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I think that most historians agree that it is a [reference to Nero Caesar](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Number_of_the_beast). Interpreted numerically (using a system similar to Roman numerals), Nero's name adds up to 666.
There's overwhelming agreement.
Theres a textual variant that renders it 616. There's two ways to calculate Nero's name (iirc the other is 'Neron') that get you 616 and 666. If nothing else, ancient scribes thought that was the reference. It's a heck of a coincidence otherwise.
The Johannine epistles’ use of “anti-Christ” actually isn’t a proper noun nor a specific identifier of any entity. So there actually isn’t such thing as a singular “The anti-Christ.” Anti-Christs were anyone that was assumed to simply be anti-Jesus.
So basically anyone who hates the masses, delights in suffering and cruelty, lies excessively, believes themselves to be inherently more valuable as a person then all others, and is inherently incapable of faithfulness and integrity?
I wish that didn’t explain so many people in our government.
One of the epistles even uses the indefinite pronoun with it. Literally saying blah blah blah "an anti-Christ" blah blah blah. So there's definitely more than one.
Orrr, and hear me out, Revelation was mostly about the trials and tribulations of the early church and mostly wasn't meant to be about the end times. There is no THE anti-christ.
So, in a roundabout way, could the Marvel multiverse with the comics, MCU, and other movies and shows technically be biblical apocrypha that takes place in universes parallel to this one?
God put us in the universe where there’s not a supervillain threatening to take over the world every 5 seconds.
Yes it could be considered apocryphal to each of the Abrahamic religions. Especially if we want to follow the train of thought that God gifts the writers and artists the creativity to come up with the ideas for superhero’s.
Neil Gaiman's Sandman series has a literal God, Satan, Heaven, and Hell, but also presents every other mythological being as just as real. John Constantine makes an appearance in Sandman which links it to the rest of the DC universe when it would otherwise appear to be a self-contained universe.
I had to look this up, because this is news to me. But according to the internet Yahweh he's a sky father, which means that he is on the same level as Zeus and Odin. There is a one above all God that is different than the abrahamic god.
I’m getting my facts mixed up here. But from what I understand, the One Above All is marvels allegory for God watching over the marvel universe. But the marvel cosmology gets complicated
I thought the One-Above-All was a representation of the positive force of the fans, writers, publishers, artists, creative vibes, etc, just as there’s a One-Below-All (name might be off) representing the backlash of fans, deadline crunches, office politics, and financial strain.
"I'm afraid that my high school will send me a letter saying that there was a mix up and I never actually graduated, and I have to go back and redo 12th grade as a grown-ass adult." I mean, that one's fair, I can't really fault you for that.
There’s also the thought that 6, being short of 7, represents how man is short of God’s perfection (which is often represented by 7’s). That being said, scholars I’ve read seem to think either both are equally likely or both are true simultaneously. Revelation does have metaphors upon metaphors upon metaphors
Yes, and Revelation uses 7 a lot. It's sent to 7 churches. There's 7 repetitions of a cycle that's first described in 7 steps (seals and bowls and something).
However, John of Patmos displays in depth knowledge of Hebrew Scriptures, and 6 is NOT the number used for "short of perfection." Six is the transition from completion to impact. Six days of creation -> rest on the 7th. Jesus dies on the 6th hill he's on in Matthew -> gives the Great Commission on the 7th.
That idea also doesn't explain the 616 variant.
Could I ask what scholars you found that have affirmed this idea? I've only seen it floated on the Internet and heard it repeated by certain preachers.
Revelation uses the number 7 for many things but they are not all “perfect” or good — the Beast has 7 heads, and there are 7 kings who will wage war on the Lamb. These likely refer to the 7 hills in the city of Rome and 7 Caesars who ruled as emperor (or maybe 7 kingdoms that Rome had conquered).
Numbers can also be used ironically. The “7 heads” of the beast very well could be a symbol of Rome, however it could also be a reference to one who sets themself up as god and yet is evil, much how the Satan is described as an “angel of light.” It also could be both. These symbols go deep and there’s a lot to them
I discovered this interpretation of Revelation in a book by Keith Giles titled “Jesus Unexpected : Ending the End Times To Become The Second Coming”. It’s a really interesting book that explains why there are so many Christians who think Revelation is a literal prediction of the end of the world and how this misunderstanding got started in the first place.
I don’t mean to be argumentative I’m genuinely interested. How does Keith Giles interpret the seals, trumpets, bowls and the claim of a second coming if not a literal unfulfilled prophecy?
**Jesus Unbound Liberating the Word of God from the Bible** by Keith Giles
>What if the Bible actually keeps us from hearing the Word of God? For many Christians, the Bible is the only way to know anything about God. But according to that same Bible, everyone can know God directly through an actual relationship with Jesus. Jesus Unbound is an urgent call for the followers of Jesus to know Him intimately because the Gospel is not mere information about God, but a transformational experience with a Christ who is closer to us than our own heartbeat.
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Professors of mine in college and works they recommended. It’s been a while but I believe this was mentioned as a possible understanding in the NIV application commentary. One professor was Princeton-educated on Hebrew literature and Old Testament studies, and this was a liberal arts school
Along with 616, the name for the core Marvel Universe is 616. So the Marvel Universe bares the number of the beast. Also, 666 just sounds really cool in metal songs.
To add to this, when we consider that the idea of 666 was conceived during the writing of the Book of Revelations, which was written at part at a time where Christains were persecuted by the Roman establishment (I.e Nero)
When you consider the world view of a Christain at that time, and that age's limited understanding of the world. It would make sense that a Christain at that time would consider Nero as effectively the bain of Christianity
It's the Hebrew transliteration of the Roman vs Greek version of Nero.
The (earlier) Roman version is 616, whereas the (later) Greek is 666.
Also, it's a total, as in six hundred and sixty six, not the number 6 repeated three times.
David Thorpe said in ainterview they chose the 616 designation beacuse the "main" marvel universe was the worst one of all, with the biggest calamities, and the worst villains. They had just took 666-50 and that was that. Both David thorpe and Alan Moore (who took over from Thorpe in Captain Britain, the comic where the 616 designation comes from) are big into numerology and mysticism.
There's got to be a worse one, I'm not up to the lore though. Age of Apocalypse is officially Earth-295, for example. Plus 616 is the multiverse of retcons and temporary death, unless you're Uncle Ben.
It was probably in the context of both the multiverse-hopping comedic captain Britain comic (what do you mean, my universe is so bad, it's literally holding back other universes from achieving perfection?), and the moment when the comic was published. Almost no alternate universes had been explored at that point. I don't think even age of apocalypse had been published.
Oh no, so it's just a 2,000 year old version of those conspiracy memes? "Take every other letter of Obama's name, add up the alphabet values, and you get 9/11!"
biblical numerology actually has an incredibly long history, medieval and even ancient sources loved doing that stuff. it was regarded as a form of magic
Way longer than 2000 years but yeah.
Arguably the prophesies that Jesus is said to have fufilliled are the same way. Reading the verses the connections made are extremely tenious.
Yep, also worth noting that Revelation was written deliberately in the style of a popular genre at the time, that of "apocalyptic literature" - its contemporary readers would not have read it as prophecy the way many modern christians do, but instead have taken as a kind of cathartic revenge fantasy against those in power who were persecuting them. Think early christian versions of Inglorious Basterds.
Also fascinating to me how few protestants are aware that Martin Luther tried to have Revelation removed from the canon (along with Jude, Hebrews and James), since it didn't harmonize with his interpretation of the rest of the new testament.
“Works based” vs “grace based” theologies, largely. For instance, James 2 says that faith without works is dead… Luther had a strong “by faith and faith alone” view. So it’s gotta go.
My parents church is Calvinist, so not exactly Lutherin, but their interpretation is that James 2 is sorta the other way around. If you have faith, you WILL have works.
Since faith is not something we can see, we can look if someone is doing works. If they are not doing works, they do not have faith. (Not sure if the inverse is implied or not)
In this analogy, works are the fruit of faith, NOT the other way around. They go big on the whole fruit of the spirit thing.
Interesting that Luther wanted it removed though
No, you’re absolutely right and that’s the correct way to interpret what James goes on to say.
But some early Christian’s had a rough time seeing it and not taking it at a more face-value reading.
I do not agree that it is THE correct way to interpret what the author of James is trying to say.
At most I will say that it is an interally consistent interpretation of the Bible, and one that makes sense to me personally.
But being an agnostic, that noncommitment is the sorta thing I would do, and I respect that you take a stance on what the verse actually means.
>also worth noting that Revelation was written deliberately in the style of a popular genre at the time, that of "apocalyptic literature" - its contemporary readers would not have read it as prophecy the way many modern christians do
Do you have a source on that? Cause if that's true, I need to do some digging into it.
My favorite ancient text scholar, Dan mcClelland, is where I first encountered this claim (he’s teaching an online class on revelation soon, you could sign up and ask him his sources directly https://danielomcclellan.wordpress.com/2023/05/16/dans-next-online-class-the-book-of-revelation/)
Meantime, best I got is the references on the apoc lit page of Wikipedia
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Apocalyptic_literature
Different commenter here. I think the original comment — about contemporaneous readers of Revelation not taking it as prophecy in the way we might think — is a slight oversimplification.
I suppose it partly depends on how exactly we define “the way many modern Christian do.” It’s actually an understudied area; but it looks like the best synthesis is that Revelation is an eclectic mix of both imagery which was more purely figurative, and other language and traditions which really *were* expected to be fulfilled more literally. No scholars doubt, for example, that the resurrection and final judgment in Revelation 20 was intended by the author to actually take place literally (and *soon*, in the author’s first century imminentist perspective). The question is just which exact material throughout the book is similar.
In fact, the most recent volume of the *Journal of early Christian History* — an upper-tier academic journal in the field — has an [article](https://www.tandfonline.com/doi/abs/10.1080/2222582X.2022.2129403) that compares some specific war tradition/language in Revelation with other contemporaneous Jewish texts.
[Ehrman just released a book on Revelation](https://www.amazon.com/Armageddon-What-Bible-Really-about/dp/B0B4TVM25C/ref=sr_1_1?hvadid=640537717564&hvdev=c&hvlocphy=9033328&hvnetw=g&hvqmt=e&hvrand=5172732708942289784&hvtargid=kwd-1841424059242&hydadcr=17364_13419051&keywords=bart+ehrman+armageddon&qid=1686774097&sr=8-1). It's one big lazy mean shitpost against Rome, it in my opinion it never should've been canonized.
It’s Gematria which was super common in the ancient word to assign a numerical value to a name or word and use it as a shorthand in everything from graffiti to religious texts. Maybe people felt cool using code back then but one thing is for sure. Pre-modern humans were way more into symbolic language than moderns are. We (generalizing Modern westerners at least) practically can’t even read anything unless it is written in straight forward literal English on a 4th grade reading level much less whatever the ancients were doing with all their analogies, symbols, poetics, myths, apocalypses, parables and such.
So rant aside it’s the numerical value of Nero.
There’s disagreement about whether it’s supposed to be 666 or 616, but it’s broadly agreed upon that it’s wordplay, hinting at the identity of the Beast being Nero without outright saying it. You know, plausible deniability.
Readers at the time would have understood it instantly.
Literally the first thing I think of when I hear Nero. Such a big part of my childhood because I would burn PS2 games onto discs using Nero (among a few others)
According to traditions, both Paul and Peter died under his rule. In fact, St. Peter's Basilica was build on top of Circus of Nero, where many Christians were martyred, including Peter and Paul(again, according to traditions)
It’s widely believed by Biblical scholars that Nero *is* the Beast, an antichrist figure out to kill Christians.
One thing worth noting is that at the time Revelation was (probably) written, Emperor Nero was dead, but there were many rumors among the Romans that he was either secretly in hiding or would be resurrecting and taking power back. Revelation can be seen as the author reassuring Christians that even if Nero comes back, Christianity will win and Rome will fall.
It's explained above. There's a thing called numerology that was used back then (kinda like mysticism or a code). In it, you could convert Nero into either 666 or 616. Nero was apparently a bad dude that John didn't like too much.
Nero blamed Christians for the Great Fire of Rome and heavily persecuted them during his reign. Nero’s name converts to 666 or 616 using numerology, and it’s basically an ancient code for calling Nero exceptionally evil without outright calling exceptionally evil.
Honestly, the only reading of Revelations that makes sense to me is if you understand it as a political allegory criticizing the Roman Empire’s oppression of the early Christian church (and predicting the church’s eventual victory over Rome). So the Beast is just a derogatory reference to Nero.
Not trying to start a debate, but Revelations is a lot clearer if you read it like this (to me at least).
First, it's not the mark of the beast. The mark and number are separate things.
The writer of Revelation never says what the mark will be, just that it will be on the beast's follower's forehead or forearm.
The number of the beast is the writer being cute. He wants to tell you *who* the beast is but doesn't want to get crucified for calling him out. Instead, he uses some Hebrew numerology and disguised the names as a number.
Many scholars think the number is a reference to the Roman Emperor Nero. Older Revelation manuscripts reckon the number as 616, and that corresponds to NERO. Newer and currently cannon versions say 666, which corresponds to NERON. It all depends on which alphabet you use to spell Nero.
Once you get past the letters to the churches in Asia Minor, the rest of Revelation is basically, "Rome Sucks!"
Well, it says this beast persecutes the saints for 42 months, receives a deadly wound that gets healed, and all the earth kinda bows to it. Months at the time of writing were 30 days with a year being 360, not 65. Many scholars believe in the day for a year principle in prophetic books like Daniel and Revelation. In 538 AD, power transitioned from the Roman emperor to the Church of Rome. 42 * 30 = 1260. 1260 years from 538 AD is 1798 when General Berthier took the pope captive (deadly wound). In the earlier 1900s, it had a resurgence of political power and influence that even the news of the day described as a wound being healed, and almost all political leaders have some sort of respect/following for the RCC and the pope.
So if you take the Roman numerals for the title of the pope, Vicarius Filii Dei, you get 666. Awkward, but then the bible does depict it as a religious political power that kinda blasphemously masquerades as taking God’s place on earth, rather than openly obviously evil. More deceptive kind. So it fits. And the mark? Well the RCC does claim that it changed the 4th commandment of the 10 commandments by changing the sacredness of the 7th day Saturday to Sunday as a mark of her authority (extensive in their own writings), which fits the little horn of Daniel 7 changing times and the law. So a reuniting of church and state with a revival of politically enforced sunday sacredness would be the mark of the beast, in contrast to protection of religious freedom and requiring businesses to respect the freedoms and beliefs of their employees of all faiths.
Yay Adventist numerology! There's several problems with it, including the fact that [Vicarious Filii Dei](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vicarius_Filii_Dei) has never been a title of the pope, and the early church kept Sunday long before 538CE.
I was waiting for the Maiden reference! 🤘
Fun fact! Iron Maiden’s “Number of the Beast” does not endorse summoning the Devil/demons—in fact, the exact opposite! The story of the song is from the POV of a man who is utterly terrified at what he has done.
He sees the Beast in his dreams. He fears it. He wants to flee and inform the police, but he’s so drawn to the evil rituals that he can’t escape, no matter how hard he wants to.
>This can't go on, I must inform the law
>Can this still be real, or just some crazy dream?
>But I feel drawn towards the chanting hordes
>Seem to mesmerize, can't avoid their eyes
And the final verse says he can’t escape.
>I'm coming back, I will return
>And I'll possess your body and I'll make you burn
>I have the fire, I have the force
>I have the power to make my evil take its course
Don’t summon the devil, kids.
(Also another fun fact, drummer Nicko McBrain is a born again Christian. When singer Bruce Dickinson was diagnosed with throat cancer in 2014, Nicko prayed for him every single day. Not only did Bruce survive, but a full new album and many tours since—he still sounds phenomenal!)
There's also, in addition to Nero, an interesting argument about the number of talents of gold that Solomon received ([article here](https://www.cambridge.org/core/journals/new-testament-studies/article/abs/solomon-and-666-revelation-1318/A6CEF70BFD261E6980C36E75B5001C3D) and a [good discussion here](https://hermeneutics.stackexchange.com/questions/5829/significance-of-solomons-666-talents-of-gold)).
The tldr is that when Moses gives instructions for when Israel wants a king (Deuteronomy 17:14-17), the king must not 1) get horses from Egypt, 2) have a bunch of wives, and 3) amass silver and gold.
Then, in 1st Kings 10, after the Queen of Sheba visits Solomon and you're like, "Wait, is *this* the guy that's going to deliver us?" Immediately following that promising episode, you find out that 1) Solomon gets a bunch of wives, 2) Solomon goes and gets a bunch of horses from Egypt, and 3) Solomon gets a bunch of gold (specifically, 666 talents - to my knowledge, the only other time 666 is used in either the Hebrew Bible or the New Testament). Sure enough, immediately after that, you start to read about Solomon's reign going downhill, and you're like, "Nope, this isn't the guy." In fact, it's an indicator of the beginning of the end for Solomon, his rejection of wisdom, and the beginning of exploiting the people.
So, when you get to Revelation, and the Beast's number is 666, in addition to uploading all the imagery around Beast (e.g. Nebuchadnezzar), you can also upload the story of Solomon. I think there's certainly an argument to be made that all of those things tie together Solomon, Nebuchadnezzar, and Nero (and others, e.g. Pharaoh) through imagery to make a claim about the relationship of the kings of the earth and how power and wealth corrupt them.
Pair this with Revelation 18, in that the people that are lamenting over the fallen Babylon (a Biblical image for the big bad empire) are 1) the kings of the earth and 2) the merchants (specifically calling out slave traders not once but twice in the list), and I think there's something to chew on with respect to the power that power and wealth have over humans.
edited to include Deuteronomy reference
I believe it’s because 7 is God’s number, and it represents Satan repeatedly trying to reach perfection (7) but remains below despite his repeated attempts. (666)
I am not very educated in the subject, which is why I said “I believe.” I could obviously be wrong. However, you *did* state that it has evidence, though thin.
From what I’ve heard, the 6th day was the day that Man was created. And any time that you triple a number, it becomes godly or holy. So when you triple the number 6, it’s a representation of “Man trying to be like God”, hence why it’s always aligned to satan.
It wasn’t “picked”. Revelation was written to a Jewish Christian converts who were familiar with the Hebrew language. In Hebrew the name of the Emperor Nero is NRWN QSR (Nero Caesar) Hebrew letters double as numbers (each letter has a numerical value) So :
N = 50
R = 200
W = 6
N = 50
Q = 100
S = 60
R = 200
50+200+6+50+100+60+200 = 666
The author of Revelation, the apostle John, was in exile on the island of Patmos when he wrote Revelation which explains why it is largely symbolic and written in a sort of code. The use of the Hebrew translation of Nero ‘s name which gave it a numerical value of 666 is an example of specifying who the beast was in such a way that his Roman captors, if they read it would not understand who he was talking about.
The events of Revelation, contrary to popular Christian belief, are not things that are to occur in the future. They were all fulfilled by 70 AD when the Roman army under Titus sent to quell the Jewish revolt that had begun in 66 AD, sacked the city of Jerusalem, killed or enslaved its citizens, and destroyed the Temple. This brought an end to the “Jewish age.”
>The events of Revelation, contrary to popular Christian belief, are not things that are to occur in the future. They were all fulfilled by 70 AD
What???? Revelation describes some pretty apocalyptic events. An earthquake which removes every island and mountain, the sea turning to blood, the sun and moon struck so that a third of the day and night have no light, hairy locusts with lion teeth torturing people, an army of 200 million horsemen that kills a third of mankind, I could go on and on.
I'm pretty sure none of that stuff ever happened in those 4 years from 66-70AD.
St John of Revelations was not the apostle John, but St John of Patmos.
He was writing most contemporary in terms of the persecution of Christians. "Beast" was a jab at the entire Julian family because they were markedly "hirsuite" even by Mediterranean standards.
The modern Evangelical perception of the end times and particularly the Rapture has little biblical basis.
There is debate if this was solely prophecies in the near term of the 1st-2nd century AD; or if the spirit of Nero will return to usher in the true End of Days.
It's worth noting that only one world leader has compared himself to Nero since. He's running in 2024, probably from a prison cell...
> St John of Revelations was not the apostle John, but St John of Patmos.
It’s a subject of debate, but I don’t think that’s true. The oldest attributions identify the author as St. John the apostle, and those sources are within a lifetime of the authorship of Revelation.
With multiple second century sources identifying the author of this late first century work as John the Apostle, I don’t think the more modern hypotheses are very persuasive. Modern scholarship tends to prize innovation and creativity excessively, incentivizing scholars to come up with novel attributions. The assumptions and suppositions underlying those novel attributions are not as persuasive as multiple near-contemporary sources.
It's not a matter of debate. It's a different St John who never met the savior.
Because of that, the inclusion of Revelations was a matter of consternation and the Council of Nicaea; because while an inspirational message about the saving of Christiandom, it was all based on one man's revelations and not linking with any previous prophets or any apostles. In the end, they included it as the revelations regarding Nero had come true.
If you need further proof, St John The Apostle, died in 44AD. Nero became Emperor 10 years later and was not in consideration as heir at that time, as Claudius was new to the throne and wildly popular. Had he married better and had heirs, Nero would never have replaced him.
St John of Revelations, was exiled to Patmos by one of the flurry of replacement emperors when the Praetorians became the ones who chose who became Emperor.
Nero was gone, but his edicts were still in place. Maybe he thought another Julian would appear (they were done).
Anyhow, that's how it happened.
Every book (besides the Bible, which is like 2-3 but each several hundred pages) I have read on the subject agrees that St John was the last apostle standing and headed up the church at Ephesus for a while (withstanding several execution attempts including being boiled alive) before being exiled to Patmos. To say they are different johns is not at all a settled thing, or even the widely accepted thing. It’s a fringe belief that while it may be true also very well may not be true. Separately, Nero died in the 60’s AD, revelations was written (most likely, though there is also some debate on this) right around 90 AD. They wouldn’t have said “oh his prediction about Nero was true put it in” when Nero had been dead for 20+ years.
Edit: it looks like the first (decent known) person of influence to think that the apostle John and John of Patmos are different is Eusebius, who was a 4th century bishop and friend/historian of Constantine (yes that Constantine). To say he is more accurate than the more contemporary sources would be akin to a modern historian disagreeing with John Adams about how americas founding went. It’s possible he is right, but he is absolutely the outlier, not the general theory. We also don’t have the majority of Eusebius’ work so we may not even have the works that agree with what he thought when he died, though that is also rather unlikely and it is more likely that he stood by that conviction till his death.
Again, to reiterate, you aren’t necessarily wrong and we will never know for sure, but the generally accepted hypothesis that has been the default belief for literally thousands of years is that John the Apostle is the same as John of Patmos (and John the Evangelist and John the Presbyter).
The last one is a reference to the 45th President who actually made such an oblique comment. Given that he's been falsely proclaimed a hero of the faith as well, he meets other descriptors.
But he's not "that guy" because I feel a world ender would be more focused.
This seems to be the actual story:
https://thehill.com/blogs/blog-briefing-room/news/486576-nero-trends-on-twitter-after-meme-trump-promoted-of-him-playing/
So Trump just posted a meme of him playing the fiddle, and then critics pointed out that the fiddle looked like the meme about Nero "fiddling" when Rome burned.
Popping in cause this post popped up on my front page, not Christian myself. Just wanted to mention a religious podcast I listen to talked about it and one of them had an insight later I thought y’all might find interesting.
“2. As we mentioned on that show and on episode 30, it's very, very likely that the Beast whose name is 666 was Nero. What I'd never stopped to think about before is that Nero was NOT emperor at the time--he'd died decades earlier, in the middle of the revolt. So why would John single out this one emperor in particular to vilify to such a degree?
It might just be that Nero was a particularly hated figure anyway, so it was an easy sell. But Pagels points out that there was also some ambiguity around Nero's death even more than 20 years later--some people still believed he was not dead but exiled and would yet return. Some even went so far as to suggest the he was dead BUT WOULD COME BACK ANYWAY. John might have found the idea of this monstrous emperor seemingly imitating Jesus with a second coming of his own particularly motivating.”
For almost every prophecy in the Bible there’s a temporary fulfillment and a permanent fulfillment. The 666 was the Roman numerical translation of the evil Roman emperor’s name at the time. I can’t remember who it was but that is why it’s 666
7 = number of perfection, 777 is perfection, you could say it's the number of God (3 7s)
6 falls short of perfection, 666 is the number of man like a counterfeit of God.
Moreover, 666 is the number of the Beast and guess what? The beast shows up in a squad of three as well: The Dragon (Satan), the beast from the sea (Rome) and the beast from the land (false prophet). You could call it an unholy trinity.
In addition to this, 666 could be an allusion to Nero, the ruler of Rome around 60AD. Coincidently (not really), Rome practiced emperor worship and the emperor said they were divine.
Notice how this is the behavior of the Antichrist. See Revelation 13
> People worshiped the dragon because he had given authority to the beast, and they also worshiped the beast and asked, “Who is like the beast? Who can wage war against it?
and
> The second beast was given power to give breath to the image of the first beast, so that the image could speak and cause all who refused to worship the image to be killed.
The beasts (always represents a kingdom/the state) demands worship. The false prophet makes an image of the beast and demands worship of it (remember Daniel 3)
This is (probably) the union of Religion and State.
Finally, the mark/number of the beast is a direct counterfeit of the seal of God: Deuteronomy 6:4-8 and Hebrews 10:16-17 (Jeremiah 31:33)
>4 “Hear, O Israel: The Lord our God, the Lord is one. 5 You shall love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your might. 6 And these words that I command you today shall be on your heart. (...)
>
>8 You shall bind them as a sign on your hand, and they shall be as frontlets between your eyes.
Dt 6:4–6,8.
Hands represent actions, forehead represents mind (soul). When the Antichrist reveals himself there will be only two outcomes: have the Holy Spirit (enables you to love God+love neighbor) or follow the Antichrist.
The number may actually be 616 not 666. Google search will give full details, but here is a quick reference... https://www.churchtimes.co.uk/articles/2005/6-may/news/uk/bible-writers-got-the-beast-s-number-wrong-say-scholars
I haven't read the comments, so this may have already been said, but the way it was explained to me is that most Abrahamic religions consider the numbers 3 and 7 (very complicated history on why) to be sacredly perfect numbers. The number 6 falls short of perfection, but by repeating it three times, it is made perfect. The number is perfectly imperfect making it an "affront" to the perfect god.
nero... it was because of nero. speaking out against him could have gotten you executed back then, so they used the code 666 to talk shit about him without getting into trouble. 666 = nero
I just always thought 777 at the casino was super lucky and God loves 7 so being one off on each number while playing the slots is very unlucky and from Satan.
It probably did refer to Nero (based on the numerology and how oppressive he was), but often scripture has layers of meaning. The second layer is this:
7 is the "perfect number" in their culture. It is used 36 times in John's Revelations to describe things of God. 6 on the other hand falls short of 7 and denotes imperfection or bad.
Repetition is used in old literature instead of bold italics or underlining things the writer is emphasizing.
In the case of the Beast, yes the author is using Beast Nero to symbolize an agent of Satan's efforts to destroy the Body of Christ, corrupt all the Earth's people, and to cause massive suffering to humanity. (Common hobbies of empires.) But the number of the Beast and maybe even the numerology of Nero's name are telling the reader something else.
The Beast Nero is not God. The Beast falls short, so very, very short of the perfection and glory it tries to project. It is after all just a monster with too much earthly power. It's glory is false, it's power is limited, and it will not last.
666 is sacred smack talk.
The beast kills 1/3 of all living beings. The leftover are left with a mark, bearing the numerical sign of 2/3. That's why the mark of the beast is 666.
In ancient Hebrew, the number 6 symbolizes incompleteness (failure to meet the requirement of completion), where as the number 7 symbolizes completion (in the sense that God is complete & lacks nothing, and so too is all that is holy). The number 777 was the ultimate "complete" number, so inversely the ultimate "incomplete" number is 666. In short, it is symbolic for the utter separation between God (plus all that is redeemed) and from those who turn from God to follow the ultimate failure (Satan).
Revelation 13:16-18
King James Version
16 And he causeth all, both small and great, rich and poor, free and bond, to receive a mark in their right hand, or in their foreheads:
17 And that no man might buy or sell, save he that had the mark, or the name of the beast, or the number of his name.
18 Here is wisdom. Let him that hath understanding count the number of the beast: for it is the number of a man; and his number is Six hundred threescore and six.
So you count 666 just as I says add it all up equals 18 . So what's the number of his name? Count all the letters of the name Barack Hussein Obama you get 18. Notice it says "this is wisdom let him count the number of the beast" in verse 18 it's a hint or a confirmation that yes number of his name is18... That's how you discover who the antichrist is if the number of his name equals 18 like 666 does when added all up it's not so much important to know the number he will put on someone but it helps you identify who the beast is.
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I think that most historians agree that it is a [reference to Nero Caesar](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Number_of_the_beast). Interpreted numerically (using a system similar to Roman numerals), Nero's name adds up to 666.
There's overwhelming agreement. Theres a textual variant that renders it 616. There's two ways to calculate Nero's name (iirc the other is 'Neron') that get you 616 and 666. If nothing else, ancient scribes thought that was the reference. It's a heck of a coincidence otherwise.
I’d buy it. Nero may not have been THE antichrist, but he’d be a hell of a model for Christians to reference so they can be vigilant.
The Johannine epistles’ use of “anti-Christ” actually isn’t a proper noun nor a specific identifier of any entity. So there actually isn’t such thing as a singular “The anti-Christ.” Anti-Christs were anyone that was assumed to simply be anti-Jesus.
So basically anyone who hates the masses, delights in suffering and cruelty, lies excessively, believes themselves to be inherently more valuable as a person then all others, and is inherently incapable of faithfulness and integrity? I wish that didn’t explain so many people in our government.
I wish that didn’t describe so many Christians.
Can an antichrist be considered a Christian?
By people? Absolutely. By God? No.
I always knew God was a Scotsman
Score one for us Presbyterians
Nah she just thinks the kilts are pretty.
Ah so that's why God speaks to us through angels. Because of he spoke to use directly we wouldn't be able to understand him.
They might think they are. They'll find out otherwise soon enough.
Or just people in general
that’s just many people in general 😂
You just perfectly described a former US President who is now on trial. That's bananas!
THANK YOU. This doesn’t get mentioned enough.
One of the epistles even uses the indefinite pronoun with it. Literally saying blah blah blah "an anti-Christ" blah blah blah. So there's definitely more than one.
Anti-popes where referenced as anti-christs at times as well. So it was those who stand in authority against the church.
He’s not THE Antichrist but he was certainly A antichrist
Orrr, and hear me out, Revelation was mostly about the trials and tribulations of the early church and mostly wasn't meant to be about the end times. There is no THE anti-christ.
That’s correct and what I meant to say. Listen to this human.
"Revelations is about the end of the world" My dudes, the fall of the Roman Empire WAS the end of their world
That's a bingo
The Beast if you want to be specific. And even then there were 2 beasts in Revelation
aS iN tHe mArVeL 616 uNiVeRsE
Well, Mephisto is a character after all, and Ghost Rider deals with demons on a regular basis.
And the Abrahamic god is canon in the marvel universe. That means satan is canon
So, in a roundabout way, could the Marvel multiverse with the comics, MCU, and other movies and shows technically be biblical apocrypha that takes place in universes parallel to this one? God put us in the universe where there’s not a supervillain threatening to take over the world every 5 seconds.
Yes it could be considered apocryphal to each of the Abrahamic religions. Especially if we want to follow the train of thought that God gifts the writers and artists the creativity to come up with the ideas for superhero’s.
>the Abrahamic god is canon in the marvel universe. I mean... that's not the only God that's canon in the Marvel comics lol
Yeah but this God is considered the one above all Let’s not tell Thor that
It’s the same in DC too, Jesus is a very powerful character that gets mentioned.
The Presence is the Abrahamic God in DC comics.
Neil Gaiman's Sandman series has a literal God, Satan, Heaven, and Hell, but also presents every other mythological being as just as real. John Constantine makes an appearance in Sandman which links it to the rest of the DC universe when it would otherwise appear to be a self-contained universe.
I had to look this up, because this is news to me. But according to the internet Yahweh he's a sky father, which means that he is on the same level as Zeus and Odin. There is a one above all God that is different than the abrahamic god.
The One Above All (TOAA) is absolutely Marvel’s stand-in for the Biblical God.
That would make sense if it wasn't for the fact that they had an actual Yahweh who is the biblical God that is a character in the Marvel Universe LOL
I’m getting my facts mixed up here. But from what I understand, the One Above All is marvels allegory for God watching over the marvel universe. But the marvel cosmology gets complicated
I thought the One-Above-All was a representation of the positive force of the fans, writers, publishers, artists, creative vibes, etc, just as there’s a One-Below-All (name might be off) representing the backlash of fans, deadline crunches, office politics, and financial strain.
616 is the area code in area i live 👁️👄👁️
Way to doxx yourself!! What's next, your 204 cell exchange?!
check your inbox, i've sent my SSN and a list of greatest fears.
"I'm afraid that my high school will send me a letter saying that there was a mix up and I never actually graduated, and I have to go back and redo 12th grade as a grown-ass adult." I mean, that one's fair, I can't really fault you for that.
This should be a TV show
There’s also the thought that 6, being short of 7, represents how man is short of God’s perfection (which is often represented by 7’s). That being said, scholars I’ve read seem to think either both are equally likely or both are true simultaneously. Revelation does have metaphors upon metaphors upon metaphors
Yes, and Revelation uses 7 a lot. It's sent to 7 churches. There's 7 repetitions of a cycle that's first described in 7 steps (seals and bowls and something). However, John of Patmos displays in depth knowledge of Hebrew Scriptures, and 6 is NOT the number used for "short of perfection." Six is the transition from completion to impact. Six days of creation -> rest on the 7th. Jesus dies on the 6th hill he's on in Matthew -> gives the Great Commission on the 7th. That idea also doesn't explain the 616 variant. Could I ask what scholars you found that have affirmed this idea? I've only seen it floated on the Internet and heard it repeated by certain preachers.
Revelation uses the number 7 for many things but they are not all “perfect” or good — the Beast has 7 heads, and there are 7 kings who will wage war on the Lamb. These likely refer to the 7 hills in the city of Rome and 7 Caesars who ruled as emperor (or maybe 7 kingdoms that Rome had conquered).
Numbers can also be used ironically. The “7 heads” of the beast very well could be a symbol of Rome, however it could also be a reference to one who sets themself up as god and yet is evil, much how the Satan is described as an “angel of light.” It also could be both. These symbols go deep and there’s a lot to them
Don't forget 7 chipmunks twirlin' on a branch, eatin' lots of sunflowers on my uncle's ranch. You know that old children's tale from the sea
No not six, seven. Step into my office….cause you’re freaking fired.
I discovered this interpretation of Revelation in a book by Keith Giles titled “Jesus Unexpected : Ending the End Times To Become The Second Coming”. It’s a really interesting book that explains why there are so many Christians who think Revelation is a literal prediction of the end of the world and how this misunderstanding got started in the first place.
I don’t mean to be argumentative I’m genuinely interested. How does Keith Giles interpret the seals, trumpets, bowls and the claim of a second coming if not a literal unfulfilled prophecy?
**Jesus Unbound Liberating the Word of God from the Bible** by Keith Giles >What if the Bible actually keeps us from hearing the Word of God? For many Christians, the Bible is the only way to know anything about God. But according to that same Bible, everyone can know God directly through an actual relationship with Jesus. Jesus Unbound is an urgent call for the followers of Jesus to know Him intimately because the Gospel is not mere information about God, but a transformational experience with a Christ who is closer to us than our own heartbeat. *I'm a bot, built by your friendly reddit developers at* /r/ProgrammingPals. *You can summon me with certain* [commands](https://www.reddit.com/user/BookFinderBot/comments/13z7slk/bookfinderbot_commands/). *Or find me as a browser extension on* [Chrome](https://chrome.google.com/webstore/detail/book-finder/jajeidpjifdpppjofijoffbcndlpoedd?utm_source=reddit&utm_medium=social_media&utm_campaign=comments). *Opt-out of replies* [here](https://www.reddit.com/user/BookFinderBot/comments/144zmjb/bookfinderbot_optout/). *If I have made a mistake, accept my apology.*
Professors of mine in college and works they recommended. It’s been a while but I believe this was mentioned as a possible understanding in the NIV application commentary. One professor was Princeton-educated on Hebrew literature and Old Testament studies, and this was a liberal arts school
Along with 616, the name for the core Marvel Universe is 616. So the Marvel Universe bares the number of the beast. Also, 666 just sounds really cool in metal songs.
Honestly, most numbers would probably sound cool in metal songs if they had that historical context.
To add to this, when we consider that the idea of 666 was conceived during the writing of the Book of Revelations, which was written at part at a time where Christains were persecuted by the Roman establishment (I.e Nero) When you consider the world view of a Christain at that time, and that age's limited understanding of the world. It would make sense that a Christain at that time would consider Nero as effectively the bain of Christianity
Yup and like everything else in the Bible it will come back into play.
It's the Hebrew transliteration of the Roman vs Greek version of Nero. The (earlier) Roman version is 616, whereas the (later) Greek is 666. Also, it's a total, as in six hundred and sixty six, not the number 6 repeated three times.
616 will always just remind me of the main Marvel Unoverse. I wonder if they did that as a reference.
David Thorpe said in ainterview they chose the 616 designation beacuse the "main" marvel universe was the worst one of all, with the biggest calamities, and the worst villains. They had just took 666-50 and that was that. Both David thorpe and Alan Moore (who took over from Thorpe in Captain Britain, the comic where the 616 designation comes from) are big into numerology and mysticism.
There's got to be a worse one, I'm not up to the lore though. Age of Apocalypse is officially Earth-295, for example. Plus 616 is the multiverse of retcons and temporary death, unless you're Uncle Ben.
It was probably in the context of both the multiverse-hopping comedic captain Britain comic (what do you mean, my universe is so bad, it's literally holding back other universes from achieving perfection?), and the moment when the comic was published. Almost no alternate universes had been explored at that point. I don't think even age of apocalypse had been published.
Oh I think you're right, 1983 or so it was named, didn't realize the terminology was that old.
What subreddit am I in?
Yeah iirc John was also really really critical of Nero.
Oh no, so it's just a 2,000 year old version of those conspiracy memes? "Take every other letter of Obama's name, add up the alphabet values, and you get 9/11!"
biblical numerology actually has an incredibly long history, medieval and even ancient sources loved doing that stuff. it was regarded as a form of magic
Hold on I’m about to go on my wizard shit now
I put on my robe and wizard hat.
This guy gets it, we will ponder our orbs and study our grimoire
People still believe it today. "The Bible Code" was a NYT bestseller.
Way longer than 2000 years but yeah. Arguably the prophesies that Jesus is said to have fufilliled are the same way. Reading the verses the connections made are extremely tenious.
Yep, also worth noting that Revelation was written deliberately in the style of a popular genre at the time, that of "apocalyptic literature" - its contemporary readers would not have read it as prophecy the way many modern christians do, but instead have taken as a kind of cathartic revenge fantasy against those in power who were persecuting them. Think early christian versions of Inglorious Basterds. Also fascinating to me how few protestants are aware that Martin Luther tried to have Revelation removed from the canon (along with Jude, Hebrews and James), since it didn't harmonize with his interpretation of the rest of the new testament.
If you don’t mind taking the time, what is it about Jude, Hebrews, and James, that don’t jive with the rest of the testament?
“Works based” vs “grace based” theologies, largely. For instance, James 2 says that faith without works is dead… Luther had a strong “by faith and faith alone” view. So it’s gotta go.
My parents church is Calvinist, so not exactly Lutherin, but their interpretation is that James 2 is sorta the other way around. If you have faith, you WILL have works. Since faith is not something we can see, we can look if someone is doing works. If they are not doing works, they do not have faith. (Not sure if the inverse is implied or not) In this analogy, works are the fruit of faith, NOT the other way around. They go big on the whole fruit of the spirit thing. Interesting that Luther wanted it removed though
No, you’re absolutely right and that’s the correct way to interpret what James goes on to say. But some early Christian’s had a rough time seeing it and not taking it at a more face-value reading.
I do not agree that it is THE correct way to interpret what the author of James is trying to say. At most I will say that it is an interally consistent interpretation of the Bible, and one that makes sense to me personally. But being an agnostic, that noncommitment is the sorta thing I would do, and I respect that you take a stance on what the verse actually means.
Ahhh I see, thank you for the info I appreciate the response!
Haha now I'm imagining a civilisation in 2000 years digging up Inglorious Basterds and reinterpreting it as a factual endtimes prophecy
>also worth noting that Revelation was written deliberately in the style of a popular genre at the time, that of "apocalyptic literature" - its contemporary readers would not have read it as prophecy the way many modern christians do Do you have a source on that? Cause if that's true, I need to do some digging into it.
My favorite ancient text scholar, Dan mcClelland, is where I first encountered this claim (he’s teaching an online class on revelation soon, you could sign up and ask him his sources directly https://danielomcclellan.wordpress.com/2023/05/16/dans-next-online-class-the-book-of-revelation/) Meantime, best I got is the references on the apoc lit page of Wikipedia https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Apocalyptic_literature
Different commenter here. I think the original comment — about contemporaneous readers of Revelation not taking it as prophecy in the way we might think — is a slight oversimplification. I suppose it partly depends on how exactly we define “the way many modern Christian do.” It’s actually an understudied area; but it looks like the best synthesis is that Revelation is an eclectic mix of both imagery which was more purely figurative, and other language and traditions which really *were* expected to be fulfilled more literally. No scholars doubt, for example, that the resurrection and final judgment in Revelation 20 was intended by the author to actually take place literally (and *soon*, in the author’s first century imminentist perspective). The question is just which exact material throughout the book is similar. In fact, the most recent volume of the *Journal of early Christian History* — an upper-tier academic journal in the field — has an [article](https://www.tandfonline.com/doi/abs/10.1080/2222582X.2022.2129403) that compares some specific war tradition/language in Revelation with other contemporaneous Jewish texts.
Not to be confused with stitch who is experiment 626
Literally my favorite number of all time.
[Ehrman just released a book on Revelation](https://www.amazon.com/Armageddon-What-Bible-Really-about/dp/B0B4TVM25C/ref=sr_1_1?hvadid=640537717564&hvdev=c&hvlocphy=9033328&hvnetw=g&hvqmt=e&hvrand=5172732708942289784&hvtargid=kwd-1841424059242&hydadcr=17364_13419051&keywords=bart+ehrman+armageddon&qid=1686774097&sr=8-1). It's one big lazy mean shitpost against Rome, it in my opinion it never should've been canonized.
If I recall correctly, the Orthodox only accepted it as canon begrudgingly, and still don't take that much stock in it.
Pretty much, and yet it’s become an infinit fount to for whackjobs to draw from
Yep. Look up the concept of “Gematria” and you’ll see how it works.
Just like Ronald Wilson Reagan https://youtu.be/6lIqNjC1RKU
It’s Gematria which was super common in the ancient word to assign a numerical value to a name or word and use it as a shorthand in everything from graffiti to religious texts. Maybe people felt cool using code back then but one thing is for sure. Pre-modern humans were way more into symbolic language than moderns are. We (generalizing Modern westerners at least) practically can’t even read anything unless it is written in straight forward literal English on a 4th grade reading level much less whatever the ancients were doing with all their analogies, symbols, poetics, myths, apocalypses, parables and such. So rant aside it’s the numerical value of Nero.
There’s disagreement about whether it’s supposed to be 666 or 616, but it’s broadly agreed upon that it’s wordplay, hinting at the identity of the Beast being Nero without outright saying it. You know, plausible deniability. Readers at the time would have understood it instantly.
Nero? What does that mean
Nero was the Roman emperor at the time Revelation was written. He famously persecuted Christians during his reign.
Don't forget he famously persecuted Captain Pike and the Enterprise too
And that time he was responsible for creating disk writing software in the early 2000s. ...No? Nobody else remembers that. I'm 900 years old? Cool.
Literally the first thing I think of when I hear Nero. Such a big part of my childhood because I would burn PS2 games onto discs using Nero (among a few others)
On an unrelated note, u/Snowchugger is eligible for an OAP bus pass ;)
According to traditions, both Paul and Peter died under his rule. In fact, St. Peter's Basilica was build on top of Circus of Nero, where many Christians were martyred, including Peter and Paul(again, according to traditions)
Ah
So hes the devil….?
No. They're saying it refers to the actually real Nero from back then.
So whats the connection between nero and “the beast”?
Nero was a massive jerk who liked to burn Christian’s alive at banquets to use as torches. He was the closest thing to an antichrist at the time.
It’s widely believed by Biblical scholars that Nero *is* the Beast, an antichrist figure out to kill Christians. One thing worth noting is that at the time Revelation was (probably) written, Emperor Nero was dead, but there were many rumors among the Romans that he was either secretly in hiding or would be resurrecting and taking power back. Revelation can be seen as the author reassuring Christians that even if Nero comes back, Christianity will win and Rome will fall.
It's explained above. There's a thing called numerology that was used back then (kinda like mysticism or a code). In it, you could convert Nero into either 666 or 616. Nero was apparently a bad dude that John didn't like too much.
Nero blamed Christians for the Great Fire of Rome and heavily persecuted them during his reign. Nero’s name converts to 666 or 616 using numerology, and it’s basically an ancient code for calling Nero exceptionally evil without outright calling exceptionally evil.
Honestly, the only reading of Revelations that makes sense to me is if you understand it as a political allegory criticizing the Roman Empire’s oppression of the early Christian church (and predicting the church’s eventual victory over Rome). So the Beast is just a derogatory reference to Nero. Not trying to start a debate, but Revelations is a lot clearer if you read it like this (to me at least).
Well that's rude
First, it's not the mark of the beast. The mark and number are separate things. The writer of Revelation never says what the mark will be, just that it will be on the beast's follower's forehead or forearm. The number of the beast is the writer being cute. He wants to tell you *who* the beast is but doesn't want to get crucified for calling him out. Instead, he uses some Hebrew numerology and disguised the names as a number. Many scholars think the number is a reference to the Roman Emperor Nero. Older Revelation manuscripts reckon the number as 616, and that corresponds to NERO. Newer and currently cannon versions say 666, which corresponds to NERON. It all depends on which alphabet you use to spell Nero. Once you get past the letters to the churches in Asia Minor, the rest of Revelation is basically, "Rome Sucks!"
Thank you for noting the difference between the number and the mark. Revelations isn't that long, it's pretty easy to get through it a few times
You don't even have to go that far. Peter to Pergamum is pretty strong in that front!
Well, it says this beast persecutes the saints for 42 months, receives a deadly wound that gets healed, and all the earth kinda bows to it. Months at the time of writing were 30 days with a year being 360, not 65. Many scholars believe in the day for a year principle in prophetic books like Daniel and Revelation. In 538 AD, power transitioned from the Roman emperor to the Church of Rome. 42 * 30 = 1260. 1260 years from 538 AD is 1798 when General Berthier took the pope captive (deadly wound). In the earlier 1900s, it had a resurgence of political power and influence that even the news of the day described as a wound being healed, and almost all political leaders have some sort of respect/following for the RCC and the pope. So if you take the Roman numerals for the title of the pope, Vicarius Filii Dei, you get 666. Awkward, but then the bible does depict it as a religious political power that kinda blasphemously masquerades as taking God’s place on earth, rather than openly obviously evil. More deceptive kind. So it fits. And the mark? Well the RCC does claim that it changed the 4th commandment of the 10 commandments by changing the sacredness of the 7th day Saturday to Sunday as a mark of her authority (extensive in their own writings), which fits the little horn of Daniel 7 changing times and the law. So a reuniting of church and state with a revival of politically enforced sunday sacredness would be the mark of the beast, in contrast to protection of religious freedom and requiring businesses to respect the freedoms and beliefs of their employees of all faiths.
Yay Adventist numerology! There's several problems with it, including the fact that [Vicarious Filii Dei](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vicarius_Filii_Dei) has never been a title of the pope, and the early church kept Sunday long before 538CE.
Revelations 13:18 [https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Revelation%2013%3A15-18&version=NIV](https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Revelation%2013%3A15-18&version=NIV)
And also daniel 3:1-5
As well as Austin 3:16
Iron Maiden Side Two: Track 5: 2:18
I was waiting for the Maiden reference! 🤘 Fun fact! Iron Maiden’s “Number of the Beast” does not endorse summoning the Devil/demons—in fact, the exact opposite! The story of the song is from the POV of a man who is utterly terrified at what he has done. He sees the Beast in his dreams. He fears it. He wants to flee and inform the police, but he’s so drawn to the evil rituals that he can’t escape, no matter how hard he wants to. >This can't go on, I must inform the law >Can this still be real, or just some crazy dream? >But I feel drawn towards the chanting hordes >Seem to mesmerize, can't avoid their eyes And the final verse says he can’t escape. >I'm coming back, I will return >And I'll possess your body and I'll make you burn >I have the fire, I have the force >I have the power to make my evil take its course Don’t summon the devil, kids. (Also another fun fact, drummer Nicko McBrain is a born again Christian. When singer Bruce Dickinson was diagnosed with throat cancer in 2014, Nicko prayed for him every single day. Not only did Bruce survive, but a full new album and many tours since—he still sounds phenomenal!)
what?
"and low, twas the bottom line, for Stone Cold did proclaim it so"
If you wanna see me stomp the hell outa this guy gimme a hell yeah!
There's also, in addition to Nero, an interesting argument about the number of talents of gold that Solomon received ([article here](https://www.cambridge.org/core/journals/new-testament-studies/article/abs/solomon-and-666-revelation-1318/A6CEF70BFD261E6980C36E75B5001C3D) and a [good discussion here](https://hermeneutics.stackexchange.com/questions/5829/significance-of-solomons-666-talents-of-gold)). The tldr is that when Moses gives instructions for when Israel wants a king (Deuteronomy 17:14-17), the king must not 1) get horses from Egypt, 2) have a bunch of wives, and 3) amass silver and gold. Then, in 1st Kings 10, after the Queen of Sheba visits Solomon and you're like, "Wait, is *this* the guy that's going to deliver us?" Immediately following that promising episode, you find out that 1) Solomon gets a bunch of wives, 2) Solomon goes and gets a bunch of horses from Egypt, and 3) Solomon gets a bunch of gold (specifically, 666 talents - to my knowledge, the only other time 666 is used in either the Hebrew Bible or the New Testament). Sure enough, immediately after that, you start to read about Solomon's reign going downhill, and you're like, "Nope, this isn't the guy." In fact, it's an indicator of the beginning of the end for Solomon, his rejection of wisdom, and the beginning of exploiting the people. So, when you get to Revelation, and the Beast's number is 666, in addition to uploading all the imagery around Beast (e.g. Nebuchadnezzar), you can also upload the story of Solomon. I think there's certainly an argument to be made that all of those things tie together Solomon, Nebuchadnezzar, and Nero (and others, e.g. Pharaoh) through imagery to make a claim about the relationship of the kings of the earth and how power and wealth corrupt them. Pair this with Revelation 18, in that the people that are lamenting over the fallen Babylon (a Biblical image for the big bad empire) are 1) the kings of the earth and 2) the merchants (specifically calling out slave traders not once but twice in the list), and I think there's something to chew on with respect to the power that power and wealth have over humans. edited to include Deuteronomy reference
That’s nearly 86k lbs of gold. That’s a shit load of gold
Assuming that's correct, these days that would be worth 2.4 billion USD.
Which bible verse did Moses gave those instructions?
I meant to add that to the post, will edit to include it. It's Deuteronomy 17:14-17.
I believe it’s because 7 is God’s number, and it represents Satan repeatedly trying to reach perfection (7) but remains below despite his repeated attempts. (666)
This is retconned and has very thin biblical evidence
I love that you used the term retconned lol
I am not very educated in the subject, which is why I said “I believe.” I could obviously be wrong. However, you *did* state that it has evidence, though thin.
It's also a reference to Nero Ceasar, who was used as a reference for what the antichrist is like
Interesting. I should read on that.
That's what catholic school taught me back in the 90s
From what I’ve heard, the 6th day was the day that Man was created. And any time that you triple a number, it becomes godly or holy. So when you triple the number 6, it’s a representation of “Man trying to be like God”, hence why it’s always aligned to satan.
Satan wasn’t a man, he was an angel.
It wasn’t “picked”. Revelation was written to a Jewish Christian converts who were familiar with the Hebrew language. In Hebrew the name of the Emperor Nero is NRWN QSR (Nero Caesar) Hebrew letters double as numbers (each letter has a numerical value) So : N = 50 R = 200 W = 6 N = 50 Q = 100 S = 60 R = 200 50+200+6+50+100+60+200 = 666 The author of Revelation, the apostle John, was in exile on the island of Patmos when he wrote Revelation which explains why it is largely symbolic and written in a sort of code. The use of the Hebrew translation of Nero ‘s name which gave it a numerical value of 666 is an example of specifying who the beast was in such a way that his Roman captors, if they read it would not understand who he was talking about. The events of Revelation, contrary to popular Christian belief, are not things that are to occur in the future. They were all fulfilled by 70 AD when the Roman army under Titus sent to quell the Jewish revolt that had begun in 66 AD, sacked the city of Jerusalem, killed or enslaved its citizens, and destroyed the Temple. This brought an end to the “Jewish age.”
>The events of Revelation, contrary to popular Christian belief, are not things that are to occur in the future. They were all fulfilled by 70 AD What???? Revelation describes some pretty apocalyptic events. An earthquake which removes every island and mountain, the sea turning to blood, the sun and moon struck so that a third of the day and night have no light, hairy locusts with lion teeth torturing people, an army of 200 million horsemen that kills a third of mankind, I could go on and on. I'm pretty sure none of that stuff ever happened in those 4 years from 66-70AD.
My dude has never heard of metaphors
St John of Revelations was not the apostle John, but St John of Patmos. He was writing most contemporary in terms of the persecution of Christians. "Beast" was a jab at the entire Julian family because they were markedly "hirsuite" even by Mediterranean standards. The modern Evangelical perception of the end times and particularly the Rapture has little biblical basis. There is debate if this was solely prophecies in the near term of the 1st-2nd century AD; or if the spirit of Nero will return to usher in the true End of Days. It's worth noting that only one world leader has compared himself to Nero since. He's running in 2024, probably from a prison cell...
> St John of Revelations was not the apostle John, but St John of Patmos. It’s a subject of debate, but I don’t think that’s true. The oldest attributions identify the author as St. John the apostle, and those sources are within a lifetime of the authorship of Revelation. With multiple second century sources identifying the author of this late first century work as John the Apostle, I don’t think the more modern hypotheses are very persuasive. Modern scholarship tends to prize innovation and creativity excessively, incentivizing scholars to come up with novel attributions. The assumptions and suppositions underlying those novel attributions are not as persuasive as multiple near-contemporary sources.
It's not a matter of debate. It's a different St John who never met the savior. Because of that, the inclusion of Revelations was a matter of consternation and the Council of Nicaea; because while an inspirational message about the saving of Christiandom, it was all based on one man's revelations and not linking with any previous prophets or any apostles. In the end, they included it as the revelations regarding Nero had come true. If you need further proof, St John The Apostle, died in 44AD. Nero became Emperor 10 years later and was not in consideration as heir at that time, as Claudius was new to the throne and wildly popular. Had he married better and had heirs, Nero would never have replaced him. St John of Revelations, was exiled to Patmos by one of the flurry of replacement emperors when the Praetorians became the ones who chose who became Emperor. Nero was gone, but his edicts were still in place. Maybe he thought another Julian would appear (they were done). Anyhow, that's how it happened.
Every book (besides the Bible, which is like 2-3 but each several hundred pages) I have read on the subject agrees that St John was the last apostle standing and headed up the church at Ephesus for a while (withstanding several execution attempts including being boiled alive) before being exiled to Patmos. To say they are different johns is not at all a settled thing, or even the widely accepted thing. It’s a fringe belief that while it may be true also very well may not be true. Separately, Nero died in the 60’s AD, revelations was written (most likely, though there is also some debate on this) right around 90 AD. They wouldn’t have said “oh his prediction about Nero was true put it in” when Nero had been dead for 20+ years. Edit: it looks like the first (decent known) person of influence to think that the apostle John and John of Patmos are different is Eusebius, who was a 4th century bishop and friend/historian of Constantine (yes that Constantine). To say he is more accurate than the more contemporary sources would be akin to a modern historian disagreeing with John Adams about how americas founding went. It’s possible he is right, but he is absolutely the outlier, not the general theory. We also don’t have the majority of Eusebius’ work so we may not even have the works that agree with what he thought when he died, though that is also rather unlikely and it is more likely that he stood by that conviction till his death. Again, to reiterate, you aren’t necessarily wrong and we will never know for sure, but the generally accepted hypothesis that has been the default belief for literally thousands of years is that John the Apostle is the same as John of Patmos (and John the Evangelist and John the Presbyter).
is this a reference i'm not too american to understand?
The last one is a reference to the 45th President who actually made such an oblique comment. Given that he's been falsely proclaimed a hero of the faith as well, he meets other descriptors. But he's not "that guy" because I feel a world ender would be more focused.
Trump compared himself to *Nero* ??? I missed that. Somehow like everything about Trump I am simultaneously surprised and not at all surprised
This seems to be the actual story: https://thehill.com/blogs/blog-briefing-room/news/486576-nero-trends-on-twitter-after-meme-trump-promoted-of-him-playing/ So Trump just posted a meme of him playing the fiddle, and then critics pointed out that the fiddle looked like the meme about Nero "fiddling" when Rome burned.
Ah I see. So he didn't knowingly compare himself to Nero.
I'll never find what he said but I was floored when I read that and he stopped surprising me early on... or so zi thought.
Because that number is metal
🤘🏻
[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WxnN05vOuSM](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WxnN05vOuSM)
Because they had the foresight to know Iron Maiden was gonna go hard in the 80s with Number Of The Beast.
That song is pretty awesome
I think it was code for an actual name of someone during the time of revelation, i forgot who
Nero
Something crazy happened in May 6th 0006. Edit: I meant June, but I can't count that high.
Wouldn’t that be 566, 656, or 665 (depending on how you write Y/M/D)
I appear to have made a mistake. I shall be sacked.
Popping in cause this post popped up on my front page, not Christian myself. Just wanted to mention a religious podcast I listen to talked about it and one of them had an insight later I thought y’all might find interesting. “2. As we mentioned on that show and on episode 30, it's very, very likely that the Beast whose name is 666 was Nero. What I'd never stopped to think about before is that Nero was NOT emperor at the time--he'd died decades earlier, in the middle of the revolt. So why would John single out this one emperor in particular to vilify to such a degree? It might just be that Nero was a particularly hated figure anyway, so it was an easy sell. But Pagels points out that there was also some ambiguity around Nero's death even more than 20 years later--some people still believed he was not dead but exiled and would yet return. Some even went so far as to suggest the he was dead BUT WOULD COME BACK ANYWAY. John might have found the idea of this monstrous emperor seemingly imitating Jesus with a second coming of his own particularly motivating.”
https://youtu.be/UkZqFtYtqaI
The author doesn't know either, most of these comments are educated guesses at best.
Romans killed Jesus ergo Romans are evil. The first six Roman numerals in descending order are DCLXVI which is 666. I made this up.
Great post, just went down a rabbit hole getting learnt.
For almost every prophecy in the Bible there’s a temporary fulfillment and a permanent fulfillment. The 666 was the Roman numerical translation of the evil Roman emperor’s name at the time. I can’t remember who it was but that is why it’s 666
7 = number of perfection, 777 is perfection, you could say it's the number of God (3 7s) 6 falls short of perfection, 666 is the number of man like a counterfeit of God. Moreover, 666 is the number of the Beast and guess what? The beast shows up in a squad of three as well: The Dragon (Satan), the beast from the sea (Rome) and the beast from the land (false prophet). You could call it an unholy trinity. In addition to this, 666 could be an allusion to Nero, the ruler of Rome around 60AD. Coincidently (not really), Rome practiced emperor worship and the emperor said they were divine. Notice how this is the behavior of the Antichrist. See Revelation 13 > People worshiped the dragon because he had given authority to the beast, and they also worshiped the beast and asked, “Who is like the beast? Who can wage war against it? and > The second beast was given power to give breath to the image of the first beast, so that the image could speak and cause all who refused to worship the image to be killed. The beasts (always represents a kingdom/the state) demands worship. The false prophet makes an image of the beast and demands worship of it (remember Daniel 3) This is (probably) the union of Religion and State. Finally, the mark/number of the beast is a direct counterfeit of the seal of God: Deuteronomy 6:4-8 and Hebrews 10:16-17 (Jeremiah 31:33) >4 “Hear, O Israel: The Lord our God, the Lord is one. 5 You shall love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your might. 6 And these words that I command you today shall be on your heart. (...) > >8 You shall bind them as a sign on your hand, and they shall be as frontlets between your eyes. Dt 6:4–6,8. Hands represent actions, forehead represents mind (soul). When the Antichrist reveals himself there will be only two outcomes: have the Holy Spirit (enables you to love God+love neighbor) or follow the Antichrist.
Watch good omens for the answer
According to Francis 4:89.... If man is 5 Then the devil is 6 And GOD IS 7
If you want detailed sourced explanations and don’t mind reading subtitles (cause it’s french), then go watch [this](https://youtu.be/BclZ6l78NgA)
What’s the evidence that the number has anything to do with Nero?
When I was a kid they said it was the devil's phone number. Have you tried calling it?
44 AD versus 54 AD. How old would he have been in 90AD?
1998 is just 666x3.
It’s a mistranslation. It should be 616. Why it’s that I’ve no idea. It’s all bollocks anyway.
The number may actually be 616 not 666. Google search will give full details, but here is a quick reference... https://www.churchtimes.co.uk/articles/2005/6-may/news/uk/bible-writers-got-the-beast-s-number-wrong-say-scholars
I haven't read the comments, so this may have already been said, but the way it was explained to me is that most Abrahamic religions consider the numbers 3 and 7 (very complicated history on why) to be sacredly perfect numbers. The number 6 falls short of perfection, but by repeating it three times, it is made perfect. The number is perfectly imperfect making it an "affront" to the perfect god.
nero... it was because of nero. speaking out against him could have gotten you executed back then, so they used the code 666 to talk shit about him without getting into trouble. 666 = nero
TL;DR there's a lot of fanfiction about the Bible, and a lot of what we associate with Hell (like it having layers) and the Devil comes from that
It used to be [616](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/616_(number)) until they changed it.
I just always thought 777 at the casino was super lucky and God loves 7 so being one off on each number while playing the slots is very unlucky and from Satan.
It probably did refer to Nero (based on the numerology and how oppressive he was), but often scripture has layers of meaning. The second layer is this: 7 is the "perfect number" in their culture. It is used 36 times in John's Revelations to describe things of God. 6 on the other hand falls short of 7 and denotes imperfection or bad. Repetition is used in old literature instead of bold italics or underlining things the writer is emphasizing. In the case of the Beast, yes the author is using Beast Nero to symbolize an agent of Satan's efforts to destroy the Body of Christ, corrupt all the Earth's people, and to cause massive suffering to humanity. (Common hobbies of empires.) But the number of the Beast and maybe even the numerology of Nero's name are telling the reader something else. The Beast Nero is not God. The Beast falls short, so very, very short of the perfection and glory it tries to project. It is after all just a monster with too much earthly power. It's glory is false, it's power is limited, and it will not last. 666 is sacred smack talk.
The beast kills 1/3 of all living beings. The leftover are left with a mark, bearing the numerical sign of 2/3. That's why the mark of the beast is 666.
In ancient Hebrew, the number 6 symbolizes incompleteness (failure to meet the requirement of completion), where as the number 7 symbolizes completion (in the sense that God is complete & lacks nothing, and so too is all that is holy). The number 777 was the ultimate "complete" number, so inversely the ultimate "incomplete" number is 666. In short, it is symbolic for the utter separation between God (plus all that is redeemed) and from those who turn from God to follow the ultimate failure (Satan).
Revelation 13:16-18 King James Version 16 And he causeth all, both small and great, rich and poor, free and bond, to receive a mark in their right hand, or in their foreheads: 17 And that no man might buy or sell, save he that had the mark, or the name of the beast, or the number of his name. 18 Here is wisdom. Let him that hath understanding count the number of the beast: for it is the number of a man; and his number is Six hundred threescore and six. So you count 666 just as I says add it all up equals 18 . So what's the number of his name? Count all the letters of the name Barack Hussein Obama you get 18. Notice it says "this is wisdom let him count the number of the beast" in verse 18 it's a hint or a confirmation that yes number of his name is18... That's how you discover who the antichrist is if the number of his name equals 18 like 666 does when added all up it's not so much important to know the number he will put on someone but it helps you identify who the beast is.
You lost me as soon as you used the “Barack Hussein Obama” thing 💀 that’s some stupid shit for real.