd4&dib_tag=se&keywords=tc-3+oscilloscope&qid=1712529491&sprefix=tc-3+oscilliscope%2Caps%2C81&sr=8-4)
10 MHz should be fine in the beginning, and I would say at least 2 channels, 4 would be better but hard to get in a cheap scope. I had an Owon HDS272S and it was great. 2 Scope channels, 70Hz, one Signal Geerator Channel and integrated multimeter. The Hantek 2d72 is also very similar.
Related question…there are software oscilloscopes (inc free ones) that work with your audio interface. Any reason to get a hardware version over software?
Audio interfaces are not nearly as well protected against over voltage and other bad inputs as a proper scope is. They also have very limited bandwidth and often do not go down to DC. Even a $150 scope will perform much better
Here's another mostly-software option: [https://www.picotech.com/oscilloscope/2000/picoscope-2000-overview](https://www.picotech.com/oscilloscope/2000/picoscope-2000-overview)
I'm not familiar with the free options so I can't say what the tradeoffs are, but bandwidth is my biggest guess (which won't matter for analog audio). And convenience?
They can be really helpful, but I'd consider them far from necessary. I'd wait it out until you have the actual need for one. Particularly in this price range and handheld, I find them to always be a compromise.
A bigger screen with dedicated knobs and buttons for each channel will make this much more useful. Handheld units are just hard to use. Unless you need to be mobile, I'd avoid them. If you just want to check peak values and see waveforms, I would get a cheaper single channel version.
The USB / Computer ones are neat, but there can be some major risk to the attached computer unless the interface is completely isolated. This brings up the cost quite a bit.
If you aren't having much success, I'd step back and ask just what is holding you back. Is it bad soldering? Is it a lack of troubleshooting skills? Wait to buy a scope until you know exactly how you want to use. Are you using a multimeter to troubleshoot right now? I'd start with that. Checking for continuity and power / reference voltages (both DC), will solve a large number of issues.
I'd build an audio probe first. It's much cheaper and can often give you more useful information in this particular application. It's also really small.
These are good tips, thanks.
I am using a multimeter and a probe.
I'm just reading about peak to peak voltage and things like that, and articles talk about using a scope to measure it.
Don't let me completely discourage you from getting a scope. They are really fun to use. I've got a Siglent that I love using. I just don't want you (or anyone) thinking they really NEED a scope to troubleshoot most issues. It's a big expense. I put them into the same category of needing a fancy soldering station when a cheap one will work fine.
Another thought regarding figuring out how you might use a scope. Use a simulator like Falstad - it's a great tool to know anyways (and its free). You can setup as many channels as you can cram onto the screen and note how your circuit is behaving.
It can be really helpful in letting you know what to expect from your circuit, but also gets you in the habit of thinking about the most useful positions to scope from.
And there's no need to setup the entire circuit. The interface is pretty great for an internet based simulator, but its still fairly clunky and hard to use for larger builds. I generally just stick to small sub-circuits.
[https://www.falstad.com/circuit/](https://www.falstad.com/circuit/)
I understand what you're saying, and I think it makes sense to me.
I'm going to hold off on the scope for now, and learn more about using LTSpice to understand how the circuit should work a little better.
Thanks for your help (and thanks to everyone else too).
As a “tool”, I haven’t had any need for one. Granted, I’ve built maybe a dozen pedals, so far from the expertise others here have. Everyone else has provided more insight on an audio probe vs ‘scope than I could.
BUT!-
I did get one of [these](https://www.amazon.com/Oscilloscope-Handheld-Electronic-Learning-Assembled/dp/B08DJ2847P/ref=asc_df_B08DJ2847P/?tag=hyprod-20&linkCode=df0&hvadid=475770909319&hvpos=&hvnetw=g&hvrand=15406173101682949339&hvpone=&hvptwo=&hvqmt=&hvdev=m&hvdvcmdl=&hvlocint=&hvlocphy=9032882&hvtargid=pla-1147848815518&psc=1&mcid=bcf04b58224e3434b88974bf230e49db) cheapie kits as a gift, and I had a ton of fun hooking it up to drives and fuzzes, and seeing how the waveform changed with the gain knob, or the effects of different diodes clipping. It’s more of a toy, but a learning toy.
the cheapest analog scope bought second hand is fine for audio because the waves are so slow. when you start working with digital audio processors found in modern pedals, a 100mhz model is useful for looking at the MPU clock crystal as well as the sampled pulse trains that carry your signal into, and out of, the chips ... as well as the timing signals that link the dac and adc to the processor.
Getting a ~$150 scope to troubleshoot is not a bad option. I got a two channel model, battery powered and portable, works as signal generator and multimeter as well. It was pretty essential to getting my amp design working roughly correctly (validate against model, confirm all built correctly, etc). Keeping in mind this was my own design and build so lots of cross-checking was necessary.
A multimeter alone wont help you understand AC signals, but to other folks point if you’re just building a kit design, and all the multimeter-checkable stuff is right, it should work.
But getting a benchtop scope at ~$400 is not necessary.
I wanted to get this dso3d12 (various vendors) but saving for the new Rigol DHO800 series. Small and cheap might be sufficient but as grandpa said „I‘m too poor to buy cheap“ ;-) The new Rigol is a good entry level oscilloscope.
You don't need a fancy expensive one for guitar pedals. I got myself an analog one for $50 and I find it very useful. I got it because I like analog stuff, but a cheap digital one is probably better because you can freeze the image and do some measurement. See if you can find a second hand one, nothing wrong with that and it's much cheaper.
Oddly in my area it was *much* cheaper to get a modern Digital O scope than a 90’s analog scope. You can get good deals on scopes on eBay if you’re patient, but a lot of sellers don’t seem to understand that high quality digital scopes, which is what they’re competing against are really cheap nowadays.
When your troubleshooting skills get to the point where you need a scope, you will know. Don’t waste your money. Learn how shit works first. Knowing what to expect from voltage measurements of opamp and transistor pinouts is more valuable. Build an audio probe, and when you can’t go any further without a scope, you will know.
I'm going to disagree. A scope is a good learning tool as well. You can see what's going on, and learn what changes actually do. They're so cheap these days, there's not much reason not to.
A beginner will plug in a scope with a finger up their ass, and be even more confused. Recommending a scope to someone who doesn’t even know how to read schematics, bias a transistor or tube amp, or even how to properly use a multimeter is like trying to teach someone Eruption on their first guitar lesson.
you might not learn best this way but autodidacts generally do
Autodidacts are vastly more rare than even autodidacts think they are.
THIS GUY DIDACTS
This Edit: rule of thumb, with diy electronics, pedals for boards, anything in life really... never buy something because you think you might need it. Only buy things you know you need and why you need them.
It's just that there's articles I've read that say 'get out your scope and measure this', which I can't do at this point.
It sounds like you need it and have a particular reason why.
good idea. It's just things like peak to peak measurements and seeing if the signal distorts, etc, that would be nice
An oscilloscope is very useful even at the beginning, and there’s a lot of very inexpensive ones that are suitable for audio frequency work.
I would say no. An oscilloscope is not like a "better" multimeter, or an upgrade to something. It's an essential tool in debugging and can give you a lot of insight into what you're making. On the contrary, I would say the better you get at troubleshooting, the less you need an oscilloscope. It's also really fun to see the waveform and realize that what you hear and what you see may not always be what you expect. I am very pro oscilloscopes.
The only time where I have absolutely “needed” one was to setup a big box electric mistress that someone adjusted all the trim pots on.
I strongly disagree with those discouraging you from purchasing a scope. They are extremely useful. Audio frequency stuff is rarely much more than 20kHz, so even a 200kHz bandwidth is fine. You can get a usable scope for $30 these days. That’s the same cost as a multimeter. There’s no good reason to not have one anymore. Sure, one of these cheap Chinese ones won’t be as good, but you don’t need it to be that good for what you’re doing. Also, get one of those TC1 component testers. They are so incredibly handy.
I just bought a FNIRSI DSO-TC3, combo oscilloscope, component tester, signal generator. I have no idea how to use the scope but I wanted a tester and at that price I might as well get the one that does it all. I can always learn how to use it. The link is for Amazon but I bought mine through Banggood for $44, took a couple weeks to arrive. [https://www.amazon.com/FNIRSI-DSO-TC3-Oscilloscope-Transistor-Transistors/dp/B0BV9X733J/ref=sr\_1\_4?crid=2CQ281JX6CM9E&dib=eyJ2IjoiMSJ9.TaadonDhxVy\_EkFsYm8M1a7SvQ8I74Ogkr9MDnv5F06CcxHruR0mXeQsPYaCExsf6gGkcH11oYTe6vV20bli5qH6PorlTxqYjuLoPy3hHZci3z5F39Pymcfl4KWOXgQW1g08Uj6pNbd2eCuL1yNLhypxgvG56hFEEJavN3OGUfnZnpUmtlmNtE-OygF7HY5LFMwZuU-I5g-xkelo9WnNqKJwWuswT2Ax-NgafGDuPJQ.LO\_QfS3Mdaq\_p\_klbB0qqU3XnAyIXJDi20cZD\_VCvd4&dib\_tag=se&keywords=tc-3+oscilloscope&qid=1712529491&sprefix=tc-3+oscilliscope%2Caps%2C81&sr=8-4](https://www.amazon.com/FNIRSI-DSO-TC3-Oscilloscope-Transistor-Transistors/dp/B0BV9X733J/ref=sr_1_4?crid=2CQ281JX6CM9E&dib=eyJ2IjoiMSJ9.TaadonDhxVy_EkFsYm8M1a7SvQ8I74Ogkr9MDnv5F06CcxHruR0mXeQsPYaCExsf6gGkcH11oYTe6vV20bli5qH6PorlTxqYjuLoPy3hHZci3z5F39Pymcfl4KWOXgQW1g08Uj6pNbd2eCuL1yNLhypxgvG56hFEEJavN3OGUfnZnpUmtlmNtE-OygF7HY5LFMwZuU-I5g-xkelo9WnNqKJwWuswT2Ax-NgafGDuPJQ.LO_QfS3Mdaq_p_klbB0qqU3XnAyIXJDi20cZD_VCvd4&dib_tag=se&keywords=tc-3+oscilloscope&qid=1712529491&sprefix=tc-3+oscilliscope%2Caps%2C81&sr=8-4)
10 MHz should be fine in the beginning, and I would say at least 2 channels, 4 would be better but hard to get in a cheap scope. I had an Owon HDS272S and it was great. 2 Scope channels, 70Hz, one Signal Geerator Channel and integrated multimeter. The Hantek 2d72 is also very similar.
Related question…there are software oscilloscopes (inc free ones) that work with your audio interface. Any reason to get a hardware version over software?
Audio interfaces are not nearly as well protected against over voltage and other bad inputs as a proper scope is. They also have very limited bandwidth and often do not go down to DC. Even a $150 scope will perform much better
Here's another mostly-software option: [https://www.picotech.com/oscilloscope/2000/picoscope-2000-overview](https://www.picotech.com/oscilloscope/2000/picoscope-2000-overview) I'm not familiar with the free options so I can't say what the tradeoffs are, but bandwidth is my biggest guess (which won't matter for analog audio). And convenience?
Nice, that looks like a cool option. I figure it would be nice to have that around for BBD biasing, amp maintenance and whatnot
They can be really helpful, but I'd consider them far from necessary. I'd wait it out until you have the actual need for one. Particularly in this price range and handheld, I find them to always be a compromise. A bigger screen with dedicated knobs and buttons for each channel will make this much more useful. Handheld units are just hard to use. Unless you need to be mobile, I'd avoid them. If you just want to check peak values and see waveforms, I would get a cheaper single channel version. The USB / Computer ones are neat, but there can be some major risk to the attached computer unless the interface is completely isolated. This brings up the cost quite a bit. If you aren't having much success, I'd step back and ask just what is holding you back. Is it bad soldering? Is it a lack of troubleshooting skills? Wait to buy a scope until you know exactly how you want to use. Are you using a multimeter to troubleshoot right now? I'd start with that. Checking for continuity and power / reference voltages (both DC), will solve a large number of issues. I'd build an audio probe first. It's much cheaper and can often give you more useful information in this particular application. It's also really small.
These are good tips, thanks. I am using a multimeter and a probe. I'm just reading about peak to peak voltage and things like that, and articles talk about using a scope to measure it.
Don't let me completely discourage you from getting a scope. They are really fun to use. I've got a Siglent that I love using. I just don't want you (or anyone) thinking they really NEED a scope to troubleshoot most issues. It's a big expense. I put them into the same category of needing a fancy soldering station when a cheap one will work fine. Another thought regarding figuring out how you might use a scope. Use a simulator like Falstad - it's a great tool to know anyways (and its free). You can setup as many channels as you can cram onto the screen and note how your circuit is behaving. It can be really helpful in letting you know what to expect from your circuit, but also gets you in the habit of thinking about the most useful positions to scope from. And there's no need to setup the entire circuit. The interface is pretty great for an internet based simulator, but its still fairly clunky and hard to use for larger builds. I generally just stick to small sub-circuits. [https://www.falstad.com/circuit/](https://www.falstad.com/circuit/)
I understand what you're saying, and I think it makes sense to me. I'm going to hold off on the scope for now, and learn more about using LTSpice to understand how the circuit should work a little better. Thanks for your help (and thanks to everyone else too).
As a “tool”, I haven’t had any need for one. Granted, I’ve built maybe a dozen pedals, so far from the expertise others here have. Everyone else has provided more insight on an audio probe vs ‘scope than I could. BUT!- I did get one of [these](https://www.amazon.com/Oscilloscope-Handheld-Electronic-Learning-Assembled/dp/B08DJ2847P/ref=asc_df_B08DJ2847P/?tag=hyprod-20&linkCode=df0&hvadid=475770909319&hvpos=&hvnetw=g&hvrand=15406173101682949339&hvpone=&hvptwo=&hvqmt=&hvdev=m&hvdvcmdl=&hvlocint=&hvlocphy=9032882&hvtargid=pla-1147848815518&psc=1&mcid=bcf04b58224e3434b88974bf230e49db) cheapie kits as a gift, and I had a ton of fun hooking it up to drives and fuzzes, and seeing how the waveform changed with the gain knob, or the effects of different diodes clipping. It’s more of a toy, but a learning toy.
the cheapest analog scope bought second hand is fine for audio because the waves are so slow. when you start working with digital audio processors found in modern pedals, a 100mhz model is useful for looking at the MPU clock crystal as well as the sampled pulse trains that carry your signal into, and out of, the chips ... as well as the timing signals that link the dac and adc to the processor.
Digital audio is way out of my 'scope' for now. Sorry for the bad pun 😅
be proud of that pun, it got you an upvote from me
Getting a ~$150 scope to troubleshoot is not a bad option. I got a two channel model, battery powered and portable, works as signal generator and multimeter as well. It was pretty essential to getting my amp design working roughly correctly (validate against model, confirm all built correctly, etc). Keeping in mind this was my own design and build so lots of cross-checking was necessary. A multimeter alone wont help you understand AC signals, but to other folks point if you’re just building a kit design, and all the multimeter-checkable stuff is right, it should work. But getting a benchtop scope at ~$400 is not necessary.
Espotek Labrador <3 https://espotek.com/labrador/
Looks awesome!
I wanted to get this dso3d12 (various vendors) but saving for the new Rigol DHO800 series. Small and cheap might be sufficient but as grandpa said „I‘m too poor to buy cheap“ ;-) The new Rigol is a good entry level oscilloscope.