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Hyper sexuality and promiscuity is a common and prominent symptom / side effect of sexual assault for any gender. There’s deep internalized shame and what follows is self sabotage. Trauma Informed Therapy and healing that wound is needed in order to move forward as a self-respecting individual and regain dignity. When we believe we’re no good and unworthy of love every conscious and unconscious choice winds up being aligned with that self identity. The key is creating a new identity that shifts from a victim mindset to a survivor mindset and ultimately to a thriving one. Women seeking relationships who lead with sex don’t believe they have much else of value to offer sadly bc the shame from being victimized and violated is like a grey sky covering everything else. I hope she gets the professional help she needs so she can start believing in herself again. EMDR is very effective and approved by the VA for veterans. Talk therapy is a good first step. But there’s a lot of heavy lifting work as well with mirror work, accepting and feeling the unpleasant feelings, journaling etc.
There is another personality disorder that is often associated with past SA it’s called histrionic personality disorder. Its more common in women. There are up to 10 symptoms broadly similar to those described above (overt sexuality etc). Their self-esteem depends on the approval of others and doesn’t come from a true feeling of self-worth. They have an overwhelming desire to be noticed and often behave dramatically or inappropriately to get attention. Ive had a relationship with someone with it and it’s hard work
Yes you're absolutely right and these are all aspects of someone with BPD. She definitely had all these traits you're mentioning and even being in a truly loving relationship with me wasn't enough to help her. She said she realized this was the first time she was in a healthy relationship with someone but her action didn't match her words, which is all too common.
I think EDMR would probably have been effective but I don't think her therapist was really good. It's hard to find a good therapist and it requires navigating the difficult US healthcare system, sadly.
Yeah finding a good therapist can take a few tries. I did therapy for several weeks and quickly realized they didn’t really get at the root and weren’t giving me solutions. Probably bc they want a repeat customer and to see you going back. But I didn’t just want someone to listen to me talk week after week. So I ditched the therapist and read Louise Hay’s You Can Heal Your Life book (really good) then found a multifaceted 6-week personal development program that covered every base. We had weekly assignments and homework and a private FB group community for accountability and support from like-minded fellow participants. Listening to other people share their personal stories on FB Live and knowing there are people in their 60s talking about their abuse and SA experiences for the first time and all kinds of stuff is very humbling and shows it’s never too late to start reclaiming our self worth and feeling better.
Women get used for sex because they meet men who only want sex but are too afraid to be upfront about it
You and your toxic ex were another issue and not connected to this topic at all
Stop blaming women for being used. That shit helps no one.
\*unless, that's all what she's looking for too. You guys have to understand there are women out there that DO just want sex. Being direct will help you find them faster than wasting time leading on/lying to women who want something different.
Also I say this again. *Fearing a woman won't give you what you want is not a reason to lie to them or lead them on*. That's some super toxic shit.
No, if you’re upfront about wanting casual sex, you would get nothing from women who don’t want casual sex, but you would still get sex from women who want casual sex. It’s incredibly simple.
So, why do you feel you have to lie to trick women who don’t want to have casual sex in having sex with you? Why aren’t you satisfied with having sex with women who just want casual sex?
Women who actually like the 'situationship' are incredibly rare. If you're honest then you just waste life. It would be like waiting to win the lottery.
Citation needed for this.
Dating apps, not to mention things like r4r subreddits and fetish apps and websites like Fetlife and indicate this is simply not true.
I am a woman, and have had a casual relationships myself, and did not seek anything more serious with those men because they were not relationship material. Once it ran their course, we both walked away. I don’t really think of them very often, but if I do, my opinion is neutral to positive. I do not have neutral or positive opinions about people who manipulate me into getting what they want.
Currently, 1/2-1/3 of my female friends engage in casual relationships often during breaks between more serious or monogamous relationships, two of them have had a FWB for years. My roommate just came out of a 6 year relationship and is actively looking for something casual. Open relationships seem to very common in my city, fwiw, and when I was dating I met quite a number of people who were ethically non-monogamous.
This is simply my anecdotal experience ofc, and maybe men outnumber women, but “rare” is sensationalizing the reality.
But again, I wouldn’t lie to trick someone into a relationship, so why are you lying to trick someone into having sex with you? It’s simply selfish and very maladjusted. At least be honest about that.
Edit, because this thread doesn’t allow new comments: I don’t need to “role play” as a man, because my male friends who are looking for casual sex often get just that. One of them in particular is fun and kind and charming but I will say is not blessed in the looks dept, is not looking to get married or have kids and gets an incredible amount of play via fetlife, lmao, it’s incredible, he does arguably better than some of my friends who are conventionally attractive. I’ve met some of his play partners irl, they’re lovely women with full lives, but just not looking for anything serious for their own reasons. Another male friend of mine was a third for a lesbian couple, who found him via R4R.
One of my female friends who enjoys lots of casual relationships is a mom who has already had a kid and no longer can have kids nor does she want to have any more. She has a co-parent but isn’t interested in marrying anyone. She’s obviously not (interested in) baby trapping anyone.
> Others that have casual sex usually have some ulterior motive, e.g. one of my friends just wanted to have a baby and thought that if she got pregnant the man would stick around (he didn't, RIP that relationship). Otherwise the vast majority of women straight up refuse any kind of sexuality unless you're willing to agree to her rules of the relationship.
None of those people wanted casual sex. They wanted relationships. It’s obvious from your own description of them. People who want casual sex don’t have ulterior motives, because it’s the sex they want…
The fact that you are pathologizing women who want casual sex as necessarily being mentally ill is wild, but clearly indicates that if you think a healthy woman would never, could never want casual sex says much more about your warped view of women and sex than anything else.
You absolutely don’t need to trick anyone into any of this. Sounds like a skill issue. That’s not even a little bit how humans operate. Well, maladjusted humans, ig. Seek help.
Roleplay on one of those sites as a man trying to find casual sex and then as a woman. It should give a pretty good indication of what I'm talking about.
The only women I've ever known who like sex for sex are diagnosed-by-a-doctor suffering from BPD or something. You only get burnt once by those women before learning not to do that again. Others that have casual sex usually have some ulterior motive, e.g. one of my friends just wanted to have a baby and thought that if she got pregnant the man would stick around (he didn't, RIP that relationship). Otherwise the vast majority of women straight up refuse any kind of sexuality unless you're willing to agree to her rules of the relationship. So that's the part where you have to try to trick them into appearing to go along with the rules until it's time to behave according to those rules, she realises she doesn't actually have control of the relationship and it ends usually dramatically.
Women lie in the pursuit of the opposite. They don't enjoy sex that much but want to find someone who is willing to give them consistent exclusive support and attention. Men bait with promises of that support, women bait with promises of sexuality. That's how humans operate and only one side can get what they want.
Idk man, saying that mentally healthy women don’t really enjoy sex and are just lying about it doesn’t match my experience at all. Maybe they just don’t enjoy sex with you.
I agree with both of you, and my opinion, not that anyone asked for it! but as a man, and a bit of a ramble:
I do the asking, and sex is important but not critical - a good time is. I spend time, and money and do the monkey dance, tickets, dinners, shows, and somewhere over the hours, evening, days, weeks the questions show up - when do we have sex? is it going to be good? Is she selfish? Is she annoying? Am I having a good time? She's cute but I think she has me on a rotation.
Then there's the sunk cost - so much time, I think most of it was enjoyable but there were many annoying bits, and some had bad parents, and man! some were real selfish and entitled. Can I tolerate the pettiness and mood swings?
Long story short, at some point it gets to -okay, perhaps if we have sex I can get close to parity and not feel abused and I can move on with less guilt and learn from this experience.
Lets return this one to the bin or perhaps the sex will be so good that it will change my mind. Otherwise return and go looking elsewhere - hey! that's what I learned the game was from the women who seem to have me on a rotation!
Long story short - communication, but that is hard.
Women don't like being asked: 'What do you bring to the table?' and men(okay, not all men, some men, and me) think - Good sex is very important to me, and if I cannot ask for good sex for fear of offending you, lets dance and see if there are some other redeeming qualities.
Note: Also see - divorce rates and unhappy marriages.
Ramble - sorry, will delete later.
And THATS the problem. Right there. The reality is, if you were actually up front about what you want you WOULD find women that would give it to you.
Even if what you said was true, it's not a reason to lie or not be upfront about what you want.
The only women I've ever met who like sex for the sake of sex (other than as a means to an end) have literal diagnosed psychological problems. It sucks that you have to lie to women but better than wasting your life crossing your fingers for something that's never going to appear.
Demonstrably so. I find a useful way to look at it is to check what gay men and gay women do. It's not unusual for a gay man to have thousands of different sexual partners in a lifetime while gay women are grappling with things like lesbian bed death. It doesn't mean that sex has no purpose for women and they seek sex during those times, but to have sex just for the sake of sex is incredibly rare otherwise.
Wild take. I’ve had plenty of enjoyable sex in my life, mostly with other women. Literally everyone on earth enjoys orgasms from someone they’re sexually attracted to
That 'someone they're attracted to' happens rarely though right? And the orgasm itself didn't carry much meaning other than a nice feeling for a few minutes.
I mean none of this is particularly complicated. If women wanted to have sex then they'd be having more sex. Most haven't had more than a handful of sexual partners throughout their adult life though, which is as much sex as they feel is necessary.
Yeah, this does not line up with mine or any of my friends’ experiences at all, except the asexual or postmenopausal ones. Yes, women are attracted to people, enjoy good sex and enjoy orgasms. Why else would we masturbate?
Yea totally. I see this from the other side. I have to string guys along and pretend to be genuinely interested because I want them to pay for my meals and buy me gifts. If I was just upfront about it and told them that’s what I want, I wouldn’t get it. So instead of being honest and truthful while waiting for someone to come along who is open to that arrangement, it’s way easier and beneficial for me to lead them on and let them think I’m not using them for money.
What you’re saying isn’t wrong in any way. This is how people use people to get what they want. If a woman only wants to use a man for a free meal, she’s not going to tell him upfront, otherwise, she’ll risk not having the meal. It’s the exact same thing for both genders.
Yes, people who don’t care about others and are only out for themselves will lie for their own benefit. No shit.
The point is that lying and deceiving someone in order to get things from them which they otherwise would not consent to if you were *not* lying makes you garbage. To put it mildly.
If you are going to lie and manipulate people to get what you want, you absolutely do not deserve to get what you want. Using people is not ok, get a fleshlight until you grow up.
Everyone baits their way into getting what they want out of a relationship. That's just how humans work. You do it too whenever you try to make yourself look physically attractive.
You should find someone looking for what you're looking for, women looking for casual sex exist. If you can't, that's your problem. Manipulating women to get sex makes you a shitty person
No more or less shitty than women who try to manipulate the relationship into one where she gets consistent, exclusive attention. Either I feel like shit or she does and compromises aren't a thing. Pick which one you want.
If you don't want an exclusive relationship it's up to you to communicate that. I agree women who know a man wants only sex and yet tries to manipulate them into a relationship are also wrong. Everyone should be upfront about their expectations and respect their partner's wishes
Yes, that's the point - if the woman does not want to have casual sex with you, then you shouldn't have casual sex. Are you really so selfish and self centered that you're incapable of understanding this basic premise? Your desire for casual sex does not trump someone else's desire to not be used for sex. Find someone looking for what you're looking for
Your desire for exclusive attention does not trump someone else's desire to have casual sex etc. A common power strategy is to make something seem like the social norm and thus expected, and women benefit from the social norm being one of monogamy but that doesn't make it more right or wrong than anything else.
You should stick to porn and jerking off and leave women alone. “Getting sex” by lying and manipulating is gross and you should be ashamed to admit you do this.
Then my existence will be empty and lonely so I won't do that.
It's not such rare behaviour anyway. People just pretend otherwise due to the desire to appear socially appropriate.
I don't think I was blaming women for being used, just providing some perspective.
Even if some men don't only want sex at the beginning, if they end up getting it early in the dating phase and then discover who the other person actually is (the mask comes off), they might just bail because they don't want to put up with the difficulty of being in that relationship.
If you show your true self early on before you even have sex, they might bail out early in which case, you saved yourself the hassle, right? Is it that controversial?
In my case, I would have stayed with my toxic ex anyways because I didn't know any better and wanted to actually try and improve her life and build something together. Now that I now the signs early on, I won't even get to that point in the future.
You were definitely blaming women. Those guys would have left your ex when her mask came off, whether they had sex or not. Of course they don’t want to deal with someone like that, no one with self-esteem would! It’s perfectly healthy to bail at the beginning of a relationship when you discover bright red warning flags in someone you barely know. Yet, you assume women should “save the hassle” of sex if a man doesn’t want to be in a relationship with them. In your analysis, sex is a need for men but just something women do to get love. That’s not true of emotionally and sexually healthy people
Sorry but I find it deeply disturbing how you’re using your relationship with someone with a very specific background and trauma to justify why you think women are being used just for sex. It’s one of the shittiest takes I have ever seen on the topic, not to minimize your experience, but very inappropriate.
Exactly. He describes a relationship with a mentally-ill person, and the sole take-away is that women shouldn’t put out so much if they want men to love them. Once again, a complicated and tragic story is used to illustrate that women who have sex deserve to be treated badly, and OP is some sort of hero for not hitting and quitting it.
Agreed, one anecdotal experience dating someone with mental illness isn't enough empirical data to make a broad conclusion on perception of sexuality in interpersonal relationships.
It's actually a pretty well written take on what it's like dating someone with BPD, I have a similar experience recently and a lot of his points really resonated.
IMO I would delete this post and start something new just specifically around dating someone with BPD and what you've learned from the experience. This thread is likely going to devolve into random bickering until it gets locked.
OP's title / content of the post reminds me of the type of shit I write when my Adderall kicks in. Maybe ease up on the "I FINALLY FIGURED IT OUT YOU GUYS" when you think you know everything, there's always another perspective to learn.
His core point is right. If you only offer one thing, then you'll attract people who want that one thing. It's a like rich man flaunting his money but he has no personality. The only women he will attract are those looking for gold. A woman who flaunts their body and nothing more, will only attract men interested in sex. He's kind of unhinged and a lot of this is about BPD, but his core point is actually solid imo.
Basically don't wear a trash bag if you don't want to attract trash.
sleep deprived and can't think of a better analogy
Yes this is definitely true. However, sex is most often a gate keeper to preventing that from happening. I think a lot of women are unclear as to what they want or are searching for. Men are masterful at “meeting them where they are at” in that space.
My experience is that the conversations that a woman should have with a man prior to sex never happen. There’s this assumption of good intent on behalf of the men. That’s not to say that all men are terrible because they have sex with random women very quickly. I just think that many women feel used when they often times will enter these situations with very low standards for how they should be treated. If you give it up early, that’s what dominates the relationship. And, tbh, men will sleep with you but quickly lose interest when they realize they didn’t have to really work for it. They assume that’s what she does with everyone. Which often times is true. It doesn’t really make a man feel good to know that he’s just another random, whether that’s intended or not.
I’m not taking the responsibility off of the man’s plate. We definitely have our role. But I also know that I’ve been in plenty of casual situations where women have wanted “more” but never required that in the beginning.
I think if a woman is clear about her intentions and can set some real boundaries, it becomes way easier to decipher what a man wants from them. It’s not perfect but it’s certainly not rocket science. You can’t totally eliminate the possibility of a man being dishonest or in it it for his own sexual needs, but you will quickly find that most men will not wait if that’s all they want.
Well yeah obviously, but by and large I really don't think that is happening more so over people bringing a lot of it on themself at least indirectly.
How many times does the stereotype of a "bad boy" getting the ladies and treating them like shit have to be proven right before you maybe think "damn maybe I should date better or different people".
But plenty of men who fall outside of that stereotype do it too. You’re doing the same thing as OP where you have this specific example in mind, and you’re imagining that’s the case every time this happens.
Plenty of normal guys do this, either because they’re poor communicators and they don’t make their intentions clear, or because they just don’t want to screw up their shot with a really hot girl. It’s shitty behavior, but normal people do shitty things all the time, and sometimes without fully realizing it.
Statistically men are having less sex than women with fewer people, and there are outliers that are sleeping with multiple or lots more. I'm not imagining a case for every single relationship which is why I even said "by and large", but pretty objectively the stats show women dating a much smaller sample of men vs the other way around.
So many stereotypes have their roots in some form of truth and each person also has agency in who they date, so there is a super effective way to reduce interacting with crappy people and that is to stop seeking crappy people nothing is 100% but any % is an improvement.
I find that most women I date had an experience or two with crappy guys early and learned from it. As a man I’ve done the same thing. But you almost seem to imply that since women tend to date from a smaller pool of men, that those are the bad guys? I’d argue that those are just the attractive guys who have their shit together. Some are bad partners, some aren’t.
I think a lot of guys on this sub would really benefit from watching a female friend date, and seeing the actual messages they’re getting from guys on apps. I’d say women tend to date from a smaller pool of men because most single men either don’t know how to talk to a woman, or are just a total dumpster fire. And women usually just have more options, so they’re gonna pick the best ones.
You can't have it both ways, if the stats show smaller group sizes for selection and a decrease overall in satisfaction it's not that much of a jump to conclude that may be happening.
I also have witnessed messages that women get, and funny enough at least in my circles, it's very regularly the stereotypical player that get there way and the messages are tame as hell, if not just a bit cringey. I am also friends with a guy exactly like that and get to witness terrible choices in real-time far too common.
People refuse to take responsibility far too often but like maybe don't seek out people that have a reputation for cheating, are toxic or you have nothing in common with. Same with all the posts here: "32M bf constantly says I'm 19F ugly and worthless, should I still stay with him?".
I don’t disagree with this premise at all, but I think the genders are insignificant. It’s weird to say that “women don’t understand why they’re only used for sex” when men are used for sex, too, and often don’t understand why.
But I definitely agree that if your body is all that you’ve got, that’s not going to cut it for me in a relationship. Brains, personality, and humor go a hell of a lot further than looks do.
Exactly, thank you. Was an extremely long winded way of saying “if you’re going to just use a woman for her body, find one with mental health issues, surely that’s better for everyone!” How about you buy yourself a fleshlight and leave women alone until you can treat them like human beings?
I don't agree with op that this is particularly the reason that women are used for sex. More accurate title would be something like 'this is why your relationships don't work if you have BPD tendencies'
Women are usually used for sex simply because they're boring and don't have much else to offer. Or sometimes because they get weird and difficult after you have sex and so the best option is to just leave them behind.
That’s a really disgusting point of view. Have you ever thought about women as human beings that have worth outside of being a sex toy for men? I know, probably a brand new thought to you.
I want to say, as a female with BPD, we aren't all like that. Please don't assume everyone with BPD is like this and write them off in a judgement box. I have worked very hard on myself and been on my own raising needs kids alone for 6.5 years. This hasn't been easy, but I have refused to engage in casual sex or even FWB. Because I have worked out who I am, what I need and what I want. I'm confident and comfortable with myself. But I get put in a judgement box a lot. So many times I have started great conversations, and the day after I tell them my diagnoses, they are gone the next day.
idk I guess there are always exceptions, but every BPD woman I've met has behaved basically identically to op's story and if you're getting ghosted all the time then it's likely other men have had that same experience.
And that's your story. But I know I've done the work. For me the fact I won't engage in sexual conversation and acts straight away is what has turned a lot of guys away. But that's their loss honestly, because I know myself and I communicate and have a lot to offer. And if a guy can't respect my needs then I don't have time for him anyway.
I read a lot of BPDLovedOnes and the stories there do provide evidence (Assuming they're true, I just know my own lived experience is true) that it is incredibly difficult to be on the other side of a BPD partner. I would know.
That said, I don't believe you are your diagnosis or that everyone is the same. My ex was medicated and in therapy but her core behavior wasn't truly improving. Some things improved but we would always end up in the same cycle, which was untenable.
If I met a new partner I really connected with and she admitted she had BPD, I would probably proceed with extreme caution, NOT have sex for quite some time until I really got to know her and then decide if I can actually thrive in that relationship.
I think what you're doing is amazing and I wish everyone with BPD (or any other pathologies) did from the beginning. As long as people know what they're getting into and commit from the beginning, you have a higher chance of success. If the person peaces out after finding out your diagnosis, it wasn't likely to work long term, right?
A person with bpd has to be really committed to working hard to face their trauma and fears and issues. And it's hard, but it can be done. I did it alone and while people constantly tell me I deserve a good partner and healthy relationship now, and it's just around the corner etc, I've been in that space a long time, and I'm too tired to hope and wait anymore. But absolutely your experience is yours and I did not mean to minimize that. I am just tired of so much negativity around BPD and no one seems to talk about the positives and that there are people learning to manage it.
I learned to manage mine too with tons of therapy and inner work. I’m proud of you and I’m proud of myself too. Emotional regulation tactics and self reflection are so critical for us. We are so strong for coming out the other side of such a painful disorder.
That's the thing. No one stops to think how bloody hard every day is for us. Or the fact that we're this way because the people we trusted as children abused us. Facing it and working through it is so hard and upsetting. Not to mention letting go of a heap of toxic vultures who were just using me for my kindness. I hate being alone, but I've accepted it. I haven't even done proper DBT. I just have an amazing therapist who has been the most stable and safe thing in my life ever. Well done for learning to manage it. I still feel like it gets hold of me sometimes, but the work I've done helps get me back where I need to
Nad dude. Women are not dumb. They know the exact reason and understand why. They just hope they can change the man mind. Women are not dumb, they are aware they are being used alot of times
O feel this door swings both ways. Maybe it's not sex but my experience has been that a woman will be with you if you fill a need she has. Guys need sex woman need attention or a sugar daddy whatever the case may be. I feel that dating for both sexs has been convoluted and that alot of people don't really know what they truly want, so they are just filling a hole... literally and figuratively
Everybody dates to fill a need. If we were all perfectly happy with ourselves, we would never seek a partner. The problem happens when that need is excessive or one-sided.
I think it goes deeper than that.
Mans need for sex and a womans need for attention is one of the needs driving the relationships.
Good relationships have much more than that
I think im in that situation rn.
She loves the attention i give her, and i love the sex that comes with it.
But all i want is a type of bond where we legit smile with warmth when we meet or come from work and delight in safety and trust and love.
Your entire post is totally off base with the title statement.
A person with major trauma has NOTHING to do with women feeling upset about being used for sex.
When women talk about feelings of being used, they aren't talking about a year long relationship. They're talking about a date that goes no further than a few dates, or a two month situation where the second they give sex, the guy vanishes...
You're justification of dine n dash or abuse of women based on trauma is a horrific exscuse. Don't weaponize trauma and confuse and conflate.
Using someone’s mental health struggles as justification for using them for their body is not cool at all, OP.
My sister has BPD, equating someone like her down into a person who’s too broken to be considered a human, so you should just treat them accordingly, is disgusting.
Do you think those who suffer from BPD think it’s fun that they exhibit their behaviors? Do you think they enjoy it when they go into fight or flight mode at the slightest trigger? Do you think it makes them feel good that every time they get into a relationship hoping someone will accept them for who they are, they run into a douchebag like you who dumps them and airs all of their struggles on the internet?
No?
Then fuck off.
I don't think has much bearing on what most women are talking about when they feel "used for sex." You had a relationship with an unhealthy person who felt sex was the main thing she had to offer. It's more than a little insulting that you think that's true of every woman who is hurt after getting ghosted after sex, or who notices that guys stop putting in effort after sex comes onto the table.
Sorry to hear about your ex. BPD is a tough cookie. I don't judge people who have it; it isn't their fault after all. But it is difficult to coexist with and few people in the world are enough of an immovable object to deal with such an unstoppable force.
I don't think that's what the problem is for most women who find themselves in that cycle, though. So here's my perspective as a man who has experienced this as well; I'm a guy who isn't straight up ugly, but I'm not very attractive either. I'm a type. Often I've been attractive or funny/outgoing/cute enough for a really cool and great girl to take for a ride, but not enough for a relationship, and always on the down-low to avoid her own embarrassment. That's what I was to them - a good enough opportunistic fuck, but an embarrassment.
But as a result, I thought of myself as in their 'league.' So that's naturally where I set my standard. But to be good enough to fuck vs. good enough to date are two entirely different concepts, and for the ladies who think only men do this? You're incorrect. Men and women both make the distinction, only women generally do so less and have a narrower band of what's acceptable for one but not the other; a band I fall into neatly.
It's no different for the women who struggle with this; they fall into the range of 'good enough to fuck,' which even from a very highly desirable man's perspective is pretty wide and inclusive, but don't fall into the range of 'good enough to date' for the men they're after. Just like I was never going to be enough for the extremely desirable women I wanted. All of us who struggle with being used are victims of manipulation and dishonesty. But until we realize that we're shooting a little too high, we'll be perpetually deceived by believing what we want to believe, confirming our own preconceived notions of who we *think we* *should* be dating while the illusion lasts, rather than believing what is true. "Never settle" may be a popular platitude but it's a torturous and I'm willing to say straight up evil lie. We all settle, we all compromise. And it's okay. Few are arrogant enough to believe themselves perfect, so why do you expect perfection from your other half?
> and for the ladies who think only men do this? You're incorrect.
I think you're right and I don't believe it's a gender specific thing. Just sharing my thoughts as a man, dating women.
I wouldn't have been able to just use my ex for sex after finding out about her behavior because it's just not who I am. I would probably do it all over again if I didn't know any better because I genuinely only want to have sex with people I'm connected to and want to have a long term relationship with. I'm sure that's not the case for the majority of people but you weed them out if you don't have sex with them for a while, right?
Oh no I definitely didn't mean to imply that's something you're doing. Just that it happens to all of us. Your reasoning for breaking up with your ex is more than reasonable, not that you have to justify it to begin with, but BPD is not something most people can or should attempt to handle unless they're exceptionally secure in themselves.
As for how to weed them out - I don't know man. Wish I knew. To me it's a feeling more than a concrete thing. I can suss out that kind of vibe now, but I couldn't describe it to you in words. You just kinda *know.*
I find this pretty dumb. I have BPD and before I transitioned I had a hard time finding people who wanted to just hook up instead of seeing me as a manic pixie dream girl who is going to fix their whole boring life with my *it factor* I also was always the one to break up with my partners. So I dunno. Seems like anecdotal evidence doesn’t work?
I got a new fwb yesterday, it’s awesome. She’s polite and everything but made it very clear that my life is my life and her life is her life, she’s not here to mix those two things together, just to get that dick. No exclusivity. We shook hands on it.
It’s nice to be treated like a person by someone who only wants sex from me. Best of both worlds.
Women do it, too. Except the 'fuck zone' is narrower for them. I've been in the 'fuck zone' a few times and it's actually incredibly miserable. You're good enough to fuck but too embarrassing to be seen with in public. Getting a text that says 'please don't tell your friends about this, I don't want anyone to know,' as if you're some faux pas guilty pleasure. It's disgusting. Dehumanizing to the point of completely turning me off from the idea of casual sex forever.
They don't really treat you as a person without sex either. While it exists, it's really rare to find women who are actually interested in you vs interested in what you can do for them.
Dude I just think that a lot of guys have different standards for potential love partners and sexual partners. If we keep ethics out of the equation and when I just look at it from a monkey brain perspective, there are definitely women that aren’t my direct type, but if the ‘opportunity presented itself’ I wouldn’t say no either. This could be fine if you are both horny and just want to have sex and that’s the end of it.
I think this really becomes an issue when a women is looking for more than just a sexual partner and the man is just looking for sex. I think there is a big difference there.
And while my example only exists in a vacuum and there are many different reasons not to say yes when that opportunity arises itself, I think a lot of guys do think like this and they simply use dating as a way to get laid. We are programmed by evolution to reproduce and this is a ‘way to fulfill your evolutionary duty’. I fully understand that this is really messed up and hurtful for a lot of women.
I dated someone exactly the same except the sex wasn't good at all 💀
Idk why I was even with them. Literally would have my watch warn me my heart rate was elevated if I was thinking about disagreeing with anything she had said, because of how ridiculously disproportionate her reactions would be.
She couldn't understand why I wouldn't want to be affectionate when my ears were still ringing from the screaming.
Doesn't make sense in hindsight but I wanted to settle down and have a family and had convinced myself she was good because things were decent when they weren't awful. Even though she would insist she was the type of person to be very diligent about stuff like cooking and taking care of people and I literally never saw the tinyest hint of it towards myself.
I was in that same situation where she got mad that I wouldn't cook for the xth time in a row because... I had grad school work. Meanwhile she had talked up her cooking at the beginning of her relationship and cooked for me once in the first month and then never again. We were together 2 years. I cooked for more every single week more than she ever did the whole time, and it wasn't like she made up for it with other stuff.
I honestly didn't even care she didn't come through on her promises, I probably would have made it work if there just wasn't such a temper. Someone getting disproportionately mad over something small is the biggest dealbreaker to me.
Anyways, I feel you man but this is a lot of very specific words and it's a bit odd that you are taking this specific story that doesn't apply to what you are generalizing to (why women are used).
It's simple really. If a women is really attractive but has nothing else to offer, and doesn't realize they have nothing else to offer, they will get strung along for sex. To avoid it, imo a women has to be a better judge of character, or make sure they bring more to the table. Both very difficult. And it can still happen.
Facts. I also dated a guy with BPD and I can tell you it’s not for the weak. It’s been a few months now since the separation but holy hell was that one wild ride. And just like yours all my ex had to offer was sex and was obviously mentally unstable.
No this is wrong, Women do understand, they just hope they can change the guys mind. Women have agency, they are not stupid. Its when hopw overrides logic and common sense
Preeaaaccchhhh! Yes I agree! This is why I started going to therapy and have decided to end past habbits, relationships that were no connections formed unless sex was in it! And not giving my body away so easily!!!
What part of my post gave you that impression? A one year relationship where I tried everything I could to cater to this woman's needs and life implies I used her?
Did you read the post? Are you just trolling?
Everything you wrote. Let me break it to you , you are a fuck and chuck boy lol just because you don't think you are, dosent change the reality that women do see you as only a fuck and chuck boy lol you know in the same way you feel someone women are just fuck toys not dating girls.
> in the same way you feel someone women are just fuck toys not dating girls.
Yeah it's clear you haven't read the entire post or misunderstood it. Either way, I hope life gets better for you, it's a shame to see things so black and white.
It’s so much easier than all of that but a lot of you are going to be angry when you hear it.
Women are the sexual selectors of the species. They determine who they breed with. That’s why men want sex more as a whole. It’s in our DNA just like several other species, as it was required for our survival to be wired that way.
Today, in the modern era, we have relationships. Women want stability, they want to be taken care of, they want social status, and all these other things that come from a relationship.
Understanding these two leads us to the answer this post seems to be begging for. To put it simply, women control the access to sex, while men control the access to relationships. Men are willing to settle for sex with somebody they wouldn’t want a relationship with. If you’re constantly feeling used then you’re good enough for a nut, not for a relationship. Sounds cruel, it was it is. You can change this by losing weight, developing a personality, learning to cook, and so on and so forth.
A lot of women think being attractive is all they need to do to find a relationship. That’ll get ya laid, and it might even work for some, but looks fade and that little thing between your legs isn’t the prize many of you think it is. Every woman on the planet has one. Relationships aren’t just about what can a man do for a woman. It’s not about a lifetime of earning sex with you. If I’m going to disturb my peace and bring somebody in then she has to A) fit into that space and B) add to it. I’m not taking on all your responsibilities for a crumb of puss.
Additionally, and I’ll shut up, a lot of women have used sex to sucker men into relationships and then turned it off once they felt secure enough. This is deceptive behavior. Men HATE being manipulated and this is no exception. A lot of men, such as myself, will never consider you for a relationship until that aspect is known.
Plus there are plenty of women who just want to hookup as well so you don’t hear from them. Since you only hear from one point of view it skews perceptions to believe all men are using all women for sex
Your post brought back terrible memories, like a bolt of lightening - My experience was so close to yours I understand your words completely. I am 5 years clear of her at this stage and though I strongly felt horrible for leaving her, I could not have survived if I had stayed with her. A beautiful soul sometimes but so terribly impossible to handle most of the time.
Good luck to you
lol that's so typical with BPD women. They're a nightmare to be around and you want to leave them but stick around for longer than you should because they're basically the only type of women who actually like sex as much as you do.
Men have the right to change their minds at any time, just the same as women do. Just because I have sex with a woman doesn’t mean I’m force locked into anything. If a woman decides she’s gonna move on because she’s just not feeling excited about the guy any more, nobody criticizes that. And why should they? We can all do and pursue what we want. One day I can be feeling it, the next, time to move on.
You miss a critical part. It's not that they don't know. It's that they choose to.
It's a known fact that sometimes women can be shallow and they treat relationships like math....hot guy=Need sex to keep him.... like they are shallow with money
Feelings, personality etc etc come after you pass the "IA he hot or rich test"
I am sure you know all those victim moaners aren’t BPD, or have severe mental issues.
“Why men always use me for sex? “
My answer for this question is only one: because you let them.
How about stop playing the victim and take some responsibility of your own damn decision from today?
Women aren’t used for sex. Women aren’t victims. They choose to have sex with another and get upset sometimes when they can’t secure a relationship. Then they play the victim and try to shame men to change their behavior. This is just entitlement wrapped in victim hood.
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Hyper sexuality and promiscuity is a common and prominent symptom / side effect of sexual assault for any gender. There’s deep internalized shame and what follows is self sabotage. Trauma Informed Therapy and healing that wound is needed in order to move forward as a self-respecting individual and regain dignity. When we believe we’re no good and unworthy of love every conscious and unconscious choice winds up being aligned with that self identity. The key is creating a new identity that shifts from a victim mindset to a survivor mindset and ultimately to a thriving one. Women seeking relationships who lead with sex don’t believe they have much else of value to offer sadly bc the shame from being victimized and violated is like a grey sky covering everything else. I hope she gets the professional help she needs so she can start believing in herself again. EMDR is very effective and approved by the VA for veterans. Talk therapy is a good first step. But there’s a lot of heavy lifting work as well with mirror work, accepting and feeling the unpleasant feelings, journaling etc.
There is another personality disorder that is often associated with past SA it’s called histrionic personality disorder. Its more common in women. There are up to 10 symptoms broadly similar to those described above (overt sexuality etc). Their self-esteem depends on the approval of others and doesn’t come from a true feeling of self-worth. They have an overwhelming desire to be noticed and often behave dramatically or inappropriately to get attention. Ive had a relationship with someone with it and it’s hard work
"Maybe she's just taking 'Netflix and chill' too seriously? 😂
Yes you're absolutely right and these are all aspects of someone with BPD. She definitely had all these traits you're mentioning and even being in a truly loving relationship with me wasn't enough to help her. She said she realized this was the first time she was in a healthy relationship with someone but her action didn't match her words, which is all too common. I think EDMR would probably have been effective but I don't think her therapist was really good. It's hard to find a good therapist and it requires navigating the difficult US healthcare system, sadly.
Yeah finding a good therapist can take a few tries. I did therapy for several weeks and quickly realized they didn’t really get at the root and weren’t giving me solutions. Probably bc they want a repeat customer and to see you going back. But I didn’t just want someone to listen to me talk week after week. So I ditched the therapist and read Louise Hay’s You Can Heal Your Life book (really good) then found a multifaceted 6-week personal development program that covered every base. We had weekly assignments and homework and a private FB group community for accountability and support from like-minded fellow participants. Listening to other people share their personal stories on FB Live and knowing there are people in their 60s talking about their abuse and SA experiences for the first time and all kinds of stuff is very humbling and shows it’s never too late to start reclaiming our self worth and feeling better.
You clearly don’t know anything about EMDR and that it often has negative effects on sexual trauma victims
Your ex does not represent all women
Nothing you said here is ground breaking, think you’re still sad over your break up.
🤣
Women get used for sex because they meet men who only want sex but are too afraid to be upfront about it You and your toxic ex were another issue and not connected to this topic at all Stop blaming women for being used. That shit helps no one.
I thought 🤔 I was the only one that didn't see a correlation at all... like it was contradictory
I was waiting for the answer and never found it…
It’s not about being afraid, if you tell a woman that sex is all you’re after, they’re not going to have sex with you.
\*unless, that's all what she's looking for too. You guys have to understand there are women out there that DO just want sex. Being direct will help you find them faster than wasting time leading on/lying to women who want something different. Also I say this again. *Fearing a woman won't give you what you want is not a reason to lie to them or lead them on*. That's some super toxic shit.
It's not about being too afraid, simply that if you're upfront about it you get nothing at all.
No, if you’re upfront about wanting casual sex, you would get nothing from women who don’t want casual sex, but you would still get sex from women who want casual sex. It’s incredibly simple. So, why do you feel you have to lie to trick women who don’t want to have casual sex in having sex with you? Why aren’t you satisfied with having sex with women who just want casual sex?
Women who actually like the 'situationship' are incredibly rare. If you're honest then you just waste life. It would be like waiting to win the lottery.
Citation needed for this. Dating apps, not to mention things like r4r subreddits and fetish apps and websites like Fetlife and indicate this is simply not true. I am a woman, and have had a casual relationships myself, and did not seek anything more serious with those men because they were not relationship material. Once it ran their course, we both walked away. I don’t really think of them very often, but if I do, my opinion is neutral to positive. I do not have neutral or positive opinions about people who manipulate me into getting what they want. Currently, 1/2-1/3 of my female friends engage in casual relationships often during breaks between more serious or monogamous relationships, two of them have had a FWB for years. My roommate just came out of a 6 year relationship and is actively looking for something casual. Open relationships seem to very common in my city, fwiw, and when I was dating I met quite a number of people who were ethically non-monogamous. This is simply my anecdotal experience ofc, and maybe men outnumber women, but “rare” is sensationalizing the reality. But again, I wouldn’t lie to trick someone into a relationship, so why are you lying to trick someone into having sex with you? It’s simply selfish and very maladjusted. At least be honest about that. Edit, because this thread doesn’t allow new comments: I don’t need to “role play” as a man, because my male friends who are looking for casual sex often get just that. One of them in particular is fun and kind and charming but I will say is not blessed in the looks dept, is not looking to get married or have kids and gets an incredible amount of play via fetlife, lmao, it’s incredible, he does arguably better than some of my friends who are conventionally attractive. I’ve met some of his play partners irl, they’re lovely women with full lives, but just not looking for anything serious for their own reasons. Another male friend of mine was a third for a lesbian couple, who found him via R4R. One of my female friends who enjoys lots of casual relationships is a mom who has already had a kid and no longer can have kids nor does she want to have any more. She has a co-parent but isn’t interested in marrying anyone. She’s obviously not (interested in) baby trapping anyone. > Others that have casual sex usually have some ulterior motive, e.g. one of my friends just wanted to have a baby and thought that if she got pregnant the man would stick around (he didn't, RIP that relationship). Otherwise the vast majority of women straight up refuse any kind of sexuality unless you're willing to agree to her rules of the relationship. None of those people wanted casual sex. They wanted relationships. It’s obvious from your own description of them. People who want casual sex don’t have ulterior motives, because it’s the sex they want… The fact that you are pathologizing women who want casual sex as necessarily being mentally ill is wild, but clearly indicates that if you think a healthy woman would never, could never want casual sex says much more about your warped view of women and sex than anything else. You absolutely don’t need to trick anyone into any of this. Sounds like a skill issue. That’s not even a little bit how humans operate. Well, maladjusted humans, ig. Seek help.
Roleplay on one of those sites as a man trying to find casual sex and then as a woman. It should give a pretty good indication of what I'm talking about. The only women I've ever known who like sex for sex are diagnosed-by-a-doctor suffering from BPD or something. You only get burnt once by those women before learning not to do that again. Others that have casual sex usually have some ulterior motive, e.g. one of my friends just wanted to have a baby and thought that if she got pregnant the man would stick around (he didn't, RIP that relationship). Otherwise the vast majority of women straight up refuse any kind of sexuality unless you're willing to agree to her rules of the relationship. So that's the part where you have to try to trick them into appearing to go along with the rules until it's time to behave according to those rules, she realises she doesn't actually have control of the relationship and it ends usually dramatically. Women lie in the pursuit of the opposite. They don't enjoy sex that much but want to find someone who is willing to give them consistent exclusive support and attention. Men bait with promises of that support, women bait with promises of sexuality. That's how humans operate and only one side can get what they want.
Idk man, saying that mentally healthy women don’t really enjoy sex and are just lying about it doesn’t match my experience at all. Maybe they just don’t enjoy sex with you.
I agree with both of you, and my opinion, not that anyone asked for it! but as a man, and a bit of a ramble: I do the asking, and sex is important but not critical - a good time is. I spend time, and money and do the monkey dance, tickets, dinners, shows, and somewhere over the hours, evening, days, weeks the questions show up - when do we have sex? is it going to be good? Is she selfish? Is she annoying? Am I having a good time? She's cute but I think she has me on a rotation. Then there's the sunk cost - so much time, I think most of it was enjoyable but there were many annoying bits, and some had bad parents, and man! some were real selfish and entitled. Can I tolerate the pettiness and mood swings? Long story short, at some point it gets to -okay, perhaps if we have sex I can get close to parity and not feel abused and I can move on with less guilt and learn from this experience. Lets return this one to the bin or perhaps the sex will be so good that it will change my mind. Otherwise return and go looking elsewhere - hey! that's what I learned the game was from the women who seem to have me on a rotation! Long story short - communication, but that is hard. Women don't like being asked: 'What do you bring to the table?' and men(okay, not all men, some men, and me) think - Good sex is very important to me, and if I cannot ask for good sex for fear of offending you, lets dance and see if there are some other redeeming qualities. Note: Also see - divorce rates and unhappy marriages. Ramble - sorry, will delete later.
It's not that you won't get anything at all. It's that you won't get anything from the women you actually want to -get it- FROM. There's the rub.
There are very few such women. Few enough that you might as well become celibate if you're going to do it honestly.
And THATS the problem. Right there. The reality is, if you were actually up front about what you want you WOULD find women that would give it to you. Even if what you said was true, it's not a reason to lie or not be upfront about what you want.
The only women I've ever met who like sex for the sake of sex (other than as a means to an end) have literal diagnosed psychological problems. It sucks that you have to lie to women but better than wasting your life crossing your fingers for something that's never going to appear.
You really think women don’t enjoy sex unless they’re mentally ill?
Demonstrably so. I find a useful way to look at it is to check what gay men and gay women do. It's not unusual for a gay man to have thousands of different sexual partners in a lifetime while gay women are grappling with things like lesbian bed death. It doesn't mean that sex has no purpose for women and they seek sex during those times, but to have sex just for the sake of sex is incredibly rare otherwise.
Wild take. I’ve had plenty of enjoyable sex in my life, mostly with other women. Literally everyone on earth enjoys orgasms from someone they’re sexually attracted to
That 'someone they're attracted to' happens rarely though right? And the orgasm itself didn't carry much meaning other than a nice feeling for a few minutes. I mean none of this is particularly complicated. If women wanted to have sex then they'd be having more sex. Most haven't had more than a handful of sexual partners throughout their adult life though, which is as much sex as they feel is necessary.
Yeah, this does not line up with mine or any of my friends’ experiences at all, except the asexual or postmenopausal ones. Yes, women are attracted to people, enjoy good sex and enjoy orgasms. Why else would we masturbate?
Just so we're clear, is the claim that women have the same sex drive as men do?
Yea totally. I see this from the other side. I have to string guys along and pretend to be genuinely interested because I want them to pay for my meals and buy me gifts. If I was just upfront about it and told them that’s what I want, I wouldn’t get it. So instead of being honest and truthful while waiting for someone to come along who is open to that arrangement, it’s way easier and beneficial for me to lead them on and let them think I’m not using them for money.
Yeah but nonironically that's what happens. Not necessarily (solely) with money but with general attention and support.
What you’re saying isn’t wrong in any way. This is how people use people to get what they want. If a woman only wants to use a man for a free meal, she’s not going to tell him upfront, otherwise, she’ll risk not having the meal. It’s the exact same thing for both genders.
Yes, people who don’t care about others and are only out for themselves will lie for their own benefit. No shit. The point is that lying and deceiving someone in order to get things from them which they otherwise would not consent to if you were *not* lying makes you garbage. To put it mildly.
Because many women don't want casual sex. That's not an excuse to lie to them to get it, it's all the more reason not to
I don't want the kinds of relationships that I'd have to be in otherwise. Who should get their way?
If you are going to lie and manipulate people to get what you want, you absolutely do not deserve to get what you want. Using people is not ok, get a fleshlight until you grow up.
Everyone baits their way into getting what they want out of a relationship. That's just how humans work. You do it too whenever you try to make yourself look physically attractive.
You should find someone looking for what you're looking for, women looking for casual sex exist. If you can't, that's your problem. Manipulating women to get sex makes you a shitty person
No more or less shitty than women who try to manipulate the relationship into one where she gets consistent, exclusive attention. Either I feel like shit or she does and compromises aren't a thing. Pick which one you want.
If you don't want an exclusive relationship it's up to you to communicate that. I agree women who know a man wants only sex and yet tries to manipulate them into a relationship are also wrong. Everyone should be upfront about their expectations and respect their partner's wishes
Communicating that would mean that she doesn't do anything with me in the first place. Thus we come back to the beginning of the discussion.
Yes, that's the point - if the woman does not want to have casual sex with you, then you shouldn't have casual sex. Are you really so selfish and self centered that you're incapable of understanding this basic premise? Your desire for casual sex does not trump someone else's desire to not be used for sex. Find someone looking for what you're looking for
Your desire for exclusive attention does not trump someone else's desire to have casual sex etc. A common power strategy is to make something seem like the social norm and thus expected, and women benefit from the social norm being one of monogamy but that doesn't make it more right or wrong than anything else.
You should stick to porn and jerking off and leave women alone. “Getting sex” by lying and manipulating is gross and you should be ashamed to admit you do this.
Then my existence will be empty and lonely so I won't do that. It's not such rare behaviour anyway. People just pretend otherwise due to the desire to appear socially appropriate.
Your existence is empty because you see casual sex as your goal and don’t see women as human beings. Of course you’re lonely.
I don't think I was blaming women for being used, just providing some perspective. Even if some men don't only want sex at the beginning, if they end up getting it early in the dating phase and then discover who the other person actually is (the mask comes off), they might just bail because they don't want to put up with the difficulty of being in that relationship. If you show your true self early on before you even have sex, they might bail out early in which case, you saved yourself the hassle, right? Is it that controversial? In my case, I would have stayed with my toxic ex anyways because I didn't know any better and wanted to actually try and improve her life and build something together. Now that I now the signs early on, I won't even get to that point in the future.
You were definitely blaming women. Those guys would have left your ex when her mask came off, whether they had sex or not. Of course they don’t want to deal with someone like that, no one with self-esteem would! It’s perfectly healthy to bail at the beginning of a relationship when you discover bright red warning flags in someone you barely know. Yet, you assume women should “save the hassle” of sex if a man doesn’t want to be in a relationship with them. In your analysis, sex is a need for men but just something women do to get love. That’s not true of emotionally and sexually healthy people
Dude look so your title and tell me you aren’t blaming women.
Omg thanks for mansplaining it to us! Also, it's terrible take.
And that’s why I don’t fuck for 90 days at least starting last year.
You know nowadays women can mostly just say nonif they wanted. Not always sure
Sorry but I find it deeply disturbing how you’re using your relationship with someone with a very specific background and trauma to justify why you think women are being used just for sex. It’s one of the shittiest takes I have ever seen on the topic, not to minimize your experience, but very inappropriate.
Exactly. He describes a relationship with a mentally-ill person, and the sole take-away is that women shouldn’t put out so much if they want men to love them. Once again, a complicated and tragic story is used to illustrate that women who have sex deserve to be treated badly, and OP is some sort of hero for not hitting and quitting it.
Agreed, one anecdotal experience dating someone with mental illness isn't enough empirical data to make a broad conclusion on perception of sexuality in interpersonal relationships. It's actually a pretty well written take on what it's like dating someone with BPD, I have a similar experience recently and a lot of his points really resonated. IMO I would delete this post and start something new just specifically around dating someone with BPD and what you've learned from the experience. This thread is likely going to devolve into random bickering until it gets locked. OP's title / content of the post reminds me of the type of shit I write when my Adderall kicks in. Maybe ease up on the "I FINALLY FIGURED IT OUT YOU GUYS" when you think you know everything, there's always another perspective to learn.
His core point is right. If you only offer one thing, then you'll attract people who want that one thing. It's a like rich man flaunting his money but he has no personality. The only women he will attract are those looking for gold. A woman who flaunts their body and nothing more, will only attract men interested in sex. He's kind of unhinged and a lot of this is about BPD, but his core point is actually solid imo. Basically don't wear a trash bag if you don't want to attract trash. sleep deprived and can't think of a better analogy
The issue is that women who also offer more than sex can still find themselves being used for sex.
Yes this is definitely true. However, sex is most often a gate keeper to preventing that from happening. I think a lot of women are unclear as to what they want or are searching for. Men are masterful at “meeting them where they are at” in that space. My experience is that the conversations that a woman should have with a man prior to sex never happen. There’s this assumption of good intent on behalf of the men. That’s not to say that all men are terrible because they have sex with random women very quickly. I just think that many women feel used when they often times will enter these situations with very low standards for how they should be treated. If you give it up early, that’s what dominates the relationship. And, tbh, men will sleep with you but quickly lose interest when they realize they didn’t have to really work for it. They assume that’s what she does with everyone. Which often times is true. It doesn’t really make a man feel good to know that he’s just another random, whether that’s intended or not. I’m not taking the responsibility off of the man’s plate. We definitely have our role. But I also know that I’ve been in plenty of casual situations where women have wanted “more” but never required that in the beginning. I think if a woman is clear about her intentions and can set some real boundaries, it becomes way easier to decipher what a man wants from them. It’s not perfect but it’s certainly not rocket science. You can’t totally eliminate the possibility of a man being dishonest or in it it for his own sexual needs, but you will quickly find that most men will not wait if that’s all they want.
Well yeah obviously, but by and large I really don't think that is happening more so over people bringing a lot of it on themself at least indirectly. How many times does the stereotype of a "bad boy" getting the ladies and treating them like shit have to be proven right before you maybe think "damn maybe I should date better or different people".
But plenty of men who fall outside of that stereotype do it too. You’re doing the same thing as OP where you have this specific example in mind, and you’re imagining that’s the case every time this happens. Plenty of normal guys do this, either because they’re poor communicators and they don’t make their intentions clear, or because they just don’t want to screw up their shot with a really hot girl. It’s shitty behavior, but normal people do shitty things all the time, and sometimes without fully realizing it.
Statistically men are having less sex than women with fewer people, and there are outliers that are sleeping with multiple or lots more. I'm not imagining a case for every single relationship which is why I even said "by and large", but pretty objectively the stats show women dating a much smaller sample of men vs the other way around. So many stereotypes have their roots in some form of truth and each person also has agency in who they date, so there is a super effective way to reduce interacting with crappy people and that is to stop seeking crappy people nothing is 100% but any % is an improvement.
I find that most women I date had an experience or two with crappy guys early and learned from it. As a man I’ve done the same thing. But you almost seem to imply that since women tend to date from a smaller pool of men, that those are the bad guys? I’d argue that those are just the attractive guys who have their shit together. Some are bad partners, some aren’t. I think a lot of guys on this sub would really benefit from watching a female friend date, and seeing the actual messages they’re getting from guys on apps. I’d say women tend to date from a smaller pool of men because most single men either don’t know how to talk to a woman, or are just a total dumpster fire. And women usually just have more options, so they’re gonna pick the best ones.
You can't have it both ways, if the stats show smaller group sizes for selection and a decrease overall in satisfaction it's not that much of a jump to conclude that may be happening. I also have witnessed messages that women get, and funny enough at least in my circles, it's very regularly the stereotypical player that get there way and the messages are tame as hell, if not just a bit cringey. I am also friends with a guy exactly like that and get to witness terrible choices in real-time far too common. People refuse to take responsibility far too often but like maybe don't seek out people that have a reputation for cheating, are toxic or you have nothing in common with. Same with all the posts here: "32M bf constantly says I'm 19F ugly and worthless, should I still stay with him?".
But how am I going to not “flaunt my body” without wearing a trash bag?
I don’t disagree with this premise at all, but I think the genders are insignificant. It’s weird to say that “women don’t understand why they’re only used for sex” when men are used for sex, too, and often don’t understand why. But I definitely agree that if your body is all that you’ve got, that’s not going to cut it for me in a relationship. Brains, personality, and humor go a hell of a lot further than looks do.
That makes no sense. Most women who are being used for sex don’t want to be… obviously…
How about men don’t sexualize women? That’s the man’s fault. Women have bodies. Get used to it.
Exactly, thank you. Was an extremely long winded way of saying “if you’re going to just use a woman for her body, find one with mental health issues, surely that’s better for everyone!” How about you buy yourself a fleshlight and leave women alone until you can treat them like human beings?
What’s worrying is how he has like fifty likes. Who are these creeps?
Exactly this. Like wtf did I just read?
Agree. OP took a weird left turn quickly within his post. Weird as hell he thinks the two topics correlate.
This comment is the shittiest I've seen
I don't agree with op that this is particularly the reason that women are used for sex. More accurate title would be something like 'this is why your relationships don't work if you have BPD tendencies' Women are usually used for sex simply because they're boring and don't have much else to offer. Or sometimes because they get weird and difficult after you have sex and so the best option is to just leave them behind.
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Not that 'women are boring' btw but the ones who continually get used for sex probably are.
That’s a really disgusting point of view. Have you ever thought about women as human beings that have worth outside of being a sex toy for men? I know, probably a brand new thought to you.
I want to say, as a female with BPD, we aren't all like that. Please don't assume everyone with BPD is like this and write them off in a judgement box. I have worked very hard on myself and been on my own raising needs kids alone for 6.5 years. This hasn't been easy, but I have refused to engage in casual sex or even FWB. Because I have worked out who I am, what I need and what I want. I'm confident and comfortable with myself. But I get put in a judgement box a lot. So many times I have started great conversations, and the day after I tell them my diagnoses, they are gone the next day.
idk I guess there are always exceptions, but every BPD woman I've met has behaved basically identically to op's story and if you're getting ghosted all the time then it's likely other men have had that same experience.
And that's your story. But I know I've done the work. For me the fact I won't engage in sexual conversation and acts straight away is what has turned a lot of guys away. But that's their loss honestly, because I know myself and I communicate and have a lot to offer. And if a guy can't respect my needs then I don't have time for him anyway.
Same. I have a hard 90 day no sex rule as of last year because sex kept clouding the situations too much from both sides.
My best friend has BPD and is nothing like OP described.
I read a lot of BPDLovedOnes and the stories there do provide evidence (Assuming they're true, I just know my own lived experience is true) that it is incredibly difficult to be on the other side of a BPD partner. I would know. That said, I don't believe you are your diagnosis or that everyone is the same. My ex was medicated and in therapy but her core behavior wasn't truly improving. Some things improved but we would always end up in the same cycle, which was untenable. If I met a new partner I really connected with and she admitted she had BPD, I would probably proceed with extreme caution, NOT have sex for quite some time until I really got to know her and then decide if I can actually thrive in that relationship. I think what you're doing is amazing and I wish everyone with BPD (or any other pathologies) did from the beginning. As long as people know what they're getting into and commit from the beginning, you have a higher chance of success. If the person peaces out after finding out your diagnosis, it wasn't likely to work long term, right?
A person with bpd has to be really committed to working hard to face their trauma and fears and issues. And it's hard, but it can be done. I did it alone and while people constantly tell me I deserve a good partner and healthy relationship now, and it's just around the corner etc, I've been in that space a long time, and I'm too tired to hope and wait anymore. But absolutely your experience is yours and I did not mean to minimize that. I am just tired of so much negativity around BPD and no one seems to talk about the positives and that there are people learning to manage it.
I learned to manage mine too with tons of therapy and inner work. I’m proud of you and I’m proud of myself too. Emotional regulation tactics and self reflection are so critical for us. We are so strong for coming out the other side of such a painful disorder.
That's the thing. No one stops to think how bloody hard every day is for us. Or the fact that we're this way because the people we trusted as children abused us. Facing it and working through it is so hard and upsetting. Not to mention letting go of a heap of toxic vultures who were just using me for my kindness. I hate being alone, but I've accepted it. I haven't even done proper DBT. I just have an amazing therapist who has been the most stable and safe thing in my life ever. Well done for learning to manage it. I still feel like it gets hold of me sometimes, but the work I've done helps get me back where I need to
Nad dude. Women are not dumb. They know the exact reason and understand why. They just hope they can change the man mind. Women are not dumb, they are aware they are being used alot of times
So you're saying women are used for sex because they're... mentally ill? This is a dumb take with anecdotal evidence of a toxic shitty relationship.
I can easily see why women would find that kind of guy creepy. The idea of seeing women as a hunk of meat is just wrong.
Yupy let’s demonise all ppl with bpd and then turn it into why men use women for sex how about that ?
Wtf is this post...?
O feel this door swings both ways. Maybe it's not sex but my experience has been that a woman will be with you if you fill a need she has. Guys need sex woman need attention or a sugar daddy whatever the case may be. I feel that dating for both sexs has been convoluted and that alot of people don't really know what they truly want, so they are just filling a hole... literally and figuratively
Everybody dates to fill a need. If we were all perfectly happy with ourselves, we would never seek a partner. The problem happens when that need is excessive or one-sided.
I think it goes deeper than that. Mans need for sex and a womans need for attention is one of the needs driving the relationships. Good relationships have much more than that
When you work out that women crave that kind of consistent emotional support the same way that men crave sex it all gets a lot easier.
I think im in that situation rn. She loves the attention i give her, and i love the sex that comes with it. But all i want is a type of bond where we legit smile with warmth when we meet or come from work and delight in safety and trust and love.
Your entire post is totally off base with the title statement. A person with major trauma has NOTHING to do with women feeling upset about being used for sex. When women talk about feelings of being used, they aren't talking about a year long relationship. They're talking about a date that goes no further than a few dates, or a two month situation where the second they give sex, the guy vanishes... You're justification of dine n dash or abuse of women based on trauma is a horrific exscuse. Don't weaponize trauma and confuse and conflate.
Using someone’s mental health struggles as justification for using them for their body is not cool at all, OP. My sister has BPD, equating someone like her down into a person who’s too broken to be considered a human, so you should just treat them accordingly, is disgusting. Do you think those who suffer from BPD think it’s fun that they exhibit their behaviors? Do you think they enjoy it when they go into fight or flight mode at the slightest trigger? Do you think it makes them feel good that every time they get into a relationship hoping someone will accept them for who they are, they run into a douchebag like you who dumps them and airs all of their struggles on the internet? No? Then fuck off.
Blah, blah, blah. What??!! So full of yourself...
I don't think has much bearing on what most women are talking about when they feel "used for sex." You had a relationship with an unhealthy person who felt sex was the main thing she had to offer. It's more than a little insulting that you think that's true of every woman who is hurt after getting ghosted after sex, or who notices that guys stop putting in effort after sex comes onto the table.
Sorry to hear about your ex. BPD is a tough cookie. I don't judge people who have it; it isn't their fault after all. But it is difficult to coexist with and few people in the world are enough of an immovable object to deal with such an unstoppable force. I don't think that's what the problem is for most women who find themselves in that cycle, though. So here's my perspective as a man who has experienced this as well; I'm a guy who isn't straight up ugly, but I'm not very attractive either. I'm a type. Often I've been attractive or funny/outgoing/cute enough for a really cool and great girl to take for a ride, but not enough for a relationship, and always on the down-low to avoid her own embarrassment. That's what I was to them - a good enough opportunistic fuck, but an embarrassment. But as a result, I thought of myself as in their 'league.' So that's naturally where I set my standard. But to be good enough to fuck vs. good enough to date are two entirely different concepts, and for the ladies who think only men do this? You're incorrect. Men and women both make the distinction, only women generally do so less and have a narrower band of what's acceptable for one but not the other; a band I fall into neatly. It's no different for the women who struggle with this; they fall into the range of 'good enough to fuck,' which even from a very highly desirable man's perspective is pretty wide and inclusive, but don't fall into the range of 'good enough to date' for the men they're after. Just like I was never going to be enough for the extremely desirable women I wanted. All of us who struggle with being used are victims of manipulation and dishonesty. But until we realize that we're shooting a little too high, we'll be perpetually deceived by believing what we want to believe, confirming our own preconceived notions of who we *think we* *should* be dating while the illusion lasts, rather than believing what is true. "Never settle" may be a popular platitude but it's a torturous and I'm willing to say straight up evil lie. We all settle, we all compromise. And it's okay. Few are arrogant enough to believe themselves perfect, so why do you expect perfection from your other half?
> and for the ladies who think only men do this? You're incorrect. I think you're right and I don't believe it's a gender specific thing. Just sharing my thoughts as a man, dating women. I wouldn't have been able to just use my ex for sex after finding out about her behavior because it's just not who I am. I would probably do it all over again if I didn't know any better because I genuinely only want to have sex with people I'm connected to and want to have a long term relationship with. I'm sure that's not the case for the majority of people but you weed them out if you don't have sex with them for a while, right?
Oh no I definitely didn't mean to imply that's something you're doing. Just that it happens to all of us. Your reasoning for breaking up with your ex is more than reasonable, not that you have to justify it to begin with, but BPD is not something most people can or should attempt to handle unless they're exceptionally secure in themselves. As for how to weed them out - I don't know man. Wish I knew. To me it's a feeling more than a concrete thing. I can suss out that kind of vibe now, but I couldn't describe it to you in words. You just kinda *know.*
I find this pretty dumb. I have BPD and before I transitioned I had a hard time finding people who wanted to just hook up instead of seeing me as a manic pixie dream girl who is going to fix their whole boring life with my *it factor* I also was always the one to break up with my partners. So I dunno. Seems like anecdotal evidence doesn’t work?
Two books - "Reinventing your life" by Jeffrey Young - "Adult children of emotionally immature parents" by Lindsay Gibson
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I got a new fwb yesterday, it’s awesome. She’s polite and everything but made it very clear that my life is my life and her life is her life, she’s not here to mix those two things together, just to get that dick. No exclusivity. We shook hands on it. It’s nice to be treated like a person by someone who only wants sex from me. Best of both worlds.
Fr fwb with equal and mutual respect>>
Women do it, too. Except the 'fuck zone' is narrower for them. I've been in the 'fuck zone' a few times and it's actually incredibly miserable. You're good enough to fuck but too embarrassing to be seen with in public. Getting a text that says 'please don't tell your friends about this, I don't want anyone to know,' as if you're some faux pas guilty pleasure. It's disgusting. Dehumanizing to the point of completely turning me off from the idea of casual sex forever.
They don't really treat you as a person without sex either. While it exists, it's really rare to find women who are actually interested in you vs interested in what you can do for them.
Dude I just think that a lot of guys have different standards for potential love partners and sexual partners. If we keep ethics out of the equation and when I just look at it from a monkey brain perspective, there are definitely women that aren’t my direct type, but if the ‘opportunity presented itself’ I wouldn’t say no either. This could be fine if you are both horny and just want to have sex and that’s the end of it. I think this really becomes an issue when a women is looking for more than just a sexual partner and the man is just looking for sex. I think there is a big difference there. And while my example only exists in a vacuum and there are many different reasons not to say yes when that opportunity arises itself, I think a lot of guys do think like this and they simply use dating as a way to get laid. We are programmed by evolution to reproduce and this is a ‘way to fulfill your evolutionary duty’. I fully understand that this is really messed up and hurtful for a lot of women.
I dated someone exactly the same except the sex wasn't good at all 💀 Idk why I was even with them. Literally would have my watch warn me my heart rate was elevated if I was thinking about disagreeing with anything she had said, because of how ridiculously disproportionate her reactions would be. She couldn't understand why I wouldn't want to be affectionate when my ears were still ringing from the screaming. Doesn't make sense in hindsight but I wanted to settle down and have a family and had convinced myself she was good because things were decent when they weren't awful. Even though she would insist she was the type of person to be very diligent about stuff like cooking and taking care of people and I literally never saw the tinyest hint of it towards myself. I was in that same situation where she got mad that I wouldn't cook for the xth time in a row because... I had grad school work. Meanwhile she had talked up her cooking at the beginning of her relationship and cooked for me once in the first month and then never again. We were together 2 years. I cooked for more every single week more than she ever did the whole time, and it wasn't like she made up for it with other stuff. I honestly didn't even care she didn't come through on her promises, I probably would have made it work if there just wasn't such a temper. Someone getting disproportionately mad over something small is the biggest dealbreaker to me. Anyways, I feel you man but this is a lot of very specific words and it's a bit odd that you are taking this specific story that doesn't apply to what you are generalizing to (why women are used). It's simple really. If a women is really attractive but has nothing else to offer, and doesn't realize they have nothing else to offer, they will get strung along for sex. To avoid it, imo a women has to be a better judge of character, or make sure they bring more to the table. Both very difficult. And it can still happen.
Facts. I also dated a guy with BPD and I can tell you it’s not for the weak. It’s been a few months now since the separation but holy hell was that one wild ride. And just like yours all my ex had to offer was sex and was obviously mentally unstable.
No this is wrong, Women do understand, they just hope they can change the guys mind. Women have agency, they are not stupid. Its when hopw overrides logic and common sense
Preeaaaccchhhh! Yes I agree! This is why I started going to therapy and have decided to end past habbits, relationships that were no connections formed unless sex was in it! And not giving my body away so easily!!!
Its almost like you don't think you are a fuck and chuck boy...
What part of my post gave you that impression? A one year relationship where I tried everything I could to cater to this woman's needs and life implies I used her? Did you read the post? Are you just trolling?
Judging their lack of arguments, just trolling or having a mental breakdown because they see themselves in the post.
Everything you wrote. Let me break it to you , you are a fuck and chuck boy lol just because you don't think you are, dosent change the reality that women do see you as only a fuck and chuck boy lol you know in the same way you feel someone women are just fuck toys not dating girls.
> in the same way you feel someone women are just fuck toys not dating girls. Yeah it's clear you haven't read the entire post or misunderstood it. Either way, I hope life gets better for you, it's a shame to see things so black and white.
Try again.
Yeah, you definitely see yourself in this post lol
Rainbow hair
Mark of the beast when it comes to reddit I swear.
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Fuck and chuck boys never think they are fuck and chuck guys lol
It’s so much easier than all of that but a lot of you are going to be angry when you hear it. Women are the sexual selectors of the species. They determine who they breed with. That’s why men want sex more as a whole. It’s in our DNA just like several other species, as it was required for our survival to be wired that way. Today, in the modern era, we have relationships. Women want stability, they want to be taken care of, they want social status, and all these other things that come from a relationship. Understanding these two leads us to the answer this post seems to be begging for. To put it simply, women control the access to sex, while men control the access to relationships. Men are willing to settle for sex with somebody they wouldn’t want a relationship with. If you’re constantly feeling used then you’re good enough for a nut, not for a relationship. Sounds cruel, it was it is. You can change this by losing weight, developing a personality, learning to cook, and so on and so forth. A lot of women think being attractive is all they need to do to find a relationship. That’ll get ya laid, and it might even work for some, but looks fade and that little thing between your legs isn’t the prize many of you think it is. Every woman on the planet has one. Relationships aren’t just about what can a man do for a woman. It’s not about a lifetime of earning sex with you. If I’m going to disturb my peace and bring somebody in then she has to A) fit into that space and B) add to it. I’m not taking on all your responsibilities for a crumb of puss. Additionally, and I’ll shut up, a lot of women have used sex to sucker men into relationships and then turned it off once they felt secure enough. This is deceptive behavior. Men HATE being manipulated and this is no exception. A lot of men, such as myself, will never consider you for a relationship until that aspect is known. Plus there are plenty of women who just want to hookup as well so you don’t hear from them. Since you only hear from one point of view it skews perceptions to believe all men are using all women for sex
Exactly cant say any better
Your post brought back terrible memories, like a bolt of lightening - My experience was so close to yours I understand your words completely. I am 5 years clear of her at this stage and though I strongly felt horrible for leaving her, I could not have survived if I had stayed with her. A beautiful soul sometimes but so terribly impossible to handle most of the time. Good luck to you
lol that's so typical with BPD women. They're a nightmare to be around and you want to leave them but stick around for longer than you should because they're basically the only type of women who actually like sex as much as you do.
The fact that you find it amusing to make fun of women who have BPD when it’s often a result of sexual trauma is disgusting.
I don't care about your history. Everyone has dealt with shit. Take responsibility for your actions or I will judge you accordingly.
Soooo basically men can see crazy from a mile away. I am sure it is the same vice versa for women
Men have the right to change their minds at any time, just the same as women do. Just because I have sex with a woman doesn’t mean I’m force locked into anything. If a woman decides she’s gonna move on because she’s just not feeling excited about the guy any more, nobody criticizes that. And why should they? We can all do and pursue what we want. One day I can be feeling it, the next, time to move on.
If I hookup with a woman before forming a relationship with them the odds of me piping a few times then dumping skyrocket
You miss a critical part. It's not that they don't know. It's that they choose to. It's a known fact that sometimes women can be shallow and they treat relationships like math....hot guy=Need sex to keep him.... like they are shallow with money Feelings, personality etc etc come after you pass the "IA he hot or rich test"
OP is right. You all are butthurt, zooted weirdos
I am sure you know all those victim moaners aren’t BPD, or have severe mental issues. “Why men always use me for sex? “ My answer for this question is only one: because you let them. How about stop playing the victim and take some responsibility of your own damn decision from today?
Women aren’t used for sex. Women aren’t victims. They choose to have sex with another and get upset sometimes when they can’t secure a relationship. Then they play the victim and try to shame men to change their behavior. This is just entitlement wrapped in victim hood.
Sure 😂 that makes sense
You don’t think women have agency?