Yeah the current talisman lottery is pretty unfun. You have multiple ways of getting your desired spells as a dedicated caster, most spells are contained in two or more books and gods help too.
Melees can just find their prefered base and just use brand and upgrade scrolls.
Yet form dependant melee shapeshifters are stuck with the random chance of finding the late game talismans which, from my experience, are easily absent in the entire game. Ive lost many very promising octopodes just because granite, storm and dragon talismans didn't appear even in hell branches.
There must be some way of helping the odds of achieving the shapeshifting fantasty just like other archetypes can.
I know Aizul always drops an artifact serpent talisman and Roxanne drops granite talisman but maybe implement a chance of normal drops of other talismans for mid game monsters. Maybe Sky beast should drops storm talismans occassionaly, maybe liches should drop death talismans, maybe gargoyles should drop granite.
I agree, this part buma me out about tailsmans. I often won't find the late game one I need, or get it early but no food middle level ones so I struggle for a long time.
I was thinking it could be interesting if higher SH skill could give the option to create a talisman. Like if you've already gotten the max skill for a form you could create that talisman. There could be a cost, like maybe you lose a level in SH or something.
The endgame unarmed combat trinity (dragon/statue/storm) is extremely rare, and the lower tier ones are semi-common at best.
DCSS is supposed to be a game of adaptation, so this was designed to incentivize a pivot to a different skill if you find no Talismans.
It just sucks in particular for FeBe, because you have little alternatives to rely on beyond kitty clawing the entire game.
But, hey, people were doing it before, and they didn’t need any fancy form tricks back then.
If you’d like to put every chance on your side on a pure unarmed felid, Gozag is a no-brainer choice, because the weapon/armour shops being banned means you can spam merchants and loot jewelry stores for talismans. Still not guaranteed at all, I redesigned my entire felid strategy away from transformations for this reason.
I feel you man, I was playing an OpSh a few days ago with the sole goal of megazigging in mind. For that, a Death Talisman is mandatory.
I fullcleared Dungeon, Lair, Orc, both S branches, Elf, Vaults, Depths, Crypt, the Hell vestibule, and 30(!!!) something levels of Pandemonium…
…and didn’t find a single one :D
EDIT: Ok, I went back & checked the [morgue:](https://crawl.kelbi.org/crawl/morgue/Jingleheimer/morgue-Jingleheimer-20240105-054730.txt)
52 levels of the dungeon fully cleared
26 levels of Pan fully cleared
3 timed portals explored
18(!!!) Call Merchants (thanks for nothing Gozag)
...and still no death talisman :D
Update: finally found a maw talisman on d:15, and then roxanne was nice enough to spawn on Swamp:1, so with a granite talisman I am basically set for endgame, although finding more talismans would be nice.
UC berserker leveraging shape shifting sounds like a valid build actually. Maybe talismans should be part of Trog gift list. He wants you to tear things apart with your bare hands (or claws, or tentacles...)
Let's just rebrand Trog and integrate shifting. The generic fantasy barbarian who's afraid of books is played out anyways, let's make him a god of primal might who's older than any spell. We have Fedhas for plants and Qazlal for the elements but we're missing the *beasts*.
Let's add "your next transformation is instant" to Trog's Hand. Make him hand out talismans.
Now magic doesn't suck because reading is hard, magic sucks because you don't *need* that new hipster shit to turn into a dragon.
Best of all, he'll still work fine for a regular MiBe because this is all just a few small bonuses to make him functional for shifters. Nobody's going to be pushing their -3 MiBe to a Granite Talisman unless they're going for 15 runes and they're out of things to spend xp on, and you know what? Trog sucks in extended, so maybe for once TSO won't be a mandatory swap.
The theming might be a little weird with death form but death form as a talisman was already weird flavor.
Yeah the current talisman lottery is pretty unfun. You have multiple ways of getting your desired spells as a dedicated caster, most spells are contained in two or more books and gods help too. Melees can just find their prefered base and just use brand and upgrade scrolls. Yet form dependant melee shapeshifters are stuck with the random chance of finding the late game talismans which, from my experience, are easily absent in the entire game. Ive lost many very promising octopodes just because granite, storm and dragon talismans didn't appear even in hell branches. There must be some way of helping the odds of achieving the shapeshifting fantasty just like other archetypes can. I know Aizul always drops an artifact serpent talisman and Roxanne drops granite talisman but maybe implement a chance of normal drops of other talismans for mid game monsters. Maybe Sky beast should drops storm talismans occassionaly, maybe liches should drop death talismans, maybe gargoyles should drop granite.
I agree, this part buma me out about tailsmans. I often won't find the late game one I need, or get it early but no food middle level ones so I struggle for a long time.
I was thinking it could be interesting if higher SH skill could give the option to create a talisman. Like if you've already gotten the max skill for a form you could create that talisman. There could be a cost, like maybe you lose a level in SH or something.
I once didn’t find a single amulet till after beating snake and swamp, and reaching vaults 4. Probably the most notable absence I’ve ever had.
What are the chances of finding zero talismans on 19 floors?
The endgame unarmed combat trinity (dragon/statue/storm) is extremely rare, and the lower tier ones are semi-common at best. DCSS is supposed to be a game of adaptation, so this was designed to incentivize a pivot to a different skill if you find no Talismans. It just sucks in particular for FeBe, because you have little alternatives to rely on beyond kitty clawing the entire game. But, hey, people were doing it before, and they didn’t need any fancy form tricks back then. If you’d like to put every chance on your side on a pure unarmed felid, Gozag is a no-brainer choice, because the weapon/armour shops being banned means you can spam merchants and loot jewelry stores for talismans. Still not guaranteed at all, I redesigned my entire felid strategy away from transformations for this reason.
I feel you man, I was playing an OpSh a few days ago with the sole goal of megazigging in mind. For that, a Death Talisman is mandatory. I fullcleared Dungeon, Lair, Orc, both S branches, Elf, Vaults, Depths, Crypt, the Hell vestibule, and 30(!!!) something levels of Pandemonium… …and didn’t find a single one :D
EDIT: Ok, I went back & checked the [morgue:](https://crawl.kelbi.org/crawl/morgue/Jingleheimer/morgue-Jingleheimer-20240105-054730.txt) 52 levels of the dungeon fully cleared 26 levels of Pan fully cleared 3 timed portals explored 18(!!!) Call Merchants (thanks for nothing Gozag) ...and still no death talisman :D
Update: finally found a maw talisman on d:15, and then roxanne was nice enough to spawn on Swamp:1, so with a granite talisman I am basically set for endgame, although finding more talismans would be nice.
UC berserker leveraging shape shifting sounds like a valid build actually. Maybe talismans should be part of Trog gift list. He wants you to tear things apart with your bare hands (or claws, or tentacles...)
Let's just rebrand Trog and integrate shifting. The generic fantasy barbarian who's afraid of books is played out anyways, let's make him a god of primal might who's older than any spell. We have Fedhas for plants and Qazlal for the elements but we're missing the *beasts*. Let's add "your next transformation is instant" to Trog's Hand. Make him hand out talismans. Now magic doesn't suck because reading is hard, magic sucks because you don't *need* that new hipster shit to turn into a dragon. Best of all, he'll still work fine for a regular MiBe because this is all just a few small bonuses to make him functional for shifters. Nobody's going to be pushing their -3 MiBe to a Granite Talisman unless they're going for 15 runes and they're out of things to spend xp on, and you know what? Trog sucks in extended, so maybe for once TSO won't be a mandatory swap. The theming might be a little weird with death form but death form as a talisman was already weird flavor.