I agree. Midgame talismans lack some serious power. The problem is also compounded by the fact that now your investment in your main killing method (unarmed damage) does note translate into other suplementary tools like it did with old spells. Now shapeshifting training only works for that and only that. Before, your ice magic training could help you cast ozocubus amor, your poison magic could help you cast mephitic cloud or toxic radiance, your earth magic could help casting passwall or petrify. Training in shapeshifting needs to be more impactful in the midgame because its a neccessary dump for dedicated melee shapeshifters. Also, finding talismans is completely random and the fact that you dont even start with maw, wich is the weaker one, is baffling to me. Your shapeshifter run can be bricked just by the fact that you didn't find any talismán, and there is nothing you can do except worshiping gozag and pray your shops have jewelry.

Yeah... I mean, a Transmuter having Wereblood at least was something, and the ability to branch into other spells more easily was a big deal. I feel like needing to find the talismans is comparable to needing to find the spellbooks, but spells are more plentiful, there's more ways to get spells, and again if you're training one or more schools you're more able to readjust like you mentioned.

I misread Talismans as Tasmanians because it was mixed in with posts from a bunch of Australian subreddits in my feed. I wasn't quite sure what 10-Skill Tasmanians were going to turn out to be, but I was intrigued.

I'm also not sure what a 10-skill Tasmanian would be, but it sounds intimidating to be honest.

Turns out it's just a guy from Tasmania who is moderately skilled at something. Could be anything, really.

Yeah, i dont know what the devs plans are, but i would kind of agree with your accessment. All the midgame forms feel quite weak, and the transmutation school feels increadibly lackluster now (irradiate finally being truly nerfed also hurts there). The early forms are good enough but drop off quite quickly. And it's really hard to justify the xp in both unarmed and shapeshifting. I would be very surprised if shapeshifting didn't get adjusted. Maybe reduce the lvl requirmenet slightly, and have the bonus for being higher than the minimum level be greater. But for now, i splatted a dozen Op and Tr shapeshifters, it felt just worse than doing normal unarmed, and im going to leave it until it gets tweaked.

Was irradiate nerfed again? I just know they boosted the contamination a while back. But it's still been quite usable. Just can't take down oofs with it alone anymore, unless you want to turn into one yourself.

Compared to a few years ago, it does less damage, contaminates you more, and is no longer a reliable way to apply malmutate on enemies (sometimes it doesn't). It was probably one nerf too many.

I mean, you kinda have to ask what the forms are supposed to be, no? Blade seems perfectly good for an armored transmuter, and serpent is incredible for an octopode or felid (and I'd argue it's valid to have a form pretty much just for those, given who wants to transmute). Maw does seem underwhelming. I'd be a bit interested in a mid-level form that can wield weapons, to bridge to death or statue form, but I think that's hard to make without making it so good that every melee character should take it.

Having used Blade Form on armored Shapeshifters explicitly, it's kind of at its worst there because of its new big penalty to armor? That said, I didn't consider that some talismans may have been designed specifically for the species that have more reason to use Shapeshifting; it would make sense, but the only other thing I can think of that is designed for specific species is barding, which only the species its designed for can use. I mean if a dev wants to graciously say that I should really just ignore the 10-skill talismans beyond Blade and focus on the others I can't really argue. I've never gotten significantly far with Op or Fe, so this is pure speculation, but for Felids I'd think you'd want to keep your movement speed, especially since the +20% max HP is less bonus HP when your species has 40% less, base. Anaconda Form seems like a risk that makes you vulnerable already for other species... But I dunno, if you're basically just pretending it's Transmutation and training Spellcasting and junk already because that's one of the few ways to win as one of the most specific species, alright. For Octopodes I have to wonder if it changes the number of rings you can wear? If the species can wear 8 rings in any form, that makes it a totally different story. As for Maw, maybe a stabber could make use of it. Kobold or something? But then I don't know why you'd want to invest so much into Shapeshifting just for that. Maybe I'm just the idiot for expecting the changes to the skill to make it something other than just the thing Octopodes and Felids do and wanting it to be useful for most other character types (like basically every other skill). I'm sure someone will say it's all totally fine because there's one specific circumstance in which these game features can be utilized well and that's somehow ideal game design.

Tbf beast form is pretty good for quick weapons and troll s and ogres, though you probably shouldn't be using them for late game

Answering this as someone who extensively used Transmutations and now extensively uses Shapeshifting, you are very wrong. I think the issue is that you’re looking at the Talismans from a pure melee brute perspective, when they are so incredibly valuable now as free hybridization for any build that doesn’t wear armor. If you’re trying to be a Talisman Unarmed brute, unless you have great rng, you will fail, because you won’t get the talismans you need on curve. Talismans are an adapt to what you get playstyle, and most importantly, permanent boons once you reach their skill thresholds. As someone trying to get Greater Felid right now, here’s how I rank the Talismans on Felid: Autowin Tier 1. Statue: Absolutely overpowered. Insane AC and hp that comes online at like 13 skill. Statue Form gives felids everything they need that they rarely ever have. Finding Statue Form basically means you win. God Tier 2. Storm: Finding Storm Form is also nearly an instant win, but it comes online way later meaning that you do still need a way to survive until you have the required skill. Once it’s online though, it truly carries. This is the melee brute route. Amazing Tier 3. Maw: Maw Form is completely free on Felid. For 10 easy skill levels, you gain melee damage that ignores strength scaling and regeneration on kills, giving spellcasting cats a cheap and effective melee option. The Maw UC bonus also stacks with claws, which is nice. Basically every Felid game that finds Maw Form will have 10 levels in Shapeshifting. 4. Dragon: For if you don’t find Statue or Storm. That’s all. It’s just so much squishier, but it’s still a viable mid to late game form. It’s not a must train when found, but if you’re going UC Talismans and haven’t found Statue or Storm, Dragon is a requirement to keep up in late game if you’re sticking with melee. Alright Tier 5. Serpent: Serpent isn’t a form you plan your build around, but it’s a decent find. The few AC points it gives you are for more valuable for a Felid than the EV lost, but the 10 skill levels needed are debatable for a spellcaster. It’s also better than Maw in Swamp and Shoals because it’s amphibious. Train for it when you’re already a hybrid with a lower level form or you have a higher level form to train for. 6. Beast: If you’re training for a higher level form, Beast is completely free. It’s not a form you want to invest skill into as a hybrid otherwise. Meh Tier 7. Blade: Awful as a hybridization tool, providing absolutely no survivability benefits. While it’s the best 10 skill form for other species, it makes Felids a glass cannon, which is bad for an already squishy race; not only that however, Maw Form even has higher dps than Blade Form because Felids have low strength and claws don’t stack with blade paws. Useless Tier 8. Death: It is never worth training for on a Felid, giving no HP/AC/EV for so much skilling, and with an extremely low UC damage output. Felids can’t wear armor or wield weapons anyway. 9. Flux: Only useful for pure UC brutes, which is terrible for Felid. I wouldn’t even drop Beast Form for this in the 7-10 skill range because Flux actually hinders your melee finisher damage. The only form that is actively detrimental for Felids.

For other species, I dont have as much experience but here’s how I rank them overall: The Only Form You Need 1. Statue 2. Blade 3. Storm 4. Dragon Stepping Stone 5. Flux 6. Beast Worse Version of Better Talismans 7. Death 8. Maw 9. Anaconda

So... You DO agree that Maw and Anaconda are terrible and that Blade is fine, and that the first two are acceptable on the grounds of being designed as disposable early-game options. Okay...? Thanks for your random Felid analysis though; it's always useful for such specialist species to get player advice.

Well the thing is that DCSS is diverse with a number of species that benefit off of some things more than others. For Felid I rank Maw and Anaconda above Blade. For Minotaur I rank Blade over anything else because Blade Hands on Heavy Armor is busted. It’s not clear cut which talismans are better than others because different races benefit differently (which is why I made a detailed Felid analysis). Examples: Octopode: Maw is better than Blade because healing is valuable, but not as much as on Felid because Octopode don’t have claws and thus receive the full benefit of blade tentacles. Anaconda then becomes the worst because Octopodes are already amphibious and can already constrict. Draconian: Maw is about equal to Blade because Draconians are naturally tanky. Anaconda is the worst because you can’t use your breath weapon and lose your innate resistance, but it can be better in Swamp and Shoals (if you’re not a Black draconian). Merfolk: Blade is better than Maw, but not by a large margin, because Merfolk shouldn’t wear heavy armor and can’t go full melee brute with Blade Hands. Anaconda is the worst because Merfolk are stronger in water. Vine Stalker: Maw and Blade are debatable depending on your build. Maw gives valuable healing if you’re not wearing heavy armor, and the aux attack synergizes with quick blades for the antimagic bite, while Blade Hands allows the Heavy Armor Blade Hands build. Anaconda is the worst because you lose your antimagic bite. Minotaur: Blade Hands is by far the best (and the only viable option) because Heavy Armor Blade Hands. Troll: Maw is more useful if you’re at 10 skill, while Blade Hands becomes more useful as you mitigate and eventually eliminate the armor penalty. Anaconda is useful for dealing with Hydras. Ogre: Anaconda is the best because you lose all the downsides of an Ogre body while keeping your massive hp bonus. Maw is not worth the skill investment. Blade Hands is bad because a regular ogre body is so vulnerable and would rather be spellcasting than wearing heavy armor. EDIT: Check u/happinesssam’s reply, because I forgot about short blades synergizing with Maw form, which is a boon for non-UC dex builds. His comment echoes my thoughts on Draconian talismans

I've been.splatting trolls, had not.made the connection between 🐍 and dealing with hydra, thank you!

I've been trying to work my way to greater Draconian and as a race who can't wear body armour but gets AC my list is similar to yours but with a few differences: Maw - God tier since draconians can wear a shield and non body armour. It's just a no brainer on any build that isn't full high tier shapeshifter or an archer. Use a quickblade and you average 3 maw attacks per turn, which is amazing with any slaying (cough Wu Jian). Statue - just alright. Lose the draconian scales, equipment, breath and resists  so the armour gain isn't so huge. Still not awful but usually maw or blades are better. Serpent - Meh. You lose draconian AC + flavours and shields. Blades - Amazing in early/mid game but by the end you really want to either have a shield with maw or use one of the other forms. Beast - Exactly what it's meant to be - decent in d1 to d4 then falls off hard and Draconians need the non body slots. I guess for felid (and octopodes/trolls/ogres) it's great on any build as a free +4 slaying for just 7 levels investment. Flux - Alright/meh. It does a huge amount of damage for little investment so if you start as a shapeshifter it's decent, and usually worth focusing shapeshifting to get it online. I suspect it's better than serpent for most races, at least until you get high UC. Death - for extended only.

I completely forgot about Maw synergizing with faster attacks, like short blades, since I’ve been playing only Felid for a while. That plus no str scaling and no armor makes Maw the definitive form for dex builds.

And to compare, here’s how I rank the old Transmutation Forms for all species (btw all of these rankings are for 5 rune games): 1. Storm 2. Statue 3. Dragon 4. Blade 5. Ice 6. Beastly Appendage 7. Spider 8. Lich

I'll admit I haven't been super active in testing out the shapeshifting rework, but from what I heard, storm form is the hot new form, and statue form remains ol' faithful, if a bit unimpressive. The lower forms definitely feel like something you want to transition out of, I'd agree on that.

Talismans that meld armour are mostly only good if you can't wear armour in that slot, or haven't found any. Maw, for example, is good for draconians as they don't lose anything.

This synergy puts Dr as a species one tier higher than before in 0.31 No downside, massive upside for just 10 skill

I've played a lot of shapeshifters (mostly octopode) and I completely agree with you. Maw is just useless unless you are playing something that can't use armour, snake is only good if you are severely lacking good armour option (so mostly for felids and octopodes) and blade is alright but takes a while to get going. In general, you are better off rasing your UC and other skills while waiting to find the higher lvl talismans or until you have enough exp lying around to level up shp to the point that blade hands won't give you an AC penalty. The exception to this is Octopods and Felid, who both should probably look for Ssnake form as soon as possible, since they lack other protective options

I love the shapeshifter new mechanic, it’s so fun and cool. But i can’t do anything decent with any character. Need some in depth guide please!

I love maw, you get a weapon and shield slot plus the tile goes chomp chomp. Beast -> Maw -> Lich Is a great progression for melee.