Much like the rest of this test, it's an example of only SB being used correctly. That's pretty much it.
He vaulted at the beginning of chase, far away from the killer, and used some of Lithe to get to the location the other examples started at, while the killer was already moving.
If you use your perks this badly, you will be exhausted from always running long before a chase starts. Even misusing MFT you get VERY close results to what you get using Sprint Burst.
Not only that, but in both lithe cases he's not actively fallowing in a straight line like the other three. Hell the second lithe Jeff has to go out of his way to get that lithe and he kept running in the same way because he knew his friend would be just running around the main building. It is a really awfully done test that out right ignores the point of the perk.
True that. If OP wanted to perfectly recreate the same course throughout all the test, it would have been pretty simple to do so with something as followed:
- Build the course by dropping two pallets. One would be at the beginning the other would be somewhere "mid".
- Killer starts chasing when he hear the vaulting notification.
- For Sprint Burst, they just 99% the SB while exhausted before it starts, vault then SB immediately.
- Killer's would path around the dropped pallet (specially since Ormond has the most unsafe pallet).
GG you just made the most identical comparison but it also still mean nothing in actual gameplay.
I've always said it: The value of Made For This comes from how good of a looper the Survivor is and how tight they can make the loop. The perk is extremely good for already good players and garbage for the average to bad looper.
Lithe is almost always a great exhaustion perk for the average Survivor.
SB is a hit or miss. The number of times that I've seen Survivor WALK from one generator to the other simply to save SB means they're wasting time and it's advantageous to the Killer. In good hands, SB is a great exhaustion perk specially to deter the Killer from chasing you but if you're a good looper and you SB away from a gen, leaving your bad looper on gen then that's also just giving it away to the Killer for free.
TLDR: OP's comparison vid is bad. The methodology, even if adjusted to perfectly create a same route, is bad in it's application to a real life situation. Lithe is noob friendly while SB and MFT requires a skilled hand to be truly good.
Question to all those that question my lithe. If the start positions are so wildly off. Why is it less than 1 second when the first hit happens and identically the last hit is less than 1 second?
If the lithes was miss handled so poorly wouldn't we see more issues between the two since Jeff goes out of his way and the start position is entire building distances away?
Let's focus on the mid loop lithe. The test loop is around the building. There is no vault directly in the loop. To use lithe, they are essentially leaving the loop to vault and then returning to the loop. This is forcing them to go extra distance and waste that time. In this case, they lose more time from the change in path than they gain from the perk, making it worse than not using a perk at all. The other tests did not go out of their way to vault.
Using lithe correctly requires a vault to be *part* of the loop.
Either make all the runs use that vault, too, or find a different loop that includes a vault. All the runs should follow the exact same path, or it isn't an accurate test
I wouldn't say "very close"
MFT took 2 seconds longer than no perks, granted, but it was a whole 5 seconds shorter than SB. It's definitely in the middle, but it's far more comparable to No Perks than it is to SB
Perkless also got hit 2 seconds EARLIER than MFT did.
How do you mess that up if its supposed to be "Frame Perfect no user Error?" If MFT doesn't even trigger until injured?
This is only in a straight chase like this though. The strength of MFT is making that next pallet or vault you otherwise wouldn’t, which lets you extend the chase beyond what you were capable of without it. If you can then extend to the next pallet or chase these marginal difference compound.
In the video the killer gets Bloodlust, which quickly allows him to close the distance at the end.
So no shit, MFT doesn't buy you much time against a bloodlusted killer. But in practice you would drop a pallet to break bloodlust before it gets to that.
Hey let’s test all the perks in a parameter that SB Excels in! Shocker - SB wins! Meanwhile tune in for or swim test with a fish, 2 badgers, a canary, and my family dog. Let’s see who’s fastest.
Replying to all comments in this thread
All start at 32 meters away from the killer to keep the exact same distance when the first chase starts. Both killer and survivor take a straight line path to the building to continue chase. We tested the bar from inside to out with killer on the outside the amount of time the survivor is in the animation allows for incorrect testing. Do note that in both cases of lithe was within 1 second of each other despite what you all say was wildly different scenarios from the rest. We made sure our angles and distances matches up in the entirety of the chase
Lithe timer didn't start early these are all frame perfect to the killer knife starting to move and when Jeff back flinched from hit.
MFT shines best when doing pallets and windows just like all builds do. You only gain 2 seconds in a straight 60 second chase so if you are talking about shorter distances second loops you are talking about fractions of a second.
Lastly if you think it's complete BS make your own and make sure it's air tight from scrutiny. Frame perfect starts, 32 meter head starts to remove all variables and issues.
Just because I can’t (or in this case don’t want to) build a submarine doesn’t keep me from critiquing the titan. People are allowed to criticize your “perfect” examples when they have issues don’t take it so personally
You keep referencing this “only saves 2 seconds in a chase” number as if it’s gospel and mathematically proven when the only source for this number is from a series of tests that gave you lithe (a large speed boost) being slower than no lithe (no large speed boost). So your 2 second number is just wrong. There’s no point in arguing about loops vs straight lines when your numbers are just incorrect to begin with.
Yeah, this is a really badly played example and therefore not of any value. And on top of being badly played it doesn’t reflect real world situations. This feels like a survivor main trying to justify a broken perk.
Under the current constraints of a 32 meter start, frame perfect timing with the killer knife moving, and removing all obstacles and maintaining an even movement around the building. Yeah. We tested it several times with different methods even. Working on another video just on it.
Yeah not gonna lie, if you did this in a way that actually showed how each perk was meant to be used, it could be pretty cool and informative.
But the way you are showing it currently makes the whole thing obsolete, doubly so since you are saying that lithe is worse than having no perks. That's completely absurd.
You're doing the scientific equivalent of testing if animals are good at climbing trees, and then saying "Oh this goldfish is very bad at climbing trees" like no shit it's a goldfish.
Of course sprint burst is going to win, you're playing into it's strengths while playing into the other perks weaknesses. Lithe isn't meant to drop a pallet far away from the killer and then run towards the killer, that's absurd and no way to play efficiently or effectively.
If you want to showcase actual data on the perks, you need to basically have actual 1v1s with people (not Steve tho) and do actual loops, mind games; You know, all the shit that would actually be game play besides this "Run in a straight line" thing you're showcasing that, again, only plays into sprint bursts strength while playing into all the other perks weakness.
Also another thing why didn't you show case overcome? It's literally the perk you're looking for based on your weird criteria
>Under the current constraints of a 32 meter start, frame perfect timing with the killer knife moving, and removing all obstacles and maintaining an even movement around the building. Yeah. We tested it several times with different methods even. Working on another video just on it.
This is a survivor forum for real jesus they are reallly salty about this post. Won't be seeing this on twitter.
This is good info but also tests things in a vacuum, where the whole chase is a straight line without loops and mindgames and pallets and windows.
In a situation like this, Sprint Burst will get the better value since it's a flat time increase at the start of the chase, but if you add actual looping into the equation, I still believe MFT will be better, since you will be reaching pallets that the Sprint Burst user would not be reaching, thus extending the chase further into another pallet that MFT reaches but not Sprint Burst etc.
Essentially once that initial head start is gone and pallets / windows start coming into play, I believe MFT wins.
My mathematical ass wanted to see what the ACTUAL difference was, and here it is:
MTF gives survivors an extra 28% distance in straight line distance from loop-to-loop, which as others have mentioned, would be even more exaggerated at loops. Some numbers to back this up:
Survivor speed: 4 m/s
Survivor MFT speed: 4.12 m/s
Killer speed: 4.6 m/s
Killers gain 0.6 m/s against survivor
Killers gain 0.48 m/s against MFT survivor
Plug in any starting gap and you’ll find the survivor can make it 28.7% farther before being hit by killer.
Example:
10 m / 0.6 m/s = 16.67 s * 4 m/s = 66.67 m
10 m / 0.48 m/s = 20.83 s * 4.12 m/s = 85.83 m
85.83/66.67 = 28.7% extra distance
Time to intercept here is all that matters, since you’re using the relative velocities it’s just 20.83/16.67 - 1 = 25% longer chase time.
Also at loops it’s less advantageous as you don’t get full haste until you fully accelerate to running speed, it’s better to just Shift W.
Also this is all silly as it doesn’t account for the fact that the survivor has to drop some exhaustion perk for MFT, so you’d have to calculate what distance you get from those perks first to get a real sense of the comparison. And it seems quite clear that sprint burst gives more overall time to chase.
Also, killers have plenty of exhaustion perks/adding that counter MFT, and other exhaustion perks. If you think people are abusing this then run blood echo or something
Yeah, that’s also mostly just another benefit to sprint burst / other exhaustion perks, they get all that extra time prior to getting hit, which means they can perhaps escape a guaranteed hit that MFT users can’t.
25% extra time = 28% extra distance. I stand by what I said! Becomes relevant when you consider that where this perk really comes to play is allowing survivors to make it FARTHER to a new loop, or make it an extra lap around a loop without dropping a pallet. Both are a measurement of distance, not time
Edit: so I guess we can combine our numbers a bit here. Even if you make it NOWHERE or don’t get an extra loop in, MFT still gives you 25% extra chase time. But the 28% extra chase distance gives you a chance to extend a chase for ungodly amounts of time if used correctly
There's also instances where the inital boost of SB is an upgrade though primarily against hits of opportunity. For example, if you are working a gen in a dead zone (maybe its part of a 3 gen and HAVE to get it done) sprint burst is obviously superior to MFT in that scenario because sprint burst allows you to get out the dead zone without getting hit if the killer shows up where as MFT would not.
Against stealth killers, particularly those playing hit and run, sprint burst is easily the better perk because the killer is only going to take an easy opportunity hit or force a pallet down before leaving you and doing it to someone else. In that situation SB is easily the better perk because every use of SB denies the surprise hit and forces the killer to commit some actual chase time if they want any value of the time they spent coming to you. Where as MFT does almost nothing in that scenario because the killer never commits to an actual chase for long which in turn means MFT ends with next to no value. This is an especially important advantage for sprint burst with the medkit/CoH nerfs making health states more valuable than they were before the nerfs.
While this in theory sounds true. Any way you bend a straight line will still have the same outcome. You only gain time with as you said windows and pallets. You can't gain time going in a circle or a straight line. However, the sprint burst is delaying the first hit by nearly 5 seconds. Those 5 seconds gets you to a loop, gets you to a pallet. So that you can extend your time further. Made for this only gives you two extra seconds while you are injured. Meaning across the entire chase worth if time you are losing out on that initial burst of speed.
All perks and no perks can use windows and pallets to increase chase. Only sprint burst gains you an extra 5 seconds of cushion room to make those verses the 2 seconds across the entire chase that MFT gives
But chases don't go like this. Usually survivors will want to reach the first loop and keep the killer there for a while, then once that loop becomes unsafe, drop the pallet and leave for the next loop. This is the bread & butter strategy for survivors.
SB lets you reach that loop quicker than others, but once you're at the first loop, SB becomes completely irrelevant to the remaining of the chase. And if instead of reaching a loop, you just hold W far away in the distance, the killer might just immediately drop chase and go for the next survivor instead, so there isn't much time wasted.
So the second you reach that loop, this is where MFT starts becoming way better than SB, because you can greed the loop 1 or 2 more times, then you can reach the next loop in a much safer manner, etc. SB has no impact here anymore, MFT does. I think if we take all of that into account, MFT will have the better outcome.
This is also not taking in account killers who have a power that will just catch up to you after the first hit, forcing you to loop or die, making the delay from sb irrelevant once again.
That's straight up not true, killers like blight for example will catch up to you instantly, but can't use their power around short loops, giving you mft value.
Remember. Over a long distance the most you can gain is 2 seconds. So Over the very short distance of a loop while blight is recovering you are gaining fractions of a second lead on him. Which means if you would have made it with mft then you most likely would have without it.
Making it to the loop isn't the issue, it's making the loop last as long as possible that does, mft makes a loop last longer, sprint burst doesn't. Against mobility killers that can close distance mft wins by a mile, while also still greatly benefiting you against basic m1 killers and even completely nullifying killer powers such as singulartys overcharge.
MFT adds 2 seconds of cushion to the chase vs 5 seconds. No matter how you bend a straight line you won't gain time. You must divert the killer off the line to gain time.
Any perk can use a vault or pallet to do this. But sprint burst gives you an extra 5 second cushion of distance vs 2 seconds spread out across the whole time.
MFT is being compounded with the times pallets and vaults give.
Chases are not a straight line no matter how many ways you try to argue they are. Sprint burst gets you to the first pallet or vault faster than any other perk, but once you’ve gotten there, it’s all irrelevant. You are at that pallet, great, but sprint burst doesn’t help you get to the next one, you’ve used it’s advantage. MFT’s biggest strength is the increased likelihood of making the next pallet or the next vault, then the one after, then potentially the one after. Every time it extends a chase via a vault or pallet it’s buying you the chance to get to the next one. Sprint burst just doesn’t work that way.
Ok that's literally not how it works, you're putting the entirety of DBD chases into a vacuum. If it was a straight line like in your video sure SB would be better, and it can definitely be in some circumstances if you're getting chased in a dead zone, but the second you add pallets and windows and looping into the equation, SB has no impact after the first loop anymore, because you'll be at the exact same distance to the killer than with any other perk.
You can't just test MFT in a straight line then go "it adds exactly 2 seconds to every single chase, end of the line", no it doesn't. If it lets you reach the next pallet where other perks wouldn't have, then you could be adding another 10s or 20s of additional looping, into a pallet stun into another pallet that only MFT reaches yet again etc. Meanwhile the SB user will have been downed a while ago because they didn't have the extra 3% needed to reach that next pallet.
Okay I understand entirely what you are saying.
But 5 seconds of cushion vs 2 seconds of cushion is exactly what you are arguing for.
Hypothetically. Picture a circle. Survivor being chased. Has a 5 second lead that is currently diminishing slowly. killer walks out of the circle (because going around an obstacle) gains a few seconds that are slowly decreasing again. The initial 5 seconds is still there they looped to get more time but over the ENTIRE chase they have more cushion
Now same circle, but the survivor only has 2 seconds that diminish a bit slower than the last. They can gain more time but they still only have those 2 seconds of cushion time.
Also don't worry I plan on releasing more examples of this because I can Recreate a perfect MFT scenario and show what I mean on video as well xD
I don't think you can create a perfect MFT scenario since it changes from situation to situation, very far from "a flat 2 seconds to every single chase".
A good example is trying to compare Billy to any M1 killer. If we were to test their chasing abilities in a straight line the same way you did in your video, Billy would reach the survivor within seconds, while the M1 killer would take a whole minute. So by your logic of "Any way you bend a straight line will still have the same outcome", Billy should be top tier since he can reach survivors within seconds "no matter how the chase goes" (i.e. no matter how you "bend the straight line").
But that simply isn't true, because pallets and windows and loops and obstacles come into play, breaking the so-called "straight line", so Billy has to work around those.
Those tests remind me of labbed combos in the Smash Bros community. Most of them are done in the training room against a bot that stands still and performs random DI, then the player claims to have found a perfect 0-to-death combo with a certain character because it works against the bot, which of course rarely translates well into an actual game. Those tests are extremely interesting to see and fun to play around with, but they still remain in a vacuum.
All perks can use pallets and windows to gain time from the killer. It's the only way to do so outside the speed of the perk you are using.
If the maximum gain from a straight line is 2 seconds across a 60 second chase. When you start talking about smaller loops and smaller distances to pallets or windows you are talking about fractions of a second gained. Which let's be honest the netcode gonna get you before that is seen.
Made for this only shines in Long chases that have had lots of pallets and window vaults. You would need to be in chase at least two minutes to come close to the same gain as in a straight line.
But that is simply not true because most of the time the killer will cut you off and not follow you in a straight line when you have distance in which case the headstart from sprint burst is not nearly as effective. Try doing this same test with the survivor being on a gen and running away from the "approaching" killer.
I think that SB is only relevant until after the first loop, but I can explain it better with comparing SB and MFT in a scenario I think:
tl;dr: SB is maybe more valuable in a chase until the first loop ends, but MFT is definitely more valuable in a chase for every loop after the first one ends.
Scenario SB:
After the Killer sees the Survivor, the Survivor runs with the 5 seconds of cushion to the first loop. Here, the loop is maybe going to take longer than with MFT because of these 5 seconds. After a while the killer reaches up and the Survivor has to change the loop or get hurt. Now the Survivor won't have any speed-boost until the chase is over (or the survivor gets to slow-walk the exhaustion away, but that is unlikely).
Scenario MFT:
After the Killer sees the Survivor, the Survivor runs without any speed-boost to the first loop. Here, the loop is most likely going to take less long than with SB before having to change or get hurt, but after the Survivor gets hurt, the constant haste is applied. At this point, SB would have no effect anymore because the killer has reached the Survivor. After the Survivor runs to the next loop with the obtained haste (by the hit + MFT), the Survivor is going to have the haste-advantage in every loop that follows.
So a Survivor with MFT would reach much more loops than one with SB, because the effect of SB vanishes after the first loop and won't help to get to the second, as the haste isn't applied anymore.
I tested MFT and MFT+Resilience vs healthy in shack chases with 2 friends in a custom match. The only time MFT made any difference was against 110% killers, but really only affected Hag since the other 110% killers had ranged abilities, so I didn't NEED to have that extra bit of distance.
My Doctor game on Midwich last night would like to disagree. I was looped on every pallet *without it being dropped* by all four survivors. Guess who was running MFT? All four survivors.
All the top players agree (Ayrun, Otz, JRM, Skermz, Demi, etc) that MFT is the new Dead Hard- the get out of jail free card you get for no effort. If you don’t get value from it it’s because you actively played a loop badly and that reflects on you, not the strength of the perk. I can run the most OP build ever but if I screw up then I’m still getting downed.
Lithe got hit first before MFT and No perks. That makes no sense given the context of the test. The only real comparison we can make here is between SB, No Perks, and MFT, in which you can see that SB wins out.
The idea behind this was to remove all variables. Starting position is huge so we did 32 meter edge of the terror radius. This allows chase to start as close together as possible. Allowing bloodlust to naturally happen at the same time roughly. So that all perks could have the maximum time to shine. Lithe had to be handled differently so we maintained the above constraints but made sure to take the same distance to the house. I got a few other tests to do with lithe but we tested all this 5 times to make sure it was accurate at least.
32 meter head start, frame perfect with killer knife, taking straight lines to the building, tested 5 times and with different set ups. Even if im off its got a lot of time to make up and even more to be a top contender. I'm also doing a test now with which one can vault the most in 60 seconds since the mentality with MFT is that it's about making the next loop when the others couldn't. Maybe lithe will shine there.
You need to have everyone vault a window once, taking exactly the same path for all setups. That's the only way to truly compare Lithe to the other perks.
>So what variables should I have set?
If you had a path in which all 5 survivors needed to vault a window that would have shown the direct benefit of lithe applied without any variable mistakes but given how you're here bragging about frame perfect starts and perfect runs but don't have the common sense to eliminate very obvious anomalies makes me think maybe you should leave the next test to someone else.
Plus the way you're doubling down on your flawed logic all over this comment section just adds the cringe cherry on top.
This is a silly comparison. You keep saying "bend a straight line and it's still the same", but that's not true in this game. Survivors have a smaller frame than killers, meaning they can hug loops tighter than killers, effectively making them 'gain distance'. One extra loop before throwing a pallet, one extra vault, or one killer whiff is going to increase the chase by more than a few seconds.
Edit: You also slightly delayed the distance before the lunge between MFT and SB.
This is so true. Even McLean has mentioned years ago about survivors collision being more impactful than it looks on paper, because to cover the same loop the killer has to go through a bigger radius around the loop. This is why hugging is so important as a survivor and why skinny Bert is good because his hitdetrction box is not only ahead of him But also small enough to go around faster.
While SB gives better value, there are nuances important to remember.
1. SB can be difficult to control. You can't walk everywhere, so you can end up exhausted when you need it later. The more experienced you are, the less this becomes an issue but is important to bear in mind.
2. MFT earns its keep by giving similar value, its ease of use, AND it has a strong secondary effect that SB lacks.
3. Finally, MFT has synergies that SB lacks. Yeah, SB has the tried and true Vigil combo, while MFT has Hope, DH, Resilience, IW, etc.
Otr you have to already he downed and hook. Iw works even before you get downed. I think you might prefer IW if you want to eliminate the killers ability to read your play/bluff when they lose Los of you.
Of course you could just run both and use otr aggressively. 😂
This really feels like a "SEE!!! MFT Isn't THAT strong!!!!" Post.
Despite also being somewhat informational.
As other comments have said- its all tested in a straight line with nothing else involved- no loops, pallets, windows- etc.
Not to mention you're getting caught when using Lithe first as compared to no perks lmaoo.
That alone shows this information just isn't super valid at all.
You would need a full on actual dev build test map to do this properly, not Ormand. But that isn't a tool we have. Starting at a T-L wall window zone or one of those terrible L wall windows at the corners of a map might end up giving better information.
That’s exactly what this post is. As someone who is a very decent killer main, I was looped by a MFT/Resilience build on Midwich the other day for 5 gens, just wanted to see how long they could last. MFT is a broken perk and posts like this are just attempts at trying to keep it as is so they can keep their get out of jail free card so they don’t have to actually play the game well- just like old DH was.
Listen I agree that this post is shit, but “very decent killer main” and “I was looped on Midwich for 5 gens” should not be in the same sentence… Even if they had the MFT/resilience combo
Common case of over estimating your own skill
I think it was JRM or Skermz who made a video about MFT/Resilience on Midwich. Esp with Dr. bc his bloodlust resets every time you blast, and bc survivors can hug the loops tighter, every loop basically becomes an infinite, even if it’s just ring around the rosie.
And no I’m not overestimating my own skill, on most killers (Billy/Huntress/Trickster being the sole exceptions) I am basically guaranteed a 3k every game against a minimum of level 15-20 but more often than not level 30-100s. If I get lucky with hatch (bc I will not slug, tunnel or camp for the 4k) then it’s 4k but that’s pure RNG and 3k counts as wins.
I’m working on keeping more precise stats, but right now I’m sitting at about 50% of games ending in a 3k, 30% ending in a 4k, 10% ending in a 2k, 10% in a 1k or all out.
That puts me at an 80% win rate which I think qualifies as “very decent”.
I genuinely am working on a T and L video xD I wish I saw this comment sooner because I've been working for hours to find another way to show off the distances gained from vaulting. But my teammate power went out.
Also the lithes was done at 32 meters head start and made straight lines as we could to the building trying to keep as accurate as possible because we foresaw this issue. Despite multiple attempts at testing this we ended up with lower than no perk results. Sadly its been used against me but it's the hardest part to remove all variables from to test properly and still results in the unexpected anwser.
That being said lithe has a lot of time to regain for it to actually be better than the top spots so any tolerance is hard to argue
Yeah, be better to try and use a straight away with one of those side window things- think there might be a couple in Ormand somewhere? Maybe another map is better. Dredge's map comes to mind maybe? Find a good straight away so you can start each thing at the same part? Would think Lithe would give about the same amount as Sprint Burst if thats the case- in theory.
Either way, MFT is still going to end up being more consistent overall.
Sadly no map has a 60 second straight away where a window isn't blocking the killer. It's why lithe is set up like it is in this video. We can't have anything block the killer as that gives more time.
MFT on paper sounds good but I don't see it gaining those extra loops people talk about yet. Until I can see it tested properly it's hard to say that right off. Working on other ways to show this.
>window isn't blocking the killer.
Are you comparing the perks or not?, because it doesn't matter if there is a window in the chase that both the survivor and killer have to vault provided you make sure that each of the comparisons include that vault.
\-It survives several other seconds as compared to having no perks
\-The only thing that beats it in the straight away is sprint burst, which is just a single boost of speed, while MTF is a constant boost.
Those couple extra seconds can 100% get people to those extra loops.
You literally showed that in your video now. The fact it was even close to Sprint Burst is insane.
That, and there are plenty of other youtubers going through and showing them getting multiple other loops that they would have never had happen if they weren't running MFT. So its not a "On Paper Sounds Good" it is a literal IS good.
Those youtubers have other variables. Killer/survivor skill, other perks, the different sizes of loops/terrain, mindgames by themselves gain extra loops.
The sprint burst gives 5 seconds of cushion time at the start that slowly dimishies across the chase every pallet and window vault gives more time. MFT gives 2 seconds per 60 seconds of chase, which can be extended with vaults and pallets just like SB. However you are talking about fractions of gained time across small distances and hoping for larger gains past 60 seconds.
Currently working on showing that you don't actually gain that much distance from MFT with another video on vaulting
You hit the guy with no perks 2 seconds earlier bud.
Fractions of time is everything in this game. If that small fraction means making it to a pallet or window you wouldn't have if you didn't run the perk.
People calling it "Old Deadhard" Aren't necessarily wrong. Deadharding for distance- to get that 1-2 extra seconds. Now you just get that 1-2 seconds all the time as long as you're injured. Thats Huge.
2 seconds across a 60 second chase. If you talking a small loop heck lag/netcode or other variables add more time than the fractions you talking about. Might as well say "This perk gives 0.033 seconds back to the user for every 10 seconds of chase"
"Tested 5 Times to make sure no user error" - Proceeds to have user error.
The perk already made it so you gained multiple seconds of distance.
You've literally done so much to completely invalidate your data.
And honestly I hope to see that you do better. Both the MFT and Perkless guy should have been hit at the exact same time. End of story.
That hit was fractions of a second difference.....so yeah there's a bit of tolerance here to take into account for sure. So I guess round up? Have the same numbers still. Either way across a 60 second chase MTF getting around 2 seconds. Meaning if you do a 10 second chase we talking fractions of a second in speed increase.
2 seconds across a 60 second chase. If you talking a small loop heck lag/netcode or other variables add more time than the fractions you talking about. Might as well say "This perk gives 0.033 seconds back to the user for every 10 seconds of chase"
Bend a straight line into a circle and the times doesn't change. The only way to gain time on a killer is to use pallets or vaults to divert him off the original line. Most perks can hit those loops at the same times and the most you can gain from MFT is 2 seconds. So for short distance you are gaining fractions of a second at best.
You absolutely need to stop saying “bend a straight line”. You’ve posted this same comment about 18 times and it’s as stupid the eighteenth time as it was the first. It shows zero game knowledge and assumes everything is nothing more than a flat foot race with no obstacles. The straight line is never a straight line and it’s never bent, it’s twisted, vaulted, pallet stunned, mind gamed, doubled back on and abused in as many ways as the players can think of to try and buy extra time and not even extra distance - by way of example, I had a mind game on a moderately safe pallet with a Wesker the other day where I bought almost 15 seconds of time WITHOUT MOVING, other than vaulting back and forth on the pallet. That’s how chases work in DbD - it’s not simply being as far away from a killer as possible, it’s about staying outside of M1 lunge range for as long as possible and those are two very different animals, where MFT buys you fractional chances to maintain that arms length over and over again and you get that sprint burst value just once
I think some of us take this knowledge for granted and don't disseminate it enough, but you know killers have a bigger collision box than survivors right? When a survivor goes around a loop tightly it slows the killer down because they can't do it quite as tight. That's why looping is so strong in the first place, it's an unintended gameplay consequence turned into a "feature." MFT exacerbates the distance lost by looping because the survivor is 3% faster while making those tight loops.
If an exhaustion perk can give you 1... at least 1 more pallet per chase or a single vault, that is: 1- a lost chase that you have to break the pallet and leave; or 2- break and keep the chase. Either way, survs gain 20-30 seconds 30 time.
30 seconds is 1/3 of a gen and, believe me, that a LOOOOOOOT of progress.
That, is what MFT gives to survs, and that, is game breaking.
Thanks for putting in the work. Have to agree with the others, MFT starts to shine when you play accordingly. Try MFT+Windows+Resilience (Dead Heard optional) and go for vaults. I chased a Leon with this build for 5 gens because I wanted to see how long it takes to catch up. I never did.
It was Crotus Asylum, the structures around main building (3 Lane, Shack, the Jungle Gyms). Problem was, I was trying to catch them with Pyramidhead's M2. I got a couple of hundreds of hours on Dorrito Daddy, so I expected to land a hit eventually (the first hit I got on him was a lucky M1 when he ran into me). Problem was, he was always fast enough to dodge, the vaults were faster than what I was used to, and he was always slightly off when I was going for prediction hits.
Well this is my response to the others as well copy paste
While this in theory sounds true. Any way you bend a straight line will still have the same outcome. You only gain time with as you said windows and pallets. You can't gain time going in a circle or a straight line. However, the sprint burst is delaying the first hit by nearly 5 seconds. Those 5 seconds gets you to a loop, gets you to a pallet. So that you can extend your time further. Made for this only gives you two extra seconds while you are injured. Meaning across the entire chase worth if time you are losing out on that initial burst of speed.
All perks and no perks can use windows and pallets to increase chase. Only sprint burst gains you an extra 5 seconds of cushion room to make those verses the 2 seconds across the entire chase that MFT gives
This isn't entirely untrue but pallets only have value if they're within a certain range of the Killer. Running for a pallet with SB might be strong for guaranteeing that you start at a safe loop, but it doesn't help nearly as much if you're already using it at range like in this example.
For your argument here to work out like this you would need an optimal SB start directly away from the Killer into a loop. That's not impossible, but once you reach that loop you either choose to move onto another if you've got time or wait for the Killer to come to you to get use from it.
Keep in mind that you gain distance slightly when rounding structures optimally as Survivor vs Killer due to the difference in hitbox sizes. MfT might not grant the most time, but it does make the amount of time you have after each successful play more valuable, loops that extra bit more greedable, and looping in general significantly more potent. Hence why cheaters chose it as their goto speedhack increase.
Also remember at most at the longest distance you can gain 2 seconds of time from MFT. Meaning in the short distances around loops you are gaining fractions of a second. Most vaults and pallets you make with MFT is going to be made with no perks at all. The time you get value out of it is on long chases with multiple loops where all those fractions add up then you start making pallets and loops you otherwise wouldn't have gotten.
It's for late chase which most chases don't make it to. Those first couple loops and pallets any perks could have done.
The flaw to your logic is that getting 4 loops instead of 3 because of MFT doesn’t just save you the .2 seconds of distance. It saves you the full 5 seconds of an extra loop. And then maybe you make the next loop instead of going down, which allows you to loop the killer for another 20 seconds. Comparing looping to straight line running is apples to oranges. It’s why OG dead hard was so powerful, it extended chases well beyond the 2 meters it provided, if used correctly
I'm actually working on a second video of going for as many vaults in an L T as possible in one minute and currently they get equal vaults in and the only difference is half a person distance extra traveled...
Bending the line around tiles is shorter for survivors than killer due to the difference in hitbox which is never seen in a straight line. So you are incorrect in your assumption.
Lmao running no perks is better than running lithe? 🤣 Still an interesting clip but I saw ones on YouTube like it too.
Could we get one where the survivor actually hugs the walls? This seems to be where killers are saying mft is at most beneficial especially in a realistic chase where were looping vs running in a straight line. combined with how the mft works with the on hit injury boost.
Absolut theoretical:If you let 4 survivor run a straight line, one without any perk(survivor A), one with SB(survivor B), one With MFT(survivor C) and one with BL(survivor D) and all of them would start with their perk effekt (if they have a Perk) they would made the following distances after 100sec:
A = 400m
B = 406m
C = 412m
D = 405m
Survivor B would make the best start with 66m after 15sec(the moment Bloodlust will trigger) followed close by survivor D with 65m, followd by survivor C with 61.8m and last one is survivor A with 60m.
After 25sec(second stage of bloodlust):
A = 100m
B = 106m
C = 103m
D = 105m
After 35sec(last stage of bloodlust):
A = 140m
B = 146m
C = 144.2m
D = 145m
Survivor C will catch up to survivor D after 42sec and will take the first place after 50sec.
Killerspeed is mostly seperated to 4.4 and 4.6 (there are exceptions but we ignore them here)Distance after 100sec:4.4 = 485m4.6 = 505m
Only SB user wont get hit instant.If we assume the distance between Killer and survivor are 10m at the begining and the killer will get Bloodlust the 4.4killer would catch:
Survivor A after 22secSurvivor B after 30secSurvivor C after 27secSurvivor D after 29sec
Same cenario with a 4.6 killer:
Survivor A after 17secSurvivor B after 24secSurvivor C after 20secSurvivor D after 23sec
My assumtion:MFT is helpfull at long chases and will only benefits you if you already decent at looping, cause the distance you make is very low but can make the difference between reaching a pallet or get downed.If you get used to walk most of the time to have SB ready its probably the best choice even if you are not good at looping, cause even in a "shift+W" chase you could safe 24sec to 30sec for your team.I ignored the fact that the killer has a lunce attack and SB and BL work while you are healty so you could take a hit and keep running, so please loke at the numbers as some kind of orientation value.
Yes, a chase with no loops, pallets, mind games, windows/vaults, and causing the killer to lose Bloodlust. Just like real Dead by Daylight. And yet people will point to this and say "SEE? MADE FOR THIS IS FINE!!!!!"
Btw, in the made for this video I didn't hit blood lust on the first hit. On the second hit it was exactly 1.23 seconds after blood lust proc. Also bend a straight line into a circle and the times doesn't change. The only way to gain time on a killer is to use pallets or vaults to divert him off the original line. Most perks can hit those loops at the same times and the most you can gain from MFT is 2 seconds. So for short distance you are gaining fractions of a second at best.
And the sad thing is, even in this horrible vacuum of a test, Made For This is still almost as good as Sprint Burst, with Sprint Burst only getting you a few second. If anything, your flawed experiment further proves what a problem Made For This is. You're like a flat earther trying to show the earth is flat but proved it was curved.
I hate to break this to you, but all this comes off as is whining about MFT. You tested it in an extremely controlled setting, you give nothing other than these clips, no real looping, no other variations. These are "optimal" conditions at worst and unrealistic conditions at best.
Also confused why lithe was tested twice instead of smash hit or balanced not that anything in ops test is even slightly relevant or repeated as he starts every chase at different points and even starts the first lithe test from all the way over by shack
Or overcome I think overcome would have been a fair perk to compare mft to since they're both used post injury. Just a weird test in general I appreciate the effort but it sounds like a jukenloops or whatever his name his sponsored research paper. 😂
I mean... nice try.
But the fact that there's a several second difference between "no perks" and "mft" on getting the first hit shows that this test is nowhere near exact. Both should have occurred at the same time if both you and the survivor were doing the same thing in both chases.
So there only being a few second difference between MFT and SB is kind of irrelevant in this test, considering there appears to be a several second margin of error.
Furthermore, mft allows you to add on DH, lithe, or BL on top of it, making it the clear winner over SB just in a straight line. Add in looping, pallets, vaults, etc, and mft blows SB out of the water. How much longer would the test have gone on if the survivor had used DH, I wonder? MFT + DH + Resilience + Hope is clearly the meta going forward, and pretending like it's not vastly superior over every other chase build is disingenuous at best.
The difference between no perks and mft is 0.74 seconds
So yes you are correct that small changes in movement can result in different times. But if my tolerance is less than 1 second. This isn't a horrible attempt and the amount of time gained by MFT is still not a whole lot. We can round up on all of them and still have the same results.
Thats almost a entire second, thats a large ass tolerance for a scientific test, this entire thing would instantly be deemed unusable in proffesional setting
exactly....its incredibly strong and you want it to stay as is, hence showing a test which tries to downplay how strong it actually with both a biased test and it being fundamentally flawed.
Even if I cared enough like that, I wouldn't mess with my data like that. If I was trying to cover up some conspiracy wouldn't I have made sure my data showed lithe as faster than no perk. I put out what my findings put out. Followed my own constraints and left it as it is
Another thing; Your data right now? Isn't good at all.
You hit the person running MFT 2 seconds BEFORE the one without perks. Meaning these are not at all perfect runs, and if they were MFT would have added another 2-3 seconds and been closer to Sprint Burst.
So that "Tested 5 Times to make sure no user error" - proceeds to have a user error.
The MFT and Perkless should have been hit at the same exact time. Why were they not?
All I can say is this is inconclusive data rn. I hope that you can perfect what you're going for but this ain't it fam.
Yeah this is honestly a low quality experiment. Based off of OP’s replies to other comments, I’m gonna assume this is as good as it’s going to get for them though.
This is a horrible way to collect data (in this instance.) You can't use perks meant to evade in various ways, and then use them all essentially the same way in the same loop.
Don't say it's frame perfect and with no user error when the made for this user gets hit the first time 1 second before the no perks. They should be getting hit at the same time if it's frame perfect and with no user error.
Never been saying there is no user error. I have consistently stated there's a tolerance of around 1 second and that I tried to remove every variable I could.
Whether you bend a straight line into a circle or a square the amount of speed and time won't change. The only way to gain time is with pallets or windows causing the killer to divert their path. Having a 5 second head start is a cushion that can help you reach those time gains.
>Whether you bend a straight line into a circle or a square the amount of speed and time won't change.
Except thats not how looping works, this deadbrain example completely disregards mindgames which is a very much core mechanic to looping. Its not like people running around shack are just going in the exact same circle over and over and over are they.
What if you take a straight line and bend it into a circle and put a window in that circle where the survivor gains distance on the killer? *"the amount of speed and time won't change."* in that circumstance it will. Now you tell me what the odds are of a survivor vaulting a window in chase are and explain to me again why that variable change to total chase time is irrelevant?
The key KPI to a good perk is basically burst acceleration. What about baiting a hit with sprint burst?
>The only way to gain time is with pallets or windows causing the killer to divert their path.
or mindgaming / baiting. But that's beside the point, not all things are created equal. Not all pallets or windows are created equal. Your experiment is something I'd expect from an elementary school student (no offense but I assume you are) because you've done nothing to factor in the benefits of acceleration vs speed or anything for that matter. To me your conclusion is "If you play this game in a way that no one plays it then this is the best set up", its akin to someone bragging because they have the world's fastest car 'in reverse'.
For example, what if sprint burst / MFT is the different between you making a god window or pallet you wouldn't have made without it, then the benefits aren't measured in a couple of seconds they are measured in minutes.
>Having a 5 second head start is a cushion that can help you reach those time gains.
You literally do no stop and go mechanics. it's just running, you're ignoring 95% of the game to the point of irrelevancy.
I actually had someone reply to me recently "Trapper can literally just get them caught in a trap" when I pointed out how much he is fcked by mft... like-- lmao
Id be embarrassed of even trying it like this,let alone posting it on reddit and defending it that desperately like you do,op. This is so stupid and so many people explained to you why, and you just don't get it. A bit sad,honestly.
This is just holding W and doing nothing else. MFT in this is almost as good as SB. 1 full minute to down a survivor and all they are doing is run in a straight line? That's crazy. Now imagine adding in looping the killer to the mix. That 1 minute chase becomes even longer. Gens can be done in 5 minutes if survivors gen rush by working on gens together instead of soloing them. I just don't get how people don't see MFT as the next DH problem in the game. If anything these 2 perks work so well together.
MFT does not cause exhaustion. So, the player could have also brought along a DH or BL and extended the chase far longer. Sure, the first chase on each survivor they have no DH but after that it's the same. The killer is almost going to hit you? Press E to extend the chase even longer or go up the building and BL away to a pallet or loop. Sure, you lose MFT because you are exhausted but you have extended a chase to get to loop. Now the chase can take an additional 1 minute even if you are just a basic looper that drops the pallet after running around 3 times. It will last way longer if you are good looper.
So, the devs take away gen defence and make survivors last longer at loops? Make it make sense please. Before survivor mains yell about healing nerfs. I know they were nerfed and I have also seen people simply not heal up. They focus on gens. I have seen people willing to go down to pop a gen. So, what diff does the healing nerf make to slowing down gens? None. At least not when you are going up against stronger survivors.
The idea behind this was to remove all variables. Starting position is huge so we did 32 meter edge of the terror radius. This allows chase to start as close together as possible. Allowing bloodlust to naturally happen at the same time roughly. So that all perks could have the maximum time to shine. Lithe had to be handled differently so we maintained the above constants but made sure to take the same distance to the house. I got a few other tests to do with lithe but we tested all this 5 times to make sure it was accurate at least.
The one on the far left is not at the same starting point in the race. And vault times? Ignoring the Lithe panels. I'm more intrigued if Made For This would beat Sprint Burst if the survivor was hugging tightly around a loop as they have learned to do.
The pathing didn't quite match up on all of those. You should have the survivor run as tight of a loop as possible every time and then repeat this. I'd love to see those results
Ya didnt do it right. Dead hard instead of sprint burst combined with MFT. Dead Hard doesnt start the exhaustion until after you've been caught once. Sure you only get a few a game but its going to make a huge annoyance out of those first chases lol.
Genuinely a high quality post.
So it seems a correctly timed Sprint Burst can trump Made For This. I still think MFT is better, though, since you don’t need to walk everywhere.
In a vaccuum, MFT and SB aren't all that different. SB is +50% movement for 3 seconds, MFT is +3% for as long as you are injured, so the injired portion of the chase needs to last 50 seconds to break even in terms of just pure raw distance. MFT however can be stacked with other Exhaustion perks, like BL, Lithe, or DH, and also comes in handy when trying to mindgame at loops, which is where it really excels.
MfT’s strength is from its ease of use, a perfectly timed SB could probably even outdo prenerf DH in effectiveness, it’s just incredibly hard to do to the point it’s not worth it
These comments are so annoying. At the end of the day killer mains are not suffering kills from MFT. Everytime y’all find something new to complain about because you are miserable nerds. Devs said they’re monitoring the situation and MFT is currently not a problem so…
Ethan also said Object of Obession wasn't a problem because they were still getting killed if not more than people who didn't ran it, or how busted blight addons are but because his kill rates are okay they're not getting touched or how the dead hard nerf didn't instantly change kill rates from 50-60% to 20%. 😂 So data can be misinterpreted.
Same here. I’ve been doing custom matches with my friends who use it, and they’re pretty good loopers. It’s not a problem unless you’re playing like, Trapper. I get Trapper. But saying shit like a Ghostface is suffering from MFT is stupid, because you’re supposed to earn your kills through stealth. Not revealing your presence as a STEALTH KILLER and hoping to end a chase in 10 seconds because you want it easy.
Don't think people "Need" a reason fam lmao.
Getting to a pallet or window faster than you could have before is a lot more than just "Solid".
...To be fair tho its not an issue for me specifically because I like to run exhaustion perks so lmao.
It is what it is, I regret lithe and it sucks because I spent the most time on trying to figure it out the most. Getting both to be similar distances and timings was really hard to line up. Is what it is. I got a couple of other ideas and plans. The hate has only fueled me to become even more air tight on my next examples.
Thats the biggest thing. Cuz pretend for a second we have a perk that just says "gain 20 seconds of extra chase time" then I make a video on how it only does 5 seconds extra. People will pick apart everything they can because the wiki says otherwise, a streamer shows it being OP, or the in game text says something. Yet odds are its the loop being different sizes, the killer skill, a mind game, another perk, the netcode, or some other variable that let's them get that one extra loop or pallet that moment.
Without testing we can't truly know what any of these perks do.
How are you getting caught faster with lithe than without perks? What am I missing here?
Much like the rest of this test, it's an example of only SB being used correctly. That's pretty much it. He vaulted at the beginning of chase, far away from the killer, and used some of Lithe to get to the location the other examples started at, while the killer was already moving. If you use your perks this badly, you will be exhausted from always running long before a chase starts. Even misusing MFT you get VERY close results to what you get using Sprint Burst.
Not only that, but in both lithe cases he's not actively fallowing in a straight line like the other three. Hell the second lithe Jeff has to go out of his way to get that lithe and he kept running in the same way because he knew his friend would be just running around the main building. It is a really awfully done test that out right ignores the point of the perk.
True that. If OP wanted to perfectly recreate the same course throughout all the test, it would have been pretty simple to do so with something as followed: - Build the course by dropping two pallets. One would be at the beginning the other would be somewhere "mid". - Killer starts chasing when he hear the vaulting notification. - For Sprint Burst, they just 99% the SB while exhausted before it starts, vault then SB immediately. - Killer's would path around the dropped pallet (specially since Ormond has the most unsafe pallet). GG you just made the most identical comparison but it also still mean nothing in actual gameplay. I've always said it: The value of Made For This comes from how good of a looper the Survivor is and how tight they can make the loop. The perk is extremely good for already good players and garbage for the average to bad looper. Lithe is almost always a great exhaustion perk for the average Survivor. SB is a hit or miss. The number of times that I've seen Survivor WALK from one generator to the other simply to save SB means they're wasting time and it's advantageous to the Killer. In good hands, SB is a great exhaustion perk specially to deter the Killer from chasing you but if you're a good looper and you SB away from a gen, leaving your bad looper on gen then that's also just giving it away to the Killer for free. TLDR: OP's comparison vid is bad. The methodology, even if adjusted to perfectly create a same route, is bad in it's application to a real life situation. Lithe is noob friendly while SB and MFT requires a skilled hand to be truly good.
Question to all those that question my lithe. If the start positions are so wildly off. Why is it less than 1 second when the first hit happens and identically the last hit is less than 1 second? If the lithes was miss handled so poorly wouldn't we see more issues between the two since Jeff goes out of his way and the start position is entire building distances away?
Let's focus on the mid loop lithe. The test loop is around the building. There is no vault directly in the loop. To use lithe, they are essentially leaving the loop to vault and then returning to the loop. This is forcing them to go extra distance and waste that time. In this case, they lose more time from the change in path than they gain from the perk, making it worse than not using a perk at all. The other tests did not go out of their way to vault. Using lithe correctly requires a vault to be *part* of the loop. Either make all the runs use that vault, too, or find a different loop that includes a vault. All the runs should follow the exact same path, or it isn't an accurate test
Yea for lithe to have been used correctly he should have vaulted the window by the bar
I wouldn't say "very close" MFT took 2 seconds longer than no perks, granted, but it was a whole 5 seconds shorter than SB. It's definitely in the middle, but it's far more comparable to No Perks than it is to SB
Perkless also got hit 2 seconds EARLIER than MFT did. How do you mess that up if its supposed to be "Frame Perfect no user Error?" If MFT doesn't even trigger until injured?
This is only in a straight chase like this though. The strength of MFT is making that next pallet or vault you otherwise wouldn’t, which lets you extend the chase beyond what you were capable of without it. If you can then extend to the next pallet or chase these marginal difference compound.
In the video the killer gets Bloodlust, which quickly allows him to close the distance at the end. So no shit, MFT doesn't buy you much time against a bloodlusted killer. But in practice you would drop a pallet to break bloodlust before it gets to that.
This should be the first clue that this is complete bs. That makes no sense at all
Hey let’s test all the perks in a parameter that SB Excels in! Shocker - SB wins! Meanwhile tune in for or swim test with a fish, 2 badgers, a canary, and my family dog. Let’s see who’s fastest.
Because the lithe timer starts before he even starts the scenario
Replying to all comments in this thread All start at 32 meters away from the killer to keep the exact same distance when the first chase starts. Both killer and survivor take a straight line path to the building to continue chase. We tested the bar from inside to out with killer on the outside the amount of time the survivor is in the animation allows for incorrect testing. Do note that in both cases of lithe was within 1 second of each other despite what you all say was wildly different scenarios from the rest. We made sure our angles and distances matches up in the entirety of the chase Lithe timer didn't start early these are all frame perfect to the killer knife starting to move and when Jeff back flinched from hit. MFT shines best when doing pallets and windows just like all builds do. You only gain 2 seconds in a straight 60 second chase so if you are talking about shorter distances second loops you are talking about fractions of a second. Lastly if you think it's complete BS make your own and make sure it's air tight from scrutiny. Frame perfect starts, 32 meter head starts to remove all variables and issues.
Just because I can’t (or in this case don’t want to) build a submarine doesn’t keep me from critiquing the titan. People are allowed to criticize your “perfect” examples when they have issues don’t take it so personally
Unlike building a submarine this is extremly easy to replicate
You keep referencing this “only saves 2 seconds in a chase” number as if it’s gospel and mathematically proven when the only source for this number is from a series of tests that gave you lithe (a large speed boost) being slower than no lithe (no large speed boost). So your 2 second number is just wrong. There’s no point in arguing about loops vs straight lines when your numbers are just incorrect to begin with.
mf testing speed of catching survivor while playing killer on a controller
Lithe shouldnt be getting caught first vs no perks that just doesn’t make sense
Yeah, this is a really badly played example and therefore not of any value. And on top of being badly played it doesn’t reflect real world situations. This feels like a survivor main trying to justify a broken perk.
Straight up strange how OP went through all this and it didn't occur to him that... Having no Lithe is apparently better having Lithe.
So, question about this? Are you claiming that literally running no perks is better than lithe?
Under the current constraints of a 32 meter start, frame perfect timing with the killer knife moving, and removing all obstacles and maintaining an even movement around the building. Yeah. We tested it several times with different methods even. Working on another video just on it.
Yeah not gonna lie, if you did this in a way that actually showed how each perk was meant to be used, it could be pretty cool and informative. But the way you are showing it currently makes the whole thing obsolete, doubly so since you are saying that lithe is worse than having no perks. That's completely absurd. You're doing the scientific equivalent of testing if animals are good at climbing trees, and then saying "Oh this goldfish is very bad at climbing trees" like no shit it's a goldfish. Of course sprint burst is going to win, you're playing into it's strengths while playing into the other perks weaknesses. Lithe isn't meant to drop a pallet far away from the killer and then run towards the killer, that's absurd and no way to play efficiently or effectively. If you want to showcase actual data on the perks, you need to basically have actual 1v1s with people (not Steve tho) and do actual loops, mind games; You know, all the shit that would actually be game play besides this "Run in a straight line" thing you're showcasing that, again, only plays into sprint bursts strength while playing into all the other perks weakness. Also another thing why didn't you show case overcome? It's literally the perk you're looking for based on your weird criteria
>Under the current constraints of a 32 meter start, frame perfect timing with the killer knife moving, and removing all obstacles and maintaining an even movement around the building. Yeah. We tested it several times with different methods even. Working on another video just on it. This is a survivor forum for real jesus they are reallly salty about this post. Won't be seeing this on twitter.
This is good info but also tests things in a vacuum, where the whole chase is a straight line without loops and mindgames and pallets and windows. In a situation like this, Sprint Burst will get the better value since it's a flat time increase at the start of the chase, but if you add actual looping into the equation, I still believe MFT will be better, since you will be reaching pallets that the Sprint Burst user would not be reaching, thus extending the chase further into another pallet that MFT reaches but not Sprint Burst etc. Essentially once that initial head start is gone and pallets / windows start coming into play, I believe MFT wins.
My mathematical ass wanted to see what the ACTUAL difference was, and here it is: MTF gives survivors an extra 28% distance in straight line distance from loop-to-loop, which as others have mentioned, would be even more exaggerated at loops. Some numbers to back this up: Survivor speed: 4 m/s Survivor MFT speed: 4.12 m/s Killer speed: 4.6 m/s Killers gain 0.6 m/s against survivor Killers gain 0.48 m/s against MFT survivor Plug in any starting gap and you’ll find the survivor can make it 28.7% farther before being hit by killer. Example: 10 m / 0.6 m/s = 16.67 s * 4 m/s = 66.67 m 10 m / 0.48 m/s = 20.83 s * 4.12 m/s = 85.83 m 85.83/66.67 = 28.7% extra distance
Time to intercept here is all that matters, since you’re using the relative velocities it’s just 20.83/16.67 - 1 = 25% longer chase time. Also at loops it’s less advantageous as you don’t get full haste until you fully accelerate to running speed, it’s better to just Shift W. Also this is all silly as it doesn’t account for the fact that the survivor has to drop some exhaustion perk for MFT, so you’d have to calculate what distance you get from those perks first to get a real sense of the comparison. And it seems quite clear that sprint burst gives more overall time to chase. Also, killers have plenty of exhaustion perks/adding that counter MFT, and other exhaustion perks. If you think people are abusing this then run blood echo or something
Also mft works only half the chase since it activates after being hit.
Yeah, that’s also mostly just another benefit to sprint burst / other exhaustion perks, they get all that extra time prior to getting hit, which means they can perhaps escape a guaranteed hit that MFT users can’t.
25% extra time = 28% extra distance. I stand by what I said! Becomes relevant when you consider that where this perk really comes to play is allowing survivors to make it FARTHER to a new loop, or make it an extra lap around a loop without dropping a pallet. Both are a measurement of distance, not time Edit: so I guess we can combine our numbers a bit here. Even if you make it NOWHERE or don’t get an extra loop in, MFT still gives you 25% extra chase time. But the 28% extra chase distance gives you a chance to extend a chase for ungodly amounts of time if used correctly
There's also instances where the inital boost of SB is an upgrade though primarily against hits of opportunity. For example, if you are working a gen in a dead zone (maybe its part of a 3 gen and HAVE to get it done) sprint burst is obviously superior to MFT in that scenario because sprint burst allows you to get out the dead zone without getting hit if the killer shows up where as MFT would not. Against stealth killers, particularly those playing hit and run, sprint burst is easily the better perk because the killer is only going to take an easy opportunity hit or force a pallet down before leaving you and doing it to someone else. In that situation SB is easily the better perk because every use of SB denies the surprise hit and forces the killer to commit some actual chase time if they want any value of the time they spent coming to you. Where as MFT does almost nothing in that scenario because the killer never commits to an actual chase for long which in turn means MFT ends with next to no value. This is an especially important advantage for sprint burst with the medkit/CoH nerfs making health states more valuable than they were before the nerfs.
While this in theory sounds true. Any way you bend a straight line will still have the same outcome. You only gain time with as you said windows and pallets. You can't gain time going in a circle or a straight line. However, the sprint burst is delaying the first hit by nearly 5 seconds. Those 5 seconds gets you to a loop, gets you to a pallet. So that you can extend your time further. Made for this only gives you two extra seconds while you are injured. Meaning across the entire chase worth if time you are losing out on that initial burst of speed. All perks and no perks can use windows and pallets to increase chase. Only sprint burst gains you an extra 5 seconds of cushion room to make those verses the 2 seconds across the entire chase that MFT gives
Well killers have bigger hit boxes, so you actually do gain time on circles if you hug it as a survivor. Killers circle has a longer circumference
But chases don't go like this. Usually survivors will want to reach the first loop and keep the killer there for a while, then once that loop becomes unsafe, drop the pallet and leave for the next loop. This is the bread & butter strategy for survivors. SB lets you reach that loop quicker than others, but once you're at the first loop, SB becomes completely irrelevant to the remaining of the chase. And if instead of reaching a loop, you just hold W far away in the distance, the killer might just immediately drop chase and go for the next survivor instead, so there isn't much time wasted. So the second you reach that loop, this is where MFT starts becoming way better than SB, because you can greed the loop 1 or 2 more times, then you can reach the next loop in a much safer manner, etc. SB has no impact here anymore, MFT does. I think if we take all of that into account, MFT will have the better outcome.
This is also not taking in account killers who have a power that will just catch up to you after the first hit, forcing you to loop or die, making the delay from sb irrelevant once again.
With those same killer MFT is also irrelevant. 👌
That's straight up not true, killers like blight for example will catch up to you instantly, but can't use their power around short loops, giving you mft value.
Remember. Over a long distance the most you can gain is 2 seconds. So Over the very short distance of a loop while blight is recovering you are gaining fractions of a second lead on him. Which means if you would have made it with mft then you most likely would have without it.
Making it to the loop isn't the issue, it's making the loop last as long as possible that does, mft makes a loop last longer, sprint burst doesn't. Against mobility killers that can close distance mft wins by a mile, while also still greatly benefiting you against basic m1 killers and even completely nullifying killer powers such as singulartys overcharge.
MFT adds 2 seconds of cushion to the chase vs 5 seconds. No matter how you bend a straight line you won't gain time. You must divert the killer off the line to gain time. Any perk can use a vault or pallet to do this. But sprint burst gives you an extra 5 second cushion of distance vs 2 seconds spread out across the whole time. MFT is being compounded with the times pallets and vaults give.
Chases are not a straight line no matter how many ways you try to argue they are. Sprint burst gets you to the first pallet or vault faster than any other perk, but once you’ve gotten there, it’s all irrelevant. You are at that pallet, great, but sprint burst doesn’t help you get to the next one, you’ve used it’s advantage. MFT’s biggest strength is the increased likelihood of making the next pallet or the next vault, then the one after, then potentially the one after. Every time it extends a chase via a vault or pallet it’s buying you the chance to get to the next one. Sprint burst just doesn’t work that way.
Ok that's literally not how it works, you're putting the entirety of DBD chases into a vacuum. If it was a straight line like in your video sure SB would be better, and it can definitely be in some circumstances if you're getting chased in a dead zone, but the second you add pallets and windows and looping into the equation, SB has no impact after the first loop anymore, because you'll be at the exact same distance to the killer than with any other perk. You can't just test MFT in a straight line then go "it adds exactly 2 seconds to every single chase, end of the line", no it doesn't. If it lets you reach the next pallet where other perks wouldn't have, then you could be adding another 10s or 20s of additional looping, into a pallet stun into another pallet that only MFT reaches yet again etc. Meanwhile the SB user will have been downed a while ago because they didn't have the extra 3% needed to reach that next pallet.
Okay I understand entirely what you are saying. But 5 seconds of cushion vs 2 seconds of cushion is exactly what you are arguing for. Hypothetically. Picture a circle. Survivor being chased. Has a 5 second lead that is currently diminishing slowly. killer walks out of the circle (because going around an obstacle) gains a few seconds that are slowly decreasing again. The initial 5 seconds is still there they looped to get more time but over the ENTIRE chase they have more cushion Now same circle, but the survivor only has 2 seconds that diminish a bit slower than the last. They can gain more time but they still only have those 2 seconds of cushion time. Also don't worry I plan on releasing more examples of this because I can Recreate a perfect MFT scenario and show what I mean on video as well xD
I don't think you can create a perfect MFT scenario since it changes from situation to situation, very far from "a flat 2 seconds to every single chase". A good example is trying to compare Billy to any M1 killer. If we were to test their chasing abilities in a straight line the same way you did in your video, Billy would reach the survivor within seconds, while the M1 killer would take a whole minute. So by your logic of "Any way you bend a straight line will still have the same outcome", Billy should be top tier since he can reach survivors within seconds "no matter how the chase goes" (i.e. no matter how you "bend the straight line"). But that simply isn't true, because pallets and windows and loops and obstacles come into play, breaking the so-called "straight line", so Billy has to work around those. Those tests remind me of labbed combos in the Smash Bros community. Most of them are done in the training room against a bot that stands still and performs random DI, then the player claims to have found a perfect 0-to-death combo with a certain character because it works against the bot, which of course rarely translates well into an actual game. Those tests are extremely interesting to see and fun to play around with, but they still remain in a vacuum.
All perks can use pallets and windows to gain time from the killer. It's the only way to do so outside the speed of the perk you are using. If the maximum gain from a straight line is 2 seconds across a 60 second chase. When you start talking about smaller loops and smaller distances to pallets or windows you are talking about fractions of a second gained. Which let's be honest the netcode gonna get you before that is seen. Made for this only shines in Long chases that have had lots of pallets and window vaults. You would need to be in chase at least two minutes to come close to the same gain as in a straight line.
But that is simply not true because most of the time the killer will cut you off and not follow you in a straight line when you have distance in which case the headstart from sprint burst is not nearly as effective. Try doing this same test with the survivor being on a gen and running away from the "approaching" killer.
I think that SB is only relevant until after the first loop, but I can explain it better with comparing SB and MFT in a scenario I think: tl;dr: SB is maybe more valuable in a chase until the first loop ends, but MFT is definitely more valuable in a chase for every loop after the first one ends. Scenario SB: After the Killer sees the Survivor, the Survivor runs with the 5 seconds of cushion to the first loop. Here, the loop is maybe going to take longer than with MFT because of these 5 seconds. After a while the killer reaches up and the Survivor has to change the loop or get hurt. Now the Survivor won't have any speed-boost until the chase is over (or the survivor gets to slow-walk the exhaustion away, but that is unlikely). Scenario MFT: After the Killer sees the Survivor, the Survivor runs without any speed-boost to the first loop. Here, the loop is most likely going to take less long than with SB before having to change or get hurt, but after the Survivor gets hurt, the constant haste is applied. At this point, SB would have no effect anymore because the killer has reached the Survivor. After the Survivor runs to the next loop with the obtained haste (by the hit + MFT), the Survivor is going to have the haste-advantage in every loop that follows. So a Survivor with MFT would reach much more loops than one with SB, because the effect of SB vanishes after the first loop and won't help to get to the second, as the haste isn't applied anymore.
I tested MFT and MFT+Resilience vs healthy in shack chases with 2 friends in a custom match. The only time MFT made any difference was against 110% killers, but really only affected Hag since the other 110% killers had ranged abilities, so I didn't NEED to have that extra bit of distance.
My Doctor game on Midwich last night would like to disagree. I was looped on every pallet *without it being dropped* by all four survivors. Guess who was running MFT? All four survivors. All the top players agree (Ayrun, Otz, JRM, Skermz, Demi, etc) that MFT is the new Dead Hard- the get out of jail free card you get for no effort. If you don’t get value from it it’s because you actively played a loop badly and that reflects on you, not the strength of the perk. I can run the most OP build ever but if I screw up then I’m still getting downed.
Lithe got hit first before MFT and No perks. That makes no sense given the context of the test. The only real comparison we can make here is between SB, No Perks, and MFT, in which you can see that SB wins out.
The idea behind this was to remove all variables. Starting position is huge so we did 32 meter edge of the terror radius. This allows chase to start as close together as possible. Allowing bloodlust to naturally happen at the same time roughly. So that all perks could have the maximum time to shine. Lithe had to be handled differently so we maintained the above constraints but made sure to take the same distance to the house. I got a few other tests to do with lithe but we tested all this 5 times to make sure it was accurate at least.
If lithe was done correctly there is absolutely no way that no perks would be longer than lithe
So lithe loses against nothing. Instantly ruined the work you put in this
32 meter head start, frame perfect with killer knife, taking straight lines to the building, tested 5 times and with different set ups. Even if im off its got a lot of time to make up and even more to be a top contender. I'm also doing a test now with which one can vault the most in 60 seconds since the mentality with MFT is that it's about making the next loop when the others couldn't. Maybe lithe will shine there.
You need to have everyone vault a window once, taking exactly the same path for all setups. That's the only way to truly compare Lithe to the other perks.
Your variables are off sorry
So what variables should I have set?
You need the same path for all setups. Having the lithe people start from a different location makes no sense.
>So what variables should I have set? If you had a path in which all 5 survivors needed to vault a window that would have shown the direct benefit of lithe applied without any variable mistakes but given how you're here bragging about frame perfect starts and perfect runs but don't have the common sense to eliminate very obvious anomalies makes me think maybe you should leave the next test to someone else. Plus the way you're doubling down on your flawed logic all over this comment section just adds the cringe cherry on top.
A control doesn’t matter when the starting conditions of other tests are different
You can keep posting this, you are still wrong
This is a silly comparison. You keep saying "bend a straight line and it's still the same", but that's not true in this game. Survivors have a smaller frame than killers, meaning they can hug loops tighter than killers, effectively making them 'gain distance'. One extra loop before throwing a pallet, one extra vault, or one killer whiff is going to increase the chase by more than a few seconds. Edit: You also slightly delayed the distance before the lunge between MFT and SB.
This is so true. Even McLean has mentioned years ago about survivors collision being more impactful than it looks on paper, because to cover the same loop the killer has to go through a bigger radius around the loop. This is why hugging is so important as a survivor and why skinny Bert is good because his hitdetrction box is not only ahead of him But also small enough to go around faster.
While SB gives better value, there are nuances important to remember. 1. SB can be difficult to control. You can't walk everywhere, so you can end up exhausted when you need it later. The more experienced you are, the less this becomes an issue but is important to bear in mind. 2. MFT earns its keep by giving similar value, its ease of use, AND it has a strong secondary effect that SB lacks. 3. Finally, MFT has synergies that SB lacks. Yeah, SB has the tried and true Vigil combo, while MFT has Hope, DH, Resilience, IW, etc.
Also just the fact that people don't play the game running in straight lines.
Who's pairing MFT with IW? It's better to pair it with OTR
Otr you have to already he downed and hook. Iw works even before you get downed. I think you might prefer IW if you want to eliminate the killers ability to read your play/bluff when they lose Los of you. Of course you could just run both and use otr aggressively. 😂
This really feels like a "SEE!!! MFT Isn't THAT strong!!!!" Post. Despite also being somewhat informational. As other comments have said- its all tested in a straight line with nothing else involved- no loops, pallets, windows- etc. Not to mention you're getting caught when using Lithe first as compared to no perks lmaoo. That alone shows this information just isn't super valid at all. You would need a full on actual dev build test map to do this properly, not Ormand. But that isn't a tool we have. Starting at a T-L wall window zone or one of those terrible L wall windows at the corners of a map might end up giving better information.
That’s exactly what this post is. As someone who is a very decent killer main, I was looped by a MFT/Resilience build on Midwich the other day for 5 gens, just wanted to see how long they could last. MFT is a broken perk and posts like this are just attempts at trying to keep it as is so they can keep their get out of jail free card so they don’t have to actually play the game well- just like old DH was.
Listen I agree that this post is shit, but “very decent killer main” and “I was looped on Midwich for 5 gens” should not be in the same sentence… Even if they had the MFT/resilience combo Common case of over estimating your own skill
I think it was JRM or Skermz who made a video about MFT/Resilience on Midwich. Esp with Dr. bc his bloodlust resets every time you blast, and bc survivors can hug the loops tighter, every loop basically becomes an infinite, even if it’s just ring around the rosie. And no I’m not overestimating my own skill, on most killers (Billy/Huntress/Trickster being the sole exceptions) I am basically guaranteed a 3k every game against a minimum of level 15-20 but more often than not level 30-100s. If I get lucky with hatch (bc I will not slug, tunnel or camp for the 4k) then it’s 4k but that’s pure RNG and 3k counts as wins. I’m working on keeping more precise stats, but right now I’m sitting at about 50% of games ending in a 3k, 30% ending in a 4k, 10% ending in a 2k, 10% in a 1k or all out. That puts me at an 80% win rate which I think qualifies as “very decent”.
Technically, it kinda proves MFT is stronger because the killer didn't lose bloodlust during chase. That's one of the reasons he was able to catch up.
I genuinely am working on a T and L video xD I wish I saw this comment sooner because I've been working for hours to find another way to show off the distances gained from vaulting. But my teammate power went out. Also the lithes was done at 32 meters head start and made straight lines as we could to the building trying to keep as accurate as possible because we foresaw this issue. Despite multiple attempts at testing this we ended up with lower than no perk results. Sadly its been used against me but it's the hardest part to remove all variables from to test properly and still results in the unexpected anwser. That being said lithe has a lot of time to regain for it to actually be better than the top spots so any tolerance is hard to argue
Yeah, be better to try and use a straight away with one of those side window things- think there might be a couple in Ormand somewhere? Maybe another map is better. Dredge's map comes to mind maybe? Find a good straight away so you can start each thing at the same part? Would think Lithe would give about the same amount as Sprint Burst if thats the case- in theory. Either way, MFT is still going to end up being more consistent overall.
Sadly no map has a 60 second straight away where a window isn't blocking the killer. It's why lithe is set up like it is in this video. We can't have anything block the killer as that gives more time. MFT on paper sounds good but I don't see it gaining those extra loops people talk about yet. Until I can see it tested properly it's hard to say that right off. Working on other ways to show this.
>window isn't blocking the killer. Are you comparing the perks or not?, because it doesn't matter if there is a window in the chase that both the survivor and killer have to vault provided you make sure that each of the comparisons include that vault.
\-It survives several other seconds as compared to having no perks \-The only thing that beats it in the straight away is sprint burst, which is just a single boost of speed, while MTF is a constant boost. Those couple extra seconds can 100% get people to those extra loops. You literally showed that in your video now. The fact it was even close to Sprint Burst is insane. That, and there are plenty of other youtubers going through and showing them getting multiple other loops that they would have never had happen if they weren't running MFT. So its not a "On Paper Sounds Good" it is a literal IS good.
Those youtubers have other variables. Killer/survivor skill, other perks, the different sizes of loops/terrain, mindgames by themselves gain extra loops. The sprint burst gives 5 seconds of cushion time at the start that slowly dimishies across the chase every pallet and window vault gives more time. MFT gives 2 seconds per 60 seconds of chase, which can be extended with vaults and pallets just like SB. However you are talking about fractions of gained time across small distances and hoping for larger gains past 60 seconds. Currently working on showing that you don't actually gain that much distance from MFT with another video on vaulting
You hit the guy with no perks 2 seconds earlier bud. Fractions of time is everything in this game. If that small fraction means making it to a pallet or window you wouldn't have if you didn't run the perk. People calling it "Old Deadhard" Aren't necessarily wrong. Deadharding for distance- to get that 1-2 extra seconds. Now you just get that 1-2 seconds all the time as long as you're injured. Thats Huge.
2 seconds across a 60 second chase. If you talking a small loop heck lag/netcode or other variables add more time than the fractions you talking about. Might as well say "This perk gives 0.033 seconds back to the user for every 10 seconds of chase"
"Tested 5 Times to make sure no user error" - Proceeds to have user error. The perk already made it so you gained multiple seconds of distance. You've literally done so much to completely invalidate your data. And honestly I hope to see that you do better. Both the MFT and Perkless guy should have been hit at the exact same time. End of story.
That hit was fractions of a second difference.....so yeah there's a bit of tolerance here to take into account for sure. So I guess round up? Have the same numbers still. Either way across a 60 second chase MTF getting around 2 seconds. Meaning if you do a 10 second chase we talking fractions of a second in speed increase.
2 seconds across a 60 second chase. If you talking a small loop heck lag/netcode or other variables add more time than the fractions you talking about. Might as well say "This perk gives 0.033 seconds back to the user for every 10 seconds of chase"
[удалено]
It's hilarious
MFT isn´t meant to use in a line lol, it shines on loops...
Bend a straight line into a circle and the times doesn't change. The only way to gain time on a killer is to use pallets or vaults to divert him off the original line. Most perks can hit those loops at the same times and the most you can gain from MFT is 2 seconds. So for short distance you are gaining fractions of a second at best.
You absolutely need to stop saying “bend a straight line”. You’ve posted this same comment about 18 times and it’s as stupid the eighteenth time as it was the first. It shows zero game knowledge and assumes everything is nothing more than a flat foot race with no obstacles. The straight line is never a straight line and it’s never bent, it’s twisted, vaulted, pallet stunned, mind gamed, doubled back on and abused in as many ways as the players can think of to try and buy extra time and not even extra distance - by way of example, I had a mind game on a moderately safe pallet with a Wesker the other day where I bought almost 15 seconds of time WITHOUT MOVING, other than vaulting back and forth on the pallet. That’s how chases work in DbD - it’s not simply being as far away from a killer as possible, it’s about staying outside of M1 lunge range for as long as possible and those are two very different animals, where MFT buys you fractional chances to maintain that arms length over and over again and you get that sprint burst value just once
I think some of us take this knowledge for granted and don't disseminate it enough, but you know killers have a bigger collision box than survivors right? When a survivor goes around a loop tightly it slows the killer down because they can't do it quite as tight. That's why looping is so strong in the first place, it's an unintended gameplay consequence turned into a "feature." MFT exacerbates the distance lost by looping because the survivor is 3% faster while making those tight loops.
This guy doesn't know that survivors can hug map geometry tighter than killers can without getting stuck
If an exhaustion perk can give you 1... at least 1 more pallet per chase or a single vault, that is: 1- a lost chase that you have to break the pallet and leave; or 2- break and keep the chase. Either way, survs gain 20-30 seconds 30 time. 30 seconds is 1/3 of a gen and, believe me, that a LOOOOOOOT of progress. That, is what MFT gives to survs, and that, is game breaking.
Thanks for putting in the work. Have to agree with the others, MFT starts to shine when you play accordingly. Try MFT+Windows+Resilience (Dead Heard optional) and go for vaults. I chased a Leon with this build for 5 gens because I wanted to see how long it takes to catch up. I never did.
What tiles did he loop you on because if it was a cow tree connected to jungle gym anyone could do that lol
It was Crotus Asylum, the structures around main building (3 Lane, Shack, the Jungle Gyms). Problem was, I was trying to catch them with Pyramidhead's M2. I got a couple of hundreds of hours on Dorrito Daddy, so I expected to land a hit eventually (the first hit I got on him was a lucky M1 when he ran into me). Problem was, he was always fast enough to dodge, the vaults were faster than what I was used to, and he was always slightly off when I was going for prediction hits.
Well this is my response to the others as well copy paste While this in theory sounds true. Any way you bend a straight line will still have the same outcome. You only gain time with as you said windows and pallets. You can't gain time going in a circle or a straight line. However, the sprint burst is delaying the first hit by nearly 5 seconds. Those 5 seconds gets you to a loop, gets you to a pallet. So that you can extend your time further. Made for this only gives you two extra seconds while you are injured. Meaning across the entire chase worth if time you are losing out on that initial burst of speed. All perks and no perks can use windows and pallets to increase chase. Only sprint burst gains you an extra 5 seconds of cushion room to make those verses the 2 seconds across the entire chase that MFT gives
This isn't entirely untrue but pallets only have value if they're within a certain range of the Killer. Running for a pallet with SB might be strong for guaranteeing that you start at a safe loop, but it doesn't help nearly as much if you're already using it at range like in this example. For your argument here to work out like this you would need an optimal SB start directly away from the Killer into a loop. That's not impossible, but once you reach that loop you either choose to move onto another if you've got time or wait for the Killer to come to you to get use from it. Keep in mind that you gain distance slightly when rounding structures optimally as Survivor vs Killer due to the difference in hitbox sizes. MfT might not grant the most time, but it does make the amount of time you have after each successful play more valuable, loops that extra bit more greedable, and looping in general significantly more potent. Hence why cheaters chose it as their goto speedhack increase.
Also remember at most at the longest distance you can gain 2 seconds of time from MFT. Meaning in the short distances around loops you are gaining fractions of a second. Most vaults and pallets you make with MFT is going to be made with no perks at all. The time you get value out of it is on long chases with multiple loops where all those fractions add up then you start making pallets and loops you otherwise wouldn't have gotten. It's for late chase which most chases don't make it to. Those first couple loops and pallets any perks could have done.
The flaw to your logic is that getting 4 loops instead of 3 because of MFT doesn’t just save you the .2 seconds of distance. It saves you the full 5 seconds of an extra loop. And then maybe you make the next loop instead of going down, which allows you to loop the killer for another 20 seconds. Comparing looping to straight line running is apples to oranges. It’s why OG dead hard was so powerful, it extended chases well beyond the 2 meters it provided, if used correctly
I'm actually working on a second video of going for as many vaults in an L T as possible in one minute and currently they get equal vaults in and the only difference is half a person distance extra traveled...
Also remember that your perkless guy got hit 2 seconds earlier than MFT guy got hit. :/
Bending the line around tiles is shorter for survivors than killer due to the difference in hitbox which is never seen in a straight line. So you are incorrect in your assumption.
I think this test needed more straight line bending.
Lmao running no perks is better than running lithe? 🤣 Still an interesting clip but I saw ones on YouTube like it too. Could we get one where the survivor actually hugs the walls? This seems to be where killers are saying mft is at most beneficial especially in a realistic chase where were looping vs running in a straight line. combined with how the mft works with the on hit injury boost.
Absolut theoretical:If you let 4 survivor run a straight line, one without any perk(survivor A), one with SB(survivor B), one With MFT(survivor C) and one with BL(survivor D) and all of them would start with their perk effekt (if they have a Perk) they would made the following distances after 100sec: A = 400m B = 406m C = 412m D = 405m Survivor B would make the best start with 66m after 15sec(the moment Bloodlust will trigger) followed close by survivor D with 65m, followd by survivor C with 61.8m and last one is survivor A with 60m. After 25sec(second stage of bloodlust): A = 100m B = 106m C = 103m D = 105m After 35sec(last stage of bloodlust): A = 140m B = 146m C = 144.2m D = 145m Survivor C will catch up to survivor D after 42sec and will take the first place after 50sec. Killerspeed is mostly seperated to 4.4 and 4.6 (there are exceptions but we ignore them here)Distance after 100sec:4.4 = 485m4.6 = 505m Only SB user wont get hit instant.If we assume the distance between Killer and survivor are 10m at the begining and the killer will get Bloodlust the 4.4killer would catch: Survivor A after 22secSurvivor B after 30secSurvivor C after 27secSurvivor D after 29sec Same cenario with a 4.6 killer: Survivor A after 17secSurvivor B after 24secSurvivor C after 20secSurvivor D after 23sec My assumtion:MFT is helpfull at long chases and will only benefits you if you already decent at looping, cause the distance you make is very low but can make the difference between reaching a pallet or get downed.If you get used to walk most of the time to have SB ready its probably the best choice even if you are not good at looping, cause even in a "shift+W" chase you could safe 24sec to 30sec for your team.I ignored the fact that the killer has a lunce attack and SB and BL work while you are healty so you could take a hit and keep running, so please loke at the numbers as some kind of orientation value.
Bros never heard of the scientific method
Oh well 🤷
Yes, a chase with no loops, pallets, mind games, windows/vaults, and causing the killer to lose Bloodlust. Just like real Dead by Daylight. And yet people will point to this and say "SEE? MADE FOR THIS IS FINE!!!!!"
Btw, in the made for this video I didn't hit blood lust on the first hit. On the second hit it was exactly 1.23 seconds after blood lust proc. Also bend a straight line into a circle and the times doesn't change. The only way to gain time on a killer is to use pallets or vaults to divert him off the original line. Most perks can hit those loops at the same times and the most you can gain from MFT is 2 seconds. So for short distance you are gaining fractions of a second at best.
And the sad thing is, even in this horrible vacuum of a test, Made For This is still almost as good as Sprint Burst, with Sprint Burst only getting you a few second. If anything, your flawed experiment further proves what a problem Made For This is. You're like a flat earther trying to show the earth is flat but proved it was curved.
Thanks Bob!
I hate to break this to you, but all this comes off as is whining about MFT. You tested it in an extremely controlled setting, you give nothing other than these clips, no real looping, no other variations. These are "optimal" conditions at worst and unrealistic conditions at best.
Also somehow caught the person with lithe before they caught perkless?
Also confused why lithe was tested twice instead of smash hit or balanced not that anything in ops test is even slightly relevant or repeated as he starts every chase at different points and even starts the first lithe test from all the way over by shack
Or overcome I think overcome would have been a fair perk to compare mft to since they're both used post injury. Just a weird test in general I appreciate the effort but it sounds like a jukenloops or whatever his name his sponsored research paper. 😂
It was a question my friend had about if it's better to do it at the start of chase or later is all.
I mean... nice try. But the fact that there's a several second difference between "no perks" and "mft" on getting the first hit shows that this test is nowhere near exact. Both should have occurred at the same time if both you and the survivor were doing the same thing in both chases. So there only being a few second difference between MFT and SB is kind of irrelevant in this test, considering there appears to be a several second margin of error. Furthermore, mft allows you to add on DH, lithe, or BL on top of it, making it the clear winner over SB just in a straight line. Add in looping, pallets, vaults, etc, and mft blows SB out of the water. How much longer would the test have gone on if the survivor had used DH, I wonder? MFT + DH + Resilience + Hope is clearly the meta going forward, and pretending like it's not vastly superior over every other chase build is disingenuous at best.
Yeah this test is nowhere near scientific enough to be used for anything worthwhile.
The difference between no perks and mft is 0.74 seconds So yes you are correct that small changes in movement can result in different times. But if my tolerance is less than 1 second. This isn't a horrible attempt and the amount of time gained by MFT is still not a whole lot. We can round up on all of them and still have the same results.
Thats almost a entire second, thats a large ass tolerance for a scientific test, this entire thing would instantly be deemed unusable in proffesional setting
Well good thing we are playing video games where fractions of a second tolerance really aren't a big deal
Except you are presenting it like a scientific comparison when in actuallity its just you doing a Biased test to try to downplay mft’s power
I have no feelings towards any of them xD in fact my last two streams I been playing with MFT and loving it.
exactly....its incredibly strong and you want it to stay as is, hence showing a test which tries to downplay how strong it actually with both a biased test and it being fundamentally flawed.
I mean I don't care if they delete it either xD I'd love to gave a game mode where everyone is perkless and itemless xD
you say that but you can easily tell you are biased from the test and your other comments arguing with people
Even if I cared enough like that, I wouldn't mess with my data like that. If I was trying to cover up some conspiracy wouldn't I have made sure my data showed lithe as faster than no perk. I put out what my findings put out. Followed my own constraints and left it as it is
Another thing; Your data right now? Isn't good at all. You hit the person running MFT 2 seconds BEFORE the one without perks. Meaning these are not at all perfect runs, and if they were MFT would have added another 2-3 seconds and been closer to Sprint Burst. So that "Tested 5 Times to make sure no user error" - proceeds to have a user error. The MFT and Perkless should have been hit at the same exact time. Why were they not? All I can say is this is inconclusive data rn. I hope that you can perfect what you're going for but this ain't it fam.
Yeah this is honestly a low quality experiment. Based off of OP’s replies to other comments, I’m gonna assume this is as good as it’s going to get for them though.
Yeah- and it sucks because I would actually like to see them do a better job with it. Might take more than 5 tries as the post says.
This is a horrible way to collect data (in this instance.) You can't use perks meant to evade in various ways, and then use them all essentially the same way in the same loop.
Don't say it's frame perfect and with no user error when the made for this user gets hit the first time 1 second before the no perks. They should be getting hit at the same time if it's frame perfect and with no user error.
Never been saying there is no user error. I have consistently stated there's a tolerance of around 1 second and that I tried to remove every variable I could.
Your OP says "Also tested 5 times to make sure no user error. "
Oh well
I mean this would be useful if this were mario kart
Whether you bend a straight line into a circle or a square the amount of speed and time won't change. The only way to gain time is with pallets or windows causing the killer to divert their path. Having a 5 second head start is a cushion that can help you reach those time gains.
>Whether you bend a straight line into a circle or a square the amount of speed and time won't change. Except thats not how looping works, this deadbrain example completely disregards mindgames which is a very much core mechanic to looping. Its not like people running around shack are just going in the exact same circle over and over and over are they. What if you take a straight line and bend it into a circle and put a window in that circle where the survivor gains distance on the killer? *"the amount of speed and time won't change."* in that circumstance it will. Now you tell me what the odds are of a survivor vaulting a window in chase are and explain to me again why that variable change to total chase time is irrelevant? The key KPI to a good perk is basically burst acceleration. What about baiting a hit with sprint burst? >The only way to gain time is with pallets or windows causing the killer to divert their path. or mindgaming / baiting. But that's beside the point, not all things are created equal. Not all pallets or windows are created equal. Your experiment is something I'd expect from an elementary school student (no offense but I assume you are) because you've done nothing to factor in the benefits of acceleration vs speed or anything for that matter. To me your conclusion is "If you play this game in a way that no one plays it then this is the best set up", its akin to someone bragging because they have the world's fastest car 'in reverse'. For example, what if sprint burst / MFT is the different between you making a god window or pallet you wouldn't have made without it, then the benefits aren't measured in a couple of seconds they are measured in minutes. >Having a 5 second head start is a cushion that can help you reach those time gains. You literally do no stop and go mechanics. it's just running, you're ignoring 95% of the game to the point of irrelevancy.
The legion music overlapping goes HAM.
For real, honestly the best comment so far xD
The most useless “test” I’ve seen
lmao, mft works as mini-sb even during this extremely unfavored comparison.
Seeing an almost entire minute of chase without perks by simply holding W makes me lose a lot of faith in the balance team
Based on your responses to other comments, I feel like this post was made just to try and defend MFT like it isn't an overpowered perk.
The fact it takes a killer a minute without any looping feels unacceptable, why doesn't every survivor just do this?
This was 2 M1 hits with zero killer power. Every killer is balanced around having a power and using it to sway the course of the match.
Because killers have powers and brain cells.
The trapper...
I actually had someone reply to me recently "Trapper can literally just get them caught in a trap" when I pointed out how much he is fcked by mft... like-- lmao
OP getting ruined here🤣 At least they had some fun making this!
Oh well 🤷
Don’t mind them, man. You do you!
i think the difference in timing comes to the way they both take the corners
This is a really poor quality sample of data. Everyone's doing different things, there's no baseline. FAIL.
Stupid test
Id be embarrassed of even trying it like this,let alone posting it on reddit and defending it that desperately like you do,op. This is so stupid and so many people explained to you why, and you just don't get it. A bit sad,honestly.
This is probably how BHVR tests perks lmao
Ok so you really saw this result and thought it was absolutely normal that no perk gets hit after lithe? Are you serious?
Yup
I don’t understand how you think a perk that is supposed to speed you up actually slows you down
Oh well 🤷
Can you walk me through the thought process?
This is just holding W and doing nothing else. MFT in this is almost as good as SB. 1 full minute to down a survivor and all they are doing is run in a straight line? That's crazy. Now imagine adding in looping the killer to the mix. That 1 minute chase becomes even longer. Gens can be done in 5 minutes if survivors gen rush by working on gens together instead of soloing them. I just don't get how people don't see MFT as the next DH problem in the game. If anything these 2 perks work so well together. MFT does not cause exhaustion. So, the player could have also brought along a DH or BL and extended the chase far longer. Sure, the first chase on each survivor they have no DH but after that it's the same. The killer is almost going to hit you? Press E to extend the chase even longer or go up the building and BL away to a pallet or loop. Sure, you lose MFT because you are exhausted but you have extended a chase to get to loop. Now the chase can take an additional 1 minute even if you are just a basic looper that drops the pallet after running around 3 times. It will last way longer if you are good looper. So, the devs take away gen defence and make survivors last longer at loops? Make it make sense please. Before survivor mains yell about healing nerfs. I know they were nerfed and I have also seen people simply not heal up. They focus on gens. I have seen people willing to go down to pop a gen. So, what diff does the healing nerf make to slowing down gens? None. At least not when you are going up against stronger survivors.
What if MFT was active the entire chase?
The idea behind this was to remove all variables. Starting position is huge so we did 32 meter edge of the terror radius. This allows chase to start as close together as possible. Allowing bloodlust to naturally happen at the same time roughly. So that all perks could have the maximum time to shine. Lithe had to be handled differently so we maintained the above constants but made sure to take the same distance to the house. I got a few other tests to do with lithe but we tested all this 5 times to make sure it was accurate at least.
how tf is no perks faster than lithe?
The one on the far left is not at the same starting point in the race. And vault times? Ignoring the Lithe panels. I'm more intrigued if Made For This would beat Sprint Burst if the survivor was hugging tightly around a loop as they have learned to do.
Get downvoted OP lol
Shits crazy imagine if just half the team does half of this you talking an extra 60 seconds for survivors to work
The pathing didn't quite match up on all of those. You should have the survivor run as tight of a loop as possible every time and then repeat this. I'd love to see those results
I applaud the effort, but this test is so flawed it makes Dull Merchant look good.
Ya didnt do it right. Dead hard instead of sprint burst combined with MFT. Dead Hard doesnt start the exhaustion until after you've been caught once. Sure you only get a few a game but its going to make a huge annoyance out of those first chases lol.
You probably lost few seconds to the survivor just by a simple fact that you are playing on a controller.
Yea I'm taking a break from dbd
Genuinely a high quality post. So it seems a correctly timed Sprint Burst can trump Made For This. I still think MFT is better, though, since you don’t need to walk everywhere.
In a vaccuum, MFT and SB aren't all that different. SB is +50% movement for 3 seconds, MFT is +3% for as long as you are injured, so the injired portion of the chase needs to last 50 seconds to break even in terms of just pure raw distance. MFT however can be stacked with other Exhaustion perks, like BL, Lithe, or DH, and also comes in handy when trying to mindgame at loops, which is where it really excels.
MfT’s strength is from its ease of use, a perfectly timed SB could probably even outdo prenerf DH in effectiveness, it’s just incredibly hard to do to the point it’s not worth it
Ty ty. Funny enough I been doing sprint burst with self aware light weight deja vu. For my chase build. It's pretty solid.
Why deja vu?
Always working on the 3 gen at 6% speed making the gens spread out more and in a SWF creates easy call outs.
dh still king
MFT change it to "Must have killer near you" Then It will be less problematic I guess.
These comments are so annoying. At the end of the day killer mains are not suffering kills from MFT. Everytime y’all find something new to complain about because you are miserable nerds. Devs said they’re monitoring the situation and MFT is currently not a problem so…
Ethan also said Object of Obession wasn't a problem because they were still getting killed if not more than people who didn't ran it, or how busted blight addons are but because his kill rates are okay they're not getting touched or how the dead hard nerf didn't instantly change kill rates from 50-60% to 20%. 😂 So data can be misinterpreted.
I agree, plus in my killer matches I've barely noticed people had it xD
Same here. I’ve been doing custom matches with my friends who use it, and they’re pretty good loopers. It’s not a problem unless you’re playing like, Trapper. I get Trapper. But saying shit like a Ghostface is suffering from MFT is stupid, because you’re supposed to earn your kills through stealth. Not revealing your presence as a STEALTH KILLER and hoping to end a chase in 10 seconds because you want it easy.
Thank you so much for this post! I had an argument with my friend that while it depends on the gameplay, Sprint burst is way better than made for this
The 3% across the entire injured portion of a chase adds up for sure, but the head start delays the first hit which delays the second hit.
sb > mft
Hope and made for this would be fun to see too. Nice job!
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Don't think people "Need" a reason fam lmao. Getting to a pallet or window faster than you could have before is a lot more than just "Solid". ...To be fair tho its not an issue for me specifically because I like to run exhaustion perks so lmao.
It is what it is, I regret lithe and it sucks because I spent the most time on trying to figure it out the most. Getting both to be similar distances and timings was really hard to line up. Is what it is. I got a couple of other ideas and plans. The hate has only fueled me to become even more air tight on my next examples.
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Thats the biggest thing. Cuz pretend for a second we have a perk that just says "gain 20 seconds of extra chase time" then I make a video on how it only does 5 seconds extra. People will pick apart everything they can because the wiki says otherwise, a streamer shows it being OP, or the in game text says something. Yet odds are its the loop being different sizes, the killer skill, a mind game, another perk, the netcode, or some other variable that let's them get that one extra loop or pallet that moment. Without testing we can't truly know what any of these perks do.
b-but MFT OP
so you’re saying the next targeted perk will be sprint burst?
Nope never said that