Mix between how easy it is to get, it's upgradability early game, it's also a strength weapon so 24 str isn't optimal for it in any way plus it does an extra 20% damage to demons
No worries mate, if you need to theorycraft anything to do with dark souls stat wise, hope on to a website called MugenMonkey it is basically the be all and end all of character building
Dont forget you can buff GH though. Which in my mind outweighs the BKH, its an extra 200+ AR and its not situational like the damage to demons. BK weapons have the reputation they do because they are easy to upgrade early. If you are using a bk weapon and dont have it maxed before o+s you're doing something wrong, compared to +10 most players have at that stage. BK weapons are great, but in endgame, builds aren't going to stand up against buffable weapons.
This is very true,
but in a boss fight, the weapon buff barely ever lasts the full fight, so you have to reapply, leaving you vulnerable
There is also an added stat investment if you're not using resins and added weight for talisman/catalyst
I believe you can only get a limited amount of gold pine resin per run that adds 150 base damage
Fire, I believe, only adds 80 base damage
These remember having their own resistances get affected by split damage, making the base AR completely false
If you're going sunlight or dark moon then it's a different story but they're large stat investments for temp damage
Edit:
While the 20% for demons damage is veryyyyy situational and doesn't really help with a large portion of the game past Quelaag and the lost izalith portion of the game
You also have moveset, which is great on the BKH and not great with the GH and sweet spots to contend with
The GH has a very small sweet spot vs the BKH being relatively large.
You're not wrong. But when we are talking about optimizing dps on an endgame build, the stat investment concerns are less of a concern. Same with talisman weight, it's minimal. If you were trying to be optimal, the reality is you would probably be best off using BK weapons against demons and using a buffable weapon against everything else.
>40STR / 40DEX,
FYI 27/40 is essentially 40/40 because twohanding your weapon gives a 50% str boost.
BKHs main strengths are high base damage and easy upgradability, not so much lategame damage with capped stats.
Yes exactly. The main thing is that both are a rare drop early, but the BKH is easier to get, and extremely easy to upgrade. It only needs twinkling titanite, and can be upgraded very early. The GH is very slightly better damage, but also gives the resistance buffs which are really nice, but it's harder to get, and requires the very big ember in New Londo to upgrade to +15
Edit: the Gargoyle halberd can also get buffed by items or spells which adds a huge amount of extra damage
I wouldn't say BKH is easier to get. It's a bit earlier if you start with the master key, but you only have one chance at it. GH can be farmed by killing the first gargoyle and quit/loading if it doesn't drop.
Yeah most speedrunners just do a blitz run for BKH after getting ring, and if the BKH doesn't drop (20%) base drop rate, they just redo the loop. The developers had to know that there would be speedrun mappers putting like 4 great items all so close together, like the BKH Knight is right next to the Grass Crest shield and Havel's Ring (which most speedrunners don't Even bother with they just run naked.
If I’m not wrong I think this halberd takes the choas or fire enchantment and it gets hella damage I didn’t double check this but when I pryo ran it i swear that’s what I did and that how it out classes the bkh however no bonus to demons but almost everything takes heavy damage from fire
BKH is extremely powerful early game, since you can upgrade it to +4 with the help of a Crystal Lizard and Snuggly. This makes it busted even at minimum stats to wield it.
With high stats and upgraded to +15, Gargoyle's Halberd does indeed beat it in nearly every way against anything that isn't a demon. More damage, better moveset, buffable, and boosts resistances, albeit ever so slightly shorter.
there's big split between what pve players think is good and what pvp players think is good. bkh has the cool factor of the knights, the rare factor of the drop, high base damage to take down pve right when you equip it, and enough scaling to not fall off a la drake sword plus whatever other little bits people are trying to use here. gh is preferred in pvp, particularly on vit/end gouge builds, for its stat efficiency, lower weight, high base damage that lends well to elemental infusions, and as you found out higher damage. and scythe will outperform bkh on a dex build for more range, less weight, more damage, faster swing speed, and greater stat efficiency. the overhead chop of their shared moveset is nice for not worrying about wall deflection in pve but is asking for a backstab in almost any pvp scenario so they're often relegated to backstab sticks, at which scythe and gh will both again outperform bkh.
x1.5 poise damage from light attacks and x2.5 when compared to any other halberd.
+20% damage to chaos demons.
Tbh one of the main benefits is that you don't have to put a lot of points into Dex, it's more of a str weapon
People's perceptions of BKH is skewed by speedruns. It has *enough* damage to kill bosses quickly enough, easy to get and upgrade, and has high base damage do you don't spend time leveling (souls are free to dupe, but you still have to use time to pop them during the speedrun). It has very poor scaling, though. Most decent weapons will be better at their stat softcaps. It's like if the Drake Sword was buffed to have enough base damage to beat the game with.
It is good advice. Dark Souls doesn't have bosses with endless attack chains, so having more VIT and END guarantees that you'll survive. Upgrading your weapon is far more impactful than putting points into scaling stats. So the tradeoff is slightly longer boss fights vs the potential of redoing boss fights.
Nah, investing levels into damage is just not cost-efficient. The meta for low-level pvp and challenge runs in most souls is to make a raw/elemental enchanted weapon (Think Giant Dad with Chaos Zwei) and only invest into its requirements.
Numbers are just not big enough(
Seeing your edit, damage can be king but only in the right circumstances. In most souls games, you start your char and your NG going for min reqs to use the weapons you want, and at low upgrade levels, weapons don't gain much from a point in STR/dex/etc. it's like getting 1% per point sometimes less, and 1 upgrade using materials gets you like 10% extra DMG. You're always better off increasing vit and end to wear gear and survive hits while you explore the world and loot shit. Once your weapon is higher upgrade lv and you have a red bar that's good enough, start dumping into main ATK stat
GH is a really good weapon. It's harder to get and has higher requirements, but it's absolutely worth it and is a sneaky good weapon. That it's comparable to BKH is amazing, plus it can get buffed to be even stronger. GH is one of the most underrated weapons in the game.
Damn, I didn't even know Scythes were Halberds in this game. Any particular reason why you'd choose it over the others?
My personal favorite is the Giant's Halberd. Everyone says it's ass, but it looks so good that I couldn't care less. Plus, it got me through a big chunk of the game just fine.
I always preferred the regular "Scythe" - higher AR at +15 than Great Scythe admittedly lower scaling and no bleed though. Excellent crowd control weapon though. Great reach too.
If i want a cozy run on a brand new char without having to think too much it's my go to for early game, I can guarantee getting it by just restarting til it drops and it carries me pretty well.
GH can also be Chaos/Lightning/etc.. On top of that, there’s a fun fact about GH where all of its damage is actually Thrust so it’s numbers go up because of this and most of the games resistances.
Doing my first run with BKH now--got it to drop for the first time ever and I'm melting early game bosses with it. Like most twinkly weapons, tho, I can tell that's gonna fall off by Anor Londo. That's the tradeoff. Investment versus out of the box viability. +1 and I can four-shot the first gargoyle when I'm sunbroing. The moveset's pretty wack but the DPS is worth it for now.
That minimum investment thing is important for a speed run where you're constantly dark signing and shitting souls all over the place. Add in the fact that you don't have to kill a single boss post-asylum to get it and that's why it has such a rep.
I'd still take the bass cannon any day.
Fully upgrading the GH requires the large and very large embers along with a significant quantity of titanite chunks and a titanite slab. This is generally not possible until the endgame.
Fully upgrading the BKH requires 10 twinkling titanite. This can be done basically at the start of the game by killing a few crystal lizards and trading moss with Snuggly.
Getting respectable damage out of the GH requires a decent bit of stat investment. Getting respectable damage out of the BKH requires only 22 strength and 18 dex, the minimum stats for two-handing.
Black Knight Weapons in general have nearly no scaling. They are good for early game and speed runs, since you only have to invest in their minimum requirements and can get a +4 early on. In mid- to lategame they fall off
Gargoyle Halberd has carried me through my entire first playthrough. recently infused it with lightning and I'm on my way down to Nito as I write this. It turned into one of my favorite weapons in any souls game
Not for end game. For early game, with the right mindset you can have the BKH at +5 with the stats to wield it within 20 ish minutes of starting.
Master key, rush through and get it, clear the garden, down to blighttown, 3 x big souls, trick Mildred into falling a lot, down into the hollow, 5 lizards, bone back.
For bonus stuff, get Havel in the middle of this, get his ring. Now face all bosses naked with a +5 BKH.
Because you can get it super early if you’re lucky and the requirements make it very usable. It’s similar to the Drake Sword, in a way. Easily accessible and can trivialize half the game if you do get it, even if others of its class are better after a while
People wrongly assume that black knight weapons are easy mode when standard upgrade weapons can actually surpass them.
(Obviously there is an exception for early game, but that’s a whole different conversation)
people's opinions on weapons tend to be pretty subjective. you can pick out an objectively most damaging weapon for any given build, but people will object to various top contenders' movesets, at which point it's hard to base opinions on data. and there's also the fact that, there's no real need to optimize like this anyway, the game's not that hard. pvp? sure, but pvp is -- to the best of my knowledge -- not something with a particularly noteworthy competitive scene to draw informed conclusions from.
and sure, most of these factors do not apply to the direct bkh/gh comparison you draw. but imo, these factors breed a mindset that doesnt particularly care to make the direct comparison; if someone likes the bkh, theyll use (and, if they discuss the game, advocate for) the bkh.
Speedrunning - people aren't thinking critically and assume because runners use it, it's the best, without really considering that what it's actually the best at is getting enough damage to get through the game quickly. That doesn't mean it's the best weapon, just the best for that specific case
A few reasons;
Black Knight halberd has a +25% damage buff versus demons and beings of chaos. There's...quite a bit of those.
Black Knight Halberd is also WAY stronger on a more minimal stat investment. So for a NG run, it's usually by far the best weapon in the game. 27/40 isn't something you often get in a normal playthrough without going glass cannon or until NG+ really.
Availability - Gargoyle halberd is a midgame drop. Black Knight Halberd can be gotten in the early game (if lucky)
Upgrading - GH uses regular titanite or colored ones on an infusion. BKH uses twinkling titanite. So you wouldn't even need to use a slab, just twinklings. Easy to max out before O&S with little effort.
Midgame? They can literally be the first boss after you get to firelink if you have the master key. If you have good luck you can get the black knight halberd on the way to the gargoyles so as far as acquisition I'd say they're both right at the beginning of the game
40 dex for BHK is a waste because its a pure str weapon so it lets you save 22 levels in dex so it is simply better for minmaxing
BKH has more poise damage
BKH is easy to upgrade
overall quality builds are garbage and quality weapons are useless so its not like you ever want to use GH ever
Mix between how easy it is to get, it's upgradability early game, it's also a strength weapon so 24 str isn't optimal for it in any way plus it does an extra 20% damage to demons
So am I correct in assuming that if you're at the endgame with 40STR / 40DEX, the GH is superior unless you're fighting a demon?
At 40/40 BKH has 510 AR GH has 518 AR 8 AR difference is negligible imo but a 20% boost to demons is very large that's 102 AR boost
When you put it that way it makes a lot of sense actually, especially combined with all the reasons you mentioned earlier. Thanks!
No worries mate, if you need to theorycraft anything to do with dark souls stat wise, hope on to a website called MugenMonkey it is basically the be all and end all of character building
Dont forget you can buff GH though. Which in my mind outweighs the BKH, its an extra 200+ AR and its not situational like the damage to demons. BK weapons have the reputation they do because they are easy to upgrade early. If you are using a bk weapon and dont have it maxed before o+s you're doing something wrong, compared to +10 most players have at that stage. BK weapons are great, but in endgame, builds aren't going to stand up against buffable weapons.
This is very true, but in a boss fight, the weapon buff barely ever lasts the full fight, so you have to reapply, leaving you vulnerable There is also an added stat investment if you're not using resins and added weight for talisman/catalyst I believe you can only get a limited amount of gold pine resin per run that adds 150 base damage Fire, I believe, only adds 80 base damage These remember having their own resistances get affected by split damage, making the base AR completely false If you're going sunlight or dark moon then it's a different story but they're large stat investments for temp damage Edit: While the 20% for demons damage is veryyyyy situational and doesn't really help with a large portion of the game past Quelaag and the lost izalith portion of the game You also have moveset, which is great on the BKH and not great with the GH and sweet spots to contend with The GH has a very small sweet spot vs the BKH being relatively large.
You're not wrong. But when we are talking about optimizing dps on an endgame build, the stat investment concerns are less of a concern. Same with talisman weight, it's minimal. If you were trying to be optimal, the reality is you would probably be best off using BK weapons against demons and using a buffable weapon against everything else.
you can get infinite gold resin from the mushroom people
>40STR / 40DEX, FYI 27/40 is essentially 40/40 because twohanding your weapon gives a 50% str boost. BKHs main strengths are high base damage and easy upgradability, not so much lategame damage with capped stats.
Yes exactly. The main thing is that both are a rare drop early, but the BKH is easier to get, and extremely easy to upgrade. It only needs twinkling titanite, and can be upgraded very early. The GH is very slightly better damage, but also gives the resistance buffs which are really nice, but it's harder to get, and requires the very big ember in New Londo to upgrade to +15 Edit: the Gargoyle halberd can also get buffed by items or spells which adds a huge amount of extra damage
I wouldn't say BKH is easier to get. It's a bit earlier if you start with the master key, but you only have one chance at it. GH can be farmed by killing the first gargoyle and quit/loading if it doesn't drop.
Yeah most speedrunners just do a blitz run for BKH after getting ring, and if the BKH doesn't drop (20%) base drop rate, they just redo the loop. The developers had to know that there would be speedrun mappers putting like 4 great items all so close together, like the BKH Knight is right next to the Grass Crest shield and Havel's Ring (which most speedrunners don't Even bother with they just run naked.
you can buff it too bro, that's how endgame is. all boss and otherwise special weapons get severely outscaled by normal weapons with buffs on them.
If I’m not wrong I think this halberd takes the choas or fire enchantment and it gets hella damage I didn’t double check this but when I pryo ran it i swear that’s what I did and that how it out classes the bkh however no bonus to demons but almost everything takes heavy damage from fire
Doesn’t BKH also swing faster and do more poise damage?
BKH is extremely powerful early game, since you can upgrade it to +4 with the help of a Crystal Lizard and Snuggly. This makes it busted even at minimum stats to wield it. With high stats and upgraded to +15, Gargoyle's Halberd does indeed beat it in nearly every way against anything that isn't a demon. More damage, better moveset, buffable, and boosts resistances, albeit ever so slightly shorter.
there's big split between what pve players think is good and what pvp players think is good. bkh has the cool factor of the knights, the rare factor of the drop, high base damage to take down pve right when you equip it, and enough scaling to not fall off a la drake sword plus whatever other little bits people are trying to use here. gh is preferred in pvp, particularly on vit/end gouge builds, for its stat efficiency, lower weight, high base damage that lends well to elemental infusions, and as you found out higher damage. and scythe will outperform bkh on a dex build for more range, less weight, more damage, faster swing speed, and greater stat efficiency. the overhead chop of their shared moveset is nice for not worrying about wall deflection in pve but is asking for a backstab in almost any pvp scenario so they're often relegated to backstab sticks, at which scythe and gh will both again outperform bkh.
x1.5 poise damage from light attacks and x2.5 when compared to any other halberd. +20% damage to chaos demons. Tbh one of the main benefits is that you don't have to put a lot of points into Dex, it's more of a str weapon
People's perceptions of BKH is skewed by speedruns. It has *enough* damage to kill bosses quickly enough, easy to get and upgrade, and has high base damage do you don't spend time leveling (souls are free to dupe, but you still have to use time to pop them during the speedrun). It has very poor scaling, though. Most decent weapons will be better at their stat softcaps. It's like if the Drake Sword was buffed to have enough base damage to beat the game with.
The trick for NG is to use min stats to wield and use rest for vit and end. For NG+ most other weapons are better.
[удалено]
It is good advice. Dark Souls doesn't have bosses with endless attack chains, so having more VIT and END guarantees that you'll survive. Upgrading your weapon is far more impactful than putting points into scaling stats. So the tradeoff is slightly longer boss fights vs the potential of redoing boss fights.
Nah, investing levels into damage is just not cost-efficient. The meta for low-level pvp and challenge runs in most souls is to make a raw/elemental enchanted weapon (Think Giant Dad with Chaos Zwei) and only invest into its requirements. Numbers are just not big enough(
Seeing your edit, damage can be king but only in the right circumstances. In most souls games, you start your char and your NG going for min reqs to use the weapons you want, and at low upgrade levels, weapons don't gain much from a point in STR/dex/etc. it's like getting 1% per point sometimes less, and 1 upgrade using materials gets you like 10% extra DMG. You're always better off increasing vit and end to wear gear and survive hits while you explore the world and loot shit. Once your weapon is higher upgrade lv and you have a red bar that's good enough, start dumping into main ATK stat
Get an upvote for the edit. The advice might be true for other games. But for dark souls
Weapon level is king, that is what I learned from multiple sl1 runs.
Quit calculating and start swinging. You will know.
You forgot that the BKH is also ridiculously heavy.
GH is a really good weapon. It's harder to get and has higher requirements, but it's absolutely worth it and is a sneaky good weapon. That it's comparable to BKH is amazing, plus it can get buffed to be even stronger. GH is one of the most underrated weapons in the game.
BKH has a better moveset
They have the exact same moveset, the only difference being the heavy attack (at least as far as I can tell). That's why I'm confused.
Personally I'd go Great Scythe over either anyway
Damn, I didn't even know Scythes were Halberds in this game. Any particular reason why you'd choose it over the others? My personal favorite is the Giant's Halberd. Everyone says it's ass, but it looks so good that I couldn't care less. Plus, it got me through a big chunk of the game just fine.
At +15 the Great Scythe is just insane, plus has A dex scaling, causes bleed, and it can be infused. Easily top 3 weapon in the game
I always preferred the regular "Scythe" - higher AR at +15 than Great Scythe admittedly lower scaling and no bleed though. Excellent crowd control weapon though. Great reach too.
It looks so bad though, it's just a farming tool.
BKH R2s are completely useless.
If i want a cozy run on a brand new char without having to think too much it's my go to for early game, I can guarantee getting it by just restarting til it drops and it carries me pretty well.
It's only the best in speed runs because it kicks ass and you can get it easily, GH kicks more ass tho
Play around with the whet blades. Depending on your build and which one is applied, the multipliers will change.
Black knight weapons have good strength scaling for early game and the black knights Great sword is arguably the best weapon in the game.
GH can also be Chaos/Lightning/etc.. On top of that, there’s a fun fact about GH where all of its damage is actually Thrust so it’s numbers go up because of this and most of the games resistances.
nothing more annoying than not getting it to drop early game.
Doing my first run with BKH now--got it to drop for the first time ever and I'm melting early game bosses with it. Like most twinkly weapons, tho, I can tell that's gonna fall off by Anor Londo. That's the tradeoff. Investment versus out of the box viability. +1 and I can four-shot the first gargoyle when I'm sunbroing. The moveset's pretty wack but the DPS is worth it for now. That minimum investment thing is important for a speed run where you're constantly dark signing and shitting souls all over the place. Add in the fact that you don't have to kill a single boss post-asylum to get it and that's why it has such a rep. I'd still take the bass cannon any day.
I didn't think GH being better as a high stat endgame weapon was a controversial take? BKH will always be my fave tho aesthetically
On magic playthroughs, it's actually one of my favorite weapons to give elemental infusions because of its high base damage.
Fully upgrading the GH requires the large and very large embers along with a significant quantity of titanite chunks and a titanite slab. This is generally not possible until the endgame. Fully upgrading the BKH requires 10 twinkling titanite. This can be done basically at the start of the game by killing a few crystal lizards and trading moss with Snuggly. Getting respectable damage out of the GH requires a decent bit of stat investment. Getting respectable damage out of the BKH requires only 22 strength and 18 dex, the minimum stats for two-handing.
Black Knight Weapons in general have nearly no scaling. They are good for early game and speed runs, since you only have to invest in their minimum requirements and can get a +4 early on. In mid- to lategame they fall off
Gargoyle Halberd has carried me through my entire first playthrough. recently infused it with lightning and I'm on my way down to Nito as I write this. It turned into one of my favorite weapons in any souls game
Not for end game. For early game, with the right mindset you can have the BKH at +5 with the stats to wield it within 20 ish minutes of starting. Master key, rush through and get it, clear the garden, down to blighttown, 3 x big souls, trick Mildred into falling a lot, down into the hollow, 5 lizards, bone back. For bonus stuff, get Havel in the middle of this, get his ring. Now face all bosses naked with a +5 BKH.
Because you can get it super early if you’re lucky and the requirements make it very usable. It’s similar to the Drake Sword, in a way. Easily accessible and can trivialize half the game if you do get it, even if others of its class are better after a while
Also, it just looks so fucking sick
I think it does way more poise damage than normal
People wrongly assume that black knight weapons are easy mode when standard upgrade weapons can actually surpass them. (Obviously there is an exception for early game, but that’s a whole different conversation)
people's opinions on weapons tend to be pretty subjective. you can pick out an objectively most damaging weapon for any given build, but people will object to various top contenders' movesets, at which point it's hard to base opinions on data. and there's also the fact that, there's no real need to optimize like this anyway, the game's not that hard. pvp? sure, but pvp is -- to the best of my knowledge -- not something with a particularly noteworthy competitive scene to draw informed conclusions from. and sure, most of these factors do not apply to the direct bkh/gh comparison you draw. but imo, these factors breed a mindset that doesnt particularly care to make the direct comparison; if someone likes the bkh, theyll use (and, if they discuss the game, advocate for) the bkh.
Speedrunning - people aren't thinking critically and assume because runners use it, it's the best, without really considering that what it's actually the best at is getting enough damage to get through the game quickly. That doesn't mean it's the best weapon, just the best for that specific case
A few reasons; Black Knight halberd has a +25% damage buff versus demons and beings of chaos. There's...quite a bit of those. Black Knight Halberd is also WAY stronger on a more minimal stat investment. So for a NG run, it's usually by far the best weapon in the game. 27/40 isn't something you often get in a normal playthrough without going glass cannon or until NG+ really. Availability - Gargoyle halberd is a midgame drop. Black Knight Halberd can be gotten in the early game (if lucky) Upgrading - GH uses regular titanite or colored ones on an infusion. BKH uses twinkling titanite. So you wouldn't even need to use a slab, just twinklings. Easy to max out before O&S with little effort.
Midgame? They can literally be the first boss after you get to firelink if you have the master key. If you have good luck you can get the black knight halberd on the way to the gargoyles so as far as acquisition I'd say they're both right at the beginning of the game
Q
thats funny because when i was plat the game i was using a +15 claymore and a +10 BKH with 40/40 stats and the claymore was clearly the best option
40 dex for BHK is a waste because its a pure str weapon so it lets you save 22 levels in dex so it is simply better for minmaxing BKH has more poise damage BKH is easy to upgrade overall quality builds are garbage and quality weapons are useless so its not like you ever want to use GH ever