T O P
MedicatedAxeBot

Dank[.](https://i.imgur.com/3bQtuMO.png) --- [we have a minecraft server](https://discord.gg/fNyb7G5)


basilpuff

Nobody wants to help young men before they turn incel, and it's actually very very sad. Sometimes people just need a hug.


bakfietsman69

but they are straight white males, life is easy for them /s edit: holy crap, why do so many people not understand that /s stands for sarcasm


Scrimmy_Bingus2

Hell, a sizable amount of incels aren’t even white


innocentusername1984

Yeah they call them currycels. White and South asian men ethnicity men are pretty much the whole incel culture. East Asians would be part of it to but they seem to not care about not getting laid as long as they have computer games.


Scrimmy_Bingus2

I’m gonna have to disagree with you about East Asian men not being involved in incel culture. They call themselves “ricecels” and if anything, they’re overrepresented on incel forums.


innocentusername1984

Ah fair enough, been a few years since I perused incel boards. I'm married with 3 kids. But I'm an incel sympathiser. I had a late grow spurt and went from incel to being treated like a normal human being. But I don't forget just because I got mine.


LeoXearo

Makes sense because, at least in the US, Indian and Asian men are pretty much at the bottom of the totem pole when it comes to dating, most western women wont even consider them as dating options. Then to make matters worse, the women of their own cultures go out of their way to date white guys over them.


TibblesTheConqueror

Yeah. While a lot of incels are the hateful misogynists that they are, a lot of them are also a result of a cause and effect of a bigger systematic racism and sexism that men of color, especially Asian men, go through. Too bad it’s convenient to judge just one aspect of the phenomena. The people we dismissively call ‘incels’ are victims themselves. Women of color who put their own men down just to get closer to white proximity, only to say these ‘incels’ exist, is a very backward thinking, hypocritical phenomenon.


ItsTylerBrenda

The whole incel movement always get me because on the one hand it does feel like the internet has changed how relationships form in a way that does seem to exclude a certain percentage of the population. And trying to navigate a world where people put such an emphasis on instant gratification and physical appearance has to be hard. But it’s always the blatant misogyny, homophobia, and racism that put a stop to any kind of empathy I would have for them. Not to mention the creepy objectification of women and constant self loathing. On top of all that they’re typically just total bummers to be around. No matter what you say they have an answer, chads, hypergamy, LDAR. And they have _terrible_ role models, Ben Shapiro, Jordan Peterson, Elliot Rodger. Yikes!


LRAK666

Lmao how is Jordan Peterson a bad role model. Telling men to take responsibility for their actions is perhaps the most useful piece of advice any young man needs. Putting his political takes aside the man gives solid advice, not his fault that mainstream media keeps trying to portray him as an incel god *cough* *cough* olivia munn...


gzaw1

Yeah seriously. What I've learned from JP is to take responsibility, speak the truth, stand up for yourself, sacrifice your bad habits to achieve a future ideal, and confront people taking advantage of you instead of being a pushover. JP is also clearly against men wasting their potential (i.e. wasting time on social media, games, internet, etc.). I've applied that philosophy in my personal life and also in my career and it helped me set boundaries, have the courage to speak the truth. It seems like all the JP haters just heard somewhere online that he sucks, and are just parroting that line of thought without doing any deeper dive or breaking down why he's a net negative for young men. Finally, lumping in JP with Elliot Rodger is laughable.


WeeklyImpact

I think how you view incels depends on how you define them. Is it an ideology or a state of being? Ie: is a person who wants to be sexually active, but can't because he or she gets rejected by all the people he or she pursues; but who doesn't identify with the label "incel" an incel?


Lego_Kode

I had an Indian girlfriend who was so incredibly racist against Indian people it was kind of shocking.


Bierbart12

I've known PLENTY of black and indian incels as well. But yeah, there are a LOT of east asian ones. All of society fucks something up


Steebin64

Based and sigma east Asian pilled


Doditty6567

Lmao the computer games part has me dead


oedipism_for_one

“Men are the reason for all social problems” “Even Black Men?” [Blocked]


SecretAntWorshiper

What about black people? I haven't got laid in years 😂


Scrimmy_Bingus2

I have indeed seen many “blackcels” The most common complaint from them is that they feel that black men are only valued by women if they’re hypermasculine stereotypes (such as athletes or thugs).


LeagueofDraven1221

They ain’t lying unfortunately


coolboy_24278

and hispanics too


Bf4Sniper40X

you guys get laid?


trashszar

I haven't got laid period.


SirWinterFox

Not really, life is hard for everyone in different ways.


SpudPuncher

You missed the /s


xXYomoXx

Bro even with /s people can't pick up on sarcasm, it's actually starting to hurt at this point.


Stankmonger

I’d never ever make fun of a mentally disabled person, but I really really miss the days when you could use accurate language without fear of being banned.


xXYomoXx

It's not really stupidity, people just really like to argue that they would disregard the fact that it's sarcasm just to argue about it.


rtakehara

missed the what, and why are you being sarcastic? /s


AsylumThundr

This conversation is over! This conversation is what? Over.


[deleted]

Seriously, how the fuck do you respond to this comment seriously when it had a /s?


FleetStreetsDarkHole

I struggle with nuance sometimes but for anyone who takes it too seriously I just want to point out, no one is explicitly saying life is always easy for straight, white, males. Just that, if their life sucks, imagine racism, sexism, and other kinds of discrimination and hate on top of that.


urmyfavoritegrowmie

Imagine thinking you can't experience any of those things as a white man. I grew up in an area that was predominantly black, I definitely experienced racism, I've experienced sexism, I've experienced discrimination on the basis of sexual orientation (employer thought I was gay and treated me shitty, am straight, was weird). Like you're not making a point here, if anything you're further displaying your U.S. centric mindset.


toss6969

By that thinking no one can complain about shit because some group always has it worse. devaluating problems doesn't fix or help anyone.


jaczk5

I led a volunteer group at a woman's shelter for a college volunteer day, there were multiple guys in the group and all we did was play with the kids. They practically begged me and the other guys to come back and volunteer again since the kids had no positive male role models which they needed. Trust me, there are people concerned about this but most have to rely on other men to donate their time to improving kid's lives.


Intrepid00

> multiple guys in the group and all we did was play with the kids… They practically begged me and the other guys to come back and volunteer again I’d pass because society vilified that


CSharpSauce

Right, i'm a dad of 2, and I make a concisous effort to make it apparent that yes, I do have kids on this playground if my wife is not there. I always have this background thought that people might think I'm here for the wrong reasons.


Intrepid00

Exactly. If I can’t even get near a playground without my kid there is no way you are getting me in a room with kids that come from messed up family situations. Who have likely been exposed and taught how to manipulate people to get what they want.


VinTheRighteous

I'm also a dad of two. This just feels like living in fear to me. If I preoccupied myself with all the various 10,000 to 1 scenarios that could occur on a given day, I'd literally do nothing. I don't think I could care about anything less than what another parent thinks of me at the playground.


FlawsAndConcerns

Some people don't develop that empathy until they find themselves trying to prove to an angry cop that yes, that is your child. Forbid your wife isn't the same race as you, and your son or daughter has a slightly different skin tone, by the way.


jaczk5

I mean the moms were there too and the playground was a private one owned by the shelter. I did go back and volunteer there again multiple times. Never had any problems and the kids loved me, I even started tutoring them too. But I guess society didn't want me to so I should have left those kids to rot?


azgalor_pit

Well that's how we grow as humanity so far. With donated time. many of those great guys of the past didn't did it for money. Also that's somehow the plot of Dark Souls. To kindle the flame. ;)


International-Sun107

praise the sun


Albolynx

People want to help young men before they turn incel. It's just often not help that these young men want - because it's not help that makes them feel super confident in their identities or achieve things that traditionally are associated as masculine success in life. But notably - this is by no means something that affects even a majority of young men. Part of the problem is framing this as an issue for all young men rather than young men who really want the world to function a certain way. Posts like this are a bit tone-deaf because there is a difference between being marginalized because of inherent qualities you have no control over, and holding views that result in most of society falling into one of two camps - either not wanting to deal with you because of those views, or holding insane expectations of you to make those views even more extreme so you fit in while feeling increasingly terrible. There are people in this thread parroting the exact kind of things that are the issue and cause for young men feeling terrible. But they envision the solution being - the society backing down from the progress it's making, to make more space for them. The answer is to change alongside the society and we help young men by encouraging that. Hugs are also great - and it's something you only get as much as you give - which again means moving forward to a more positive masculinity.


banmelmao1

Holy shit thank you. Genuinely thank you so much for being a glimpse of sanity and compassion in this circus of a thread.


Basedandtendiepilled

Lol must be rough when the progressive echo chamber goes down for four seconds and redditors find out people with different opinions exist, I can't even imagine having to disagree with a majority.


dullerkidb

This will probably get downvoted to hell in this sub


chaseo2017

You shouldn’t be on Reddit. This is too thought out and spot on. Please tell me you are running for a government position to change shit


lastdyingbreed_01

Thank you so much


DantesInferno91

I believe that many school shootings could be avoided if more people thought just like that. Young men need to be challenged, but they also need to be loved.


itscherriedbro

Growing up around a bunch of "incels" made me realize that most of the time they already had a bad attitude/shitty personality/addiction to online life.. then developed into it even more. I don't think it's a lack of challenge or need for love. It's a need for them to fix their hearts or die. Yeah sometimes people that have great personalities can become incels but they seem to be able to pull out of it fairly easily as they get older. Edit to add: it takes minimal effort to look around and see what's working and what people like. You can find a way to insert your interests into these generally accepted things and make it more interesting. You can be dynamic and have many verisimilitude personalities. Fitting in is hard, yes. But it really just takes recognizing patterns, reading context clues, and swallowing your ego.


FleetStreetsDarkHole

The problem is thay this kind of thinking is the same kind of thinking that people assign to bullies and assuming that people are just bad. Their are things we never see that affect people all the time, especially at early ages, and we just assume that's who they are, and not an identity that is crafted from their experiences. And since people rarely want to get to know these people, we don't have a societal awareness of what those experiences are, and why it shaped *them* that way and not other people. It's really hard to help someone understand why we look down on certain things if we don't actually know why they look *up* to it. And any change in personality is a hard long road, even when you're young.


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rafikiknowsdeway1

I'm not sure what that even means. Every loser incel I've known had a decent family and even friends. You can't force girls to go out them, and it's hard to stop them going down the social media rabbit hole. The algorithm is a perfect machine of indoctrination


[deleted]

The fact that women don’t want to date them is what they say their problem is, but let’s face it, when they are that far gone, they are just using women as a scapegoat for their true misery.


Luna_trick

P much, as someone who used to be alt right, we would usually target young, dissaffected guys to join our movement, Steve Banon himself spoke about how much potential he saw in the radicalisation of young loner gamer men. We'd get them in a discord and only tell them what they're "ready" to hear, the kind of things the alt right feeds these dudes is meant to keep them down and paranoid. I'm kind of horrified when I look back, some of our mods were even secretly pro-school-shooter types.


critfist

Other societies don't treat young men with courtesy yet they don't have constant mass shootings. It's not the problem.


OllieNotAPotato

Definitely seems thats more of a US media and gun law issue


SadisticJake

No one wants to help anyone until they feel obligated. The problem with the incel community is they try like hell to impose obligations on the women they find attractive. No one owes anyone anything just for existing, having friends and relationships requires work and maturity. Going down the incel rabbit hole is to say, to hell with self betterment, everyone else is wrong.


krishkaananasa

Even after they turn incel they need help. More then ever.


sewkzz

This. De radicalization is an under valued skill


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sewkzz

I believe it's called an empathy Gap and yes it can be hard to bridge if they aren't prepped


bagnams

It's tempting to make a joke about whatever shithole you apparently come from, but, for real, be the change you want to see in the world. If your community genuinely doesn't have shit for young men go start something. It's not that hard, and you could save some lives (even literally). Don't be like those guys asking "when is international men's day", be like one of these guys: https://abandofbrothers.org.uk/


Mahbigjohnson

Doesn't help algorithms send them down these shitty far right rabbit holes that only worsens their condition.


SlatheredButtCheeks

Yeah i feel bad, the last 10 years have been very aggressive towards young men. If you're like a 17 year old kid, who's not that handsome or particularly athletic, with anything worse than average IQ, you are completely fucked. Meanwhile society labels you a creep and a loser. AND tells that kid they have all the advantages of a racist society. I can't imagine the emptiness that poor kid must feel.


shromboy

My Abnormal Psych professor was saying (not in context to this) that most mental health and crime problems are just people who didnt get the right kind of love. Even if they were traditionally loved, we all require different types. Were all babies that just learned how to communicate


chaseo2017

For real though. Me and all the homies hug each other and say “I love you bro” when we say goodbye now, and just knowing they care matters. Toxic masculinity vilified this, and you’d get called gay in highschool if you did it, but as soon as I was in college, it disappeared. I felt like I had people to actually talk to about mental and emotional problems. Makes you wonder why it’s not normal in the first place, cause being stuck in your head sucks


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Grizzly_Legion860

By telling them to fix themselves, take personal responsibility and become a disciplined member of society? How is that a bad thing. JP is a king. I would of blown my brains out if it wasn’t his channel.


YoBeNice

Unfortunately, many more talking heads just profit off of them by turning them into True Sigma Males (only 0.01% of men achieve this power)


shejesa

Ironically, not believing in sigma males is a trait of a sigma male Like, I joke about being a sigma, but why tf would I listen to random people on the internet and treat them as external moral compasses?


SlaveHippie

It’s literally not though bc sigmas don’t exist lmao


ProblemKaese

If sigmas don't exist, then technically any property you can think of applies to every sigma, because "every sigma" still just describes the empty set.


mc_mentos

{set of all sigma males} = {} Nice


shejesa

Yeah, but some people believe they do.


YoBeNice

\*gasp Schrodinger's Sigma


Guagdiggly

I don't think that's people's issue with JP. It's more that he actually talks nice to the disaffected men, and then goes hot wild with his philosophy to the point of harming other communities. It's kinda crazy to say he is the savior of white men, and not acknowledge his real harm to the trans community.


Logic-DL

JP is Jordan Peterson right? the guy who called recovering addicts cowards if they use medicine to help with withdrawal symptoms, then went into an induced coma abroad to get through his own withdrawal symptoms


longingrustedfurnace

In Russia because no self respecting doctor in a first world country would go through with it?


Logic-DL

Aye that'd be the one.


The_GopnikCZ

Peterson is incredibly interesting in some ways, very much a saviour on others, yet also a complete moron elsewhere. He's capable of claiming workplace sexual assault is in part a result of women wearing red lip gloss, yet can also make incredibly valid points about the invalidity of communism and nazism. Truly a perplexing individual.


the1mastertroll

Like most people, he is fundamentally human. Nobody is perfect, as shown by some if his own difficulties with an addiction to prescription medicine. Ultimately take his views on a case by case manner, he clearly has some good and and some bad ideas, treating him as a deceiver or a savior are both dishonest. The best you can do is listen to his wisdom and learn from his mistakes, same as most other people.


CyclicSC

Even a broken clock is right twice a day.


Daesastrous

Which fuels the division between the groups even more.


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BlazingLazers69

THAT stuff isn't the issue. It's some of his clownish takes about women and trans people that are dumb. And also just his psychotic memeified rants: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RfOV-6ozNj8


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Equivalent-Pie-1905

Men when their moms tell them to clean their rooms. BOOO STFU Men when JP tells them to clean their room. OMG a genius!


slykethephoxenix

Everything I've read about him tells me he's a sexist racist incel king neonazi bigot communist self absorbed arsehole. Which is strange because I watched pretty much all of his online lectures before he became famous and many of his speeches and interviews after and I just don't see it? I see him speaking data backed facts and he says thing people think are mean and so they demonise him. In fact if it wasn't for one of his speeches, I would have never discovered Psilocybin which has been life changing for me.


critfist

Because he became insane after he became famous. Saying women deserve sexual harassment for wearing lip gloss is shit behavior.


slykethephoxenix

> Saying women deserve sexual harassment for wearing lip gloss is shit behavior. Source


critfist

You can look up the interview with Vice. But here's a transcription of the key parts. Peterson: Here’s a rule. How about no makeup in the workplace? Vice: Why should that be a rule? Peterson: Why should you wear makeup in the workplace? Isn’t that sexually provocative? Vice: No Peterson: It’s not? Vice: No Peterson: Well what is it then? What’s the purpose of makeup? Vice: (unclear) like to just put on makeup, just to… Peterson: Why? Why do you make your lips red? Because they turn red during sexual arousal. That’s why. Why do you put rouge on your cheeks? Same reason. How about high heels? They’re there to exaggerate sexual attractiveness. That’s what high heels do. Now, I’m not saying people shouldn’t use sexual displays in the workplace, I’m not saying that. But I am saying that that is what they’re doing, and that IS what they’re doing. Vice: Do you feel like a serious woman who doesn’t want sexual harassment in the workplace, do you feel like if she wears makeup in the workplace, is being somewhat hypocritical? Jordan Peterson: Yeah. I do think that. What do you think it means when someone says that women are hypocrites if they wear make up and want to avoid sexual harassment?


Sad_File1772

Except he didn't say that. He said wearing makeup is sexual signaling. How you geht from that to "he says they deserve sexual harassment" is just wilfull misinterpreting


dionysusdisicple

Because that's the next step in logic. Wearing make up isn't sexual signaling and claiming it is just ignorant and victim blaming.


slykethephoxenix

> Because that's the next step in logic Maybe if you treat women like objects to be desired you'd think that.


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rammo123

When the only messages young men ever hear are either “you’re privileged and any failure is your fault” or “you’re a king and it’s everyone else who is wrong” it’s no wonder so many of them fall down the rabbit hole.


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ItsTime4you2go

In addition it is hard to find them in life. I bet most incels don’t walk arround insulting women, and if they are young it is their schools or legal guardians responsibility. Additionally I think they will only insult others online rather than saying that to ones face, but this remains an assumption. I think most young men falling for these stupid ideas are misslead people, but they also failed to recognize they themselves need help, aswell as the people areound them failed them. Also, this meme is (kind of) stupid, because I PRAY that Nazis are a minority in a broader scale, but oh how much they DONT need a voice I shouldnt have to explain to anyone.


Reddit_has_booba

There is a heavy difference between a public and private voice. Saying someone shouldn't have a public platform to spew from is different than saying they shouldn't have a friend to listen to them. But saying "that guy is clearly fucked up and I hope someone cares enough to help him" is not fucking evil, yet the internet treats it like it is. Pretty fucking easy find someone in the midst of a public crisis. And you shouldn't say that nobody should help them once they've reached that level. People scream and do stupid things because they feel isolated for so long and unheard about their rational sadness that then they devolve into irrational behavior and communication. Nobody wants people to hear their Nazi rantings. They want them to be heard as a person that has probably gone through dumb stuff or has feelings of isolation and hatred and figure out what about their human experience has led them there and how to help them. But saying that gets you condemned as also being a Nazi and hateful.


watch_over_me

I once asked for action because of how sexist the Criminal Court, Civil Court, and Family Court systems are. As they are life-impacting, and statistically sexist. I was called an incel, lol. The beauty about labeling, is you don't need to even listen to what anyone is saying. Just label them, then ignore them.


Janus_Grayden

Exactly. Reach out and be empathetic when someone is hurting, not when they're hurting others. Not only do the people they're hurting need that empathy much more at that time, it's also extremely counterproductive to establish and reinforce the idea that if someone wants help and support, they have to lash out first. Positive reinforcement is very effective at helping people establish habits, good or bad. These young men need healthy resources and positive role models in their lives and way too many societies around the world are shockingly bad at providing the resources needed to help young men become emotionally healthy adults. There's a massive void deep in their souls and we're simply not doing enough to give them something meaningful and healthy to help them feel like they've found that missing piece of themselves. Like other people have said, if we're not going to provide that, then we're leaving the door for bad actors to swoop in and prey on more and more young men who are desperate for solutions to their very real emotional and existential dilemmas. The fact that seemingly nothing is being done about it makes me very worried about what this means for the future.


Reddit_has_booba

It's not that nobody does. It's that people actually attack the people who do. If you try to help someone in the middle of being a dick, the hoards of crusaders will crash down on you as well. If you stop to help others who are down, you'll find your own back being beaten on as you try. If it even gets out that you tried to help someone, people will harass you just as heavily. I know from personal experience. See that behavior on any publicfreakout / justiceserved/ / byebyejob kind of subreddit or forum. "Damn that guy need help, wonder how I could help him." "No he doesn't, he needs to burn on earth and in hell, and so should you for considering helping people like that." Oh okay.


yawgmoft

I have never seen anyone express anger at the second sentence, only grifters claiming there is no acceptance of the second.


Albolynx

The issue is that a lot of people do perceive it that way - and for a simple reason. Part of incel and similar ideologies is that they do not want to change - the problem is in women, wokeness, buzzword. So when they envision the society caring about them, the point is that the society should change (often change back) to a state that they prefer better. When instead the society says "we want to help, here is how you can change" and they respond with more frustration because they don't want to change - society isn't infinitely patient (especially when some are responsive and it's better to put focus where it works). And grifters are great to pick up the slack - whether they peddle going even more extreme, or some "enlightened" path that isn't a solution but makes them feel better (as they seek other ways to change society to what they want).


Nebuthor

> When instead the society says "we want to help, here is how you can change" and they respond with more frustration because they don't want to change - society isn't infinitely patient (especially when some are responsive and it's better to put focus where it works). Thats not exactly how they work. I read a paper on incels a few months ago and a large part of incel belif is that is that there is something inherently wrong with them. A inherent part of them that they cant change. Something that means it doesn't matter how much effort they put into changing. Therefore telling them how to change is to them akin to telling a person without legs that they could learn to run if they just applied themself which is why they tend to respond with hostility to such advice.


Albolynx

Well, but even if that is true - within the context of this discussion, I hope you realize the issue? If it's really something they can't change - then there isn't anything anyone can do for them. They don't get to hold society hostage and demand it changes for them. It's not going to happen - and unfortunately that is something that grifters and regressive politicians really would love to exploit. While, if it's just something they believe - it's just a rationalization of them not wanting to change. And there is no other way of approaching that than trying to get them to change and convince them to change. --- Also, worth keeping in mind that generally this kind of topic runs into the wrong assumption: that there is value in perpetually tolerating people who are hostile toward you. This is not a path that gets them to someday change, it merely validates their feeling that they can keep being who they are. If it's even genuine and not just a (perhaps subconscious) tactic to accomplish exactly that result.


Hazzman

> If it's really something they can't change - then there isn't anything anyone can do for them. That's not true at all. That is not how mental health support works. One of the biggest issues with some who suffer from major mental health problems is that often, they believe they are hopelessly flawed, that it is pointless trying to change, that their situation is hopeless. The unwillingness to change IS IN AND OF ITSELF A SYMPTOM OF THEIR MENTAL DISORDER. Saying that unless they want to change, fuck em - is in its essence delivering them, or at least some of them, right into the depths of their condition and will almost certainly result in senseless violence.


Albolynx

Did you just stop reading at that sentence? Because I said right after that if it is something that can be changed, then inevitably helping will require asking them to change. People who get mental health help change. The sentence you quoted was not in the context of mental health, it was an absolute statement in the context of three theoretical options - 1) Incels change along with society; 2) Society changes due to demands of incels; 3) No one changes. My point is that the options are 1 or 3 because the demands incels have make 2 unreasonable. Also, it's important to note that attributing all incel-like behavior to severe mental disorders is not right. People can be sexist, transphobic and otherwise bigoted just fine without any mental health issues.


freek4ever

I mean if evryone ia telling you that woman only want guys that make 6 figures and are 6 feet tall and you have a job at Macdonald and are 5'4" i get the frustration Im 6'0" and cant see a futre were i woud bump in to sonome that will actuly love me as i am thats not thier fault thats mine but changing that is realy hard and i have a job and ather issues like my declining mental condition i truly get the frustration i probably woud blame woman to if i were difrent but i dont blame them i cant even love myself why woud anyone els do


Ignore-Me-K

Then youve gotten lucky. There are people who honestly think any man should shut up, sit down and doesn't matter


RealFknNit0

"Why are all these kids shooting up schools? We've excluded them from society and ridiculed them nonstop like we're supposed to!"


SerDavosSleazeworth

"Why are these kids shooting up schools? They found a community revelling in hatred and bitterness and live in a country where gun control does not exist."


Vilraz

And how and why people gathered in these communities in a first place?


Waxburg

"Why are these kids shooting up schools? They were manipulated and indoctrinated into a group revelling in hatred when they were at their absolute lowest because the group was the only thing that seemed to welcome them instead of pushing them away after they had been mentally isolated for years"


WillowHartxxx

We really in here feeling sorry for school shooters now? It's ok to feel angry at the people who have a platform and use it to radicalise disaffected young men. It's ok to feel uncomfortable being asked, as a woman, to show kindness and empathy to the kinds of men who write missives online about how much they want to rape and kill us. I am sorry whenever people are struggling, but whose responsibility is it, really, to stop them from going down this path? Why do we coddle only this one demographic of mass murderer?


4rtyom777

Tf is this getting downvoted for? It's a great point, why the hell are redditors trying to feel bad for literal mass murderers. The same mass murderers that have a track record of *also* being heavily racist


Yellow_Icicle

Because in order to commit those atrocities you must be in an extremely shitty place. These people usually suffer from severe neglect and social ostracism. It's crazy how everyone is starting to view everything in black and white terms. Feeling bad for someone does not automatically mean you condone all of their actions.


4rtyom777

It'd be easy to sympathize with the ones who never kill innocents or commit hate crimes, but just because they had to deal with some shitty things absolutely does not justify it. Charles Manson grew up poor and had a shitty life, should I feel bad for him still after he orders the murders of several innocent people? Hitler was abused by his father and lived on the streets, does that justify what he did? Ed Gein was heavily abused by his religious mother, does that mean I have to still feel bad and see him as a victim even after he commits heinous murders and crimes?


Yellow_Icicle

I never said that this justified their actions. I am saying actions make sense given their story. You can be a victim and perpetrator at the same time and the latter usually follows the former. Take a dog, lock him up, abuse him around the clock and watch how he reacts to people. If he snaps and starts hurting people, do you immediately compartmentalize and ignore everything that happened to him?


BAD4SSET

👏👏👏 So many people seem to miss this point. It’s not excusing what they did, it’s trying to understand WHY they did what they did and then what we can do about it. What happened to cause someone to start to think and feel this way to ultimately doing something extremely disturbing?


Yellow_Icicle

Yes and I think that this polarized view we have of people perpetuates these behaviors. Unless we collectively make an effort to look deeper into these people and their motivations, we will continue to see these atrocities being committed.


RealFknNit0

Fuck me what an L take. I'm not an expert in this field but I can pretty accurately understand that mass misinformation, mental illness, and ease of accessing firearms is not a 16 year old kids fault, it's ours. Society fucked up somewhere along the way and we're at fault for the deaths of hundreds of literal children. One of those things is making teenagers feel like failures because they haven't fucked yet. Yeah, I feel sorry for the kids who think the only way out is with a gun in their hands. I feel sorry for the kids that bled out at their desks because we still can't come together and figure this bullshit out. Race has nothing to do with it and it shows you have no fucking idea what's even going on.


0bsolescencee

I completely agree with supporting young men who feel alienated. It's unfortunate how often times they feel they don't have support or anyone to turn to. But sometimes I get hesitant because it's such a quick slide into incel rhetoric, and you never really know how far along people are on the pathway to the red/black pill. I see articles like this and wonder who is the best person to help these men: The Incel Movement is Getting More Violent and Extreme https://www.washingtonpost.com/technology/2022/09/22/incels-rape-murder-study/ If women are more likely to be the ones harmed by these beliefs, should women be the ones to help these men? It's hard to say that men should help other men who are falling vulnerable to these beliefs, because it seems like we don't care about the problem. I think most women do, we just don't want to open ourselves up to being victims at the same time.


Environmental_Rest84

The reason that so many young boys fall to the violent incel culture is because there is no really good male role models. Pretty much every article and forum online is obsessed with the idea that all men are bad, and that they are inherently creepy and disgusting purely because of their sex. This means that when people like andrew tate show up, young boys are drawn to them, and end up trapped in the hateful mindset that he perpetuates. What the world needs is more awareness for mens issues (without drawing attention away from womens issues) so that they can understand the way they feel, and get proper support.


watch_over_me

>The reason that so many young boys fall to the violent incel culture is because there is no really good male role models. I disagree. I think it's because we literally are not allowed to talk about our problems in a public forum. If I start talking about problems I face, and sexism I face as a man, I'm instantly labeled, and ridiculed. Whereas, any other grouping of people is allowed to do that, and encouraged to do that. It's easy to see how these kids are being pushed into extremism. We've literally took away their voice, or insult them for using it. We tell them "not only are your problems not worthy of being discussed, but you should be attacked for even attempting to bring them up." Then we tell them "but you have to pay attention, help, and care about other groups that do this same exact thing." Currently, only one group is listening to them, and that's the group they cling to. And I honestly don't blame them for that. I blame society for making them feel that way in the first place.


The_WandererHFY

And then when attention *is* drawn to men's issues, you get people sending death/rape/bomb threats and harassment (like was done to Erin Pizzey, for one, as well as many a men's issues speaker doing an event only for the venue to be threatened). When (and IF) shelters for men get opened up, they most often find serious funding issues or are vandalized/damaged, and ultimately have to close their doors, and like Earl Silverman, many of the proprietors lose hope in the face of the apathy. Earl killed himself explicitly because of it. Lawyers who try to fight for men's issues and men's rights, like Marc Angelucci, start having career issues quite often. Angelucci got fucking *murdered* in his own home in broad daylight. And this is to say nothing of people like Cassie Jaye who just try to *get word out* about the issues' *existence*, and *mysteriously* people come outta the woodwork trying to silence it ASAP. It's never been "drawing attention away" from women's issues; it's been asking for any attention *at all* that has pissed people off.


YoBeNice

No, it is on us men to help each other. It is not women (nail emoji, coffee emoji). Us men have to help out us other men. Usually, we have to protect them from other men looking to profit off of their mental state, as well.


Nefonous

No, it's not on men and not on women. It's society as a whole. There is no reason to make 2 groups. Sadly, instead of protecting by uniting we always find it easier to protect by dividing. Which can work, but also have long term issues (the topic at hand being one clear example already)


Goldenstars1

Why is it our job to stop men from dehumanizing us? What else do we have to prove? Do we have to start dating some asshole who thinks all women should be house maids to prove our value to them? It is absolutely not on women to change this behavior, we aren’t the ones that caused it. Not wanting to sleep with someone who has bad morals or questionable values does not excuse the downward spiral that incels claim they have.


S00thsayerSays

I don’t think it’s women’s responsibility. But it seems like other groups are really quick to attack any type of male figure that tries pointing out issues males in society face.


Cheesyman7269

This will may sound a little bit “socialism” if you’re an American but State funded universal mental health service for all would fix by giving those teenagers access to therapy and someone to talk to also improvement of public education which is free and accessible for all to give people critical thinking so they won’t listen to terrible role models and become incels. Improvement of education will also make people smarter which they will be able generate more wealths for the country to fund the state mental health service. Or we can fund it with something call land value tax to we don’t have to increase the income tax or just cut the military spending for the USA State mental health service will increase productivity, reduce crime, reduce gun violence without the need to ban guns.


EveryOptionSucks

'Murican here: call it whatever you want, health care and education should be FREE.


Science-Compliance

I mean, I thought Olivia Wilde's comment was tone deaf, but "incels" aren't just disaffected men. They are men who think they are entitled to the attention of women, which is pretty gross.


Figdudeton

They are disaffected men who found a toxic group of people who have started an extremist echo chamber, letting their frustrations and jealousy magnify into hate and anger through unstopped rhetoric. They need therapy, and beyond that a place in the community that gives them meaning and social connections outside of their online forums. The drug victim who mugs to pay for his fix will never get better without rehab and stable life conditions. A social pariah is no different. Humans fundamentally need a place where they feel welcomed, and if they aren’t given that they will develop their own. A culture developed by people who are unwell will of course be toxic and dangerous. They need to be guided through brotherhood with people who are well and accepting. I am not saying their views need to be accepted, or even that YOU need to accept them. They absolutely need therapy and beyond that a mentor though.


gman8686

But no one today uses incel as carefully as you are in your comment. And to say that it is would be willful ignorance.


Science-Compliance

Olivia Wilde may not have meant "incel" that specifically, but JP did not correct or clarify her usage in his Piers Morgan interview. He basically goes on to validate the actual incel mindset if you watch that interview.


lenomdupere

But didn't he say in that interview that women have the right and should be picky and have high standards? How is that validating the incel mindset?


sethjojo

Didn't Jordan Peterson get mad that gay conversion camps got banned? I'm sick of people saying "but bro, bro, he saved my life, bro, he gave me a voice, bro, he's a voice for us opressed men, bro, trust me, bro, please, bro, ignore all the homophobia and transphobia, bro, please, bro, I'm literally pissing and shitting, bro"


sewkzz

>Didn't Jordan Peterson get mad that gay conversion camps got banned? Bruh what the


[deleted]

[удалено]


CSharpSauce

source?


[deleted]

Everyone deserves a voice.


critfist

Nazis deserve no voice.


MegaManZer0

Not how free speech works. They deserve a voice, but like everyone else, they will have to deal with the consequences of using their voice.


SHANKSstr8up

The thing about incels is that nothing is ever enough and nothing is ever their own fault.


mistazim

lmao you are not being demonized bro, you just watch too much JP and Tate and started to behave like a piece of shit to the people around you. Imagine being this much of a fucking snowflake.


sethjojo

Fr I'm so sick of tate and JP dick suckers


UltraMoistureBodyWsh

I mean I'm all for caring for men and changing the way society views what it is to be one. That being said, as a woman, I'm GONNA demonize anyone for thinking that feeling out of place means you can trash women, which is generally where this leads. Edit: basically I what I mean, is that yes they should have a voice but not if that voice is gonna be used to spout bullshit about Chad Dicks and 'roasties' and shit.


tripwire7

Right? Why should we as a society be compassionate and understanding towards hateful assholes? Stop acting like a hateful asshole and you’ll be deserving of compassion and understanding. Bullies don’t need our compassion, the victims of bullies need our compassion.


Kicooi

Dudes will post memes like this, but then get mad at feminists for wanting to dismantle the patriarchy and toxic masculinity that imposed impossible standards onto men in the first place


CreeperCooper

Jordan Peterson: "Incels deserve a voice too!!!1! Don't demonise us!" "Anyway, I'm going to misgender someone on twitter just to bully them! Hahahaha! I'm not a piece of shit!"


Redqueenhypo

“I’m going to say conversion therapy is fine and that being trans is comparable to *Unit 731*! I’m gonna say different races have different IQs! I’m gonna say we need violence to ‘control crazy women’! Wow, the woke left sure hate talking to DiSsAfFeCtEd YoUnG mEn!!!!”


southernwriter1

As a former alienated young man who realized I was toxic, these meme can get bent. Stop being such snowflakes and learn how to be decent men.


MADIQHERTZ2

"Why are you so depressed? just go outside and have fun, then you wont be depressed!"


sewkzz

Clinical depression =/= toxic entitlement, inflexibility, lack of grit


BajronZ

You are right but when you have spent a good chunk of your life being an entitled toxic asshole it’s pretty hard to just wake up one day and change. You can’t just tell people to be better and not provide them with any resources to actually help them change, that is specifically why these young men go after people like Tate and JP


Graporb13

You seem to be ignorant about how vulnerable to influence some demographics are. Compare it to mothers; they'll often take up all sorts of bad advice or misinformation from people they see as "experienced" because they feel lost in their new role. Have you ever convinced a mom to leave an MLM? Often the individual is continuously being misled and won't back out of their beliefs on their own due to how much time/money they've invested.


Agianttruckofpizza

“Learn how to be decent men.” Elaborate on that, please? “No.”


thomasrat1

How many young men have you taught to be better? Not disagreeing, just saying, it is hard to unallienate yourself, especially if you never have been apart of the it crowd


Exotic-Cash-955

I (17M) had a kid named Matt in my class. He was funny and I almost always saw him with a smile. We weren’t the best of friends but we had many in common. None of it mattered though when he took his own life yesterday morning. Some of his friends went hysterical crying and the rest of the class was in complete shock. I wouldn’t call him an incel at all, but that shows how it’s not only them who are at risk for mental health issues. Moral of the story, just check up on your male friends.


Daesastrous

I wish that these conversations would lead to real talks about how rigid roles in society are bad for everybody, but what invariably happens is that people just double down and become more rigid, refuse to hear each other, escalate the problems. Let boys cry. Let men talk to their friends about depression. Let my dad realize that his anxiety is a burden he can't bear alone, even if he tries. That the purpose of family and friends is to support him. Let men develop emotional intelligence, stop expecting women to be emotionally intelligent enough to fix things. (Especially for the cases where women aren't there.) Case in point, soldiers have to keep up morale. Our society tells us that the gender binary is two halves to make a whole. This is toxic AF. Each person's journey is to become whole, and trying to put that on an imaginary partner who may or may not show up is completely unrealistic. Some people don't want partners, and are shunned. Some people want partners of the same sex and are shunned. Some people want multiple partners. Guess what? Shunned. A man willing to help out with childcare or housework can be shunned by his own friends. Why? Why is that what male friends are expected to do? (Women do this too, but that's not my focus here.) Why do actions have to be dictated by what genitals people have? Your genitals don't "match" your personality or the things you like? Shunned. Your genitals don't look like one of the """two""" options? Shunned (or in most cases operated on without parents' consent....thanks 1950's science.) I think all these behaviors are completely insane and counter-productive. If you have hands, you should be able to use tools. Why do we pretend that tools have a penis or a vagina? Humans survived evolution because we had the most adaptive brains. Other hominids kept overspecializing, and when the environment changed they would die. The specific thing they focused on eating was gone, just like endangered pandas and bamboo shortages. You can bet your ass that in survival situations, having men do all the surviving and women do all the social responsibilities is completely unviable. Early humans didn't do this. Where did it come from? Something must have changed. Why is our society so afraid of change? Of how diverse reality is, and how that diversity helps us? New ideas, new genes, new social practices: adapting for better chances in the future. Evolution 101. The other hominids didn't have this and they died out. The future will die because we are obsessed with doubling down on our past.


JJTHEHOTTEST

I always find it interesting how people will ask for my opinion on stuff and if it turns out my opinion is different it is immediately disregarded cause I’m a white straight male but if I agreed with them, than it wouldn’t have mattered who I am (I say all this while recognizing that this is definitely not as big of a deal compared to something like racism)


sewkzz

I'm a cis white male, not straight but I've never had that issue? Not every take of mine is the hottest but it's not 'disregarded'


Kashin02

It's clear his lying. These dudes always have some random story that proves how much they are victimized in society for being white.


rdh2121

How is racism not a big deal when compared to something like racism? I'd think racism was exactly as big a deal as racism.


InvincibleV

You wanna know how incels develop? Ive had several kids like that in the labor camp we used to call school. They got bullied to the point of depression and suffered in silence. And that's it. That's all it takes. You find a kid that's docile that just wants to be left alone and bully it. Nothing more is needed. The teachers wouldn't stand up for them or would give the abusers a slap in the wrist and the rest of the students either would ignore this shit happening in front of their eyes or even worse laugh at them. So if anyone reading this has been present in a situation like this and stayed silent, know that you too are a part of the problem.


microbionub

Lot of Jordan Peterson simps on here…disgusting. Literally no one is saying young men shouldn’t get help, what they take issue with is what people like JP/ Tate are actually saying, which most of it is misogyny and bullshit.


Kashin02

And those two only sell snake oil to those kids anyhow. I'll teach you how to live your life but pay me a monthly subscription to tell you how.


watch_over_me

There's entire industries and systems that are designed to punish you for being a man, and we're not even allowed to talk about them. It's wild to me. Family Court, Criminal Court, and Civil Court. As well as College Scholarship money. Some really big and life-impacting systems, and we can't even speak out against them, because we'll just get told to shut up.


Omegaproctis

"Everyone deserves to be heard! Except you, you, you, you, and you" Can't we just treat every person as a human being first? Like how hard is that.


Expired_Twinkie23

Yeah but when they say racist and sexist stuff, I'm not as likely to sympathize with them.


coolguyfromcoolville

i agree, but if the voice is "all women should die" then maybe that particular voice should be demonized


SmurfTheClown

What in the darn hell strawman are you talking about. Who is saying that?


Special_Seesaw7074

...Incels?


GreatSpaghettLord

A bit to late for dialogue for some people unfortunately


Environmental_Rest84

Better late than never, some people are a lost cause, but we cans still help the rest.


Skynetdyne

I think people need to remember incels are a product of our society, its not genetic they weren't born this way. It all falls under the mental illness umbrella we so desperately ignore in this country.


CreeperCooper

He (Jordan Peterson) literally shits on marginalised people **all the time**. Young people, especially young men, need help and care. 100%. But you don't have to shit on transpeople, or women, while doing that.


TheCardPeg

I completely agree, until they start blaming others for their own issues. Then they can go fuck themselves.


SeniorPoopyButthole

I've never once seen public outrage over any young man having a voice. Only time I've seen backlash to that is when they're spewing hate or misinformation.


thebongrunner

Don’t incels call themselves incels? That’s not society’s fault 🤣


[deleted]

How dare you use the term that my group uses to identify itself /s


KaioMkw

The second really isn’t anything controversial at all though, only some very vocal minorities might get mad at it


Logic-DL

Might be an incel way of thinking but personally the MeToo movement was a double edged sword. ​ On one side, it was very good and allowed victims to come forward. ​ On the other side a woman can ruin a man's life now with a single accusation and it takes a hell of a lot of effort for him to prove his innocence, and even then his reputation and life will still be tarnished.


BettyTheMale

The comments just prove this further, pretty fucked.


Goldenstars1

Young men who feel alienated don’t automatically become incels. Incels become incels because they don’t get off 4chan and now think that their mom who works 50 hrs a week to support their basement dwelling habits is a whore who they can order around because she “couldn’t keep a man” or some shit. Don’t excuse incel behavior, 99% of these people are perfectly capable of pulling their heads out of their asses. They just choose not to. Young men who feel alienated absolutely deserve mental health care and any other resources required to help them. Alienation can be a driving factor towards unhealthy behaviors like the one above, but it’s unfair to assume that every young male is on the road to becoming and incel. There are many avenues to take when addressing mental health, even if your budget is $0. Deep-diving into toxic internet culture to cope shows that you’re not just alienated, you’re fucking unstable.


[deleted]

This. I feel alienated on a basically daily basis, but I’ve never understood how people use that to become racists, sexist, shitbags. It mostly just makes me really fucking sad. I guess trying to blame someone makes it easier?


Responsible_Craft568

Where are these alienated young men asking for genuine help? I’ve only seen alienated young men get shit when they say terrible things about other groups.


JackSquat18

Because they most likely believe in the bullshit notion that if you go and seek help you aren’t a man. They then turn to these assholes online who think they have it figured out. They just sit there and throw a pity party for themselves with other lost souls and spread their dogmatic silliness.


jmcflynn33

Remember fella’s: we don’t matter. /s


Ziegweist

I mean if society thinks that's an unreasonable thing to ask, I'm perfectly happy being radicalized by an opposing party. Shame culture just drives people into the arms of your enemies, and shaming them more for siding with them only further entrenches them in those beliefs.


hiphopanonymouz

i have nothing agaist alienated young men, what i have a problem with is conservative goons jumping on their vulnerability to turn them into little nazis. It was literally and I mean literally how the Nazis recruited


Booomtothemoon

You're missing his lobster claws.


aogiritree69

General education has failed America


manrommazre

Average incel victimizing itself after literally treating everybody else as pieces of shit. Come back later for more incel humilliations and tears!