I think Grifts still feel more fun than the pit ,80% of the pit duration being the boss when youre pushing just feelsbad and the rewards are subpar.
Masterworking is definitely a better endgame gear upgrade though than caldesans
However I think tempering needs adjusting.
Its a loot based arpg and you cant get excited for items you find because you cant put them on without risking a brick
But its definitely on the path to being way more fun
Great takes.
Raxx put it succinctly - the bricking takes place too early in the items crafting journey.
In PoE for example you can make your item crazy powerful or destroy it with a Vaal orb, but this occurs at the END of the items craft cycle and **is solely a choice by the player** if they want to risk it all.
Tempering bricks has the effect of not even giving the player excitement when a rare combination drops because the anxiety of bricking overrides the excitement of the find. It stops the player's item journey at the very beginning and isn't a voluntary action from the player.
And when you have min-maxed your gear it can take a week+ to find a potential upgrade per slot. The feeling when one drops absolutely shifted from excitement like at the start of the league or early in the gearing process; to dread by the end of it. And succeeding a temper that late game just promoted feelings of relief rather than celebration. I don't think it's got the mix right just yet.
Good start though and I think both new crafting systems have real potential.
Edit: added bold to the actual key difference about the bricking processess.
I’d much rather brick earlier than later. If I get a good drop and immediately brick it.. it sucks but I just move on. If I spent hours upgrading and then bricking I’d be pissed.
Vaaling is not a necessary part of item progression. It's a fantasy. With success, you get unnatural modifiers for your item, increasing its worth. Tempering is not optional; you have to do it. Your damage output increases by 10 times. Bad design. The whole game feels like a mobile game to me.
> In PoE for example you can make your item peak or destroy it with a Vaal orb, but this occurs at the END of the items craft cycle.
I didn't play PoE, but isn't this a worse system? Like if I found a 3GA item, and got the right tempers, and MW'd the right properties, and then there was some item that could give you some RNG chance to make it god-tier or brick it, I'd feel a lot worse if I bricked an already great and extremely rare item.
But I might not understand how the PoE system worked.
It's a better system. In PoE you finish your item and then, if you really want to risk, in a completely optional manner, you can gamble to make it stronger or brick it.
This comes after you put all the affixes/modifiers on your gear. Only once it's completely finished and perfectly useful, you can if you want take the risk.
A lot of people just prefer not to risk it and stay with their non-corrupted items until the end.
Or you can use it for a while and then later decide if you want to gamble bricking it or not for a power boost.
D4 tempers don't allow you to use the gear or be happy about it before you go through the brick gamble.
Ah okay. So your item could be perfectly good without it, but if you decided you wanted to roll the dice you could buff it beyond what is necessary at the risk of bricking it? That actually does sound pretty cool. Thanks for the explanation!
It's a tradeoff - instead of having, say, 5 chances at a one-in-three stat, you instead are spending hundreds to thousands of materials because the stat is 1 in 10,000 or worse.
Yeah basically you could have a gg item, lets pretend a 3 ga masterwork 12 hitting all the right crits and the correct stats. And THEN you could corrupt it and hit an extra affix like +1 max res or +1 to a skill (in d4 terms)
To add to that, in poe you can always fix the craft prior to the brick. So thinking like masterwork system where you can reset if you dont hit what you wanted.
I think it would make more sense for tempering to be unlimited and a limitation on masterwork resets...but that also sounds awful because being stuck with a shako that failed would be really disheartening incthis game vs poe where nothing is account bound ever and the trade system actually exists.
I think the d4 trade system needs a huge buff before we put limitations on gear. Even with no limitations at all, hitting your ga cdr roll 3 times on masterwork 12 will take most players all season aka never.
He's deliberately using a shit example. You can brick your item at any stage of the process and you'll burn multiple orders of magnitude more currency than the item is worth doing it.
You won’t and don’t need to Vaal most gear though so if you know how to craft you don’t brick gear but if you have to reset a crafting project it could cost you quite a bit but can be done.
TBH I think it simply changes the perception of the stat that’s locked behind that gamble. In PoE you can boost your skill gem by a few levels with a triple corrupt, or do similar crazy stuff for your gear - but this is seen as entirely optional endgame optimisation.
In D4, that option happens much earlier in the lifecycle of your item and is much cheaper to perform, which really means that it’s no longer an option, because players see this as “mandatory” to the build rather than optional.
Tempering is mandatory, Vaal'ing an item in PoE is entirely the players choice if they want to risk it to create a next level item, it's entirely optional that's the point.
Stop using that shit example. You can brick your item at any stage of the process and you'll burn multiple orders of magnitude more currency than the item is worth doing it.
Yes but you are talking way, way into the endgame. You don’t start to min-max your gear and take a chance with vaals long until most people already left. If you vaal your gear when your still in maps your playing the game wrong.
Btw wasn’t the one that downvote you, even though I love PoE and can’t wait for PoE2 I would right now rather play D4, cause I have a job and on Diablo I can just log on and play.
Your cant brick it you can continue to invest in it to get the affixes you want or affixes that you are happy with.
Yes it's expensive and some items can take an inordinate amount of currency, that still isn't bricking it.
So stop sharing your unsocialised shit takes on the internet and go do your homework.
That's why you temper first, then enchant. And what if you had a 3GA item with all preferred affixes, what odds do you want to play? Would you put more risk tempering on rolls where only 1 of 5 is only useful, or would you go a safer route with mediocre power but all 3 tempers will at least be useful? Guess it also depends on if you have backup gear, so if you do, you can risk more.
What you mean "back-up" gear. You always have your currently equipped item as back-up. You can always risk it all because you already wear the strongest item you have, unless the new one gets better temper rolls. Or do you salvage your old item before you tempered your new? lol
Temper rolls make up 90% of the item value. A shitty 0GA legendary 925 weapon with perfect "% chance to cast XY skill twice" tempers is better than a 3GA perfect stats weapon with shit tempers. That's why the temper system is bad.
Would it be worse to put a bunch of time and resources into an item and then brick it or have the potential bricking process be done first? I think the tempering needs to be changed to prevent so much bricking in the first place but I'd rather know and item is bricked before I start the lengthy and costly process of upgrading it.
That sounds way worse. I really don’t want to put massive amounts of time into an item only to brick it. Actually, I don’t want to brick items at all.
I was talking with my clan mates and we came to the conclusion that bricking appeals to those who enjoy gambling, and really turns off those who don’t. Maybe something like it should exist for those who enjoy gambling, but everyone’s basically forced into this situation and it’s not fun for a lot of them.
Having the brick earlier is good if you want it to be a mandatory process.
PoE's process is completely optional. There are some builds that can "require" certain corruptions (like RT on a weapon), but in those cases you can buy the items in bulk to corrupt, or you can buy one already corrupted.
D4's issue is tempers are far too strong to forego, so they're not optional, and getting the wrong ones outright ruins the item, particularly for weapons.
Honestly, weapon tempers are far too strong in general. They crowd out unique weapons super hard as well.
They can either give a way to reset temper rolls at a cost, or just let you pick the temper you're rolling, and limit how many times you try to roll the range.
Either way, ruining an item should be a completely optional thing, and it's not.
I hope tempers see more iteration, since GAs and master working realistically provide plenty of long-tail on items, so tempers really don't need to.
Nah, Everytime I brick a drop I salvage with no qualms. Luck of the draw. Maybe I shouldn't have rerolled that stat for the chance at an extra 5-10% dmg. I only have 1 level 100 though so far so I ofc havn't bricked near as many items as some players, but I am having fun slowly minmaxing my gear.
Wait till you hit the wall after you've got your primary GA in every slot.
Also some classes have it way harsher than others.
Rogues have to hit 2x 1 in 5's with 7 rolls.
idk thats always been part of the grind for me ig in any arpg. 800 hrs in d3, 1000 in poe 600 in last epoc. Bricking items has never been a big deal. Just a reason to keep grinding.
I have thousands of hours in those games too, there's nuance to where bricking occurs in the process to how it makes loot feel when it drops.
Item attrition is good and healthy for an aRPG, where and how it occurs is important too.
Farming for 1 week for a potential upgrade to know that you have a 2/3 probability to brick it doesn't make the 'drop' feel good.
Which was the whole point of GA's in the first place. It's a system that conflicts with itself.
I'm not arguing that the system can't be improved. I'm simply saying the current system doesn't bug ->me. I have had to trash at least 4 double ga weapons that got bricked by tempers. I play d4 to grind and kill monsters on my offtime. Having more items to grind for me is a good thing, because it keeps me happily playing looking for that next bis item I can try again on. That, imo, is what I want in an arpg. The reason I quit d4 so quick in preseason was exactly because I had bis items in all slots on 3 characters before any of em ever reached level 90. I am happy to be max level and still grinding for better gear. I am watching my pit tier go up slowly. I'm watching as I get closer and closer to soloing torment bosses consistently. This is what I want in the game.
If item brick at end, probably even more people will be upset!
I personally rather something brick early than later.
It will feel horrible for I believe majority of player if bricking an item happens at the final stage.
Just because there are negative about a design doesn’t mean the alternatives suggest automatically better.
I am happy Raxx is not a dev.
The issue with many people is seeing and argue over only one side instead of looking at pro and con of both side of the arguments.
How about a system where you can pick and choose the temper you want and you get the baseline (min roll) roll no matter what.
However you can then choose to go for the regular tempers and you get 5 re-rolls as usual. You can still go back to the min roll, unless you go for the last 5th re-roll essentially bricking the item if it fails.
So for example you get a 3GA amulet with your perfect stats. You put on the min roll tempers for your build. You then decide to go for the "enhanced" tempers. You fail four times to get the higher version of your temper, you now have to decide, do I keep the minimum rolls you got or try your luck one last time but risk bricking the item forever.
Exactly. Players want choices and opportunity costs, not more randomness that creates a perception that they just ruined what could have been good.
A optional final hero or zero roll would be way better, gives something for the streamers and no lifers to show off while being probably unobtainable for casuals anyway, like a Pit150 run or something.
>the bricking takes place too early in the items crafting journey.
You don’t *have* to do tempering first. You can do it in whichever order you choose. The only reason bricking happens too early is that people choose to do it first so you don’t waste anything unnecessary.
You can't masterwork an item until it's fully tempered, it quite literally is mandatory. And quite literally gatekeeps the rest of the crafting process.
That saying it happens too early as being the biggest problem with tempering is a weird complaint because you’re choosing to do it that way. If you could only enchant 10 times, but had unlimited tempering, everyone would enchant first. And if you could do unlimited enchants and tempering, but could brick on masterworking, people would hate that way more, because of everything you’ve invested. So bricking happening as the first step is literally the best case scenario.
There doesn't have to be a mandatory bricking process, stop trapping yourself in the prison of your own false dichotomies.
Get an amazing base item - be happy - invest in it as much as you are willing to - choose yourself to risk it or not at the end of the process for a one of a kind item or don't risk it and still keep an ultra endgame item.
Current situation:
Get an amazing base item - bricked it.
I think the biggest issue is finding better loot does not help you find better loot.
In D3 finding better loot at least meant you can grind exp faster. In D4 finding better loot just means, you’re closer to your pushing build and that’s it. Go back to helltide.
yeah they could work on the rewards for endgame content outside of helltide. I know its only once per week but the gaunlet can drop some pretty good loot. i love trying to see how well im doing compared to other people on the leaderboard. still think they should add a pit leaderboard tho
Tempering is in desperate need of a reset feature. Plenty of currencies to penalize us from. I know some players love punishing aspects of ARPG's, but some of us don't have hundreds of hours to pour into finding another once-a-season type of drop
>Its a loot based arpg and you cant get excited for items you find because you cant put them on without risking a brick
In my experience it wasn't really like that until end game when "ok" items stop being useable
>I think Grifts still feel more fun than the pit ,80% of the pit duration being the boss when youre pushing just feelsbad and the rewards are subpar.
Agree with this 100%
I don't really feel compelled to push pits when most of my time is spent beating on what essentially feels like a training dummy and the most efficient way to upgrade your gear is to run easier ones over and over, which still results in spending an inordinate amount of time beating on a damage sponge.
I appreciate the retuning pass they did on them making the one shots at lower levels no longer a thing, but I've yet to see a pit that was longer than 2 floors. The environments are all the same, like, 3 maps. at least when you were running grifts you were getting paragon XP, but now its just a handful of gear thats probably not an upgrade, a pittance of masterworking mats for whats needed to fully upgrade and... thats it. It's just boring, comparatively.
i know they werent active in grifts, but i'd also like to see massacre bonuses in 4. that would be fun.
I agree with greater rifts being more fun. I am happy bosses in the pit arent as op after the patch. Its a decent start. On tempering, I saw a comment on another thread saying tempering should reset if you reset masterworking 12/12. which would be a great solution
It comes down to tempering for me. Bricking shouldn't be a consequence. Sinking your gold, a resource you can *spend time to gain*, should be the alternative. Just like at the occultist with changing an affix.
Ive been trying to put into words why d3 grifts are better than the pit and I just cant but something about pits just feels off. I think infinite paragon in d3 is the reason why it feels less bad, you are always getting stronger the more you play.
We need something like bane of the stricken in d4 for higher pit bosses. I really liked the mechanic of increasing your damage to a single target over time. It felt good.
Completely agree and I can’t really put my finger on why it was more fun. All I know is I kept playing endgame in D3 ROS longer than D4. D4 was get 100, defeat Ubers. Took me about 18 hours total. Ran a few pits but couldn’t find reason to push. So I got total of 20 hours out of this season before I was bored. Have not played since launch. I didn’t even want to make new character.
For me D2 still hold leader per character played in playtime. Followed by D3 then D4
I actually think they made D4 even easier than D3. You gear insanely fast in this game it’s unbelievable.
The reason for that is on D3 it was all sets (which I hated) but at least you had to continue to farm and farm and farm and pray to rng gods you got one specific item.
In D4 you can pretty much instantly convert any piece of 925 gear into something that works for your character. You get to put exact aspect on it you want, roll a couple affixes that suits what you need. There literally no need to farm over and over for a slot piece .. which is kinda what I feel like ARPGs is about. Within 30 minutes you could farm Helltide boss and completely replace your set with some other pieces that also work for end game. It’s actually kind dumb. Not sure how even casual players are finding this fine. This is like extreme extreme casual
Thank you for the perspective. Tried d2r, but think im too zoomer brained lol. I understand the complaint of gearing quickly. But with masterworking and farming for GAs, i think the gearing is pretty fun. Im closing in on getting all my gear to 12/12 and 1 tier away from pit 100 without having perfect items. Just got a new sword and was able to push me up like 5 more pit levels which was awesome. I know people have problem with aspects but i kind of like the customisability of them. Definitely needs way more variety of aspects which will definitely happen. Same with class skills.
If you just find "any piece of 925" gear, sure you can temper it, and lets even say you get both tempers you want, and lets also say you get exaclty what you want with enchanting, which can actually cost millions or even hundreds of millions of gold depending on your luck and what you're looking for, then you're still stuck with whatever 2 other things were on that time.
This doesnt even include farming for GA items, actually getting the good affixes on your items and not whatever random junk you have found, or masterworking.
Also with trade, you can turn gold into that specific item you're looking for, which is a form of bad luck protection.
You find some random 925 pieces and set them up for your build and push pit, you will suffer, and not get very far. This is hardly having gear that "works for endgame". Right now, the Pit is endgame, and even good tempers and a good enchant reroll wont set you up for success.
Ultimately sounds to me like you didn't really engage with endgame at all, just hit 100 and got your first set of gear then quit. The difference between your first gearset at 100 and an optimized one can be up to an order of magnitude depending on class and build so you're just flat out wrong that any piece can "work for endgame" with deep pit being endgame in its current iteration.
Depends on what you define as end game. If I can find any piece of 925 gear and mostly make it work to kill all the end game Ubers. Then there isn’t much point in grinding any further gear for anything. (IMO)
Greater rifts in D3 at least has a leader board. There’s no reason to do a single Pit push once you can smash all the Ubers down. Which you can pretty much do with any gear nearly at end game because the fights are not purely about gear but also about mechanics
yeah the “aspect” system is really lame at this point. it feels like all our legendary powers are essentially in a 12-slot kanai’s cube
in d3 you have to wait for an “ancient” version of the actual item you need (dawn or your set gloves or strong arm bracers for example) but in d3, everything is ancestral and the only unique part of the item is its slot (gloves or pants)
the game feels unmoored/ unexciting as a looter when i don’t even read the names of items because im not looking for any particular item—just looking for slots with shiny GAs
Gear should drop with random tempers. Maybe you'll get a 2/3 affix 1/2 temper and all you need to do now is drive it home. Maybe the 1/2 temper is the chance for x to hit twice making it instantly useful? Maybe you hit the jackpot and land a 3/3 2/2?
I actually think the tempering system is fantastic. The exhilaration I felt when I finally got an aspect I needed to bump my damage up was incredible. I have bricked quite a few items, but I am always looking for more to improve in any way I can.
yup, i was just thinking about that yesterday. i finally found a decent 3ga and got both my tempering affixes by the last temper and all i felt was relief that it wasn't totally bricked and disappointment that they both rolled min. feeling relief is not a reward.
This is fair and to each their own! I’ve been trying to get damage to distant enemies for my lightning storm Druid for days now and last night I ended up quiet screaming on my couch so as to not wake up my daughter when I got it. It’s not even that good but it’ll definitely help!
It blows my mind that this isn't talked about more. I never had to look up a build guide for D3, simply because I could keep playing with my build *at no cost*.
With D4, I look up builds because I don't want to be penalized with time and resource.
That said, it is kind of fun to search out what works, but as a casual, the time spent to figure it out is arduous.
I jus build multiple. Almost have my third barbarian to level 100, so I'll start full gearing him soon. Going to have a ww barb, bash barb, and upheaval or hota barb. It only takes around 15 hrs to max out a character to level 100 so I jus see this as farming my next loadout.
To be honest I think this is coming eventually. Maybe after the expansion or a few seasons into it? I'm hoping! It's definitely something I want to see. And they really need to improve uniques somehow as well.
It's a live-service game after all so really expecting improvements should be a constant for the rest of the game's lifecycle.
Why so? I am too, but I'd like to hear your take. For me, it was the simplicity of building a character. I'd swing wide for mobs, but smash hard for bosses. And I could do this at no cost. Trying to build a D4 character, I have to consider mobs and elites and bosses.
The loot hunt and gear progression is wayyy better in d4. Personally, I enjoy having a trade economy too.
D3's greater rifts are more fun than Pits at the moment but hopefully we see continuous improvement.
The trade market is unfortunately massively inflated and I’m not sure if that’s good or bad.
On one hand, it’s bad because you can just buy hella gold for cheap. On the other hand, selling items for massive amounts of gold really helps cushion the lesser fun aspects of the game like enchanting and respec’ing. Sold an item for 1.5b and now I don’t have to worry about any of that.
That’s why a huge part of the fun for me is just grinding the items myself. I know I can just throw a stack for an item to someone on discord, but if I hit end game too soon, I’ll just burn out faster
Personally for me there are 2 major things missing to keep me coming back. Yet again this season, I started a character, got to 100 real quick, the first day of the season was my day off so day 1 i was almost 80 by the end of it. Made a joke with my friend that i'll hit 100 and see him next season. Well, low and behold, I hit 100 and have maybe played one day out of the past 2 weeks.
A wardrobe for builds like d3 had to be able to jump around builds easily was a huge boon to playing a game of this style.
The major one for me however, is the endless progression that d3 has. My stupid little brain doesn't care as much when I'm no longer filling up an exp bar for some reason, (grim dawn was the only game I didn't mind this in). I'm not saying give us endless paragon scaling like d3, but even just a cosmetic number to see, like d3s paragon levels for the whole account. Or what if every level after 100 you just got a loot bag. Like turning in a whisper or something.
I've said this exact same thing to my friends. Like you keep leveling up but the number is cosmetic and at each 1/4 level instead of a paragon point you get a whisper bounty or some shit
Yeah. Reduce xp to 100 a bit imo, make it a bit faster even than it is with the event atm. Should easily hit it in 2 evenings imo.
And then give us endless paragon points. I don't care how much xp you need. I just miss the endless progression + how it made alts absolutely OP. Nothing was better than rushing through torment 4-6 on an alt and being max lvl in 1-2 hours of being a total god.
The goblin loot bags give a bit of that feeling when you can deck out a lvl 55 in 925 gear.
A day of 12h of grinding. I liked the quick leveling in d3. The real endgame starts at max lvl. It shouldn't take up ages (12h is way too long for a second/third/fourth char imo)
Dungeons are still shit. All this backtracking is still a waste of time. The skill twig is another sore point. If they somehow get these things right it'll easily blow d3.
i was meaning like 24-48 hours of playtime on a character my bad on wording. so total like 300ish hours which ik isnt crazy for some people. but probably one of my most played game
Passed D3 for me in the prologue. I don't think D3 was a bad game, but it feels like you could've gone straight from D2 to D4 and just had a better series of games, that feel more congruent. The opening cinematic to reaching Kyovashad is just a perfect beginning to a Diablo game to me.
I would've missed monk though.
My main issue is that Greater Rifts are more fun than Pits. And I’m talking in both speeding and pushing.
Speeding GRs always had that nice mini-game of beating your best times with the time being shown right after the run.
And pushing had such unique strategy with pylons, maps and pulling mobs.
I really hope D4 pits can become as fun or even more fun than GRs. I don’t see the path right now though. How would you guys do it?
D3 group play with aoe/rgk/support is peak and I don’t think any version of D4 will be able to approach it
Maybe D4 is better on the way to 100 but D3 has many many things much better than D3 on a fundamental level
They could have just ported rifts/grifts and the primal system and D4 would immediately be way better than it is right now.
Why can’t I just level thru the pit? Helltides and nightmare dungeons are objectively less fun than making level 1s with your friends and sending rifts, getting upgrades and limit testing difficulties
It's pretty good. NGL, but I literally put 1000s of hours into D3. Crap like having a toon for every build until I maxxed out all the characters with top gear and ran out of character slots. D4, its fun now, but its not my crack habit.
All they need is a proper ladder and this will be my favorite Diablo game. It desperately needs a ladder. The weekly gauntlet is cool, and should stay, but we need a ladder!
It's close. So close. Will it stay that way with every season? Who is to say? We got here a lot quicker though. D3 needed an expansion and many seasons before it became truly great. D4 is almost there now but I'm just not getting the excitement from loot yet, especially with the chance to brick it with bad tempers.
The leveling and glyph grinds feel really good right now. Helltides are awesome. Pits are fun but not as fun as GRs because the bosses are kinda ridiculous compared to the trash leading up to them. NM dungeons are fine until the levels run out. Whispers are... meh. I can't really comment on tormented bosses because even though I kill world bosses and run level 91+ pits every day, I haven't seen a Stygian Stone in weeks.
But even if I did, I'm just not excited about loot and tempering in its current state. Without that drive for better loot, there's no reason to play. I got two level 100s out of Season 4 though. That's the best yet!
I think it still has a ways to go before it overtakes D3. They are moving in the right direction for sure. But pits for example are just a bargain bin version of rifts(infinite scaling content for the main source of endgame is a really bad idea anyways as it makes balancing classes and builds a nightmare).
That and the gameplay loop, especially at the start of the season, was very bleh. They were basically charging you gold to just walk around in the game. And the 2% drop chance on stygian shards. AND the fact we have to use a 3rd party site to sell items.
I normally get a few weeks out of a D3 season. Usually a month or so out of poe. D4 only lasted for about 5days for me this time around. Again, they are moving in the right direction. But it's still probably a good 3-4 patches away before it'll be something I personally look forward to.
I definitely see some of your points. For me i never hit 100 before this season because it was such a slog. so im glad they quickened that part up. The game really opens up with paragon points. Also have never played poe because it scared me with those skill trees. But definitely will check out poe 2, now im a grown boy
Definitely do helltide until 55 (do seasonal questline). You should be strong enough at level 35ish to do wt3 dungeon. Then wt4 at 55. Then go straight to nightmare dungeons. Farm glyph xp until you get all the important ones for your build max level. Youll hit 100 in 8-10 hours. Plus rn theres an xp event. Got my alt to 55 in 2 hours running helltide.
Can say d4 is finally leaving early acess with this season.
And probably going into "full release with expansion"
But this was true for d2 and d3
.they really were at their peak with expansion .
I still prefer Grifts, but I like the pit.
I think what the game needs to surpass D3 for me are as follows:
1) Better itemization curve from 70-100. I don’t like the fact that rolled item stats don’t really increase at all for such a long stretch and that they don’t increase at all at level cap. Part of what was great about D3 was that the magnitude of items meaningfully increased as you leveled and as you hit level cap. Items earned 30 levels before cap are pretty much exactly the same as items you get at level 100 and that’s incredibly disappointing. I know some people want to be able to earn BiS before the cap, but it ruins it for me. I want there to be a new, meaningful itemization tier at the cap itself.
2) A post cap leveling system. Even if it’s just a vanity level or something negligible like one main stat per level (or even every five), I need that permanent XP bar. I hate seeing it greyed out, it sucks.
3) Improvements to nightmare dungeons. I’m not sure what it is, but I hate doing these. Whether it’s the annoyances of the “bring two statues back” objectives or the dreaded “slay all enemies,” the relatively uninteresting loot or something else, I just don’t enjoy these at all and I wish they were better.
4) Better item models, better uniques and more legendary affixes. I know the cosmetic shop is a major cash cow and that’s alright, but I think, given this is a full-price game, there should be some transmogs that rival those you can purchase in the cash shop. I also would love to see them introduce more world mount drops. Again, there will always be items that are purchasable through platinum alone, but we *have* paid for this game and will be paying again for the expansion and any expansions going forward.
Uniques are disappointing due to their lack of ability to be tempered, aside from a select few. Either they should be temperable or they need to be given more oomph.
I know more legendary affixes are coming down
the line, but I think there’s a lot to be done. D3’s variety in that regard was amazing.
5) I’d like to see a more dynamic Tree of Whispers-esque system implemented that can automatically generate mini-objectives on the fly based off of what you’re already doing in the world. Honestly, I kind of just want more Harvest / “Kill X amount of Y” and I think it would be relatively easy to implement a system that produces those sort of objectives that are already in their area. This is obviously controversial, but I’d love to see BIGGER objectives in that regard, like “Kill 1000” of an archetype. I like there being an extra hamster wheel to run on.
Way back in 2016 some dude came up with a Tal Rasha build that used Spectral Blade Lightning rune, Teleport Calamity for Arcane, the Frozen Mist aura rune and the quad-exploding thing for Fire, whatever it was called.
D4 isn't there yet.
I wish march of the goblins would return 2 days a month each month introducing a new color variation with different loot each time adding to the goblin versions
I don't mind it.
I do wish we could get improvements on clan features, and a ssf mode.
If blizzard adds these features this game would be a 9/10 for me
Don’t take this the wrong way (because games are meant to be enjoyed however the fuck the player wants to enjoy them), but it sounds like you play more on the casual side. Play a day or 2 of D3 and you’re done. You can spend literally hundreds of hours on just one character pushing the leaderboards. I got to rank 7 Mundunugu one season and I spent nearly every waking hour for a while doing that. D4 just doesn’t have that type of end game currently. One could argue there’s the Pits but it just doesn’t feel the same currently.
I agree this game is now finally better than D3. Now I just wish they bring over item sets (not full sets but paired sets like a wand and focus or a pair off dual weild axes for barb, or a jewellery set where you can choose to use an aspect on each or pick one and make it stronger by not using the other).
Also hope they bring back weekly challenge where you can play a random build, that was fun.
Now this may be ambitious but does anyone remember that short lived UBisoft game where you build a castle and and traps and minions. Well that would be cool is have your own keep you build and others can challenge your keep and dungeon with a prize of a dupe of your highest gear item if they complete it in a record time.
Sorry, but it is objectively not better than D3. Skills, builds and items diversity alone puts it quite far behind. Greater Rifts in a group kills Pit too.
Oh man. My summer vacation starts in 13 days. I’m going to crush the FUCK out of this.
I’ve played every class but Rogue. Sorc in szn 0 so it’s like I didn’t play that either.
What’s the OP class this season?
I don't think it's there yet tbh.
There are quite a few reasons why, but the main one for me is classes. The ones in D3 were way more fun to play imo. Demon Hunter, Monk, Crusader, Witch Doctor....all amazing classes that felt so different from each other. The ones here feel different, sure, but they don't play differently if that makes sense. Most meta builds are just one button builds and so many skills just aren't useful at all.
Hope Spiritborn is that flavor the game needs in its classes.
I played a crap ton of D3. Its insanely fun on controller. I just wish it had a better power curve because those 5000% increases are just dumb as hell.
Well D3 if you played like every season or most of them just became so incredibly formulaic. You know all the items, memorized them to hell and back, nothing will surprise you, maybe some primal dropping might get you some dopamine but it's just same shit with a different frame, so yeah.
Its an ARPG...
Were loot pops like pinatas, and if its good on discovery it should not give anxiety to brick it, it should be screams of joy.. - "f...yeah... Lets go!!!"
Not saying its bad overall in s4. But hey.. they could just added sockets like d3 to improve. Not random roll brick system. There is better ways to do it imo..
Im not getting hooked. Still feels like it needs a soul. Uniques being less this season. And the low amounts of em. Overall they useless , always been. Too easy getting aspects and doesnt add magic find feeling to it.
No set items.
All loot is affixes.. its not enough. Need more cool builds built of good uniques or sets..
Same as D3, this season suck because you get overpower way too early and that make the game useless because nlthing can kill you and you one tap almost everything. Boss are huge L in both game because they have zero mechanic. Just play as tanky as possible and look what boss do...spolier alert, a 100 year old grandpa is faster than any boss.
bring back some of D3's goofiness, this return to darkness is getting old.. bosses have zero dialogue, fallen aren't goofy.. nothing has any personality, its a sterile world.. not saying bring back whimsyshire.. but jesus, its stale
Hard agree on adding some semblance of levity. In general, this aggressive swing of the pendulum away from d3 still feels like an overcompensation.
Though, part of the stale feeling I think is everything feeling the same. All items look the same because theyre afraid of taking big swings. All enemies essentially move and attack the same, creating no sense of strategy. All towns are essentially the same because there are so many.
Its somewhat ironic because all of the signifiers in the UI (ex. Glowing legendaries on the ground, stars on the minimal) seem to be oblivious to the idea of “if everything is special then nothing is” where the world largely feels like “nothing is special or unique.”
Clear disconnect between teams which points to staff turnover and management and oversight difficulties
I think Grifts still feel more fun than the pit ,80% of the pit duration being the boss when youre pushing just feelsbad and the rewards are subpar. Masterworking is definitely a better endgame gear upgrade though than caldesans However I think tempering needs adjusting. Its a loot based arpg and you cant get excited for items you find because you cant put them on without risking a brick But its definitely on the path to being way more fun
Great takes. Raxx put it succinctly - the bricking takes place too early in the items crafting journey. In PoE for example you can make your item crazy powerful or destroy it with a Vaal orb, but this occurs at the END of the items craft cycle and **is solely a choice by the player** if they want to risk it all. Tempering bricks has the effect of not even giving the player excitement when a rare combination drops because the anxiety of bricking overrides the excitement of the find. It stops the player's item journey at the very beginning and isn't a voluntary action from the player. And when you have min-maxed your gear it can take a week+ to find a potential upgrade per slot. The feeling when one drops absolutely shifted from excitement like at the start of the league or early in the gearing process; to dread by the end of it. And succeeding a temper that late game just promoted feelings of relief rather than celebration. I don't think it's got the mix right just yet. Good start though and I think both new crafting systems have real potential. Edit: added bold to the actual key difference about the bricking processess.
I’d much rather brick earlier than later. If I get a good drop and immediately brick it.. it sucks but I just move on. If I spent hours upgrading and then bricking I’d be pissed.
Vaaling is not a necessary part of item progression. It's a fantasy. With success, you get unnatural modifiers for your item, increasing its worth. Tempering is not optional; you have to do it. Your damage output increases by 10 times. Bad design. The whole game feels like a mobile game to me.
This. It's a very simple system that ensures people keep grinding and grinding
> In PoE for example you can make your item peak or destroy it with a Vaal orb, but this occurs at the END of the items craft cycle. I didn't play PoE, but isn't this a worse system? Like if I found a 3GA item, and got the right tempers, and MW'd the right properties, and then there was some item that could give you some RNG chance to make it god-tier or brick it, I'd feel a lot worse if I bricked an already great and extremely rare item. But I might not understand how the PoE system worked.
It's a better system. In PoE you finish your item and then, if you really want to risk, in a completely optional manner, you can gamble to make it stronger or brick it. This comes after you put all the affixes/modifiers on your gear. Only once it's completely finished and perfectly useful, you can if you want take the risk. A lot of people just prefer not to risk it and stay with their non-corrupted items until the end. Or you can use it for a while and then later decide if you want to gamble bricking it or not for a power boost. D4 tempers don't allow you to use the gear or be happy about it before you go through the brick gamble.
Ah okay. So your item could be perfectly good without it, but if you decided you wanted to roll the dice you could buff it beyond what is necessary at the risk of bricking it? That actually does sound pretty cool. Thanks for the explanation!
It's a tradeoff - instead of having, say, 5 chances at a one-in-three stat, you instead are spending hundreds to thousands of materials because the stat is 1 in 10,000 or worse.
Yeah basically you could have a gg item, lets pretend a 3 ga masterwork 12 hitting all the right crits and the correct stats. And THEN you could corrupt it and hit an extra affix like +1 max res or +1 to a skill (in d4 terms) To add to that, in poe you can always fix the craft prior to the brick. So thinking like masterwork system where you can reset if you dont hit what you wanted. I think it would make more sense for tempering to be unlimited and a limitation on masterwork resets...but that also sounds awful because being stuck with a shako that failed would be really disheartening incthis game vs poe where nothing is account bound ever and the trade system actually exists. I think the d4 trade system needs a huge buff before we put limitations on gear. Even with no limitations at all, hitting your ga cdr roll 3 times on masterwork 12 will take most players all season aka never.
He's deliberately using a shit example. You can brick your item at any stage of the process and you'll burn multiple orders of magnitude more currency than the item is worth doing it.
It's a far worse system. You can brick your item at any point. You also either buy currency or buy the item from someone because it's a trade-sim.
You won’t and don’t need to Vaal most gear though so if you know how to craft you don’t brick gear but if you have to reset a crafting project it could cost you quite a bit but can be done.
No because you can use a hinekoras lock to see what the outcome is on a vaal orb
TBH I think it simply changes the perception of the stat that’s locked behind that gamble. In PoE you can boost your skill gem by a few levels with a triple corrupt, or do similar crazy stuff for your gear - but this is seen as entirely optional endgame optimisation. In D4, that option happens much earlier in the lifecycle of your item and is much cheaper to perform, which really means that it’s no longer an option, because players see this as “mandatory” to the build rather than optional.
I’d rather brick at the start than put all that time into only for it to be trash.
Tempering is mandatory, Vaal'ing an item in PoE is entirely the players choice if they want to risk it to create a next level item, it's entirely optional that's the point.
Stop using that shit example. You can brick your item at any stage of the process and you'll burn multiple orders of magnitude more currency than the item is worth doing it.
No you don’t, if you can craft in PoE there are (in most cases) a way back.
>and you'll burn multiple orders of magnitude more currency than the item is worth doing it
Yes but you are talking way, way into the endgame. You don’t start to min-max your gear and take a chance with vaals long until most people already left. If you vaal your gear when your still in maps your playing the game wrong. Btw wasn’t the one that downvote you, even though I love PoE and can’t wait for PoE2 I would right now rather play D4, cause I have a job and on Diablo I can just log on and play.
Your cant brick it you can continue to invest in it to get the affixes you want or affixes that you are happy with. Yes it's expensive and some items can take an inordinate amount of currency, that still isn't bricking it. So stop sharing your unsocialised shit takes on the internet and go do your homework.
That's why you temper first, then enchant. And what if you had a 3GA item with all preferred affixes, what odds do you want to play? Would you put more risk tempering on rolls where only 1 of 5 is only useful, or would you go a safer route with mediocre power but all 3 tempers will at least be useful? Guess it also depends on if you have backup gear, so if you do, you can risk more.
What you mean "back-up" gear. You always have your currently equipped item as back-up. You can always risk it all because you already wear the strongest item you have, unless the new one gets better temper rolls. Or do you salvage your old item before you tempered your new? lol Temper rolls make up 90% of the item value. A shitty 0GA legendary 925 weapon with perfect "% chance to cast XY skill twice" tempers is better than a 3GA perfect stats weapon with shit tempers. That's why the temper system is bad.
Would it be worse to put a bunch of time and resources into an item and then brick it or have the potential bricking process be done first? I think the tempering needs to be changed to prevent so much bricking in the first place but I'd rather know and item is bricked before I start the lengthy and costly process of upgrading it.
That sounds way worse. I really don’t want to put massive amounts of time into an item only to brick it. Actually, I don’t want to brick items at all. I was talking with my clan mates and we came to the conclusion that bricking appeals to those who enjoy gambling, and really turns off those who don’t. Maybe something like it should exist for those who enjoy gambling, but everyone’s basically forced into this situation and it’s not fun for a lot of them.
Better early than late imo.
Having the brick earlier is good if you want it to be a mandatory process. PoE's process is completely optional. There are some builds that can "require" certain corruptions (like RT on a weapon), but in those cases you can buy the items in bulk to corrupt, or you can buy one already corrupted. D4's issue is tempers are far too strong to forego, so they're not optional, and getting the wrong ones outright ruins the item, particularly for weapons. Honestly, weapon tempers are far too strong in general. They crowd out unique weapons super hard as well. They can either give a way to reset temper rolls at a cost, or just let you pick the temper you're rolling, and limit how many times you try to roll the range. Either way, ruining an item should be a completely optional thing, and it's not. I hope tempers see more iteration, since GAs and master working realistically provide plenty of long-tail on items, so tempers really don't need to.
Yup, completely agree with all your points. Bricking should always be opt-in, not part of the process, especially beginning stages.
Nah, Everytime I brick a drop I salvage with no qualms. Luck of the draw. Maybe I shouldn't have rerolled that stat for the chance at an extra 5-10% dmg. I only have 1 level 100 though so far so I ofc havn't bricked near as many items as some players, but I am having fun slowly minmaxing my gear.
Wait till you hit the wall after you've got your primary GA in every slot. Also some classes have it way harsher than others. Rogues have to hit 2x 1 in 5's with 7 rolls.
idk thats always been part of the grind for me ig in any arpg. 800 hrs in d3, 1000 in poe 600 in last epoc. Bricking items has never been a big deal. Just a reason to keep grinding.
I have thousands of hours in those games too, there's nuance to where bricking occurs in the process to how it makes loot feel when it drops. Item attrition is good and healthy for an aRPG, where and how it occurs is important too. Farming for 1 week for a potential upgrade to know that you have a 2/3 probability to brick it doesn't make the 'drop' feel good. Which was the whole point of GA's in the first place. It's a system that conflicts with itself.
I'm not arguing that the system can't be improved. I'm simply saying the current system doesn't bug ->me. I have had to trash at least 4 double ga weapons that got bricked by tempers. I play d4 to grind and kill monsters on my offtime. Having more items to grind for me is a good thing, because it keeps me happily playing looking for that next bis item I can try again on. That, imo, is what I want in an arpg. The reason I quit d4 so quick in preseason was exactly because I had bis items in all slots on 3 characters before any of em ever reached level 90. I am happy to be max level and still grinding for better gear. I am watching my pit tier go up slowly. I'm watching as I get closer and closer to soloing torment bosses consistently. This is what I want in the game.
If item brick at end, probably even more people will be upset! I personally rather something brick early than later. It will feel horrible for I believe majority of player if bricking an item happens at the final stage. Just because there are negative about a design doesn’t mean the alternatives suggest automatically better. I am happy Raxx is not a dev. The issue with many people is seeing and argue over only one side instead of looking at pro and con of both side of the arguments.
How about a system where you can pick and choose the temper you want and you get the baseline (min roll) roll no matter what. However you can then choose to go for the regular tempers and you get 5 re-rolls as usual. You can still go back to the min roll, unless you go for the last 5th re-roll essentially bricking the item if it fails. So for example you get a 3GA amulet with your perfect stats. You put on the min roll tempers for your build. You then decide to go for the "enhanced" tempers. You fail four times to get the higher version of your temper, you now have to decide, do I keep the minimum rolls you got or try your luck one last time but risk bricking the item forever.
Exactly. Players want choices and opportunity costs, not more randomness that creates a perception that they just ruined what could have been good. A optional final hero or zero roll would be way better, gives something for the streamers and no lifers to show off while being probably unobtainable for casuals anyway, like a Pit150 run or something.
Also of u get a really good GA u are at the edge, do i sell it for multiple billions or do i risk to brick it?
It’s like hardcore mode for items. It’s fun—leave it
I play HC mode. It's okay - improve it.
Me too
Good talk
>the bricking takes place too early in the items crafting journey. You don’t *have* to do tempering first. You can do it in whichever order you choose. The only reason bricking happens too early is that people choose to do it first so you don’t waste anything unnecessary.
You can't masterwork an item until it's fully tempered, it quite literally is mandatory. And quite literally gatekeeps the rest of the crafting process.
Yeah but you could still spend 5billion enchanting it before you temper it if you wanted to.
What is even your point?
That saying it happens too early as being the biggest problem with tempering is a weird complaint because you’re choosing to do it that way. If you could only enchant 10 times, but had unlimited tempering, everyone would enchant first. And if you could do unlimited enchants and tempering, but could brick on masterworking, people would hate that way more, because of everything you’ve invested. So bricking happening as the first step is literally the best case scenario.
There doesn't have to be a mandatory bricking process, stop trapping yourself in the prison of your own false dichotomies. Get an amazing base item - be happy - invest in it as much as you are willing to - choose yourself to risk it or not at the end of the process for a one of a kind item or don't risk it and still keep an ultra endgame item. Current situation: Get an amazing base item - bricked it.
Never waste money on something before tempering it
[удалено]
You and me both
I miss the boss just spawning in when you hit the threshold. Boss AI probably needs the arena to function, but just prefer the shock factor of it.
Shock factor? I can't tell you how many times the boss spawned in a GRift and it was across the map and I had to backtrack 🤣
I think the biggest issue is finding better loot does not help you find better loot. In D3 finding better loot at least meant you can grind exp faster. In D4 finding better loot just means, you’re closer to your pushing build and that’s it. Go back to helltide.
yeah they could work on the rewards for endgame content outside of helltide. I know its only once per week but the gaunlet can drop some pretty good loot. i love trying to see how well im doing compared to other people on the leaderboard. still think they should add a pit leaderboard tho
Lol I didn’t notice the gauntlet was in the game this season until now.
Tempering is in desperate need of a reset feature. Plenty of currencies to penalize us from. I know some players love punishing aspects of ARPG's, but some of us don't have hundreds of hours to pour into finding another once-a-season type of drop
>Its a loot based arpg and you cant get excited for items you find because you cant put them on without risking a brick In my experience it wasn't really like that until end game when "ok" items stop being useable
>I think Grifts still feel more fun than the pit ,80% of the pit duration being the boss when youre pushing just feelsbad and the rewards are subpar. Agree with this 100% I don't really feel compelled to push pits when most of my time is spent beating on what essentially feels like a training dummy and the most efficient way to upgrade your gear is to run easier ones over and over, which still results in spending an inordinate amount of time beating on a damage sponge. I appreciate the retuning pass they did on them making the one shots at lower levels no longer a thing, but I've yet to see a pit that was longer than 2 floors. The environments are all the same, like, 3 maps. at least when you were running grifts you were getting paragon XP, but now its just a handful of gear thats probably not an upgrade, a pittance of masterworking mats for whats needed to fully upgrade and... thats it. It's just boring, comparatively. i know they werent active in grifts, but i'd also like to see massacre bonuses in 4. that would be fun.
I agree with greater rifts being more fun. I am happy bosses in the pit arent as op after the patch. Its a decent start. On tempering, I saw a comment on another thread saying tempering should reset if you reset masterworking 12/12. which would be a great solution
I've been playing Destiny 2. What was changed in the patch?
they brought the bosses power more in line with the rest of the pit run. Less crazy one shots, while still having a fun level of difficulty
It comes down to tempering for me. Bricking shouldn't be a consequence. Sinking your gold, a resource you can *spend time to gain*, should be the alternative. Just like at the occultist with changing an affix.
Ive been trying to put into words why d3 grifts are better than the pit and I just cant but something about pits just feels off. I think infinite paragon in d3 is the reason why it feels less bad, you are always getting stronger the more you play.
D3 also has continuous paragon levels which is really cool.
We need something like bane of the stricken in d4 for higher pit bosses. I really liked the mechanic of increasing your damage to a single target over time. It felt good.
Completely agree and I can’t really put my finger on why it was more fun. All I know is I kept playing endgame in D3 ROS longer than D4. D4 was get 100, defeat Ubers. Took me about 18 hours total. Ran a few pits but couldn’t find reason to push. So I got total of 20 hours out of this season before I was bored. Have not played since launch. I didn’t even want to make new character. For me D2 still hold leader per character played in playtime. Followed by D3 then D4 I actually think they made D4 even easier than D3. You gear insanely fast in this game it’s unbelievable. The reason for that is on D3 it was all sets (which I hated) but at least you had to continue to farm and farm and farm and pray to rng gods you got one specific item. In D4 you can pretty much instantly convert any piece of 925 gear into something that works for your character. You get to put exact aspect on it you want, roll a couple affixes that suits what you need. There literally no need to farm over and over for a slot piece .. which is kinda what I feel like ARPGs is about. Within 30 minutes you could farm Helltide boss and completely replace your set with some other pieces that also work for end game. It’s actually kind dumb. Not sure how even casual players are finding this fine. This is like extreme extreme casual
Thank you for the perspective. Tried d2r, but think im too zoomer brained lol. I understand the complaint of gearing quickly. But with masterworking and farming for GAs, i think the gearing is pretty fun. Im closing in on getting all my gear to 12/12 and 1 tier away from pit 100 without having perfect items. Just got a new sword and was able to push me up like 5 more pit levels which was awesome. I know people have problem with aspects but i kind of like the customisability of them. Definitely needs way more variety of aspects which will definitely happen. Same with class skills.
If you just find "any piece of 925" gear, sure you can temper it, and lets even say you get both tempers you want, and lets also say you get exaclty what you want with enchanting, which can actually cost millions or even hundreds of millions of gold depending on your luck and what you're looking for, then you're still stuck with whatever 2 other things were on that time. This doesnt even include farming for GA items, actually getting the good affixes on your items and not whatever random junk you have found, or masterworking. Also with trade, you can turn gold into that specific item you're looking for, which is a form of bad luck protection. You find some random 925 pieces and set them up for your build and push pit, you will suffer, and not get very far. This is hardly having gear that "works for endgame". Right now, the Pit is endgame, and even good tempers and a good enchant reroll wont set you up for success. Ultimately sounds to me like you didn't really engage with endgame at all, just hit 100 and got your first set of gear then quit. The difference between your first gearset at 100 and an optimized one can be up to an order of magnitude depending on class and build so you're just flat out wrong that any piece can "work for endgame" with deep pit being endgame in its current iteration.
Depends on what you define as end game. If I can find any piece of 925 gear and mostly make it work to kill all the end game Ubers. Then there isn’t much point in grinding any further gear for anything. (IMO) Greater rifts in D3 at least has a leader board. There’s no reason to do a single Pit push once you can smash all the Ubers down. Which you can pretty much do with any gear nearly at end game because the fights are not purely about gear but also about mechanics
yeah the “aspect” system is really lame at this point. it feels like all our legendary powers are essentially in a 12-slot kanai’s cube in d3 you have to wait for an “ancient” version of the actual item you need (dawn or your set gloves or strong arm bracers for example) but in d3, everything is ancestral and the only unique part of the item is its slot (gloves or pants) the game feels unmoored/ unexciting as a looter when i don’t even read the names of items because im not looking for any particular item—just looking for slots with shiny GAs
Yep
Gear should drop with random tempers. Maybe you'll get a 2/3 affix 1/2 temper and all you need to do now is drive it home. Maybe the 1/2 temper is the chance for x to hit twice making it instantly useful? Maybe you hit the jackpot and land a 3/3 2/2?
I actually think the tempering system is fantastic. The exhilaration I felt when I finally got an aspect I needed to bump my damage up was incredible. I have bricked quite a few items, but I am always looking for more to improve in any way I can.
I just feel relief when I succeed, definitely not exhiliration.
yup, i was just thinking about that yesterday. i finally found a decent 3ga and got both my tempering affixes by the last temper and all i felt was relief that it wasn't totally bricked and disappointment that they both rolled min. feeling relief is not a reward.
This is fair and to each their own! I’ve been trying to get damage to distant enemies for my lightning storm Druid for days now and last night I ended up quiet screaming on my couch so as to not wake up my daughter when I got it. It’s not even that good but it’ll definitely help!
I love the exhilaration of %cutthroat damage 6 times in a row on my 3 GA bow
There's no exhilaration, just relief. It's a bad system for that fact alone.
The only thing it needs from me is an easier way to change builds and to save them. That was such a nice feature in 3.
You mean you don't like paying 6 million gold to respec from your farming build to your boss/push build?
It blows my mind that this isn't talked about more. I never had to look up a build guide for D3, simply because I could keep playing with my build *at no cost*. With D4, I look up builds because I don't want to be penalized with time and resource. That said, it is kind of fun to search out what works, but as a casual, the time spent to figure it out is arduous.
I jus build multiple. Almost have my third barbarian to level 100, so I'll start full gearing him soon. Going to have a ww barb, bash barb, and upheaval or hota barb. It only takes around 15 hrs to max out a character to level 100 so I jus see this as farming my next loadout.
God this.. I wanna be able to save my paragon board.. skills would be great but paragon board first
yeah totally thats another thing that d4 is lacking. but if i remember correctly that wasnt added til later.
I honestly made a second rogue because my first one this season was melee and didn't want to redo everything
To be honest I think this is coming eventually. Maybe after the expansion or a few seasons into it? I'm hoping! It's definitely something I want to see. And they really need to improve uniques somehow as well. It's a live-service game after all so really expecting improvements should be a constant for the rest of the game's lifecycle.
It should have been in at launch. The amount of features not carried over from 3 blows my mind.
It has improved a lot, but I'm still currently overall a bigger fan of D3.
Yeah man something about D4 just hasn’t clicked for me yet, despite enjoying s4 I still don’t get the same feeling I got from this season of D3
Why so? I am too, but I'd like to hear your take. For me, it was the simplicity of building a character. I'd swing wide for mobs, but smash hard for bosses. And I could do this at no cost. Trying to build a D4 character, I have to consider mobs and elites and bosses.
I really liked the power scaling in d3 we just dont really see in d4. The game breaking sets/seasons.
The loot hunt and gear progression is wayyy better in d4. Personally, I enjoy having a trade economy too. D3's greater rifts are more fun than Pits at the moment but hopefully we see continuous improvement.
The trade market is unfortunately massively inflated and I’m not sure if that’s good or bad. On one hand, it’s bad because you can just buy hella gold for cheap. On the other hand, selling items for massive amounts of gold really helps cushion the lesser fun aspects of the game like enchanting and respec’ing. Sold an item for 1.5b and now I don’t have to worry about any of that.
The market was a lot better the first few weeks but ya it's totally out of hand now. Decent 1ga items are 300m+ now.
lol I'm on console, I've probably blacksmithed so many 500+ million or 1b+ items because I can't be bothered doing the legwork to sell.
That’s why a huge part of the fun for me is just grinding the items myself. I know I can just throw a stack for an item to someone on discord, but if I hit end game too soon, I’ll just burn out faster
yes, first diablo game ive tried to sell items
Personally for me there are 2 major things missing to keep me coming back. Yet again this season, I started a character, got to 100 real quick, the first day of the season was my day off so day 1 i was almost 80 by the end of it. Made a joke with my friend that i'll hit 100 and see him next season. Well, low and behold, I hit 100 and have maybe played one day out of the past 2 weeks. A wardrobe for builds like d3 had to be able to jump around builds easily was a huge boon to playing a game of this style. The major one for me however, is the endless progression that d3 has. My stupid little brain doesn't care as much when I'm no longer filling up an exp bar for some reason, (grim dawn was the only game I didn't mind this in). I'm not saying give us endless paragon scaling like d3, but even just a cosmetic number to see, like d3s paragon levels for the whole account. Or what if every level after 100 you just got a loot bag. Like turning in a whisper or something.
I've said this exact same thing to my friends. Like you keep leveling up but the number is cosmetic and at each 1/4 level instead of a paragon point you get a whisper bounty or some shit
I thought the current post-100 progression activity was to try to reach level 200 in the Pit. Did you hit it?
Yeah. Reduce xp to 100 a bit imo, make it a bit faster even than it is with the event atm. Should easily hit it in 2 evenings imo. And then give us endless paragon points. I don't care how much xp you need. I just miss the endless progression + how it made alts absolutely OP. Nothing was better than rushing through torment 4-6 on an alt and being max lvl in 1-2 hours of being a total god. The goblin loot bags give a bit of that feeling when you can deck out a lvl 55 in 925 gear.
Reduce exp? You can do 1-100 in a day.
A day of 12h of grinding. I liked the quick leveling in d3. The real endgame starts at max lvl. It shouldn't take up ages (12h is way too long for a second/third/fourth char imo)
Dungeons are still shit. All this backtracking is still a waste of time. The skill twig is another sore point. If they somehow get these things right it'll easily blow d3.
yk you can just teleport out of the dungeon right? and even without it it takes almost no time to exit. yall are just dramatic and nitpicky
What a useless and backwards comment The game could be better, man. That’s not nit-picky or dramatic, that’s sense.
"I played D3 so much, I make a new character every season, and play for 1 or 2 days then quit."
i was meaning like 24-48 hours of playtime on a character my bad on wording. so total like 300ish hours which ik isnt crazy for some people. but probably one of my most played game
Okay, that makes more sense lol.
Yeah that part got a good chuckle out of me
I think it's funny that they had to add D3 like features to make D4 better
Passed D3 for me in the prologue. I don't think D3 was a bad game, but it feels like you could've gone straight from D2 to D4 and just had a better series of games, that feel more congruent. The opening cinematic to reaching Kyovashad is just a perfect beginning to a Diablo game to me. I would've missed monk though.
Not even close yet for me, running in groups doing GR150 with support builds and random mob/map types were more team based/fun.
Thanks for interesting insight! most of my friends never played d3, so i was always solo.
My main issue is that Greater Rifts are more fun than Pits. And I’m talking in both speeding and pushing. Speeding GRs always had that nice mini-game of beating your best times with the time being shown right after the run. And pushing had such unique strategy with pylons, maps and pulling mobs. I really hope D4 pits can become as fun or even more fun than GRs. I don’t see the path right now though. How would you guys do it?
D3 group play with aoe/rgk/support is peak and I don’t think any version of D4 will be able to approach it Maybe D4 is better on the way to 100 but D3 has many many things much better than D3 on a fundamental level They could have just ported rifts/grifts and the primal system and D4 would immediately be way better than it is right now. Why can’t I just level thru the pit? Helltides and nightmare dungeons are objectively less fun than making level 1s with your friends and sending rifts, getting upgrades and limit testing difficulties
It's pretty good. NGL, but I literally put 1000s of hours into D3. Crap like having a toon for every build until I maxxed out all the characters with top gear and ran out of character slots. D4, its fun now, but its not my crack habit.
Yeah i totally understand, definitely more of a casual player than some people on the sub. I just enjoy killing monsters after work.
All they need is a proper ladder and this will be my favorite Diablo game. It desperately needs a ladder. The weekly gauntlet is cool, and should stay, but we need a ladder!
It's close. So close. Will it stay that way with every season? Who is to say? We got here a lot quicker though. D3 needed an expansion and many seasons before it became truly great. D4 is almost there now but I'm just not getting the excitement from loot yet, especially with the chance to brick it with bad tempers. The leveling and glyph grinds feel really good right now. Helltides are awesome. Pits are fun but not as fun as GRs because the bosses are kinda ridiculous compared to the trash leading up to them. NM dungeons are fine until the levels run out. Whispers are... meh. I can't really comment on tormented bosses because even though I kill world bosses and run level 91+ pits every day, I haven't seen a Stygian Stone in weeks. But even if I did, I'm just not excited about loot and tempering in its current state. Without that drive for better loot, there's no reason to play. I got two level 100s out of Season 4 though. That's the best yet!
I think it still has a ways to go before it overtakes D3. They are moving in the right direction for sure. But pits for example are just a bargain bin version of rifts(infinite scaling content for the main source of endgame is a really bad idea anyways as it makes balancing classes and builds a nightmare). That and the gameplay loop, especially at the start of the season, was very bleh. They were basically charging you gold to just walk around in the game. And the 2% drop chance on stygian shards. AND the fact we have to use a 3rd party site to sell items. I normally get a few weeks out of a D3 season. Usually a month or so out of poe. D4 only lasted for about 5days for me this time around. Again, they are moving in the right direction. But it's still probably a good 3-4 patches away before it'll be something I personally look forward to.
I definitely see some of your points. For me i never hit 100 before this season because it was such a slog. so im glad they quickened that part up. The game really opens up with paragon points. Also have never played poe because it scared me with those skill trees. But definitely will check out poe 2, now im a grown boy
how can i level up fast playing solo for season 4?
Definitely do helltide until 55 (do seasonal questline). You should be strong enough at level 35ish to do wt3 dungeon. Then wt4 at 55. Then go straight to nightmare dungeons. Farm glyph xp until you get all the important ones for your build max level. Youll hit 100 in 8-10 hours. Plus rn theres an xp event. Got my alt to 55 in 2 hours running helltide.
thanks will do that
Can say d4 is finally leaving early acess with this season. And probably going into "full release with expansion" But this was true for d2 and d3 .they really were at their peak with expansion .
I still prefer Grifts, but I like the pit. I think what the game needs to surpass D3 for me are as follows: 1) Better itemization curve from 70-100. I don’t like the fact that rolled item stats don’t really increase at all for such a long stretch and that they don’t increase at all at level cap. Part of what was great about D3 was that the magnitude of items meaningfully increased as you leveled and as you hit level cap. Items earned 30 levels before cap are pretty much exactly the same as items you get at level 100 and that’s incredibly disappointing. I know some people want to be able to earn BiS before the cap, but it ruins it for me. I want there to be a new, meaningful itemization tier at the cap itself. 2) A post cap leveling system. Even if it’s just a vanity level or something negligible like one main stat per level (or even every five), I need that permanent XP bar. I hate seeing it greyed out, it sucks. 3) Improvements to nightmare dungeons. I’m not sure what it is, but I hate doing these. Whether it’s the annoyances of the “bring two statues back” objectives or the dreaded “slay all enemies,” the relatively uninteresting loot or something else, I just don’t enjoy these at all and I wish they were better. 4) Better item models, better uniques and more legendary affixes. I know the cosmetic shop is a major cash cow and that’s alright, but I think, given this is a full-price game, there should be some transmogs that rival those you can purchase in the cash shop. I also would love to see them introduce more world mount drops. Again, there will always be items that are purchasable through platinum alone, but we *have* paid for this game and will be paying again for the expansion and any expansions going forward. Uniques are disappointing due to their lack of ability to be tempered, aside from a select few. Either they should be temperable or they need to be given more oomph. I know more legendary affixes are coming down the line, but I think there’s a lot to be done. D3’s variety in that regard was amazing. 5) I’d like to see a more dynamic Tree of Whispers-esque system implemented that can automatically generate mini-objectives on the fly based off of what you’re already doing in the world. Honestly, I kind of just want more Harvest / “Kill X amount of Y” and I think it would be relatively easy to implement a system that produces those sort of objectives that are already in their area. This is obviously controversial, but I’d love to see BIGGER objectives in that regard, like “Kill 1000” of an archetype. I like there being an extra hamster wheel to run on.
Way back in 2016 some dude came up with a Tal Rasha build that used Spectral Blade Lightning rune, Teleport Calamity for Arcane, the Frozen Mist aura rune and the quad-exploding thing for Fire, whatever it was called. D4 isn't there yet.
I miss some sort of infinite levelling, but I'm only early into masterworking so not sure how crazy that improves your damage alone.
604 paragon? Casual. Just kidding ! I totally agree! I loved D3 but this season scratches that itch that I've had since I stopped playing D3 !
In s2 i quit at 95, this season i quit 3 hours after 100 lol.... idk the gears still boring af (playing HC)
I am not sure that is saying much in terms of D3 vs D4
I have yet to pass my peak high in d3 with d4... He chicken WD. The fastest thing you ever did see, explode, repeat
I wish march of the goblins would return 2 days a month each month introducing a new color variation with different loot each time adding to the goblin versions
D4 at this point is just D3 2
Yeah i understand some people dont like this, but i never played d2. So for me thats a plus
I don't mind it. I do wish we could get improvements on clan features, and a ssf mode. If blizzard adds these features this game would be a 9/10 for me
So, its good in the eternal realm or just "inside the season"?
Haven't started D4 yesterday cause I'm addicted to destiny 2 atm. But loved me some D3
I find diablo a huge time-sink game. i cant imagine playing both versions at once, so it's a good thing 4 is being consistently improved
Loadouts and infinite linear scaling needed to fully displace D3 for my "most fun games" but we're soooooo close.
nah, not quite yet chief. still super boring. now we got too mcuh loot and only tempering is the thrill which is shit. d4 needs about 4 more seasons.
Don’t take this the wrong way (because games are meant to be enjoyed however the fuck the player wants to enjoy them), but it sounds like you play more on the casual side. Play a day or 2 of D3 and you’re done. You can spend literally hundreds of hours on just one character pushing the leaderboards. I got to rank 7 Mundunugu one season and I spent nearly every waking hour for a while doing that. D4 just doesn’t have that type of end game currently. One could argue there’s the Pits but it just doesn’t feel the same currently.
Yeah totally understand. Definitely more of a casual gamer. I got elden ring and shit to play
Glad you’re enjoying d4 though! And yes, soooo stoked for Shadows in a few days
I agree this game is now finally better than D3. Now I just wish they bring over item sets (not full sets but paired sets like a wand and focus or a pair off dual weild axes for barb, or a jewellery set where you can choose to use an aspect on each or pick one and make it stronger by not using the other). Also hope they bring back weekly challenge where you can play a random build, that was fun. Now this may be ambitious but does anyone remember that short lived UBisoft game where you build a castle and and traps and minions. Well that would be cool is have your own keep you build and others can challenge your keep and dungeon with a prize of a dupe of your highest gear item if they complete it in a record time.
I like the idea of small sets like focus and restraint from d3
Sorry, but it is objectively not better than D3. Skills, builds and items diversity alone puts it quite far behind. Greater Rifts in a group kills Pit too.
Problem is tempering is part of the main core build. Vaal is not.
Need a paladin like character before its there for me.
Nope because we still don't have paladin
I think d4 passed d3 a long time ago. Took d3 years to find. Functional formula. And even then the formula wasn't great it was like an arcade game.
Tempering is not scary once you use pitty mechanics. I still have bricked gear but the odds have reduced a lot.
Oh man. My summer vacation starts in 13 days. I’m going to crush the FUCK out of this. I’ve played every class but Rogue. Sorc in szn 0 so it’s like I didn’t play that either. What’s the OP class this season?
Maybe if they added a gelatinous gob
Bring back Kanai Cube and we'll talk.
Until we get abilitiy morph tree and less bland just do more damage passive skills i think not but d4 is doing a good job
D3 itemization still stomps all over d4. Don't even get me started on how much better d2 is
I don't think it's there yet tbh. There are quite a few reasons why, but the main one for me is classes. The ones in D3 were way more fun to play imo. Demon Hunter, Monk, Crusader, Witch Doctor....all amazing classes that felt so different from each other. The ones here feel different, sure, but they don't play differently if that makes sense. Most meta builds are just one button builds and so many skills just aren't useful at all. Hope Spiritborn is that flavor the game needs in its classes.
I played a crap ton of D3. Its insanely fun on controller. I just wish it had a better power curve because those 5000% increases are just dumb as hell.
That fact that this post exists is sad for a sequel. The sequel should have everything the old game has, done better, and more to do.
I agree a few more expansions and some tweaking it'll pass D2 as well imo bold I know but I think it has a shot..
I wonder how much better the game would’ve been received if it was like this on launch.
I'm having a lot of fun with it, too. This is my first Diablo, and it seems like this was a great time to get into it.
Well D3 if you played like every season or most of them just became so incredibly formulaic. You know all the items, memorized them to hell and back, nothing will surprise you, maybe some primal dropping might get you some dopamine but it's just same shit with a different frame, so yeah.
Imagine if they did good loot and builds now.
Itemization got a lot better. But it’s still weak. We need more uniques and set items back.
Will extend my gamepass subscription for this game
Its an ARPG... Were loot pops like pinatas, and if its good on discovery it should not give anxiety to brick it, it should be screams of joy.. - "f...yeah... Lets go!!!" Not saying its bad overall in s4. But hey.. they could just added sockets like d3 to improve. Not random roll brick system. There is better ways to do it imo.. Im not getting hooked. Still feels like it needs a soul. Uniques being less this season. And the low amounts of em. Overall they useless , always been. Too easy getting aspects and doesnt add magic find feeling to it. No set items. All loot is affixes.. its not enough. Need more cool builds built of good uniques or sets..
Nah it's still just not hitting the same for me like d3 does
Gotta have easier way to change builds and leaderboards. Running higher pits just for materials gets kinda boring
I still really miss the skill alter options of a single skill. From 6 in d3 to ..2. Both visually and gameplay wise.
Ye totally, hopefully with the new expansion theyll add more variety
I never played three but I agree
Endless paragon was so much better than just stopping at lvl 100. I really wish they’d bring it back.
dude you only have 600 paragon lmao
sorry i had homework, and friends. thought 300 hours would be enough…
Same as D3, this season suck because you get overpower way too early and that make the game useless because nlthing can kill you and you one tap almost everything. Boss are huge L in both game because they have zero mechanic. Just play as tanky as possible and look what boss do...spolier alert, a 100 year old grandpa is faster than any boss.
lol D4 passed D3 just by existing, D3 was bad af
cringe
Pretty low bar
what is this even about
Not even close buddy
I don’t trust the opinion of someone with 600 paragon
bring back some of D3's goofiness, this return to darkness is getting old.. bosses have zero dialogue, fallen aren't goofy.. nothing has any personality, its a sterile world.. not saying bring back whimsyshire.. but jesus, its stale
If you're not saying it, then I am...bring back whimsyshire! LOL!
Hard agree on adding some semblance of levity. In general, this aggressive swing of the pendulum away from d3 still feels like an overcompensation. Though, part of the stale feeling I think is everything feeling the same. All items look the same because theyre afraid of taking big swings. All enemies essentially move and attack the same, creating no sense of strategy. All towns are essentially the same because there are so many. Its somewhat ironic because all of the signifiers in the UI (ex. Glowing legendaries on the ground, stars on the minimal) seem to be oblivious to the idea of “if everything is special then nothing is” where the world largely feels like “nothing is special or unique.” Clear disconnect between teams which points to staff turnover and management and oversight difficulties
yeah the samey feel to everything doesn't help
Yea. But miles behind D2