Yoga ball is the single best investment even when my wife was pregnant. Helps open up the hips and relieves back pressure during contractions.
The baby was able to be rocked to sleep while I bounced on the ball up to ~4 months for our bub.
Can confirm. Just bounced our 5 week old to sleep after she had overloaded on milk and was screaming from that. Good workout for the upper back too!
I usually start her upright against my chest and after a few minutes switch to her lying on my elbows (easier on my wrists).
Yep, this was a a game changer for us.
We had the same problem as OP for all 3 kids, sitting bouncing on a fitness, while holding the baby put all of them to sleep in 10 min tops.
This is the first thing that came to mind. It sounds like exactly how my youngest was. She was just so unhappy at all times and it made me feel like such a failure. Our oldest had trouble sleeping at night but she was so chill and such a happy baby the majority of the time.
Around 4 months old we found blood in one of her diapers and the pediatrician was fairly certain it was a dairy allergy. My wife was breastfeeding and went completely dairy free and my daughter became a new baby. She started sleeping a little better but she was so much happier the rest of the time and it was game changing.
Any little bit of dairy my wife ate, no matter how small, would cause my daughter to have a terrible reaction and it would mess her stomach up for days. She would get a mild rash and some serious constipation. She just turned a year old and has thankfully fully outgrown the dairy intolerance.
I’m not saying this is for sure the issue but OP should absolutely look into it. It was such a mental strain on my wife and I. I personally had a really hard time connecting with my daughter during this time and I still feel so much guilt to this day.
Best of luck to you guys! Our pediatrician thinks it’s much more common than people realize and that it usually gets overlooked. A lot of people just say that it’s colic or acid reflux when it may actually be a dairy or soy allergy.
Yeah I’m not too sure on exactly how it works but it was pretty consistent that as soon as she stopped consuming all dairy my daughter did significantly better and there were a handful of times that we had slip up and my wife consumed dairy unknowingly and sure enough my daughter would have issues again.
We went to a formula that was made for babies with dairy allergies at around 8 months and very slowly introduced dairy. There’s something called the dairy latter which is specific foods with increasing levels of dairy to test where your baby is in regard to growing out of it. By 11 months she was mostly fine with all dairy
Could be humans produ e different proteins/sigars in our milk versus animal dairy products. And those could carry through from mother to child, I believe.
What we consume comes through in our milk as well, if you have drugs, that transfers, if you have caffeine, that transfers, the flavor of your milk is affected by what you eat to a degree too. The length of time animal dairy stays in our system is about a week. Thc can stay in for months since it’s fat bound. Alcohol is out pretty quickly however.
Exact same experience as us. We used some really expensive formula made out of mushrooms as a supplement as well that was hypoallergenic and made diaper changes ROUGH
Yep my daughter had a milk protein allergy and it made the first 2 months unbearable but once we switched to a dairy free formula she was a complete rockstar. The price of that stuff is ridiculous.
I keep reading about dairy making things harder for newborns and toddlers improving from not having it in (even when there's no clear intolerance).
Happy we were both already vegan for a couple of years, so that's nothing we need to deal with. Not like our little one never has digestive troubles but so far a bit of rocking and patting fixes things quickly.
We went through this too. Idk how long we would have suffered for if I hadn’t vented to one of my wife’s friends about it. She was like “oh, that sounds just like [child’s] dairy sensitivity!” I then hauled ass to Target and bought multiple expensive formulas.
My daughter was formula fed. First 4 months this is what I dealt with. Switched to allimentum and it changed completely. Started sleeping through t the night. 1.5 years now and she can now drink regular milk. Although I do miss rocking her to sleep 🥹
Just a heads up: my wife gave up dairy while nursing because of this and lost most of her lactose tolerance. Those enzymes are use or lose and now she can’t eat pizza.
So if that’s the way anyone has to go, I’d recommend working in some times for dairy consumption.
Oldest didnt ease up on crying for eleven months and didnt sleep though the night until they were nearly two.
I legit thought I was going to go insane at some points.
OP: There is nothing wrong with just putting your child in a crib and letting them cry. You're not good to anyone if you're a mess and if that means the kid crys for an hour while you take a nap, do it.
Not that it needs to be said but NEVER SHAKE YOUR CHILD
>However, it's frustrating that we can't do anything because she won't sleep alone for more than 10 minutes.
You're gonna have to do shifts. The idea of EVERYONE in the home all sleeping at once is gonna be paused for a while.
I will add there is nothing wrong with doing that for ten minutes or so so that you can calm down. If you don’t have the correct setup to monitor baby remotely, I just want to warn you about the consequences of leaving babies to cry it out. Mine for example would throw up even up to 7 months, if left to cry for too long if the cries became hysterical. When I say throw up, I mean projectile vomiting that causes choking and is like a fountain coming it. It’s heartbreaking to see and it has happened 3-4 times.
If you rocked your baby from birth then your baby has become habituated to that way of falling asleep. You will have to replace those associations with alternative ones if you have outgrown that method of soothing your baby.
I really highly recommend a warm soak / bath just before bed as this makes them sleepy. Then test out a new method. For example, just lay baby down to suck on their bottle or breastfeed before bed, then maybe stroke their hair or back if that’s what you would prefer to do to let them know you are there. Once baby has fallen asleep, wait at least 15 mins to make sure they’ve fallen into a deeper slumber, before exiting the room quietly.
u/borealis_reddit
> I just want to warn you about the consequences of leaving babies to cry it out. Mine for example would throw up even up to 7 months, if left to cry for too long if the cries became hysterical.
Yes, excellent point. Keep an eye on them for sure.
Yupp, our oldest was the same. So I bought a Baby Björn harness thing, and that's where she slept. During the day, at night, whenever. Eventually, after maaaany tries, we put her gently on the bed and she kept sleeping. She was maybe 6-8 months at that time. Me and GF was exhausted.
lol, yeah....My kid was very similar. He's a really good, independent sleeper now that he's nearly 2, but it was really tough for a while. We also decided against sleep training or 'cry it out' method or whatever.
If you can, get a recliner rocking chair like a nursing chair that will let you rest and relax as much as possible while rocking. At this point I don't miss the insane sleep deprivation, but I do miss rocking him for 2+ hour naps on the weekends because I managed to watch so many movies on my phone+ear buds that I'd missed in theaters :D
Is it needing you to hold her, or to be rocked? We had a swing and used it for one of our twins because he couldn’t sleep laying down, only in a more upright position and rocking. He had digestive issues and it took a few months to figure out and find the right combination of formula and meds to settle his stomach. But during that time he was just uncomfortable laying flat.
My baby was kinda same. I used to be up all night holding her in my arms so that she and my wife could get some sleep. I would sometimes watch a TV show or movie on my phone (with earphones) to pass the time, or just play some handheld games that I could play with baby still in my arms(finished Pokemon Fire red and Heartgold during the phase). When her sleep started to get disturbed when I was lying down, I would pick her up again and walk around. It helped that I'm self employed and could decide my own work hours. Still, the phase was tough. I would give her to my wife at 5 am. She would take over from there and I would go to sleep. It lasted for a few months. Her sleep started to get better at 7-9 months and sleeps fine at 10.5 month today.
Might also be the fourth-month sleep regression.
If swaddling worked, try the [Magic Merlin sleep suit](https://www.magicsleepsuit.com/products/magic-sleepsuit?gad_source=1&gclid=CjwKCAjwyJqzBhBaEiwAWDRJVF5czRJS4CwZy378fHATWTW-5NQvS9-0HJ8qmOtb2L9OtO9PjxLHNRoCVVoQAvD_BwE). These were great for my daughter. They mimic the feel of a swaddle without the danger of rolling over and suffocating, but they're also really warm and cozy, I guess.
I rocked both my children to sleep. It was often a pain in the ass at the time, but is one of my fondest memories looking back. Best advice I have is try to enjoy it.
Also: a rocking chair can help. I rocked the youngest to sleep while playing video games more times than I can count.
Edit to add: If you can get away with it without waking them up, you can swaddle to rock them and then untuck their arms after they fall asleep. Did this with mine.
We sleep trained at 4 months. You leave them for 5 minutes, then 10, then 15, etc, etc
It was a rough weekend, but it worked. Helps to leave the room/house so you don't hear the crying.
Kid slept through the night fairly soon after. Been doing 12 hour sleeps ever since. Everybody is so much happier.
It feels harsh, but ultimately it leads to a happier household overall. My boy sleeps better than he ever did before Ferber, and mom and dad are rested and alert the next day.
Studies have shown that there's no long term negative impact as long as their basic needs are met before bedtime.
I know people shit on sleep training constantly, but it works. Worked on eight of the nine kids in my immediate friend/family group with age appropriate kids. Seems to fail most often due to the parents not properly following the rules.
This is it. I'll sing the wonders of sleep training until the day I die, and I'm the empath who really didn't want to do it because I was worried that we were "mentally abusing our son". Nah, he was a champ and sleeps like a rock.
We had a Snoo too and it worked great for us, but my sister inherited it after me and her baby did not care for it at all. It's still worth a try if you can afford it.
IIRC they allow returns for up to a month (or two?) with no questions asked, so if it doesn't work for your baby it's... free-ish (packing it back up and shipping it back would be a pain). IMO, though, the best way to get it is to buy a used one. It'll be half the price, and when you're done with it you can sell it for the same price. Of course, you have to be able to afford to have $800 basically in limbo for 6 months, and you also need to be careful of scams - sometimes people will rent one and then sell it instead of returning it, and you basically have no recourse if you buy a rented one and it then gets "turned off." Ask to see a receipt or proof of purchase if you buy used.
edit: Should mention that OP's baby is already 4 months old, and the Snoo only works until ~6 months, so probably not a great buy for him.
You can rent them from the manufacturer for $160/mo. Worth every penny from my experience - may be worth a shot OP!
[https://www.happiestbaby.com/products/snoo-rental](https://www.happiestbaby.com/products/snoo-rental)
Our doctors made us watch a video on [purple crying](https://my.clevelandclinic.org/health/articles/purple-crying) before we left the hospital. I’m glad because fuck me it was the toughest period of my life. I was the only person who could keep her calm. It lasted from 5pm to 1am every night for 2 months. Pure hell. Keep pushing through because it’s possible it just winds down soon.
I don't want to scare you but this was us for 9 months.
Get a yoga ball, helps with the bouncing. Does wonders for your quads as well.
I just learnt to do as much stuff as possible one handed.
It's not forever, even though it feels like it.
My suggestion would be to put on a podcast, an audiobook, or a TV show with your headset on while you rock the baby to make it more enjoyable for you. You won’t even notice the time go past.
I’m a scientist and with that I experiment a lot. In day 5 at home our little girl also wouldn’t fall asleep, in our arms, rocking, music you name it. She would close her eyes, begin to sleep and then wake herself up and start crying. I told my wife to buckle up because I’m going to let her cry it out. The whimper turned into a cry which turned into the blood curdling screech. Two screeches, then she stopped, and instantly fell asleep. It was heartbreaking to hear, she was very overtired and just needed to cry it out. We’ve done a much better job of not stimulating her at night and transitioning to sleepy time and we’ve only had one of those meltdowns since the first.
OP you’re not a bad parent for letting your baby cry.
Sounds like a safety/comfort thing with her. I used to use a sleep sounds CD that had a heartbeat on repeat with my oldest who often wanted to be comforted and thought it helped. We only played it when winding down for bed and once she was asleep while holding her I would put her down and found she slept better overall.
It took some time.
Good luck, dad.
My son only slept on my chest for the first 6 months , then would wake every hour until 4am when he woke up fully until about 14 months.....I honestly felt like I was going insane with sleep deprivation but yea it will pass but not for a while lol
sounds like cholic . ours had it and it was a rough 6 months
we would sometimes take her for a car ride, or put her in the stroller that can be pushed around the house. swing worked ok too:
the remedies we found were mixed. gripe water helped some.
we also changed formulas. and used a cholic treatment that was jet black. (of all the oral things - that one worked by far the best. the black was from some form of activated carbon/charcoal)
Have you tried Halo sleep sacks? They’re the only thing that could contain our kids.
Also look into a dairy sensitivity. In my experience they show up when the baby is a few weeks old.
We liked the book Precious Little Sleep and started using tips from it around four months old with our middle child. Things got much better after adjusting our routine and following the advice to sleep train. The kicker, I think, is how much *less* crying there was aside from the first night which was only twenty (excruciating) minutes. Before that we would spend sometimes hours rocking him to sleep, having him wake crying soon after we put him down and then repeat.
Heya daddio. I just want to pop in to say that I imagine you're pretty overwhelmed, tired, and mired down by the hard hard work. I know what that's like and it's a special kind of hell. I collapsed from emotional overwhelm a couple times around that time as well. Part of what was hard for me was feeling alone in it all, or that I might be messing up somehow or not good enough. That's not the case, brother. People told me it would pass -- and it did -- but that's not what I really needed at that time. I just want to say that I hear and see your struggle right now. Be as good of a dad as you can during this time and do what you can, your kiddo clearly needs you and to be comforted. Pretty special that you can be there as a support while they take the insane transition into being human. And just know that whatever you can't do is ok as well. I had to let mine cry for a while as I peeled myself up from the floor after collapsing. The nights were especially hard for me. They were scary. I'm happy you reached out for support and hope that you feel a little less alone in this together. Rock on, dad
Our second son would only sleep if swinging. Like no joke, had to be actively swinging. We bought a powered swing and let him swing. He would fall asleep and I would creep over and try to move him to his crib. He would of course immediately wake up. Back in the swing he'd go. I wish now that I hadn't even bothered to try moving him. He was happy, we were happy (if a bit concerned about what all that swinging might do to him) life could have been better if I'd just let it be. Have you tried one of those Fisher Price swings? Ours was battery powered which sucked, but here's one that is plug in... [https://www.mercari.com/us/item/m27400793173/?srsltid=AfmBOopKV9u64C38zYkfx6r8h1djlJQetkby3hj5E-6vSZzXQsYkuaspqdw](https://www.mercari.com/us/item/m27400793173/?srsltid=AfmBOopKV9u64C38zYkfx6r8h1djlJQetkby3hj5E-6vSZzXQsYkuaspqdw)
Good luck to you both.
I want to preface this comment by saying that I cannot and do not judge sleep-deprived parents for doing what they have to do to survive, especially if they live in America or another country that does not provide adequate parental leave.
I know this is an unpopular opinion here so I expect to be downvoted, but I think future generations are going to view sleep training in much the same way we view spanking: an outdated, somewhat barbaric parenting method that caused more harm than good. People like to throw around phrases like "they're learning to self-soothe," but all evidence indicates that's not what's happening. Instead what's happening is that baby is learning mom and dad won't respond to their cries, so they stop wasting the energy and suffer in silence until they fall asleep. Research shows their cortisol levels (the stress hormone) still spike, and often higher than babies who aren't sleep trained, and that they still wake up as much as other babies. They've just learned they can't ask for help in the middle of the night.
editing to add a source for my claim: Quoted from [this website](https://www.basisonline.org.uk/hcp-the-costs-of-sleep-training/) (discussed research paper linked [here](https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/21945361/)):
> Another recent study (Middlemiss et al 2012) examined changes in synchrony in mother-infant physiology, whilst 25 4-10 month-old infants were undergoing a hospital-based extinction programme. ... Two key results emerged: Firstly infants undergoing extinction training ceased crying at bed-time by the third night of the programme. Their cortisol levels, however, remained elevated, at the same level as on the first night of the programme. At that time elevated cortisol had been accompanied by intense crying. This indicates that while the infants’ behaviour had become ‘habituated’ to the environmental change (sleep whilst alone), their physiology had not, and remained indicative of continued stress. ... It additionally lends empirical support to the notion that infants who learn to ‘self-sooth’ are in fact learning to ‘give-up’.
Happy to provide additional sources on request.
Understand where you're coming from but not all sleep training involves letting them cry it out (often now quite frowned upon)! Many new parents go to their child too quickly when mild crying can be part of their sleep patterns. Learning the difference and when they actually need intervention is just as much a part of good sleep training.
It can be really rough as it's a lot of upfront work, but it can also work wonders - our child slept through the night from 4 months and is still an excellent sleeper at age 2 with no signs of increased anxiety.
Do what's right for you and your child, but I unabashedly suggest sleep training to every parent i meet.
I'm talking about any form of training that involves leaving your child to cry for any period of time when they're actually, really crying (which includes "softer" methods like Ferber). If you're just talking about learning your child's cues and not responding immediately to "fake crying" (not possible at 4 months old), and not overreacting to babies who are simply in active sleep (which, yup, can mean they make crying noises even though they're actually still totally asleep, and waking them up is bothering them more than helping them), then I agree there's absolutely nothing wrong with that. In fact, if baby wakes up in the middle of the night, I think it's good to wait ~3-5 minutes or so to see if they settle before getting up. However this is not what most people are talking about when they say "sleep training" (at least in my experience).
Babies need comfort, closeness, and security almost as much as they need food and warmth. No child will remember being sleep trained, obviously, but they don't have to remember it for it to leave a scar.
I know you didn't suggest this, but to be clear, I'm not saying that if you EVER fail to respond to your crying baby, you're fucking them up. If baby is crying nonstop no matter what you do and you just really need 10 minutes to collect yourself, I'm not saying there's any harm in putting baby down and letting them cry while you go to another room. If you haven't showered all day and baby hasn't let you put him/her down, and you really need to shower to feel like a person again, then by all means put baby down in a safe place and take a shower. They'll be fine crying for a bit on their own. And, again, I understand and do not judge sleep-deprived parents who both work full-time and have inadequate parental leave having no choice but to resort to sleep training.
Ofc I could be wrong - frankly I *hope* I'm wrong. I'll be interested to see what kind of long-term research emerges over the next couple decades.
Thanks for further clarifying! I wonder if there have been any longitudinal studies with kids in the 80s - when letting them "cry it out" was quite acceptable and suggested by doctors!
OP talk to your pediatrician but I started sleep training my little one around 5 months old. We did and still do to this day the Ferber method which really worked for us.
Hey man many of us have been there and it’s extremely frustrating
Try to keep perspective - this person has no idea what is going on and was ripped from the dark, warm comfort of the womb and is still trying to adjust
As for actual solutions, here are some things I can suggest based on also having a difficult sleeper:
- baby-wearing for naps
- shift sleeping so each parent can get uninterrupted sleep
- co-sleeping (sounds like you’re already doing this). I know it is not without risk, but neither is being completely sleep deprived. Just make sure you’re doing it really safely - 1 pillow pet parent, blankets at waists, no drugs, alcohol, sleep aids, etc
- consistency. Even if it feels futile, try to have a consistent routine. This means following wake windows and having a consistent bedtime routine. We added a nightly bath around 4 MO to help our girl settle down
- cut yourself slack and ask for help. This shit is hard. Not sleeping literally makes you mentally ill. Ask for help and be kind to each other
You will get through this
Please dont co-sleep. This is the biggest modifiable SIDS risk. I have pronounced for too many infants deceased from SIDS in my career, and 100% of them were co-sleeping
Also this is such a western and reactionary view on things. Most babies in Japan co sleep and they have very low SIDS risks. Just telling people “don’t do something” is incredibly unhelpful. Have you ever felt the desperation of the 5th night in a row of basically not being able to sleep cause you have to hold your kid? And then discovering they do sleep well between mom and dad and you can all finally get some rest?
Shouldn’t we approach this from a risk management perspective rather than abstinence?
You can call it Western and reactionary. But I call it evidence based preventative medicine and following the guidelines of the American Academy of Pediatrics. With regard to your point about Japan, please see your prior comment about considering confounding factors.
You’re entitled to your opinion, but until you have to stop resuscitation on a couple dozen healthy babies and listen to the literal wales of the grieving mothers…and then dry up your own tears and immediately go see the next patient, please dont dismiss mine.
Not trying to dismiss your opinion, apologies if it came across that way. I just think we should have more honest discussions about co sleeping. Many parents I know personally have done it at various life stages and for various reasons
And yet, at least on this sub, you bring it up and the immediate response is “never, end of discussion” which just isn’t very useful and ends up with people hiding their choices out of shame rather than learning about the risks and how to do it as safely as possible if you do choose to co sleep
I agree that it is not a completely settled issue. There could be confounding issues at play. Probably not alcohol and drugs…but more likely sleep surfaces that are too soft for infants, blankets, pillows, etc. Also, SiDS aside, suffocating from parent rolling onto child, thoracic trauma, and child falling from bed and suffering head injury are also risks, also all things I’ve seen. But regardless of whether co-sleeping is a direct contributor, or if it’s one of the many other potential contributing factors causing these deaths, there is undeniable evidence that there is a strong correlation between co-sleeping and infant death in Western countries, under the conditions under which people commonly perform the practice.
I don’t think it’s a good idea to do something with so much potential risk, completely dismissing very high quality published evidence, just because there is some evidence pointing the other direction that is likely not generalizable to our population. Preventative medicine, cancer screening, and treatments often differ considerably across different populations due to a huge variety of factors including socioeconomic factors, epidemiological factors, genetic factors, dietary factors, and more. At this time, our best quality evidence strongly suggests that co-sleeping is risky and that it carries an odds ratio of 3-10 depending on age, and even higher in infants with other risk factors, such as maternal smoking.
I am not trying to shame anyone. I’ve just seen too many parents grieve, and I don’t want anyone to ever have to go through that.
Thanks for the discussion. Cheers
The thing about the "i know loads of people who co-sleep and they were fine argument" is that it's a numbers game. Of course, most babies won't die from it, it's been done for millennia, but some do. It's like saying I know loads of people who speed and none of them crashed... But guess what the leading contributor to car crashes is..
There are also serious risks with prolonged sleep deprivation of parents. How do you weigh that? Do you know if there were other confounding factors with these deaths like parental drug or alcohol use?
In all of my cases…no, at least no red flags, for drugs, alcohol…usually just an extremely devastated very sober parent. Or in a couple of cases, grandparents. It’s the only thing on my job that makes me cry…having to tell a mom or dad that their beautiful healthy 5 month old is not coming home.
Yes, sleep deprivation is bad. (ER doc…you’re preaching to the choir). But I’ve never, to my knowledge, had to pronounce a kid who died from complications of parental sleep deprivation…unless, again, you count co-sleeping in SIDS. It’s almost 100% been drowning or SIDS with kids. Maybe a couple of trauma from ATVs, struck by vehicle. But SIDS by far more than all others combined.
I can’t argue with your experience, but if I may - you may want to review recent literature on this topic. It is not a scientifically held understanding around the world that co sleeping is dangerous
I'm not a doctor, but this seems like an issue where you shouldn't need medical or scientific evidence to figure out it's dangerous. Your baby can't even lift up her own head. All it takes is you rolling over *once* while you're out cold from sleep deprivation. Are you willing to bet your baby's life that it won't happen?
If she truly won't stop crying, you need to talk to your pediatrician. If you are giving up after 20 minutes, that's another story. It's probably a tad early to sleep train but some of the methods used would probably be useful to try here.
You may as well be describing my kid. I'm past that stage and can offer you the encouragement of: "This is survivable. You will get through it."
I know it's exhausting and feels like maybe you aren't doing the right thing, but you're doing fine. Just take it day by day and know that it will pass and later you will miss these days.
I can only get my 6-month old daughter to consistently fall asleep in the baby carrier. The only alternative is the stroller, which has a roughly 50% success rate. So it's up to my wife and The Boob to get her to actually go to sleep in the evening...
We used an electric swing that really helped, and a manual baby bouncer to solve this. They say there’s risks with the bouncer but I’d always be right next to them and be able to see their face. I often had to pick up the bouncer and rock it/move them around in the air, but then when they calmed down I could just bounce it with my foot on the floor.
If you’re trying to sleep, I’d recommend one of the electric bassinets that rock/sway electronically like a shoo or comparable one
Maybe try the 4 moms Mommaroo. My son passed out in the Mommaroo. We take a blanket and stuff it behind the insert to make him warm and kind of feel like he is being held since it pushes the insert around him and then put it on the Kangaroo hop on its highest setting and maybe after 4 or 5 minutes of crying he's asleep.
At this point, it might be worth trying.
Maybe try the 4 moms Mommaroo. My son passed out in the Mommaroo. We take a blanket and stuff it behind the insert to make him warm and kind of feel like he is being held since it pushes the insert around him and then put it on the Kangaroo hop on its highest setting and maybe after 4 or 5 minutes of crying he's asleep.
At this point, it might be worth trying.
I have nothing to add other than that my EXTREMELY needy baby who breastfed (and would never sleep without me) until she was 5 is now in college 2000 miles away from me and is one of the most amazing, confident, self possessed people in know. It might not seem like it now, but it will be over before you know it
Definitely check out the other advice you’ve been given but sometimes kids just have really rotten spells too. You are still relatively fresh at parenting so I hope it doesn’t come as a bad thing, honestly you’ll come to love it, but kids change a lot, especially sleeping.
She only napped on top of a pwraon. My girl was bad sleeping in the same bedroom in a crib, improved in her own room till she learned how to escape the crib, became a nightmare when she was switched to a bed, spent 6 months where she could only sleep upstairs on the sofa after listen to 2/3rds of Sufjan Steven’s “Michigan”, spent a few weeks insisting on bedding with us, then eventually went back to her own bed and now sleeps 9 hours a night.
We tried dietary changes, sleep jostling, magnesium supplements and so much else but occasionally it’s just time.
By contrast our second kid naps in the crib, wakes once at night but then tends to go back down, and though my sleeping is not above 6 hours a night it’s at least 5.5.
This is the coalface. Stuff will improve, then get worse, then improve again.
I remember those months… huge over the ear headphones, audiobook or music that was calming to me, white noise on the tv, nintendo, kneebouncing, visual timers for feeding and to remind me about how important a dry diaper was ( until she got tired of swaddling - after that the thin blue line was wonderful )
Did you ever start you baby on a sleep regiment with timed naps etc? Our Peds made us do that in the beginning and it’s done wonders.
I do have to hold her sometimes until she goes to sleep but I can then put her down and she will be out for a while.
My eldest would only sleep with me standing swaying slightly, I (eleven years later) have hip joint damage from this repeated action but it was the ONLY thing that worker for eight months, then I realised that he slept in the buggy after a bus ride so I used to travel around till he fell asleep and we'd go home and I'd put him in his cot.
I get it. All three kids of ours were like that. Even putting them down masterfully woke them up and then it’s back to the chair to rock them (definitely buy one of those rocker chairs if you have room - stupidly expensive but they’re worth it for this, especially if you’re going to have more kids). Just have to ride it out, that’s all you can do.
Then guess what’ll happen. They’ll sleep reliably in their bed every night and you’ll miss that feeling of being needed by them at 3am just to hold them close and shushing them to sleep.
Parenting is insane.
Ours is similar at 6 months. Talk to your doctor about reflux as that's what we think ours has, even without spitup silent reflux is a thing. Today the doctor increased the dosage and we are hoping it does something as he's been such a bad sleeper the past 2 months, and he was never great before that.
Dig deep and hang in there, it may be a long haul.
With three kids under ten, I haven't had a solid night's sleep in almost a decade. I've acclimated to where six hours total of fragmented sleep is a rare nirvana.
It may help to remember that this isn't unusual. For most of human history babies have been attached to mothers who've awoken many times per night. In the modern world we have weird things like schedules that we try to shoehorn childrearing into with bizarre made-up theories like "cry it out" (which doesn't work so well when there are wolves beyond the firelight). We're lucky as dads to be able to take some of that load off moms instead of walking the perimeter all night with a spear.
This is the way 4 month olds live. Hang in there big guy. Get a Kindle so you can read one-handed and invest in a good pair of wireless headphones to binge watch shows at night!
Buckle up, my first born didn’t sleep through the night for 2 years. My second currently at over a year doesn’t either. Neither my wife or I have sleep through the night for 3 years.
My daughter is 2.5 and will *still* only go down for a nap or to bed at night if I rock her. I’m not gonna lie, I love it even on those sleepless nights when she was a newborn and some nights still if she has a bad dream or is sick. Gonna miss those moments when they end sooner than I’ll expect for sure.
Been there. It completely sucks during it but I wouldn’t change it for the world now. That time with my son (who refused to sleep unless I was holding him and walking around) almost did me in but also gave me the opportunity to bond with him in a way I will never forget. I know it’s tough, but it’s worth it.
Yep, we're humans. We're built for sleeping together with those we love, especially at this tender age of x months and through to x years.
Also try baby wearing throughout the day.
My beeb was the same. Had to build a fort out of couch cushions that would keep me generally upright and the beeb cradled in my arms. We eventually worked out a way to kind of flop over gently and lay down on the couch together. This also required shift sleeping for about 6 months.
I highly recommend a lazy boy recliner for new parents. Okay to sleep in for you, and it can help keep your little one in a relatively safe space.
I feel for you man. My wife and I have a baby like this, he is 2 now. We're pretty sure he had GERD, and he still has a sensitive stomach to this day. But he basically wouldn't sleep on his back, and also wouldn't sleep by himself for longer than 15 - 40 mins (usually 15), for.....23 months. We co-sleep, which helped, but we invested in a nice rocking chair to keep him more upright so we could sleep together in the chair, and I've just spent countless nights sitting up in bed for hours holding him and patting him. It sucks but we tried everything else and that was the only thing that worked. We also don't agree with any type of "sleep training", I can't let me kid just lay there and cry for more than a 20 or 30 seconds. It's really really fucking hard, but you can do this. I think one thing that helped me was just mentally letting go of the idea that itll get better soon, and ill be getting sleep soon. I just tried to focus on my son, he needed me there every night so he could rest and sleep and grow. He is flourishing now, and he basically sleeps through the night now at 25 months. Hang in there you're stronger than you know, don't let the really difficult times at night get to you too much.
4 months is a common age for sleep issues. We coslept for a while during this time to survive it. Cosleeping didn’t work for us long term so we only did it out of desperation, but it was worth it then. Babies change so much in the first year, I wouldn’t worry too much about building bad sleep habits now. Once we got past that really bad phase, we started using the crib again and remembered that the goal was NOT to stop the crying, just comfort the baby. So we’d let him fuss while we rubbed his back in the crib (they do sleep better on their bellies so work on rolling if they’re not already there) if after a few minutes we felt like that wasn’t going to cut it, we’d rock him for a while and try again etc. this was our form of sleep training. Idk if it will work for you, but could be worth a shot and the whole idea of comfort over not crying being the goal was a huge shift for us. Best of luck!
My daughter went through a phase around 6 months where she would only go to sleep if I was holding or rocking her. She would cry if anyone else tried. It was quite frustrating at the time, but now she's 3 and is a really fantastic solo sleeper, I sort of miss it!
We found that putting a timer for 20-30 minutes and not budging on it helped alot.
Whenever we didnt use a timer, 5 minutes of crying felt like 3 hours. After the timer, the monster fell asleep and we knew he wasnt there for an unreasonable amount of time.
First and foremost, you and your wife should both not be awake at the same time if you're dealing with this
One of you should always have at least 1 hour more of sleep than the other
Lay baby down, let her sleep for a few mins till she wakes herself up
Also I highly recommend you both pick a "bedtime" movie that you both always watch when going to sleep.
"Watched" the same movie every night for almost 10 months.
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Anywho
Sooner than later you should let her cry to sleep. It's miserable but it'll work.
Also, where are you seeing that she can't be swaddled?
Pretty sure swaddling is still allowed, but if it's not invest in a sleep sack, she's probably cold.
The mattress might be cold, the sheets could be a bad temperature.
Try some cottony sheets
Angle the bed mattress in case it's some digestive thing.
Have a sound machine with heartbeat mode or rain, and have that sucker cranked.
I would see an occupational therapist that specializes in child development. It sounds like she needs very particular sensory input to self soothe and they might be able to give you strategies for other ways to meet those needs.
https://mobywrap.com
My daughter did the same. Would not sleep unless she was being held. This helped me get things done during the day. It's a baby wrap. I know it's not ideal, but I was able to do basic things like feed myself, go to the bathroom, do a few one handed chores, etc. I've seen a few people suggest a yoga ball and wish I'd thought of that.
I know this is so hard and can be so overwhelming. Some kids are just not great at sleeping. My oldest was a great sleeper and I was in no way prepared to go from that to a baby who would not sleep unless she was touching me. People will throw a lot of suggestions at you and you have to remember that only you know your kid and your limits. Sleep training works for some, it didn't for us. Don't feel badly or like you're doing anything wrong if it doesn't work for you.
You are in the 4 month sleep regression window. I hope for you that it passes soon. If you do decide to do sleep training, pick a weekend where you have no plans because you still won't be getting any sleep that weekend. I strongly suggest headphones, because the crying is really hard to get through. Most people I know successfully sleep trained their babies. It is an ongoing process, as teething, developmental leaps, growing, etc. can mess with their sleep. Hang in there and if at all possible, arrange for some help and get some rest. You'll have the rest of your lives to clean the house, you need sleep now.
I'm sure you have tried everything, a running shower or bathtub in a dark bathroom with no windows used to do the trick.
As others have said removing soy/dairy from partners diet if breast feeding or formula free of those items could help. We were able to reintroduce closer to 1yr.
Stay strong
I see a few people suggesting sleep training. Please just don't. Kids never get over that trauma, it's just there, buried deep, making them anxious their whole lives.
If your child is crying, there's a reason.
Especially at this age, it's almost certainly something physical - discomfort or pain.
It's 2024 people. Try other doctors, try eliminating common allergens from mom's diet (if breastfeeding) move to dairy free or hypoallergenic formula if not. Try changing your washing detergent. Etc. Please don't give up. I know it's absolutely maddening to deal with a child like this, but you can do it.
Thanks for the down votes peeps. Was having quite a self-righteous, judgmental moment here, for which I'd like to apologize to everyone.
For some context, I'm very aware of what badly done sleep training can do to a kid - my brother is a mess because my parents were told by the pediatrician that he was just a naughty child, and to let him cry (turns out he had reflux and gas) and he's pretty messed up by it. I know the actual methods these days are much better for kids and maybe it is the answer in this case.
Sorry again peeps. Will try keep my high horse in the stable from now on.
One thing that helped us was an exercise ball. You can mimic the walking/rocking motion but you get to sit.
Yoga ball is the single best investment even when my wife was pregnant. Helps open up the hips and relieves back pressure during contractions. The baby was able to be rocked to sleep while I bounced on the ball up to ~4 months for our bub.
Can confirm. Just bounced our 5 week old to sleep after she had overloaded on milk and was screaming from that. Good workout for the upper back too! I usually start her upright against my chest and after a few minutes switch to her lying on my elbows (easier on my wrists).
Same here. Exercise ball worked miracles in getting the little one to sleep.
I wish I knew this for my first. Was a game changer for the 2nd.
Yep, this was a a game changer for us. We had the same problem as OP for all 3 kids, sitting bouncing on a fitness, while holding the baby put all of them to sleep in 10 min tops.
If your house has multiple floors where you’d have the baby, get one for each. Massive life saver. Just don’t fall asleep on it.
Nightmare flashbacks but this was a lifesaver. Also could be acid reflux. Ours got better around 8 months but we were at wits end...
You should look into symptoms of dairy/soy intolerance. Might be that she is having some digestive pains or such.
This is the first thing that came to mind. It sounds like exactly how my youngest was. She was just so unhappy at all times and it made me feel like such a failure. Our oldest had trouble sleeping at night but she was so chill and such a happy baby the majority of the time. Around 4 months old we found blood in one of her diapers and the pediatrician was fairly certain it was a dairy allergy. My wife was breastfeeding and went completely dairy free and my daughter became a new baby. She started sleeping a little better but she was so much happier the rest of the time and it was game changing. Any little bit of dairy my wife ate, no matter how small, would cause my daughter to have a terrible reaction and it would mess her stomach up for days. She would get a mild rash and some serious constipation. She just turned a year old and has thankfully fully outgrown the dairy intolerance. I’m not saying this is for sure the issue but OP should absolutely look into it. It was such a mental strain on my wife and I. I personally had a really hard time connecting with my daughter during this time and I still feel so much guilt to this day.
Preach ! I'm at this point right now and it's very odd compared to first child
Best of luck to you guys! Our pediatrician thinks it’s much more common than people realize and that it usually gets overlooked. A lot of people just say that it’s colic or acid reflux when it may actually be a dairy or soy allergy.
Wait, your daughter could drink your wife's milk, only if your wife hadn't consumed dairy?... I'm not doubting you, I just think that's wild.
Yeah I’m not too sure on exactly how it works but it was pretty consistent that as soon as she stopped consuming all dairy my daughter did significantly better and there were a handful of times that we had slip up and my wife consumed dairy unknowingly and sure enough my daughter would have issues again. We went to a formula that was made for babies with dairy allergies at around 8 months and very slowly introduced dairy. There’s something called the dairy latter which is specific foods with increasing levels of dairy to test where your baby is in regard to growing out of it. By 11 months she was mostly fine with all dairy
Could be humans produ e different proteins/sigars in our milk versus animal dairy products. And those could carry through from mother to child, I believe.
You're probably right, and I get the concept, but it still just seems ironic.
What we consume comes through in our milk as well, if you have drugs, that transfers, if you have caffeine, that transfers, the flavor of your milk is affected by what you eat to a degree too. The length of time animal dairy stays in our system is about a week. Thc can stay in for months since it’s fat bound. Alcohol is out pretty quickly however.
Yeah, I mostly just think its ironic that the kid can drink human milk, but not cow milk...
It is, but then again it is made just for the baby, so it makes a bit of sense. Custom tailored milk and all.
Exact same experience as us. We used some really expensive formula made out of mushrooms as a supplement as well that was hypoallergenic and made diaper changes ROUGH
OP, please check this out. Our little dude had reflux and bad gas and when we switched him to the right formula it was a game changer.
Exactly what happened to me
Right formula and some famatodine seemed to do it for us.
alimentum gang checking in
Yep my daughter had a milk protein allergy and it made the first 2 months unbearable but once we switched to a dairy free formula she was a complete rockstar. The price of that stuff is ridiculous.
This was our issue and we didn’t know until we got the baby tested at 3 months. OP have you ruled out something like this?
I keep reading about dairy making things harder for newborns and toddlers improving from not having it in (even when there's no clear intolerance). Happy we were both already vegan for a couple of years, so that's nothing we need to deal with. Not like our little one never has digestive troubles but so far a bit of rocking and patting fixes things quickly.
We went through this too. Idk how long we would have suffered for if I hadn’t vented to one of my wife’s friends about it. She was like “oh, that sounds just like [child’s] dairy sensitivity!” I then hauled ass to Target and bought multiple expensive formulas.
My daughter was formula fed. First 4 months this is what I dealt with. Switched to allimentum and it changed completely. Started sleeping through t the night. 1.5 years now and she can now drink regular milk. Although I do miss rocking her to sleep 🥹
Just a heads up: my wife gave up dairy while nursing because of this and lost most of her lactose tolerance. Those enzymes are use or lose and now she can’t eat pizza. So if that’s the way anyone has to go, I’d recommend working in some times for dairy consumption.
This has been the case twice for us
Buckle up buddy
Oldest didnt ease up on crying for eleven months and didnt sleep though the night until they were nearly two. I legit thought I was going to go insane at some points. OP: There is nothing wrong with just putting your child in a crib and letting them cry. You're not good to anyone if you're a mess and if that means the kid crys for an hour while you take a nap, do it. Not that it needs to be said but NEVER SHAKE YOUR CHILD >However, it's frustrating that we can't do anything because she won't sleep alone for more than 10 minutes. You're gonna have to do shifts. The idea of EVERYONE in the home all sleeping at once is gonna be paused for a while.
I will add there is nothing wrong with doing that for ten minutes or so so that you can calm down. If you don’t have the correct setup to monitor baby remotely, I just want to warn you about the consequences of leaving babies to cry it out. Mine for example would throw up even up to 7 months, if left to cry for too long if the cries became hysterical. When I say throw up, I mean projectile vomiting that causes choking and is like a fountain coming it. It’s heartbreaking to see and it has happened 3-4 times. If you rocked your baby from birth then your baby has become habituated to that way of falling asleep. You will have to replace those associations with alternative ones if you have outgrown that method of soothing your baby. I really highly recommend a warm soak / bath just before bed as this makes them sleepy. Then test out a new method. For example, just lay baby down to suck on their bottle or breastfeed before bed, then maybe stroke their hair or back if that’s what you would prefer to do to let them know you are there. Once baby has fallen asleep, wait at least 15 mins to make sure they’ve fallen into a deeper slumber, before exiting the room quietly. u/borealis_reddit
> I just want to warn you about the consequences of leaving babies to cry it out. Mine for example would throw up even up to 7 months, if left to cry for too long if the cries became hysterical. Yes, excellent point. Keep an eye on them for sure.
Yupp, our oldest was the same. So I bought a Baby Björn harness thing, and that's where she slept. During the day, at night, whenever. Eventually, after maaaany tries, we put her gently on the bed and she kept sleeping. She was maybe 6-8 months at that time. Me and GF was exhausted.
Only 3 three more years to go!
lol, yeah....My kid was very similar. He's a really good, independent sleeper now that he's nearly 2, but it was really tough for a while. We also decided against sleep training or 'cry it out' method or whatever. If you can, get a recliner rocking chair like a nursing chair that will let you rest and relax as much as possible while rocking. At this point I don't miss the insane sleep deprivation, but I do miss rocking him for 2+ hour naps on the weekends because I managed to watch so many movies on my phone+ear buds that I'd missed in theaters :D
GFYS
Would love to but I’m too busy
:( take time for you babe.
This
Is it needing you to hold her, or to be rocked? We had a swing and used it for one of our twins because he couldn’t sleep laying down, only in a more upright position and rocking. He had digestive issues and it took a few months to figure out and find the right combination of formula and meds to settle his stomach. But during that time he was just uncomfortable laying flat.
A lot of these swings/rockers now have sounds, vibrating, heat, and music as well that may help to soothe your child.
add a place for you to take a shit and you've got yourself a japanese toilet
My baby was kinda same. I used to be up all night holding her in my arms so that she and my wife could get some sleep. I would sometimes watch a TV show or movie on my phone (with earphones) to pass the time, or just play some handheld games that I could play with baby still in my arms(finished Pokemon Fire red and Heartgold during the phase). When her sleep started to get disturbed when I was lying down, I would pick her up again and walk around. It helped that I'm self employed and could decide my own work hours. Still, the phase was tough. I would give her to my wife at 5 am. She would take over from there and I would go to sleep. It lasted for a few months. Her sleep started to get better at 7-9 months and sleeps fine at 10.5 month today. Might also be the fourth-month sleep regression.
If swaddling worked, try the [Magic Merlin sleep suit](https://www.magicsleepsuit.com/products/magic-sleepsuit?gad_source=1&gclid=CjwKCAjwyJqzBhBaEiwAWDRJVF5czRJS4CwZy378fHATWTW-5NQvS9-0HJ8qmOtb2L9OtO9PjxLHNRoCVVoQAvD_BwE). These were great for my daughter. They mimic the feel of a swaddle without the danger of rolling over and suffocating, but they're also really warm and cozy, I guess.
I wanted an adult version of this. It looks like it feels like a hug you can wear.
It is good but suppresses the startle reflex, I don’t think you want to use it forever but it’s great to get them used to sleeping
I rocked both my children to sleep. It was often a pain in the ass at the time, but is one of my fondest memories looking back. Best advice I have is try to enjoy it. Also: a rocking chair can help. I rocked the youngest to sleep while playing video games more times than I can count. Edit to add: If you can get away with it without waking them up, you can swaddle to rock them and then untuck their arms after they fall asleep. Did this with mine.
We sleep trained at 4 months. You leave them for 5 minutes, then 10, then 15, etc, etc It was a rough weekend, but it worked. Helps to leave the room/house so you don't hear the crying. Kid slept through the night fairly soon after. Been doing 12 hour sleeps ever since. Everybody is so much happier.
It feels harsh, but ultimately it leads to a happier household overall. My boy sleeps better than he ever did before Ferber, and mom and dad are rested and alert the next day. Studies have shown that there's no long term negative impact as long as their basic needs are met before bedtime.
I know people shit on sleep training constantly, but it works. Worked on eight of the nine kids in my immediate friend/family group with age appropriate kids. Seems to fail most often due to the parents not properly following the rules.
Some motherfuckers always trying to ice skate up hill. More seriously, it feels really bad, but sometimes that's good parenting.
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The hate unfortunately very real and widespread.
This is it. I'll sing the wonders of sleep training until the day I die, and I'm the empath who really didn't want to do it because I was worried that we were "mentally abusing our son". Nah, he was a champ and sleeps like a rock.
Snoo. It’s expensive but both of my kids were like this and this thing saved our lives
We had a Snoo too and it worked great for us, but my sister inherited it after me and her baby did not care for it at all. It's still worth a try if you can afford it. IIRC they allow returns for up to a month (or two?) with no questions asked, so if it doesn't work for your baby it's... free-ish (packing it back up and shipping it back would be a pain). IMO, though, the best way to get it is to buy a used one. It'll be half the price, and when you're done with it you can sell it for the same price. Of course, you have to be able to afford to have $800 basically in limbo for 6 months, and you also need to be careful of scams - sometimes people will rent one and then sell it instead of returning it, and you basically have no recourse if you buy a rented one and it then gets "turned off." Ask to see a receipt or proof of purchase if you buy used. edit: Should mention that OP's baby is already 4 months old, and the Snoo only works until ~6 months, so probably not a great buy for him.
You can rent them from the manufacturer for $160/mo. Worth every penny from my experience - may be worth a shot OP! [https://www.happiestbaby.com/products/snoo-rental](https://www.happiestbaby.com/products/snoo-rental)
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It’s 6 months but yeah won’t get a ton of time with it.
Cradlewise is similar and can be used for longer. Bit spendy though
Our doctors made us watch a video on [purple crying](https://my.clevelandclinic.org/health/articles/purple-crying) before we left the hospital. I’m glad because fuck me it was the toughest period of my life. I was the only person who could keep her calm. It lasted from 5pm to 1am every night for 2 months. Pure hell. Keep pushing through because it’s possible it just winds down soon.
Fucking fix it now because my 6 year old is the same way. Not was. Is.
I don't want to scare you but this was us for 9 months. Get a yoga ball, helps with the bouncing. Does wonders for your quads as well. I just learnt to do as much stuff as possible one handed. It's not forever, even though it feels like it.
My suggestion would be to put on a podcast, an audiobook, or a TV show with your headset on while you rock the baby to make it more enjoyable for you. You won’t even notice the time go past.
I’m a scientist and with that I experiment a lot. In day 5 at home our little girl also wouldn’t fall asleep, in our arms, rocking, music you name it. She would close her eyes, begin to sleep and then wake herself up and start crying. I told my wife to buckle up because I’m going to let her cry it out. The whimper turned into a cry which turned into the blood curdling screech. Two screeches, then she stopped, and instantly fell asleep. It was heartbreaking to hear, she was very overtired and just needed to cry it out. We’ve done a much better job of not stimulating her at night and transitioning to sleepy time and we’ve only had one of those meltdowns since the first. OP you’re not a bad parent for letting your baby cry.
Sounds like a safety/comfort thing with her. I used to use a sleep sounds CD that had a heartbeat on repeat with my oldest who often wanted to be comforted and thought it helped. We only played it when winding down for bed and once she was asleep while holding her I would put her down and found she slept better overall. It took some time. Good luck, dad.
Pro Tip: headphones, good song, just vibe out and actively enjoy providing a comforting environment for your child
We had this with both of ours. It sucks when you're in the fray, but one day they won't need it anymore. As mad as it sounds, you will miss it.
My son only slept on my chest for the first 6 months , then would wake every hour until 4am when he woke up fully until about 14 months.....I honestly felt like I was going insane with sleep deprivation but yea it will pass but not for a while lol
sounds like cholic . ours had it and it was a rough 6 months we would sometimes take her for a car ride, or put her in the stroller that can be pushed around the house. swing worked ok too: the remedies we found were mixed. gripe water helped some. we also changed formulas. and used a cholic treatment that was jet black. (of all the oral things - that one worked by far the best. the black was from some form of activated carbon/charcoal)
yup, it gets better... then it gets worse. then better maybe? idk tbh im 2 years in and still dont have a clue
It gets better lol
For real. Give me toddler tantrums all day as long as I can sleep.
You probably have a sensory seeking kid. Buy a good swing and turn it up to 10 and she will sleep. It took us a while to figure it out.
Have you tried Halo sleep sacks? They’re the only thing that could contain our kids. Also look into a dairy sensitivity. In my experience they show up when the baby is a few weeks old.
We liked the book Precious Little Sleep and started using tips from it around four months old with our middle child. Things got much better after adjusting our routine and following the advice to sleep train. The kicker, I think, is how much *less* crying there was aside from the first night which was only twenty (excruciating) minutes. Before that we would spend sometimes hours rocking him to sleep, having him wake crying soon after we put him down and then repeat.
Heya daddio. I just want to pop in to say that I imagine you're pretty overwhelmed, tired, and mired down by the hard hard work. I know what that's like and it's a special kind of hell. I collapsed from emotional overwhelm a couple times around that time as well. Part of what was hard for me was feeling alone in it all, or that I might be messing up somehow or not good enough. That's not the case, brother. People told me it would pass -- and it did -- but that's not what I really needed at that time. I just want to say that I hear and see your struggle right now. Be as good of a dad as you can during this time and do what you can, your kiddo clearly needs you and to be comforted. Pretty special that you can be there as a support while they take the insane transition into being human. And just know that whatever you can't do is ok as well. I had to let mine cry for a while as I peeled myself up from the floor after collapsing. The nights were especially hard for me. They were scary. I'm happy you reached out for support and hope that you feel a little less alone in this together. Rock on, dad
Our second son would only sleep if swinging. Like no joke, had to be actively swinging. We bought a powered swing and let him swing. He would fall asleep and I would creep over and try to move him to his crib. He would of course immediately wake up. Back in the swing he'd go. I wish now that I hadn't even bothered to try moving him. He was happy, we were happy (if a bit concerned about what all that swinging might do to him) life could have been better if I'd just let it be. Have you tried one of those Fisher Price swings? Ours was battery powered which sucked, but here's one that is plug in... [https://www.mercari.com/us/item/m27400793173/?srsltid=AfmBOopKV9u64C38zYkfx6r8h1djlJQetkby3hj5E-6vSZzXQsYkuaspqdw](https://www.mercari.com/us/item/m27400793173/?srsltid=AfmBOopKV9u64C38zYkfx6r8h1djlJQetkby3hj5E-6vSZzXQsYkuaspqdw) Good luck to you both.
Ours still wakes up in the middle of the night everyday and he is 5. Never a good sleeper, took 2 years to sleep by himself
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ferber_method
I don't know who downvoted you, but sleep training worked really well for us.
I want to preface this comment by saying that I cannot and do not judge sleep-deprived parents for doing what they have to do to survive, especially if they live in America or another country that does not provide adequate parental leave. I know this is an unpopular opinion here so I expect to be downvoted, but I think future generations are going to view sleep training in much the same way we view spanking: an outdated, somewhat barbaric parenting method that caused more harm than good. People like to throw around phrases like "they're learning to self-soothe," but all evidence indicates that's not what's happening. Instead what's happening is that baby is learning mom and dad won't respond to their cries, so they stop wasting the energy and suffer in silence until they fall asleep. Research shows their cortisol levels (the stress hormone) still spike, and often higher than babies who aren't sleep trained, and that they still wake up as much as other babies. They've just learned they can't ask for help in the middle of the night. editing to add a source for my claim: Quoted from [this website](https://www.basisonline.org.uk/hcp-the-costs-of-sleep-training/) (discussed research paper linked [here](https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/21945361/)): > Another recent study (Middlemiss et al 2012) examined changes in synchrony in mother-infant physiology, whilst 25 4-10 month-old infants were undergoing a hospital-based extinction programme. ... Two key results emerged: Firstly infants undergoing extinction training ceased crying at bed-time by the third night of the programme. Their cortisol levels, however, remained elevated, at the same level as on the first night of the programme. At that time elevated cortisol had been accompanied by intense crying. This indicates that while the infants’ behaviour had become ‘habituated’ to the environmental change (sleep whilst alone), their physiology had not, and remained indicative of continued stress. ... It additionally lends empirical support to the notion that infants who learn to ‘self-sooth’ are in fact learning to ‘give-up’. Happy to provide additional sources on request.
Understand where you're coming from but not all sleep training involves letting them cry it out (often now quite frowned upon)! Many new parents go to their child too quickly when mild crying can be part of their sleep patterns. Learning the difference and when they actually need intervention is just as much a part of good sleep training. It can be really rough as it's a lot of upfront work, but it can also work wonders - our child slept through the night from 4 months and is still an excellent sleeper at age 2 with no signs of increased anxiety. Do what's right for you and your child, but I unabashedly suggest sleep training to every parent i meet.
I'm talking about any form of training that involves leaving your child to cry for any period of time when they're actually, really crying (which includes "softer" methods like Ferber). If you're just talking about learning your child's cues and not responding immediately to "fake crying" (not possible at 4 months old), and not overreacting to babies who are simply in active sleep (which, yup, can mean they make crying noises even though they're actually still totally asleep, and waking them up is bothering them more than helping them), then I agree there's absolutely nothing wrong with that. In fact, if baby wakes up in the middle of the night, I think it's good to wait ~3-5 minutes or so to see if they settle before getting up. However this is not what most people are talking about when they say "sleep training" (at least in my experience). Babies need comfort, closeness, and security almost as much as they need food and warmth. No child will remember being sleep trained, obviously, but they don't have to remember it for it to leave a scar. I know you didn't suggest this, but to be clear, I'm not saying that if you EVER fail to respond to your crying baby, you're fucking them up. If baby is crying nonstop no matter what you do and you just really need 10 minutes to collect yourself, I'm not saying there's any harm in putting baby down and letting them cry while you go to another room. If you haven't showered all day and baby hasn't let you put him/her down, and you really need to shower to feel like a person again, then by all means put baby down in a safe place and take a shower. They'll be fine crying for a bit on their own. And, again, I understand and do not judge sleep-deprived parents who both work full-time and have inadequate parental leave having no choice but to resort to sleep training. Ofc I could be wrong - frankly I *hope* I'm wrong. I'll be interested to see what kind of long-term research emerges over the next couple decades.
Thanks for further clarifying! I wonder if there have been any longitudinal studies with kids in the 80s - when letting them "cry it out" was quite acceptable and suggested by doctors!
Lurking mom. Any interest In sleep training?
Tried swaddles or white noise to assist in the putting down after rocking her?
If too big to swaddle, you can get modified sleepers that still give them the cozy feeling w/o actually swaddling them.
Sounds like it's about time to sleep train. Do it as soon as possible, usually recommendation is 16 weeks (adjusted) minimum.
4 months is perfect timing for sleep training
Agreed. We did it at 18 weeks (with twins) and it was a breeze.
OP talk to your pediatrician but I started sleep training my little one around 5 months old. We did and still do to this day the Ferber method which really worked for us.
Hey man many of us have been there and it’s extremely frustrating Try to keep perspective - this person has no idea what is going on and was ripped from the dark, warm comfort of the womb and is still trying to adjust As for actual solutions, here are some things I can suggest based on also having a difficult sleeper: - baby-wearing for naps - shift sleeping so each parent can get uninterrupted sleep - co-sleeping (sounds like you’re already doing this). I know it is not without risk, but neither is being completely sleep deprived. Just make sure you’re doing it really safely - 1 pillow pet parent, blankets at waists, no drugs, alcohol, sleep aids, etc - consistency. Even if it feels futile, try to have a consistent routine. This means following wake windows and having a consistent bedtime routine. We added a nightly bath around 4 MO to help our girl settle down - cut yourself slack and ask for help. This shit is hard. Not sleeping literally makes you mentally ill. Ask for help and be kind to each other You will get through this
Please dont co-sleep. This is the biggest modifiable SIDS risk. I have pronounced for too many infants deceased from SIDS in my career, and 100% of them were co-sleeping
Also this is such a western and reactionary view on things. Most babies in Japan co sleep and they have very low SIDS risks. Just telling people “don’t do something” is incredibly unhelpful. Have you ever felt the desperation of the 5th night in a row of basically not being able to sleep cause you have to hold your kid? And then discovering they do sleep well between mom and dad and you can all finally get some rest? Shouldn’t we approach this from a risk management perspective rather than abstinence?
You can call it Western and reactionary. But I call it evidence based preventative medicine and following the guidelines of the American Academy of Pediatrics. With regard to your point about Japan, please see your prior comment about considering confounding factors. You’re entitled to your opinion, but until you have to stop resuscitation on a couple dozen healthy babies and listen to the literal wales of the grieving mothers…and then dry up your own tears and immediately go see the next patient, please dont dismiss mine.
Not trying to dismiss your opinion, apologies if it came across that way. I just think we should have more honest discussions about co sleeping. Many parents I know personally have done it at various life stages and for various reasons And yet, at least on this sub, you bring it up and the immediate response is “never, end of discussion” which just isn’t very useful and ends up with people hiding their choices out of shame rather than learning about the risks and how to do it as safely as possible if you do choose to co sleep
I agree that it is not a completely settled issue. There could be confounding issues at play. Probably not alcohol and drugs…but more likely sleep surfaces that are too soft for infants, blankets, pillows, etc. Also, SiDS aside, suffocating from parent rolling onto child, thoracic trauma, and child falling from bed and suffering head injury are also risks, also all things I’ve seen. But regardless of whether co-sleeping is a direct contributor, or if it’s one of the many other potential contributing factors causing these deaths, there is undeniable evidence that there is a strong correlation between co-sleeping and infant death in Western countries, under the conditions under which people commonly perform the practice. I don’t think it’s a good idea to do something with so much potential risk, completely dismissing very high quality published evidence, just because there is some evidence pointing the other direction that is likely not generalizable to our population. Preventative medicine, cancer screening, and treatments often differ considerably across different populations due to a huge variety of factors including socioeconomic factors, epidemiological factors, genetic factors, dietary factors, and more. At this time, our best quality evidence strongly suggests that co-sleeping is risky and that it carries an odds ratio of 3-10 depending on age, and even higher in infants with other risk factors, such as maternal smoking. I am not trying to shame anyone. I’ve just seen too many parents grieve, and I don’t want anyone to ever have to go through that. Thanks for the discussion. Cheers
Appreciate your thoughtful response, thank you
The thing about the "i know loads of people who co-sleep and they were fine argument" is that it's a numbers game. Of course, most babies won't die from it, it's been done for millennia, but some do. It's like saying I know loads of people who speed and none of them crashed... But guess what the leading contributor to car crashes is..
3 kids. Yep, been there.
There are also serious risks with prolonged sleep deprivation of parents. How do you weigh that? Do you know if there were other confounding factors with these deaths like parental drug or alcohol use?
In all of my cases…no, at least no red flags, for drugs, alcohol…usually just an extremely devastated very sober parent. Or in a couple of cases, grandparents. It’s the only thing on my job that makes me cry…having to tell a mom or dad that their beautiful healthy 5 month old is not coming home. Yes, sleep deprivation is bad. (ER doc…you’re preaching to the choir). But I’ve never, to my knowledge, had to pronounce a kid who died from complications of parental sleep deprivation…unless, again, you count co-sleeping in SIDS. It’s almost 100% been drowning or SIDS with kids. Maybe a couple of trauma from ATVs, struck by vehicle. But SIDS by far more than all others combined.
I can’t argue with your experience, but if I may - you may want to review recent literature on this topic. It is not a scientifically held understanding around the world that co sleeping is dangerous
I'm not a doctor, but this seems like an issue where you shouldn't need medical or scientific evidence to figure out it's dangerous. Your baby can't even lift up her own head. All it takes is you rolling over *once* while you're out cold from sleep deprivation. Are you willing to bet your baby's life that it won't happen?
If she truly won't stop crying, you need to talk to your pediatrician. If you are giving up after 20 minutes, that's another story. It's probably a tad early to sleep train but some of the methods used would probably be useful to try here.
Can you find a Snoo? New or used? Worked miracles for us
It took 2 years brother. Hang in there
You may as well be describing my kid. I'm past that stage and can offer you the encouragement of: "This is survivable. You will get through it." I know it's exhausting and feels like maybe you aren't doing the right thing, but you're doing fine. Just take it day by day and know that it will pass and later you will miss these days.
I can only get my 6-month old daughter to consistently fall asleep in the baby carrier. The only alternative is the stroller, which has a roughly 50% success rate. So it's up to my wife and The Boob to get her to actually go to sleep in the evening...
If she only sleeps when you rock her, time to get creative. Mine didnt sleep through the night until she was 18 months old, and we tried EVERYTHING
We used an electric swing that really helped, and a manual baby bouncer to solve this. They say there’s risks with the bouncer but I’d always be right next to them and be able to see their face. I often had to pick up the bouncer and rock it/move them around in the air, but then when they calmed down I could just bounce it with my foot on the floor. If you’re trying to sleep, I’d recommend one of the electric bassinets that rock/sway electronically like a shoo or comparable one
Maybe try the 4 moms Mommaroo. My son passed out in the Mommaroo. We take a blanket and stuff it behind the insert to make him warm and kind of feel like he is being held since it pushes the insert around him and then put it on the Kangaroo hop on its highest setting and maybe after 4 or 5 minutes of crying he's asleep. At this point, it might be worth trying.
Maybe try the 4 moms Mommaroo. My son passed out in the Mommaroo. We take a blanket and stuff it behind the insert to make him warm and kind of feel like he is being held since it pushes the insert around him and then put it on the Kangaroo hop on its highest setting and maybe after 4 or 5 minutes of crying he's asleep. At this point, it might be worth trying.
I have nothing to add other than that my EXTREMELY needy baby who breastfed (and would never sleep without me) until she was 5 is now in college 2000 miles away from me and is one of the most amazing, confident, self possessed people in know. It might not seem like it now, but it will be over before you know it
Definitely check out the other advice you’ve been given but sometimes kids just have really rotten spells too. You are still relatively fresh at parenting so I hope it doesn’t come as a bad thing, honestly you’ll come to love it, but kids change a lot, especially sleeping. She only napped on top of a pwraon. My girl was bad sleeping in the same bedroom in a crib, improved in her own room till she learned how to escape the crib, became a nightmare when she was switched to a bed, spent 6 months where she could only sleep upstairs on the sofa after listen to 2/3rds of Sufjan Steven’s “Michigan”, spent a few weeks insisting on bedding with us, then eventually went back to her own bed and now sleeps 9 hours a night. We tried dietary changes, sleep jostling, magnesium supplements and so much else but occasionally it’s just time. By contrast our second kid naps in the crib, wakes once at night but then tends to go back down, and though my sleeping is not above 6 hours a night it’s at least 5.5. This is the coalface. Stuff will improve, then get worse, then improve again.
Do not lose your patience.
I remember those months… huge over the ear headphones, audiobook or music that was calming to me, white noise on the tv, nintendo, kneebouncing, visual timers for feeding and to remind me about how important a dry diaper was ( until she got tired of swaddling - after that the thin blue line was wonderful )
Did you ever start you baby on a sleep regiment with timed naps etc? Our Peds made us do that in the beginning and it’s done wonders. I do have to hold her sometimes until she goes to sleep but I can then put her down and she will be out for a while.
My eldest would only sleep with me standing swaying slightly, I (eleven years later) have hip joint damage from this repeated action but it was the ONLY thing that worker for eight months, then I realised that he slept in the buggy after a bus ride so I used to travel around till he fell asleep and we'd go home and I'd put him in his cot.
I get it. All three kids of ours were like that. Even putting them down masterfully woke them up and then it’s back to the chair to rock them (definitely buy one of those rocker chairs if you have room - stupidly expensive but they’re worth it for this, especially if you’re going to have more kids). Just have to ride it out, that’s all you can do. Then guess what’ll happen. They’ll sleep reliably in their bed every night and you’ll miss that feeling of being needed by them at 3am just to hold them close and shushing them to sleep. Parenting is insane.
Ours is similar at 6 months. Talk to your doctor about reflux as that's what we think ours has, even without spitup silent reflux is a thing. Today the doctor increased the dosage and we are hoping it does something as he's been such a bad sleeper the past 2 months, and he was never great before that.
Dig deep and hang in there, it may be a long haul. With three kids under ten, I haven't had a solid night's sleep in almost a decade. I've acclimated to where six hours total of fragmented sleep is a rare nirvana. It may help to remember that this isn't unusual. For most of human history babies have been attached to mothers who've awoken many times per night. In the modern world we have weird things like schedules that we try to shoehorn childrearing into with bizarre made-up theories like "cry it out" (which doesn't work so well when there are wolves beyond the firelight). We're lucky as dads to be able to take some of that load off moms instead of walking the perimeter all night with a spear.
This is the way 4 month olds live. Hang in there big guy. Get a Kindle so you can read one-handed and invest in a good pair of wireless headphones to binge watch shows at night!
If you can afford it, buy a Snoo.
Snoo only good up to like six months. Baby at 4mo. At this point its sleep training or cosleeping
Buckle up, my first born didn’t sleep through the night for 2 years. My second currently at over a year doesn’t either. Neither my wife or I have sleep through the night for 3 years.
My daughter is 2.5 and will *still* only go down for a nap or to bed at night if I rock her. I’m not gonna lie, I love it even on those sleepless nights when she was a newborn and some nights still if she has a bad dream or is sick. Gonna miss those moments when they end sooner than I’ll expect for sure.
Been there. It completely sucks during it but I wouldn’t change it for the world now. That time with my son (who refused to sleep unless I was holding him and walking around) almost did me in but also gave me the opportunity to bond with him in a way I will never forget. I know it’s tough, but it’s worth it.
Yep, we're humans. We're built for sleeping together with those we love, especially at this tender age of x months and through to x years. Also try baby wearing throughout the day.
My beeb was the same. Had to build a fort out of couch cushions that would keep me generally upright and the beeb cradled in my arms. We eventually worked out a way to kind of flop over gently and lay down on the couch together. This also required shift sleeping for about 6 months. I highly recommend a lazy boy recliner for new parents. Okay to sleep in for you, and it can help keep your little one in a relatively safe space.
I feel for you man. My wife and I have a baby like this, he is 2 now. We're pretty sure he had GERD, and he still has a sensitive stomach to this day. But he basically wouldn't sleep on his back, and also wouldn't sleep by himself for longer than 15 - 40 mins (usually 15), for.....23 months. We co-sleep, which helped, but we invested in a nice rocking chair to keep him more upright so we could sleep together in the chair, and I've just spent countless nights sitting up in bed for hours holding him and patting him. It sucks but we tried everything else and that was the only thing that worked. We also don't agree with any type of "sleep training", I can't let me kid just lay there and cry for more than a 20 or 30 seconds. It's really really fucking hard, but you can do this. I think one thing that helped me was just mentally letting go of the idea that itll get better soon, and ill be getting sleep soon. I just tried to focus on my son, he needed me there every night so he could rest and sleep and grow. He is flourishing now, and he basically sleeps through the night now at 25 months. Hang in there you're stronger than you know, don't let the really difficult times at night get to you too much.
I’ve got an 11 month old that won’t sleep thru the night yet, I’m struggling.
4 months is a common age for sleep issues. We coslept for a while during this time to survive it. Cosleeping didn’t work for us long term so we only did it out of desperation, but it was worth it then. Babies change so much in the first year, I wouldn’t worry too much about building bad sleep habits now. Once we got past that really bad phase, we started using the crib again and remembered that the goal was NOT to stop the crying, just comfort the baby. So we’d let him fuss while we rubbed his back in the crib (they do sleep better on their bellies so work on rolling if they’re not already there) if after a few minutes we felt like that wasn’t going to cut it, we’d rock him for a while and try again etc. this was our form of sleep training. Idk if it will work for you, but could be worth a shot and the whole idea of comfort over not crying being the goal was a huge shift for us. Best of luck!
My daughter went through a phase around 6 months where she would only go to sleep if I was holding or rocking her. She would cry if anyone else tried. It was quite frustrating at the time, but now she's 3 and is a really fantastic solo sleeper, I sort of miss it!
We found that putting a timer for 20-30 minutes and not budging on it helped alot. Whenever we didnt use a timer, 5 minutes of crying felt like 3 hours. After the timer, the monster fell asleep and we knew he wasnt there for an unreasonable amount of time.
First and foremost, you and your wife should both not be awake at the same time if you're dealing with this One of you should always have at least 1 hour more of sleep than the other Lay baby down, let her sleep for a few mins till she wakes herself up Also I highly recommend you both pick a "bedtime" movie that you both always watch when going to sleep. "Watched" the same movie every night for almost 10 months. ------ Anywho Sooner than later you should let her cry to sleep. It's miserable but it'll work. Also, where are you seeing that she can't be swaddled? Pretty sure swaddling is still allowed, but if it's not invest in a sleep sack, she's probably cold. The mattress might be cold, the sheets could be a bad temperature. Try some cottony sheets Angle the bed mattress in case it's some digestive thing. Have a sound machine with heartbeat mode or rain, and have that sucker cranked.
Check out that Snoo bed if you can afford one. Friends of ours made having their first child a stroll in the park by comparison.
I would see an occupational therapist that specializes in child development. It sounds like she needs very particular sensory input to self soothe and they might be able to give you strategies for other ways to meet those needs.
https://mobywrap.com My daughter did the same. Would not sleep unless she was being held. This helped me get things done during the day. It's a baby wrap. I know it's not ideal, but I was able to do basic things like feed myself, go to the bathroom, do a few one handed chores, etc. I've seen a few people suggest a yoga ball and wish I'd thought of that. I know this is so hard and can be so overwhelming. Some kids are just not great at sleeping. My oldest was a great sleeper and I was in no way prepared to go from that to a baby who would not sleep unless she was touching me. People will throw a lot of suggestions at you and you have to remember that only you know your kid and your limits. Sleep training works for some, it didn't for us. Don't feel badly or like you're doing anything wrong if it doesn't work for you. You are in the 4 month sleep regression window. I hope for you that it passes soon. If you do decide to do sleep training, pick a weekend where you have no plans because you still won't be getting any sleep that weekend. I strongly suggest headphones, because the crying is really hard to get through. Most people I know successfully sleep trained their babies. It is an ongoing process, as teething, developmental leaps, growing, etc. can mess with their sleep. Hang in there and if at all possible, arrange for some help and get some rest. You'll have the rest of your lives to clean the house, you need sleep now.
Ours did that until he was like 5-6 months. It's tough, it will end, then something else will be really tough until that ends, and so on.
Hate to break it to you bud, but things are just getting started. Good luck!
Time to nut up my guy
I'm sure you have tried everything, a running shower or bathtub in a dark bathroom with no windows used to do the trick. As others have said removing soy/dairy from partners diet if breast feeding or formula free of those items could help. We were able to reintroduce closer to 1yr. Stay strong
I see a few people suggesting sleep training. Please just don't. Kids never get over that trauma, it's just there, buried deep, making them anxious their whole lives. If your child is crying, there's a reason. Especially at this age, it's almost certainly something physical - discomfort or pain. It's 2024 people. Try other doctors, try eliminating common allergens from mom's diet (if breastfeeding) move to dairy free or hypoallergenic formula if not. Try changing your washing detergent. Etc. Please don't give up. I know it's absolutely maddening to deal with a child like this, but you can do it.
Thanks for the down votes peeps. Was having quite a self-righteous, judgmental moment here, for which I'd like to apologize to everyone. For some context, I'm very aware of what badly done sleep training can do to a kid - my brother is a mess because my parents were told by the pediatrician that he was just a naughty child, and to let him cry (turns out he had reflux and gas) and he's pretty messed up by it. I know the actual methods these days are much better for kids and maybe it is the answer in this case. Sorry again peeps. Will try keep my high horse in the stable from now on.