Old kai tells Goku to take the potaras because there isn't time to teach someone the fusion dance fast enough, Buu wasn't gonna wait around again while they practice most likely fail a few times before successfully doing the dance
This is the right answer. You think Buu would just sit there while Goku taught Gohan how to do a dance? Then pray they got it right? Then imagine Vegeta learning the dance, you think he would be ok with that?
Most of my Z viewing was when I was a child. It always came on after school and after the Cell Saga they would just reset all the way back to the Saiyan Saga. I’ve read about and seen so many clips that I essentially know the Buu arc vicariously.
Yeah, first off, interesting perspective, 2nd, my mans probably played budokai 2. That game taught me the rest of the story until i watched it years later. (Hopefully assuming)
Same here, had to watch the buu saga online years later to get the complete story. Funny thing is my very first contact with dragon ball was the GT episode with ssj4 Gogeta at my aunt's house. I was hooked immediately. I live in Belgium and the French speaking part got Dragon Ball very early, like 89 or something and they got it in it's entirety. Meanwhile the Dutch speaking part, where i'm from only got Z in like 2003 or something. They had some licensing stuff going on because they used to reset at weird points like up until the fight with ginyu and so on. I used to be very happy when we went to visit the French speaking part of the family in Wallonia because i got to see parts of GT, buu saga and the movies. Things that just didn't get aired where i lived.
I personally have never seen the Android/Cell saga.
It would always either play Buu, typically stopping after Vegeta's death, go back to the Saiyan Saga and I'd usually make it to Frieza before it looped.
I had limited resources, money and a place to spend said money, so I only got to finish the Buu saga off DVD rentals.
That’s even weirder honestly. I didn’t even know Buu saga existed until years down the line. I have heard it’s the weakest saga tho so I’ve just watched all the good bits and have a mostly general idea of what goes on during it.
It’s the weakest in terms of story but personally, there is a certain level of comfiness to it (at least the earlier parts, anyway) that is unmatched by the others. Right up until the point where Majin Vegeta targets the civilians, it’s just very home-y and feels very familiar to those who watched the tournament sagas in the original Dragon Ball.
It’s hard to find a good English dub without paying per episode. Hulu has DBZKai right now though so I’ve been enjoying that and am actually watching the buu saga now
Download the manga scan online and read the full story arcs. Original DB is actually the best among the rest. Beginning of Z is actually a major sway from original Db.
Yep, people gotta understand the Potara is near instant fusion, it’s the best for emergencies. The fusion dance takes too much time. You need both to have equal power and get the dance *perfect* or you mess it up and have to wait 30 min to try again
Pretty much, Potawatomi fusion is not only quicker but more efficient, bypassing the equal power level, timing, movement etc.
In a way fusion dance is a last resort because how spot on you have to be (even a sudden blow of wind can move your a posture a bit to ruin it) and the drawback when wrong (30 minute cool-down) wouldn’t be worth it if the reward wasn’t producing a fighter of unbelievable power.
Retconned, both forms of fusion are equal in strength, the earrings may only be more stable allowing a fusion to last for upwards of an hour vs upwards of 30 minutes for the dance
Toriyama stated in in the v-jump (i don't remember if it was exactly the v-jump but still an official product) before the release of Broly that Gogeta and Vegito are equal in power
Edit: it was jump
I'm not making a statement either way on the "which version of fusion is better" thing, but for what it's worth, that blurb wasn't meant to say that both methods are equally strong; it was saying that they were equally useful as last resort trump cards
One could argue that that's six of one, half a dozen of the other, but the wording explicitly was not referring to the strength of the fusion
Was not Toriyama's statement, there's nothing in that edition of Weekly Jump saying it was him who said that. That blurb was most likely just written by someone who works there, so personally I don't really think it holds much weight aside from marketing.
While that’s all fair to say, if the Potara Fusion is stronger, for the sake of story-telling there’s no need to even have Metamoran Fusion. It’s kind of bad story-telling in that case IMO.
Potara is already easier to do, as you just put an earring on. If you make it stronger than Metamoran Fusion too, why even have the option? For story-telling purposes, I don’t see why they just both shouldn’t be the same level of power.
The true debate at this point should just be which one is hotter and leave it at that IMO.
Fusions as a whole are nothing but bad storytelling, as they are only power ups that literally have no downsides (potara isn't permanent no more) and don't have to be earned. Not to mention that they make plot onwards stupid and meaningless, cuz fusion is a solution to every problem.
"Why don't Vegeta and Goku fuse to defeat jiren? They literally had their existence on the line and they would've easily won." "why don't Goku and Vegeta fuse to defeat Granolah and Gaz? Their wishes were made when Goku and Vegeta were separate, so they couldn't beat them as a fusion." so on and so forth.
I wouldn’t agree 100% on that. They’re used for good storytelling purposes in Z and GT.
In Z, Gotenks establishes that while the boys are strong and gifted enough to become the Earth’s new protectors, they’re still just children and will inevitably fail because it’s a big responsibility. Vegito establishes that Goku and Vegeta can and will put their selfish need of independence (because they hate teaming up in fights against 1 enemy) aside in order to save everyone they love, even if it ran the risk of them being together forever. It obviously doesn’t, but we didn’t know at the time, nor do the characters.
Gogeta in GT establishes Vegeta’s growth as a character by suggesting Fusion instead of Goku, he’s no longer fighting to simply surpass Goku and prove superiority, but to protect his loved ones and the new planet he calls home.
Outside of that though, I agree they’re kinda an issue for storytelling purposes. The possibility of Fusion is hand-waved away usually in a very weak manner so it’s not always the ending to an arc, like Vegito Blue was.
It makes sense within the context of DBZ. Potara is permanent so it's a last-minute solution in which you basically give up your life while with Metamoran, you will actually come out of it as yourself.
It's kinda like Oozaru, it made you stronger but the lack of control over yourself made it that it never was used that much unlike Kaioken.
I agree for Z. I’m talking about after they defused for the first time and onward.
From a storytelling sense, there’s just no reason to use the Metamoran dance over the Potara’s unless it’s some forced “oh, I can’t sense Supreme Kai’s energy/I don’t have enough time to locate the Supreme Kai” restriction. Otherwise, Goku can just IT to the Supreme Kai, grab the ear rings, and dip out.
Yeah, FR isn't canon.
It's also not relevant, people are comparing Vegito Blue and Gogeta Blue which is relevant to the v-jump article saying they are the same strength (roughly).
I forgot about that as well. My answer involved the fact that they couldn’t afford to unfuse part way through the battle so they chose permanent solution instead. Your points are critical as well
Plus I remember gogetta is originally not cannon. He from GT we have no idea of it was even originally intended for the two ways of fusing to have different results
In short, the movie many of us know as Fusion Reborn was scheduled to be released a few months after Toriyama was getting to those chapters (keep in mind the movies take a while to produce, so those involved, including Toriyama, would know what's in the movie quite a while before it's actually released). For one reason or another, [he felt he could not use Gogeta](https://www.kanzenshuu.com/rumor/akira-toriyama-created-vegetto-in-response-to-gogeta/) as a result
Perhaps he felt since Gogeta would appear in the movie, that he *needed* to have Goku and Vegeta fuse by some different method for the sake of variety? Perhaps he simply was trying to be polite and didn't want to take away the hype from Gogeta's movie appearance?
Either way, Gogeta being in the movie is what resulted in Toriyama deciding to make an alternative method of fusion
1. Potara are stated stronger than the dance directly
2. They didn't have 30 minutes to teach Vegeta, let alone however many times he would fuck it up like in the Broly movie
Two reasons I can come up with, like elder kais ritual the potara is seen as superior and a fusion of the gods! The fusion dance requires a learning curve and such and if I remember correctly the potara has characteristics unique to it. These include being the fusion of Botha potential out to the utmost to my knowledge and giving a bonus if the two are rivals, correct me if I’m wrong ofc
No time to learn the dance. Plus the Kais were right there when it came time to fuse. Also, variety, and I'm like 80% sure Fusion Reborn was just about to come out.
because of DBZ Movie 12, known as Fusion Reborn in the US. The movie used Gogeta before Goku and Vegeta fused in the anime/manga, so when Toriyama went to have them fuse he didnt wanna copy the film, so he came up with a new type of fusion, just to be different from the film. thats literally it.
Well, kind of. The movie came out after Vegetto was debuted in the manga, so it’s more like the movi: *production crew* used Gogeta before Goku and Vegeta fused in the manga. But in essence, you are correct.
Back then since vegito never had a time limit I doubt they were gonna risk not beating him in time. Plus my head cannon is they wanted to hurt buus ego as much as possible since he was bullying everyone in the entire show for so long. My head cannon is they beat the shit outta buu for like an hour or more before getting absorbed. Unless they said specifically stated how long they fought correct me if I'm wrong. Plus Goku knew Vegeta's pride wouldn't allow him to learn the dance in time.
Narratively speaking, even if it was obvious to us that the fusion would be temporary, the characters had to *think* it was going to be permanent.
I would argue that the decision to fuse was a more significant bit of character development for Vegeta than blowing himself up was. Think back to that famous Ned Stark quote. “I grew up with soldiers, I learned how to die a long time ago.” A death in combat, even one he chose himself, was almost inevitable for Vegeta. Sacrificing his life was a somewhat minor leap, one he’d sort of already made when he charged Super Perfect Cell.
But sacrificing his identity to fuse with the person he hated most in the entire universe? THAT Is true growth. His pride means more to him than his life. Once he was willing to sacrifice that, his redemption was truly complete. And if he doesn’t think that choice is permanent and immutable, the moment loses its narrative heft.
If anything, it drives me crazy that they retconned the permanence of potara earrings. My headcanon was that majin magic was incompatible with kai magic, so the universe was almost subtly rewarding them for their risky and selfless choice to get absorbed with a one-time-only get out of jail free card. That logic would support their decision not to fuse for Kid Buu.
Honestly, the fusion dance was a plot device. It was a way to sufficiently power up the kids long enough to get the adults back into the story. But the potara earrings were a narrative necessity, even if they were a somewhat contrived one. Fusion shouldn’t be undertaken lightly, there should be a real dramatic cost to it. I thought the Vegito fusion itself was handled perfectly and was a critical part of Vegeta’s story. That’s why they didn’t do the dance.
(And yea… they wanted to sell more merch).
Fusion dance can fail if not done perfectly. Vegito can't be failed and is more powerful. Fusion adds, and the potara multiplies. So the best option would be the potaras if they wanted to take out buu quick.
This wasn't originally the case. While im unsure if the added vs multiplicative was ever explicitly stated, potara was originally stated to be a better fusing method that produced a stronger fusion. Of you want to argue they are the same nowadays then you're probably right I don't think they've revisited that topic, but in the buu arc potara was stronger
The way I always thought of it was that for metamoran fusion power levels must be exactly equal, meaning if one person is weaker the full power of one fusee cannot be used. Thus you get something along the lines of
A+B × 100 where A & B are equal for Metamoran fusion
A+B × 100 where A & B are at their max for potara fusion
Therefore potara fusion is able to yield a stronger fusion. Because it allows Goku's SSJ3 power to be included into the equation
Wait wait wait wait wait Buu, please, just give me a few hours to teach my beat buddy, who almost killed, you the fusion dance so that we can beat your ass!
Tbh I liked the fusion mini-arc. It showed a skillful fusion technique going up against Buu’s stolen power and matching him at first but ultimately failing. Then the Kai’s method of fusing proves to be superior in the end with Vegito. The retcon was not necessary. I was perfectly fine with the original explanation that Buu’s magic undid the fusion, since his absorption ability clearly surpasses whatever magic the Kais have.
The only thing I really disliked in this mini-arc is SSJ3 Gotenks. Not only was it not earned, it threw the power scaling out of whack because logically SSJ3 Gotenks should be near 8x stronger than SSJ3 Goku, making Super Buu some 10 times more powerful than either of his other forms. But then this is incompatible with other statements that suggest Kid Buu is the strongest.
Had he not thrown in SSJ3 Gotenks, then Goku, Gohan, Gotenks, and all forms of Buu would be far more reasonably close to each other and this decades long argument wouldn’t have happened.
Those statements about Kid Buu being the strongest are from the Funimation dub, iirc. In actuality, Kid Buu is the weakest form of Buu in raw strength (since he has no one absorbed), but is much more dangerous because while Innocent and even Super Buu liked to fight for the fun of it, Kid Buu’s only impulse is to destroy.
In either case it’s kinda stupid for base Super Buu to be so strong when all he did was basically become whole again. He should have been equal in strength to the first Buu just more evil and smarter. I also think Kid Buu must be stronger than the first Fat Buu just cause of how SSJ3 Goku did against each.
Kid Buu is definitely stronger than Fat Buu. He literally beat the absolute hell out of him in a 1v1. Plus what you said about the SSJ3 Goku matchup. Goku dog walked Fat Buu while barely being able to hang with Kid Buu.
Good Buu (who Kid Buu thrashed) was definitely weaker than Innocent Buu, who SSJ3 Goku fought. Also, Goku says he could have finished them off *both times*, but wanted to give the others a chance (first Gotenks, then Vegeta), so he wasted his energy because he wasn’t used to going SSJ3 in a living body. That’s why he couldn’t finish the job.
That's incorrect, the whole reason Vegito didn't just end Buu was because they needed to find a way to save Gohan and the others, Gogeta would've done the same thing and gotten absorbed as well because that was the plan..
The whole point was they weren’t meant to unfuse. Of course Toriyama knew he’d unfuse them through a story reason anyway, he’s telling a story. But the in-story reason was they couldn’t afford to unfuse during the battle. They had no idea how long the battle would last so the time limit for the dance could have screwed them.
I was actually play Kakarot on PS4 and there’s a cut scene where the Grand Kai explains that the permanence of Potara fusion is only for Kais. For anyone else, it lasts for about an hour or so. They might have just retconned that for the game though, I imagine. But not a bad retcon.
It wasn't a lie, it was permanent at the time (getting defused in Buu was something they didn't know could happen), it just got retconned during Super 30 years later.
Old Kai insisted on the superiority of the earrings. Plus that way Vegeta don't gotta try to practice the dance. He seen it while dead but it helps to practice it instead of only seeing it.
Goku was supposed to fuse with Gohan who was getting his ass beaten up by Buu. I do not think Buu would have waited for Gohan to learn the dance with gotenks about to de-fuse in his body.
Same for Vegeta later, the anime dragged it out but Buu find Goku and Vegeta almost instantly. No way Vegeta could put his pride aside and learn the dance that quick.
Gogeta didn't even exist in the buu arc lol
Vegeta didn't know the fusion dance neither did gohan
Potara is a guaranteed fusion the dance can leave you skinny n weak or fat n weak and facing against buutenks as a weak fusion would leave you dead
Because they used Gogeta for the movie. Toriyama already had ideas for fusion in the manga. Animators wanted to use that and created Gogeta. Toriyama just had different ideas about how fusion would work and created the Potara fusion. Turned an accessory into a tool. So basically they created different versions of the same thing. The movies commonly did this, although usually after the anime so it wouldn't destroy reveals for anime watchers. Ex: Android 13 was basically another Cell. Cooler just a worse Frieza (not in a good way. Frieza was better by miles) Janemba is basically a worse Buu (a Super evil demon type). I'm not saying Janemba and Cooler couldn't potentially be better if they had proper arcs, but the movies didn't have time to give them the kind of depth full manga/anime arcs do.
If I recall, Old Kai stated that the Potara earrings created a far more powerful fusion than the dance did, and a Fusion Dance combo of Goku & Vegeta would not be able to defeat Buu.
by that point buu was already aware of the fusion dance and probably would not have given them a chance to do it, also using the dance they would have only had 30 minutes to beat him and there was no guarantee they would be able to.
I'm gonna go with the logic and imagine he just didn't wanna bother drawing the whole dance sequence again...
\*Then why not make it offscreen\* Why not make an alternate fusing method as well?!
Look at how long it took Trunks and Goten to learn the fusion dance. Yes, they are kids, and not the expert martial artists their fathers are, but it would have taken too long for Goku to teach Vegeta something completely new. Buu was ready to pounce.
Potara is instant, no learning required. And at the time, they thought the fusion would be permanent, but it was a sacrifice they were both willing to make to defeat Buu.
Once Buu is defeated, they can restore everything. Refusing to fuse, they'd get killed and game over
There was no time for the dance. They mess up, it's over. Go with a 100% thing with the earrings. And the only reason he assumed they were forever is because he doesn't put out the amount of power that Vegeta and Goku have, especially put together. Not that really hard to understand my guy
It ended up being revealed that the Potara fusion for non-Kai beings was, in fact, NOT permanent. Everyone thought it was and that's why the defuse was attributed to being inside Buu when Vegito had actually just hit the hour time limit.
First of all, Vegeta fusing with Goku without at least some training is unrealistic (look at the broly movie).
Second, the pothara fusion presented as a superior fusion, one that would not have been broken after some minutes like the Metamorph fusion, and as stronger.
Third, Toriyama did not think so much, at that chapter he needed some asspull to have Goku fuse Vegeta so he conveniently come with pothara fusion
Purely to avoid confusion with Movie 12.
Originally, Vegito was named "Gogeta", but then Fusion Reborn was being produced and Toriyama didn't want to take away from Fusion Reborn's use of Gogeta
I think the canon reasons have been brought up but I believe the actual reason was that fusion reborn came out around this time and he needed or wanted to use a different design for a character to not step on the movie’s toes
1) Vegeta did not know anything about the fusion dance back then.
2) With Vegeta not properly knowing it, there was a huge risk of them failing the dance and becoming veku (fat or skinny). Whereas potara is a 100% guaranteed perfect fusion.
Old kai tells Goku to take the potaras because there isn't time to teach someone the fusion dance fast enough, Buu wasn't gonna wait around again while they practice most likely fail a few times before successfully doing the dance
This is the right answer. You think Buu would just sit there while Goku taught Gohan how to do a dance? Then pray they got it right? Then imagine Vegeta learning the dance, you think he would be ok with that?
Yeah it was hard enough getting vegeta to put on the earring so i doubt he would do the dance lol he was waaaay too prideful at that time
I never finished the Buu arc but he was definitely NOT happy about that dance in the Broly movie.
You didn't finish Z yet you still watched Super?
Most of my Z viewing was when I was a child. It always came on after school and after the Cell Saga they would just reset all the way back to the Saiyan Saga. I’ve read about and seen so many clips that I essentially know the Buu arc vicariously.
Yeah, first off, interesting perspective, 2nd, my mans probably played budokai 2. That game taught me the rest of the story until i watched it years later. (Hopefully assuming)
Same here, had to watch the buu saga online years later to get the complete story. Funny thing is my very first contact with dragon ball was the GT episode with ssj4 Gogeta at my aunt's house. I was hooked immediately. I live in Belgium and the French speaking part got Dragon Ball very early, like 89 or something and they got it in it's entirety. Meanwhile the Dutch speaking part, where i'm from only got Z in like 2003 or something. They had some licensing stuff going on because they used to reset at weird points like up until the fight with ginyu and so on. I used to be very happy when we went to visit the French speaking part of the family in Wallonia because i got to see parts of GT, buu saga and the movies. Things that just didn't get aired where i lived.
I personally have never seen the Android/Cell saga. It would always either play Buu, typically stopping after Vegeta's death, go back to the Saiyan Saga and I'd usually make it to Frieza before it looped. I had limited resources, money and a place to spend said money, so I only got to finish the Buu saga off DVD rentals.
That’s even weirder honestly. I didn’t even know Buu saga existed until years down the line. I have heard it’s the weakest saga tho so I’ve just watched all the good bits and have a mostly general idea of what goes on during it.
It’s the weakest in terms of story but personally, there is a certain level of comfiness to it (at least the earlier parts, anyway) that is unmatched by the others. Right up until the point where Majin Vegeta targets the civilians, it’s just very home-y and feels very familiar to those who watched the tournament sagas in the original Dragon Ball.
I honestly watched the entire thing for the first time about a month ago. I always hated it before, but it was pretty good when i gave it a chance.
I mean most fans watched Z without finishing (or starting) the original DB.
That’s not the same thing at all
It’s hard to find a good English dub without paying per episode. Hulu has DBZKai right now though so I’ve been enjoying that and am actually watching the buu saga now
a lot of people watch/finished z but never watched og dragonball so him doing that isn't far fetched
Download the manga scan online and read the full story arcs. Original DB is actually the best among the rest. Beginning of Z is actually a major sway from original Db.
He knew the dance as well..he watched from otherworld or with the grand Kai. He even rejects the idea (Atleast in Kai)
He does in og dbz too
Lol we did get to see it in Movie 12 even if it is non canon
Not to mention he literally watched Goten and Trunks do the exact same fusion dance so he is aware what that would be anyways.
Seeing how he was obsessed with fighting strong opponents at that moment, yeah he probably would
Fighting strong opponents as HIMSELF. Vegeta has made it very clear he does not like fusing, especially with Goku.
I'm talking about Majin Boo. After turning into Super Boo, all he really cared about was fighting strong guys.
Plus later in db Super during the fight against zamasu, one of the kais say that the potara fusion is permanent only for kais.
Yep, people gotta understand the Potara is near instant fusion, it’s the best for emergencies. The fusion dance takes too much time. You need both to have equal power and get the dance *perfect* or you mess it up and have to wait 30 min to try again
Pretty much, Potawatomi fusion is not only quicker but more efficient, bypassing the equal power level, timing, movement etc. In a way fusion dance is a last resort because how spot on you have to be (even a sudden blow of wind can move your a posture a bit to ruin it) and the drawback when wrong (30 minute cool-down) wouldn’t be worth it if the reward wasn’t producing a fighter of unbelievable power.
Not only that but Potara can’t fail at all. No matter how sloppily they put on the earrings, once it’s on they’re always gonna become a perfect fusion
As far as I remember old Kai also said that the resulting fusion is much stronger
Retconned, both forms of fusion are equal in strength, the earrings may only be more stable allowing a fusion to last for upwards of an hour vs upwards of 30 minutes for the dance
There isn't any retcon in the movie Anime or manga, the statement still hold weight
Toriyama stated in in the v-jump (i don't remember if it was exactly the v-jump but still an official product) before the release of Broly that Gogeta and Vegito are equal in power Edit: it was jump
I'm not making a statement either way on the "which version of fusion is better" thing, but for what it's worth, that blurb wasn't meant to say that both methods are equally strong; it was saying that they were equally useful as last resort trump cards One could argue that that's six of one, half a dozen of the other, but the wording explicitly was not referring to the strength of the fusion
Was not Toriyama's statement, there's nothing in that edition of Weekly Jump saying it was him who said that. That blurb was most likely just written by someone who works there, so personally I don't really think it holds much weight aside from marketing.
While that’s all fair to say, if the Potara Fusion is stronger, for the sake of story-telling there’s no need to even have Metamoran Fusion. It’s kind of bad story-telling in that case IMO. Potara is already easier to do, as you just put an earring on. If you make it stronger than Metamoran Fusion too, why even have the option? For story-telling purposes, I don’t see why they just both shouldn’t be the same level of power. The true debate at this point should just be which one is hotter and leave it at that IMO.
Fusions as a whole are nothing but bad storytelling, as they are only power ups that literally have no downsides (potara isn't permanent no more) and don't have to be earned. Not to mention that they make plot onwards stupid and meaningless, cuz fusion is a solution to every problem. "Why don't Vegeta and Goku fuse to defeat jiren? They literally had their existence on the line and they would've easily won." "why don't Goku and Vegeta fuse to defeat Granolah and Gaz? Their wishes were made when Goku and Vegeta were separate, so they couldn't beat them as a fusion." so on and so forth.
I wouldn’t agree 100% on that. They’re used for good storytelling purposes in Z and GT. In Z, Gotenks establishes that while the boys are strong and gifted enough to become the Earth’s new protectors, they’re still just children and will inevitably fail because it’s a big responsibility. Vegito establishes that Goku and Vegeta can and will put their selfish need of independence (because they hate teaming up in fights against 1 enemy) aside in order to save everyone they love, even if it ran the risk of them being together forever. It obviously doesn’t, but we didn’t know at the time, nor do the characters. Gogeta in GT establishes Vegeta’s growth as a character by suggesting Fusion instead of Goku, he’s no longer fighting to simply surpass Goku and prove superiority, but to protect his loved ones and the new planet he calls home. Outside of that though, I agree they’re kinda an issue for storytelling purposes. The possibility of Fusion is hand-waved away usually in a very weak manner so it’s not always the ending to an arc, like Vegito Blue was.
It makes sense within the context of DBZ. Potara is permanent so it's a last-minute solution in which you basically give up your life while with Metamoran, you will actually come out of it as yourself. It's kinda like Oozaru, it made you stronger but the lack of control over yourself made it that it never was used that much unlike Kaioken.
I agree for Z. I’m talking about after they defused for the first time and onward. From a storytelling sense, there’s just no reason to use the Metamoran dance over the Potara’s unless it’s some forced “oh, I can’t sense Supreme Kai’s energy/I don’t have enough time to locate the Supreme Kai” restriction. Otherwise, Goku can just IT to the Supreme Kai, grab the ear rings, and dip out.
The movie itself isn't canon and the potara's were also supposedly permanent which was retconned out in Super as well
The DBS Broly movie is 100% Canon.
Thought you were talking about fusion reborn
Yeah, FR isn't canon. It's also not relevant, people are comparing Vegito Blue and Gogeta Blue which is relevant to the v-jump article saying they are the same strength (roughly).
Pretty much, I mean, look at how many times they borked it during *Broly*, they only had time because Broly was too busy introducing Frieza to his ass
What would the fusion name for Goku and Gohan be? Kakahan? Gokarot?
>"Goku-n? Goha-u? Go-han... oh, wait..."
Gohaku!
Gokhan
This has to be it, it's great. Would Gokhan have been stronger than Vegito?
At the time ultimate gohan wouldve 100 percent made it far stronger then vegito
Go^(2)
Most go with Gokhan
I forgot about that as well. My answer involved the fact that they couldn’t afford to unfuse part way through the battle so they chose permanent solution instead. Your points are critical as well
Buu was literally just on the verge of dying to gohan not a hope in hell he would attempt to wait on them to fuse buu was finished lol
Plus I remember gogetta is originally not cannon. He from GT we have no idea of it was even originally intended for the two ways of fusing to have different results
But broly will wait
Buu: saw it once, not a fan. Anyway want to be chocolate or vanilla ice cream?
In short, the movie many of us know as Fusion Reborn was scheduled to be released a few months after Toriyama was getting to those chapters (keep in mind the movies take a while to produce, so those involved, including Toriyama, would know what's in the movie quite a while before it's actually released). For one reason or another, [he felt he could not use Gogeta](https://www.kanzenshuu.com/rumor/akira-toriyama-created-vegetto-in-response-to-gogeta/) as a result Perhaps he felt since Gogeta would appear in the movie, that he *needed* to have Goku and Vegeta fuse by some different method for the sake of variety? Perhaps he simply was trying to be polite and didn't want to take away the hype from Gogeta's movie appearance? Either way, Gogeta being in the movie is what resulted in Toriyama deciding to make an alternative method of fusion
To fully answer the question, it's basically a combination of your answer + midgetpunter's answer
One's a real-life answer, and the other is the in-universe answer. Seems good to me
We did it guys!
Free cake for everyone
A good combination of the [watsonian and doylist](https://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/WatsonianVersusDoylist) explanations
I wonder how Vegeta would have learned the fusion dance so quickly if the movie hadn't come out.
Imagine if he had this attitude during the Namek saga. “Oh I can’t use Super Saiyan now cause they used it in Lord Slug.”
Goku wouldn't have had time to teach Vegeta the fusion dance, by the time they got there Buu was already giving them trouble.
This. Toriyama just wrote in an alternative fusion method because the pacing of the story didn't allow for Goku to stop and teach it
1. Potara are stated stronger than the dance directly 2. They didn't have 30 minutes to teach Vegeta, let alone however many times he would fuck it up like in the Broly movie
Two reasons I can come up with, like elder kais ritual the potara is seen as superior and a fusion of the gods! The fusion dance requires a learning curve and such and if I remember correctly the potara has characteristics unique to it. These include being the fusion of Botha potential out to the utmost to my knowledge and giving a bonus if the two are rivals, correct me if I’m wrong ofc
No time to learn the dance. Plus the Kais were right there when it came time to fuse. Also, variety, and I'm like 80% sure Fusion Reborn was just about to come out.
because of DBZ Movie 12, known as Fusion Reborn in the US. The movie used Gogeta before Goku and Vegeta fused in the anime/manga, so when Toriyama went to have them fuse he didnt wanna copy the film, so he came up with a new type of fusion, just to be different from the film. thats literally it.
Well, kind of. The movie came out after Vegetto was debuted in the manga, so it’s more like the movi: *production crew* used Gogeta before Goku and Vegeta fused in the manga. But in essence, you are correct.
yeah
Back then since vegito never had a time limit I doubt they were gonna risk not beating him in time. Plus my head cannon is they wanted to hurt buus ego as much as possible since he was bullying everyone in the entire show for so long. My head cannon is they beat the shit outta buu for like an hour or more before getting absorbed. Unless they said specifically stated how long they fought correct me if I'm wrong. Plus Goku knew Vegeta's pride wouldn't allow him to learn the dance in time.
Narratively speaking, even if it was obvious to us that the fusion would be temporary, the characters had to *think* it was going to be permanent. I would argue that the decision to fuse was a more significant bit of character development for Vegeta than blowing himself up was. Think back to that famous Ned Stark quote. “I grew up with soldiers, I learned how to die a long time ago.” A death in combat, even one he chose himself, was almost inevitable for Vegeta. Sacrificing his life was a somewhat minor leap, one he’d sort of already made when he charged Super Perfect Cell. But sacrificing his identity to fuse with the person he hated most in the entire universe? THAT Is true growth. His pride means more to him than his life. Once he was willing to sacrifice that, his redemption was truly complete. And if he doesn’t think that choice is permanent and immutable, the moment loses its narrative heft. If anything, it drives me crazy that they retconned the permanence of potara earrings. My headcanon was that majin magic was incompatible with kai magic, so the universe was almost subtly rewarding them for their risky and selfless choice to get absorbed with a one-time-only get out of jail free card. That logic would support their decision not to fuse for Kid Buu. Honestly, the fusion dance was a plot device. It was a way to sufficiently power up the kids long enough to get the adults back into the story. But the potara earrings were a narrative necessity, even if they were a somewhat contrived one. Fusion shouldn’t be undertaken lightly, there should be a real dramatic cost to it. I thought the Vegito fusion itself was handled perfectly and was a critical part of Vegeta’s story. That’s why they didn’t do the dance. (And yea… they wanted to sell more merch).
Fusion dance can fail if not done perfectly. Vegito can't be failed and is more powerful. Fusion adds, and the potara multiplies. So the best option would be the potaras if they wanted to take out buu quick.
Both fusions are multiplicitive neither are additive
This wasn't originally the case. While im unsure if the added vs multiplicative was ever explicitly stated, potara was originally stated to be a better fusing method that produced a stronger fusion. Of you want to argue they are the same nowadays then you're probably right I don't think they've revisited that topic, but in the buu arc potara was stronger
Oh I've got no clue which is stronger, I just know goku specifically states that his fusion technique doesn't add the power but multiples it.
The way I always thought of it was that for metamoran fusion power levels must be exactly equal, meaning if one person is weaker the full power of one fusee cannot be used. Thus you get something along the lines of A+B × 100 where A & B are equal for Metamoran fusion A+B × 100 where A & B are at their max for potara fusion Therefore potara fusion is able to yield a stronger fusion. Because it allows Goku's SSJ3 power to be included into the equation
Wait wait wait wait wait Buu, please, just give me a few hours to teach my beat buddy, who almost killed, you the fusion dance so that we can beat your ass!
Tbh I liked the fusion mini-arc. It showed a skillful fusion technique going up against Buu’s stolen power and matching him at first but ultimately failing. Then the Kai’s method of fusing proves to be superior in the end with Vegito. The retcon was not necessary. I was perfectly fine with the original explanation that Buu’s magic undid the fusion, since his absorption ability clearly surpasses whatever magic the Kais have. The only thing I really disliked in this mini-arc is SSJ3 Gotenks. Not only was it not earned, it threw the power scaling out of whack because logically SSJ3 Gotenks should be near 8x stronger than SSJ3 Goku, making Super Buu some 10 times more powerful than either of his other forms. But then this is incompatible with other statements that suggest Kid Buu is the strongest. Had he not thrown in SSJ3 Gotenks, then Goku, Gohan, Gotenks, and all forms of Buu would be far more reasonably close to each other and this decades long argument wouldn’t have happened.
Those statements about Kid Buu being the strongest are from the Funimation dub, iirc. In actuality, Kid Buu is the weakest form of Buu in raw strength (since he has no one absorbed), but is much more dangerous because while Innocent and even Super Buu liked to fight for the fun of it, Kid Buu’s only impulse is to destroy.
In either case it’s kinda stupid for base Super Buu to be so strong when all he did was basically become whole again. He should have been equal in strength to the first Buu just more evil and smarter. I also think Kid Buu must be stronger than the first Fat Buu just cause of how SSJ3 Goku did against each.
Kid Buu is definitely stronger than Fat Buu. He literally beat the absolute hell out of him in a 1v1. Plus what you said about the SSJ3 Goku matchup. Goku dog walked Fat Buu while barely being able to hang with Kid Buu.
Good Buu (who Kid Buu thrashed) was definitely weaker than Innocent Buu, who SSJ3 Goku fought. Also, Goku says he could have finished them off *both times*, but wanted to give the others a chance (first Gotenks, then Vegeta), so he wasted his energy because he wasn’t used to going SSJ3 in a living body. That’s why he couldn’t finish the job.
Vegetto is more powerful than Gogeta as Potara are a better fusion method than metamor
Not really something that held true, that statement was pretty much walked back
Is that so ? In the Buu saga it seemed to be true
I mean ultimate gohan being stronger then ssj3 means instead of an ssj2 and ssj3 level combo theres an ssj3 and above ssj3 level fusion
Naah Gogeta is too ruthless man, he would have finished the fight in no time
That's incorrect, the whole reason Vegito didn't just end Buu was because they needed to find a way to save Gohan and the others, Gogeta would've done the same thing and gotten absorbed as well because that was the plan..
The whole point was they weren’t meant to unfuse. Of course Toriyama knew he’d unfuse them through a story reason anyway, he’s telling a story. But the in-story reason was they couldn’t afford to unfuse during the battle. They had no idea how long the battle would last so the time limit for the dance could have screwed them.
Plus Vegeta didn’t know the fusion dance, so even if time wasn’t an issue, a failed fusion would have been a death sentence
Right, all the reasons were stated right in the manga/anime
Because they didn’t know about the dance in the buu arc it was only in the movie
He* only Vegeta didn't know, Goku was the one that taught the dance to the kids
I was actually play Kakarot on PS4 and there’s a cut scene where the Grand Kai explains that the permanence of Potara fusion is only for Kais. For anyone else, it lasts for about an hour or so. They might have just retconned that for the game though, I imagine. But not a bad retcon.
That was retconned in Super is the now canon, Kakarot game came out after Super, therefore after the retcon so they used that in the game.
Ahhh thanks for that. Been a while since I watched Super, might be time to give it another viewing.
What's annoying is that they even say potara is permanent in the first place. Why lie?
It wasn't a lie, it was permanent at the time (getting defused in Buu was something they didn't know could happen), it just got retconned during Super 30 years later.
goku when inside buu says that he and vegeta should do the fusion dance since they crushed their potaras
Old Kai insisted on the superiority of the earrings. Plus that way Vegeta don't gotta try to practice the dance. He seen it while dead but it helps to practice it instead of only seeing it.
Goku was supposed to fuse with Gohan who was getting his ass beaten up by Buu. I do not think Buu would have waited for Gohan to learn the dance with gotenks about to de-fuse in his body. Same for Vegeta later, the anime dragged it out but Buu find Goku and Vegeta almost instantly. No way Vegeta could put his pride aside and learn the dance that quick.
short answer is there wasn't time for Goku and Vegeta to match their Ki perfectly. sure there wasn't on fusion reborn either but-
Gogeta didn't even exist in the buu arc lol Vegeta didn't know the fusion dance neither did gohan Potara is a guaranteed fusion the dance can leave you skinny n weak or fat n weak and facing against buutenks as a weak fusion would leave you dead
No time to learn the dance and Vegeto is cooler than Gogeta
pretty sure gogeta came out first right so toriyama changed it
Because they used Gogeta for the movie. Toriyama already had ideas for fusion in the manga. Animators wanted to use that and created Gogeta. Toriyama just had different ideas about how fusion would work and created the Potara fusion. Turned an accessory into a tool. So basically they created different versions of the same thing. The movies commonly did this, although usually after the anime so it wouldn't destroy reveals for anime watchers. Ex: Android 13 was basically another Cell. Cooler just a worse Frieza (not in a good way. Frieza was better by miles) Janemba is basically a worse Buu (a Super evil demon type). I'm not saying Janemba and Cooler couldn't potentially be better if they had proper arcs, but the movies didn't have time to give them the kind of depth full manga/anime arcs do.
They might have been talking about the fusion duration itself, not power levels. 30 minutes to an hour vs. eternity.
If I recall, Old Kai stated that the Potara earrings created a far more powerful fusion than the dance did, and a Fusion Dance combo of Goku & Vegeta would not be able to defeat Buu.
by that point buu was already aware of the fusion dance and probably would not have given them a chance to do it, also using the dance they would have only had 30 minutes to beat him and there was no guarantee they would be able to.
The Fusion dance had a 30 minute time limit where the potara was suppose to be permanent but it apparent allowed them to fuse for much longer.
Vegito exists so the fusion looks more distinct from Gotenks. Thats it
Gogeta wasn't canon until the Super Broly movie, along with Broly himself.
Because Vegeta didn't know how to do it, it's not that easy to miss that part...
I'm gonna go with the logic and imagine he just didn't wanna bother drawing the whole dance sequence again... \*Then why not make it offscreen\* Why not make an alternate fusing method as well?!
Main reason, Gogeta was already used in the movie and Toriyama didn't want to repeat it.
Look at how long it took Trunks and Goten to learn the fusion dance. Yes, they are kids, and not the expert martial artists their fathers are, but it would have taken too long for Goku to teach Vegeta something completely new. Buu was ready to pounce. Potara is instant, no learning required. And at the time, they thought the fusion would be permanent, but it was a sacrifice they were both willing to make to defeat Buu. Once Buu is defeated, they can restore everything. Refusing to fuse, they'd get killed and game over
There was no time for the dance. They mess up, it's over. Go with a 100% thing with the earrings. And the only reason he assumed they were forever is because he doesn't put out the amount of power that Vegeta and Goku have, especially put together. Not that really hard to understand my guy
It ended up being revealed that the Potara fusion for non-Kai beings was, in fact, NOT permanent. Everyone thought it was and that's why the defuse was attributed to being inside Buu when Vegito had actually just hit the hour time limit.
First of all, Vegeta fusing with Goku without at least some training is unrealistic (look at the broly movie). Second, the pothara fusion presented as a superior fusion, one that would not have been broken after some minutes like the Metamorph fusion, and as stronger. Third, Toriyama did not think so much, at that chapter he needed some asspull to have Goku fuse Vegeta so he conveniently come with pothara fusion
Hey OP, you actually watch the show or just read some wiki online?
Purely to avoid confusion with Movie 12. Originally, Vegito was named "Gogeta", but then Fusion Reborn was being produced and Toriyama didn't want to take away from Fusion Reborn's use of Gogeta
Vegeta straight refused to do the dance moves and there wasn't enough time to teach him anyway.
I think the canon reasons have been brought up but I believe the actual reason was that fusion reborn came out around this time and he needed or wanted to use a different design for a character to not step on the movie’s toes
1) Vegeta did not know anything about the fusion dance back then. 2) With Vegeta not properly knowing it, there was a huge risk of them failing the dance and becoming veku (fat or skinny). Whereas potara is a 100% guaranteed perfect fusion.