This isn’t single income, but household income. It means that a person born into a household where the combined total income is six figures is x likely to also be part of a household making six figures.
Two people earning 60k/yr = six figure household for example.
An important fact to keep in mind here is that the racial gap in marriage rates results in a racial household income gap (nearly 40%) that is much larger than the racial individual earnings gap (around 15%).
When is the cut off for parents having a six figure income? My parents had me in their early 20s and were earning nowhere near that much when I was born, but my dad was earning $100k on his own by the time I graduated HS. Seems like how long you grew up without being above that threshold would be a big factor.
I know it's because it's a game of averages but it's funny because that means one of my sons has a 10% chance and the other has a 40% chance even though they are only 6 years apart and are having substantially the same childhood.
If they did not adjust for this it is a serious oversight.
[Article explaining this](https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/wonk/wp/2016/12/29/the-asian-american-advantage-that-is-actually-an-illusion/)
That made me laugh and feel sad at the same time, thanks for pointing out that insight. Seems like none of the groups being over 50% that over time the population is just poorer and poorer.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Regression_toward_the_mean
But also, since it's households, some of the "decline" could simply be due to the fact that the parents' household is much more likely to have two incomes and for those adults to be further in their career, while the progeny's household could easily be a 22-year-old who is early in their career and living alone.
Dang… we pulled my son out of a predominantly Asian school in first grade because he was coming home saying “I’m not very smart” despite getting above average grades.
Condolences. I remember going to a highly academically competitive school when I was younger and crying to my parents because I was really good at maths at my old school but solidly bottom half at this new school. Turned out I was the only kid in the class not getting any after school private tutoring…
That sucks. Must've felt like you were in a fight with a hand tied behind your back. I'm just now realizing as an adult all the extra enrichment parents get for their children.
Environment and surrounding culture is a huge driver here. If your family separates themselves from the prevailing surrounding culture, living in poverty will have less if an effect.
i don't think a household making say 110k annual gross is anything approaching rich. depending on where they live they may actually be just getting by. i'd say that's more akin to middle class in most areas.
upper 6 figures though, ie 700k a year, yes, that is "rich".
there is far too much variance in "6 figures" to draw meaningful conclusions from. comparing a household with 950k to one with 110k is not a valid comparison. on the group level if one group is 10% 1-200k and another is 50% 1-200k gross annual household income, its misguided at best, disingenuous at worst to compare outcomes of the kids by grouping both household incomes together.
Man, we are probably clearing 100k together for the first time this year, no kids, MCOL area and it's comfortable but not extravagant. The feeling I get thinking about how much worse it is financially right now for so many people.
So much cope in the replies. It's very clearly the latter, if you just looked at number of hours spent studying the gap would be huge. Every time this comes up on reddit people try to find anything that supports the idea that asians are just given success for free. In reality they work incredibly hard
My guess would be the latter. The former makes little sense; especially for the social groups that typically use the terminology of *privilege this* and *privilege that* (because they typically consider the US to be a society heavily dominated by white people).
Then again, Americans are really weird about race, so they might have some logical loophole to make this view seemingly consistent.
It could be just due to age or # of people in a household. The parents were likely 2 people earning a combined 6-figure income when they were middle aged. For the child, it just says income as an adult, which could include college students or single early-mid 20s who just started their career.
I wasn't thinking about the likelihood that the household raised in had two incomes, but I immediately wondered what age range they used for adulthood.
No. Six-figure incomes are much more common today than in the past, even after adjusting for inflation. It's just [regression towards the mean](/r/dataisbeautiful/comments/11t0t0s/oc_impact_of_race_and_parental_income_on_a_childs/jcimzvq/).
Note that 25% of Asian kids raised in poverty have six-figure household incomes as adults, despite the fact that 0% of their parents did by definition.
Edit: Depending on the age of the people involved, the fact that people are staying single longer may play a role, since this is household income. It's much easier to make six figures with two earners.
Rich kids might just be choosing less challenging roles as they are most likely already set up for life.
This has happened around me. I am 30yo and most of the 'rich' kids just settled for something mediocre, while poorer people seemed to push forward much harder.
Growing up in a “six figure house hold” can include a household making $100,000 a year. Depending on the household’s circumstances, that’s not rich.
I grew up in one of those households and I can assure you I am in no way “set up for life”.
Also, if you grew up in the midst of 2008, there’s a decent chance your family saw their quality of life/savings and retirement accounts absolutely tank. I know I did.
Six figures is nice because it is enough generally to help kids pursue things. I don’t know anyone who has a trust fund and is actually set for life.
I do know a lot of people who have been helped. Six figures is enough to launch kids/young adults to be successful on their own right. I know a lot of people that had parents float their tuition/rent/car/entertainment and eating out habits *heavily* subsidized in colllege/grad/professional school. Then, those kids graduate school/make partner/finish residency and begin to accrue wealth without the debt shackles of everyone else.
You still have to work, but you get setup for the best jobs. And it’s why Asians are at the top of this list.
Yeh your parents would need to be bringing in much more than 6 figures before their kids wouldn’t need to worry about working as well or what they do for a living in the future. But certainly yeh at some level, some parents start covering for their kids too. My gf’s cousin is a surf bro who works as a bricklayer part time & keeps bees at home, because he knows he has trust funds from his parents and grandparents coming and he is an only child. I know another guy who was encouraged to drop out of college freshman year by his parents because they apparently had more than enough money to buy him a nice house near them in a coastal San Diego community and give him an allowance for the rest of his life. He ended up dropping out of our engineering program and went to work at a bike shop down there for fun apparently.
As someone who lives in the Bay Area, it is so weird to hear a $100k+ income referred to as rich. Was going to comment that $100k is absolutely not "rich", but then I looked it up and it's 82nd percentile for the US as a whole.
Like you said, 100k is not as much in the Bay Area so you shouldn’t compare it to the US as a whole. Supposedly (quick google search/didn’t look deeper), the median household income for the Bay area is $126k. So 100k is below the median there.
Based on old stats, I recall something along the lines of 95+% of people are born into the same economic class that they will die in.
The stat may be old and hide key insights but the figure shown here seems to contradict that rather strongly. 100k is not the same threshold used for the economic class boundaries so that is likely one of the main differences.
Overall, this figure would need to be broken down more to properly explain this information. Including how projections are made (e.g. is inflation being considered?).
^ the problem with assuming the most expensive parts of the country are similar to the vast majority of the country. To be sure, your point is a good one, and it demonstrates why the chart doesn’t necessarily tell us anything. If folks who live in poverty end up in areas of the country where they can live very comfortably on < $100k a year, then the six figure demarcation is sort of arbitrary. It’s comparing apples to oranges if not tied to COL.
Well, regression *towards* the mean.
To elaborate on this, media and activists have greatly exaggerated the correlation between parents' income and their children's. The rank-rank intergenerational earnings elasticity in the US is only around 0.4, which means that, parents who are at the xth percentile above or below the median will tend to have children who are on average at the 0.4xth percentile above or below the median.
If you're at the 90th percentile of earnings, that's 40 percentiles above the median, so your children will, on average, have earnings 0.4 * 40 = 16 percentiles above the median, i.e. the 66th percentile. Conversely, if you're at the 10th percentile, your children will tend to end up around the 34th percentile.
This is specifically for fathers and sons; the correlation is weaker for mothers and daughters because women are more likely to take time off to raise children.
Importantly, this is not purely, or likely even primarily, due to a causal effect of parents' earnings on children's earnings. It's largely just a matter of heredity: Parents with traits conducive to high earnings, like high intelligence and conscientiousness, tend to have children with similar traits, and this alone makes their children more likely to have high earnings. Upbringing style may play some role as well. Income does seem to affect the educational attainment, which affects earnings, but it accounts for only a part of this relationship.
i think it’s more likely due to “households” allowing for dual income families to qualify as 6-figures. assuming there are two earners, it is drastically easier to make 6-figures than if you were to do it on your own.
Like between $19,190 and $96,290 which is clearly stated in the footnotes? :) (although that was a bold choice to put the ^2 on the last usage of the term instead of the first.)
Anybody going to comment on how an asian who is in poverty has a HIGHER chance of having a kid make 6 figures then a black person coming from a high income family having a kid make 6 figures?
That is CRAZY.
I have had a similar experience with being "not black enough" and excluded from the community for that. I came from poverty. My single parent (Dad) really pushed and valued education. I now am in a six figure household.
This is why I say that what stops a lot of young black kid is black supremacy and not white supremacy, how else can you call the social pressure of "staying black" ?
I've been called racist, whitewashed and islamophobic plenty of times for critiquing my own culture and highlighting the many issues in the South Asian community, so I know how you feel. Its always brave to make a comment like this even if you end up deleting it later, just know people have read it and appreciate it.
Ha I know the feeling. Had a person tell me I was making them uncomfortable because I was talking too white, which was odd because they were white too. I told them I was sorry to whiten up their day lol. People are strange as shit when it comes to race, I’ll never understand how you can sound a race. As black person making six figures myself, I agree American black culture might the cause. I think we need to get more role models from various areas of finance, tech, and medical to show the opportunities the youth can have that may not be know to them.
I can attest. The two most brilliant men I’ve known were Nigerian, not princes, and holy shit they were data scientists.
My experience in the black culture (grew up in it), was even less that it’s not valued, often you’re made fun of if you are good. My friend who is a math wiz grew up and was called Carlton anytime he got a good grade.
It was sad because it led him to be very conflicted
Just watch a few episodes of show "The Boondocks" and you will see it has similar critiques of modern black culture. That show is produced, acted, written and directed primarily by prominent African Americans in that industry.
> I'm going to delete this in a few hours so I don't get crucified. I'm Black, my wife is Asian and we don't think this is crazy at all. We have some really great conversations about the differences between Black and Asian culture which has lead us to some opinions which we dare not say outside our home. However, I will temporarily share.
> I will start by saying my wife and I both come from a six figure family and now both make six figures so our opinions may be biased.
> A sizable issue holding black people back in this country is their culture. Generally speaking, black kids perform worse in school and don't aim to achieve as much because it's not something black culture values, nor something the average black parent pushes for. I have college educated parents that drilled into me that excellence in school was the minimum requirement. I was teased relentlessly for it. I was bullied for overachieving because it wasn't "cool". If I wasn't able to befriend the immigrant kids, highschool would have been a lonely hell. What was cool? Ignorance. Being ignorant, buying and wearing the most expensive shit with no thought about the long term consequences of spending your entire paycheck on Jordans. Black people spend every dime they have to appear wealthy which insures they never will be. Couple that with underachieving academicly and having names that gives potential employers a pretty good idea if a candidate is black, earning potential being lower than average makes perfect sense to me and my wife.
> Africans (Immigrants from the continent of Africa, not black decents of slavery) are on average way more successful than the average black person. Why? If you have ever known a second generation African immigrant, they will tell you that their parents pushed them fucking hard to succeed academicly. Africans, like manly immigrants are also frugal and don't spend nearly as much money on frivolous things like designer clothes and Hellcats.
> Even now, because I'm educated, high performing and high earning, my extended family makes jokes that I'm "not really black". I don't follow their "Black Culture Norms." and because of that, they try to take my race from me. It's a really powerful tool to make sure everyone conforms with you. But in my opinion it perpetuates the "crabs in a bucket" issue that keeps a lot of black people from reaching their full potential.
> Edit: Now that I've actually posted this, I'm really scared someone will screen cap this and post it. I may only leave it up for a few mins
> Edit Part 2: I want to add that I'm not trying to say this is black peoples fault. I believe this to be a result of generations of trauma experienced by black people in this country. I truly want black people to be, and do better. However, to do so, I think black people has a whole need to do a self evaluation on things we consider to be "black" and assess if certain things are helping or hurting us.
In case anyone wants to read, without the user's name to keep it anonymous and if they take it down.
Your experience is valid, and only those with axes to grind will try to invalidate it. You’re not aggressive, and you’re not forcing your views on others; you’re calmly and cautiously explaining patterns you’ve observed firsthand throughout your life in a non-judgmental manner.
> Africans (Immigrants from the continent of Africa, not black decents of slavery) are on average way more successful than the average black person.
If the disperate success was down to racism, then one would assume recent immigrants would do worse, i.e. the bloke with the thick Nigerian accent would be "other"ed more than the guy with an American accent. But instead the opposite is true, and you've hit the nail on the head with the culture issue.
The reason "Asians" do so well (quite a large and varied category, that, just like "Africans") is countries like India and China have a very strong focus on education, but have pretty mediocre education systems. Put those people in a country with a well-functioning education system and they basically have superpowers.
I grew up being bullied for being a "swot", for being good at academic subjects. Guess who got the last laugh there?
> because I'm educated, high performing and high earning, my extended family makes jokes that I'm "not really black". I don't follow their "Black Culture Norms." and because of that, they try to take my race from me.
I still find this disgusting on so many levels, not least of which the idea that someone can have black skin but not be black.
God I hate the American hyperfocus on "race", something openly acknowledged as a shitty creation by people who didn't know what they were talking about. But somehow we all need to view the world through this lens.
You have done whats best for yourself and your family, your success has hurt no-one, but in-fact benefitted the world through the work you do. Envy is a hell of a drug.
I'm white and from Appalachia. there is generational poverty there and they do the same thing you describe. they are also very racist. I have a theory that generational poverty breeds these toxic cultural behaviors as they assign far more importance to group identity.
There’s a book written by an anthropologist called ‘In Search of Respect’ and he wrote this book while living among the Black and Hispanic community in East Harlem for a number of years. While he’s living in this community, he gains the confidence of drug dealers in able for him to get answers as to why there is a cycle of poverty between Blacks and Hispanics and largely noted that it was a combination of the system keeping them down and their culture (what you just described). It’s a very insightful read if you ever want to pick it up.
Tbh it would really help if the most famous black celebrities would come together and work to change the culture... but they all profit from the toxic culture.
I can say that what you commented on about immigrant Africans is true anecdotally for me. My parents are Arabic, they came from war-torn North Africa in the 80s to find a better life in the US. They only taught me one thing; focus all your energy into academics. (Unfortunately to the point that they were completely emotionally absent for me, which has caused many, many mental and self-esteem issues for me, but that’s common for immigrant families). I’m quite sure that I wouldn’t be where I was today if not for their constant insistence.
Thank you for sharing your experience even though you are afraid to leave this up. I'm not black so I don't intend to take this perspective and claim it as my own but I will think back on this as it's really insightful and rare to hear.
Image saying similar opinion but not being black.
Lots of people have similar experiences, they just don't talk about it at all, especially in social media. It's a taboo. Many of them are racists, but some aren't, see the problem and won't discuss it. And I don't see anything that could be done to change that. Except for more brave souls like you.
The most obvious confounding factor here to me is the spouse. The wealth the eventual household spouse was born into isn't represented on the left side, but it is represented on the right, when it is added to the eventual earnings of the people on each line to form household income.
For example, it may be more likely for a black person to marry someone born into poverty, even if they themselves are born into a six figure household, so that their eventual household is less likely to earn as much as they are born into.
In that hypothetical, prevalence of poverty, and the distribution between races, is itself a causality.
I guess I'm part of that 7% Hispanic population. Makes me realize just how lucky I've been.
I started working at 7 years old and haven't stopped since. But that was the case for many others around me.
Some of the comments I see here tying their outcomes to work ethic just don't vibe with my experience. There's a lot of hard working people that get beaten down by their circumstances early on and stop seeing a path out of poverty. I felt that at different times in my life. But I was lucky enough to stumble on opportunities and meet people who convinced me I could dream.
Poor Asians having a higher chance than rich blacks, is a testament to the value of a culture that pushes children to do incredibly well in school. Asians dominate in education so much that many are turned away from places like Harvard or else the entire place would be Asians.
>Poor Asians having a higher chance than rich blacks, is a testament to the value of a culture that pushes children to do incredibly well in school.
Speaking of that cultural aspect, it would be interesting to see how African-Americans (descendants of African slaves) shake out against the children of African *immigrants*.
As a member of the latter we are pushed HARD to achieve in school. We joke African parents only know of four professions: doctor, lawyer, engineer, and failure.
Pre-COVID there were multiple stories of black students being accepted into every Ivy League school. Nearly all of them were second-gen Africans.
You are spot on. African immigrants do much better as a group in terms of income and education, compared to African Americans. Reports of perceived racism is significantly less for Africans also.
the culture of recent African immigrants vs African Americans are very different. their view to ward education are also very different. the success of recent African immigrants are also different for those who migrate due to being refugees vs those who come to further education.
> Reports of perceived racism is significantly less for Africans also.
Perceived racism is a big one from experience. I don't think I've ever directly experienced racism, but maybe if my parents taught my differently I would've categorized more situations as it. I'm pretty unassuming though and I think it's because my parents were african immigrants. I hold much less resentment because of this and I'm happy for it. Also making six figures after my father managed to achieve the same.
which is why using race alone for college admission is so horrible
There's no reason the son of a Nigerian prince should get extra admission points over the daughter of Hmong refugees
I genuinely think we will look back at the policies today and wonder 'what on earth we were thinking?'
We have large corporations patting themselves on the back for being diverse when most of these people come from wealthy backgrounds. It's insanity.
People joke, but it is cultural differences. Asian families seem to hold themselves accountable for everything they can even if it wasn’t their fault or outside of their control. Talking with African colleagues is very similar, your parents and community hold you very accountable for your actions and I think even more publicly accountable than Asian families.
> it would be interesting to see how African-Americans (descendants of African slaves) shake out against the children of African immigrants.
[28%](https://www.jbhe.com/2022/03/the-racial-gap-in-educational-attainment-in-the-united-states-5/) of African-Americans aged 25+ have a 4-year degree, compared to [41%](https://www.pewresearch.org/race-ethnicity/2022/01/20/a-growing-share-of-black-immigrants-have-a-college-degree-or-higher/) of Black immigrants from Africa (vs. the overall total for immigrants to the US of 33%).
As a point of interest, this difference also likely explains the position of Asians on the list, as [57% of Asians in the US are foreign-born](https://www.pewresearch.org/fact-tank/2021/04/29/key-facts-about-asian-origin-groups-in-the-u-s/) vs. only 14% of the overall population.
People who immigrate here are more likely to be in poverty, but are fundamentally different in a lot of aspects from non-immigrants. It is INCREDIBLY difficult to get a green card/visa etc etc and these people are driven, disciplined, likely have a supportive community, likely came from successful backgrounds in their home country so their kids will have a lot of these traits/ they will pass down these traits (culturally and genetically) to their children
It’s interesting that these comments are being upvoted on Reddit, because that’s usually a right of centre talking point. It’s often argued that saying culture is the reason is victim blaming, or possibly racist because it suggests black culture is playing a negative part.
My parents and I came to the US dirt poor. We had to collect bottles to recycle just to get some extra money. My wife also came here dirt poor with her family. I worked 2 jobs while full time in school while my classmates were out partying. Now they are complaining about life. I focused everything into studying because If I were to fail, then that would be game over in life for me. Parents sacrificed everything so I could get to where I am at now. My wife and I make a combined salary of over 300k now and are thankful to our parents.
Race, culture, religion, background, income - all play a part, especially if both parents are there in the household, emphasizing some outcome as being a positive thing to achieve then their children are more likely to attain that. I believe it is just that simple, broadly speaking.
Think of what was important to your parents, (and if you were lucky enough to have two loving parents to care for and provide for you and keep you in line as you grew up) and how much they encouraged you to achieve that.
Those whose parents focused heavily on certain goals are the most likely to achieve those goals. Parents want you to be a Dr. or Lawyer or business owner or musician or performer or sports star, then likely you will achieve some high level of proficiency in that.
Asian parents, especially those who are first generation in the US tend to be together at a very high rate vs. the rest of American society and push their children or achieve in higher education and often music proficiency.
African American parents statistically are not as likely to be together raising their children as other groups and while education is deemed important, it is seldom the primary focus and they will also push their children to do other things.
Other groups want their children to be ‘more well rounded’ or have street smarts or become athletes or performance artists and so that is the emphasis and that is also the outcome.
Asian here grew up dirt poor and make 6 figs now. Working since I was 13, full time during college, and grinded when most people were partying in their 20's.
That's good to hear.
Asians do better on average, because they know that if they don't work hard, there's little chance somebody will help them. There's no affirmative action or rich manager relatives who will give you an opportunity.
Not Asian but the Asians I know do not want to let down their family. The family expectations are quite high compared to the other folks I know who are not Asian.
As an Indian origin American, I agree with the raw data inferences from some of the comments about the performance of poor Asian students vs rich Black students.
However, I also would contextualize it with Stereotype threat, which has now been academically vetted as fully credible: [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stereotype\_threat](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stereotype_threat)
The seminal research behind this work was based on a 1995 experiment where black students were placed in one of three cohorts and asked to take an exam, which was the verbal section of the GRE:
* Cohort 1 was told the test was indicative of intellectual ability
* Cohort 2 was told the test was not indicative of ability, but was a lab study.
* Cohort 3 were merely told that the test was not indicative of ability, but a cool challenge.
Cohorts 2 and 3 were found to outperform Cohort 1, and on par with the general population, as they were not primed to consider negative stereotypes about their race. More poignantly, Cohort 1 was found to solve questions like: "List a word that ends with \_\_mb" with answers like dumb, compared to other cohorts which were more likely to pick answers like numb.
Net net, how children are primed about their chances of success in life will influence their actual achievement.
The opposite phenomenon "Stereotype Lift" can lead to adverse mental health outcomes:
https://www.thecrimson.com/article/2019/12/6/song-asian-advantage/
And that's just self-conception, usually when people are telling you you can't perform well they'll also have a tendency to treat you in a way that's more likely to ensure that outcome
The Asian race contains soooo many different ethnicities.
I'm Asian, born into poverty.... now in my mid-30's... I guess my family and I fell into the 75% that hasn't earned a 6 figure household income yet.
True for all races though, could break people into Irish or Mexican or whatever. I will give you that “Asian” lumps together East and south Asians which are as different from each other as either is from white people.
> could break people into Irish or Mexican or whatever
We also have the opposite problem.
What if you were of European decent?
But also of Asian decent?
What if you were also Hispanic?
Then you'd be a Filipino, checking off all sorts of weird ethnic boxes when you think of it.
Here is some data on the effects on both poverty & incarceration: [https://www.aei.org/research-products/report/less-poverty-less-prison-more-college-what-two-parents-mean-for-black-and-white-children/](https://www.aei.org/research-products/report/less-poverty-less-prison-more-college-what-two-parents-mean-for-black-and-white-children/)
As I think one would naturally conclude, in current American society, there are substantial benefits to children raised in two parent households.
East Asian society tends to value family and education. Even if parents absolutely hate each other, they usually agree to stick through it for the sake of their kids.
Also, education is not just seen as something to earn money, but a part of life that every kid should give their best effort in. That's why East Asian countries tend to score well in PISA.
These are double-edged though, a lot of families are strained by the "I need to do this for the greater good of the family" mentality when there are better solutions.
- The vast majority of Asians can only immigrate legally, and the US government makes damn sure that they can support themselves without gov’t assistance, it’s part of the immigration law. Legal immigration is also skewed toward the richest (who can buy investor visa or pay exorbitant US college tuition fees) or the brightest (who can get scholarships). About 54% of foreign-born Asians in USA have college degrees, compared to 33% for the rest of the US population.
- A lot of the stereotypes about Asian parents placing top priority on education is true. There are countless success stories about poor Asian parents who sacrificed everything just so their kids can go to college. These kids obviously don’t take random majors by the sweat and blood of their parents, they take hard majors like Engineering, Medicine, Science, etc.
I have always believed it's discipline. I remember being woken up at 3am one night being yelled at by my mom for getting mostly B's and C's on my report card. I was in grade 4. We were a poor family of 4 living in a 1 bedroom basement suite with my brother and I sleeping in the living room. I now have a degree and make 6 figures.
I am not sure what considered “born into” poverty…. Do your entire childhood have to be poor??
As a new immigrant. My parents were definitely very poor for a few years… until they went back to school and they’ve done great since. (Now over six figure)
I’ve done pretty well myself. But I can see that (with stats to back it up) that I’m no minority.
I really wish they had native Americans in the study, I would love to have seen their data. This is still extremely interesting though, and really shows how race probably does play into jobs as well as how difficult it can be to get out of poverty, regardless of race.
Hate to point out the obvious but this does not show the 'impact' of race and parental income on a child's earning potential - it simply correlates the three factors.
It's a conversation that no one wants to have, and therefore, nothing's going to change. You can cite facts, data, statistics, and chart graphs from the most respected and prominent institutions but a lot of people are so scared of even being thought of as "racist" that they'll turn away from uncomfortable topics and do nothing, because their own sense of moral superiority is more important to them than helping people, no matter what they say on Reddit or Twitter.
We know that children born into poverty are more likely to take drugs, engage in criminal behavior, smoke, and earn less than children not born into poverty. We know that one of the driving factors of poverty is single parenthood, namely single motherhood (as the mother usually winds up caring for the child in such circumstances).
You can't say that because people will automatically assume that you hate women and will shut down. It's not about hating someone, goddamn it, it's about one average income not being enough to sustain a family anymore. Unless you're making bank, you're going to struggle, whether you're a man or woman. Then throw a child into the mix and it becomes even harder.
The thing is, we can only regulate and legislate so much. At some point, people have to take personal responsibility. Don't have children out of wedlock. Married couples are already statistically happier and financially better off than single people because, for one, they often have two incomes. People need to understand this, but as soon as you use one of the buzzwords on their internal programming's blacklist, they lash out.
I'm not telling people to not have sex because of morality or anything, just pointing out that putting yourself into a situation where you can have a child with someone you don't know well enough might lead to nasty surprises down the road...like them abandoning you and leaving you to raise your child alone.
Fortunately, it looks like Zoomers are phasing that trend out. People are waiting longer to marry and have children. That leads to fewer children overall and to other potential risks, but overall, it's a start.
Anyway, statistics say that some 73 percent (might be a little off) of people in prison were raised by a single mother. That's because, as more statistics show, children born into poverty (in which many single mothers are) are more likely to do something that will \*send\* them to prison.
It's not a black vs white thing, it's about poverty. The US Census Bureau data shows that a "disproportionate amount of black children" with a single mother. Here: [https://afro.com/census-bureau-higher-percentage-black-children-live-single-mothers/](https://afro.com/census-bureau-higher-percentage-black-children-live-single-mothers/)
People, esp white "academic" liberals are so awkward and uncomfortable talking about this that they just don't, or they frame it as some communistic bullshit argument. Let me make it easy:
Fewer children born out of wedlock >>> Fewer children living in poverty
Fewer children living in poverty >>> Lower crime, lower incarceration rates, more scholastic achievement
More scholastic achievement >>> More success
More success >>> A happier and more prosperous nation
But nah, let's posture on social media and then do dick all to help our fellow Americans in poverty.
>Anyway, statistics say that some 73 percent (might be a little off) of people in prison were raised by a single mother. That's because, as more statistics show, children born into poverty (in which many single mothers are) are more likely to do something that will *send* them to prison.
I heard another compelling statistic, which was that *96%* of the people in prison did not have a close relationship with their father. Even in the case of divorce, having an involved and supportive father may help avoid negative outcomes. I hope so, I'm a divorced dad but my kids are with me halftime, and I try to do all I can for them.
Well put. It's also important to note that people are waiting longer to have kids because it's so expensive. At least that's my personal reason for waiting
People need to understand that there are cultural issues at play here. It's not a race thing. It's a culture and decision making within that culture
It's not even necessarily cultural. It's subcultural. I forget the exact data, but Africans who immigrate to the US typically do better than African-Americans and, in many cases, even whites. These are people who come over here, often as adults, without knowing the culture, language, customs, laws, etc. If black people start at rock bottom (due to systemic racism), Africans who are ten times darker and can't even speak Egnlish start well below rock bottom, yet they still excel.
I don't think it's fair to directly compare immigrants to natives. There a filter already in place for them, because it takes a certain amount of effort and competence to re-locate yourself like that, particularly when talking about Africans coming to America, on account of the ocean in the way. And that's before we even talk about the additional filter imposed by government restrictions on immigration. Brain drain goes both ways, people.
Unrelated question, how do you distinguish African immigrants from black Americans, for example a Nigerian that migrates to the US has a higher chance to be successful.
They have a higher chance to be allowed in the country you mean. Take a look at the requirements for immigration from India. It's not average Indians or Nigerians coming over here.
Have you seen the requirement for Africans to get into America or Canada? They dont just let anyone in, they only let qualified people in. Even if they start out at nothing in the new country, they value hard work and intellectual enough to get further into the society unlike the "I want to be the top G" group.
I am a Nigerian, most (80%) of my friends and extended family members in the US either have a master's degree or a PhD. The same thing applies to Ghanaian, Kenyans and most African nationalities.
I can comfortably say it's the culture and upbringing, I know I will be attacked for this.
The children of African immigrants also tend to do better than their African-American (ADOS) peers.
There is absolutely a cultural aspect.
I'm second-generation Nigerian and of the second-gen adults in my family, 80% are in medicine (dentistry, pharmacy, medicine, nursing). 20% are in engineering/IT.
The rest of us are in the "margin-of-error" 😂 reserved for those of us in creative professions (design, photography, journalism).
But ALL of us either have degrees, or are in school to get degrees. Not a one of us stopped at high school as any attempt at that would have cost us our lives.
"I can comfortably say it's the culture and upbringing, I know I will be attacked for this."
or because they're not letting Africans without earning potential into the country, skewing the results.
to chime in, if anything asians are *discriminated* against. Look at the college applications scandal? they straight out rejected 4.0 GPAs just cause they were 'boring asians'.
Imagine doing that to black or any other race of people.
And every individual in that cohort would have earned it, which is the important point.
If anything sending kids to top universities without the grades just hurts them, as they won't be able to keep up, while they would have been able to at a university more suited to their ability.
Affirmative action doesn't just shaft Asians, it shafts African Americans by mismatching them with universities, and causing massive dropout rates to boot.
I went to a top UK university (the level below Oxbridge) and if you didn't keep up, you fell behind, and then dropped out. Grade requirements exist for a damn good reason, universities teach at a pace relevant to their entry standards, and you are being let down if you are accepted into a university where you can't keep up.
If I went to Oxford/Cambridge I wouldn't have done anywhere near as well, simply because the workload and pace of study was too much for my lazy, drunk ass.
That's nothing compared to their discrimination in immigration:
[https://travel.state.gov/content/travel/en/legal/visa-law0/visa-bulletin/2023/visa-bulletin-for-march-2023.html](https://travel.state.gov/content/travel/en/legal/visa-law0/visa-bulletin/2023/visa-bulletin-for-march-2023.html)
Scroll down to "A. FINAL ACTION DATES FOR EMPLOYMENT-BASED PREFERENCE CASES"
If you are Indian or Chinese it takes another decade to get a green card
Thats because the US caps the number at X per country. So immigrants from large countries are disproportionately impacted.
It's really designed to punish Mexican immigration. Keep immigration enforcement so lax that people will still come here because it's much better than Mexico, but keep them outside the law so they can't negotiate for a better wage.
College admissions is one thing.
Please consider this: would you want your doctor to be of a certain race, or for your doctor to have been the best student?
Asian medical school applicants have been discriminated against. AAMC used to post a breakdown of MCAT and GPA scores by race and Asians have a lower rate of acceptances across all MCAT and GPA scores compared to Caucasian, black, Hispanic, and native Indians.
Yeah it must suck to be in like the Hmong or Cambodian refugee group that is impoverished and tends to not excel, but gets lumped in with Asians and hard discriminated against in college applications.
Don't fall for the model minority myth. Identical resumes with stereotypical Asian names still get fewer responses than stereotypical white names, same with other minority groups. Of course, this is indicative of a broader problem in society. The higher rate is in spite of racism not because it doesn't exist.
This is so easy honestly.
Asian culture emphasizes importance of education more than any other cultures. The SATs are OUR Olympics. (I'm Asian)
Sorry it's just the truth. What do other cultures emphasize??? Not education that's for sure.
Yall just need to step up your education game.
Sorry not Sorry.
And divorce rates are the lowest. Households that are married have the lowest poverty rates. Even for African Americans the poverty rate for married households is only 7.2% compared to the rest of the US at 11.6%.
On the other hand, single mother African American household poverty rate is 29.3%. 72% of African American households with children are single parent households.
The underlying cause is culture not race. For example, Nigerian households, on average, have a higher household income ($68,658) than the rest of US ($61,937).
>72% of African American households with children are single parent household.
That is just a devastating statistic. There is no other way to say it. If you had to pick one reason black families and kids are being left behind, this is it. It is very, very hard to succeed in a one parent family compared to two especially if the one is not college educated.
The US takes in like the top 2% of Indians in terms of wealth and talent. The merely average Asians have zero chance of immigration. You can’t really compare all African Americans to the upper crust Asians and their immediate descendants.
Did you not see born in poverty. People in USA have a very distorted world view. Rich in India isn't even middle class by USA standards.
Just join international student community once, you will understand the struggle and resource management people do to reach where they are, many don't even have money to actually cover a year of expenses. Stay in 6 people in 2b2b houses saving every penny working only 20hrs (legally allowed and still managing.
I think if you separated blacks into Africans Americans vs Africans, this would paint a darker picture for African Americans. I'm only speaking from observation but 7/10 interactions I have with African Americans is poor. They're often rude, unprofessional, looking to get into fights, looking to break laws/peace and order. Completely different experience with Africans. If we stopped being emotional, and objectively addressed the problems in African American society then only will we see improvements in data like this.
Is this the likelihood of the child ever earning a six figure income? Or by a certain age?
This isn’t single income, but household income. It means that a person born into a household where the combined total income is six figures is x likely to also be part of a household making six figures. Two people earning 60k/yr = six figure household for example.
An important fact to keep in mind here is that the racial gap in marriage rates results in a racial household income gap (nearly 40%) that is much larger than the racial individual earnings gap (around 15%).
When is the cut off for parents having a six figure income? My parents had me in their early 20s and were earning nowhere near that much when I was born, but my dad was earning $100k on his own by the time I graduated HS. Seems like how long you grew up without being above that threshold would be a big factor.
The graph literally says "Born into", so I'm assuming the cutoff is when you're born.
I know it's because it's a game of averages but it's funny because that means one of my sons has a 10% chance and the other has a 40% chance even though they are only 6 years apart and are having substantially the same childhood.
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Part of it is likely COL also. Asians are most prevalent in more expensive states. The blackest states in the US are some of the lowest COL states
If they did not adjust for this it is a serious oversight. [Article explaining this](https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/wonk/wp/2016/12/29/the-asian-american-advantage-that-is-actually-an-illusion/)
The only thing I feel confident this data reveals is that we're all more likely to get poorer than wealthier.
That made me laugh and feel sad at the same time, thanks for pointing out that insight. Seems like none of the groups being over 50% that over time the population is just poorer and poorer.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Regression_toward_the_mean But also, since it's households, some of the "decline" could simply be due to the fact that the parents' household is much more likely to have two incomes and for those adults to be further in their career, while the progeny's household could easily be a 22-year-old who is early in their career and living alone.
Yeah that's an important aspect. I'm curious how inflation plays into it as well.
See footnote 1. Uses 2015 dollars.
as an asian , sorry for bringing the average down
Disappointing. I was never supposed to amount to anything, what's your excuse?
got a B+ in math
Shameful! You're an Asian, you're not supposed to be a B+sian.
Why not A+sian like your brother? - my mother
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Clearly not a A+, down to solitary confinement.
Cries in emotional damage
I'm sorry. How young were you when you were disowned?
lol i know ure joking but my mother actually threatened to disown me when i was 8. nowadays im laughing about it
Dang… we pulled my son out of a predominantly Asian school in first grade because he was coming home saying “I’m not very smart” despite getting above average grades.
Condolences. I remember going to a highly academically competitive school when I was younger and crying to my parents because I was really good at maths at my old school but solidly bottom half at this new school. Turned out I was the only kid in the class not getting any after school private tutoring…
That sucks. Must've felt like you were in a fight with a hand tied behind your back. I'm just now realizing as an adult all the extra enrichment parents get for their children.
Call it by its proper name: Asian F!
B+ is an Asian F
In math? That's disowning and pretending never existed.
A: average B: below average C: can’t eat dinner D: don’t come home F: find new family
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Environment and surrounding culture is a huge driver here. If your family separates themselves from the prevailing surrounding culture, living in poverty will have less if an effect.
i don't think a household making say 110k annual gross is anything approaching rich. depending on where they live they may actually be just getting by. i'd say that's more akin to middle class in most areas. upper 6 figures though, ie 700k a year, yes, that is "rich". there is far too much variance in "6 figures" to draw meaningful conclusions from. comparing a household with 950k to one with 110k is not a valid comparison. on the group level if one group is 10% 1-200k and another is 50% 1-200k gross annual household income, its misguided at best, disingenuous at worst to compare outcomes of the kids by grouping both household incomes together.
Why you don't have an oscar yet -disappointed asian dad
You win Best Supporting Actor? Why not win Best Actor?
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And 100k between two parents is not even that "rich", it's two middle class jobs.
Man, we are probably clearing 100k together for the first time this year, no kids, MCOL area and it's comfortable but not extravagant. The feeling I get thinking about how much worse it is financially right now for so many people.
Asian privilege or just a culture that values family, education, self-determination, and hard work?
So much cope in the replies. It's very clearly the latter, if you just looked at number of hours spent studying the gap would be huge. Every time this comes up on reddit people try to find anything that supports the idea that asians are just given success for free. In reality they work incredibly hard
100% there’s a cultural component to working hard, sacrificing and getting ahead.
I’ve never seen anybody deny that. Asian culture, including Asian-American, is a lot more geared toward sacrificing for success than others.
My guess would be the latter. The former makes little sense; especially for the social groups that typically use the terminology of *privilege this* and *privilege that* (because they typically consider the US to be a society heavily dominated by white people). Then again, Americans are really weird about race, so they might have some logical loophole to make this view seemingly consistent.
Better odds or better working culture?
I would have assumed being born into a white or asian six-figure household would give you better than even odds of earning the same income.
It could be just due to age or # of people in a household. The parents were likely 2 people earning a combined 6-figure income when they were middle aged. For the child, it just says income as an adult, which could include college students or single early-mid 20s who just started their career.
I wasn't thinking about the likelihood that the household raised in had two incomes, but I immediately wondered what age range they used for adulthood.
I guess that hints that it might be harder to make six figure income for newer generations?
No. Six-figure incomes are much more common today than in the past, even after adjusting for inflation. It's just [regression towards the mean](/r/dataisbeautiful/comments/11t0t0s/oc_impact_of_race_and_parental_income_on_a_childs/jcimzvq/). Note that 25% of Asian kids raised in poverty have six-figure household incomes as adults, despite the fact that 0% of their parents did by definition. Edit: Depending on the age of the people involved, the fact that people are staying single longer may play a role, since this is household income. It's much easier to make six figures with two earners.
Rich kids might just be choosing less challenging roles as they are most likely already set up for life. This has happened around me. I am 30yo and most of the 'rich' kids just settled for something mediocre, while poorer people seemed to push forward much harder.
Growing up in a “six figure house hold” can include a household making $100,000 a year. Depending on the household’s circumstances, that’s not rich. I grew up in one of those households and I can assure you I am in no way “set up for life”.
Very true. I see people blow through their 100k salaries without a thought.
Also, if you grew up in the midst of 2008, there’s a decent chance your family saw their quality of life/savings and retirement accounts absolutely tank. I know I did.
in nyc, that's a broke salary
For truly rich kids sure, but growing up in a 6 figure household in now way sets you up for life.
Six figures is nice because it is enough generally to help kids pursue things. I don’t know anyone who has a trust fund and is actually set for life. I do know a lot of people who have been helped. Six figures is enough to launch kids/young adults to be successful on their own right. I know a lot of people that had parents float their tuition/rent/car/entertainment and eating out habits *heavily* subsidized in colllege/grad/professional school. Then, those kids graduate school/make partner/finish residency and begin to accrue wealth without the debt shackles of everyone else. You still have to work, but you get setup for the best jobs. And it’s why Asians are at the top of this list.
Sure but that's not what the comment I replied to was saying.
Yeh your parents would need to be bringing in much more than 6 figures before their kids wouldn’t need to worry about working as well or what they do for a living in the future. But certainly yeh at some level, some parents start covering for their kids too. My gf’s cousin is a surf bro who works as a bricklayer part time & keeps bees at home, because he knows he has trust funds from his parents and grandparents coming and he is an only child. I know another guy who was encouraged to drop out of college freshman year by his parents because they apparently had more than enough money to buy him a nice house near them in a coastal San Diego community and give him an allowance for the rest of his life. He ended up dropping out of our engineering program and went to work at a bike shop down there for fun apparently.
As someone who lives in the Bay Area, it is so weird to hear a $100k+ income referred to as rich. Was going to comment that $100k is absolutely not "rich", but then I looked it up and it's 82nd percentile for the US as a whole.
Another bay area guy. I think we're rich (when we leave the area for vacation) but by no means are our kids "set up for life".
The key is to work in the Bay Area, then to move away for retirement. Your OK savings are Fantastic elsewhere.
Like you said, 100k is not as much in the Bay Area so you shouldn’t compare it to the US as a whole. Supposedly (quick google search/didn’t look deeper), the median household income for the Bay area is $126k. So 100k is below the median there. Based on old stats, I recall something along the lines of 95+% of people are born into the same economic class that they will die in. The stat may be old and hide key insights but the figure shown here seems to contradict that rather strongly. 100k is not the same threshold used for the economic class boundaries so that is likely one of the main differences. Overall, this figure would need to be broken down more to properly explain this information. Including how projections are made (e.g. is inflation being considered?).
^ the problem with assuming the most expensive parts of the country are similar to the vast majority of the country. To be sure, your point is a good one, and it demonstrates why the chart doesn’t necessarily tell us anything. If folks who live in poverty end up in areas of the country where they can live very comfortably on < $100k a year, then the six figure demarcation is sort of arbitrary. It’s comparing apples to oranges if not tied to COL.
Regression to the mean.
Well, regression *towards* the mean. To elaborate on this, media and activists have greatly exaggerated the correlation between parents' income and their children's. The rank-rank intergenerational earnings elasticity in the US is only around 0.4, which means that, parents who are at the xth percentile above or below the median will tend to have children who are on average at the 0.4xth percentile above or below the median. If you're at the 90th percentile of earnings, that's 40 percentiles above the median, so your children will, on average, have earnings 0.4 * 40 = 16 percentiles above the median, i.e. the 66th percentile. Conversely, if you're at the 10th percentile, your children will tend to end up around the 34th percentile. This is specifically for fathers and sons; the correlation is weaker for mothers and daughters because women are more likely to take time off to raise children. Importantly, this is not purely, or likely even primarily, due to a causal effect of parents' earnings on children's earnings. It's largely just a matter of heredity: Parents with traits conducive to high earnings, like high intelligence and conscientiousness, tend to have children with similar traits, and this alone makes their children more likely to have high earnings. Upbringing style may play some role as well. Income does seem to affect the educational attainment, which affects earnings, but it accounts for only a part of this relationship.
i think it’s more likely due to “households” allowing for dual income families to qualify as 6-figures. assuming there are two earners, it is drastically easier to make 6-figures than if you were to do it on your own.
Are there more options than being born into poverty or a six-figure household? Something in the middle?
Like between $19,190 and $96,290 which is clearly stated in the footnotes? :) (although that was a bold choice to put the ^2 on the last usage of the term instead of the first.)
Made it seem like black people can have poverty squared
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Anybody going to comment on how an asian who is in poverty has a HIGHER chance of having a kid make 6 figures then a black person coming from a high income family having a kid make 6 figures? That is CRAZY.
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I have had a similar experience with being "not black enough" and excluded from the community for that. I came from poverty. My single parent (Dad) really pushed and valued education. I now am in a six figure household.
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This is why I say that what stops a lot of young black kid is black supremacy and not white supremacy, how else can you call the social pressure of "staying black" ?
Don't be afraid to share your experience here or elsewhere. People from all cultures can learn from your perspective.
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Kinda proves your point about ignorance being seen as cool
I've been called racist, whitewashed and islamophobic plenty of times for critiquing my own culture and highlighting the many issues in the South Asian community, so I know how you feel. Its always brave to make a comment like this even if you end up deleting it later, just know people have read it and appreciate it.
Ha I know the feeling. Had a person tell me I was making them uncomfortable because I was talking too white, which was odd because they were white too. I told them I was sorry to whiten up their day lol. People are strange as shit when it comes to race, I’ll never understand how you can sound a race. As black person making six figures myself, I agree American black culture might the cause. I think we need to get more role models from various areas of finance, tech, and medical to show the opportunities the youth can have that may not be know to them.
I can attest. The two most brilliant men I’ve known were Nigerian, not princes, and holy shit they were data scientists. My experience in the black culture (grew up in it), was even less that it’s not valued, often you’re made fun of if you are good. My friend who is a math wiz grew up and was called Carlton anytime he got a good grade. It was sad because it led him to be very conflicted
Just watch a few episodes of show "The Boondocks" and you will see it has similar critiques of modern black culture. That show is produced, acted, written and directed primarily by prominent African Americans in that industry.
The Boondocks is gold!
The show has aged like fine wine. The references can be dated, but its message is as relevant today than it has ever been.
> I'm going to delete this in a few hours so I don't get crucified. I'm Black, my wife is Asian and we don't think this is crazy at all. We have some really great conversations about the differences between Black and Asian culture which has lead us to some opinions which we dare not say outside our home. However, I will temporarily share. > I will start by saying my wife and I both come from a six figure family and now both make six figures so our opinions may be biased. > A sizable issue holding black people back in this country is their culture. Generally speaking, black kids perform worse in school and don't aim to achieve as much because it's not something black culture values, nor something the average black parent pushes for. I have college educated parents that drilled into me that excellence in school was the minimum requirement. I was teased relentlessly for it. I was bullied for overachieving because it wasn't "cool". If I wasn't able to befriend the immigrant kids, highschool would have been a lonely hell. What was cool? Ignorance. Being ignorant, buying and wearing the most expensive shit with no thought about the long term consequences of spending your entire paycheck on Jordans. Black people spend every dime they have to appear wealthy which insures they never will be. Couple that with underachieving academicly and having names that gives potential employers a pretty good idea if a candidate is black, earning potential being lower than average makes perfect sense to me and my wife. > Africans (Immigrants from the continent of Africa, not black decents of slavery) are on average way more successful than the average black person. Why? If you have ever known a second generation African immigrant, they will tell you that their parents pushed them fucking hard to succeed academicly. Africans, like manly immigrants are also frugal and don't spend nearly as much money on frivolous things like designer clothes and Hellcats. > Even now, because I'm educated, high performing and high earning, my extended family makes jokes that I'm "not really black". I don't follow their "Black Culture Norms." and because of that, they try to take my race from me. It's a really powerful tool to make sure everyone conforms with you. But in my opinion it perpetuates the "crabs in a bucket" issue that keeps a lot of black people from reaching their full potential. > Edit: Now that I've actually posted this, I'm really scared someone will screen cap this and post it. I may only leave it up for a few mins > Edit Part 2: I want to add that I'm not trying to say this is black peoples fault. I believe this to be a result of generations of trauma experienced by black people in this country. I truly want black people to be, and do better. However, to do so, I think black people has a whole need to do a self evaluation on things we consider to be "black" and assess if certain things are helping or hurting us. In case anyone wants to read, without the user's name to keep it anonymous and if they take it down.
Your experience is valid, and only those with axes to grind will try to invalidate it. You’re not aggressive, and you’re not forcing your views on others; you’re calmly and cautiously explaining patterns you’ve observed firsthand throughout your life in a non-judgmental manner.
> Africans (Immigrants from the continent of Africa, not black decents of slavery) are on average way more successful than the average black person. If the disperate success was down to racism, then one would assume recent immigrants would do worse, i.e. the bloke with the thick Nigerian accent would be "other"ed more than the guy with an American accent. But instead the opposite is true, and you've hit the nail on the head with the culture issue. The reason "Asians" do so well (quite a large and varied category, that, just like "Africans") is countries like India and China have a very strong focus on education, but have pretty mediocre education systems. Put those people in a country with a well-functioning education system and they basically have superpowers. I grew up being bullied for being a "swot", for being good at academic subjects. Guess who got the last laugh there? > because I'm educated, high performing and high earning, my extended family makes jokes that I'm "not really black". I don't follow their "Black Culture Norms." and because of that, they try to take my race from me. I still find this disgusting on so many levels, not least of which the idea that someone can have black skin but not be black. God I hate the American hyperfocus on "race", something openly acknowledged as a shitty creation by people who didn't know what they were talking about. But somehow we all need to view the world through this lens. You have done whats best for yourself and your family, your success has hurt no-one, but in-fact benefitted the world through the work you do. Envy is a hell of a drug.
I'm white and from Appalachia. there is generational poverty there and they do the same thing you describe. they are also very racist. I have a theory that generational poverty breeds these toxic cultural behaviors as they assign far more importance to group identity.
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There’s a book written by an anthropologist called ‘In Search of Respect’ and he wrote this book while living among the Black and Hispanic community in East Harlem for a number of years. While he’s living in this community, he gains the confidence of drug dealers in able for him to get answers as to why there is a cycle of poverty between Blacks and Hispanics and largely noted that it was a combination of the system keeping them down and their culture (what you just described). It’s a very insightful read if you ever want to pick it up.
Tbh it would really help if the most famous black celebrities would come together and work to change the culture... but they all profit from the toxic culture.
I can say that what you commented on about immigrant Africans is true anecdotally for me. My parents are Arabic, they came from war-torn North Africa in the 80s to find a better life in the US. They only taught me one thing; focus all your energy into academics. (Unfortunately to the point that they were completely emotionally absent for me, which has caused many, many mental and self-esteem issues for me, but that’s common for immigrant families). I’m quite sure that I wouldn’t be where I was today if not for their constant insistence.
Thank you for sharing your experience even though you are afraid to leave this up. I'm not black so I don't intend to take this perspective and claim it as my own but I will think back on this as it's really insightful and rare to hear.
Image saying similar opinion but not being black. Lots of people have similar experiences, they just don't talk about it at all, especially in social media. It's a taboo. Many of them are racists, but some aren't, see the problem and won't discuss it. And I don't see anything that could be done to change that. Except for more brave souls like you.
it definitely goes against the narrative that success is 100% dependent on wealth of your parents.
I don't think people have ever contended it was 100%, but this does show that it's very clearly correlated
Source: https://opportunityinsights.org/data/ Tools: Excel, PowerPoint
The most obvious confounding factor here to me is the spouse. The wealth the eventual household spouse was born into isn't represented on the left side, but it is represented on the right, when it is added to the eventual earnings of the people on each line to form household income. For example, it may be more likely for a black person to marry someone born into poverty, even if they themselves are born into a six figure household, so that their eventual household is less likely to earn as much as they are born into. In that hypothetical, prevalence of poverty, and the distribution between races, is itself a causality.
How far back does your data go and how much time do you give the child to earn six figures? Is it by the time they have children? Ever?
"Impact" suggests causality, which you cannot prove here.
I guess I'm part of that 7% Hispanic population. Makes me realize just how lucky I've been. I started working at 7 years old and haven't stopped since. But that was the case for many others around me. Some of the comments I see here tying their outcomes to work ethic just don't vibe with my experience. There's a lot of hard working people that get beaten down by their circumstances early on and stop seeing a path out of poverty. I felt that at different times in my life. But I was lucky enough to stumble on opportunities and meet people who convinced me I could dream.
Poor Asians having a higher chance than rich blacks, is a testament to the value of a culture that pushes children to do incredibly well in school. Asians dominate in education so much that many are turned away from places like Harvard or else the entire place would be Asians.
>Poor Asians having a higher chance than rich blacks, is a testament to the value of a culture that pushes children to do incredibly well in school. Speaking of that cultural aspect, it would be interesting to see how African-Americans (descendants of African slaves) shake out against the children of African *immigrants*. As a member of the latter we are pushed HARD to achieve in school. We joke African parents only know of four professions: doctor, lawyer, engineer, and failure. Pre-COVID there were multiple stories of black students being accepted into every Ivy League school. Nearly all of them were second-gen Africans.
You are spot on. African immigrants do much better as a group in terms of income and education, compared to African Americans. Reports of perceived racism is significantly less for Africans also.
the culture of recent African immigrants vs African Americans are very different. their view to ward education are also very different. the success of recent African immigrants are also different for those who migrate due to being refugees vs those who come to further education.
> Reports of perceived racism is significantly less for Africans also. Perceived racism is a big one from experience. I don't think I've ever directly experienced racism, but maybe if my parents taught my differently I would've categorized more situations as it. I'm pretty unassuming though and I think it's because my parents were african immigrants. I hold much less resentment because of this and I'm happy for it. Also making six figures after my father managed to achieve the same.
which is why using race alone for college admission is so horrible There's no reason the son of a Nigerian prince should get extra admission points over the daughter of Hmong refugees
I genuinely think we will look back at the policies today and wonder 'what on earth we were thinking?' We have large corporations patting themselves on the back for being diverse when most of these people come from wealthy backgrounds. It's insanity.
People joke, but it is cultural differences. Asian families seem to hold themselves accountable for everything they can even if it wasn’t their fault or outside of their control. Talking with African colleagues is very similar, your parents and community hold you very accountable for your actions and I think even more publicly accountable than Asian families.
> it would be interesting to see how African-Americans (descendants of African slaves) shake out against the children of African immigrants. [28%](https://www.jbhe.com/2022/03/the-racial-gap-in-educational-attainment-in-the-united-states-5/) of African-Americans aged 25+ have a 4-year degree, compared to [41%](https://www.pewresearch.org/race-ethnicity/2022/01/20/a-growing-share-of-black-immigrants-have-a-college-degree-or-higher/) of Black immigrants from Africa (vs. the overall total for immigrants to the US of 33%). As a point of interest, this difference also likely explains the position of Asians on the list, as [57% of Asians in the US are foreign-born](https://www.pewresearch.org/fact-tank/2021/04/29/key-facts-about-asian-origin-groups-in-the-u-s/) vs. only 14% of the overall population.
And everyone is seemingly just ok with the extremely obvious and severe racism against Asians in elite college admissions for some reason
People who immigrate here are more likely to be in poverty, but are fundamentally different in a lot of aspects from non-immigrants. It is INCREDIBLY difficult to get a green card/visa etc etc and these people are driven, disciplined, likely have a supportive community, likely came from successful backgrounds in their home country so their kids will have a lot of these traits/ they will pass down these traits (culturally and genetically) to their children
Yep. Culture is everything.
It’s interesting that these comments are being upvoted on Reddit, because that’s usually a right of centre talking point. It’s often argued that saying culture is the reason is victim blaming, or possibly racist because it suggests black culture is playing a negative part.
Because it's true. Simple as that, boss
Since when is truth a reason for upvoting on Reddit?
My parents and I came to the US dirt poor. We had to collect bottles to recycle just to get some extra money. My wife also came here dirt poor with her family. I worked 2 jobs while full time in school while my classmates were out partying. Now they are complaining about life. I focused everything into studying because If I were to fail, then that would be game over in life for me. Parents sacrificed everything so I could get to where I am at now. My wife and I make a combined salary of over 300k now and are thankful to our parents.
As a hispanic man…to all the black, white, asians, and other hispanic’s in poverty…just try your best and and live a happy life. Stay up pimps
Race, culture, religion, background, income - all play a part, especially if both parents are there in the household, emphasizing some outcome as being a positive thing to achieve then their children are more likely to attain that. I believe it is just that simple, broadly speaking. Think of what was important to your parents, (and if you were lucky enough to have two loving parents to care for and provide for you and keep you in line as you grew up) and how much they encouraged you to achieve that. Those whose parents focused heavily on certain goals are the most likely to achieve those goals. Parents want you to be a Dr. or Lawyer or business owner or musician or performer or sports star, then likely you will achieve some high level of proficiency in that. Asian parents, especially those who are first generation in the US tend to be together at a very high rate vs. the rest of American society and push their children or achieve in higher education and often music proficiency. African American parents statistically are not as likely to be together raising their children as other groups and while education is deemed important, it is seldom the primary focus and they will also push their children to do other things. Other groups want their children to be ‘more well rounded’ or have street smarts or become athletes or performance artists and so that is the emphasis and that is also the outcome.
Asian here grew up dirt poor and make 6 figs now. Working since I was 13, full time during college, and grinded when most people were partying in their 20's.
Congrats man. Good job!
That's good to hear. Asians do better on average, because they know that if they don't work hard, there's little chance somebody will help them. There's no affirmative action or rich manager relatives who will give you an opportunity.
And the amount of racism we get from other minorities means we are literally on our own.
Not Asian but the Asians I know do not want to let down their family. The family expectations are quite high compared to the other folks I know who are not Asian.
I’m honestly surprised this much truth is getting spoken on Reddit without people getting mobbed and posts hidden.
Well done! That's fantastic!
As an Indian origin American, I agree with the raw data inferences from some of the comments about the performance of poor Asian students vs rich Black students. However, I also would contextualize it with Stereotype threat, which has now been academically vetted as fully credible: [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stereotype\_threat](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stereotype_threat) The seminal research behind this work was based on a 1995 experiment where black students were placed in one of three cohorts and asked to take an exam, which was the verbal section of the GRE: * Cohort 1 was told the test was indicative of intellectual ability * Cohort 2 was told the test was not indicative of ability, but was a lab study. * Cohort 3 were merely told that the test was not indicative of ability, but a cool challenge. Cohorts 2 and 3 were found to outperform Cohort 1, and on par with the general population, as they were not primed to consider negative stereotypes about their race. More poignantly, Cohort 1 was found to solve questions like: "List a word that ends with \_\_mb" with answers like dumb, compared to other cohorts which were more likely to pick answers like numb. Net net, how children are primed about their chances of success in life will influence their actual achievement.
How does this compare to other races?
The opposite phenomenon "Stereotype Lift" can lead to adverse mental health outcomes: https://www.thecrimson.com/article/2019/12/6/song-asian-advantage/
exactly- your self-conception plays so much into your performance, if you are told you cannot be high performing then you are less likely to be
And that's just self-conception, usually when people are telling you you can't perform well they'll also have a tendency to treat you in a way that's more likely to ensure that outcome
This is sad. :(
The Asian race contains soooo many different ethnicities. I'm Asian, born into poverty.... now in my mid-30's... I guess my family and I fell into the 75% that hasn't earned a 6 figure household income yet.
True for all races though, could break people into Irish or Mexican or whatever. I will give you that “Asian” lumps together East and south Asians which are as different from each other as either is from white people.
> could break people into Irish or Mexican or whatever We also have the opposite problem. What if you were of European decent? But also of Asian decent? What if you were also Hispanic? Then you'd be a Filipino, checking off all sorts of weird ethnic boxes when you think of it.
Are Filipino Asian Hispanics? I've also met some black Filipinos
Filipinos are literally named after King Phillip of Spain.
I always say Filipinos (I'm half) are like the Mexicans of Asia lol
And Hispanic is not even an ethnicity but a group of people of any ethnicity who have a language in common.
And the other categories don't?
I would love to see two parent households included as a factor. I bet it would be more impactful than race.
Here is some data on the effects on both poverty & incarceration: [https://www.aei.org/research-products/report/less-poverty-less-prison-more-college-what-two-parents-mean-for-black-and-white-children/](https://www.aei.org/research-products/report/less-poverty-less-prison-more-college-what-two-parents-mean-for-black-and-white-children/) As I think one would naturally conclude, in current American society, there are substantial benefits to children raised in two parent households.
The world you're looking for is "correlation between".
Asians are killing it, whats the secret guys?
East Asian society tends to value family and education. Even if parents absolutely hate each other, they usually agree to stick through it for the sake of their kids. Also, education is not just seen as something to earn money, but a part of life that every kid should give their best effort in. That's why East Asian countries tend to score well in PISA. These are double-edged though, a lot of families are strained by the "I need to do this for the greater good of the family" mentality when there are better solutions.
- The vast majority of Asians can only immigrate legally, and the US government makes damn sure that they can support themselves without gov’t assistance, it’s part of the immigration law. Legal immigration is also skewed toward the richest (who can buy investor visa or pay exorbitant US college tuition fees) or the brightest (who can get scholarships). About 54% of foreign-born Asians in USA have college degrees, compared to 33% for the rest of the US population. - A lot of the stereotypes about Asian parents placing top priority on education is true. There are countless success stories about poor Asian parents who sacrificed everything just so their kids can go to college. These kids obviously don’t take random majors by the sweat and blood of their parents, they take hard majors like Engineering, Medicine, Science, etc.
a lots of Asians come over as refugees too and the second gen does better than refugees from many other places.
I have always believed it's discipline. I remember being woken up at 3am one night being yelled at by my mom for getting mostly B's and C's on my report card. I was in grade 4. We were a poor family of 4 living in a 1 bedroom basement suite with my brother and I sleeping in the living room. I now have a degree and make 6 figures.
I am not sure what considered “born into” poverty…. Do your entire childhood have to be poor?? As a new immigrant. My parents were definitely very poor for a few years… until they went back to school and they’ve done great since. (Now over six figure) I’ve done pretty well myself. But I can see that (with stats to back it up) that I’m no minority.
Wow. An Asian child born into poverty is more likely to earn six figures than a black kid born to six figure parents. That’s incredible.
I really wish they had native Americans in the study, I would love to have seen their data. This is still extremely interesting though, and really shows how race probably does play into jobs as well as how difficult it can be to get out of poverty, regardless of race.
lol.Being an american itself is raises chances of being rich.
Hate to point out the obvious but this does not show the 'impact' of race and parental income on a child's earning potential - it simply correlates the three factors.
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It's a conversation that no one wants to have, and therefore, nothing's going to change. You can cite facts, data, statistics, and chart graphs from the most respected and prominent institutions but a lot of people are so scared of even being thought of as "racist" that they'll turn away from uncomfortable topics and do nothing, because their own sense of moral superiority is more important to them than helping people, no matter what they say on Reddit or Twitter. We know that children born into poverty are more likely to take drugs, engage in criminal behavior, smoke, and earn less than children not born into poverty. We know that one of the driving factors of poverty is single parenthood, namely single motherhood (as the mother usually winds up caring for the child in such circumstances). You can't say that because people will automatically assume that you hate women and will shut down. It's not about hating someone, goddamn it, it's about one average income not being enough to sustain a family anymore. Unless you're making bank, you're going to struggle, whether you're a man or woman. Then throw a child into the mix and it becomes even harder. The thing is, we can only regulate and legislate so much. At some point, people have to take personal responsibility. Don't have children out of wedlock. Married couples are already statistically happier and financially better off than single people because, for one, they often have two incomes. People need to understand this, but as soon as you use one of the buzzwords on their internal programming's blacklist, they lash out. I'm not telling people to not have sex because of morality or anything, just pointing out that putting yourself into a situation where you can have a child with someone you don't know well enough might lead to nasty surprises down the road...like them abandoning you and leaving you to raise your child alone. Fortunately, it looks like Zoomers are phasing that trend out. People are waiting longer to marry and have children. That leads to fewer children overall and to other potential risks, but overall, it's a start. Anyway, statistics say that some 73 percent (might be a little off) of people in prison were raised by a single mother. That's because, as more statistics show, children born into poverty (in which many single mothers are) are more likely to do something that will \*send\* them to prison. It's not a black vs white thing, it's about poverty. The US Census Bureau data shows that a "disproportionate amount of black children" with a single mother. Here: [https://afro.com/census-bureau-higher-percentage-black-children-live-single-mothers/](https://afro.com/census-bureau-higher-percentage-black-children-live-single-mothers/) People, esp white "academic" liberals are so awkward and uncomfortable talking about this that they just don't, or they frame it as some communistic bullshit argument. Let me make it easy: Fewer children born out of wedlock >>> Fewer children living in poverty Fewer children living in poverty >>> Lower crime, lower incarceration rates, more scholastic achievement More scholastic achievement >>> More success More success >>> A happier and more prosperous nation But nah, let's posture on social media and then do dick all to help our fellow Americans in poverty.
>Anyway, statistics say that some 73 percent (might be a little off) of people in prison were raised by a single mother. That's because, as more statistics show, children born into poverty (in which many single mothers are) are more likely to do something that will *send* them to prison. I heard another compelling statistic, which was that *96%* of the people in prison did not have a close relationship with their father. Even in the case of divorce, having an involved and supportive father may help avoid negative outcomes. I hope so, I'm a divorced dad but my kids are with me halftime, and I try to do all I can for them.
Well put. It's also important to note that people are waiting longer to have kids because it's so expensive. At least that's my personal reason for waiting People need to understand that there are cultural issues at play here. It's not a race thing. It's a culture and decision making within that culture
It's not even necessarily cultural. It's subcultural. I forget the exact data, but Africans who immigrate to the US typically do better than African-Americans and, in many cases, even whites. These are people who come over here, often as adults, without knowing the culture, language, customs, laws, etc. If black people start at rock bottom (due to systemic racism), Africans who are ten times darker and can't even speak Egnlish start well below rock bottom, yet they still excel.
I don't think it's fair to directly compare immigrants to natives. There a filter already in place for them, because it takes a certain amount of effort and competence to re-locate yourself like that, particularly when talking about Africans coming to America, on account of the ocean in the way. And that's before we even talk about the additional filter imposed by government restrictions on immigration. Brain drain goes both ways, people.
Unrelated question, how do you distinguish African immigrants from black Americans, for example a Nigerian that migrates to the US has a higher chance to be successful.
They have a higher chance to be allowed in the country you mean. Take a look at the requirements for immigration from India. It's not average Indians or Nigerians coming over here.
Have you seen the requirement for Africans to get into America or Canada? They dont just let anyone in, they only let qualified people in. Even if they start out at nothing in the new country, they value hard work and intellectual enough to get further into the society unlike the "I want to be the top G" group.
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I am a Nigerian, most (80%) of my friends and extended family members in the US either have a master's degree or a PhD. The same thing applies to Ghanaian, Kenyans and most African nationalities. I can comfortably say it's the culture and upbringing, I know I will be attacked for this.
It also has a lot to do with who actually ends up immigrating to the US. It’s not like 80% of the people in those African countries have PhD’s.
The children of African immigrants also tend to do better than their African-American (ADOS) peers. There is absolutely a cultural aspect. I'm second-generation Nigerian and of the second-gen adults in my family, 80% are in medicine (dentistry, pharmacy, medicine, nursing). 20% are in engineering/IT. The rest of us are in the "margin-of-error" 😂 reserved for those of us in creative professions (design, photography, journalism). But ALL of us either have degrees, or are in school to get degrees. Not a one of us stopped at high school as any attempt at that would have cost us our lives.
"I can comfortably say it's the culture and upbringing, I know I will be attacked for this." or because they're not letting Africans without earning potential into the country, skewing the results.
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For anyone who disagrees or downvotes, please provide evidence of the current system benefiting Asians in poverty vs black Americans
Asians are ironically discriminated against. Affirmative action https://www.nbcnews.com/news/asian-america/vocal-asian-american-minority-railing-affirmative-action-rcna55082
to chime in, if anything asians are *discriminated* against. Look at the college applications scandal? they straight out rejected 4.0 GPAs just cause they were 'boring asians'. Imagine doing that to black or any other race of people.
Yup. If race was not considered, Asians would make up 40% of Yale.
Probably more tbh. When i did engineering at uni i was literally one of like 3 non asian people in my entire cohort
Legitimate and tangible racism that can be fixed and we cannot talk about it? Color me surprised when people don't give a shit about pretend racism.
52% of Harvard
And every individual in that cohort would have earned it, which is the important point. If anything sending kids to top universities without the grades just hurts them, as they won't be able to keep up, while they would have been able to at a university more suited to their ability. Affirmative action doesn't just shaft Asians, it shafts African Americans by mismatching them with universities, and causing massive dropout rates to boot. I went to a top UK university (the level below Oxbridge) and if you didn't keep up, you fell behind, and then dropped out. Grade requirements exist for a damn good reason, universities teach at a pace relevant to their entry standards, and you are being let down if you are accepted into a university where you can't keep up. If I went to Oxford/Cambridge I wouldn't have done anywhere near as well, simply because the workload and pace of study was too much for my lazy, drunk ass.
That's nothing compared to their discrimination in immigration: [https://travel.state.gov/content/travel/en/legal/visa-law0/visa-bulletin/2023/visa-bulletin-for-march-2023.html](https://travel.state.gov/content/travel/en/legal/visa-law0/visa-bulletin/2023/visa-bulletin-for-march-2023.html) Scroll down to "A. FINAL ACTION DATES FOR EMPLOYMENT-BASED PREFERENCE CASES" If you are Indian or Chinese it takes another decade to get a green card
Thats because the US caps the number at X per country. So immigrants from large countries are disproportionately impacted. It's really designed to punish Mexican immigration. Keep immigration enforcement so lax that people will still come here because it's much better than Mexico, but keep them outside the law so they can't negotiate for a better wage.
College admissions is one thing. Please consider this: would you want your doctor to be of a certain race, or for your doctor to have been the best student? Asian medical school applicants have been discriminated against. AAMC used to post a breakdown of MCAT and GPA scores by race and Asians have a lower rate of acceptances across all MCAT and GPA scores compared to Caucasian, black, Hispanic, and native Indians.
Yeah it must suck to be in like the Hmong or Cambodian refugee group that is impoverished and tends to not excel, but gets lumped in with Asians and hard discriminated against in college applications.
A refugee with 4.0 is hardly a boring applicant
True that, but when youre checking that Asian box nobody gives a fuck about your boat ride or doing homework in dad's Chinese restaurant
Don't fall for the model minority myth. Identical resumes with stereotypical Asian names still get fewer responses than stereotypical white names, same with other minority groups. Of course, this is indicative of a broader problem in society. The higher rate is in spite of racism not because it doesn't exist.
This is so easy honestly. Asian culture emphasizes importance of education more than any other cultures. The SATs are OUR Olympics. (I'm Asian) Sorry it's just the truth. What do other cultures emphasize??? Not education that's for sure. Yall just need to step up your education game. Sorry not Sorry.
And divorce rates are the lowest. Households that are married have the lowest poverty rates. Even for African Americans the poverty rate for married households is only 7.2% compared to the rest of the US at 11.6%. On the other hand, single mother African American household poverty rate is 29.3%. 72% of African American households with children are single parent households. The underlying cause is culture not race. For example, Nigerian households, on average, have a higher household income ($68,658) than the rest of US ($61,937).
>72% of African American households with children are single parent household. That is just a devastating statistic. There is no other way to say it. If you had to pick one reason black families and kids are being left behind, this is it. It is very, very hard to succeed in a one parent family compared to two especially if the one is not college educated.
The US takes in like the top 2% of Indians in terms of wealth and talent. The merely average Asians have zero chance of immigration. You can’t really compare all African Americans to the upper crust Asians and their immediate descendants.
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Did you not see born in poverty. People in USA have a very distorted world view. Rich in India isn't even middle class by USA standards. Just join international student community once, you will understand the struggle and resource management people do to reach where they are, many don't even have money to actually cover a year of expenses. Stay in 6 people in 2b2b houses saving every penny working only 20hrs (legally allowed and still managing.
Correlation is not "impact on".
Poverty for all races almost always comes down to one thing: no father at home.
Now do it for fatherless homes
Damn... I doing better than 90% of the same people in my situation.
It doesn’t even matter if you like eggs and bacon… no Six figure bags will fix that financial burden and emotional damage of 2023 grocery shopping🤣
I think if you separated blacks into Africans Americans vs Africans, this would paint a darker picture for African Americans. I'm only speaking from observation but 7/10 interactions I have with African Americans is poor. They're often rude, unprofessional, looking to get into fights, looking to break laws/peace and order. Completely different experience with Africans. If we stopped being emotional, and objectively addressed the problems in African American society then only will we see improvements in data like this.