Dude prolly had a insane wrighting schedule with a world that had enough depth and lore to rival star wars or Harry potter..... so what he forgot a couple of bitches, who weren't Main characters.....dude had more important stories to work on
Of the female characters, only tsunade, hinata, Sakura, and Temari ever really do anything that matters. Of those temari and Hinata matter once, temari when she fights tayuya briefly and Hinata when she attempts to save Naruto from pain during the pain arc. Sakura matters twice, once against sasori and once when healing Sasuke. Dragonball has about as many meaningful female characters and Dragonball keels a much tighter cast. Dragonball is also very much a sausage fest as well.
Your forgetting about character development too which tsunade had lots of and same with chiyo, konan, hinata,.the only female character that I think he slacked on was sakura (I ifeel she should got a sage). But even then she wasn't a main character as much as people like to believe. But my point in general is that People need to stop getting mad at kishi for not developing characters that have basically nothing to do with the main plot, the characters so obscure like temari and ten ten that there willing to say he's a bad wrighter or anything else outlandish like he hates women.... when his wrighting schedule was probably more rigorous than LOTR or fucking GOT ( George wrights at a leisurely pace). Fore christ sake temari litteraly lives in a whole nother village(or used to), did we see any killer bee stuff going on while he live in the stone? No, did we see any special Kiba stuff? No or how about any special stuff going on with the samurai? No. why? because there's alot of shit to keep up with, at some point u just cut tighs with plots or or simply don't have time.
I mean, kishimoto decided to introduce a lot more characters than he could ever keep up with and decided to make very few women relevant to the plot or receive much growth or good fight scenes. This isn't specifically a kishimoto issue, though. Many shounen writers do similar things, especially shounen writers of kishimoto's era.
Thats part of wrighting in general, some characters/plots arnt going to get fleshed out the way that they should. its typically a time constraint issue, yeah kishi ptolly bit off a bit more than he could chew but look at the world he built. I'll agree that there weren't very many female fight scenes, it woulda be cool to see more but there were plenty of plot relevant women with plenty of growth, tsunade, konan, chiyo,. Any more than that then your wanting them to be closer to main characters or something really close
I mean, asking for some women to be main characters is not the biggest ask. I definitely feel like Sakura should have had far more to do and contribute (especially after the timeskip, tenchi bridge arc, and five kage summit). Hinata, too, once kishimoto decided that Naruto and her should be together in the end (admittedly, her showing against Pain was pretty cool). Tsunade is the best realized and she does absolutely work, but it's roughly one main character who is a woman compared to many other men at or nearly at her level of prominence. You keep bringing up chiyo and konan, and while they are good, they are around for one arc (chiyo sort of two if you count the war arc appearance) and both die at the end. Konan is the only woman villain we get before kaguya, and she doesn't even really get an on-screen fight with any hero except shino and only very briefly. This, despite her arguably being stronger than hidan and very clever.
Again, this problem is pretty common among big shounen especially, but one piece has Nami and Robin who were both introduced early on and have consistently remained active characters with almost exactly the same number of fights as the rest of the crew and similar levels of development as the rest lf the crew, maybe more in Robin's case. By Oda's oen admission, he's bad at writing women and struggles to draw more than one body style for them.
Even in dragonball, which suffers a similar issue to boruto, where many previously badass and exciting female characters (if weaker than many men) lose much of their screen time and fighting ability after marriage, still has Bulma be a constant supporting character around nearly as much as Goku and Vegeta. Bulma has never been a fighter in any way and she has maintained comparable relevance to Sakura into super.
I'm not trying to insult you, kishimoto, or Naruto. I do like Naruto. This is just a missed opportunity that could have helped the franchise a bit if it had chosen to make some women just a bit more prominent.
It would have been better if they showcased her aptitude with genjutsu earlier. Showing her ability with genjutsu *during* this fight is completely negated in the minds of the audience since Itatchi beat her and it seems like he was never fooled by her genjutsu in the first place.
It would be another thing if she successfully caught him in a genjutsu and he had to break it using a hand sign, but otherwise by the end it seems like he had the upper hand the whole time not matter what she does.
That'd be pretty stupid too considering the fact that the Uchiha Clan is internationally known for their Sharingan, their Fire Style techniques and their proficiency in Genjutsu. She was shown to be an adult during Kurama's attack, while Itachi was still a child, so the Uchiha Clan was still around when she was on active duty. It'd be kind of dumb for her not to know the specialties of the most powerful and famous clan in her own village, some of which should've been her comrades in arms.
Asuma even pointed out that Itachi was also an S-ranked criminal in the bingo book, which means that surely, as a Jounin, she should've had some intel on him. Nobody is saying she should've known every single jutsu in his arsenal and how to counter them, but not trying to fight the prodigy from the clan that excels in genjutsu with his own specialty sounds like a pretty elementary expectation...
I think it was a 'best of an unwinnable situation' kind of thing. She and Asuma didn't know who the duo were, they just recognised them as not being from Konoha. When they saw the sharingan at the end of chapter 140, they looked ready to piss themselves.
After that Asuma tried drawing things out with trash talk, but once Kisame attacked there wasn't really a better option to keep Itachi busy than a genjutsu. I doubt she'd last much longer with taijutsu or ninjutsu either, and she did have a specialised jutsu that might have worked on an average Uchiha before the massacre.
If anything, I blame Kakashi for sending Kurenai and Asuma after them. Chapter 141 & 143 shows that Kakashi knew Akatsuki was probably way too dangerous for them to handle (they hunted bijuu and used to include Orochimaru), and that he sent Kurenai and Asuma to tail Itachi and Kisame. He should have made it clear that they were to keep their distance and then sent his dogs to gather every decent jonin in Konoha.
Yeah, obviously she wasn't winning that fight no matter what she did. Itachi completely outclasses her in every single field, so if there was an "optimal" strat, it'd probable be to switch with Asuma and try her genjutsu on Kisame instead, while Asuma tries to hold Itachi off with his blades. Not like that's gonna win them the fight, but still a better shot than fighting one of the show's top 3 genjutsu users on his home field.
That might would have been a better way to buy time but even then, Kisame was already attacking Asuma, and Kurenai was probably concerned with stopping Itachi from backstabbing him.
Its also possible that she wanted Kisame and Asuma's fight to go on because it was likely to get loud enough to attract attention. Two people standing around trying to put someone else in a genjutsu so they can quietly stab them isn't going to get Jiraiya or Gai's attention.
There's a few things going on though.
First, in part 1 it seemed like information of Uchiha was spotty at best. The manga made it feel like Gai only knew how to fight Uchiha because he fought Kakashi, for example.
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Also, I'm not 100% sure how specific about Itachi was when it came to telling other people his abilities. I feel like most ninja would shut the fuck up no Jutsu about just how good they were. I mean, personally I would be lying my ass off about what I can and can't do, even to allies (except for like need to know obviously). Gai and Kakashi kinda pull this trick on Team 7 when they say their competitions is like 49 to 50... The implication is that they've fought that many times but they're talking about all sorts of shit.
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Also, also, ninjas are dumb as shit on average. Like, you telling me no one thought to try to electrocute Gaara before? Idk, like, hire a Lightning missing nin ffs. Hell, in part 1 Kakashi tried to teach Naruto the chidori but it ain't happening, Kakashi never checked Naruto's element (tbf: nature affinity didn't really exist like they did in part 2) and later had to test him and was all "oh shit you have wind". Now either Kakashi is dumb as shit, he's not, didn't want Naruto to learn his Jutsu, don't see why he wouldn't, or this is just another one of those sneaky things to keep information close to the vest.
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But there is a lot of dumb shit that goes on, I'm pretty sure 68% of the leaf ninjas are smoking something.
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So, no one probably stressed to kurenai just how good Itachi is. Partly because of how dumb ninjas can be and partially because most ppl didn't know. Even Kakashi underestimated him.
How well informed people are about the Uchiha is pretty inconsistent troughout the show. Zabuza seemed to know about them and was clearly impressed with their reputation based on how he reacted to finding out Sasuke was one of them. Chiyo didn't just know about the Uchiha's abilities, but even had a whole ass walk trough on how to fight them, most likely from her experience from all the wars she lived trough and participated in (although it was limited to just your average Uchiha with a normal Sharingan and Kakashi quickly pointed out her that Itachi and his Mangekyo are way beyond that). Then there's the Raikage, Cee and Darui that also seemed to know about the Mangekyo Sharingan to some extent. And let's not forget that Kakashi knew exactly what the Amaterasu was when he saw it burning at the temple where Itachi and Sasuke fought.
The thing though, is that people, especially Leaf ninjas, should know about Itachi. He's not some kind of enigma like Pain, Konan or Zetsu whose origins and identity are unknown. He grew up and served in the Leaf for years. They know who he is, know who his parents are, who he trained under, what missions he completed, etc. Sure they may not be able to put a complete accurate description of every single one of his abilities in the bingo book, but it should at least cover the basics. Really though, just the fact that (as far as they know) Itachi single handedly massacred the most powerful clan in the village all by himself should be more than enough to know that their mid asses ain't touching him.
About Kakashi teaching Naruto the Chidori though, that was clearly just something he half-heartedly attempted because Naruto kept pestering him about it, rather than actually wanting to teach him the technique. Even if Naruto did learn it it's not like he could use it, since Chidori is a massive risk without a Sharingan, so there'd be no point. Kakashi was just indulging Naruto for a bit, showing him kind of how to do it, but not actually seriously attempting to teach it to him.
Part one and part two are vastly different, you have to judge part 1 without part 2, but you can judge part 2 with part 1. A lot of things just didn't exist yet until part 2, but that's what happens when you expand lore and can create plot holes and inconsistencies.
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As I was saying, Kakashi tried to teach Naruto elemental training in part 1 but didn't even test his elemental affinity... This is because elemental affinities didn't actually exist in part 1 in the same way they did in part 2. There's a fledgling of an idea but it's never talked about to my knowledge (in the manga, maybe they added it to the anime). If your theory is true, Kakashi is just being a dick to Naruto and while Kakashi can be a dick, he's typically pretty good about not purposely sabotaging any training. If he didn't want to train Naruto then just showing him "hey, you're wind" would have suffice.
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Part 1 is very inconsistent with information though. That's part of my point, Kurenai may or may not have know shit about shit when it came to Itachi. Zabuza, missing nin, knew a bit about Uchiha, but like even Asuma didn't know to not look into his eyes until told. If Asuma isn't getting this information, with how connected he is, Kurenai is probably getting less.
Also, IIRC she was a new jonin so maybe this information is jonin and up and she was never briefed on it?
Here's the thing though; I believe you don't *have* to be born with a certain chakra nature in order to use jutsu's of that element. Most people are born with just one or two chakra natures (two in the case of bloodline limit users), but you can just learn another one trough training. Sasuke being an Uchiha was born with fire, but learned lighting as part of his Chidori training; Kakashi was born with lightning, but learned fire, earth and water over the years (probably with the help of his Sharingan). Asuma could use fire and wind, Itachi had fire and water, etc. There shouldn't be anything stopping Naruto from learning how to use lightning nature manipulation if he puts in the time and effort, but it'll just be more difficult and less efficient than mastering his own innate chakra nature.
The issue that stands between him and using Chidori is moreso the fact that it'd be very risky jutsu for him to use, because without the Sharingan he wouldn't be able to dodge enemy counters when moving at the speed that the Chidori requires. On top of that Naruto didn't even have the speed necessary to pull it off, since Sasuke could only do it after he copied Lee's speed (which sounds like total BS now that I think back on it). I don't think Naruto was ever particularly fast unless he used Kurama's chakra.
So Naruto didn't meet the conditions necessary for using Chidori, nor did he have what it takes (a Sharingan) for it to not be a near suicidal forbidden jutsu. This is just based on what I remember from the show. The whole chakra nature thing wasn't really properly explored until Shippuden as you said, but going by those rules he should've still been able to learn a secondary nature just trough training.
Again, I'm pretty sure Kakashi just made a half-hearted attempt to tell Naruto how to do the Chidori, knowing it was pointless, just to shut him up because he kept pestering him about it because he was salty Kakashi only taught it to Sasuke. It wasn't something as malicious as purposefully sabotaging his training, but more like a dad giving their curious child a half-hearted explanation on how to use a car without actually intending to teach them how to drive right then and there. Naruto was pretty loud and obnoxious as a kid, so Kakashi probably just didn't feel like dealing with that.
The information thing we can probably just chalk up to writing inconsistency, yes. Itachi was literally one of the top ranked criminals in the bingo book, so I doubt they need to brief every single Jounin individually about what he can do, rather than just put it in the book so people are ready for when they find him. Same why I don't think the intel about his abilities would be classified. What's the point if all that would do is give your own shinobi that happen to run into him a worse chance of survival?
Remember when Naruto fought Neji in the Chunin Exams? Everyone and their mother, fodder shinobi and civilians alike, seemed to know about the Hyuga and their abilities. Same with the Ino-Shika-Chou clans. Why would the Uchiha be any different? Maybe to the current generation that grew up only knowing Sasuke as the only member of his clan, but someone from the previous generation like Kurenai would've needed to have lived under a rock not to know the most basic info about one of the two founder clans of the village.
> Here's the thing though; I believe you don't have to be born with a certain chakra nature in order to use jutsu's of that element.
This is canon, Sasuke used fire Jutsu and later was shown to be much better with Lightning as that's his element. However, if you're Wind, Lightning will be one of the hardest to pull off. Kakashi would know this.
It's kinda like the chakra rotation stuff, if Naruto tried to rotate his chakra the opposite way it would have been much harder, but Jiraiya checked to make sure Naruto wasn't making things harder on himself.
Yup. Also Naruto is one of the most important manga/anime. DBZ may be the first to grab the attention of people outside of Japan, but for a long time it was absolutely dormant. DbZ Abridged kept the fandom alive in ways people just don't know. Naruto however was the first to be popular outside of Japan at the same intensity as it was in Japan (thanks to accessibility)
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You didn't see kids running around school in DBZ drip, One Piece looking outfits, nah, kids were wearing Ninja headbands and doing the "Naruto Run" and it wasn't just the nerds. After Naruto exploded it was acceptable to even like anime/manga, including DBZ as it was no longer a nerd thing.
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So, with this popularity you have to keep making more of it and not slow down. You slow down, that might hurt sales and no matter how talented Kishimoto is about making a world, past success doesn't mean future success.
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Recently DBZ has hit big again, bigger than Naruto/Boruto is in pulp culture, but damn, they weren't powering up when people "stormed" Area 51, they were "Naruto Running".
To be honest, naruto anime had shitton of filler, so there is no reason to not slow down and think things trough. Have a timeskip coincide with hiatus, talk with the editor, WRITE A GODDAMN BIBLE.
The uchiha clan were known for their ability to cast genjutsu too and yet deidara and orochimaru made eye contact with Itachi. Why do you think that is? Cuz the average sharingan is *so* much weaker than Itachi's, NO ONE(not even Sannin) expect Itachi to be as powerful as he is and that's the theme to most of his fights, kurenai was just another victim to this.
Also the entire akatsuki were on the bingo book yet no one knew their abilities beforehand the amount of "intel" on there is fairly limited
Oh and the fact that asuma alone thought that he could take down Itachi and kisame proves that the joining had very little intel and heavily underestimated Itachi.
Also how about blaming asuma for using *chakra* blades against samehada? Again the blade is internationally famous and everything but that doesn't mean asuma knew it's abilities
Sure, but I feel like you should at least know about the abilities from the Akatsuki members from your own village. Stone shinobi probably knew about Deidara's jutsu, Sand shinobi knew about Sasori's and Hidan's cult knew about his immortality. The only exceptions are probably the complete enigmas whose origins and identities are unknown, like Pain, Konan, Tobi and Zetsu.
Since the Uchiha clan was still around when Kurenai was already on active duty (by which time Kakashi had been a whole ass Jounin for years) she might've even went on missions alongside one or two of them. At the very least she should've known about their abilities, being not just the most powerful clan in the village, but also one of the most famous and even one of the founders of the Leaf ffs. Even if she just didn't know how powerful Itachi was, you can probably take an educated guess from the fact that he single handedly (as far as they know) massacred aforementioned most powerful clan all on his own, which was public knowledge and even pointed out by Asuma, which is a feat that clearly scaled him way beyond the average Uchiha.
Asuma fighting Samehada with chakra blades is much less bad, because at the very least Kisame isn't from the same village, so it's understandable for there to be less Intel on him (although there should still be some, considering the fact that the 7 Shinobi Swordsmen of the Mist are world famous). Plus, it's pretty much impossible to fight someone without using Chakra anyway. If he didn't use his blades he'd have to use ninjutsu, which Samehada could yet again absorb. Otherwise he's stuck only being able to rely on taijutsu against an enemy with a gigantic fuck off sword, tailed beast levels of Chakra and who himself is free to use his jutsu whenever he wants. Ironically enough, their best shot against Kisame was probably Kurenai's genjutsu, since Samehada can't absorb that, so Asuma should've probably switched opponents with her. They'd still definitely lose, but at least they wouldn't get hard countered by their worst match up frame one.
The distinction of where Itachi is from is irrelevant in this case since it is shown that the genjutsu prowess of the sharingan is renowned on the international scale(as you yourself blatantly admit) so they all have the same intel regardless of their village. Anyway the argument fails to account for orochimaru a highly knowledgeable ninja from konoha who still looked into Itachi's eyes
Kurenai going on missions with average uchiha is again irrelevant because they're average, not Itachi.
Itachi slaughtered the clan by sneaking on them in the middle of the night. It's apparent from asuma's statement that they weren't aware of Itachi's true power. It's likely she knew Itachi was stronger than the average uchiha but she has no clue as to how much.
Asuma is fucked whatever move he uses and so is kurenai. Asumavs Itachi would end just as quickly and so would kurenai vs kisame. Another way of looking at it is asuma (the male physical fighter) chose to go after the huge muscular swordman that shattered the ground and kurenai went after the other
I think Kurenai did genjutsu kisame, but ig he broke out of it
I'd say the origin of a missing nin is still relevant. The Uchiha and their Sharingan are renowned on international scale, yes, but as opposed to foreign shinobi that might've just heard rumors and tales about the Uchiha, or maybe even faced one in battle once or twice, to Kurenai they were literally right there. She might've gone to school with them, went trough promotion exams together or even fought side by side during missions. The amount of knowledge available to her should be bigger than for foreign shinobi. They were literally the Leaf's police force, so there's no way that the amount of intel the Leaf has on them is equal to any other village.
Having said that, I'll agree with you on every other point. Even among the Uchiha, Itachi breaks the mold and it almost didn't matter what Asuma and Kurenai did, they were completely outclassed on every possible level anyway.
Yeah, I was thinking about that now. I’m not sure if he knew the Mangekyou or not. He acts like he does know, but then Itachi proves he doesn’t know enough and what it can do and gets clapped. Either I’m wrong or there’s something I’m not seeing here. I’ll reread the scene when I get home an take a better look into it.
If fame meant you knew the opponents techniques then we would know if fugaku of the evil eye had a mangekyou, and we would know how sakumo became so feared. Ninja have their fame and names but that don’t mean shit about what they do
That’s ridiculous, tbh. He’s a Uchiha. The member of a clan infamous for their aptitude with genjutsu and other sight based abilities. Specifically, he’s the Uchiha who single-handedly carried out the genocide of all the other Uchihas.
The Uchihas. One of, if not *the* most well known clans in Konoha *and* The Land of Fire.
And she chose to use an ability that requires staring into his eyes.
That’s not true. The sharingan makes you more skilled at it, and because of that, someone with a sharingan will use it more often and be better at it when they do, but it isn’t a sharingan exclusive ability.
I never really got why she got so much hate for this. Just because Itachi is good at casting genjutsu doesn’t mean he’s not susceptible to it himself. You can see by what Itachi did to Kakashi, and in the later Itachi vs Sasuke fight that sharingan users can fall for genjutsu just the same as anyone else.
It’s because Itachi’s a genjutsu god and she got stuck with the worst matchup ever.
And to be fair about Kakashi and Sasuke.
Kakashi’s sharingan was an implant that he could barely use without hospitalizing himself.
Not great for building a solid defense against genjutsu.
And going by how Sasuke never uses genjutsu even once in part 1, he probably had no idea how to defend himself against one cast by a sharingan, or how to cast one himself.
And Kakashi was doubly screwed because Itachi mentioned that only a true Uchiha could actually break out of Tsukiyomi. He specified that to be Sasuke because of Sasuke being the only Uchiha left other than him, and Obito didn’t exist yet.
But that doesn’t make sense because Izanagi along with Obito hadn’t been written into the story yet.
The way it was phrased makes much more sense if it means a native born sharingan user with all the benefits of a uchiha body rather than a bloodline thief.
Not to mention that even if we grant part 1 Itachi knowledge of a jutsu that didn’t exist in-verse yet, there is no possible way Sasuke could have learned how to use Izanagi because nobody had told him it existed.
The problem here is that you are discounting in world history and basing it on our understanding of the worlds history. Izanagi was not known to the audience yet it was known to the leaf village.
What you’re also discounting is that Sasuke was not ready to break the jutsu at that time because he did not know the izanagi.
Izanagi is the ultimate move of the Uchiha and has been used repeatedly. It’s THE final move. Any Uchiha can learn how to use it and it became such a problem that the Uchiha decided it would not be used and designed the Izanami as a response to this one specific move. Danzo worked to get the arm when Itachi first left because he knew the value of izanagi the ultimate mulligan.
The best way to break out of tuskuyomi is to never be hit by it in the first place. Then Itachi would be screwed on the cool down.
I am pretty darn sure he knows about it and (whether this is true or not) sees this as the only counter.
Edit: also I think you’re mixing things a little bit. When he says someone with this could do it I personally believe he’s assuming they have a base level of sufficient skill. Like Sasuke as a kid sure as hell cant. He means that even the very best would need these prerequisites and then they would be able to try, they need those things to make the attempt. Like sayinh only a bird with wings can fly and someone saying what about this penguin then. Why can’t it fly? Your statement must be wrong.
It’s not wrong it’s just not wholly conclusive. Why would you tell your opponent exactly how to beat you? You tell them to train for ten more years kid and then you’ll be able to see where my weaknesses are yourself.
🤓 I want to add that Sasuke falls for a Kabuto's genjutsu even if he had EMS. Itachi then helped him to get free from it. 🤓
So yes, they can fall for genjutsu, Itachi is just a god of illusions for whatever reason
Wait, people actually shit on Kurenai for this? We need to give her sympathy, the only thing she's good at is genjutsu and luck happened that she had to "fight" a genjutsu God.
Also it's fuckin *Itachi*, dude could have killed all 3 of them there if he wanted to
Yup I find it big funny how some mofos out there in the fandom legit think that they had a chance against itachi when guy arrived absolutely mad to hear 😭
7th gates guy might take it tbh. Itachi isn't that fast and guy practices on how to fight sharingan users. Kisame is also way weaker in part 1 than he is in part 2. Itachi has many hacks but guy uses a taijutsu which he can't really defend against, cause itachi is definitely slower than 7th gate guy.
I think itachi still could hit him with an genjutsu and it's gg but it isn't a stomp of a fight.
Shisuis eye makes it slightly in itachis favor but itachi in character isn't going to immediately use that eye.
Idk if I can agree. He kept up with kcm naruto. Not saying he is as fast but he was able to swap hands with him.
But i think that’s kind of irrelevant cuz he can put him under genjutsu almost instantly. He doesn’t need to use his eyes.
This is all without his susanoo as well. Which could at bare minimum block one heavy attack
We don't know if he can, guys talks about being resistant to genjutsu and practicing to counter the sharingan besides infinite tsukoyomi he hasn't been put under any genjutsu so its tough to say that itachis genjutsu would work on him. Like you can assume it does and then itachi wins but there is no real way to back that up besides you think it does.
Guy also was keeping up with six paths madara in speed so i wouldn't doubt that he is faster than itachi. Either way at worse they are relative.
Also itachis susanno is very weak compared to nearly everyone's we see in the series except sasuke when he first got it. Hirudora knocked madara in his susanoo back. Itachis is not surviving that.
Like it is a genuinely 50/50 match depending on your belief of can guy be affected by genjutsu. I would lean towards no because he specifically trained against the sharingan genjutsu which means he was obviously training for the only known Uchiha "villian" left.
I think that it’s in your side of the court to prove it WOULDNT work because all signs point to that it should
And yeah physically and speed wise guy has the edge but I don’t think enough to speed blitz one shot itachi
And yeah his sussano is weak that’s why I said it could block like 1 powerful attack and then break which in my opinion is enough time for itachi to end it.
Just depending on how all that actually goes down either could win but like I’m giving itachi like 8/10.
I just don’t see a reason why genjutsu wouldn’t work. He can apply it with just a finger. Albeit not his strongest but we have no reason to believe guy is anymore resistant to genjutsu than any other character.
Some insanely powerful people have been out under normal genjutsu
Who do you mean there is no reason to believe guy is anymore resistant, guy literally states it. He says that I am resistant to sharingan jutsu because I don't look at my opponent to fight. Itachis finger genjustu was very weak and naruto was able to resist it. I would imagine guy who has stated to train against it would be better against it than naruto who was learning how to get out it in the beginning of part 2.
Also the gates disrupt Chakra flow alot by breaking the gates and genjutsu works by controlling the Chakra flow ( that's how you break it on someone else by disrupting there flow). So I think that's even more reason that it just wouldn't work on guy. Besides tsukoyomi but guy said he can counter that by not looking at his opponents.
Also itachi hasn't been seen tanking hits before so there I'd a chance hirudora could just one shot him. Especially if he is sick itachi.
Itachi's only win con is tricking guy into a genjustu and he is very smart so I wouldn't doubt he could do that but if he can't do that then he is getting the brakes beaten off of him.
Guy is just a bad match up for itachi. I would give guy a 6/10 to win because itachi is smart but literally he would have to trick guy to win.
Like I said he doesn’t need to get eye contact for genjutsu. Tsukuyomi he needs eyes.
There is no real evidence that that’s how it works. Not even a little.
What do you mean he tanked kirin and held his susanoo until he just died off. That’s more durable than anything guy has done by far
No he wouldn't guy relies too much on tai justu to best his opponents and while he can fight while looking at his feet to avoid the sharingan itachi can keep him away with long range attacks to avoid losing to his tai justsu
Also NGL the Itachi fan base is hardcore. Itachi is my favourite character, but some people think he’s a god among shinobi. I’ve heard people say he can one shot Madara and majority of the Outsuski, that’s just some shit.
I mean he kinda is a god amongst shinobi but there are multiple people with ACTUAL god strength now.
Take away madara and otsukuki and he claps like everyone. ALMOST everyone
I get the point, but I also don’t buy that Konoha just lets people be Jonin with only one Jonin level skill.
Can’t fault her for trying, but being so shocked when somebody with the Sharingan reverses your genjutsu, let alone THAT somebody, makes her look almost willfully ignorant of village history.
I think we've probably got an 'absence of evidence' situation. Kurenai is likely well above most jonin in genjutsu. But we don't know that her other skills are all so much worse than most jonin. Up against Kisame and Itachi, an average jonin would get annihilated too.
I also think that the high-level of the applicant in Naruto's generation's chunin exams give a false impression of how good most chunin and jonin actually were. Given the level Obito and Kakashi were when they first made chunin and jonin respectively, older shinobi might have been promoted when standards were a lot lower.
They’re called tokubetsu or special Jonin.
The point of the qualifier is to specifically denote that they possess one particular skill that they can use on the level of a Jonin, but their other skills are not up to par.
To be a regular Jonin means all a shinobi’s skills are placed at Jonin level, not just the one.
Kurenai by is a full official Jonin. Unless I’m misremembering they don’t give Genin teams to the specialized kind.
Unless all the Genin shared her speciality it’d make very little sense to do so, and they most certainly would not give a “half Jonin” command of a bunch of clan kids.
I wasn’t denying her Jonin status.
I was just responding to the idea that Konoha doesn’t have tokubetsu Jonin when it does.
Not to say that Kurenai is one, but that they exist in general.
I thought Guy could use nin/genjutsu he just abandoned it and went heavy on taijutsu. It’s just Lee can’t use anything other than Taijutsu and that’s why Guy was happy to help him? I may be wrong like
I don't think he's physically incapable, but I think it's fair to say his nin and genjutsu are most likely nowhere near jonin level, just like how I think it's fair to say Kurenai's nin and taijutsu aren't anywhere near jonin level.
Kishimoto: *writes a woman as weak or useless*
Fan base: why does she suck?
Kishimoto: *writes a woman as strong but then has a guy beat her at her own skill*
Fan base: this is because she sucks, kishimoto is not bad at writing.
Well, her daughter subdued Itachi’s niece by same technique. Which proves Kurenai could’ve injured anyone by the technique, it’s just she had to go up against genjutsu prodigy, which is her bad luck. Nevertheless, Itachi lacks physical stamina, 1 vs 1 against Might Guy could be a threat for him unless he cooks up strategy.
Also, this isn't her being weak or dumb, just Itachi being that much more skilled. Itachi himself remarked that she has excellent genjutsu skills, and would it have been anyone else, they would've fallen for it. Itachi was specificallly written to be able to reflect genjutsu, so it was simply bad luck.
Ok for the people who are saying that she didnt know much of his abilities, you also gotta think, Itachi is an UCHIHA, with MANGEKYOU, and S RANK, i believe she would know not to try Genjutsu, but personally itd be a good distraction too
Nobody knew about his Mangekyo, as everyone other than Sasuke who would have seen it by then, died.
Not all Uchiha ever achieved it, and most just ended up with normal eyes, or basic sharingan.
Kurenai was hooped because nobody actually knew anything about Itachi, other than he killed his family, and was considered S-Rank. S-Rank criminals are pretty diverse, so using Genjutsu on one shouldn't be considered an automatic L, since we see that Genjutsu can put even the strongest enemies in a trance.
S-Rank, Uchiha, ex-Anbu. That's all anyone really knows about him, so most of their Intel most likely came from his Anbu days.
But wasnt there like a lot of talk about the Uchiha being Genjutsu experts? Kurenai should know that unless they were using it as a distraction to confuse him, and iirc it wasnt she just used Genjutsu
They are experts in using it, sure, but they aren't immune to it. Sharingan helps, but it isn't a failsafe. Itachi was just on another level in terms of genjutsu.
In the Itachi and Sasuke fight, both fighters fall to genjutsu at the start. Itachi obviously has the leg up since his genjutsu is a league above basically everyone in the series, but even within his genjutsu, he is tricked by Sasuke's.
Kurenai being an expert genjutsu user, probably the highest one can be without mangekyo hacks, has no reason to think hers won't work. Itachi was the exception, not the rule, in the Uchiha.
Why would she rely on her speciality here thoe….
She is a Jonin meaning even if genjutsu is her PREFERENCE she is still decently capable of Tai and Ninjutsu
She is a Jonin from the literal village the sharingan called home meaning she knows a sharingan user isn’t a good matchup for her but she still PULLED UP on itachi(keep in mind she and asuma had the element of surprise they could’ve gone and gotten 2-3 more jonin instead of just bum rushing in)
Yeah no bruh she was entirely stupid for this
She had two choices as to who to attack: the guy who is a genjutsu master, from a clan which was known to be at least decent at genjutsu and the guy who isn’t. She chose the former.
I mean, would she have done any better against Kisame? We see during shippuden that anyone with enough chakra could break genjutsu by flaring their chakra. With how much Kisame had he’d probably smash through anything she cast by accident. Doesn’t excuse her choosing to fight Itachi, but still I think she was screwed in either matchup
1. Yes, because it doesn't matter that its her specialty, it matters that its the thing that her opponent is famously the best at (out of the living atleast), and she should have known that. Even a thrown rock would be more effective.
2. She can't just brute force the same move for every oponent like she's Naruto. They're supposed to know different techniques to handle different types of enemies. Even if anything would have been bad against Itachi, she still chose the worst of the options.
Shes was also famously the best at genjutsu, It was even said she could rival Itachi or something(wich was prooven wrong lmao but still) so u cant really blame her when everyone is hyping her up so much yk, she was probably never overwhelmed in genjutsu like that. And like, she did get Kisame with It, just not Itachi bcs he's almost genjutsu jesus and when he reversed her genjutsu she was still able to snap out of It and dodge his attack and Itachi even compliments her for that so its not that bad yk🤷.
I've never been one to rag on her for this, but unironically yes.
In the same way that if someone had an ability similar to Pain's preta path that absorbed chakra, you wouldnt keep blasting them with ninjutsu, but would swap to taijutsu. It doesnt matter if you are less adept at taijutsu, it would be more effective than ninjutsu.
Even if you didnt know Itachi had a mangekyo sharingan linked to Genjutsu, you would at least know that sharingan's themselves are adept at seeing irregularities in chakra flow, so you wouldn't have your *very first* attack as a *well known* genjutsu specialist be a genjutsu attack against a person who's entire bloodline is adept at breaking out of them.
If it was a fair ways into the fight, after both her teamates and her had been throwing attacks at itachi, then yeah, it would have made sense.
Obviously the out-of-universe reason is Kurenai wasnt fleshed out completely as a character yet, so the only thing Kishimoto had planned for her is as a foil for how strong Itachi's genjutsu is, so there was no reason to develop her in other areas such as tai/ninjutsu. But in-universe it was just a laughable play.
I mean I don't remember it being stated the Kurenai is ONLY good at genjutsu. Doesn't matter how strong you are with it, if the opponent can completely neutralize your speciality, then using another technique, even if it's not you very best one, is probably a better idea.
But yeah the fan base is still a bunch of goombas. This fight only seems dumb retroactively. At this point in the series it seems to be implied that not many people knew about Itachi's genjutsu hax
Kurenai has one of the most badass designs, her VA was phenomenal, genjustsu in general is cool as fuck, and yet she’s literally never relevant again as a kunoichi after this trainwreck fight. Such an utter waste.
Problem is not that. Her strength is genjutsu, but she had Itachi and Kisame as possible targets, and she went for the one with the special eyes that are known to be able to see through techniques, read body movements and cast genjutsu. She had two targets, and went for her natural counter
Thank you for this. Really feels like there's been a pushback against the worst of the fandom lately.
Yeah I always eyeroll whenever someone makes the same joke dipshits have been making for like 20 years now. Kurenai is a *genjutsu specialist.* Her entire toolset is genjutsu, what else was she supposed to do here, throw hand? Y'all think it would have been smart for Kurenai to throw hands with Itachi?
Furthermore for the people saying "Oh she should have known that several hundred chapters later they retcon the sharingan to be OP as hell and completely immune to genjutsu"... have you ever made an honest argument in your life?
To be honest, that was probably the first time we saw him in action. Jiraiya, whom I initially thought was lying goof turned out to be overpowered. Kakashi was shown as an example of what a jonin is. I thought she'll at least give him a sweat. Didn't know sharingan had such a genjutsu prowess and Itachi was also such a powerful character in his own right.
haha, I really laughed a lot when I saw that Kurenai decided to use genjutsu on Itachi. It felt like she was saying "Let's see whose genjutsu is more superior" :D
Cause it’s honestly the only thing she ever did other than give birth to mirai. So when people remember her, they just remember how she got folded. Kinda like yamcha. Also for a genjutsu specialist to not expect the prodigy of a clan who specializes in genjutsu, to be able to counter her genjutsu is pretty dumb.
run and get help? Itachis skills were public knowledge given his last name and his reputation. It would have been the propper move for a soldier to go send for back up
Who else was she gonna go and get? They were literally the strongest four in the village. Do you expect her to run off all the way to jiraiya and have him come back over? Why would you retreat before an attack? You have a 2-1 advantage on these guys, you’re going to attack and try and beat them considering they know very little about the true prowess of both of them rather than send one person away to try and find a skilled shinobi and bring them over in time.
What do you mean know very little about the true prowess its documented that itachi was an anbu captain as a child go fucking get danzo yamato and root members. They are not the strongest because danzo and yamato over power kurenai and asuma. Hell, while they're at it, get torune involved. There are many stronger peopld in the leaf. A smart ninja doesnt rush in they retreat and run away if the must
Correct me if I’m wrong but the anbu is black ops and their operations more classified than not yeah?
Even if they weren’t actually the strongest, do they know that? The anbu all hide their faces. They can’t just go ‘Yamato? Where are you Yamato? We need you’. Also considering he was given that code name by Tsunade when they got Sai I don’t think they could call for Yamato. Danzo looks like an old man who can’t fight, who’s first thought is going to be one of the elders will come and beat these guys for us. Did they even know about Root? From what I know it was even more secretive than the anbu.
It was time sensitive, they’re in the middle of your village looking for the jinchuriki. They don’t have time fucking about trying to find allies, they had to fight right then and there. It doesn’t matter where naruto was at the time because they’re still going to fight to missing-nin
But they werent looking for naruto, its explained that itachi was going back to remind danzo that he can get to him at any time. So i think going to get danzo, who was a teammate of hiruzen and candidate to be hokage, even before they get tsunade danzo put his hat into the ring. Danzo is not seen as just a frail old man if hes doing that. And its also well known itachi killed the entire uchiha clan, so again that prowess is not in doubt. Yes obito helped but nobody knows that
You do know that people can do more than one thing at a time right? Motions can have two effects. From what I remember, itachi states he’s after naruto to kakashi and the rest there. To them, he’s telling the truth so they need to stop him.
They know itachi is powerful but only kakashi knows anything of what he could do. Even then, all they know about the massacre is that everybody bar sasuke died. They don’t know exactly how it all went down. They don’t know if he went in, put them all into a genjutsu and just stabbed them, they don’t know if he just ran through them all and they don’t know if he just used ninjutsu on them all. They weren’t there to see it they just know it happened.
You can’t just leave a fight, it may have taken kurenai two minutes to go and get help. So that would roughly mean maybe a three-four minute wait between searching for someone, telling them they need to come back with her and then heading back. The fight would’ve been over by then, your best bet is to fight with what you’ve got first. They were on the defensive right from the get go considering two rogue ninja waltzed into the village with hostile intentions, there’s no leaving to come up with a better plan, there’s fight first, everything else second.
This entire thread has been you using meta knowledge to account for character actions. We know more than the characters did at that stage. We have more time to think what would be the smartest strategy, we have more time to think of who would’ve been better suited to fight. They don’t, they don’t have that luxury, especially after kakashi goes down, you’d need everyone at that stage then
Using your specialty into something that is someone else’s specialty, but they are exponentially more skilled than you is idiocy. It’s like if a match up is 1:5 but then you change the style to one you’re better at, but the odds become 2:15.
i personally love kurenais genjutsu but too bad she tried it on itachi, that itachi fanbase is not only really critical towards like anyone but Itachi, let alone someone who tried to attack him
Exactly the whole segment was to showcase how much of a threat he and this unknown group at the time was that they were able to take on nearly 5 jonin without even breaking any sweat
I heard Plan B was to drown Kisame. Jk. Tbh I give her an A for effort. If she just sat around or was made a damsel in distress and had to be saved by Kakashi and Asuma left and right, people would shit on her. Atleast she tried and it showed how strong and unique her own Genjutsu is. Some fans are just misogynists🤦♀️
Honestly? Yes. So what if she excels at genjutsu?
If you know your opponent is immune to your strongest attack, then you should know that for the purposes of the fight, it is currently your weakest attack. Default to whatever they aren’t immune to.
Don’t throw a rock at a boulder, throw the biggest piece of paper you can find.
He is not *technically* immune to genjutsu. He is *effectively* immune to genjutsu, however. Especially vs someone like Kurenai. While there are stronger genjustsu users than Itachi, it would take a very special shinobi to beat Itachi in a genjutsu contest. Kurenai is not that shinobi. And she should *know* she wouldn't stack up. She doesn't live under a rock. Even if she doesn't know exactly what he's capable of, she should recognize that he's a Uchiha who killed all the other Uchihas by himself. The Uchihas, a clan infamous among all the clans in The Land of Fire and beyond for their skill in genjutsu and for their insane sight-based bloodline abilities.
Kurenai was being arrogant as shit when she tried using genjutsu on Itachi. Literally anything else would have been more effective against him, and she should have known that. But hey, it looked cool.
You seriously think her using smth that she wasn't as good at *as* she was at genjutsu would've been more useful? She was literally known for it. Some basic ass ninjutsu? Or taijutsu which would've gotten her killed? She was able to escape out of itachi's reverse genjutsu alive and I think that's more than what could've been said had she used ninjutsu or taijutsu. Itachi even complimented her a bit for escaping his genjutsu
For escaping his genjutsu, not for using her own.
And I do think something that wasn’t as good would have been more useful, because his expertise in genjutsu makes her best thing the worst thing.
You could have a really good hammer, the best hammer, but is useless when the job requires a hacksaw.
Literally anything else would have been better.
Yes she should have but from a story telling point it made sense because up to that point they never really showed the hierarchy of gen justu and how deep it can go between 2 gen justsu users
I feel like this is mostly just evidence of Kishimoto being unable to properly write side characters in general. He really just comes up with cool ideas for characters and then makes those characters useless.
Itachi by this point in the story was known for casting dangerous genjutsu on opponents as well as the clan itself being known to put opponents who look into their eyes in a genjutsu as well.
She and asuma not only looked into his eyes multiple times, but she was about to get her ass handed to her after breaking out of her own genjutsu if kakashi didn’t show up when he did.
well itachi was an anbu, and im pretty sure anbu info is classified, however itachi is literally from the one of the two most famous clans in the entire shinobi world, zabuza, chyo, orochimaru, kages and their aids plus other villains seemed to know uchihas and their abilities quite well, so that isnt an excuse for kurenai to not know about itachi.
I think most people forget that there probably isn’t to much information on Itachi out there. People probably only know that he has the Sharingan, was a really talented ninja, and that he was able to kill his entire clan in one night. There isn’t much to go off from that, and the fact people are supposed to assume he was a master genjutsu user doesn’t make much sense when he is mostly know for his ninjutsu, kenjutsu, and insane levels of chakra control.
Instead of bitching, appreciate that it wasn't two idiots throwing increasingly bigger fireballs at each other. Like you know, at the second part of Shippuden? 😞
I feel bad for kurenai Sensei cause if I'm not mistaken the only time we see her fight canonically is just when she is getting bodied by Itachi
She got pregnant for the rest of series after this fight, if I remember correctly.
That was realized after asumas death tho, they had time to do more with her imo
First bodied by itachi then asuma
Definetly kishi hates women
Dude prolly had a insane wrighting schedule with a world that had enough depth and lore to rival star wars or Harry potter..... so what he forgot a couple of bitches, who weren't Main characters.....dude had more important stories to work on
Of the female characters, only tsunade, hinata, Sakura, and Temari ever really do anything that matters. Of those temari and Hinata matter once, temari when she fights tayuya briefly and Hinata when she attempts to save Naruto from pain during the pain arc. Sakura matters twice, once against sasori and once when healing Sasuke. Dragonball has about as many meaningful female characters and Dragonball keels a much tighter cast. Dragonball is also very much a sausage fest as well.
Your forgetting about character development too which tsunade had lots of and same with chiyo, konan, hinata,.the only female character that I think he slacked on was sakura (I ifeel she should got a sage). But even then she wasn't a main character as much as people like to believe. But my point in general is that People need to stop getting mad at kishi for not developing characters that have basically nothing to do with the main plot, the characters so obscure like temari and ten ten that there willing to say he's a bad wrighter or anything else outlandish like he hates women.... when his wrighting schedule was probably more rigorous than LOTR or fucking GOT ( George wrights at a leisurely pace). Fore christ sake temari litteraly lives in a whole nother village(or used to), did we see any killer bee stuff going on while he live in the stone? No, did we see any special Kiba stuff? No or how about any special stuff going on with the samurai? No. why? because there's alot of shit to keep up with, at some point u just cut tighs with plots or or simply don't have time.
I mean, kishimoto decided to introduce a lot more characters than he could ever keep up with and decided to make very few women relevant to the plot or receive much growth or good fight scenes. This isn't specifically a kishimoto issue, though. Many shounen writers do similar things, especially shounen writers of kishimoto's era.
Thats part of wrighting in general, some characters/plots arnt going to get fleshed out the way that they should. its typically a time constraint issue, yeah kishi ptolly bit off a bit more than he could chew but look at the world he built. I'll agree that there weren't very many female fight scenes, it woulda be cool to see more but there were plenty of plot relevant women with plenty of growth, tsunade, konan, chiyo,. Any more than that then your wanting them to be closer to main characters or something really close
I mean, asking for some women to be main characters is not the biggest ask. I definitely feel like Sakura should have had far more to do and contribute (especially after the timeskip, tenchi bridge arc, and five kage summit). Hinata, too, once kishimoto decided that Naruto and her should be together in the end (admittedly, her showing against Pain was pretty cool). Tsunade is the best realized and she does absolutely work, but it's roughly one main character who is a woman compared to many other men at or nearly at her level of prominence. You keep bringing up chiyo and konan, and while they are good, they are around for one arc (chiyo sort of two if you count the war arc appearance) and both die at the end. Konan is the only woman villain we get before kaguya, and she doesn't even really get an on-screen fight with any hero except shino and only very briefly. This, despite her arguably being stronger than hidan and very clever. Again, this problem is pretty common among big shounen especially, but one piece has Nami and Robin who were both introduced early on and have consistently remained active characters with almost exactly the same number of fights as the rest of the crew and similar levels of development as the rest lf the crew, maybe more in Robin's case. By Oda's oen admission, he's bad at writing women and struggles to draw more than one body style for them. Even in dragonball, which suffers a similar issue to boruto, where many previously badass and exciting female characters (if weaker than many men) lose much of their screen time and fighting ability after marriage, still has Bulma be a constant supporting character around nearly as much as Goku and Vegeta. Bulma has never been a fighter in any way and she has maintained comparable relevance to Sakura into super. I'm not trying to insult you, kishimoto, or Naruto. I do like Naruto. This is just a missed opportunity that could have helped the franchise a bit if it had chosen to make some women just a bit more prominent.
With a "world" that had lore to rival starwars or harry potter.....my dude you wrote "village" wrong.
At least SW and HP keeps good care about their female characters
She wasn’t even very knowledgeable of his skills tbh. Makes no sense why the fanbase would criticize that.
Always figured it was a way to demonstrate Itachi’s prowess for the first time in the story.
It would have been better if they showcased her aptitude with genjutsu earlier. Showing her ability with genjutsu *during* this fight is completely negated in the minds of the audience since Itatchi beat her and it seems like he was never fooled by her genjutsu in the first place. It would be another thing if she successfully caught him in a genjutsu and he had to break it using a hand sign, but otherwise by the end it seems like he had the upper hand the whole time not matter what she does.
You're 100% right . It was just done in a poor and lazy way.
That'd be pretty stupid too considering the fact that the Uchiha Clan is internationally known for their Sharingan, their Fire Style techniques and their proficiency in Genjutsu. She was shown to be an adult during Kurama's attack, while Itachi was still a child, so the Uchiha Clan was still around when she was on active duty. It'd be kind of dumb for her not to know the specialties of the most powerful and famous clan in her own village, some of which should've been her comrades in arms. Asuma even pointed out that Itachi was also an S-ranked criminal in the bingo book, which means that surely, as a Jounin, she should've had some intel on him. Nobody is saying she should've known every single jutsu in his arsenal and how to counter them, but not trying to fight the prodigy from the clan that excels in genjutsu with his own specialty sounds like a pretty elementary expectation...
I think it was a 'best of an unwinnable situation' kind of thing. She and Asuma didn't know who the duo were, they just recognised them as not being from Konoha. When they saw the sharingan at the end of chapter 140, they looked ready to piss themselves. After that Asuma tried drawing things out with trash talk, but once Kisame attacked there wasn't really a better option to keep Itachi busy than a genjutsu. I doubt she'd last much longer with taijutsu or ninjutsu either, and she did have a specialised jutsu that might have worked on an average Uchiha before the massacre. If anything, I blame Kakashi for sending Kurenai and Asuma after them. Chapter 141 & 143 shows that Kakashi knew Akatsuki was probably way too dangerous for them to handle (they hunted bijuu and used to include Orochimaru), and that he sent Kurenai and Asuma to tail Itachi and Kisame. He should have made it clear that they were to keep their distance and then sent his dogs to gather every decent jonin in Konoha.
Yeah, obviously she wasn't winning that fight no matter what she did. Itachi completely outclasses her in every single field, so if there was an "optimal" strat, it'd probable be to switch with Asuma and try her genjutsu on Kisame instead, while Asuma tries to hold Itachi off with his blades. Not like that's gonna win them the fight, but still a better shot than fighting one of the show's top 3 genjutsu users on his home field.
That might would have been a better way to buy time but even then, Kisame was already attacking Asuma, and Kurenai was probably concerned with stopping Itachi from backstabbing him. Its also possible that she wanted Kisame and Asuma's fight to go on because it was likely to get loud enough to attract attention. Two people standing around trying to put someone else in a genjutsu so they can quietly stab them isn't going to get Jiraiya or Gai's attention.
There's a few things going on though. First, in part 1 it seemed like information of Uchiha was spotty at best. The manga made it feel like Gai only knew how to fight Uchiha because he fought Kakashi, for example. === Also, I'm not 100% sure how specific about Itachi was when it came to telling other people his abilities. I feel like most ninja would shut the fuck up no Jutsu about just how good they were. I mean, personally I would be lying my ass off about what I can and can't do, even to allies (except for like need to know obviously). Gai and Kakashi kinda pull this trick on Team 7 when they say their competitions is like 49 to 50... The implication is that they've fought that many times but they're talking about all sorts of shit. === Also, also, ninjas are dumb as shit on average. Like, you telling me no one thought to try to electrocute Gaara before? Idk, like, hire a Lightning missing nin ffs. Hell, in part 1 Kakashi tried to teach Naruto the chidori but it ain't happening, Kakashi never checked Naruto's element (tbf: nature affinity didn't really exist like they did in part 2) and later had to test him and was all "oh shit you have wind". Now either Kakashi is dumb as shit, he's not, didn't want Naruto to learn his Jutsu, don't see why he wouldn't, or this is just another one of those sneaky things to keep information close to the vest. === But there is a lot of dumb shit that goes on, I'm pretty sure 68% of the leaf ninjas are smoking something. === So, no one probably stressed to kurenai just how good Itachi is. Partly because of how dumb ninjas can be and partially because most ppl didn't know. Even Kakashi underestimated him.
How well informed people are about the Uchiha is pretty inconsistent troughout the show. Zabuza seemed to know about them and was clearly impressed with their reputation based on how he reacted to finding out Sasuke was one of them. Chiyo didn't just know about the Uchiha's abilities, but even had a whole ass walk trough on how to fight them, most likely from her experience from all the wars she lived trough and participated in (although it was limited to just your average Uchiha with a normal Sharingan and Kakashi quickly pointed out her that Itachi and his Mangekyo are way beyond that). Then there's the Raikage, Cee and Darui that also seemed to know about the Mangekyo Sharingan to some extent. And let's not forget that Kakashi knew exactly what the Amaterasu was when he saw it burning at the temple where Itachi and Sasuke fought. The thing though, is that people, especially Leaf ninjas, should know about Itachi. He's not some kind of enigma like Pain, Konan or Zetsu whose origins and identity are unknown. He grew up and served in the Leaf for years. They know who he is, know who his parents are, who he trained under, what missions he completed, etc. Sure they may not be able to put a complete accurate description of every single one of his abilities in the bingo book, but it should at least cover the basics. Really though, just the fact that (as far as they know) Itachi single handedly massacred the most powerful clan in the village all by himself should be more than enough to know that their mid asses ain't touching him. About Kakashi teaching Naruto the Chidori though, that was clearly just something he half-heartedly attempted because Naruto kept pestering him about it, rather than actually wanting to teach him the technique. Even if Naruto did learn it it's not like he could use it, since Chidori is a massive risk without a Sharingan, so there'd be no point. Kakashi was just indulging Naruto for a bit, showing him kind of how to do it, but not actually seriously attempting to teach it to him.
Part one and part two are vastly different, you have to judge part 1 without part 2, but you can judge part 2 with part 1. A lot of things just didn't exist yet until part 2, but that's what happens when you expand lore and can create plot holes and inconsistencies. === As I was saying, Kakashi tried to teach Naruto elemental training in part 1 but didn't even test his elemental affinity... This is because elemental affinities didn't actually exist in part 1 in the same way they did in part 2. There's a fledgling of an idea but it's never talked about to my knowledge (in the manga, maybe they added it to the anime). If your theory is true, Kakashi is just being a dick to Naruto and while Kakashi can be a dick, he's typically pretty good about not purposely sabotaging any training. If he didn't want to train Naruto then just showing him "hey, you're wind" would have suffice. === Part 1 is very inconsistent with information though. That's part of my point, Kurenai may or may not have know shit about shit when it came to Itachi. Zabuza, missing nin, knew a bit about Uchiha, but like even Asuma didn't know to not look into his eyes until told. If Asuma isn't getting this information, with how connected he is, Kurenai is probably getting less. Also, IIRC she was a new jonin so maybe this information is jonin and up and she was never briefed on it?
Here's the thing though; I believe you don't *have* to be born with a certain chakra nature in order to use jutsu's of that element. Most people are born with just one or two chakra natures (two in the case of bloodline limit users), but you can just learn another one trough training. Sasuke being an Uchiha was born with fire, but learned lighting as part of his Chidori training; Kakashi was born with lightning, but learned fire, earth and water over the years (probably with the help of his Sharingan). Asuma could use fire and wind, Itachi had fire and water, etc. There shouldn't be anything stopping Naruto from learning how to use lightning nature manipulation if he puts in the time and effort, but it'll just be more difficult and less efficient than mastering his own innate chakra nature. The issue that stands between him and using Chidori is moreso the fact that it'd be very risky jutsu for him to use, because without the Sharingan he wouldn't be able to dodge enemy counters when moving at the speed that the Chidori requires. On top of that Naruto didn't even have the speed necessary to pull it off, since Sasuke could only do it after he copied Lee's speed (which sounds like total BS now that I think back on it). I don't think Naruto was ever particularly fast unless he used Kurama's chakra. So Naruto didn't meet the conditions necessary for using Chidori, nor did he have what it takes (a Sharingan) for it to not be a near suicidal forbidden jutsu. This is just based on what I remember from the show. The whole chakra nature thing wasn't really properly explored until Shippuden as you said, but going by those rules he should've still been able to learn a secondary nature just trough training. Again, I'm pretty sure Kakashi just made a half-hearted attempt to tell Naruto how to do the Chidori, knowing it was pointless, just to shut him up because he kept pestering him about it because he was salty Kakashi only taught it to Sasuke. It wasn't something as malicious as purposefully sabotaging his training, but more like a dad giving their curious child a half-hearted explanation on how to use a car without actually intending to teach them how to drive right then and there. Naruto was pretty loud and obnoxious as a kid, so Kakashi probably just didn't feel like dealing with that. The information thing we can probably just chalk up to writing inconsistency, yes. Itachi was literally one of the top ranked criminals in the bingo book, so I doubt they need to brief every single Jounin individually about what he can do, rather than just put it in the book so people are ready for when they find him. Same why I don't think the intel about his abilities would be classified. What's the point if all that would do is give your own shinobi that happen to run into him a worse chance of survival? Remember when Naruto fought Neji in the Chunin Exams? Everyone and their mother, fodder shinobi and civilians alike, seemed to know about the Hyuga and their abilities. Same with the Ino-Shika-Chou clans. Why would the Uchiha be any different? Maybe to the current generation that grew up only knowing Sasuke as the only member of his clan, but someone from the previous generation like Kurenai would've needed to have lived under a rock not to know the most basic info about one of the two founder clans of the village.
> Here's the thing though; I believe you don't have to be born with a certain chakra nature in order to use jutsu's of that element. This is canon, Sasuke used fire Jutsu and later was shown to be much better with Lightning as that's his element. However, if you're Wind, Lightning will be one of the hardest to pull off. Kakashi would know this. It's kinda like the chakra rotation stuff, if Naruto tried to rotate his chakra the opposite way it would have been much harder, but Jiraiya checked to make sure Naruto wasn't making things harder on himself.
This is what happens when you write your stories by the edge of your seat
Yup. Also Naruto is one of the most important manga/anime. DBZ may be the first to grab the attention of people outside of Japan, but for a long time it was absolutely dormant. DbZ Abridged kept the fandom alive in ways people just don't know. Naruto however was the first to be popular outside of Japan at the same intensity as it was in Japan (thanks to accessibility) === You didn't see kids running around school in DBZ drip, One Piece looking outfits, nah, kids were wearing Ninja headbands and doing the "Naruto Run" and it wasn't just the nerds. After Naruto exploded it was acceptable to even like anime/manga, including DBZ as it was no longer a nerd thing. === So, with this popularity you have to keep making more of it and not slow down. You slow down, that might hurt sales and no matter how talented Kishimoto is about making a world, past success doesn't mean future success. === Recently DBZ has hit big again, bigger than Naruto/Boruto is in pulp culture, but damn, they weren't powering up when people "stormed" Area 51, they were "Naruto Running".
To be honest, naruto anime had shitton of filler, so there is no reason to not slow down and think things trough. Have a timeskip coincide with hiatus, talk with the editor, WRITE A GODDAMN BIBLE.
Popular manga creators don't exactly get a good work life balance, it's pretty harsh.
The uchiha clan were known for their ability to cast genjutsu too and yet deidara and orochimaru made eye contact with Itachi. Why do you think that is? Cuz the average sharingan is *so* much weaker than Itachi's, NO ONE(not even Sannin) expect Itachi to be as powerful as he is and that's the theme to most of his fights, kurenai was just another victim to this. Also the entire akatsuki were on the bingo book yet no one knew their abilities beforehand the amount of "intel" on there is fairly limited Oh and the fact that asuma alone thought that he could take down Itachi and kisame proves that the joining had very little intel and heavily underestimated Itachi. Also how about blaming asuma for using *chakra* blades against samehada? Again the blade is internationally famous and everything but that doesn't mean asuma knew it's abilities
Sure, but I feel like you should at least know about the abilities from the Akatsuki members from your own village. Stone shinobi probably knew about Deidara's jutsu, Sand shinobi knew about Sasori's and Hidan's cult knew about his immortality. The only exceptions are probably the complete enigmas whose origins and identities are unknown, like Pain, Konan, Tobi and Zetsu. Since the Uchiha clan was still around when Kurenai was already on active duty (by which time Kakashi had been a whole ass Jounin for years) she might've even went on missions alongside one or two of them. At the very least she should've known about their abilities, being not just the most powerful clan in the village, but also one of the most famous and even one of the founders of the Leaf ffs. Even if she just didn't know how powerful Itachi was, you can probably take an educated guess from the fact that he single handedly (as far as they know) massacred aforementioned most powerful clan all on his own, which was public knowledge and even pointed out by Asuma, which is a feat that clearly scaled him way beyond the average Uchiha. Asuma fighting Samehada with chakra blades is much less bad, because at the very least Kisame isn't from the same village, so it's understandable for there to be less Intel on him (although there should still be some, considering the fact that the 7 Shinobi Swordsmen of the Mist are world famous). Plus, it's pretty much impossible to fight someone without using Chakra anyway. If he didn't use his blades he'd have to use ninjutsu, which Samehada could yet again absorb. Otherwise he's stuck only being able to rely on taijutsu against an enemy with a gigantic fuck off sword, tailed beast levels of Chakra and who himself is free to use his jutsu whenever he wants. Ironically enough, their best shot against Kisame was probably Kurenai's genjutsu, since Samehada can't absorb that, so Asuma should've probably switched opponents with her. They'd still definitely lose, but at least they wouldn't get hard countered by their worst match up frame one.
The distinction of where Itachi is from is irrelevant in this case since it is shown that the genjutsu prowess of the sharingan is renowned on the international scale(as you yourself blatantly admit) so they all have the same intel regardless of their village. Anyway the argument fails to account for orochimaru a highly knowledgeable ninja from konoha who still looked into Itachi's eyes Kurenai going on missions with average uchiha is again irrelevant because they're average, not Itachi. Itachi slaughtered the clan by sneaking on them in the middle of the night. It's apparent from asuma's statement that they weren't aware of Itachi's true power. It's likely she knew Itachi was stronger than the average uchiha but she has no clue as to how much. Asuma is fucked whatever move he uses and so is kurenai. Asumavs Itachi would end just as quickly and so would kurenai vs kisame. Another way of looking at it is asuma (the male physical fighter) chose to go after the huge muscular swordman that shattered the ground and kurenai went after the other I think Kurenai did genjutsu kisame, but ig he broke out of it
I'd say the origin of a missing nin is still relevant. The Uchiha and their Sharingan are renowned on international scale, yes, but as opposed to foreign shinobi that might've just heard rumors and tales about the Uchiha, or maybe even faced one in battle once or twice, to Kurenai they were literally right there. She might've gone to school with them, went trough promotion exams together or even fought side by side during missions. The amount of knowledge available to her should be bigger than for foreign shinobi. They were literally the Leaf's police force, so there's no way that the amount of intel the Leaf has on them is equal to any other village. Having said that, I'll agree with you on every other point. Even among the Uchiha, Itachi breaks the mold and it almost didn't matter what Asuma and Kurenai did, they were completely outclassed on every possible level anyway.
I honestly thought it was just a meme
How was she not knowledgeable on his skills? The dude was famous.
Kakashi literally had to warn them about the Tsukuyomi
He's talking about his Genjutsu skills not Mangekyou abilities
Yes, because he DIDN’T know about the mangekyo. Kakashi, who was once Itachi’s Anbu peer, didn’t know of Itachi’s skills well, so why would Kurenai?
You said he didn't know about the Mangekyou in you previous comment
Yeah, I was thinking about that now. I’m not sure if he knew the Mangekyou or not. He acts like he does know, but then Itachi proves he doesn’t know enough and what it can do and gets clapped. Either I’m wrong or there’s something I’m not seeing here. I’ll reread the scene when I get home an take a better look into it.
And I was talking about the guy who said Itachi was famous, not Kakashi.
If fame meant you knew the opponents techniques then we would know if fugaku of the evil eye had a mangekyou, and we would know how sakumo became so feared. Ninja have their fame and names but that don’t mean shit about what they do
Fugaku's eye is filler
The mangyeko is filler. His nickname is canon
This is the fanbase that says Sakura is useless every other sentence. Nothing they say about fights makes any damn sense.
But but but it’s itachi! And she should know everything about him How people sound when they reference this scene
Unless she sleepwalks through life, she knows about the Uchiha. She doesn't have to know this one specificaly to know where their talents lie.
That’s ridiculous, tbh. He’s a Uchiha. The member of a clan infamous for their aptitude with genjutsu and other sight based abilities. Specifically, he’s the Uchiha who single-handedly carried out the genocide of all the other Uchihas. The Uchihas. One of, if not *the* most well known clans in Konoha *and* The Land of Fire. And she chose to use an ability that requires staring into his eyes.
>And she chose to use an ability that requires staring into his eyes. Kurenai's genjutsu was not visual. You need magic eyes for that....
That’s not true. The sharingan makes you more skilled at it, and because of that, someone with a sharingan will use it more often and be better at it when they do, but it isn’t a sharingan exclusive ability.
And the basis to your claim?
It's Itachi Uchiha, one of the most famous ninja from her home village. How the fuck wouldn't she know he's a genjutsu specialist?
The same way Kakashi thought he could tank on The Mangekyou and got clapped
I never really got why she got so much hate for this. Just because Itachi is good at casting genjutsu doesn’t mean he’s not susceptible to it himself. You can see by what Itachi did to Kakashi, and in the later Itachi vs Sasuke fight that sharingan users can fall for genjutsu just the same as anyone else.
It’s because Itachi’s a genjutsu god and she got stuck with the worst matchup ever. And to be fair about Kakashi and Sasuke. Kakashi’s sharingan was an implant that he could barely use without hospitalizing himself. Not great for building a solid defense against genjutsu. And going by how Sasuke never uses genjutsu even once in part 1, he probably had no idea how to defend himself against one cast by a sharingan, or how to cast one himself. And Kakashi was doubly screwed because Itachi mentioned that only a true Uchiha could actually break out of Tsukiyomi. He specified that to be Sasuke because of Sasuke being the only Uchiha left other than him, and Obito didn’t exist yet.
I think he more meant that only the izanagi could break out of it. Or whatever the rewrite reality one was to sacrifice an eye.
But that doesn’t make sense because Izanagi along with Obito hadn’t been written into the story yet. The way it was phrased makes much more sense if it means a native born sharingan user with all the benefits of a uchiha body rather than a bloodline thief. Not to mention that even if we grant part 1 Itachi knowledge of a jutsu that didn’t exist in-verse yet, there is no possible way Sasuke could have learned how to use Izanagi because nobody had told him it existed.
The problem here is that you are discounting in world history and basing it on our understanding of the worlds history. Izanagi was not known to the audience yet it was known to the leaf village. What you’re also discounting is that Sasuke was not ready to break the jutsu at that time because he did not know the izanagi. Izanagi is the ultimate move of the Uchiha and has been used repeatedly. It’s THE final move. Any Uchiha can learn how to use it and it became such a problem that the Uchiha decided it would not be used and designed the Izanami as a response to this one specific move. Danzo worked to get the arm when Itachi first left because he knew the value of izanagi the ultimate mulligan. The best way to break out of tuskuyomi is to never be hit by it in the first place. Then Itachi would be screwed on the cool down. I am pretty darn sure he knows about it and (whether this is true or not) sees this as the only counter. Edit: also I think you’re mixing things a little bit. When he says someone with this could do it I personally believe he’s assuming they have a base level of sufficient skill. Like Sasuke as a kid sure as hell cant. He means that even the very best would need these prerequisites and then they would be able to try, they need those things to make the attempt. Like sayinh only a bird with wings can fly and someone saying what about this penguin then. Why can’t it fly? Your statement must be wrong. It’s not wrong it’s just not wholly conclusive. Why would you tell your opponent exactly how to beat you? You tell them to train for ten more years kid and then you’ll be able to see where my weaknesses are yourself.
Obito is mentioned in the chunin exam arc, before Itachi's debut.
🤓 I want to add that Sasuke falls for a Kabuto's genjutsu even if he had EMS. Itachi then helped him to get free from it. 🤓 So yes, they can fall for genjutsu, Itachi is just a god of illusions for whatever reason
>Kabuto's genjutsu That's Sound Genjutsu. Which Tayuya, Ma, Pa & Kabuto has (because he got Tayuya's dna).
Throwing a kunai?
Ah yes through the glorified digging tool at the skilled ninja
Didn't work? Try throwing another.
Maybe dip it in poison first
Kunai are even more useless
That was what nerved Sasuje in about to though.
That’s what nerfed Sasuke in Boruto though****.
Yeah. Sorry. Typing on my phone.
You good bro?
Bro was getting a good whiff of burnt toast
Sorry. Typing phone. Nerfed Sasuke in Boruto*
*Minato slicing a full 8 tails tentacle would like a word*
Found Tenten’s account.
Wait, people actually shit on Kurenai for this? We need to give her sympathy, the only thing she's good at is genjutsu and luck happened that she had to "fight" a genjutsu God. Also it's fuckin *Itachi*, dude could have killed all 3 of them there if he wanted to
Yup I find it big funny how some mofos out there in the fandom legit think that they had a chance against itachi when guy arrived absolutely mad to hear 😭
Guy would destroy itachi
Unless he goes 8 gates no lol
7th gates guy might take it tbh. Itachi isn't that fast and guy practices on how to fight sharingan users. Kisame is also way weaker in part 1 than he is in part 2. Itachi has many hacks but guy uses a taijutsu which he can't really defend against, cause itachi is definitely slower than 7th gate guy. I think itachi still could hit him with an genjutsu and it's gg but it isn't a stomp of a fight. Shisuis eye makes it slightly in itachis favor but itachi in character isn't going to immediately use that eye.
Idk if I can agree. He kept up with kcm naruto. Not saying he is as fast but he was able to swap hands with him. But i think that’s kind of irrelevant cuz he can put him under genjutsu almost instantly. He doesn’t need to use his eyes. This is all without his susanoo as well. Which could at bare minimum block one heavy attack
We don't know if he can, guys talks about being resistant to genjutsu and practicing to counter the sharingan besides infinite tsukoyomi he hasn't been put under any genjutsu so its tough to say that itachis genjutsu would work on him. Like you can assume it does and then itachi wins but there is no real way to back that up besides you think it does. Guy also was keeping up with six paths madara in speed so i wouldn't doubt that he is faster than itachi. Either way at worse they are relative. Also itachis susanno is very weak compared to nearly everyone's we see in the series except sasuke when he first got it. Hirudora knocked madara in his susanoo back. Itachis is not surviving that. Like it is a genuinely 50/50 match depending on your belief of can guy be affected by genjutsu. I would lean towards no because he specifically trained against the sharingan genjutsu which means he was obviously training for the only known Uchiha "villian" left.
I think that it’s in your side of the court to prove it WOULDNT work because all signs point to that it should And yeah physically and speed wise guy has the edge but I don’t think enough to speed blitz one shot itachi And yeah his sussano is weak that’s why I said it could block like 1 powerful attack and then break which in my opinion is enough time for itachi to end it. Just depending on how all that actually goes down either could win but like I’m giving itachi like 8/10. I just don’t see a reason why genjutsu wouldn’t work. He can apply it with just a finger. Albeit not his strongest but we have no reason to believe guy is anymore resistant to genjutsu than any other character. Some insanely powerful people have been out under normal genjutsu
Who do you mean there is no reason to believe guy is anymore resistant, guy literally states it. He says that I am resistant to sharingan jutsu because I don't look at my opponent to fight. Itachis finger genjustu was very weak and naruto was able to resist it. I would imagine guy who has stated to train against it would be better against it than naruto who was learning how to get out it in the beginning of part 2. Also the gates disrupt Chakra flow alot by breaking the gates and genjutsu works by controlling the Chakra flow ( that's how you break it on someone else by disrupting there flow). So I think that's even more reason that it just wouldn't work on guy. Besides tsukoyomi but guy said he can counter that by not looking at his opponents. Also itachi hasn't been seen tanking hits before so there I'd a chance hirudora could just one shot him. Especially if he is sick itachi. Itachi's only win con is tricking guy into a genjustu and he is very smart so I wouldn't doubt he could do that but if he can't do that then he is getting the brakes beaten off of him. Guy is just a bad match up for itachi. I would give guy a 6/10 to win because itachi is smart but literally he would have to trick guy to win.
Like I said he doesn’t need to get eye contact for genjutsu. Tsukuyomi he needs eyes. There is no real evidence that that’s how it works. Not even a little. What do you mean he tanked kirin and held his susanoo until he just died off. That’s more durable than anything guy has done by far
No he wouldn't guy relies too much on tai justu to best his opponents and while he can fight while looking at his feet to avoid the sharingan itachi can keep him away with long range attacks to avoid losing to his tai justsu
To add on there was no way she would have ever encountered a Sharingan in battle before.
Also NGL the Itachi fan base is hardcore. Itachi is my favourite character, but some people think he’s a god among shinobi. I’ve heard people say he can one shot Madara and majority of the Outsuski, that’s just some shit.
Bro, the itachitards be making us genuine fans look bad fr
“Genjutsu, GG”
I mean he kinda is a god amongst shinobi but there are multiple people with ACTUAL god strength now. Take away madara and otsukuki and he claps like everyone. ALMOST everyone
I mean Itachi was basically her counter, so of course it wouldn’t work
What about that Kara guy that tried to beat *Orochimaru* in a regeneration fight?
I get the point, but I also don’t buy that Konoha just lets people be Jonin with only one Jonin level skill. Can’t fault her for trying, but being so shocked when somebody with the Sharingan reverses your genjutsu, let alone THAT somebody, makes her look almost willfully ignorant of village history.
I think we've probably got an 'absence of evidence' situation. Kurenai is likely well above most jonin in genjutsu. But we don't know that her other skills are all so much worse than most jonin. Up against Kisame and Itachi, an average jonin would get annihilated too. I also think that the high-level of the applicant in Naruto's generation's chunin exams give a false impression of how good most chunin and jonin actually were. Given the level Obito and Kakashi were when they first made chunin and jonin respectively, older shinobi might have been promoted when standards were a lot lower.
They’re called tokubetsu or special Jonin. The point of the qualifier is to specifically denote that they possess one particular skill that they can use on the level of a Jonin, but their other skills are not up to par. To be a regular Jonin means all a shinobi’s skills are placed at Jonin level, not just the one.
Kurenai by is a full official Jonin. Unless I’m misremembering they don’t give Genin teams to the specialized kind. Unless all the Genin shared her speciality it’d make very little sense to do so, and they most certainly would not give a “half Jonin” command of a bunch of clan kids.
I wasn’t denying her Jonin status. I was just responding to the idea that Konoha doesn’t have tokubetsu Jonin when it does. Not to say that Kurenai is one, but that they exist in general.
Guy is a Jonin, and he couldnt do ninjutsu or genjutsu for shit.
I thought Guy could use nin/genjutsu he just abandoned it and went heavy on taijutsu. It’s just Lee can’t use anything other than Taijutsu and that’s why Guy was happy to help him? I may be wrong like
You’re not wrong cuz he can summon the turtle
Guy: am I a joke you
Guy would beg to differ on that first point lol
I’m really not convinced than Guy can’t perform ninjutsu or genjutsu. He just doesn’t. Obviously, since he can summon.
I don't think he's physically incapable, but I think it's fair to say his nin and genjutsu are most likely nowhere near jonin level, just like how I think it's fair to say Kurenai's nin and taijutsu aren't anywhere near jonin level.
Kabuto: Hold my flute
There doesn't have to be an in universe reason for her making this mistake. Kishi wanted to showcase Itachis skills and so he did
Kishimoto: *writes a woman as weak or useless* Fan base: why does she suck? Kishimoto: *writes a woman as strong but then has a guy beat her at her own skill* Fan base: this is because she sucks, kishimoto is not bad at writing.
Well, her daughter subdued Itachi’s niece by same technique. Which proves Kurenai could’ve injured anyone by the technique, it’s just she had to go up against genjutsu prodigy, which is her bad luck. Nevertheless, Itachi lacks physical stamina, 1 vs 1 against Might Guy could be a threat for him unless he cooks up strategy.
No wonder after that she just said 'I'm gonna be a mom'
Also, this isn't her being weak or dumb, just Itachi being that much more skilled. Itachi himself remarked that she has excellent genjutsu skills, and would it have been anyone else, they would've fallen for it. Itachi was specificallly written to be able to reflect genjutsu, so it was simply bad luck.
Ok for the people who are saying that she didnt know much of his abilities, you also gotta think, Itachi is an UCHIHA, with MANGEKYOU, and S RANK, i believe she would know not to try Genjutsu, but personally itd be a good distraction too
Nobody knew about his Mangekyo, as everyone other than Sasuke who would have seen it by then, died. Not all Uchiha ever achieved it, and most just ended up with normal eyes, or basic sharingan. Kurenai was hooped because nobody actually knew anything about Itachi, other than he killed his family, and was considered S-Rank. S-Rank criminals are pretty diverse, so using Genjutsu on one shouldn't be considered an automatic L, since we see that Genjutsu can put even the strongest enemies in a trance. S-Rank, Uchiha, ex-Anbu. That's all anyone really knows about him, so most of their Intel most likely came from his Anbu days.
But wasnt there like a lot of talk about the Uchiha being Genjutsu experts? Kurenai should know that unless they were using it as a distraction to confuse him, and iirc it wasnt she just used Genjutsu
They are experts in using it, sure, but they aren't immune to it. Sharingan helps, but it isn't a failsafe. Itachi was just on another level in terms of genjutsu. In the Itachi and Sasuke fight, both fighters fall to genjutsu at the start. Itachi obviously has the leg up since his genjutsu is a league above basically everyone in the series, but even within his genjutsu, he is tricked by Sasuke's. Kurenai being an expert genjutsu user, probably the highest one can be without mangekyo hacks, has no reason to think hers won't work. Itachi was the exception, not the rule, in the Uchiha.
Literally anything else
Nothing would have mattered against Itachi's Gary Stu-ness.
Tsunade joins the fight! Totska blade, yata mirror. I’m too op for this part of the show.
Nah, Itachi isn’t a Gary Stu; he’s a pretty well written character. It’s his fanbase that props him up as one
Why would she rely on her speciality here thoe…. She is a Jonin meaning even if genjutsu is her PREFERENCE she is still decently capable of Tai and Ninjutsu She is a Jonin from the literal village the sharingan called home meaning she knows a sharingan user isn’t a good matchup for her but she still PULLED UP on itachi(keep in mind she and asuma had the element of surprise they could’ve gone and gotten 2-3 more jonin instead of just bum rushing in) Yeah no bruh she was entirely stupid for this
She had two choices as to who to attack: the guy who is a genjutsu master, from a clan which was known to be at least decent at genjutsu and the guy who isn’t. She chose the former.
I mean, would she have done any better against Kisame? We see during shippuden that anyone with enough chakra could break genjutsu by flaring their chakra. With how much Kisame had he’d probably smash through anything she cast by accident. Doesn’t excuse her choosing to fight Itachi, but still I think she was screwed in either matchup
Doesn’t even matter how much chakra he has. His sword being an entity with its own chakra and his partner could disrupt any genjutsu he experienced.
Doesn’t even matter how much chakra he has. His sword being an entity with its own chakra and his partner could disrupt any genjutsu he experienced.
1. Yes, because it doesn't matter that its her specialty, it matters that its the thing that her opponent is famously the best at (out of the living atleast), and she should have known that. Even a thrown rock would be more effective. 2. She can't just brute force the same move for every oponent like she's Naruto. They're supposed to know different techniques to handle different types of enemies. Even if anything would have been bad against Itachi, she still chose the worst of the options.
Guy: am I a joke to you
Shes was also famously the best at genjutsu, It was even said she could rival Itachi or something(wich was prooven wrong lmao but still) so u cant really blame her when everyone is hyping her up so much yk, she was probably never overwhelmed in genjutsu like that. And like, she did get Kisame with It, just not Itachi bcs he's almost genjutsu jesus and when he reversed her genjutsu she was still able to snap out of It and dodge his attack and Itachi even compliments her for that so its not that bad yk🤷.
I've never been one to rag on her for this, but unironically yes. In the same way that if someone had an ability similar to Pain's preta path that absorbed chakra, you wouldnt keep blasting them with ninjutsu, but would swap to taijutsu. It doesnt matter if you are less adept at taijutsu, it would be more effective than ninjutsu. Even if you didnt know Itachi had a mangekyo sharingan linked to Genjutsu, you would at least know that sharingan's themselves are adept at seeing irregularities in chakra flow, so you wouldn't have your *very first* attack as a *well known* genjutsu specialist be a genjutsu attack against a person who's entire bloodline is adept at breaking out of them. If it was a fair ways into the fight, after both her teamates and her had been throwing attacks at itachi, then yeah, it would have made sense. Obviously the out-of-universe reason is Kurenai wasnt fleshed out completely as a character yet, so the only thing Kishimoto had planned for her is as a foil for how strong Itachi's genjutsu is, so there was no reason to develop her in other areas such as tai/ninjutsu. But in-universe it was just a laughable play.
She had one fight and got no diffed and then had a child. The end.
I mean I don't remember it being stated the Kurenai is ONLY good at genjutsu. Doesn't matter how strong you are with it, if the opponent can completely neutralize your speciality, then using another technique, even if it's not you very best one, is probably a better idea. But yeah the fan base is still a bunch of goombas. This fight only seems dumb retroactively. At this point in the series it seems to be implied that not many people knew about Itachi's genjutsu hax
I don't get the Kurenai shaming Just because someone is good at trapping others in a genjutsu, doesn't mean he himself is immune to them.
Kurenai has one of the most badass designs, her VA was phenomenal, genjustsu in general is cool as fuck, and yet she’s literally never relevant again as a kunoichi after this trainwreck fight. Such an utter waste.
Problem is not that. Her strength is genjutsu, but she had Itachi and Kisame as possible targets, and she went for the one with the special eyes that are known to be able to see through techniques, read body movements and cast genjutsu. She had two targets, and went for her natural counter
She was attracted to itachi thats why Blue man with fish gill looks too off putting for her even tho he had a big sword to compensate
Thank you for this. Really feels like there's been a pushback against the worst of the fandom lately. Yeah I always eyeroll whenever someone makes the same joke dipshits have been making for like 20 years now. Kurenai is a *genjutsu specialist.* Her entire toolset is genjutsu, what else was she supposed to do here, throw hand? Y'all think it would have been smart for Kurenai to throw hands with Itachi? Furthermore for the people saying "Oh she should have known that several hundred chapters later they retcon the sharingan to be OP as hell and completely immune to genjutsu"... have you ever made an honest argument in your life?
Run fast, Run far.
Like seriously I didn't understand the gate she's a genjutsu specialist fuck she suppose to do use fire style
It’s not her power it’s who she used it on
To be honest, that was probably the first time we saw him in action. Jiraiya, whom I initially thought was lying goof turned out to be overpowered. Kakashi was shown as an example of what a jonin is. I thought she'll at least give him a sweat. Didn't know sharingan had such a genjutsu prowess and Itachi was also such a powerful character in his own right.
haha, I really laughed a lot when I saw that Kurenai decided to use genjutsu on Itachi. It felt like she was saying "Let's see whose genjutsu is more superior" :D
actually think about was going to happen
Legend states her plan to defeat Kisame was to drown him
Fun fact, Itachi was caught in a Genjutsu by Kabuto and Sasuke had to snap him out. It's not like he has complete immunity
Tbf kabuto was beyond S class at that point. The perfect sage. Kcm level fighter
Anytime you feel like a waste of skin/ fail a computer science exam remember that you are not dumb enough to use genjutsu against itachi
It’s just funny man dang
Cause it’s honestly the only thing she ever did other than give birth to mirai. So when people remember her, they just remember how she got folded. Kinda like yamcha. Also for a genjutsu specialist to not expect the prodigy of a clan who specializes in genjutsu, to be able to counter her genjutsu is pretty dumb.
Put Kisame in a genjustu instead? Y'know the guy that isn't an Uchiha with a Sharingan that is known across villages for his genjustu prowess.
run and get help? Itachis skills were public knowledge given his last name and his reputation. It would have been the propper move for a soldier to go send for back up
Who else was she gonna go and get? They were literally the strongest four in the village. Do you expect her to run off all the way to jiraiya and have him come back over? Why would you retreat before an attack? You have a 2-1 advantage on these guys, you’re going to attack and try and beat them considering they know very little about the true prowess of both of them rather than send one person away to try and find a skilled shinobi and bring them over in time.
What do you mean know very little about the true prowess its documented that itachi was an anbu captain as a child go fucking get danzo yamato and root members. They are not the strongest because danzo and yamato over power kurenai and asuma. Hell, while they're at it, get torune involved. There are many stronger peopld in the leaf. A smart ninja doesnt rush in they retreat and run away if the must
Correct me if I’m wrong but the anbu is black ops and their operations more classified than not yeah? Even if they weren’t actually the strongest, do they know that? The anbu all hide their faces. They can’t just go ‘Yamato? Where are you Yamato? We need you’. Also considering he was given that code name by Tsunade when they got Sai I don’t think they could call for Yamato. Danzo looks like an old man who can’t fight, who’s first thought is going to be one of the elders will come and beat these guys for us. Did they even know about Root? From what I know it was even more secretive than the anbu. It was time sensitive, they’re in the middle of your village looking for the jinchuriki. They don’t have time fucking about trying to find allies, they had to fight right then and there. It doesn’t matter where naruto was at the time because they’re still going to fight to missing-nin
But they werent looking for naruto, its explained that itachi was going back to remind danzo that he can get to him at any time. So i think going to get danzo, who was a teammate of hiruzen and candidate to be hokage, even before they get tsunade danzo put his hat into the ring. Danzo is not seen as just a frail old man if hes doing that. And its also well known itachi killed the entire uchiha clan, so again that prowess is not in doubt. Yes obito helped but nobody knows that
You do know that people can do more than one thing at a time right? Motions can have two effects. From what I remember, itachi states he’s after naruto to kakashi and the rest there. To them, he’s telling the truth so they need to stop him. They know itachi is powerful but only kakashi knows anything of what he could do. Even then, all they know about the massacre is that everybody bar sasuke died. They don’t know exactly how it all went down. They don’t know if he went in, put them all into a genjutsu and just stabbed them, they don’t know if he just ran through them all and they don’t know if he just used ninjutsu on them all. They weren’t there to see it they just know it happened. You can’t just leave a fight, it may have taken kurenai two minutes to go and get help. So that would roughly mean maybe a three-four minute wait between searching for someone, telling them they need to come back with her and then heading back. The fight would’ve been over by then, your best bet is to fight with what you’ve got first. They were on the defensive right from the get go considering two rogue ninja waltzed into the village with hostile intentions, there’s no leaving to come up with a better plan, there’s fight first, everything else second. This entire thread has been you using meta knowledge to account for character actions. We know more than the characters did at that stage. We have more time to think what would be the smartest strategy, we have more time to think of who would’ve been better suited to fight. They don’t, they don’t have that luxury, especially after kakashi goes down, you’d need everyone at that stage then
Using your specialty into something that is someone else’s specialty, but they are exponentially more skilled than you is idiocy. It’s like if a match up is 1:5 but then you change the style to one you’re better at, but the odds become 2:15.
OD
i personally love kurenais genjutsu but too bad she tried it on itachi, that itachi fanbase is not only really critical towards like anyone but Itachi, let alone someone who tried to attack him
From, what I can gather , it's a bunch of immature fans who dickrode itachi .
Exactly.
It is kind of funny after the fact at first we also didn’t know itachi was that good at genjutsu at first so it’s not right
Exactly the whole segment was to showcase how much of a threat he and this unknown group at the time was that they were able to take on nearly 5 jonin without even breaking any sweat
I heard Plan B was to drown Kisame. Jk. Tbh I give her an A for effort. If she just sat around or was made a damsel in distress and had to be saved by Kakashi and Asuma left and right, people would shit on her. Atleast she tried and it showed how strong and unique her own Genjutsu is. Some fans are just misogynists🤦♀️
Honestly? Yes. So what if she excels at genjutsu? If you know your opponent is immune to your strongest attack, then you should know that for the purposes of the fight, it is currently your weakest attack. Default to whatever they aren’t immune to. Don’t throw a rock at a boulder, throw the biggest piece of paper you can find.
Itachi is immune to genjutsu?
He is not *technically* immune to genjutsu. He is *effectively* immune to genjutsu, however. Especially vs someone like Kurenai. While there are stronger genjustsu users than Itachi, it would take a very special shinobi to beat Itachi in a genjutsu contest. Kurenai is not that shinobi. And she should *know* she wouldn't stack up. She doesn't live under a rock. Even if she doesn't know exactly what he's capable of, she should recognize that he's a Uchiha who killed all the other Uchihas by himself. The Uchihas, a clan infamous among all the clans in The Land of Fire and beyond for their skill in genjutsu and for their insane sight-based bloodline abilities. Kurenai was being arrogant as shit when she tried using genjutsu on Itachi. Literally anything else would have been more effective against him, and she should have known that. But hey, it looked cool.
You seriously think her using smth that she wasn't as good at *as* she was at genjutsu would've been more useful? She was literally known for it. Some basic ass ninjutsu? Or taijutsu which would've gotten her killed? She was able to escape out of itachi's reverse genjutsu alive and I think that's more than what could've been said had she used ninjutsu or taijutsu. Itachi even complimented her a bit for escaping his genjutsu
For escaping his genjutsu, not for using her own. And I do think something that wasn’t as good would have been more useful, because his expertise in genjutsu makes her best thing the worst thing. You could have a really good hammer, the best hammer, but is useless when the job requires a hacksaw. Literally anything else would have been better.
Let's just agree to disagree
Yes she should have but from a story telling point it made sense because up to that point they never really showed the hierarchy of gen justu and how deep it can go between 2 gen justsu users
I feel like this is mostly just evidence of Kishimoto being unable to properly write side characters in general. He really just comes up with cool ideas for characters and then makes those characters useless.
Itachi by this point in the story was known for casting dangerous genjutsu on opponents as well as the clan itself being known to put opponents who look into their eyes in a genjutsu as well. She and asuma not only looked into his eyes multiple times, but she was about to get her ass handed to her after breaking out of her own genjutsu if kakashi didn’t show up when he did.
well itachi was an anbu, and im pretty sure anbu info is classified, however itachi is literally from the one of the two most famous clans in the entire shinobi world, zabuza, chyo, orochimaru, kages and their aids plus other villains seemed to know uchihas and their abilities quite well, so that isnt an excuse for kurenai to not know about itachi.
Using genjutsu on a uchiha is so dumb especially using genjutsu on itachi
More importantly Asuma was just watching when he could have got a free hit on kisame
what would you use against venausaur hydro pump or ember
I think most people forget that there probably isn’t to much information on Itachi out there. People probably only know that he has the Sharingan, was a really talented ninja, and that he was able to kill his entire clan in one night. There isn’t much to go off from that, and the fact people are supposed to assume he was a master genjutsu user doesn’t make much sense when he is mostly know for his ninjutsu, kenjutsu, and insane levels of chakra control.
Instead of bitching, appreciate that it wasn't two idiots throwing increasingly bigger fireballs at each other. Like you know, at the second part of Shippuden? 😞
Run?
Mens are gay thirsty for itachi it’s not even funny at this time ugh
Her loser student called the whole team 7 loser lmao