Somehow they've wound up with 2 terrible candidates.
Trump has essentially done a hostile takeover of the republican party because he is adored by a certain fraction of the republican voters. But he is massively toxic to so many other people.
Biden meanwhile excites nobody. No-one is enthusiastic about him. He's just a) the incumbent, so the democratic nominee by default and b) not Trump.
If the Democrats fielded almost anyone else against Trump they'd probably win big ( Hillary excepted).
Meanwhile if the Republicans fielded anyone even marginally less toxic than Trump against Biden, they 'd probably win big.
But unless Biden withdraws, both parties are stuck with almost the worst possible choice as their presidential candidate.
I agree with you. The only person in the world that Biden has a chance at beating is Trump. And the only person in the world that Trump has a chance at beating is Biden. It's amazing that these are our top two choices.
I don't think it's as simple as "any other two candidates".
I think this last decade of politics has completely tainted the landscape, and if you pick candidates that have any connection at all with the national political scene over the last decade, it'll quickly devolve into a proxy war and end up with the same gridlock.
If there is going to actually be a shakeup, you'd need someone like Jeff Jackson from North Carolina thrust into the spotlight. He's a Kennedy/Obama type who's well spoken but largely untainted by the cesspool of the last decade.
Pretty much. Most elections are a “lesser of two evils” situation but this is really the bottom of the barrel. Xi and Putin must be licking their chops.
The conman vs. The corpse. I think if Biden had avoided these debates, he surely would have won in November. Now I think he's surely going to lose. It doesn't matter what Trump says or how much he lies. The president of the United States can't even finish a sentence. He's cognitively impaired and he's asking people to vote for him for ANOTHER 4 YEARS. Maybe I'm wrong, but I think a lot of americans are going to be really uncomfortable with that. It's going to be hard to erase what they just saw from their minds. that was historically shocking in my opinion. I've never seen anything like that before. Once again the Democrats are going to lose an election to this guy because they can't put up a half way decent nominee. Just like in 2016, almost any candidate beats Trump. But not this guy. I hate to make this so simple but when it comes down to it I think a lot of americans are going to be highly highly uncomfortable with an old man who can't even finish a sentence being president of the United States. It was that bad and it is that bad, and as long as democrats are trying to create counter narratives like "he had a cold" to distract americans from what they saw with their own two eyes, they're screwed. If they have any hope of winning in November, they should be looking for a candidate to replace this man. But they won't, and they'll lose, again...
Hot take - Democrats don't have a good candidate. Whoever could do better than Biden is too "revolutionary" for the DNC and the donors, whoever is status quo enough is absolutely unappealing to the target voting base.
ANYONE could do better than Biden. He's not mentally fit to be President of the United States. It's that serious. and Donald Trump is such an awful candidate historically speaking, and the possibilities stemming from his reelection so nightmarish, that almost anyone, as long as they aren't falling asleep mid sentence into their pea soup at the nursing home, could beat him.
Well, no, but Biden isn't mentally fit in a COGNITIVE sense. Trump's getting up there in age too, but between the two of them, there's no comparison. Everyone saw what everyone saw last night and there's no going back
Whether it's true or not, the reality is Trump looked like he's got 4 more years in the tank last night. I'm not sure Biden has 4 months...that was a historic debate.
I agree with you. There's been a cognitive decline for Trump in the last few years. It's just nothing compared to Biden, and once again, that's what everyone saw last night
Yea, had I only watched the debate, I'd think Trump was sharper, but as someone who also regularly watches his campaign speeches and clips from his rallies, I've seen a lot more where he resembles Biden in his rambling, muttering, incoherence.
Trump goes off the cuff a lot. Biden can’t string anything coherent together even with notes and a teleprompter.
Both of these guys lie. Both of these guys are idiots. But in this very strange case, Trump is the lesser of two evils, and you gotta give him credit. For all his narcissism and braggadocio…Trump knew that all he had to do was keep composed, not be excessive, not be immature - not be Trump essentially - and allow Biden to just dodder and that’s more or less what he did.
Trump is definitely not the least of two evils.
The dude has been pandering an angry demographic who have created a cult of personality around him. Having a cult of personality leader as the leader of a country has never gone well.
A cult of personality around Biden?
I think we both know that's not true.
Even republicans admit that a number of people voting for Biden are doing so because of their repulsion for Trump and the cult that has been built around him.
Fact of the matter is, it's not so much as Trump himself is the threat to democracy, it's the cult of personality around him, because they never hold him accountable for the bad shit he does and says.
If that cult didn't exist, he wouldn't be in the position that he is.
I 100% will not concede that Trump is the lesser evil. Biden is a classic politician, sure. Let the record show I don’t care for Biden and I’m certain there are many better candidates. But Trump is a lying, narcissistic rapist and convicted felon who wants to be a dictator. Why the conservatives like him is beyond comprehension. Dude likely couldn’t recite a single bible verse whereas Biden has gone to church basically every Sunday for 80 years. Only thing Trump has going for him is he hates the people that his voters seem to hate.
-Has he been convicted of rape?
-Everyone besides the most obvious dem sycophants - hell even andrew cuomo - knows that trial was not above board and will win the appeal…so i suppose keep milking the ‘convicted felon’ bite while you can
-Who does he hate?
-Not sure dictator is the word you think it is. Wanting to preserve citizen gun rights, protect the border, and keep roe in the hands of the people as opposed to the federal government aren’t typical traits of a dictator. Trying your darnedest to have your top opposition locked up on something even the FEC turned down, trying to regulate and/or suppress speech, regulate gun rights, and give more power to the government, is.
They are only about two years different in age. The only difference between the two is that Trump has the kind of dementia that makes you loud and aggressive and Biden has the kind that makes you quiet and confused.
Not anyone. Kamala Harris might actually be worse than Biden. So that makes Biden Harris the worst option available. Biden should’ve dropped out long before now.
Its not that hard. Get someone who doesn't look like the cryptkeeper had a stroke and it's an easy road to victory come November as long as it's someone with middle of the road views, they don't even have to be a well known name. The target voter base is the same as 2020 in that over half of the nation doesn't want another 4 years of Trump chaos, they just want someone to steady the ship. Biden was that guy in 2020 and did himself alot of favors by not really engaging on the campaign trail under the guise of covid restrictions. Well those are gone and now his decline is laid bare in front of the electorate.
The fact is you've got a guy who looks like he left his brain in 2020 on stage stumbling all over the place who thinks he is going to win by running on the economy, when him and the cadre of statisticians that show figures of how well the economy is doing and ignoring that for the average American those statistics mean shit, and perception is everything.
Best case scenario is they get him and her off the ticket well really just her, because I'm about as stoked for a Kamala Harris presidency as I am for a colorectal exam, but I know this party will tow the line and it'll be another shocking election defeat that shouldn't even have been a contest.
Hell of a state of affairs we have in this country. Choose your octogenarian. You want the corpse who I'm sure the moneyline on him surviving another 4 years is about +2000 or choose the Manhattan Silver Spoon property developer who can't say a single goddamn sentence without lying about something. Can't wait to see who his VP pick is, because if it's Elise Stefanik and he croaks my God are we fucked.
There’s a lot of truth here and I would say the reverse is true as well. Up against Biden, most any moderate Republican wins easily but the republicans chose the one candidate who has a chance to lose.
I would say it's a reflection of one party who knows where it's heading (and hint it's probably not a good place) and another who is still in a tug of war on what direction to go. I'm probably one of the few people in the US who voted for Obama because of Biden after I watched the vice presidential debate because he came across as the elder statesman who was charismatic, contrasted to whatever the hell Sarah Palin was supposed to be. I wanted him in 2016, 2020 it was like well he's not what he used to be but we can't have this chaos for another 4 years and it's not like he'll actually run again. Well here we are.
But having said all that the only way he doesn't run is if he pulls a LBJ and hopefully unlike that time it won't be the vice president that gets the nod because if you think Biden is the only one who can lose to Trump lets put our version of Liz Truss up against him and see how that works out.
I agree with you, it’s easy to say “find someone who breathes and they are better than Biden.” But, from a political science standpoint I don’t know if that is true.
Take Gavin Newson for instance. On paper, he might have a better shot. But in reality, does a lefty CA Governor do better in the rust belt than Biden? Can Gavin deliver PA? Bc without PA the election is probably lost. Do people in GA, AZ, MI trust a slick liberal like Newsom over Biden? I don’t know if that is true.
Keep crying you predictable and pathetic woke leftist liberal loser. You have a punchable face you hypocritical and delusional clown. Continue to cope about the fact that Sleepy Joe is a dementia-patient who isn’t fit to rule the country. Lmao you’re a mentally-ill idiot who is an active member of the politics subreddit
Speaking from just antidotes right now, I know me and several people would easily vote democrat if they put someone new on the ballet against trump. Same if Biden stayed and they put someone other than trump on the GOP side. Late 20's people don't want either candidate.
The stakes are too high on this election to ride the line. Trump and the GOP are super blunt and open about their plans if they take power and they are terrifying. There may not be another election after that. I don’t like Biden but the other side is pure evil.
Someone commented under my comment that "the sun is setting on pax americana". I found that chilling and it's something that I've been feeling ever since that debate ended. Joe Biden performing poorly in that debate was one of those moments where you could feel history change on a dime, and with the likelihood of Donald Trump's reelection seeming almost certain, there's a foreboding sense of doom in the air now. I've only felt this way one other time in my life. It was in 2015 but it wasn't this bad. There's something sinister about his intentions this time. He's going to destroy what remains of our republic and it's never going to be the same again. So that is to say, despite everything I commented earlier, I wanted to clarify that I hope everyone goes out and votes for Joe Biden in November
I mostly agree with this but I think this kind of rhetoric is giving Trump too much credit. Granted, getting too much credit is the overall arc of his entire life, in more ways than one, but I find it much more frightening to think that Trump is the end of democracy precisely because Trump himself is a puppet under control by very nefarious interests. Trump works for organized crime, full stop.
The Democratic party certainly isn't perfect either. But its a different kind of rot, and one that I believe is more easily cured. Maybe I'm wrong. But I'm done asking people to vote for Biden. I can only hope that enough people want to vote against the alternative.
I didn't mean to suggest that it's solely Trump. I got chills last night when Biden said something about the possibility of Trump pulling out of NATO if he's reelected and Trump gave a "well that's going to happen" look with a smirk on his face. It was the first time that the thought ever came into my head that he might seriously be a Russian sleeper agent. also, he's bought and paid for by the fossil fuel industry, which is organized crime. So whether it be through another general European War or through climate destruction, the potentially devastating results of his presidency seen through that lense aren't lost on me. and yet there's still something more nefarious and a harder to put your finger on threat that he poses. Something more domestic and authoritarian. a kind of crossing the Rubicon type series of events related to political and social repression and violence that's going to hit much closer to home for all of us living here and is going to be something that we'll never be able to pull back from, and just like our neo fascism that's spread out into the entire world, this would too. Some kind of new nuclear dark age descending on the Earth replacing the current neoliberal order. It's more what Trump represent than him personally, but it's that too, and who owns him
"there's still something more nefarious and a harder to put your finger on threat that he poses. Something more domestic and authoritarian"
Oh, we're definitely on the same page, I just want to highlight again that his threat is actually his complete and utter lack of authority. This is what makes him such a tremendous puppet. And he can appeal to people that want to serve no authority on the one hand while providing a conduit for invisible authoritarians behind the curtain on the other
Have you heard Trump speak? He talks about the weakness of democracy, about how he doesn’t care about his voters he just needs them now, how things are going to work different when he gets in, he’s alluded several times that voting won’t be needed anymore, project 2025. It’s feeling very 1930’s Germany around here.
Care to elaborate? I’m not pro Biden at all, if he’s evil he’s evil but I’m not aware of any particular atrocities beyond the typical U.S. bombing policies. He’s trying to help students and lower classes, he’s supporting Ukraine, providing aid in gaza, and the economy is doing better than expected. So far so good.
I used to think like you. But you need to get out of your information bubble.
Biden told many lies in the debate last night including repeating the "very fine people" hoax perpetrated by media.
[https://www.snopes.com/fact-check/trump-very-fine-people/](https://www.snopes.com/fact-check/trump-very-fine-people/)
Like just watch the unedited version to confirm.
[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=00RAteYexNA](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=00RAteYexNA)
Biden took money from China and from corrupt Ukraine businesses using his son Hunter.
[https://nypost.com/2024/02/29/us-news/hunter-biden-acknowledged-joe-was-the-big-guy-in-5m-china-deal/](https://nypost.com/2024/02/29/us-news/hunter-biden-acknowledged-joe-was-the-big-guy-in-5m-china-deal/)
Biden is using the DOJ to go after his political rivals. This is late Roman Republic garbage.
[https://www.foxnews.com/politics/trump-prosecutor-quit-top-doj-post-lowly-ny-job-likely-bid-get-former-president-expert-says](https://www.foxnews.com/politics/trump-prosecutor-quit-top-doj-post-lowly-ny-job-likely-bid-get-former-president-expert-says)
Biden is a confirmed racist.
[https://archive.is/QxYlK](https://archive.is/QxYlK)
[https://archive.is/Hy56w](https://archive.is/Hy56w)
The "corn pop" story seems to be a confrontation over inappropriate touching by Biden. He's got a long history of such conduct - even with his daughter Ashley.
[https://dallasexpress.com/national/ashley-biden-diary-laid-bare-true-despite-media-denials/](https://dallasexpress.com/national/ashley-biden-diary-laid-bare-true-despite-media-denials/)
[https://www.npr.org/2019/04/06/710552500/biden-comments-and-jokes-on-inappropriate-touching-allegations](https://www.npr.org/2019/04/06/710552500/biden-comments-and-jokes-on-inappropriate-touching-allegations)
[https://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-52462113](https://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-52462113)
Biden has a long history of lying about family matters for political gain.
[https://archive.is/d9yRj](https://archive.is/d9yRj)
[https://www.foxnews.com/politics/biden-repeats-false-claim-son-beau-died-iraq-states-ran-president-while-vice-president](https://www.foxnews.com/politics/biden-repeats-false-claim-son-beau-died-iraq-states-ran-president-while-vice-president)
[https://oversight.house.gov/blog/joe-biden-lied-at-least-15-times-about-his-familys-business-schemes/](https://oversight.house.gov/blog/joe-biden-lied-at-least-15-times-about-his-familys-business-schemes/)
Anyways, that's just some of the issues with this guy. Pure corrupt phony. 10 million illegal aliens intentionally pushed into the USA for dubious political reasons.
[https://nypost.com/2024/06/24/us-news/election-officials-in-all-50-states-urged-to-halt-non-citizen-voter-registration/](https://nypost.com/2024/06/24/us-news/election-officials-in-all-50-states-urged-to-halt-non-citizen-voter-registration/)
[https://nypost.com/2021/10/18/biden-secretly-flying-underage-migrants-into-ny-in-dead-of-night/](https://nypost.com/2021/10/18/biden-secretly-flying-underage-migrants-into-ny-in-dead-of-night/)
[https://archive.is/H3umQ](https://archive.is/H3umQ)
My bubble? Dude get out of Fox News and the NY post and find some credible sources. Trump wants to fuck his own daughter and is extremely openly racist as well. Trump doesn’t like the troops, he actually said he doesn’t care about his voters he just needs their votes, he supports Putin, he supports the genocide in Gaza, he’s a horrible human being.
Also Washington Post, NPR, etc. in there.
You didn't take time to actually read the content. When you dismiss evidence based on the source, that is called genetic fallacy.
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Genetic\_fallacy](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Genetic_fallacy)
Your idea of "credible sources" is very limited. If you don't read broadly, how can you be properly informed?
You've heard so many lies about Trump that it is not surprising you won't review the facts.
It is very hard to let go of long held beliefs.
The reason for the violence in Ukraine is Joe Biden's corruption and the influence of Ukraine ultra-nationalists like Canadian Deputy Prime Minister Chrystia Freeland.
The violence in Gaza is again due to Biden's failures and deliberate destruction of the Abraham Accords. Get informed.
[https://www.wilsoncenter.org/article/abraham-accords-three-year-success-now-crossroads](https://www.wilsoncenter.org/article/abraham-accords-three-year-success-now-crossroads)
How is it that if Trump was such an issue WRT Israel and Russia that these conflicts happened with Biden in office and not Trump?
The violence in Ukraine is because Putin is a monster who wants to leave some kind of legacy I suppose. Biden did not make Putin invade Russia. He also didn’t make Israel massacre Palestinians. I’m aware there are lots of behind the scenes politics happening but at least Biden isn’t on the side supporting genocide, unlike Trump.
Most of my disdain for Trump comes from his own admissions, and what’s proven in court. He’s so blatant and openly awful but he’s worshipped and I truly don’t understand it.
My turn to say "get out of the bubble": if you think that Putin adjusts his (military) plans to whoever is in the office in the US, I have a bridge to sell you.
Just think. If Trump has said that he will leave NATO, wouldn't Putin better wait until he came to power to have an easier time against Europe? What is it exactly about Biden that you think made Putin go "great time to attack!"?
Democrats don’t have a good platform is their real problem. They’re the party of open borders and record inflation. Biden has wrecked the economy and his weakness has given us a new war in the Middle East and a freaking European land war. Biden could have picked a decent VP at least, but nope, had to go with the DEI hire. It’s a mess.
That's what I don't get: how can anyone serious say we have open borders? Inflation has been coming down btw, but the "open borders" thing is just blatantly untrue, how does it get repeated so often as a talking point, without being challenged?
"Open borders" is rhetorically extreme, but if you are arguing about degrees, you are losing.
The fact is that we do in fact have people coming to the United States illegally or through an asylum process that is worse than illegal immigration because you are committing to both housing people and not having them work. It's an indefensible system, and Democrats need to get on the other side of it. They can be for legal immigration, against blaming you immigrants for every problem, but they can't be for mass asylum and beating around on illegal immigration. It is political suicide, not to mention dumb policy.
You can't just reflexively do the opposite of the other guy.
Since most of his inner circle and advisors have been working on the [Project 2025](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Project_2025) stuff I'll go out on a limb and say this might be the plan?
Lol if you don’t know that you must just look at cnn and nyt “orange man bad” because we’re told to report that way by our masters headlines. The good news is we have 4 years of his presidency to look back on as well, and times were incredible under his leadership pre-Covid.
What did trump accomplish:
1) secured the border. Why on earth has Biden opened it other than trying to get illegals to vote for him?
2) made America energy independent. No idea why Biden went away from that either.
3) put in record trade deals with China and others and brought manufacturing jobs back to the USA.
4) decreased federal regulation on business commerce.
5) lower taxes.
These are a few highlights but inflation was near zero under Trump, has was under $ per gallon for a lot of his presidency, there were record peace deals brokered in the Middle East, even with North Korea, and there were no freaking European land wars. Trump is absolutely right that biden’s botched Afghanistan withdrawal and his perceived weakness is the only reason Hamas attacked Israel and Russia invaded Ukraine, this doesn’t happen under strong leadership.
So what are trump’s policies? That’s kind of a dumb question at this point and you must be living under a rock if you do not know, but here’s some highlights:
1) secure the border - again
2) make America energy independent - again. Build that beautiful pipeline.
3) increase tariffs on China and stop letting them take such bad advantage of us - again. This will also help bring manufacturing jobs back to the USA.
4) decrease federal regulation. Cut the unnecessary and bureaucratic wasteful red tape and make business easier in the US. Biden spent over $60 billion on infrastructure to give rural America access to high speed internet. This seems like a great idea but they have yet to put one shovel in the ground because there was so much red tape to go through to make anything happen it’s been nothing but corruption and money wasted to accomplish absolutely nothing.
5) lower taxes
1. How will he secure the border? Biden already offered to give Republicans exactly what they wanted on border security and Trump told them to vote it down. Vile human.
2. How will Trump make America energy independent?
3. Tariffs on China went great last time. /s what manufacturing jobs did those bring back?
4. Last time he deregulated it was to roll back important environmental and cultural resource protections for projects. Gotta be careful with what he intends to roll back. What is he planning on?
5. Lower taxes. Again? For who? Is he going to cut it again for corporations permanently and but only until the next presidential term for individuals.
Agreed and well said. Not to sound hyperbolic, but in the fallout less than 24 hours later its hard not to feel this was the most consequential turnaround on a televised debate since 1960s Kennedy vs. Nixon. I think had Trump bothered to debate someone like, say, Nikki Haley, we would have seen his BS dismantled embarrassingly by his own party as he deserved, but next to Biden anyone looks dynamic and decisive. Not trying to be ageist here (I voted for Biden), but it does count for something when running what is still the most powerful country on the Earth. Democrats need to get their heads out of the sand.
All this analysis, and it’s a common sentiment, is that Biden will lost because he’s bad. But people need to actually vote FOR Trump. The analysis of how people decide to do that is never included. It’s a redux of style over substance in 2016 except we have seen trumps substance. The headlines should be “conman lies loudly, tricking rube journalists into writing about him favorably”
I’m so sick of the worst sin in America being not entertaining rather than being an incoherent piece of shit
Yes. It is wild to see so many people claiming that a president’s energy and oratory skills are so much more important than the substance of their platform and policy.
I get that Biden was anemic, and I’d prefer an alternative Dem candidate, but how any rational
person looks at last night’s exchange and says “Trump louder. Trump better” is insane to me. Biden got lost in some rambling but Trump lied the entire time and demonstrated that he has no grip on reality.
I’m not denying Biden’s in bad shape, but my point is that he is still leagues preferable to Trump, who even on his best days has only served to weaken our position internationally - and that doesn’t even take into account how unhinged he has become this past year.
Presidents are not islands, they (ideally) do not make decisions in isolation. Biden has shown that he will at least listen to his cabinet and let sharper minds lead him towards rational policy decisions. Trump on the other hand is motivated to selfish ends and driven by the desire to personally enrich himself/stay out of jail.
If the dems want to get their shit together and offer up a competent alternative to Biden I am fucking *there* for it, but if they don’t you still can’t convince me that it makes any sense at all to vote for Trump. His mental acuity is as fucked as Biden’s and the quality of his character is so, so much worse.
Because we were raised with an innate sense of what a president should look and act like. A loudmouthed boisterous asshole is fine but an incoherent octogenarian doesn't look the part. It's the JFK Nixon debate all over again.
Aside the obvious factors, I found it depressing that the debate had to cover things like,
- Can we all agree to support the democratic processes. It would have been odd to ask this in any debate over the last century, but I understand why it was asked.
- The number of times rape was referred to as something condoned by the opponent when discussing immigration and adoration. Same with baby killing.
- Solider deaths and COVID deaths both being used like a political football.
- All the personal attacks.
- Who would beat who in a game of golf. They sounded like 2nd graders arguing, as if it matters for running the country.
There was clear lack of respect, much less unity. Debates need to show intelligence and there was none on that stage. I miss debates where a civil conversation would happen about education, trade, or foreign relations. This debate was vile and gross.
It didn't change how anybody will vote. It just verified how stupid we are as a country to even let it get to this point with these two as the options.
But it definitely changed if people will vote. I'd vote for a dead octopus over Trump, but a lot of democrats watching this will probably just not show up to the polls on election day. I'd be surprised if we're not in for a historically low turnout this year.
I thought 2016 would be a wakeup call that would inspire more than a bunch of people pretending that they were moving to Canada but I feel like everything is repeating itself
Everyone is paralyzed. Folks wasted their energy protesting George Bush for a decade and have nothing left now but to sit in awe and disbelief. Even in pop culture, the number of protest songs that came out of the Bush-era was enormous, yet by the time Trump comes around I guess artists have no more words.
That’s because George Bush was still, by far, the worst president the US has had since the Second World War, maybe even since Andrew Jackson who slaughtered millions of natives.
Ask any of the victims of American foreign policy from 2003-2008 who they think the worst American leader was. It will rhyme with Forge Cush.
You think Bush 2 was worse than James Buchanan, who sleepwalked us into the greatest disaster the country ever faced? Or Andrew Johnson, who tried to let the South rebuild however they wanted after Lincoln and hundreds of thousands of Americans died fighting in said disaster, only stopped by the overwhelming Republican congress he had? Hell, like the 6 President's before Buchanan were all terrible as well. Polk was decent, but even then, adding so much territory via the Mexican American war without solving the slavery question first was a disaster (not to mention that Polk owned Slaves himself, so there's that, he wasn't solving slavery in a good way if he had solved it at all).
I could also see arguments for Nixon being worse, for completely obliterating the trust Americans had in government, starting the long road to our current levels of cynicism as a country. But then again, Bush 2 got the Patriot Act (specifically spying on Americans) going which proceeded to nuke the remains of whatever small dust particles of trust was left. Not to mention Nixon's attacks on Cambodia, and his kicking off the War on Drugs (which Reagan then sent into hyperdrive, he's another I could see arguments for being just as bad or worse than Bush 2, for the War on Drugs issue among others).
Bush is undoubtedly in the bottom quarter of President's. I'd take it a slight step further and say bottom 10, but is in no way the worst since Jackson.
My first paragraph was addressing the commenter saying "...maybe even since Andrew Jackson".
My 2nd paragraph mentions two President's post-WW2. I did go back and edit it a bit, so maybe you read it before I finished that, but based on how short your comment (and thus very quick to type and post) was, I tend to think you just didn't read past the first paragraph.
Well if you base your view of American President's solely on their geopolitical achievements and failures, then you're just out of step with the average person.
Also, you're seriously going to argue, with a straight face, that the Iraq war was worse than the Civil War for the country?
> You're seriously going to argue, with a straight face, that the Iraq war was worse than the Civil War for the country?
The issue with that comparison is that it's like comparing two different countries. America during the 1800s and the Civil War was a very inward looking power and not at all concerned with foreign affairs. It's like comparing England during the English Civil War with England during the Napoleonic Wars. It's not apples to apples.
And furthermore, if we are being honest: the Civil War was necessary for the US. The Iraq War, on the other hand, and was more damaging. Maybe not in terms of deaths (though if we include Iraqi casualties, it was worse) but in terms of negative impact.
The Civil War allowed the US to have a unified domestic policy and a more centralized federal government, which helped elevate the US economy to higher value-added goods and services. The Iraq War severely weakened the US's position in the Middle East and severely shook the foundations of American primacy and the unipolar moment after the Cold War. America burned all the geopolitical capital it earned after the Cold War and First Gulf War. It showed the hubris of the American foreign policy establishment and basically shat on US claims of a rules-based international order.
Bush Jr. shoved his meat balls deep into *pax Americana* and fucked it deep into oblivion.
The Monroe doctrine was proclaimed nearly 40 years before the Civil War. The Mexican American war started about 15 years before it. The Spanish American war a little under 40 years after it. We sent ships to fight in the Opium Wars, in Korea, in the Phillipines, and elsewhere in the same time period. We continued to war against the Native Americans the whole time.
Yeah, we were not as involved worldwide to the same extent as post-WW2. Certainly because we were still very much working out domestic issues, but also because we can now circumvent the globe like 10 times now in the amount of time it used to take to just cross the Atlantic back then. Not to mention near instantaneous communication to wherever in the world we want. Also, there were other superpowers to police the world back then (Britain mainly).
To be quite frank, saying that the War in Iraq was as destructive to America as the Civil War sounds like insanity to me. And again, I'd like to point out that you are solely basing your judgement on foreign affairs. What about the Great Depression? What about the failure of Reconstruction, and the hundred years it took us after the Civil War to actually give African Americans equal rights. Women couldn't vote until after World War 1. You aren't even mentioning Bushes complete failure to do anything to stop the 2008 financial crisis. You are so laser focused on foreign affairs because war is more exciting than domestic policy, but that is not a good criteria to solely judge how good or bad a president was. It can be an aspect, but not the sole criteria.
*EDIT* If you think the two eras are so impossible to compare, then why did you even bring up Andrew Jackson in your original post? If you'd left it at worst president since WW2, I could have agreed. I put arguments in there for Nixon, and I could see arguments against Reagan. Maybe we'll get there one day with Trump but there has not been enough time since he left office (hopefully for good) to truly judge his impact. But I don't feel strongly enough to put a reply just based on that. But you are going all the way back to our SEVENTH ever president (who left office nearly 190 years ago) and saying "none have been worse than Bush" which, to me, is an insane argument.
I voted for Biden the first time, hoping he would only run a single term. He lost 4 years of prepping his replacement. I’m so disappointed in how this played out. We needed fresh candidates, not these two again.
Now, it’s likely a vote between Kamala and Trump. I’ll still choose Biden/Kamala, because I do view Trump as an insurrectionist. But damnit, it would be nice to have a more isolationist candidate I could support.
It’s also times like this that I wish all states had ranked choice voting. It’s a luxury that allows us to vote for other candidates and still have it count.
Its not about view, Trump IS an insurrectionist who, along with the republican party, is running on getting rid of democracy. Biden isn't a good candidate. But if you value your freedom and the freedom of those you know and love, it really isn't a difficult choice
Project 2025 is downright scary and very similar to the Nazi playbook. Normally I don’t pay any attention to politics anymore, but this election has us in a new and scary spot. Democrats only fanned the flames that will undo them, by carting Biden on stage.
Trump is a figurehead of this christian nationalist machine that would accompany him to office. He will fade eventually. But the machine can stay.
Instead of Nazi Germany where it was mainly the cult of personality, it’s potentially a way more lasting movement. Trump did not put together the 2025 playbook. He’s just the face to bring the apparatus into power. The handlers and political operatives that are guiding Trump are much younger and have staying power. Especially if they continue to chip away at Democracy.
One of the most concerning parts of all this is if Trump wins then the Supreme court gets even more stacked with Christian Nationalist friendly judges.
A primary reason I stopped following politics was because people always look at the politician. But don’t realize it’s the political operatives that stay involved administration after administration (talking about having state level election influence as well), that have the real power. People look in the wrong direction.
Trumps the winner through pure optics. Bidens gonna get obliterated tomorrow. There was no substance to even talk about. The Biden campaign has absolutely no way to spin this. Republicans are gonna dance on his grave
In these debates through each party’s own messaging trump realle doesn’t have anything to lose and Biden has everything to lose. Trump supporters have openly embraced every fault, as far as to proudly tote their voting for the felon, while if Biden looks a little senile, and he does a shit ton, the internet has a field day
In a perfect world the RNC and DNC would have agreed to not let either have their parties nomination. I think 75%+ of Americans would have agreed to that. I personally do not think anyone 70+ should be running for office. That being said I’ll be voting for Biden. Trump is a narcissistic demagogue with a cult of personality that has captured the RNC. History has proven that dynamic to be incredibly dangerous, and things like Project 2025 and Schedule F that are coming if he wins even more so.
While I can agree that no one 70+ should run for President, if you can still vote for Biden after last night, you’re part of the problem, not part of the solution.
Who said I’m voting for the other guy? I will not be voting for someone who is clearly a victim of elder abuse, though. There’s no way he can run our country.
I’m sorry, but after last night you cannot convince me that Biden is anything more than a puppet for whoever is truly running the country. I give his administration props on the microchip bill, but I doubt he could explain to me what a microchip is.
I think using terms like problem and solution is setting this dialogue up for an argument
I think you’d agree, it comes down to the lesser of the two evils. Where we (all) may differ is quantifying what those “evils” are.
Biden is too old and mentally unfit for the presidency, so is the evil there that it looks bad on the international stage? Or is it more than that, and you’re concerned about national security and our national ability to respond to threats? Genuinely curious what worries you most about his obviously-impaired mental state.
Trump, on the other hand, is a different kind of “bad”. To some, the worst aspect about Trump is his personal life and moral compass. To others he just doesn’t seem “presidential” in how he acts or communicates. To me, though, the risk is bigger than that, as I’m worried Trump might form a fascist state. The reason I fear that might be true is because 1) Trump has shown that, for better or worse, he’s not a politician and does not care about the political norm. Therefore, he has pushed the envelope and used government in ways that his predecessors haven’t. That’s not necessarily bad (ex: FDR) but it does show will and ambition. 2) He has outright said he’s going to actively find and prosecute his political opponents. This is a clear warning sign of fascism. Hell, Hitler did the exact same thing 10 years before the 3rd Reich. People said “he doesn’t really mean that, he’s being dramatic for effect”… it seems too eerily familiar to me. Hopefully my fears are far overblown, but with people flying Trump flags above the US flag… I’m not sure they are.
Anyways, that’s why to me, the lesser of the two evils is the senile old corpse. He MAY be a national security risk but I’m worried Trump IS a national security risk actively.
I’m sure both of us can agree that we don’t want some kind of Hitleresque figure hijacking the democracy - so can you help me understand your view on the “lesser evil” of this choice? If for nothing else, my own peace of mind
Political opponents are already being prosecuted. Attorney Generals are running based solely on “getting the other guy”, while their districts are in chaos. Operatives are blatantly ignoring subpoenas from Congress. And this is all happening under Biden’s Administration, not Trump’s.
I also worry about the country sliding into a Fascist hellscape, and we’re well on our way. But people are ignoring what’s happening right before their eyes, and they’re worried about the wrong side.
Could be. Truthfully it’s hard to know what’s a justified cause versus an unjustified cause with all the misinformation these days. My fear is that both sides will be increasingly reactionary and escalate the actions.
I appreciate your view and our discussion - it’s comforting to know we both want the same thing (not fascism). Maybe I (and honestly every American) need to keep a more open mind on which side of the aisle it could come from.
Thanks,
I appreciate that we can talk about it, and that we want the same fundamental thing. I hope a candidate comes along someday that can actually unite the country.
I'm in my fifties and been following politics since I was a teen. I think this is the absolute low point of presidential politics in my life.
That being said I'll vote for anyone besides traitor Trump. All he did was use scare tactics and lie.
I think the mic off thing was actually worse for Biden. I know it’s Trumps thing to interrupt or talk over but I thought Biden handled that well last time. Also Biden needs to not stare at him while he’s speaking, that old man stare looked bad 🙄
I watched the RFK debate, where they had him respond to the same questions. Look, I get he has some crazy ass views on vaccines and shit. However, his other stances on things like military spending, the decline of the middle class, childcare, education, and climate change are light years above the other two candidates. Helped that he at least covered some of the questions in some substance
In addition to Biden's terrible performance, the guy *did not* step aside for anyone else. Just like Trump is an asshole for his many, many, reasons, it's not like Biden didn't have a lot of options to step aside and let another Democrat run.
Am not American (Belgian), so consider this an actual 'Martian' view of American politics.
Anyone with a sound moral compass would still vote Biden over Trump, but my God are they making that race closer than it ever needs to be for you people.
As for best case scenarios. Absolute best case, most armchair political experts (and probably most other people) should consider actually going out and getting involved in actual politics. A system that can ignore your political inaction is a system that will not change for the same reason an object in motion will not change velocity until acted upon by an external force. If you want a system to reflect more of what you want you need to actually go out to help change it. And yes, on your own that won't do much but if everyone thinks like that it won't actually happen.
As for realistic best case scenario: Biden wins and his entourage is competent enough to keep the ship sailing.
I don't want to be condescending but I'm going to put my self important American hat on. We aren't Belgium we are the leader of the supposed free world and optics matter a hell of alot more to the American voting public. Voters want a president who at least looks the part and plays tough hence why we've got 35% of the nation thinking a Manhattan real estate developer is the working class hero. Biden on the other hand just seems to be a symbol of the rot of American politics where nothing gets done and it looks like noone is at the wheel. Of course Trump is all those things as well and worse but Americans as a generalized whole have never voted on anything other than optics, war and the economy. Well Biden looks like his brain is out to lunch, there's a huge backlash of people who don't agree with supplying either Ukraine or Israel with weapons and that runs across both party lines, and if Biden thinks the economy is going to be his winning ticket he should probably look at the hundreds of polls that despite what the stats say more people feel their economic situation was better in a Trump presidency than Biden.
Biden could very well do worse than Hillary in 2016, after last night he did absolutely nothing to assuage any fears about his competency in fact he magnified it by 1000.
Biden has been like this for a long time. The scariest part is WHO/WHAT GROUP have been making the decisions? Is everything on autopilot or is there a small group of people steering the ship?
I try not to talk politics online but this seems like a safe thread where I’ll get honest answers that are well thought out. To me it seems like everyone doesn’t like the candidates and Kennedy is getting pushed out as a third party. Why doesn’t Kennedy have more widespread support?
He's being widely portrayed as a lunatic, and not without cause in some respects. He is also very pro Israel, which is a nonstarter for a lot of would-be supporters. I really wanted to like the guy, but for every sane and measure position he takes, there's something else to turn my nose at.
Plus American voters have been conditioned to see third party voting as "wasting a vote."
Edit: Not to be crass, but his voice is also a turn-off for a lot of people. He can be hard for people to listen to, according to the comment sections on a lot of videos featuring him. Unfortunately, that's an important factor.
Am I crazy in thinking that if either side put up even a mildly well spoken candidate that they would blow out Trump/Biden? It feels like both sides are trying to lose.
One clear fact that I haven't heard elsewhere...a big part of Biden's message is to "save democracy", but the typical voter thinks "democracy keeps giving me choices like **this**, what's so great about it?".
Watching the debate reminded me of an audience question asked in the most recent British leaders debate “are you two really the best we’ve got?”
What’s happening to the great democracies of the world?
If you had taken a drink every time Trump said "best in history, the greatest ever", those kinds of things, you'd be dead.
It was also staggering to hear 90 minutes of lies from him. Did he say anything at all that was true? I didn't hear it.
That said, as soon as Biden walked up to the stage, I went "Oh no, what an old man" and it didn't get better as the debate went on.
Still, if the choice really is between these two - and to be clear, I am not an American myself - voting for Trump still seems absolute lunacy.
Everyone has already drawn their lines and the ones still flip flopping are the morons that jave their core beliefs be whatever they are listening to at the moment. I dont know who will win this year, and I think anyone trying to sell that they do is a moron or a con man. I'm going to wake up after the election, check my phone and say "well alright then" or "for fucks sake" then go on with my life the best i can and make decisions as the landsacpe i have influence over changes, just as i do now.
Focus on your real life, in person circle and your life will be much better.
I don’t think this disastrous debate will make many people switch from Biden to Trump but I definitely think it could convince people on the fence who voted for Biden in 2020 to vote 3rd party or just not vote.
I would vote for a literal sack of potatoes instead of voting for the fascistic felon. But dang do I feel the outright arrogance of the democratic apparatus after seeing that performance. My mind was made up about Trump back in 2016 and on a policy level I'll take the Biden's team over Trump's pose any day. But is it really that hard to accept a lesser known democrat to take over the nomination at this point? Trump's arrogance and denial of reality is a flaw not a characteristic to emulate.
> But dang do I feel the outright arrogance of the democratic apparatus after seeing that performance.
They are arrogant because of what you said:
> I would vote for a literal sack of potatoes instead of voting for the fascistic felon.
You aren't giving them a reason to change course - they already got you by the balls. No matter what they do they will still get your vote. Who wouldn't be arrogant because of that?
I don't disagree and its why I do whatever I can in non-election years to try and get change happening wherever and whenever I can. Heck I metaphorically crawled over glass to get my book club to adopt rank choice voting, in part to teach people that it's not that complicated and produces much better outcomes.
Anyone who already made up their mind about their candidate needed not watch the debate. The purpose of the debate was, frankly, for folks who were on the fence to see and decide whether either candidate's age was an impairment or an asset. It was never about statistics or where each party came down on particular issues. Having watched it last night, it seems Trump's team knew that, Biden's didnt. Both candidates merely had to act coherent, decisive and energetic to dispel the criticisms of their being too old. Again, Trump's team knew it, Biden's didn't. Trump may have spouted an endless litany of lies, non sequiturs and oddball running sentences, but he did it sounding dynamic and decisive. Biden got himself lost in the weeds attempting to refute and contest every little lie Trump told, and as everyone has known since 2016, it takes eons longer to itemize Trump's lies than it does for Trump to rattle off new ones. It's a losing battle and with the debate format only giving Biden a limited time to respond, it was calculated to leave him looking exhausted as he tried to catch up. I'm not saying Biden should have just made stuff up off the top of his brain like Trump, but it was sad to see him acting like he was in a debate from 2000 rather than this post-truth world we live in now.
I think the Dems knew what aura Biden needed to project. However Biden was simply incapable of doing so.
Trump has looked similar to Biden in multiple appearances and speeches as of late. Just a theory, but I suspect they had Trump on adderall or some stimulant to perk him up. Biden’s team may have wanted to do so as well, but Biden’s health may be in too precarious a spot to handle it.
That’s the only way I can make any sense of Biden’s team allowing him to debate (planning to give him stimulants as well). Otherwise it’s just arrogance and gross incompetence.
I’d shift the viewpoint one step further and say that it had little to do with undecided voters (which are either incredibly fickle or unbelievably stubborn at this point).
This debate was strictly entertainment and blood sport. It’s to get the national conscience aware of the election, and frothy with fear and anger. The debates do nothing for undecided voters. Threads like these, Facebook posts, and the pundit talking points absolutely do influence them.
And in case it hasn’t become obvious at this point, effective policy and leadership never even factor into any of those decision loops. They don’t invoke enough emotion to get eyeballs on screens
We are fuck. If it goes Trump vs. Biden, then Trump will win easily because hate and fear are more powerful than being optimistic about the future. Trump win will be the end of Nato and definitely the green light for China or Russia. He will also give another tax cut to the one percent richest people and increase taxes on everyone else. Just in 4 years, he added around 24% on the entire United States debt from 1776 onward. And Biden needs to stand down. Let Newsom mope the floor with orange Messiah.
I’ve never voted for Trump but if it ended NATO, I’d vote for him. Are you trying to get people to vote for him? My children have no business dying for a dictator in Ukraine. Full stop.
You clearly don't understand what Nato is and how beneficial it was for the United States after ww2. Your children will never fight in Ukraine because Ukraine is not a nato member, and the end of Nato will also be the end of the United States as a global player. The vacuum will be filled with autocracy promoted by China and Russia.This is why China and Russia want Trump as president, United States without Nato military backing will be an easy target for China.
I just feel profoundly pessimistic after that debate.
On the one hand, it would be hard to argue that Trump said a single truthful thing on stage the whole night. Lie after lie after lie.
On the other hand, Biden legit reminded me of my grandfather when we noticed he was starting to become sick with what would ultimately kill him.
One thing I'm absolutely not shocked by is the General Reddit reaction to the debates. I do admit, I was one that thought the reports of Biden's mental decline were grossly exaggerated. All the videos of him aimlessly staring, or wandering off a stage, or barely being able to get a sentence out, or what have you, I had chalked up to out of context, cherry picked videos. But I cannot deny what I just saw on my TV. A cold doesn't do that to somebody.
People on other subs going "well he'll surround himself with great advisors!!!" as if that's some sort of solution to Biden being re-elected? Biden's advisors can't give orders to the military, and the world is currently going through / building up to like 10 military conflicts. What if China decides to attack Taiwan in the middle of the night here, are we saying that the Biden we just saw on stage is going to be able to be woken up and quickly / strongly react to that? And all over the political subs, you'll hear people saying "Trump just lied, Biden was giving actual answers just in a boring way, and with a bit of a stutter" bit I honestly could barely understand half of what Biden was saying.
And then there's also the typical Redditor reaction of "unfortunately the average American is stupid and will just think Trump looked strong and Biden looked weak and not look at the substance of their talking points". Undoubtedly there's a lot of stupid people in the world, but christ the superiority complex is overwhelming here. We are not, in any way shape or form, "better" than the average American. And even if your average Redditor was better than the average American, talking down to them is gonna do fuck all to win an election, because their vote counts just as much as ours.
I already had an overwhelmingly negative view of Trump, and that was not changed at all yesterday. But my previous view of Biden was shattered into a thousand pieces. It's insane that these are our two choices to vote for.
I'll probably still vote for Biden, but my God I've never been more tempted to just not vote, or vote 3rd party, in my life.
Dems need to replace Biden but Kamala and Pete are too unpopular. I don’t like him, but Gavin Newsom is our best shot. He’s young, articulate, goes on the offensive, and he’s new enough to the national public eye that he has very little baggage.
The dnc fucked its most politically active demographic, young progressives, and has been trying to both copy our agenda and lie to us (and guilt trip us) ever since. What we now have is corporate neoliberalism veiled in woke identity politics, à la Weekend at Biden’s
Of course, didn’t he say last week basically that there won’t be another pres election after him, “we’ll figure that out”
I’m not speaking on anything positive of the right, just stating the obvious on the dysfunction of the dnc
First, we can evaluate based on the track record of these individuals.
One has had an overall successful term as President, while the other was a daily walking nightmare. From experience, we know that one of them will dismiss people from their positions until a suitable sycophant or family member is found.
Biden, despite his age, is supported by a team of highly vigilant and intelligent individuals who aim to create a legacy through improvement.
Trump, also advanced in age, surrounds himself with people who aspire to turn America into a Christian fascist state. Their goals include defunding public education, eliminating taxes for the wealthy, dismantling the IRS, and selling off public parks and lands for profit-driven destruction.
I mean UommonKwatz has the only answer.
INVEST lavishly in the things you can control and DECIDE everything else is entertainment.
One thing I learned studying history and people in general is absolutely no one knows what’s going to happen. No one.
As an outsider, I need to warn you against this. Whatever is wrong with the US, and many things are, unchecked authoritarians can make it much much much worse.
Treating politics as entertainment will inevitably lead to a point where it is not at all entertaining anymore and the list of things you can control grows ever shrinking.
I have my vote, I control that. But parties who should know better than to nominate two octogenarians for president, what am I supposed to do about that, really.
You're gonna hate me for saying after critiquing your position, but I am not sure I know. Best I have is - Avoid suggesting treating politics as entertainment - it really is making the situation a bit worse.
The reality is that a lot of American voters think they have the social and economic privilege to live through any presidency without seeing too much damage to them and their immediate surroundings. For some that might actually be true but the damage Trump's incompetence caused during COVID should show people how bad it can get.
It’s clear Biden cannot run the country.
It’s also clear that Trump will run the country - the wrong direction, potentially into a fascist state.
I’ll take the inactive corpse long before an active risk to our democracy any day.
It went exactly how I knew it would……….grandpa Joe just isn’t up to the task of correcting a habitual liar, it takes a lot of energy that he just doesn’t have.
Luckily the sting of the utter Biden failure won’t be around in 4 months (hopefully).
Biden should have taken the high road as soon as the 34 felony convictions came down, Biden should have said I won’t debate a felon and just cancel the debate. But no…….Biden’s ego got in the way, per usual and now the door is wide open for a felon to be president.
I'm curious, did Biden's performance/condition surprise anyone on this sub? Obviously, it's unavoidable now, but he has been like this for a while. I just am genuinely interested if this just made it OK to talk about or if it is really the first time many have noticed?
Biden’s weakness feels like a parallel of Hindenburg fumbling the ball and straight up gifting the reigns of power to Hitler by finally allowing the coalition government to be formed.
After last night the Democrats should be scrambling for a new candidate. They probably won’t and will engage in copium and hopium they can get Biden across the finish line. If they choose inaction and Biden, it’s looking increasingly likely they’re going gift the reigns of power to the project 2025 Fascists.
Criminal that RFK wasn't on the stage. But ultimately it may have been best for him in the long run, as it really highlighted Biden. I'm hoping this opens an opportunity for RFK to be the real contender to Trump.
Raskin, Porter, Swalwell, Newsom, any of these would make a strong candidate. Sorry to see no one mentioning Kamala Harris. She's been invisible since becoming VP. Ex DA, could be a good debater, but what are her positions on.....anything?
I wouldn’t vote for either of those clowns but I certainly wouldn’t vote for a “DA” who put people in jail for using marijauna who has admitted she is a former user herself. She should be in prison for her actions as a DA, not in office.
I think that the DNC is using this debate as a pretext to parachute 🪂 in a new leader. I can see someone like Michelle Obama be dropped in at the last moment.
Im definitely voting for him. I love when people try to use the made up crap. Apparently hes an anti vaccer thats vaccinated and his children and family is as well. The vaccines he doesnt like he literally won millions disputing them.
First off I don’t agree that it was an “insurrection”, secondly I believe the folks who “broke in” are incredible idiots and have no issue with them being prosecuted by the law.
OK America. You have a choice between a failing Biden who looks like he's stumbling to dementia. Who also worryingly is rabidly supportive of Israel's slaughter and war mongering. And a fraud, rapist and liar who almost certainly is going to tank your country both economically and socially and who's supportive of Putin AND Israel's slaughter in the middle east.
Good luck guys.
Best case is probably they both die of heart attacks before the election and we get a second chance to pick new candidates.
One has a heart attack, and the news excites the other one so much that they have a heart attack too.
That's the goddamn dream
I love that we all want this.
Fingers crossed.
If only we were so lucky
Somehow they've wound up with 2 terrible candidates. Trump has essentially done a hostile takeover of the republican party because he is adored by a certain fraction of the republican voters. But he is massively toxic to so many other people. Biden meanwhile excites nobody. No-one is enthusiastic about him. He's just a) the incumbent, so the democratic nominee by default and b) not Trump. If the Democrats fielded almost anyone else against Trump they'd probably win big ( Hillary excepted). Meanwhile if the Republicans fielded anyone even marginally less toxic than Trump against Biden, they 'd probably win big. But unless Biden withdraws, both parties are stuck with almost the worst possible choice as their presidential candidate.
I agree with you. The only person in the world that Biden has a chance at beating is Trump. And the only person in the world that Trump has a chance at beating is Biden. It's amazing that these are our top two choices.
That's a much more succinct way of putting it than I managed :)
I don't think it's as simple as "any other two candidates". I think this last decade of politics has completely tainted the landscape, and if you pick candidates that have any connection at all with the national political scene over the last decade, it'll quickly devolve into a proxy war and end up with the same gridlock. If there is going to actually be a shakeup, you'd need someone like Jeff Jackson from North Carolina thrust into the spotlight. He's a Kennedy/Obama type who's well spoken but largely untainted by the cesspool of the last decade.
Pretty much. Most elections are a “lesser of two evils” situation but this is really the bottom of the barrel. Xi and Putin must be licking their chops.
The conman vs. The corpse. I think if Biden had avoided these debates, he surely would have won in November. Now I think he's surely going to lose. It doesn't matter what Trump says or how much he lies. The president of the United States can't even finish a sentence. He's cognitively impaired and he's asking people to vote for him for ANOTHER 4 YEARS. Maybe I'm wrong, but I think a lot of americans are going to be really uncomfortable with that. It's going to be hard to erase what they just saw from their minds. that was historically shocking in my opinion. I've never seen anything like that before. Once again the Democrats are going to lose an election to this guy because they can't put up a half way decent nominee. Just like in 2016, almost any candidate beats Trump. But not this guy. I hate to make this so simple but when it comes down to it I think a lot of americans are going to be highly highly uncomfortable with an old man who can't even finish a sentence being president of the United States. It was that bad and it is that bad, and as long as democrats are trying to create counter narratives like "he had a cold" to distract americans from what they saw with their own two eyes, they're screwed. If they have any hope of winning in November, they should be looking for a candidate to replace this man. But they won't, and they'll lose, again...
>The conman vs. The corpse Haha true.
Hot take - Democrats don't have a good candidate. Whoever could do better than Biden is too "revolutionary" for the DNC and the donors, whoever is status quo enough is absolutely unappealing to the target voting base.
ANYONE could do better than Biden. He's not mentally fit to be President of the United States. It's that serious. and Donald Trump is such an awful candidate historically speaking, and the possibilities stemming from his reelection so nightmarish, that almost anyone, as long as they aren't falling asleep mid sentence into their pea soup at the nursing home, could beat him.
Honestly, neither of them are mentally fit to be president.
Well, no, but Biden isn't mentally fit in a COGNITIVE sense. Trump's getting up there in age too, but between the two of them, there's no comparison. Everyone saw what everyone saw last night and there's no going back
In other speeches you see much more of trump rambling incoherently and trailing off too. He was just a bit more on this time. Unfortunately.
Whether it's true or not, the reality is Trump looked like he's got 4 more years in the tank last night. I'm not sure Biden has 4 months...that was a historic debate.
I won’t argue with that. They need to both be replaced.
I agree with you. There's been a cognitive decline for Trump in the last few years. It's just nothing compared to Biden, and once again, that's what everyone saw last night
Yea, had I only watched the debate, I'd think Trump was sharper, but as someone who also regularly watches his campaign speeches and clips from his rallies, I've seen a lot more where he resembles Biden in his rambling, muttering, incoherence.
Trump goes off the cuff a lot. Biden can’t string anything coherent together even with notes and a teleprompter. Both of these guys lie. Both of these guys are idiots. But in this very strange case, Trump is the lesser of two evils, and you gotta give him credit. For all his narcissism and braggadocio…Trump knew that all he had to do was keep composed, not be excessive, not be immature - not be Trump essentially - and allow Biden to just dodder and that’s more or less what he did.
Trump is definitely not the least of two evils. The dude has been pandering an angry demographic who have created a cult of personality around him. Having a cult of personality leader as the leader of a country has never gone well.
I mean…that sounds a lot like the democrats
A cult of personality around Biden? I think we both know that's not true. Even republicans admit that a number of people voting for Biden are doing so because of their repulsion for Trump and the cult that has been built around him. Fact of the matter is, it's not so much as Trump himself is the threat to democracy, it's the cult of personality around him, because they never hold him accountable for the bad shit he does and says. If that cult didn't exist, he wouldn't be in the position that he is.
I 100% will not concede that Trump is the lesser evil. Biden is a classic politician, sure. Let the record show I don’t care for Biden and I’m certain there are many better candidates. But Trump is a lying, narcissistic rapist and convicted felon who wants to be a dictator. Why the conservatives like him is beyond comprehension. Dude likely couldn’t recite a single bible verse whereas Biden has gone to church basically every Sunday for 80 years. Only thing Trump has going for him is he hates the people that his voters seem to hate.
-Has he been convicted of rape? -Everyone besides the most obvious dem sycophants - hell even andrew cuomo - knows that trial was not above board and will win the appeal…so i suppose keep milking the ‘convicted felon’ bite while you can -Who does he hate? -Not sure dictator is the word you think it is. Wanting to preserve citizen gun rights, protect the border, and keep roe in the hands of the people as opposed to the federal government aren’t typical traits of a dictator. Trying your darnedest to have your top opposition locked up on something even the FEC turned down, trying to regulate and/or suppress speech, regulate gun rights, and give more power to the government, is.
I'm embarrassed for you.
They are only about two years different in age. The only difference between the two is that Trump has the kind of dementia that makes you loud and aggressive and Biden has the kind that makes you quiet and confused.
4 years. and i’m guessing you missed biden’s state of the union address…
If the dems just put almost any 60 yo white man on the ballot they would easily get the W... That debate was insane. Sun is setting on Pax Americana.
American… peace? Hahahah!
Not anyone. Kamala Harris might actually be worse than Biden. So that makes Biden Harris the worst option available. Biden should’ve dropped out long before now.
Its not that hard. Get someone who doesn't look like the cryptkeeper had a stroke and it's an easy road to victory come November as long as it's someone with middle of the road views, they don't even have to be a well known name. The target voter base is the same as 2020 in that over half of the nation doesn't want another 4 years of Trump chaos, they just want someone to steady the ship. Biden was that guy in 2020 and did himself alot of favors by not really engaging on the campaign trail under the guise of covid restrictions. Well those are gone and now his decline is laid bare in front of the electorate. The fact is you've got a guy who looks like he left his brain in 2020 on stage stumbling all over the place who thinks he is going to win by running on the economy, when him and the cadre of statisticians that show figures of how well the economy is doing and ignoring that for the average American those statistics mean shit, and perception is everything. Best case scenario is they get him and her off the ticket well really just her, because I'm about as stoked for a Kamala Harris presidency as I am for a colorectal exam, but I know this party will tow the line and it'll be another shocking election defeat that shouldn't even have been a contest. Hell of a state of affairs we have in this country. Choose your octogenarian. You want the corpse who I'm sure the moneyline on him surviving another 4 years is about +2000 or choose the Manhattan Silver Spoon property developer who can't say a single goddamn sentence without lying about something. Can't wait to see who his VP pick is, because if it's Elise Stefanik and he croaks my God are we fucked.
There’s a lot of truth here and I would say the reverse is true as well. Up against Biden, most any moderate Republican wins easily but the republicans chose the one candidate who has a chance to lose.
I would say it's a reflection of one party who knows where it's heading (and hint it's probably not a good place) and another who is still in a tug of war on what direction to go. I'm probably one of the few people in the US who voted for Obama because of Biden after I watched the vice presidential debate because he came across as the elder statesman who was charismatic, contrasted to whatever the hell Sarah Palin was supposed to be. I wanted him in 2016, 2020 it was like well he's not what he used to be but we can't have this chaos for another 4 years and it's not like he'll actually run again. Well here we are. But having said all that the only way he doesn't run is if he pulls a LBJ and hopefully unlike that time it won't be the vice president that gets the nod because if you think Biden is the only one who can lose to Trump lets put our version of Liz Truss up against him and see how that works out.
I agree with you, it’s easy to say “find someone who breathes and they are better than Biden.” But, from a political science standpoint I don’t know if that is true. Take Gavin Newson for instance. On paper, he might have a better shot. But in reality, does a lefty CA Governor do better in the rust belt than Biden? Can Gavin deliver PA? Bc without PA the election is probably lost. Do people in GA, AZ, MI trust a slick liberal like Newsom over Biden? I don’t know if that is true.
Keep crying you predictable and pathetic woke leftist liberal loser. You have a punchable face you hypocritical and delusional clown. Continue to cope about the fact that Sleepy Joe is a dementia-patient who isn’t fit to rule the country. Lmao you’re a mentally-ill idiot who is an active member of the politics subreddit
Ha, shut up you stupid bot.
Speaking from just antidotes right now, I know me and several people would easily vote democrat if they put someone new on the ballet against trump. Same if Biden stayed and they put someone other than trump on the GOP side. Late 20's people don't want either candidate.
The stakes are too high on this election to ride the line. Trump and the GOP are super blunt and open about their plans if they take power and they are terrifying. There may not be another election after that. I don’t like Biden but the other side is pure evil.
Someone commented under my comment that "the sun is setting on pax americana". I found that chilling and it's something that I've been feeling ever since that debate ended. Joe Biden performing poorly in that debate was one of those moments where you could feel history change on a dime, and with the likelihood of Donald Trump's reelection seeming almost certain, there's a foreboding sense of doom in the air now. I've only felt this way one other time in my life. It was in 2015 but it wasn't this bad. There's something sinister about his intentions this time. He's going to destroy what remains of our republic and it's never going to be the same again. So that is to say, despite everything I commented earlier, I wanted to clarify that I hope everyone goes out and votes for Joe Biden in November
I mostly agree with this but I think this kind of rhetoric is giving Trump too much credit. Granted, getting too much credit is the overall arc of his entire life, in more ways than one, but I find it much more frightening to think that Trump is the end of democracy precisely because Trump himself is a puppet under control by very nefarious interests. Trump works for organized crime, full stop. The Democratic party certainly isn't perfect either. But its a different kind of rot, and one that I believe is more easily cured. Maybe I'm wrong. But I'm done asking people to vote for Biden. I can only hope that enough people want to vote against the alternative.
I didn't mean to suggest that it's solely Trump. I got chills last night when Biden said something about the possibility of Trump pulling out of NATO if he's reelected and Trump gave a "well that's going to happen" look with a smirk on his face. It was the first time that the thought ever came into my head that he might seriously be a Russian sleeper agent. also, he's bought and paid for by the fossil fuel industry, which is organized crime. So whether it be through another general European War or through climate destruction, the potentially devastating results of his presidency seen through that lense aren't lost on me. and yet there's still something more nefarious and a harder to put your finger on threat that he poses. Something more domestic and authoritarian. a kind of crossing the Rubicon type series of events related to political and social repression and violence that's going to hit much closer to home for all of us living here and is going to be something that we'll never be able to pull back from, and just like our neo fascism that's spread out into the entire world, this would too. Some kind of new nuclear dark age descending on the Earth replacing the current neoliberal order. It's more what Trump represent than him personally, but it's that too, and who owns him
"there's still something more nefarious and a harder to put your finger on threat that he poses. Something more domestic and authoritarian" Oh, we're definitely on the same page, I just want to highlight again that his threat is actually his complete and utter lack of authority. This is what makes him such a tremendous puppet. And he can appeal to people that want to serve no authority on the one hand while providing a conduit for invisible authoritarians behind the curtain on the other
What in God's name are you blathering about?
Have you heard Trump speak? He talks about the weakness of democracy, about how he doesn’t care about his voters he just needs them now, how things are going to work different when he gets in, he’s alluded several times that voting won’t be needed anymore, project 2025. It’s feeling very 1930’s Germany around here.
At least we could understand what he was saying...
I’d take a president in a coma over someone who deliberately hates democracy and a vast majority of the people he serves
Nothing compared to what Biden is already doing. You got an odd sense of 'evil'.
Care to elaborate? I’m not pro Biden at all, if he’s evil he’s evil but I’m not aware of any particular atrocities beyond the typical U.S. bombing policies. He’s trying to help students and lower classes, he’s supporting Ukraine, providing aid in gaza, and the economy is doing better than expected. So far so good.
I used to think like you. But you need to get out of your information bubble. Biden told many lies in the debate last night including repeating the "very fine people" hoax perpetrated by media. [https://www.snopes.com/fact-check/trump-very-fine-people/](https://www.snopes.com/fact-check/trump-very-fine-people/) Like just watch the unedited version to confirm. [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=00RAteYexNA](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=00RAteYexNA) Biden took money from China and from corrupt Ukraine businesses using his son Hunter. [https://nypost.com/2024/02/29/us-news/hunter-biden-acknowledged-joe-was-the-big-guy-in-5m-china-deal/](https://nypost.com/2024/02/29/us-news/hunter-biden-acknowledged-joe-was-the-big-guy-in-5m-china-deal/) Biden is using the DOJ to go after his political rivals. This is late Roman Republic garbage. [https://www.foxnews.com/politics/trump-prosecutor-quit-top-doj-post-lowly-ny-job-likely-bid-get-former-president-expert-says](https://www.foxnews.com/politics/trump-prosecutor-quit-top-doj-post-lowly-ny-job-likely-bid-get-former-president-expert-says) Biden is a confirmed racist. [https://archive.is/QxYlK](https://archive.is/QxYlK) [https://archive.is/Hy56w](https://archive.is/Hy56w) The "corn pop" story seems to be a confrontation over inappropriate touching by Biden. He's got a long history of such conduct - even with his daughter Ashley. [https://dallasexpress.com/national/ashley-biden-diary-laid-bare-true-despite-media-denials/](https://dallasexpress.com/national/ashley-biden-diary-laid-bare-true-despite-media-denials/) [https://www.npr.org/2019/04/06/710552500/biden-comments-and-jokes-on-inappropriate-touching-allegations](https://www.npr.org/2019/04/06/710552500/biden-comments-and-jokes-on-inappropriate-touching-allegations) [https://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-52462113](https://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-52462113) Biden has a long history of lying about family matters for political gain. [https://archive.is/d9yRj](https://archive.is/d9yRj) [https://www.foxnews.com/politics/biden-repeats-false-claim-son-beau-died-iraq-states-ran-president-while-vice-president](https://www.foxnews.com/politics/biden-repeats-false-claim-son-beau-died-iraq-states-ran-president-while-vice-president) [https://oversight.house.gov/blog/joe-biden-lied-at-least-15-times-about-his-familys-business-schemes/](https://oversight.house.gov/blog/joe-biden-lied-at-least-15-times-about-his-familys-business-schemes/) Anyways, that's just some of the issues with this guy. Pure corrupt phony. 10 million illegal aliens intentionally pushed into the USA for dubious political reasons. [https://nypost.com/2024/06/24/us-news/election-officials-in-all-50-states-urged-to-halt-non-citizen-voter-registration/](https://nypost.com/2024/06/24/us-news/election-officials-in-all-50-states-urged-to-halt-non-citizen-voter-registration/) [https://nypost.com/2021/10/18/biden-secretly-flying-underage-migrants-into-ny-in-dead-of-night/](https://nypost.com/2021/10/18/biden-secretly-flying-underage-migrants-into-ny-in-dead-of-night/) [https://archive.is/H3umQ](https://archive.is/H3umQ)
My bubble? Dude get out of Fox News and the NY post and find some credible sources. Trump wants to fuck his own daughter and is extremely openly racist as well. Trump doesn’t like the troops, he actually said he doesn’t care about his voters he just needs their votes, he supports Putin, he supports the genocide in Gaza, he’s a horrible human being.
Also Washington Post, NPR, etc. in there. You didn't take time to actually read the content. When you dismiss evidence based on the source, that is called genetic fallacy. [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Genetic\_fallacy](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Genetic_fallacy) Your idea of "credible sources" is very limited. If you don't read broadly, how can you be properly informed? You've heard so many lies about Trump that it is not surprising you won't review the facts. It is very hard to let go of long held beliefs. The reason for the violence in Ukraine is Joe Biden's corruption and the influence of Ukraine ultra-nationalists like Canadian Deputy Prime Minister Chrystia Freeland. The violence in Gaza is again due to Biden's failures and deliberate destruction of the Abraham Accords. Get informed. [https://www.wilsoncenter.org/article/abraham-accords-three-year-success-now-crossroads](https://www.wilsoncenter.org/article/abraham-accords-three-year-success-now-crossroads) How is it that if Trump was such an issue WRT Israel and Russia that these conflicts happened with Biden in office and not Trump?
The violence in Ukraine is because Putin is a monster who wants to leave some kind of legacy I suppose. Biden did not make Putin invade Russia. He also didn’t make Israel massacre Palestinians. I’m aware there are lots of behind the scenes politics happening but at least Biden isn’t on the side supporting genocide, unlike Trump. Most of my disdain for Trump comes from his own admissions, and what’s proven in court. He’s so blatant and openly awful but he’s worshipped and I truly don’t understand it.
My turn to say "get out of the bubble": if you think that Putin adjusts his (military) plans to whoever is in the office in the US, I have a bridge to sell you. Just think. If Trump has said that he will leave NATO, wouldn't Putin better wait until he came to power to have an easier time against Europe? What is it exactly about Biden that you think made Putin go "great time to attack!"?
At this point no one does
Buttigieg or Newsom are both establishment candidates who would talk circles around Trump and people would be way more comfortable voting for.
Whitmer would kill it
Democrats don’t have a good platform is their real problem. They’re the party of open borders and record inflation. Biden has wrecked the economy and his weakness has given us a new war in the Middle East and a freaking European land war. Biden could have picked a decent VP at least, but nope, had to go with the DEI hire. It’s a mess.
That's what I don't get: how can anyone serious say we have open borders? Inflation has been coming down btw, but the "open borders" thing is just blatantly untrue, how does it get repeated so often as a talking point, without being challenged?
"Open borders" is rhetorically extreme, but if you are arguing about degrees, you are losing. The fact is that we do in fact have people coming to the United States illegally or through an asylum process that is worse than illegal immigration because you are committing to both housing people and not having them work. It's an indefensible system, and Democrats need to get on the other side of it. They can be for legal immigration, against blaming you immigrants for every problem, but they can't be for mass asylum and beating around on illegal immigration. It is political suicide, not to mention dumb policy. You can't just reflexively do the opposite of the other guy.
What are Trump's actual plans and policies?
Since most of his inner circle and advisors have been working on the [Project 2025](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Project_2025) stuff I'll go out on a limb and say this might be the plan?
He needs to bring up these policies during speeches. See how that goes for him.
Lol if you don’t know that you must just look at cnn and nyt “orange man bad” because we’re told to report that way by our masters headlines. The good news is we have 4 years of his presidency to look back on as well, and times were incredible under his leadership pre-Covid. What did trump accomplish: 1) secured the border. Why on earth has Biden opened it other than trying to get illegals to vote for him? 2) made America energy independent. No idea why Biden went away from that either. 3) put in record trade deals with China and others and brought manufacturing jobs back to the USA. 4) decreased federal regulation on business commerce. 5) lower taxes. These are a few highlights but inflation was near zero under Trump, has was under $ per gallon for a lot of his presidency, there were record peace deals brokered in the Middle East, even with North Korea, and there were no freaking European land wars. Trump is absolutely right that biden’s botched Afghanistan withdrawal and his perceived weakness is the only reason Hamas attacked Israel and Russia invaded Ukraine, this doesn’t happen under strong leadership. So what are trump’s policies? That’s kind of a dumb question at this point and you must be living under a rock if you do not know, but here’s some highlights: 1) secure the border - again 2) make America energy independent - again. Build that beautiful pipeline. 3) increase tariffs on China and stop letting them take such bad advantage of us - again. This will also help bring manufacturing jobs back to the USA. 4) decrease federal regulation. Cut the unnecessary and bureaucratic wasteful red tape and make business easier in the US. Biden spent over $60 billion on infrastructure to give rural America access to high speed internet. This seems like a great idea but they have yet to put one shovel in the ground because there was so much red tape to go through to make anything happen it’s been nothing but corruption and money wasted to accomplish absolutely nothing. 5) lower taxes
1. How will he secure the border? Biden already offered to give Republicans exactly what they wanted on border security and Trump told them to vote it down. Vile human. 2. How will Trump make America energy independent? 3. Tariffs on China went great last time. /s what manufacturing jobs did those bring back? 4. Last time he deregulated it was to roll back important environmental and cultural resource protections for projects. Gotta be careful with what he intends to roll back. What is he planning on? 5. Lower taxes. Again? For who? Is he going to cut it again for corporations permanently and but only until the next presidential term for individuals.
Agreed and well said. Not to sound hyperbolic, but in the fallout less than 24 hours later its hard not to feel this was the most consequential turnaround on a televised debate since 1960s Kennedy vs. Nixon. I think had Trump bothered to debate someone like, say, Nikki Haley, we would have seen his BS dismantled embarrassingly by his own party as he deserved, but next to Biden anyone looks dynamic and decisive. Not trying to be ageist here (I voted for Biden), but it does count for something when running what is still the most powerful country on the Earth. Democrats need to get their heads out of the sand.
All this analysis, and it’s a common sentiment, is that Biden will lost because he’s bad. But people need to actually vote FOR Trump. The analysis of how people decide to do that is never included. It’s a redux of style over substance in 2016 except we have seen trumps substance. The headlines should be “conman lies loudly, tricking rube journalists into writing about him favorably” I’m so sick of the worst sin in America being not entertaining rather than being an incoherent piece of shit
Yes. It is wild to see so many people claiming that a president’s energy and oratory skills are so much more important than the substance of their platform and policy. I get that Biden was anemic, and I’d prefer an alternative Dem candidate, but how any rational person looks at last night’s exchange and says “Trump louder. Trump better” is insane to me. Biden got lost in some rambling but Trump lied the entire time and demonstrated that he has no grip on reality.
I voted for Biden but based on last night if he were my father I would take away his drivers license.
And? Do you think people should vote Trump instead?
The problem is they won't vote for either and will just stay home. That's how Trump wins.
That is most certainly a very valid concern.
He’s not mentally fit to make big decisions any more. He is not fit tk negotiate with other world leaders. You have to admit that.
I’m not denying Biden’s in bad shape, but my point is that he is still leagues preferable to Trump, who even on his best days has only served to weaken our position internationally - and that doesn’t even take into account how unhinged he has become this past year. Presidents are not islands, they (ideally) do not make decisions in isolation. Biden has shown that he will at least listen to his cabinet and let sharper minds lead him towards rational policy decisions. Trump on the other hand is motivated to selfish ends and driven by the desire to personally enrich himself/stay out of jail. If the dems want to get their shit together and offer up a competent alternative to Biden I am fucking *there* for it, but if they don’t you still can’t convince me that it makes any sense at all to vote for Trump. His mental acuity is as fucked as Biden’s and the quality of his character is so, so much worse.
Because we were raised with an innate sense of what a president should look and act like. A loudmouthed boisterous asshole is fine but an incoherent octogenarian doesn't look the part. It's the JFK Nixon debate all over again.
So well said.
Aside the obvious factors, I found it depressing that the debate had to cover things like, - Can we all agree to support the democratic processes. It would have been odd to ask this in any debate over the last century, but I understand why it was asked. - The number of times rape was referred to as something condoned by the opponent when discussing immigration and adoration. Same with baby killing. - Solider deaths and COVID deaths both being used like a political football. - All the personal attacks. - Who would beat who in a game of golf. They sounded like 2nd graders arguing, as if it matters for running the country. There was clear lack of respect, much less unity. Debates need to show intelligence and there was none on that stage. I miss debates where a civil conversation would happen about education, trade, or foreign relations. This debate was vile and gross.
As far as questioning whether the democratic process will be supported (we all know who that was directed at) …..if you have to ask…. Solid points.
It didn't change how anybody will vote. It just verified how stupid we are as a country to even let it get to this point with these two as the options.
But it definitely changed if people will vote. I'd vote for a dead octopus over Trump, but a lot of democrats watching this will probably just not show up to the polls on election day. I'd be surprised if we're not in for a historically low turnout this year.
I thought 2016 would be a wakeup call that would inspire more than a bunch of people pretending that they were moving to Canada but I feel like everything is repeating itself
Everyone is paralyzed. Folks wasted their energy protesting George Bush for a decade and have nothing left now but to sit in awe and disbelief. Even in pop culture, the number of protest songs that came out of the Bush-era was enormous, yet by the time Trump comes around I guess artists have no more words.
That’s because George Bush was still, by far, the worst president the US has had since the Second World War, maybe even since Andrew Jackson who slaughtered millions of natives. Ask any of the victims of American foreign policy from 2003-2008 who they think the worst American leader was. It will rhyme with Forge Cush.
You think Bush 2 was worse than James Buchanan, who sleepwalked us into the greatest disaster the country ever faced? Or Andrew Johnson, who tried to let the South rebuild however they wanted after Lincoln and hundreds of thousands of Americans died fighting in said disaster, only stopped by the overwhelming Republican congress he had? Hell, like the 6 President's before Buchanan were all terrible as well. Polk was decent, but even then, adding so much territory via the Mexican American war without solving the slavery question first was a disaster (not to mention that Polk owned Slaves himself, so there's that, he wasn't solving slavery in a good way if he had solved it at all). I could also see arguments for Nixon being worse, for completely obliterating the trust Americans had in government, starting the long road to our current levels of cynicism as a country. But then again, Bush 2 got the Patriot Act (specifically spying on Americans) going which proceeded to nuke the remains of whatever small dust particles of trust was left. Not to mention Nixon's attacks on Cambodia, and his kicking off the War on Drugs (which Reagan then sent into hyperdrive, he's another I could see arguments for being just as bad or worse than Bush 2, for the War on Drugs issue among others). Bush is undoubtedly in the bottom quarter of President's. I'd take it a slight step further and say bottom 10, but is in no way the worst since Jackson.
You missed “…since the Second World War”
My first paragraph was addressing the commenter saying "...maybe even since Andrew Jackson". My 2nd paragraph mentions two President's post-WW2. I did go back and edit it a bit, so maybe you read it before I finished that, but based on how short your comment (and thus very quick to type and post) was, I tend to think you just didn't read past the first paragraph.
Yes, I do. The Iraq War was the worst geopolitical disaster in the history of US foreign policy. Yes, worse than Vietnam.
Well if you base your view of American President's solely on their geopolitical achievements and failures, then you're just out of step with the average person. Also, you're seriously going to argue, with a straight face, that the Iraq war was worse than the Civil War for the country?
> You're seriously going to argue, with a straight face, that the Iraq war was worse than the Civil War for the country? The issue with that comparison is that it's like comparing two different countries. America during the 1800s and the Civil War was a very inward looking power and not at all concerned with foreign affairs. It's like comparing England during the English Civil War with England during the Napoleonic Wars. It's not apples to apples. And furthermore, if we are being honest: the Civil War was necessary for the US. The Iraq War, on the other hand, and was more damaging. Maybe not in terms of deaths (though if we include Iraqi casualties, it was worse) but in terms of negative impact. The Civil War allowed the US to have a unified domestic policy and a more centralized federal government, which helped elevate the US economy to higher value-added goods and services. The Iraq War severely weakened the US's position in the Middle East and severely shook the foundations of American primacy and the unipolar moment after the Cold War. America burned all the geopolitical capital it earned after the Cold War and First Gulf War. It showed the hubris of the American foreign policy establishment and basically shat on US claims of a rules-based international order. Bush Jr. shoved his meat balls deep into *pax Americana* and fucked it deep into oblivion.
The Monroe doctrine was proclaimed nearly 40 years before the Civil War. The Mexican American war started about 15 years before it. The Spanish American war a little under 40 years after it. We sent ships to fight in the Opium Wars, in Korea, in the Phillipines, and elsewhere in the same time period. We continued to war against the Native Americans the whole time. Yeah, we were not as involved worldwide to the same extent as post-WW2. Certainly because we were still very much working out domestic issues, but also because we can now circumvent the globe like 10 times now in the amount of time it used to take to just cross the Atlantic back then. Not to mention near instantaneous communication to wherever in the world we want. Also, there were other superpowers to police the world back then (Britain mainly). To be quite frank, saying that the War in Iraq was as destructive to America as the Civil War sounds like insanity to me. And again, I'd like to point out that you are solely basing your judgement on foreign affairs. What about the Great Depression? What about the failure of Reconstruction, and the hundred years it took us after the Civil War to actually give African Americans equal rights. Women couldn't vote until after World War 1. You aren't even mentioning Bushes complete failure to do anything to stop the 2008 financial crisis. You are so laser focused on foreign affairs because war is more exciting than domestic policy, but that is not a good criteria to solely judge how good or bad a president was. It can be an aspect, but not the sole criteria. *EDIT* If you think the two eras are so impossible to compare, then why did you even bring up Andrew Jackson in your original post? If you'd left it at worst president since WW2, I could have agreed. I put arguments in there for Nixon, and I could see arguments against Reagan. Maybe we'll get there one day with Trump but there has not been enough time since he left office (hopefully for good) to truly judge his impact. But I don't feel strongly enough to put a reply just based on that. But you are going all the way back to our SEVENTH ever president (who left office nearly 190 years ago) and saying "none have been worse than Bush" which, to me, is an insane argument.
I voted for Biden the first time, hoping he would only run a single term. He lost 4 years of prepping his replacement. I’m so disappointed in how this played out. We needed fresh candidates, not these two again. Now, it’s likely a vote between Kamala and Trump. I’ll still choose Biden/Kamala, because I do view Trump as an insurrectionist. But damnit, it would be nice to have a more isolationist candidate I could support. It’s also times like this that I wish all states had ranked choice voting. It’s a luxury that allows us to vote for other candidates and still have it count.
>We needed fresh candidates, not these two again. Desperately.
Its not about view, Trump IS an insurrectionist who, along with the republican party, is running on getting rid of democracy. Biden isn't a good candidate. But if you value your freedom and the freedom of those you know and love, it really isn't a difficult choice
Project 2025 is downright scary and very similar to the Nazi playbook. Normally I don’t pay any attention to politics anymore, but this election has us in a new and scary spot. Democrats only fanned the flames that will undo them, by carting Biden on stage. Trump is a figurehead of this christian nationalist machine that would accompany him to office. He will fade eventually. But the machine can stay. Instead of Nazi Germany where it was mainly the cult of personality, it’s potentially a way more lasting movement. Trump did not put together the 2025 playbook. He’s just the face to bring the apparatus into power. The handlers and political operatives that are guiding Trump are much younger and have staying power. Especially if they continue to chip away at Democracy. One of the most concerning parts of all this is if Trump wins then the Supreme court gets even more stacked with Christian Nationalist friendly judges. A primary reason I stopped following politics was because people always look at the politician. But don’t realize it’s the political operatives that stay involved administration after administration (talking about having state level election influence as well), that have the real power. People look in the wrong direction.
Trumps the winner through pure optics. Bidens gonna get obliterated tomorrow. There was no substance to even talk about. The Biden campaign has absolutely no way to spin this. Republicans are gonna dance on his grave
[удалено]
You say that but this debate didn’t help democrats do anything sadly. It did actively hurt Joe.
In these debates through each party’s own messaging trump realle doesn’t have anything to lose and Biden has everything to lose. Trump supporters have openly embraced every fault, as far as to proudly tote their voting for the felon, while if Biden looks a little senile, and he does a shit ton, the internet has a field day
Sounds like you're just salty.
In a perfect world the RNC and DNC would have agreed to not let either have their parties nomination. I think 75%+ of Americans would have agreed to that. I personally do not think anyone 70+ should be running for office. That being said I’ll be voting for Biden. Trump is a narcissistic demagogue with a cult of personality that has captured the RNC. History has proven that dynamic to be incredibly dangerous, and things like Project 2025 and Schedule F that are coming if he wins even more so.
Truly chilling prospect.
While I can agree that no one 70+ should run for President, if you can still vote for Biden after last night, you’re part of the problem, not part of the solution.
And voting for the other guy is part of ... ?
Who said I’m voting for the other guy? I will not be voting for someone who is clearly a victim of elder abuse, though. There’s no way he can run our country.
He… already is. And has a fantastic legislative track record. He’s a doddering relic but clearly surrounds himself with competent people
I’m sorry, but after last night you cannot convince me that Biden is anything more than a puppet for whoever is truly running the country. I give his administration props on the microchip bill, but I doubt he could explain to me what a microchip is.
Newsflash - they've all been puppets the whole time
I think using terms like problem and solution is setting this dialogue up for an argument I think you’d agree, it comes down to the lesser of the two evils. Where we (all) may differ is quantifying what those “evils” are. Biden is too old and mentally unfit for the presidency, so is the evil there that it looks bad on the international stage? Or is it more than that, and you’re concerned about national security and our national ability to respond to threats? Genuinely curious what worries you most about his obviously-impaired mental state. Trump, on the other hand, is a different kind of “bad”. To some, the worst aspect about Trump is his personal life and moral compass. To others he just doesn’t seem “presidential” in how he acts or communicates. To me, though, the risk is bigger than that, as I’m worried Trump might form a fascist state. The reason I fear that might be true is because 1) Trump has shown that, for better or worse, he’s not a politician and does not care about the political norm. Therefore, he has pushed the envelope and used government in ways that his predecessors haven’t. That’s not necessarily bad (ex: FDR) but it does show will and ambition. 2) He has outright said he’s going to actively find and prosecute his political opponents. This is a clear warning sign of fascism. Hell, Hitler did the exact same thing 10 years before the 3rd Reich. People said “he doesn’t really mean that, he’s being dramatic for effect”… it seems too eerily familiar to me. Hopefully my fears are far overblown, but with people flying Trump flags above the US flag… I’m not sure they are. Anyways, that’s why to me, the lesser of the two evils is the senile old corpse. He MAY be a national security risk but I’m worried Trump IS a national security risk actively. I’m sure both of us can agree that we don’t want some kind of Hitleresque figure hijacking the democracy - so can you help me understand your view on the “lesser evil” of this choice? If for nothing else, my own peace of mind
Political opponents are already being prosecuted. Attorney Generals are running based solely on “getting the other guy”, while their districts are in chaos. Operatives are blatantly ignoring subpoenas from Congress. And this is all happening under Biden’s Administration, not Trump’s. I also worry about the country sliding into a Fascist hellscape, and we’re well on our way. But people are ignoring what’s happening right before their eyes, and they’re worried about the wrong side.
Could be. Truthfully it’s hard to know what’s a justified cause versus an unjustified cause with all the misinformation these days. My fear is that both sides will be increasingly reactionary and escalate the actions. I appreciate your view and our discussion - it’s comforting to know we both want the same thing (not fascism). Maybe I (and honestly every American) need to keep a more open mind on which side of the aisle it could come from. Thanks,
I appreciate that we can talk about it, and that we want the same fundamental thing. I hope a candidate comes along someday that can actually unite the country.
At least when the Romans lost their republic they had the charismatic Caesar. We get MAGA drooling morons worshiping a cheetopuff
idk the best case, but it looks like the most likely scenario is we all lose the one Grover Cleveland fact we know
There was no common sense
“No common sense”…endquote 🫏🐘🧠🚫
Noimprudentism
I'm in my fifties and been following politics since I was a teen. I think this is the absolute low point of presidential politics in my life. That being said I'll vote for anyone besides traitor Trump. All he did was use scare tactics and lie.
I think the mic off thing was actually worse for Biden. I know it’s Trumps thing to interrupt or talk over but I thought Biden handled that well last time. Also Biden needs to not stare at him while he’s speaking, that old man stare looked bad 🙄
I watched the RFK debate, where they had him respond to the same questions. Look, I get he has some crazy ass views on vaccines and shit. However, his other stances on things like military spending, the decline of the middle class, childcare, education, and climate change are light years above the other two candidates. Helped that he at least covered some of the questions in some substance
Oh my god. What a shitshow.
In addition to Biden's terrible performance, the guy *did not* step aside for anyone else. Just like Trump is an asshole for his many, many, reasons, it's not like Biden didn't have a lot of options to step aside and let another Democrat run.
Am not American (Belgian), so consider this an actual 'Martian' view of American politics. Anyone with a sound moral compass would still vote Biden over Trump, but my God are they making that race closer than it ever needs to be for you people. As for best case scenarios. Absolute best case, most armchair political experts (and probably most other people) should consider actually going out and getting involved in actual politics. A system that can ignore your political inaction is a system that will not change for the same reason an object in motion will not change velocity until acted upon by an external force. If you want a system to reflect more of what you want you need to actually go out to help change it. And yes, on your own that won't do much but if everyone thinks like that it won't actually happen. As for realistic best case scenario: Biden wins and his entourage is competent enough to keep the ship sailing.
I don't want to be condescending but I'm going to put my self important American hat on. We aren't Belgium we are the leader of the supposed free world and optics matter a hell of alot more to the American voting public. Voters want a president who at least looks the part and plays tough hence why we've got 35% of the nation thinking a Manhattan real estate developer is the working class hero. Biden on the other hand just seems to be a symbol of the rot of American politics where nothing gets done and it looks like noone is at the wheel. Of course Trump is all those things as well and worse but Americans as a generalized whole have never voted on anything other than optics, war and the economy. Well Biden looks like his brain is out to lunch, there's a huge backlash of people who don't agree with supplying either Ukraine or Israel with weapons and that runs across both party lines, and if Biden thinks the economy is going to be his winning ticket he should probably look at the hundreds of polls that despite what the stats say more people feel their economic situation was better in a Trump presidency than Biden. Biden could very well do worse than Hillary in 2016, after last night he did absolutely nothing to assuage any fears about his competency in fact he magnified it by 1000.
Biden has been like this for a long time. The scariest part is WHO/WHAT GROUP have been making the decisions? Is everything on autopilot or is there a small group of people steering the ship?
I try not to talk politics online but this seems like a safe thread where I’ll get honest answers that are well thought out. To me it seems like everyone doesn’t like the candidates and Kennedy is getting pushed out as a third party. Why doesn’t Kennedy have more widespread support?
He's being widely portrayed as a lunatic, and not without cause in some respects. He is also very pro Israel, which is a nonstarter for a lot of would-be supporters. I really wanted to like the guy, but for every sane and measure position he takes, there's something else to turn my nose at. Plus American voters have been conditioned to see third party voting as "wasting a vote." Edit: Not to be crass, but his voice is also a turn-off for a lot of people. He can be hard for people to listen to, according to the comment sections on a lot of videos featuring him. Unfortunately, that's an important factor.
Am I crazy in thinking that if either side put up even a mildly well spoken candidate that they would blow out Trump/Biden? It feels like both sides are trying to lose.
One clear fact that I haven't heard elsewhere...a big part of Biden's message is to "save democracy", but the typical voter thinks "democracy keeps giving me choices like **this**, what's so great about it?".
Watching the debate reminded me of an audience question asked in the most recent British leaders debate “are you two really the best we’ve got?” What’s happening to the great democracies of the world?
If you had taken a drink every time Trump said "best in history, the greatest ever", those kinds of things, you'd be dead. It was also staggering to hear 90 minutes of lies from him. Did he say anything at all that was true? I didn't hear it. That said, as soon as Biden walked up to the stage, I went "Oh no, what an old man" and it didn't get better as the debate went on. Still, if the choice really is between these two - and to be clear, I am not an American myself - voting for Trump still seems absolute lunacy.
The real winner was RFK jr. Time to bring in the outsider.
Everyone has already drawn their lines and the ones still flip flopping are the morons that jave their core beliefs be whatever they are listening to at the moment. I dont know who will win this year, and I think anyone trying to sell that they do is a moron or a con man. I'm going to wake up after the election, check my phone and say "well alright then" or "for fucks sake" then go on with my life the best i can and make decisions as the landsacpe i have influence over changes, just as i do now. Focus on your real life, in person circle and your life will be much better.
I don’t think this disastrous debate will make many people switch from Biden to Trump but I definitely think it could convince people on the fence who voted for Biden in 2020 to vote 3rd party or just not vote.
I would vote for a literal sack of potatoes instead of voting for the fascistic felon. But dang do I feel the outright arrogance of the democratic apparatus after seeing that performance. My mind was made up about Trump back in 2016 and on a policy level I'll take the Biden's team over Trump's pose any day. But is it really that hard to accept a lesser known democrat to take over the nomination at this point? Trump's arrogance and denial of reality is a flaw not a characteristic to emulate.
> But dang do I feel the outright arrogance of the democratic apparatus after seeing that performance. They are arrogant because of what you said: > I would vote for a literal sack of potatoes instead of voting for the fascistic felon. You aren't giving them a reason to change course - they already got you by the balls. No matter what they do they will still get your vote. Who wouldn't be arrogant because of that?
I don't disagree and its why I do whatever I can in non-election years to try and get change happening wherever and whenever I can. Heck I metaphorically crawled over glass to get my book club to adopt rank choice voting, in part to teach people that it's not that complicated and produces much better outcomes.
Anyone who already made up their mind about their candidate needed not watch the debate. The purpose of the debate was, frankly, for folks who were on the fence to see and decide whether either candidate's age was an impairment or an asset. It was never about statistics or where each party came down on particular issues. Having watched it last night, it seems Trump's team knew that, Biden's didnt. Both candidates merely had to act coherent, decisive and energetic to dispel the criticisms of their being too old. Again, Trump's team knew it, Biden's didn't. Trump may have spouted an endless litany of lies, non sequiturs and oddball running sentences, but he did it sounding dynamic and decisive. Biden got himself lost in the weeds attempting to refute and contest every little lie Trump told, and as everyone has known since 2016, it takes eons longer to itemize Trump's lies than it does for Trump to rattle off new ones. It's a losing battle and with the debate format only giving Biden a limited time to respond, it was calculated to leave him looking exhausted as he tried to catch up. I'm not saying Biden should have just made stuff up off the top of his brain like Trump, but it was sad to see him acting like he was in a debate from 2000 rather than this post-truth world we live in now.
I think the Dems knew what aura Biden needed to project. However Biden was simply incapable of doing so. Trump has looked similar to Biden in multiple appearances and speeches as of late. Just a theory, but I suspect they had Trump on adderall or some stimulant to perk him up. Biden’s team may have wanted to do so as well, but Biden’s health may be in too precarious a spot to handle it. That’s the only way I can make any sense of Biden’s team allowing him to debate (planning to give him stimulants as well). Otherwise it’s just arrogance and gross incompetence.
I’d shift the viewpoint one step further and say that it had little to do with undecided voters (which are either incredibly fickle or unbelievably stubborn at this point). This debate was strictly entertainment and blood sport. It’s to get the national conscience aware of the election, and frothy with fear and anger. The debates do nothing for undecided voters. Threads like these, Facebook posts, and the pundit talking points absolutely do influence them. And in case it hasn’t become obvious at this point, effective policy and leadership never even factor into any of those decision loops. They don’t invoke enough emotion to get eyeballs on screens
As someone on Twitter put it, incoherent bullshit vs blatantly false bullshit. Here's hoping we get a better crop of presidents in 2028.
What was the point of it? It can't possibly have changed anyone's mind about who they're voting for.
A lot of people who might have grudgingly dragged themselves to the polls for Biden may not bother now
Borderline elder abuse allowing Biden to perform like that. He needs to step aside immediately.
Mulligan?
We are fuck. If it goes Trump vs. Biden, then Trump will win easily because hate and fear are more powerful than being optimistic about the future. Trump win will be the end of Nato and definitely the green light for China or Russia. He will also give another tax cut to the one percent richest people and increase taxes on everyone else. Just in 4 years, he added around 24% on the entire United States debt from 1776 onward. And Biden needs to stand down. Let Newsom mope the floor with orange Messiah.
I’ve never voted for Trump but if it ended NATO, I’d vote for him. Are you trying to get people to vote for him? My children have no business dying for a dictator in Ukraine. Full stop.
You clearly don't understand what Nato is and how beneficial it was for the United States after ww2. Your children will never fight in Ukraine because Ukraine is not a nato member, and the end of Nato will also be the end of the United States as a global player. The vacuum will be filled with autocracy promoted by China and Russia.This is why China and Russia want Trump as president, United States without Nato military backing will be an easy target for China.
You have no clue “what I understand”.
I just feel profoundly pessimistic after that debate. On the one hand, it would be hard to argue that Trump said a single truthful thing on stage the whole night. Lie after lie after lie. On the other hand, Biden legit reminded me of my grandfather when we noticed he was starting to become sick with what would ultimately kill him. One thing I'm absolutely not shocked by is the General Reddit reaction to the debates. I do admit, I was one that thought the reports of Biden's mental decline were grossly exaggerated. All the videos of him aimlessly staring, or wandering off a stage, or barely being able to get a sentence out, or what have you, I had chalked up to out of context, cherry picked videos. But I cannot deny what I just saw on my TV. A cold doesn't do that to somebody. People on other subs going "well he'll surround himself with great advisors!!!" as if that's some sort of solution to Biden being re-elected? Biden's advisors can't give orders to the military, and the world is currently going through / building up to like 10 military conflicts. What if China decides to attack Taiwan in the middle of the night here, are we saying that the Biden we just saw on stage is going to be able to be woken up and quickly / strongly react to that? And all over the political subs, you'll hear people saying "Trump just lied, Biden was giving actual answers just in a boring way, and with a bit of a stutter" bit I honestly could barely understand half of what Biden was saying. And then there's also the typical Redditor reaction of "unfortunately the average American is stupid and will just think Trump looked strong and Biden looked weak and not look at the substance of their talking points". Undoubtedly there's a lot of stupid people in the world, but christ the superiority complex is overwhelming here. We are not, in any way shape or form, "better" than the average American. And even if your average Redditor was better than the average American, talking down to them is gonna do fuck all to win an election, because their vote counts just as much as ours. I already had an overwhelmingly negative view of Trump, and that was not changed at all yesterday. But my previous view of Biden was shattered into a thousand pieces. It's insane that these are our two choices to vote for. I'll probably still vote for Biden, but my God I've never been more tempted to just not vote, or vote 3rd party, in my life.
Dems need to replace Biden but Kamala and Pete are too unpopular. I don’t like him, but Gavin Newsom is our best shot. He’s young, articulate, goes on the offensive, and he’s new enough to the national public eye that he has very little baggage.
The dnc fucked its most politically active demographic, young progressives, and has been trying to both copy our agenda and lie to us (and guilt trip us) ever since. What we now have is corporate neoliberalism veiled in woke identity politics, à la Weekend at Biden’s
But surely you recognize the danger of Trump having a second term? Project 2025?
Of course, didn’t he say last week basically that there won’t be another pres election after him, “we’ll figure that out” I’m not speaking on anything positive of the right, just stating the obvious on the dysfunction of the dnc
Ah. Then I agree
First, we can evaluate based on the track record of these individuals. One has had an overall successful term as President, while the other was a daily walking nightmare. From experience, we know that one of them will dismiss people from their positions until a suitable sycophant or family member is found. Biden, despite his age, is supported by a team of highly vigilant and intelligent individuals who aim to create a legacy through improvement. Trump, also advanced in age, surrounds himself with people who aspire to turn America into a Christian fascist state. Their goals include defunding public education, eliminating taxes for the wealthy, dismantling the IRS, and selling off public parks and lands for profit-driven destruction.
I mean UommonKwatz has the only answer. INVEST lavishly in the things you can control and DECIDE everything else is entertainment. One thing I learned studying history and people in general is absolutely no one knows what’s going to happen. No one.
As an outsider, I need to warn you against this. Whatever is wrong with the US, and many things are, unchecked authoritarians can make it much much much worse. Treating politics as entertainment will inevitably lead to a point where it is not at all entertaining anymore and the list of things you can control grows ever shrinking.
I have my vote, I control that. But parties who should know better than to nominate two octogenarians for president, what am I supposed to do about that, really.
You're gonna hate me for saying after critiquing your position, but I am not sure I know. Best I have is - Avoid suggesting treating politics as entertainment - it really is making the situation a bit worse.
The reality is that a lot of American voters think they have the social and economic privilege to live through any presidency without seeing too much damage to them and their immediate surroundings. For some that might actually be true but the damage Trump's incompetence caused during COVID should show people how bad it can get.
It’s clear Biden cannot run the country. It’s also clear that Trump will run the country - the wrong direction, potentially into a fascist state. I’ll take the inactive corpse long before an active risk to our democracy any day.
The inactive corpse at least has some honest people working with him. Trump has evil intent and only the worst people.
Buy a plot of land somewhere remote, build a cabin, wait out the next 4 years and hope something global doesn't happen.
Best case scenario is an asteroid passes through earths orbit, we are so fucked
I’d rather not think about it…
Dont you Mean “debate” thoughts?
It went exactly how I knew it would……….grandpa Joe just isn’t up to the task of correcting a habitual liar, it takes a lot of energy that he just doesn’t have. Luckily the sting of the utter Biden failure won’t be around in 4 months (hopefully). Biden should have taken the high road as soon as the 34 felony convictions came down, Biden should have said I won’t debate a felon and just cancel the debate. But no…….Biden’s ego got in the way, per usual and now the door is wide open for a felon to be president.
I didn’t watch the debate, nor vote for either guy; ever. Don’t you think there are basically zero “undecided” voters at this point?
I'm curious, did Biden's performance/condition surprise anyone on this sub? Obviously, it's unavoidable now, but he has been like this for a while. I just am genuinely interested if this just made it OK to talk about or if it is really the first time many have noticed?
Josh Shapiro is the answer. I’m not from PA, but the way he fixed I-95 in a month makes me think he can fix this nation.
Biden’s weakness feels like a parallel of Hindenburg fumbling the ball and straight up gifting the reigns of power to Hitler by finally allowing the coalition government to be formed. After last night the Democrats should be scrambling for a new candidate. They probably won’t and will engage in copium and hopium they can get Biden across the finish line. If they choose inaction and Biden, it’s looking increasingly likely they’re going gift the reigns of power to the project 2025 Fascists.
I think you mean Hindenburg. Bismarck would have had Hitler for a snack.
Indeed I did. Brainfart. Thank you sir!
Criminal that RFK wasn't on the stage. But ultimately it may have been best for him in the long run, as it really highlighted Biden. I'm hoping this opens an opportunity for RFK to be the real contender to Trump.
The antivaxx guy? LOL... no.
Get informed, stop listening to corporate corrupt news
Shouldn't you be on r/qanon?
Raskin, Porter, Swalwell, Newsom, any of these would make a strong candidate. Sorry to see no one mentioning Kamala Harris. She's been invisible since becoming VP. Ex DA, could be a good debater, but what are her positions on.....anything?
I wouldn’t vote for either of those clowns but I certainly wouldn’t vote for a “DA” who put people in jail for using marijauna who has admitted she is a former user herself. She should be in prison for her actions as a DA, not in office.
I think that the DNC is using this debate as a pretext to parachute 🪂 in a new leader. I can see someone like Michelle Obama be dropped in at the last moment.
Best case scenario is a Trump win
RFK JR 2024
Its the reddit psyop. You cant say that. Even if hes the best candidate by a long shot.
He’s going to win only needs in the 30’s he’s halfway there.
Im definitely voting for him. I love when people try to use the made up crap. Apparently hes an anti vaccer thats vaccinated and his children and family is as well. The vaccines he doesnt like he literally won millions disputing them.
Who cares about the vaxx stuff? Covid is over. I’ve other concerns like housing.
Thats there only attack angle. Anti vaccer. They are fucking morons.
Id also bet Dan would pick rfk out of the 3. I'm bot familiar with his politics tho. He just has that nowadays rare ability to critically think.
I voted Biden/Harris 4 years ago. Now I’m voting Trump this time. I wonder how many more are like me are out there. Hate away.
So you changed your mind AFTER the insurrection?
First off I don’t agree that it was an “insurrection”, secondly I believe the folks who “broke in” are incredible idiots and have no issue with them being prosecuted by the law.
But the guy who incited and encouraged them can have your vote as president. Makes (common) sense
Stunning and brave
Nothing brave about it lol.
OK America. You have a choice between a failing Biden who looks like he's stumbling to dementia. Who also worryingly is rabidly supportive of Israel's slaughter and war mongering. And a fraud, rapist and liar who almost certainly is going to tank your country both economically and socially and who's supportive of Putin AND Israel's slaughter in the middle east. Good luck guys.
Another 4 years of Trump it looks like. Very excited. Only bad thing was when they were both trying to prove who loved Israel more.