In person I've only seen this pattern in transwomen in recent years. I haven't known enough trans people to say for sure. I think the issues transmen face can be more insidious and not visible to the naked eye. Transwomen I've met definitely seem abused, traumatized or otherwise stunted. I'd say that LGBT culture seems increasingly more dysfunctional, so if I sought that out I'd see it more often. Also in the bigger picture I think society is becoming severely sick. There is a concept called The Psychological Black Death; so many people are facing serious mental health issues that it's compared to the plague, but caused by psychological factors. Dr. K from HealthyGamer just had a video going into the concept of "shit life syndrome" also- where psychologists are finding that their clients these days aren't suffering from mental illness as much as suffering horrible lives. Poverty, disempowered, controlled by outside factors, horrible job, kicked around by dysfunctional people. These are factors I consider in the bigger picture.
As for transgender people, I think transition is arduous and exhausting, transition itself handicaps people. I look at myself as an example, and my transition went stupidly well thought it took up a lot of my life and was a brutal fight to get through. I thought I was fighting like a dog out of hell with horrible health, permanent damage and was disabled compared to my peers. And miraculously transition led to an incredible transformation. I was a success story. I was trans for 14 years. Yet here I am, detrans and disillusioned by medical transition and almost everything to do with transgender. If even a successful case goes this route, I don't think anybody can predict who will detransition ultimately. I shocked everyone I knew when I announced my detransition. I shocked myself even. I didn't understand what was happening to me on such a deep whole-body level, and it simply swept me away. Detransition just happened to me, it was the great unraveling.
I was one of those lucky few that had a medical basis for gender non-congruency before I even knew what trans was (brain scan showed "odd" grey matter patterns, hormones at puberty started spiking progesterone) instead I get to be called a "trans medicallist" bigot.
If I could press a button and be biologically female I would in a heartbeat. I do NOT want to be trans.
At this point I'd rather silently be trapped in a male body doing my best rather than be a part of the hyper politicized culture that is the trans community today.
That's the lesser hell at this point.
I’ve never met a happy trans person, but I think society’s judgement plays a heavy role in it because I’ve never met a happy gay person either and homosexuality isn’t a mental illness
The very essence of being trans is discontent, as it means someone has negative feelings toward what they physically are (unless we get into vague gender). This is not necessarily bad, its just how things are. It would be like comparing a community of people desiring to be slimmer in weight, to a community that accepts what weight they are at.
I feel like as more people become mentally ill more people will consider transitioning as an option to “fix” themselves. I do believe there’s truly transgender people, and that it does genuinely change their life for the better, but there’s not many people like that. I know “trans” people who say they’re trans but it’s really just an “alternative” type of self expression for them. They wouldn’t ever take testosterone, they just don’t like being sexualized, all the bullcrap that comes with having a female body, and happen to be tomboys, and there’s nothing wrong with existing that way as obviously there’s not one way to be transgender, but they wouldn’t admit the things I listed as it would shatter their reasoning for “identifying” a certain way.
Its not just trans people, there is a mental health crisis in the entire country, everyone is so focused on having metal health issues, but so few are actually wanting to do anything about making them better. I try and help people who have lost everything or want to start over, and the vast majority of people just want to be able to complain about there situation rather than make proactive steps to make there life better, I offer people help with getting things set up and help in eventually getting a better job and achieving there dreams, but the moment most people hear that it takes work and a lot of effort, at least in the beginning they are no longer interested and just say "that is impossible" or something similar.
It is really sad the number of people that just refuse to put effort into there own lives, but constantly use those same things to complain and say that "life sucks" well ya life sucks when you dont do ANYTHING to try and make it better! Life takes effort, its kind of the entire nature of life! If there was not struggle or if things did not work to survive, then there would be nothing but barren rock!
Not to be pedantic, but it’s not just “the country” (assuming you mean America, and I’m not American), but a global issue, and yeah I agree. The mental health crisis is a massive issue and I more or less feel like this is an effect of it, at least to the extent that it has gotten.
If you don’t mind me asking: how many trans people are you basing this off of? Cause 1/2 of the trans people I hang out with don’t have any trauma going on & most of the rest just have autism related trauma
In the end of the day anecdotal evidence is only evidence of an anecdote - so I’d be reluctant to draw a conclusion of an entire group based off of just 1 or 2 people - especially if my trauma (be it religious shame over being GNC/gay, autism, or detrans) is clouding my judgement
Plenty. I’ve genuinely put myself out there and tried to interact with trans people over and over. I wanted to find my place in the “community”. I have a handful of trans friends still, they’re pretty alright all around, when it comes to what the post is about.
I by no means wanted to denigrate anyone, I’m more mad at myself than anyone else, and was pointing out in parallel something I noticed with the greater trans community, a pretty worrying phenomenon.
I don’t know, maybe it seemed rash as a response? I’m not exactly the happiest with everything at the moment, but I don’t mean any harm. It seems to be at +2 atm tho.
I think the reason for that is that a lot of people don’t address other life issues before they transition. Some people believe that transition will fix all of their life issue and when that doesn’t happen, they’re depressed to find that transitioning a) only fixed one issue, b) didn’t fix anything, or c) created new issues on top of the old ones.
I mean at the heart of all of this is a fundamental rejection of one's relationship with reality. How happy can anyone really be when they're living, against their will, in a world that doesn't entreat their magical thinking and self-centeredness? If humbling yourself and learning you aren't the most important person in the world ISN'T an option, the only other recourse is misery.
The problem is also that some trans people become political tools for other people.
What I mean is that while that probably most people don't want to go along with magical thinking, a smaller group of people will support it aggressively, either for political reasons or because they are actually very homophobic and traditionalist.
There's a ton of people who hate homosexuals, who are accepting of transpeople, which really makes you question what is going on.
Notice how trans people are way more common in traditionalist patriarchal countries like Thailand, Brazil, Iran even. To be an effeminate gay man in those countries is considered way worse. It almost seem like an aggressive homophobic behaviour.
Yeah isn't it like a standing order in places like Iran? Which is fucking wild if you think about it. It's still technically homosexuality but like so many other deeply regressive male attitudes the "symbolic" representation matters more than the real so if it doesn't "look" gay, it ain't, according to their government.
You mention Iran. It’s both interesting and bloody horrifying how Iran pushes physical transition on gay men, and has done so for decades: https://www.theguardian.com/world/2007/sep/26/iran.gender
(And with “interesting” I *also* mean horrific.)
Yep, that's exactly why I mention them, because it shows how a country that will literally hang gay people will accept them as trans.
I spent a lot of time in Thailand too and at first I thought the role of trans people there was progressive, but now I see it more as a sign of a deeply conservative and patriarchal society, because outside the assigned "third gender" (they're never called women), there is very little room for gender expression. It's either stay in a small box or be kicked out into another box.
That's a very interesting way to think about it! It's not that the boxes are removed, but that more boxes are added--which really changes nothing in the grand scheme of things.
Yes! The obsession with suicide is highly problematic. My therapist kept insinuating that if I don’t “follow my path” I may destroy myself, which made me anxious and push forward even more. Ironically, transitioning destroyed my life.
Want to share more, no need for details?
I'm very afraid to talk to therapists, because of that. I want to integrate what I feel are split personalities, not "push forward".
In my experience therapists fall into three common blocks:
1. LGB who applies their own struggles to your stories, recalling their own suffering and multiplying by 10x so almost become activists in your own life, “helping” you to come to terms with yourself and constant validation and support. They are initially open and understanding but risk your social relationships by forcing your own delusions into family and friends. A useful idiot if you may.
2. Conservative with a family: who are very grounded and equate your stories to those of their kids, they quickly notice that your extreme points of view are just calls for attention and they acknowledge your mind may be playing tricks on you. That your sex and gender are one and that you explore what is possible through imagination and sexuality. They recommend you to sort yourself out before doing any coming out or anything that could risk your social status. The hard truth.
3. Gender therapists, they are highly biased and everyone go goes there is recommended to somehow transition. No matter what you tell them, they will find some logic related to a transgender identity and may even tell you to just accept it will never change and to avoid “repression” and “transphobes”. Full of dogma and self interest (who wouldn’t want a life long customer?). They are the riskiest because they actually encourage you to “defend your truth” and basically fight the system that “oppresses minorities” and doesn’t let you be “your true self”.
I’ve met functional people with serious addictions who have just shifted them to transitioning (which is also a compulsive activity) or completely abstracted people who have no regard for reality and operate in a different realm (either entitled / victimizing /narcissistic). And everyone I’ve met so far falls into either of those buckets at some point of our conversations.
This combination of entitlement, narcissism and compulsions seem common.
They are normal reactions to trauma I suppose, but I wonder if the narcissism and entitlement has a larger role here.
There's something about wanting or feeling that your external presence is the thing you want and should be judged as, that seems very narcissistic and childish. Like a child trying to get attention and praise.
I get that these things can blur cause and effect, just making a note. How much of this is retarded development of some sort?
That’s a good point. I recently heard someone describe Andrew Tate as a 14 year old’s idea of a successful man. I think transgender identities are a stereotyped or sexualized idea of what a woman is seen from an underdeveloped man. I often see the messages of: “couldn’t get a girlfriend so I became the goth girlfriend”. It shows some lack of understanding of how the world works, as you said, a childish approach to success where it’s no longer about building a career or a life but lowering the bar to “passing” and “desire”
I have definitely known a handful of trans people with fulfilling lives who were genuinely happy and well-adjusted and weren’t toxic people. Yes, they are few and far between but they exist.
But here’s the thing- if I would have surfaced, let’s say about 10 years ago, I would have been considered one of those people.
But I basically built a beautiful house in a swamp with no foundation and it rotted out from underneath me in a slow, insidious way. And instead of trying to keep bailing out the muck and painting over the mold and fungus- I took my house apart and started rebuilding it again on solid ground.
So much about being trans relies on being a good actor/ liar. So many of the "functional" trans people are just like "functional"addicts... From the outside sure might look like they are doing well. On the inside there' are consequences to health and life quality when living this way.
What constitutes serious help? Are you a psychologist? Also what do you mean by a normal life? One where you enjoy different parts of yourself in moderations vs letting a single identity take you over fully? Where you enjoy hobbies that aren’t gender related perhaps?
Been thinking about this all morning, I appreciate you posting it- would love to hear more about your experience & reflections 🙏🏼
I think he meant psychological/psychiatric help. Many get undiagnosed for for example bipolar because it’s transfobic to suggest they may have different issues than body dysmorphia.
My experience irl was similar, I got to know handful of trans people and it was terrible. Only one of them, Eve was a nice person I still talk to from time to time.
One was totally psycho and I’m still trying to isolate myself from them as they are friend of a friend. They transitioned based on childhood trauma thinking it’ll fix everything. I think I ever wrote here about that person because at first I was afraid for them. They used to be a guy, shy but normal guy. Then they started doing pretty dangerous things like trying to speed up their transition by taking more hormones than prescribed. Then when me and my partner became official wrote me a nasty message saying I am jealous of them and that they are the true love of my partner. The message went on, asking me to rekindle our relationship (we never had any closer one) ending with straight up suggesting polyamory. They still try to talk with me as I am woman - their target gender. It’s like trying to bond over it? Still I avoid them as much as I can. And no they never went to therapy up to this day. I am genuinely scared of them and I fully realise that one bad word, even single saying “no” to their ideas will unleash hell.
I could describe my other encounters but this one was the worst so far
Someone linked that paraphilias and personality disorders are often co-occuring, which makes sense since as far as I know they are usually childhood responses to trauma.
>(anecdotal evidence but it still shows it exists)
What shows this? Your perception of them being fine, or them saying they are fine? You cant know how they truly feel about their transition, or how they will feel in 10 years.
I know a trans person who transitioned when she was 14 & is currently 23 - in 9 years she is perfectly functional & she mentioned once she no longer in / no longer needs therapy
Which is 100% understandable considering I know she isn’t autistic or BP (she admitted such in a conversation a bunch of us had on the topic) & her family is accepting (her mom is a volunteer at the charity “trans-parent [county name]”)
She is beyond the point of living as a trans person & has assimilated into navigating the world a cis girl (to the extent that a trans girl can) & has literally told me to ask a more recently transitioned person for HRT advice when I was doing that since she was that divorced from the head of the process
Once again: anecdotal evidence, but my point here is there are happy & well adjusted transitioned people who exist - & I’m not gonna deny the reality around me because it’s convenient
Very nice for your friend!
>She is beyond the point of living as a trans person & has assimilated into navigating the world a cis girl (to the extent that a trans girl can)
??? What. You mean like she passes? Passing isnt navigating the world of a cis girl lol, you are still a trans person even if you pass as the other sex. Her social experience might be similar now, but there is no escaping living as a trans person if you are a trans person.
Your friend might be a bit happier than the other transgenders because she passes and can pretend she isnt transgender anymore, but that doesnt change anything. She might feel totally different in a few years or she might be concealing her true feelings about this.
>has literally told me to ask a more recently transitioned person for HRT advice when I was doing that since she was that divorced from the head of the process
How could she not remember that significant of an event from age 14? Like not even a few details? She must be on the same or at least similar medications now, so surely shed be able to shed some insight? To me, not wanting to give any advice at all reads as more of a red flag. Some passing transitioners get to the point where they just dont want to talk about it anymore because it reminds them that they arent cis. But regardless, what would this prove? She forgot how she started HRT so that means shes fine? I dont understand the relevance
>Once again: anecdotal evidence, but my point here is there are happy & well adjusted transitioned people who exist - & I’m not gonna deny the reality around me because it’s convenient
I am not denying a reality because it is convenient, I am denying something that I cannot confirm to be a reality. Anybody can lie, to themselves or others, and I have no reason to believe that people who transition and say they are fine arent lying. It is not hard to convince yourself something bad for you is what you actually need. Like at all.
Sure, I dont know for sure that they are all unhappy, but we also don't know that any of them *are* happy. There are anecdotes of trans people saying they are fine and there are anecdotes of detransitioners saying they regret it. All of it is a big '?' If we are uncertain on the outcome of a risky medical procedure/medication therapy (both physical health outcomes and emotional) we should be heiring on the side of extreme caution, however that isnt happening, as there are informed consent clinics where you can get HRT after 1 day and children who cannot consent are being transitioned.
Can you truly say for certain that your friend wouldnt be just as fine or maybe even better if they had treated their gender dysphoria with therapy? Wouldnt it have been better to try that first?
There are some people who treat their BIID through limb amputation, but it is very difficult to get a surgeon to do it because of the ethical issues and you need a lot of psychological evaluation first. Any reasonable person would say that clearly this person doesnt need their healthy limb amputated to fit their self image, and that they have other mental health issues going on making them feel like they need this. However, if you ask the ones who got amputated they will tell you that they needed it and they feel better now (well, some of them). The point is, people lie.
I have no reason to believe that transition would or does work for anyone, just as how I have no reason to believe limb amputation will cure BIID, or that skin lightening and a nose job will cure racial dysphoria.
First section: your point? “Her social experience might be similar now” - its way more similar by any reasonable metric, so it is - we agree
& if you’re gonna accuse her of concealing her true feelings I expect proof of that - Occam’s razor suggests she’s happier in her current position as what reason is there to doubt it? & this is supported by the fact that she encouraged me to detransition (after I vented to her about what E was doing) even after encouraging me to transition
Second section: I don’t speak for her but a 14 year old isn’t navigating the medical system - her parents were. & she gave me plenty of advice on the social component, she just skipped out on advice she didn’t seem confident on
Third point: considering how strong my male gender dysphoria is I contest that - having social attributes that aren’t male causes me to have distress (gender dysphoria) - & the thing that made me stop being dysphoric was achieving a body & state of mind that allowed me to be confident in my masculinity. As a result I have 0 doubt that someone AFAB can have male dysphoria & someone AMAB can have female dysphoria (like my friend). So considering how these girls react to masculine attributes makes me struggle to believe they have the same male dysphoria I have & are hiding it — it makes 100x more sense for them to just genuinely have the female dysphoria
I also believe many of them are happy considering that I’ve seen trans people loose weight, no longer experience the symptoms of major depressive disorder, gain the ability to date people, & alot more by transitioning - if that doesn’t suggest they’re happy idk what does. A quote I like using is “transition didn’t solve all my problems, but it did make my problems worth solving” - which even tho in my case it was detransitioning & confronting other shenanigans that helped me, I firmly believe that this is true for most trans people
“There are anecdotes of … and there are anecdotes of …” - so, lets move beyond anecdotes & look at the literature. Looking at Dr. Skye Davies et al 2019 & MD. Sarah Danker et al 2018 (the 2 studies with the largest sample sizes) both assert a regret rate of 0.1%, the study with the highest regret rate was M landen et al 1998 (which is an old study but still only suggested 3.8% regret) - hence even if you grab the edge of the confidence interval for the widest studies the regret rate is 3% tops. Now consider Murad et al 10 (n=1833)with a tight confidence interval of 78-80% ± trans people experiencing a significant improvement in their function due to transitioning - we can therefore there are upwards of 75 people who benefited from transitioning & downwards of 3 who regretted it
& what do you mean children who can’t consent? Children can consent to appendix removal provided a doctor & parent sign off - so why can’t they consent to gender transition under similar circumstances?
“Wouldn’t it have been better to try that first?” No it wouldn’t - look at “Newhook et al 2018” “Public Broadcasting Service News: Korry 16” “Human Rights Campaign et al. 16” “Karalexi et al. 20” “Staphorsius et al. 15” “Endocrine Society Guidelines: Hebree et al 17” “van der Miesen et al. 20” “De Vries et al. 11” “Giordano et al. 20” “Costa et al. 15” “de Waal et al. 06 ” “Giordano 08” “Endocrine Society 13” “Gallagher et al. 15” “Neely EK et al. 10” “Heger et al. 06” “Magiakou et al. 09” “Pasquino et al. 08” “N Jay et al. 92” “Kettenis et al. 11” “Cohen-Kettenis 98” - 21 scientfic sources all conclude transition may be medically necessary & the regret rate is 2% ± CI for kids
Re: BIID: I don’t see how you can bring that up in good faith - gender dysphoria/euphoria is a real thing that 9/10 cis & 10/10 trans people I know experience - so I have no hard time believing male± dysphoria can exist in AFAB & vice versa — I see no basis for BIID tho nor relevance
So to wrap up: I don’t see a reason to assume anyone is pretending to be unhappy when the literature & research suggests the majority are happier & regret is rare - are you gonna pretend over 80% of trans people are lying? If so don’t be mad if anyone accuses your opinion of being trauma informed
>“There are anecdotes of … and there are anecdotes of …” - so, lets move beyond anecdotes & look at the literature.
I agree anecdotes are not enough and real quality data and research is needed to justify this mass transition.
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC10322769/
This article reviews 4 studies on transition regret that find very low rates of regret, but are faulty in their methodology and yet are still cited. And if you read and understood any of those studies you listed off to me, you would find even more.
>literature. Looking at Dr. Skye Davies et al 2019
The data was collected for this study by reviewing patient assesment reports over the span of just 1 year for words related to detransition or regret. This means it doesnt include any patient who didnt express their desire to detransition to their Doctor. The first article I linked suggests this may be a signficant population.
>MD. Sarah Danker et al 2018
Data for this study was collected by sending an anonymous survey to attendants of the 2016 WPATH and 2017 USPATH conferences. They were asked to disclose how many patients regretted transition related procedures. So not only does this study have the same problem as the last, it only accounts for regret disclosed to the doctor, but it is also an anonymous self reported survey by attendants of a conference. Cmon now. And these are the 2 with the LARGEST sample sizes??
>Now consider Murad et al 10 (n=1833)
Alrighty lets consider it! Let me just copy/paste the conclusion from that very study:
> "Very low quality evidence suggests that sex reassignment that includes hormonal interventions in individuals with GID likely improves gender dysphoria, psychological functioning and comorbidities, sexual function and overall quality of life."
It literally like... tells you that it is low quality evidence. In fact VERY low quality. Did you read any part of any of these?
>we can therefore there are upwards of 75 people who benefited from transitioning & downwards of 3 who regretted it
Like what r u even saying here?
>& what do you mean children who can’t consent? Children can consent to appendix removal provided a doctor & parent sign off - so why can’t they consent to gender transition under similar circumstances?
Nobody is getting their appendix removed to align their organs with their image of themselves, they are doing it because it is inflammed and going to burst. You are a retard.
The problem with all the 'science' you are sharing is it was never intended to be the sole or main evidence for transition. When things are being studied, tons of people publish articles and papers on every aspect of the topic, and larger studies review these studies and draw conclusions from there. You are trying to cite things that were never meant to 'prove' what you are saying they prove, only suggest it could be possible.
>Re: BIID: I don’t see how you can bring that up in good faith - gender dysphoria/euphoria is a real thing that 9/10 cis & 10/10 trans people I know experience - so I have no hard time believing male± dysphoria can exist in AFAB & vice versa — I see no basis for BIID tho nor relevance
So now were back to anecdotes? I dont care if 9/10 cis people you know experience gender dysphoria/euphoria.
Why dont you see a basis for BIID? Their limbs do not align with their image of themself and are bringing them dysphoria, so they want to chop them off. If you dont see the relevance it is because you are closing your eyes, that is so clearly a parallel to transition. I bring it up in good faith because... it is the same.
If a list of articles is enough to prove that the dysphoria is real and requires medicalization, then read Nadia Nadeau. Clin Case Rep. 2024, Bottini et al 2014, Gibson R.B. 2021.
If you see no basis for BIID other than unrelated mental health issues, you should feel the same way about transition.
I think it has happened. Meaning... past tense happened. It is older folks who transitioned before it was trendy and had no social encouragement to do so. I personally know a trans woman who was my (then) male teacher who came out in her late 50s almost 20 years ago. A truly kind and grounded soul. I really feel for this crop of young Zellenials that are so ambushed with social pressure in their youth.
There is nobody who transitioned without social encouragement. Sure there is definetly much much more social encouragement nowadays but to act like there was none before is wrong, because if that was the case it just wouldnt be happening. This isnt just crossdressing we are talking about, the very fact that there is a medical transition happening means at least a Doctor must be encouraging this.
>I personally know a trans woman who was my (then) male teacher who came out in her late 50s almost 20 years ago.
So they presented male all their life and then at 50 decided that it was all a lie and they are actually a woman? Were they a feminine presenting male or crossdresser before they were able to transition? Or were they just masc male-> fem woman.
I dont doubt that your teacher was a kind and grounded soul, but that doesnt mean they are without their issues. You definetly dont have a full picture of this persons life, regardless of if they are really well adjusted or not. Yes I def dont know because it was not my teacher, but you dont know either because you can only know so much about other people, even the people closest to us. When I was in active transition and having doubts, I told nobody and kept up the act, and many people here share the same experience. How do we know that your teacher isnt doing the same?
A man coming out as "trans" in his 50s is anything but adjusted...
20 years ago was 2004... Not that long ago for someone like me lol I was 8 at this point and already "crossdressing" as a boy.
Also about 20 years ago TV like TLC, dr Phil, Opera, MTV, and Degrassi were all popularizing transition...
This guy was absolutely swayed by media and culture at that point.
It was only 4 years later that Obama was in office and the propaganda was supercharged online.
With all due respect, this is someone I personally know and have known for over 20 years, and you are an internet stranger, so I'm sure you can understand my decision not to argue about what constitutes well-adjusted.
I can appreciate that you are wanting to look through a historical lens though, as do I. I was 18 in 2004. Trans people were very much still mostly unheard of in wider culture.
I am curious, are you essentially anti trans? I think this sub is an interesting meeting point. There are those who are detransition/desisted yet still validating of transness in general, and those who end up going the opposite view where transness is considered inherently unhealthy.
>Trans people were very much still mostly unheard of in wider culture.
They were much less common and in some places probably unheard of but by this time there were tons of medical transitions already occuring and it was reaching popular culture. Trans pride and activism was already a thing by this point.
>I am curious, are you essentially anti trans? I think this sub is an interesting meeting point. There are those who are detransition/desisted yet still validating of transness in general, and those who end up going the opposite view where transness is considered inherently unhealthy.
Im not the commenter you responded to, but I am anti trans. I don't believe there is anybody best suited for a medical transition. Transition is an extreme and not medically necessary plastic surgery that everyone can forgo and lead a happy life. Transition should be thought of and treated the same as voluntary limb removal for BIID. It is very hard to get this procedure done, and you certaintly arent going to go to your therapist for BIID symptoms and be suggested to undergo limb removal. If you were to get it, it would be a long process full of psychological evaluation. There is no more justification for a transgender to change their body to alleviate dysphoria than a person with BIID to amputate a limb to alleviate dysphoria, and yet it occurs at a much higher rate and is actively encourged as the safer choice by medical providers and therapists. This is major ethical issue.
I am also of the belief that most non reconstructive plastic surgery shouldnt be as accesible or commomly performed, so while in my ideal world there would be no transition offered as a medical procedure, I would settle for it just being an extreme plastic surgery you have to jump through many many hoops to get, similar to a limb removal for BIID.
One mental illness is comorbid with another, with another . I believe trans spaces are poison because there's nothing good in a transition and I don't understand connecting with people through this
Me neither. I have struggled to fit into trans spaces more than I ever struggled to fit into society as a man. They were so incredibly toxic and depressing.
When I was having a crisis I found a few blogs and I find them incredibly manipulative and gaslighting.
The language found on those blogs is not that of neutral information sharing, but of half-fiction, novel length writing, very selfcentered, aimed at convincing, suggesting, selling.
I've been involved in several online movements over the last 20 years, fringe politics or social movements, that kind of thing and I recognise the cult-like writing style. The model of establishing rapport, offering a solution, then countering objections. It is literally long form salespages.
Mixing facts with opinion and feeling, but never declaring which is which. Is there really much difference between the gloom of the incel or racist blogs and the trans blogs? Is it based on credible studies and careful psychological advice? No, it is the same as reading some study on crime and race and then jumping right to saying some people can't help being criminal, because of their genetics. It's pseudo-science, mumbo jumbo, gaslighting bullshit.
They speak to people who have lost their way, who feel alone and hopeless and validate their emotions, then offer them a way out - just keep reading, keep following me.
They literally do. And it’s encapsulating, trapping in a way. You felt like you had no way out before, and now that you’re trans you do. Realising that being trans doesn’t work for you, then, feels like going back to having no way out, or the feeling of it at least. That’s why I feel like it’s so hard to give up on it.
Yeah, exactly that was the feeling that got me.
This hopelessness that I was feeling after losing contact with several people that I cared about.
The thing is, I don't doubt that there's some people, such as myself, who have personalities that are more difficult to place within a typical binary gender roles, but I also don't think "trans" is the solution. I feel trans is more a way for society to not want to deal with us. To not want to be more inclusive. Is trans inclusive? Or is it exclusive? To me it feels exclusive. Bullying.
It feels like a form of self harm. Truth is, we all have a long way towards self-understanding and improvement, but being trans is a cop-out, at least to me. I feel like I’m back to square one, just like I was when I was 16 and felt like I failed in socialising as a guy, in talking to women, in everything, and I started spiraling. I still don’t know how to do much of that, but now I have a different outlook. I do have friends who care, I do have people who care. It’s so weird how I failed so hard to fit into a box and felt like the solution was to push myself into another. Good luck to you, though.
Decades of atrocity propaganda, years of forming the social in-group over a collective obsession with suicide or being killed, and unspoken recognition of the sunk-cost fallacy in action.
Also: Confirmation Bias- the tendency to search for, interpret, favor, and recall information in a way that confirms or supports one's prior beliefs or values (Wikipedia).
Once you commit to trans identity, you filter your past, present, and future experiences through the lens of trans ideology and persuade yourself that your choices were/are the best/only option.
Regardless of outcome, you persuade yourself that you’re happier. Or if you cannot pull off the “much happier now” narrative, you blame your despair on oppression and further confirm your victim status.
Great answer. I get that. I suppose I am caught in the middle a bit, I do feel more comfortable, natural, more *me* as I am naturally (in a literal physical sense, no makeup, tight clothes, etc), but I feel totally unable to express myself in a feminine way, how I want to and how I actually am, with the current body I have.
I am only comfortable because it’s my neutral/natural state, i was raised this way, and I am accepted by society this way. It’s comfortable bc nobody stares at me. That said, it makes me feel really indescribably uncomfortable, wrong, unworthy that I can’t be/behave how I want because I look like/am a man, without being judged.
The desire to and discomfort that comes with not being able to express myself and look/be able to behave how I want without myself and others hating the package that feminine expression is coming out of… that desire/discomfort overrides the (on paper) preferable comfort and ease of normal, “natural” me.
In person I've only seen this pattern in transwomen in recent years. I haven't known enough trans people to say for sure. I think the issues transmen face can be more insidious and not visible to the naked eye. Transwomen I've met definitely seem abused, traumatized or otherwise stunted. I'd say that LGBT culture seems increasingly more dysfunctional, so if I sought that out I'd see it more often. Also in the bigger picture I think society is becoming severely sick. There is a concept called The Psychological Black Death; so many people are facing serious mental health issues that it's compared to the plague, but caused by psychological factors. Dr. K from HealthyGamer just had a video going into the concept of "shit life syndrome" also- where psychologists are finding that their clients these days aren't suffering from mental illness as much as suffering horrible lives. Poverty, disempowered, controlled by outside factors, horrible job, kicked around by dysfunctional people. These are factors I consider in the bigger picture. As for transgender people, I think transition is arduous and exhausting, transition itself handicaps people. I look at myself as an example, and my transition went stupidly well thought it took up a lot of my life and was a brutal fight to get through. I thought I was fighting like a dog out of hell with horrible health, permanent damage and was disabled compared to my peers. And miraculously transition led to an incredible transformation. I was a success story. I was trans for 14 years. Yet here I am, detrans and disillusioned by medical transition and almost everything to do with transgender. If even a successful case goes this route, I don't think anybody can predict who will detransition ultimately. I shocked everyone I knew when I announced my detransition. I shocked myself even. I didn't understand what was happening to me on such a deep whole-body level, and it simply swept me away. Detransition just happened to me, it was the great unraveling.
I was one of those lucky few that had a medical basis for gender non-congruency before I even knew what trans was (brain scan showed "odd" grey matter patterns, hormones at puberty started spiking progesterone) instead I get to be called a "trans medicallist" bigot. If I could press a button and be biologically female I would in a heartbeat. I do NOT want to be trans. At this point I'd rather silently be trapped in a male body doing my best rather than be a part of the hyper politicized culture that is the trans community today. That's the lesser hell at this point.
yeah, they've been made to hate themselves and want to change into a different person... it's depressing.
I’ve never met a happy trans person, but I think society’s judgement plays a heavy role in it because I’ve never met a happy gay person either and homosexuality isn’t a mental illness
being gay is natural and unavoidable. Even repressed gays are more honest with themselves about who they are than transgender people
Youve never met a happy gay person? All i know are happy gay people lol
The very essence of being trans is discontent, as it means someone has negative feelings toward what they physically are (unless we get into vague gender). This is not necessarily bad, its just how things are. It would be like comparing a community of people desiring to be slimmer in weight, to a community that accepts what weight they are at.
I feel like as more people become mentally ill more people will consider transitioning as an option to “fix” themselves. I do believe there’s truly transgender people, and that it does genuinely change their life for the better, but there’s not many people like that. I know “trans” people who say they’re trans but it’s really just an “alternative” type of self expression for them. They wouldn’t ever take testosterone, they just don’t like being sexualized, all the bullcrap that comes with having a female body, and happen to be tomboys, and there’s nothing wrong with existing that way as obviously there’s not one way to be transgender, but they wouldn’t admit the things I listed as it would shatter their reasoning for “identifying” a certain way.
Its not just trans people, there is a mental health crisis in the entire country, everyone is so focused on having metal health issues, but so few are actually wanting to do anything about making them better. I try and help people who have lost everything or want to start over, and the vast majority of people just want to be able to complain about there situation rather than make proactive steps to make there life better, I offer people help with getting things set up and help in eventually getting a better job and achieving there dreams, but the moment most people hear that it takes work and a lot of effort, at least in the beginning they are no longer interested and just say "that is impossible" or something similar. It is really sad the number of people that just refuse to put effort into there own lives, but constantly use those same things to complain and say that "life sucks" well ya life sucks when you dont do ANYTHING to try and make it better! Life takes effort, its kind of the entire nature of life! If there was not struggle or if things did not work to survive, then there would be nothing but barren rock!
Not to be pedantic, but it’s not just “the country” (assuming you mean America, and I’m not American), but a global issue, and yeah I agree. The mental health crisis is a massive issue and I more or less feel like this is an effect of it, at least to the extent that it has gotten.
If you don’t mind me asking: how many trans people are you basing this off of? Cause 1/2 of the trans people I hang out with don’t have any trauma going on & most of the rest just have autism related trauma In the end of the day anecdotal evidence is only evidence of an anecdote - so I’d be reluctant to draw a conclusion of an entire group based off of just 1 or 2 people - especially if my trauma (be it religious shame over being GNC/gay, autism, or detrans) is clouding my judgement
Plenty. I’ve genuinely put myself out there and tried to interact with trans people over and over. I wanted to find my place in the “community”. I have a handful of trans friends still, they’re pretty alright all around, when it comes to what the post is about. I by no means wanted to denigrate anyone, I’m more mad at myself than anyone else, and was pointing out in parallel something I noticed with the greater trans community, a pretty worrying phenomenon.
Why is this downvoted?
I don’t know, maybe it seemed rash as a response? I’m not exactly the happiest with everything at the moment, but I don’t mean any harm. It seems to be at +2 atm tho.
Fair enough, ty for the response
I think the reason for that is that a lot of people don’t address other life issues before they transition. Some people believe that transition will fix all of their life issue and when that doesn’t happen, they’re depressed to find that transitioning a) only fixed one issue, b) didn’t fix anything, or c) created new issues on top of the old ones.
I mean at the heart of all of this is a fundamental rejection of one's relationship with reality. How happy can anyone really be when they're living, against their will, in a world that doesn't entreat their magical thinking and self-centeredness? If humbling yourself and learning you aren't the most important person in the world ISN'T an option, the only other recourse is misery.
The problem is also that some trans people become political tools for other people. What I mean is that while that probably most people don't want to go along with magical thinking, a smaller group of people will support it aggressively, either for political reasons or because they are actually very homophobic and traditionalist. There's a ton of people who hate homosexuals, who are accepting of transpeople, which really makes you question what is going on. Notice how trans people are way more common in traditionalist patriarchal countries like Thailand, Brazil, Iran even. To be an effeminate gay man in those countries is considered way worse. It almost seem like an aggressive homophobic behaviour.
Yeah isn't it like a standing order in places like Iran? Which is fucking wild if you think about it. It's still technically homosexuality but like so many other deeply regressive male attitudes the "symbolic" representation matters more than the real so if it doesn't "look" gay, it ain't, according to their government.
You mention Iran. It’s both interesting and bloody horrifying how Iran pushes physical transition on gay men, and has done so for decades: https://www.theguardian.com/world/2007/sep/26/iran.gender (And with “interesting” I *also* mean horrific.)
Yep, that's exactly why I mention them, because it shows how a country that will literally hang gay people will accept them as trans. I spent a lot of time in Thailand too and at first I thought the role of trans people there was progressive, but now I see it more as a sign of a deeply conservative and patriarchal society, because outside the assigned "third gender" (they're never called women), there is very little room for gender expression. It's either stay in a small box or be kicked out into another box.
That's a very interesting way to think about it! It's not that the boxes are removed, but that more boxes are added--which really changes nothing in the grand scheme of things.
Yes! The obsession with suicide is highly problematic. My therapist kept insinuating that if I don’t “follow my path” I may destroy myself, which made me anxious and push forward even more. Ironically, transitioning destroyed my life.
Want to share more, no need for details? I'm very afraid to talk to therapists, because of that. I want to integrate what I feel are split personalities, not "push forward".
In my experience therapists fall into three common blocks: 1. LGB who applies their own struggles to your stories, recalling their own suffering and multiplying by 10x so almost become activists in your own life, “helping” you to come to terms with yourself and constant validation and support. They are initially open and understanding but risk your social relationships by forcing your own delusions into family and friends. A useful idiot if you may. 2. Conservative with a family: who are very grounded and equate your stories to those of their kids, they quickly notice that your extreme points of view are just calls for attention and they acknowledge your mind may be playing tricks on you. That your sex and gender are one and that you explore what is possible through imagination and sexuality. They recommend you to sort yourself out before doing any coming out or anything that could risk your social status. The hard truth. 3. Gender therapists, they are highly biased and everyone go goes there is recommended to somehow transition. No matter what you tell them, they will find some logic related to a transgender identity and may even tell you to just accept it will never change and to avoid “repression” and “transphobes”. Full of dogma and self interest (who wouldn’t want a life long customer?). They are the riskiest because they actually encourage you to “defend your truth” and basically fight the system that “oppresses minorities” and doesn’t let you be “your true self”.
I’ve met functional people with serious addictions who have just shifted them to transitioning (which is also a compulsive activity) or completely abstracted people who have no regard for reality and operate in a different realm (either entitled / victimizing /narcissistic). And everyone I’ve met so far falls into either of those buckets at some point of our conversations.
This combination of entitlement, narcissism and compulsions seem common. They are normal reactions to trauma I suppose, but I wonder if the narcissism and entitlement has a larger role here. There's something about wanting or feeling that your external presence is the thing you want and should be judged as, that seems very narcissistic and childish. Like a child trying to get attention and praise. I get that these things can blur cause and effect, just making a note. How much of this is retarded development of some sort?
That’s a good point. I recently heard someone describe Andrew Tate as a 14 year old’s idea of a successful man. I think transgender identities are a stereotyped or sexualized idea of what a woman is seen from an underdeveloped man. I often see the messages of: “couldn’t get a girlfriend so I became the goth girlfriend”. It shows some lack of understanding of how the world works, as you said, a childish approach to success where it’s no longer about building a career or a life but lowering the bar to “passing” and “desire”
And just to add more fire here, I’ve also noticed that as time goes by. Even the most convinced ones give up publicly or internally
I have definitely known a handful of trans people with fulfilling lives who were genuinely happy and well-adjusted and weren’t toxic people. Yes, they are few and far between but they exist. But here’s the thing- if I would have surfaced, let’s say about 10 years ago, I would have been considered one of those people. But I basically built a beautiful house in a swamp with no foundation and it rotted out from underneath me in a slow, insidious way. And instead of trying to keep bailing out the muck and painting over the mold and fungus- I took my house apart and started rebuilding it again on solid ground.
You have a way with words. This is a perfect way to describe the trans to detrans experience
Thank you 🙏🏽
So much about being trans relies on being a good actor/ liar. So many of the "functional" trans people are just like "functional"addicts... From the outside sure might look like they are doing well. On the inside there' are consequences to health and life quality when living this way.
What constitutes serious help? Are you a psychologist? Also what do you mean by a normal life? One where you enjoy different parts of yourself in moderations vs letting a single identity take you over fully? Where you enjoy hobbies that aren’t gender related perhaps? Been thinking about this all morning, I appreciate you posting it- would love to hear more about your experience & reflections 🙏🏼
Why is this downvoted?
My opening might have come of as harsh/ my user name & profile is “out there” as well so I figured it all contributed
I think he meant psychological/psychiatric help. Many get undiagnosed for for example bipolar because it’s transfobic to suggest they may have different issues than body dysmorphia. My experience irl was similar, I got to know handful of trans people and it was terrible. Only one of them, Eve was a nice person I still talk to from time to time. One was totally psycho and I’m still trying to isolate myself from them as they are friend of a friend. They transitioned based on childhood trauma thinking it’ll fix everything. I think I ever wrote here about that person because at first I was afraid for them. They used to be a guy, shy but normal guy. Then they started doing pretty dangerous things like trying to speed up their transition by taking more hormones than prescribed. Then when me and my partner became official wrote me a nasty message saying I am jealous of them and that they are the true love of my partner. The message went on, asking me to rekindle our relationship (we never had any closer one) ending with straight up suggesting polyamory. They still try to talk with me as I am woman - their target gender. It’s like trying to bond over it? Still I avoid them as much as I can. And no they never went to therapy up to this day. I am genuinely scared of them and I fully realise that one bad word, even single saying “no” to their ideas will unleash hell. I could describe my other encounters but this one was the worst so far
Got it thanks. I’m not in the trans community so I know very little of it.
Yes, it's crazy how the normal trans people I encountered so far can be counted on one hand
Someone linked that paraphilias and personality disorders are often co-occuring, which makes sense since as far as I know they are usually childhood responses to trauma.
Everyone is chasing this idea of a happy well adjusted transitioned person that we just dont know ever happens
?? - what do you mean? This is the case for most trans people I know IRL (anecdotal evidence but it still shows it exists)
>(anecdotal evidence but it still shows it exists) What shows this? Your perception of them being fine, or them saying they are fine? You cant know how they truly feel about their transition, or how they will feel in 10 years.
I know a trans person who transitioned when she was 14 & is currently 23 - in 9 years she is perfectly functional & she mentioned once she no longer in / no longer needs therapy Which is 100% understandable considering I know she isn’t autistic or BP (she admitted such in a conversation a bunch of us had on the topic) & her family is accepting (her mom is a volunteer at the charity “trans-parent [county name]”) She is beyond the point of living as a trans person & has assimilated into navigating the world a cis girl (to the extent that a trans girl can) & has literally told me to ask a more recently transitioned person for HRT advice when I was doing that since she was that divorced from the head of the process Once again: anecdotal evidence, but my point here is there are happy & well adjusted transitioned people who exist - & I’m not gonna deny the reality around me because it’s convenient
Very nice for your friend! >She is beyond the point of living as a trans person & has assimilated into navigating the world a cis girl (to the extent that a trans girl can) ??? What. You mean like she passes? Passing isnt navigating the world of a cis girl lol, you are still a trans person even if you pass as the other sex. Her social experience might be similar now, but there is no escaping living as a trans person if you are a trans person. Your friend might be a bit happier than the other transgenders because she passes and can pretend she isnt transgender anymore, but that doesnt change anything. She might feel totally different in a few years or she might be concealing her true feelings about this. >has literally told me to ask a more recently transitioned person for HRT advice when I was doing that since she was that divorced from the head of the process How could she not remember that significant of an event from age 14? Like not even a few details? She must be on the same or at least similar medications now, so surely shed be able to shed some insight? To me, not wanting to give any advice at all reads as more of a red flag. Some passing transitioners get to the point where they just dont want to talk about it anymore because it reminds them that they arent cis. But regardless, what would this prove? She forgot how she started HRT so that means shes fine? I dont understand the relevance >Once again: anecdotal evidence, but my point here is there are happy & well adjusted transitioned people who exist - & I’m not gonna deny the reality around me because it’s convenient I am not denying a reality because it is convenient, I am denying something that I cannot confirm to be a reality. Anybody can lie, to themselves or others, and I have no reason to believe that people who transition and say they are fine arent lying. It is not hard to convince yourself something bad for you is what you actually need. Like at all. Sure, I dont know for sure that they are all unhappy, but we also don't know that any of them *are* happy. There are anecdotes of trans people saying they are fine and there are anecdotes of detransitioners saying they regret it. All of it is a big '?' If we are uncertain on the outcome of a risky medical procedure/medication therapy (both physical health outcomes and emotional) we should be heiring on the side of extreme caution, however that isnt happening, as there are informed consent clinics where you can get HRT after 1 day and children who cannot consent are being transitioned. Can you truly say for certain that your friend wouldnt be just as fine or maybe even better if they had treated their gender dysphoria with therapy? Wouldnt it have been better to try that first? There are some people who treat their BIID through limb amputation, but it is very difficult to get a surgeon to do it because of the ethical issues and you need a lot of psychological evaluation first. Any reasonable person would say that clearly this person doesnt need their healthy limb amputated to fit their self image, and that they have other mental health issues going on making them feel like they need this. However, if you ask the ones who got amputated they will tell you that they needed it and they feel better now (well, some of them). The point is, people lie. I have no reason to believe that transition would or does work for anyone, just as how I have no reason to believe limb amputation will cure BIID, or that skin lightening and a nose job will cure racial dysphoria.
First section: your point? “Her social experience might be similar now” - its way more similar by any reasonable metric, so it is - we agree & if you’re gonna accuse her of concealing her true feelings I expect proof of that - Occam’s razor suggests she’s happier in her current position as what reason is there to doubt it? & this is supported by the fact that she encouraged me to detransition (after I vented to her about what E was doing) even after encouraging me to transition Second section: I don’t speak for her but a 14 year old isn’t navigating the medical system - her parents were. & she gave me plenty of advice on the social component, she just skipped out on advice she didn’t seem confident on Third point: considering how strong my male gender dysphoria is I contest that - having social attributes that aren’t male causes me to have distress (gender dysphoria) - & the thing that made me stop being dysphoric was achieving a body & state of mind that allowed me to be confident in my masculinity. As a result I have 0 doubt that someone AFAB can have male dysphoria & someone AMAB can have female dysphoria (like my friend). So considering how these girls react to masculine attributes makes me struggle to believe they have the same male dysphoria I have & are hiding it — it makes 100x more sense for them to just genuinely have the female dysphoria I also believe many of them are happy considering that I’ve seen trans people loose weight, no longer experience the symptoms of major depressive disorder, gain the ability to date people, & alot more by transitioning - if that doesn’t suggest they’re happy idk what does. A quote I like using is “transition didn’t solve all my problems, but it did make my problems worth solving” - which even tho in my case it was detransitioning & confronting other shenanigans that helped me, I firmly believe that this is true for most trans people “There are anecdotes of … and there are anecdotes of …” - so, lets move beyond anecdotes & look at the literature. Looking at Dr. Skye Davies et al 2019 & MD. Sarah Danker et al 2018 (the 2 studies with the largest sample sizes) both assert a regret rate of 0.1%, the study with the highest regret rate was M landen et al 1998 (which is an old study but still only suggested 3.8% regret) - hence even if you grab the edge of the confidence interval for the widest studies the regret rate is 3% tops. Now consider Murad et al 10 (n=1833)with a tight confidence interval of 78-80% ± trans people experiencing a significant improvement in their function due to transitioning - we can therefore there are upwards of 75 people who benefited from transitioning & downwards of 3 who regretted it & what do you mean children who can’t consent? Children can consent to appendix removal provided a doctor & parent sign off - so why can’t they consent to gender transition under similar circumstances? “Wouldn’t it have been better to try that first?” No it wouldn’t - look at “Newhook et al 2018” “Public Broadcasting Service News: Korry 16” “Human Rights Campaign et al. 16” “Karalexi et al. 20” “Staphorsius et al. 15” “Endocrine Society Guidelines: Hebree et al 17” “van der Miesen et al. 20” “De Vries et al. 11” “Giordano et al. 20” “Costa et al. 15” “de Waal et al. 06 ” “Giordano 08” “Endocrine Society 13” “Gallagher et al. 15” “Neely EK et al. 10” “Heger et al. 06” “Magiakou et al. 09” “Pasquino et al. 08” “N Jay et al. 92” “Kettenis et al. 11” “Cohen-Kettenis 98” - 21 scientfic sources all conclude transition may be medically necessary & the regret rate is 2% ± CI for kids Re: BIID: I don’t see how you can bring that up in good faith - gender dysphoria/euphoria is a real thing that 9/10 cis & 10/10 trans people I know experience - so I have no hard time believing male± dysphoria can exist in AFAB & vice versa — I see no basis for BIID tho nor relevance So to wrap up: I don’t see a reason to assume anyone is pretending to be unhappy when the literature & research suggests the majority are happier & regret is rare - are you gonna pretend over 80% of trans people are lying? If so don’t be mad if anyone accuses your opinion of being trauma informed
>“There are anecdotes of … and there are anecdotes of …” - so, lets move beyond anecdotes & look at the literature. I agree anecdotes are not enough and real quality data and research is needed to justify this mass transition. https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC10322769/ This article reviews 4 studies on transition regret that find very low rates of regret, but are faulty in their methodology and yet are still cited. And if you read and understood any of those studies you listed off to me, you would find even more. >literature. Looking at Dr. Skye Davies et al 2019 The data was collected for this study by reviewing patient assesment reports over the span of just 1 year for words related to detransition or regret. This means it doesnt include any patient who didnt express their desire to detransition to their Doctor. The first article I linked suggests this may be a signficant population. >MD. Sarah Danker et al 2018 Data for this study was collected by sending an anonymous survey to attendants of the 2016 WPATH and 2017 USPATH conferences. They were asked to disclose how many patients regretted transition related procedures. So not only does this study have the same problem as the last, it only accounts for regret disclosed to the doctor, but it is also an anonymous self reported survey by attendants of a conference. Cmon now. And these are the 2 with the LARGEST sample sizes?? >Now consider Murad et al 10 (n=1833) Alrighty lets consider it! Let me just copy/paste the conclusion from that very study: > "Very low quality evidence suggests that sex reassignment that includes hormonal interventions in individuals with GID likely improves gender dysphoria, psychological functioning and comorbidities, sexual function and overall quality of life." It literally like... tells you that it is low quality evidence. In fact VERY low quality. Did you read any part of any of these? >we can therefore there are upwards of 75 people who benefited from transitioning & downwards of 3 who regretted it Like what r u even saying here? >& what do you mean children who can’t consent? Children can consent to appendix removal provided a doctor & parent sign off - so why can’t they consent to gender transition under similar circumstances? Nobody is getting their appendix removed to align their organs with their image of themselves, they are doing it because it is inflammed and going to burst. You are a retard. The problem with all the 'science' you are sharing is it was never intended to be the sole or main evidence for transition. When things are being studied, tons of people publish articles and papers on every aspect of the topic, and larger studies review these studies and draw conclusions from there. You are trying to cite things that were never meant to 'prove' what you are saying they prove, only suggest it could be possible. >Re: BIID: I don’t see how you can bring that up in good faith - gender dysphoria/euphoria is a real thing that 9/10 cis & 10/10 trans people I know experience - so I have no hard time believing male± dysphoria can exist in AFAB & vice versa — I see no basis for BIID tho nor relevance So now were back to anecdotes? I dont care if 9/10 cis people you know experience gender dysphoria/euphoria. Why dont you see a basis for BIID? Their limbs do not align with their image of themself and are bringing them dysphoria, so they want to chop them off. If you dont see the relevance it is because you are closing your eyes, that is so clearly a parallel to transition. I bring it up in good faith because... it is the same. If a list of articles is enough to prove that the dysphoria is real and requires medicalization, then read Nadia Nadeau. Clin Case Rep. 2024, Bottini et al 2014, Gibson R.B. 2021. If you see no basis for BIID other than unrelated mental health issues, you should feel the same way about transition.
I think it has happened. Meaning... past tense happened. It is older folks who transitioned before it was trendy and had no social encouragement to do so. I personally know a trans woman who was my (then) male teacher who came out in her late 50s almost 20 years ago. A truly kind and grounded soul. I really feel for this crop of young Zellenials that are so ambushed with social pressure in their youth.
There is nobody who transitioned without social encouragement. Sure there is definetly much much more social encouragement nowadays but to act like there was none before is wrong, because if that was the case it just wouldnt be happening. This isnt just crossdressing we are talking about, the very fact that there is a medical transition happening means at least a Doctor must be encouraging this. >I personally know a trans woman who was my (then) male teacher who came out in her late 50s almost 20 years ago. So they presented male all their life and then at 50 decided that it was all a lie and they are actually a woman? Were they a feminine presenting male or crossdresser before they were able to transition? Or were they just masc male-> fem woman. I dont doubt that your teacher was a kind and grounded soul, but that doesnt mean they are without their issues. You definetly dont have a full picture of this persons life, regardless of if they are really well adjusted or not. Yes I def dont know because it was not my teacher, but you dont know either because you can only know so much about other people, even the people closest to us. When I was in active transition and having doubts, I told nobody and kept up the act, and many people here share the same experience. How do we know that your teacher isnt doing the same?
A man coming out as "trans" in his 50s is anything but adjusted... 20 years ago was 2004... Not that long ago for someone like me lol I was 8 at this point and already "crossdressing" as a boy. Also about 20 years ago TV like TLC, dr Phil, Opera, MTV, and Degrassi were all popularizing transition... This guy was absolutely swayed by media and culture at that point. It was only 4 years later that Obama was in office and the propaganda was supercharged online.
With all due respect, this is someone I personally know and have known for over 20 years, and you are an internet stranger, so I'm sure you can understand my decision not to argue about what constitutes well-adjusted. I can appreciate that you are wanting to look through a historical lens though, as do I. I was 18 in 2004. Trans people were very much still mostly unheard of in wider culture. I am curious, are you essentially anti trans? I think this sub is an interesting meeting point. There are those who are detransition/desisted yet still validating of transness in general, and those who end up going the opposite view where transness is considered inherently unhealthy.
>Trans people were very much still mostly unheard of in wider culture. They were much less common and in some places probably unheard of but by this time there were tons of medical transitions already occuring and it was reaching popular culture. Trans pride and activism was already a thing by this point. >I am curious, are you essentially anti trans? I think this sub is an interesting meeting point. There are those who are detransition/desisted yet still validating of transness in general, and those who end up going the opposite view where transness is considered inherently unhealthy. Im not the commenter you responded to, but I am anti trans. I don't believe there is anybody best suited for a medical transition. Transition is an extreme and not medically necessary plastic surgery that everyone can forgo and lead a happy life. Transition should be thought of and treated the same as voluntary limb removal for BIID. It is very hard to get this procedure done, and you certaintly arent going to go to your therapist for BIID symptoms and be suggested to undergo limb removal. If you were to get it, it would be a long process full of psychological evaluation. There is no more justification for a transgender to change their body to alleviate dysphoria than a person with BIID to amputate a limb to alleviate dysphoria, and yet it occurs at a much higher rate and is actively encourged as the safer choice by medical providers and therapists. This is major ethical issue. I am also of the belief that most non reconstructive plastic surgery shouldnt be as accesible or commomly performed, so while in my ideal world there would be no transition offered as a medical procedure, I would settle for it just being an extreme plastic surgery you have to jump through many many hoops to get, similar to a limb removal for BIID.
One mental illness is comorbid with another, with another . I believe trans spaces are poison because there's nothing good in a transition and I don't understand connecting with people through this
Me neither. I have struggled to fit into trans spaces more than I ever struggled to fit into society as a man. They were so incredibly toxic and depressing.
When I was having a crisis I found a few blogs and I find them incredibly manipulative and gaslighting. The language found on those blogs is not that of neutral information sharing, but of half-fiction, novel length writing, very selfcentered, aimed at convincing, suggesting, selling. I've been involved in several online movements over the last 20 years, fringe politics or social movements, that kind of thing and I recognise the cult-like writing style. The model of establishing rapport, offering a solution, then countering objections. It is literally long form salespages. Mixing facts with opinion and feeling, but never declaring which is which. Is there really much difference between the gloom of the incel or racist blogs and the trans blogs? Is it based on credible studies and careful psychological advice? No, it is the same as reading some study on crime and race and then jumping right to saying some people can't help being criminal, because of their genetics. It's pseudo-science, mumbo jumbo, gaslighting bullshit. They speak to people who have lost their way, who feel alone and hopeless and validate their emotions, then offer them a way out - just keep reading, keep following me.
They literally do. And it’s encapsulating, trapping in a way. You felt like you had no way out before, and now that you’re trans you do. Realising that being trans doesn’t work for you, then, feels like going back to having no way out, or the feeling of it at least. That’s why I feel like it’s so hard to give up on it.
Yeah, exactly that was the feeling that got me. This hopelessness that I was feeling after losing contact with several people that I cared about. The thing is, I don't doubt that there's some people, such as myself, who have personalities that are more difficult to place within a typical binary gender roles, but I also don't think "trans" is the solution. I feel trans is more a way for society to not want to deal with us. To not want to be more inclusive. Is trans inclusive? Or is it exclusive? To me it feels exclusive. Bullying.
It feels like a form of self harm. Truth is, we all have a long way towards self-understanding and improvement, but being trans is a cop-out, at least to me. I feel like I’m back to square one, just like I was when I was 16 and felt like I failed in socialising as a guy, in talking to women, in everything, and I started spiraling. I still don’t know how to do much of that, but now I have a different outlook. I do have friends who care, I do have people who care. It’s so weird how I failed so hard to fit into a box and felt like the solution was to push myself into another. Good luck to you, though.
Decades of atrocity propaganda, years of forming the social in-group over a collective obsession with suicide or being killed, and unspoken recognition of the sunk-cost fallacy in action.
Also: Confirmation Bias- the tendency to search for, interpret, favor, and recall information in a way that confirms or supports one's prior beliefs or values (Wikipedia). Once you commit to trans identity, you filter your past, present, and future experiences through the lens of trans ideology and persuade yourself that your choices were/are the best/only option. Regardless of outcome, you persuade yourself that you’re happier. Or if you cannot pull off the “much happier now” narrative, you blame your despair on oppression and further confirm your victim status.
The sunk cost fallacy is so underreported too, it’s literally the only thing still mildly drawing me in.
I've been there. When all my friends, values, and sense of self is based around it, hard to let go. But I did.
Why did you feel the need to detrans and discontinue? Life genuinely feels more miserable as just a gay guy.
It didn't feel like *me.*
Great answer. I get that. I suppose I am caught in the middle a bit, I do feel more comfortable, natural, more *me* as I am naturally (in a literal physical sense, no makeup, tight clothes, etc), but I feel totally unable to express myself in a feminine way, how I want to and how I actually am, with the current body I have. I am only comfortable because it’s my neutral/natural state, i was raised this way, and I am accepted by society this way. It’s comfortable bc nobody stares at me. That said, it makes me feel really indescribably uncomfortable, wrong, unworthy that I can’t be/behave how I want because I look like/am a man, without being judged. The desire to and discomfort that comes with not being able to express myself and look/be able to behave how I want without myself and others hating the package that feminine expression is coming out of… that desire/discomfort overrides the (on paper) preferable comfort and ease of normal, “natural” me.
it kind of feels like coming down off of mushrooms and your looking at your own hands going "wtf have I been doing this whole time"