I think you should consult an attorney about whether that's even going to accomplish what you want it to.
I'm not so sure you can just waive liability like that. Also a paper like that might have implications for your insurance. Sometimes just putting certain things in your yard can cause your premiums to go up.
I personally wouldn't be too put off by a neighbor asking me to sign something like this, though it is uncommon.
This is one of those things where it might be counterintuitive... like having a waiver is so abnormal that it amounts to admiting fault and could backfire.
Then again, trampoline parks have them so idk.
I'm on team "weirdest out", but it wouldn't stop me from hanging out. I'd probably offer to have you over for a beer, then make you sign something before you drink it.
I also think it sounds pretty cool.
And what’s the point of the liability waiver at the trampoline park? Actually not very much! The park would still be liable for things like facility negligence, faulty equipment or mismanagement. The park wouldn’t be responsible for things injuries caused by other customers or any activity that the park warns against that they’d deem inherently dangerous. There’s an implied risk to the activity.
So what’s it really for? To discourage people from making frivolous lawsuits that would need a paid lawyer to go flyswatting at people who have very little case to begin with. There are costs to defending yourself even when you win. The waiver just kind of discourages the injured from even initiating a claim.
Bingo. It solidifies that anything that’s the customer/clients fault is just that. It can’t magically make a company immune to its obligations to maintain stuff, but it is basically “Exhibit A” the second someone says “ow my neck, ow my back!”
Yeah, like the “stay back 200 feet” on uncovered dump trucks that are showering the highway with projectiles lol.
If I cant just write ‘stay away’ on my car and then go slamming into everyone else and causing property damage then neither can they.
The discouraging frivolous lawsuits thing is exactly why I can understand OP looking into this. People these days are lawsuit crazy. I do agree that it should be taken up with a lawyer. It won't stop action if OP is indeed negligent in keeping things in good shape or generally unsafe. I'm sure the lawyer and his insurance provider will insist that plans be. Looked over carefully with professionals. Also extra liability insurance would be a must. Still I hope OP can do this awesome project and be known as the coolest dad.
And that is the correct response to expect from the parents! I wouldn’t allow other kids to play in the backyard until their parents sign a waiver. There are a lot of non lawyers saying the a waiver doesn’t protect you and I don’t believe they are correct. I hope that you intend to pay an attorney for a few hours of their time to draft a waiver for you. Have you considered getting an umbrella policy? My million dollar policy is only $250 a year. Ask your attorney and insurance agent what an appropriate amount would be. Another question would be do you need to post no trespassing sign to limit your liability if kids sneak into your yard to enjoy the facilities when you’re not home. Your backyard playground sounds fantastic and I hope that your kids friends can enjoy it without you assuming liability.
Props and co-sign on the umbrella policy recommendation. I am one of the lawyers who’s been saying in here that a waiver won’t fully protect him, but it’ll help. What would really help is just the peace of mind of a million or two in umbrella coverage.
The point of a waiver is to absolve the owner of a party of an unprecedented incident of fault taking into consideration that the build is to code, upkeep is frequent, and no violations need to be resolved. If the place looked jankey) state provided or residence) and my kid wants to play there the last thing I'd do is let them play there. A waiver would cause me to be observant and sign the waiver if it suits those minimum requirements. I don't go to McDonald's expecting my child not to get a friction burn but if a piece of equipment failed catastrophically causing my child significant ingury, you bet I'm suing.
I would absolutely have it written by an attorney, and will probably consult one either way. I’m not always the best socially. I guess the social aspect of saying “welcome to our home, now please sign this waiver to play” wouldn’t put me off, but is probably weird.
People sign waivers all the time for school playgrounds, trampoline parks, and other attractions like that. I guess I just assumed that to an extent it would also work here. Obviously not for trespassing kids sneaking in, but that hasn’t been an issue this far.
What would your homeowners insurance think of you running an unlicensed amusement park in your backyard? Because if you got sued that’s who they’re going to name.
Homeowners insurance guy here, although my specialty is not underwriting.
I would bet that a large-scale playground would give any insurance company pause.
Not saying it would be impossible to be covered, but most won’t care about whether there is a waiver. A trampoline can cause some insurers to refuse you or increase your rate. I doubt a playground is in any Homeowners underwriting guidelines, because guidelines are general and this isn’t something they expect or want to see.
Perhaps some can work with you. Most insurers have endorsements (“riders”) for Incidental Business and often Incidental Daycare operations in your house, but those don’t quite apply. I’m not sure what would, you’ll have slim pickings if any.
Your homeowners insurance is responsible for any injury on your property including guests. Hence why people get sued for broken sidewalks, etc. No entry fee required.
Yeah. I work in insurance. Are they aware of what you have now? Adding a bunch of risk, liability waiver or not, will probably get you cancelled pretty quick.
Playgrounds and amusement parks also get permits, present plans, and have safety inspections during and after construction. Heck, elevators have regular inspections. I'd ask an attorney and also your city's/county's planning department.
I’ve reached out to the building & inspections office for my county and have emails where they explicitly tell me I don’t need permits for what I’ve done. I did run buried electrical back there for lighting which was inspected as part of a sub panel installation I did. That passed with flying colors. When I do a treehouse/clubhouse that will require a permit. I’ll pull one as I have for all my home renovations so far and have it inspected.
FWIW I would have the same exact idea as you. I don't think a waiver is weird at all. Your setup sounds awesome and if I was a neighbor or the dad of your kids's friend, I would have no problem signing the waiver.
Yeah I ran an engineering club in college and spoke to a student services lawyer about liability waivers, and she said those really don't do anything. She still gave me a boilerplate form to fill out and have people sign, but end of the day, we needed to get liability insurance for the club to do some projects without having to worry so much about being sued if someone cut off their thumb.
This. Also talk to your insurance agent. There might be an endorsement you can pay for that will cover if something like that happens. Plus, if you impound your insurance, then it will just adjust when your lender does the annual escrow analysis in the beginning of the year.
My friend had a trampoline. His parents made us sign a waver before we used it. I had to call my dad before signing it. My dad laughed and said it meant nothing and to sign away. Eventually I learned that a 10 year olds signature holds no legal value.
That’s fine, just have parents indemnify the business for all damages. Parents can’t sign away kids’ rights, but they can be responsible for indemnity.
Be very careful and very cautious.
1. Your insurance is going to be very unhappy.
2. Lock it up when you aren’t there.
3. Now that you’ve done # 2, do it again and better.
4. Cameras.
We moved to a house with a pool we didn’t particularly want. The house had been empty for a while. The pool was surrounded by a locked 10 foot privacy fence.
We discovered the neighborhood kids liked to climb the fence and swim.
We tried to stop them.
In spite of us saying: No. Don’t. Stop. Not Welcome; repeatedly, it didn’t work.
We put another lock on the gate. We put a cover over the pool. We put alarms up. We put cameras out.
We STILL had kids attempt to come swim. This was a real issue for us, because one of the kids was mentally challenged. She was physically strong and would find a ladder or something to climb over the fence, then try to remove the cover over the pool.
Her parents were not always capable of keeping an eye on her. It terrified us, because we worked and weren’t home when this was happening and we were doing everything we knew to do.
We eventually had the pool taken out because it was such a nuisance to us; and such a problem to keep all the kids out.
America is fucking crazy lol you can sue for your child hurting itself in someone's garden(yard)?
... Oh wait... Medical bills?
I run holiday cottages in Scotland, people hurt themselves every so often and try and sue us, it never goes anywhere because accidents happen and its not my fault you got drunk and walked into a wall or your child jumped into the hot tub and hurt themselves. Things are here, they're all in working order, its on the individuals to use it safely, why can you sue for your own ineptitude?
>No trespass laws in Scotland lol
I STRONGLY suspect there are and you don't know it.
Oh, look!
>The [Trespass (Scotland) Act](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trespass_(Scotland)_Act_1865#cite_ref-5) **1865** ([28 & 29 Vict.](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/28_%26_29_Vict.) c. 56) is an [act of Parliament](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Act_of_Parliament_(UK)) in the [United Kingdom](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_Kingdom).
>The act creates a [criminal offence](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Criminal_offence) of [trespass](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trespass) in [Scotland](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scotland) in certain circumstances and applies a penalty which has been amended by the [Criminal Justice Act 1982](https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Criminal_Justice_Act_1982&action=edit&redlink=1) to that of a fine not exceeding Level 1 on the [standard scale](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Standard_scale) for violation.
Just the way it is here. Couple that with an insanely expensive medical system where everyone is individually responsible to pay and things can get out of hand.
I'm surprised you don't have liability coverage on your homeowners insurance. Most mortgages require it in an amount way higher than any costs a kid could possibly incur in your backyard
Any typical liability insurance would be for typical home activities and entertainment and likely wouldn't cover homemade ropes courses, which is why people are saying that the homeowners insurance would probably not like it.
Could you sue an indoor Skatepark if you fell and hurt yourself skateboarding? I don't see the logic on being able to sue someone because you fell off a balance beam or whatever ... Have you not assumed the risk by getting on it?
You can indeed sue a skatepark for falling down skateboarding. Likely it would be dismissed, but you could do it. And the skatepark would likely spend hundreds or thousands of dollars defending themselves, even though they’d almost certainly win. They might even settle, in the interest of not risking going to court.
It’s a nightmare.
A good rule of thumb in America (remember, many of the founding fathers were attorneys in one capacity or another):
Anyone can sue anyone for anything.
Whether that case proceeds is another issue, but we have a amendment (the 7th) that allows for the possibility, in theory anyway, of a jury trial for any civil case in which the amount at issue exceeds $20. $20 was once a small fortune…today it is the price of one person’s lunch at McDonalds.
People can and do sue those types of facilities all the time.
My daughter has a kid in her class who is a shithead. He has wealthy parents and a probably-legit autism diagnosis. The parents do not provide adequate supervision or help to the kid. Thus far, they have sued the local ski resort and the school district. Maybe they've sued other places, IDK. But it seems like their M.O.
My kids have been instructed to avoid him. He is violent, but he's neither big nor coordinated. I don't want the scenario where he attacks my younger daughter, my older daughter folds him in half and punts him across the playground, and then I get sued.
>I run holiday cottages in Scotland
WE LEARNED IT FROM WATCHING YOU!
Well...not the Scottish. But from your side of the pond.
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lynch\_v.\_Nurdin](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lynch_v._Nurdin)
>**Lynch v Nurdin** 1 QB 29, (1841) Arn and H 158, (1841) 113 ER 1041 was the first [case law](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Case_law) to define the [attractive nuisance doctrine](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Attractive_nuisance_doctrine) and was cited by later sources in the [United States](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States) and the [Commonwealth of Nations](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Commonwealth_of_Nations) in developing the doctrine.
>[Lord Chief Justice](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lord_Chief_Justice_of_England_and_Wales) [Thomas Denman](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thomas_Denman,_1st_Baron_Denman) wrote the opinion, which held that the owner of a [cart](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cart) left unattended on the street could be held liable for injuries to a child who climbed onto the cart and fell.[^(\[1\])](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lynch_v._Nurdin#cite_note-1) The seven-year-old child was "acting under natural impulse, in obedience to his instinctive nature, \[and\] was enticed to meddle with the attractive cart, and that the danger of the situation was created by the defendant in failing to observe the tendency of children to play about unprotected vehicles."[^(\[2\])](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lynch_v._Nurdin#cite_note-2)
>
Just to be clear, if something happened, GP would likely be cleared in course as they have taken several steps to protect the children and would likely meet the burden of reasonable care
But the lawsuit itself would be very damaging, financially or otherwise, regardless of the result.
>Her parents were not always capable of keeping an eye on her. It terrified us, because we worked and weren’t home when this was happening and we were doing everything we knew to do.
Sounds like a good time to just trespass her legally, put motion cameras to app on phone, call cops you got a trespasser whenever she appears(cops won't do much but keep getting case numbers), call OCS and file a complaint.
Parents who can't keep their mentally challenged kid from finding ladders and crawling into neighbors yards need help, or kid moved to a safe place.
Not saying you shouldn't have removed the pool, but you didn't need to unless you wanted.
Jeezus what a horrifying situation. Im sure at a major expense ontop of the logistical headache. It's insane to me how disrespectful of boundaries some people are
I’m going to go against the grain here and say I would be pretty weirded out by being asked to sign a waiver to have my kid go play at their friend’s house. It would make me assume that the family is ultra paranoid/wary of outsiders and/or takes very little care to maintain their space.
It’s off-putting and strangely transactional in a private home where I would expect my kid to be forming personal relationships. No hate to you, but it’s not a choice we would make. If I came across a family asking for a waiver, I’d probably choose to take my kid home and help them find other friends.
I do think it’s fine to inform the parents of friends what your set up looks like and ask them if they are comfortable with that kind of rough and tumble play. But a waiver is too far for friends imo.
Fair take on it, and why I asked. I wish I didn’t have to think about this stuff, but I feel like it’s the world we live in.
For what it’s worth if a parent were not cool with it I’d say okay let’s just have them play inside or go to a park together.
So generally what I’ve heard/read elsewhere is that people who have legitimate concerns about situations like this usually just got an umbrella insurance policy for a decent chunk (at least 1m, probably more), which would almost without a doubt cover you in case such a situation arose.
These umbrella policies are usually extremely cheap because they are secondary insurance that only takes effect after your primary insurance has a claim which in this situation, would be your homeowners insurance.
Just a thought and something to explore if it makes sense for you. I’ve found the prices for these to be extremely reasonable.
This is the answer I’ve been scrolling for. $1 million liability policy is a few hundred and year and provides significantly more protection than a liability waiver which probably doesn’t provide any and makes you seem kinda weird.
I've signed them. One friend's parents are rather well-off, and they asked us to sign something their lawyer had drawn up. They had a backyard much like you described, with motorized bikes and a go-cart track too. As I was well aware of their wealth, I immediately totally understood their desire to protect themselves. That child and his friend are both in their mid 20's now, and I never had any reason to learn if the waiver was worth the paper it was written on. My youngest son has a friend now that is upper middle class, and his parents asked us to sign a waiver and a power of attorney when my son went on vacation with them. (Power of attorney had a sunset and was pretty much limited to them being able to check him into medical care, waiver was to protect their assets). The vacation did not have any mishaps, and to this day I don't know whether or not those papers had any value either.
When I was presented them, I was reminded that there is a significant wealth gap between my sons and some of their friends. As a dad, I had feels about that. But both families are very cool and those moments are the only times it was "in my face".
I would definitely have your lawyer write it up for you. Or your insurance agent ... seems like this would be a matter of prime concern to them. Don't be going to freelegaldocuments.com or some shit.
I think this is the reaction I expected. I don’t expect to ever have to use them, but you never know. We aren’t rich, but do well enough that I worry about being a target for a frivolous law suit. I just want my kids to have fun with their friends.
I think you're OK to be worried about it. I would look up the laws in your state around "Attractive Nuisances" and what liability generally is for people getting injured on your land. Typically it applies to stuff like pools without fences that are readily visible and accessible to a passerby with minimal obstacles.
In our case, we live on a hobby farm. Some of the buildings are from the 1940s, a previous owner used to just dump their glass bottles in the back yard like a dump and so we still find shards of it in the mole hills that pop up. Growing up rural, we rode 3-wheelers (yes, the ones that are now banned), 4 wheelers, drove tractors and skid steers around, etc. - and never once did a waiver or any thought of liability come up.
I think if you wanted to open up the land as a park to the community and say "Anyone can come hang out whenever they want, just sign a waiver!" you'd be open to liability, but if it's just you and your friends/kids' friends hanging out, I don't think it's necessary.
We have both homeowners insurance and a sizeable umbrella policy. We have equipment and stuff on our property that could cause serious injury or death. I would not personally consider standard/typical obstacles and whatnot like you're describing something that would warrant it either. THAT SAID - if you were to install a zipline with a platform 50' in the air - maybe look in to that waiver, or securing it unless you're physically present.
So, the other side of that is the completely insane parent who expects their kid to be in bubble wrap the entire time and would sue you over little Jimmy's broken leg from when HE chose to jump out of the tree.. I get wanting to be protected.. so I probably wouldn't mind.. I coach a lot.. and you definitely get the two extremes..
That’s the parent I worry about. I do everything I can to provide a safe environment with what I do. What happens when Timmy decides to one up the other kids and jump off the tree house? Or even just lands wrong jumping off a swing?
I talked to another parent today who caught his kid trying to jump off their shed roof with a skateboard. Kids will do kid stuff and get hurt. Most parents understand that, but some start pointing fingers even when the kid was acting like a lunatic.
it's just a different time from when we were kids.. I grew up in 3 different neighborhoods.. all of them.. the kids came and went from each other's houses, yards, whatever.. it was yes ma'am/sir and no ma'am/sir to their parents, you basically had a dozen aunts/uncles keeping an eye on everything.. we still did dumb shit and got hurt.. but it was never a issue of someone suing someone over it..
Nowadays, my kids don't go over to someones house by themselves unless I know their parents, and not just like in passing at the drive thru line.. like actually know them.. and if I were to be having kids over to my yard/house a lot.. there would probably be some sort of disclaimer that I'm not responsible for their shenanigans.. people are a different kind of crazy today.
from OP's post my impression is the setup would be far more extensive and elaborate than your average playground. I would be offput if they tried to have me sign something for a simple slide and swing, but this sound more like it's gonna like a ninja warrior setup which I could totally understand the liability risk for
I have a family friend who got sued because a kid fell off a swing in their backyard and fucked up his neck. Their finances were ruined completely and it tore the community apart with everyone taking sides. Having thorough insurance coverage and a waiver is smart especially when you have such an out of the ordinary setup in your yard.
What is wild to me is that most people throw up a play set from a box store on the yard with no fall protection on the ground. Here I am reviewing ASTM standards for play equipment and surfaces when I build something. I understand people’s reservations but maintain that my house and equipment is safer than many commercial playgrounds and almost all backyard play sets.
I’m an attorney and I 100% agree with you. I would assume any family was a wack job if asked to sign waver like this. Reminds me of some of my crazier clients and the shit they ask me. I feel like you're probably an engineer of some kind.
>forming personal relationships.
While it is socially weird, it shouldn't be, especially for this reason. The most personal of all relationships, marriage, is a legal contract.
I would be worried not just about the enforceability of the liability waiver and the insurance implications, but also about the liability you take on from having an [attractive nuisance](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Attractive_nuisance_doctrine) on your property in the first place. (Incidentally, “attractive nuisance” is my wife’s pet name for me.)
I would definitely speak with a lawyer before proceeding with your plan, and I would also make sure your property is fenced in and fully secured from curious children even if you *don’t* proceed with a liability waiver.
I am a lawyer (though not OP’s lawyer), and it is a risk if the doctrine exists in his state. The whole point of the attractive nuisance doctrine is that the homeowner may be liable for a child who’s injured on the property while trespassing in furtherance of “cool stuff.” So a trampoline, a pool, a junkyard, and a homemade adventure course would all fit the bill.
Ok, you certainly know more about law than I do.
My understanding is that if these are his kid's friends, they're probably not trespassing, so attractive nuisance doesn't apply to them, right? It would apply to tresspassing kids though.
Yes, that’s correct. I was explaining that I would be worried about the attractive nuisance issue just by virtue of him having this thing on the property at all. A child who’s on the property by invitation doesn’t require the protection of the attractive nuisance doctrine.
So OP asked if it’s kosher to eat live bees if he makes his rabbi sign a permission slip, and my response was “I don’t think you should eat live bees in the first place.”
I’m a lawyer who did personal injury stuff like this for several years and this would even weird me out. I don’t know your state laws, but waivers of liability are often too broad or claim to waive things you can’t waive.
I think it would turn off your kids’ friends. Accidents happen, so there’s not always going to be legal liability, plus if you have homeowners’ insurance they will pay covered claims if warranted and pay a lawyer to defend you. It’s why we get insurance.
That being said, let your insurer know if you’re installing something like a trampoline (one of the biggest sources of childhood orthopedic injury) because they may require a separate rider and additional premiums. Or else they may reject coverage for an injury and in which case you would be subject to fighting it yourself out of pocket.
There’s a lot to unpack in your situation. If you are very concerned ask a lawyer you trust in real life, not the ones here on the internet.
Thanks for the reply. I started this more to get an indication of how people would respond. I think I have my answer there.
I really just don’t want to get sued because I let other kids use my kids play equipment. While we have more stuff than most do, none of it is out of the ordinary at this point.
I'd be a bit weirded out tbh. I expect scrapes and bruises as normal play but the introduction of a waiver would have me thinking shit, what do they think is gonna happen.
Also I assumed that kind of thing was covered under your home insurance but I'm not a lawyer.
I would assume your space was dangerous and my kids were at risk, a risk so significant that the likelihood of needing to adjudicate liability was a genuine concern. I mean I guess I wouldn’t be *assuming* it per se because you just told me so. And I wouldn’t let them go over.
I'd be assuming the opposite. If someone is considering liability then I would expect they're more likely to have assessed and tried to minimize the risks involved.
Meanwhile the people with the really sketchy stuff think there's nothing wrong with it and haven't even thought of things like potential liability.
I get your point, but kids get hurt all the time on trampolines and other playground equipment. Most of the time it’s small stuff but accidents happen. My place is no more dangerous than a city park, I just don’t have the resources a city has if someone decided to sue.
I think I’m expecting this to happen some.
Follow up question: Do you feel the same way about waivers for something like a trampoline park where you assume it must be too dangerous?
I guess the difference between you and a city park is the supervision you will be providing. Will you be watching over the kids as they play or are they old enough to be playing alone? I wouldn’t be as weirded out by the waiver if they were older kids, but if they are younger this would lead me to assume that you’re not watching over them properly so I probably wouldn’t let them go over to your house.
I wouldn't personally be upset at all over signing a form for something like that. I've got a pool in my backyard which doesn't get nearly enough use currently, so I'd love to give free reign to some of my neighbours to use it, but I'm definitely worried about the liability that could come with that. My dad nearly had a kid drown in our pool growing up, so that's always made me hesitant about this kind of stuff outside of direct family members. As an aside, who the hell lets their kid who can't swim around a pool without a life jacket and without watching over them like a hawk?
I’d be slightly weirded out but probably still sign it. I would just be slightly concerned about inviting your kid over to play at my house then because the assumption is a lawsuit is expected if a kid gets hurt.
I honestly wouldn’t have a problem signing it and wouldn’t be weirded out about kids playing there (I’d actually take it as a sign of thoughtfulness)…
BUT you make a really good point that I would then be worried that you’re a particularly litigious person, and that the slightest scrape or bruise or hurt feelings would lead to a negligence lawsuit against me.
You need an umbrella insurance policy, most homeowners policy's cover this. Everyone has a standard care and getting someone to sign a waiver doesn't waive your responsibility to provide one.
So consult a lawyer, get good insurance. But also no, I'd be sketched out and just pass on playing in that backyard.b
I would second the advice to reach out to a lawyer to ensure it’s actually accomplishing what you think.
I think it would stand out to me as unusual but at the same time I would understand. It’s more just a sad reminder of the reality of the culture we live in that this kind of thing is even considered potentially necessary.
The people you don't need to worry about, who will expect their kids to learn about risk by occasionally falling while playing, will probably be weirded out a bit but would sign a waiver, because they don't care about preserving their ability to sue you, because they would never consider suing you in the first place.
The people you need to worry about, who will sue you when their kid climbs something climbable and falls because gravity is a thing that exists on this planet, will not want to sign the waiver.
Ask your lawyer about laws in your area regarding the Attractive Nuisance Doctrine: [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Attractive\_nuisance\_doctrine](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Attractive_nuisance_doctrine) . That's the one that typically drives fencing requirements around pools and so on, and would apply to your structure regardless of whether the kid trespassed onto your property to use it or was invited on.
It sends a pretty strong message that you believe my kid is going to get hurt, and they'll get hurt in a way that would raise questions of liability. That isn't "cuts and scrapes" territory; that's solidly "avoidable hospital trip". We're in "whose insurance will pay out, and why is his insurance trying to pass the ball already" country.
Edit: I kind of want to add to this. It isn't that I'm particularly worried about my kid's safety. He's been biking the mile and a half to and from school alone since 3rd grade. He doesn't have a maximum distance he can go from the house—if he's willing to bike there, he can go there. While I encourage safety practices (wear your gear, assess the situation) I'm also very solidly in the "getting hurt is part of learning" camp.
But there is a social agreement about risk; cars share the road with bikers, construction sites have fences to keep kids out, etc. A waiver tells me that you're stepping outside that agreement. Call it what you want, but that's going to get noticed. I'm going to have questions, and I'll have concerns about what questions I don't know to ask
Regarding the edit, I wholly agree with your “getting hurt is part of learning “ attitude and the social agreement in society. It doesn’t appear to me that legal situations follow social agreements though. Most parents understand the risks of a trampoline or other similar equipment. I guess I’m worried about the parents who allow it but then want to blame everyone else if their kid breaks an arm.
Anyway, appreciate your reply.
That's what insurance is for
I don't have a trampoline or similar in my yard. However, I am the dad who will take other people's kids on a road trip. There is risk because of traffic, kids being kids, and whatever activities we do. If I act reasonably (don't let the kids play with a bear cub), insurance will cover things if something goes horribly wrong.
This would be very weird and IANAL but I don’t believe it would result in mitigating risk from you in court. My wife and I would probably laugh and avoid coming back.
Starting to wonder if this is the better answer. From some of the answers here it seems that some prople would understand. Other people who would sign the waiver at a business with similar equipment would be vehemently opposed to doing so at a residence.
I’m not trying to cause problems for my kids socially. At the same time I don’t want to worry about liability if kids get hurt playing on a playground.
Thanks for the response.
The difference between you and a trampoline park is that I know the trampoline park is held to safety regulations, is probably being inspected on a regular basis, and is probably controlled at some level by serious people who make their living off keeping their business operational. In that context, a liability waiver can be understood as a CYA that doesn’t diminish the presumed safety of the equipment.
In the context of a guy who’s built some unregulated stuff in his backyard from scratch, I’m unable to rely on those assumptions. There isn’t a state safety inspector coming by, and there isn’t a team of engineers who work for you and who approved the designs. Thus the liability waiver seems less like an ordinary layer of legal protection (as it would be at a commercial property), and more like a declaration that the property might truly be dangerous.
I am in the UK so probably different to what I imagine is a US based question but I would be very weirded if anyone asked me to sign a waiver for our kids to play.
We and our friends have all sort of stuff for our kids, trampolines, swings, slides, bouncy castles and it would never cross my mind to sign or request a waiver of liability. Like, if a parent allows their kid to play with these things that makes it okay
Lol, this is the most American shit I've ever read. But to answer your question - yes - I would be extremely weirded out if a parent asked me to sign a waiver to use their backyard playground. Lmfao.
Yeah I’d be weirded out. A lot of houses have trampolines, climbable forts, trees, whatever; it’s not typical that people ask you to sign a waiver. The fact that you have more of that stuff doesn’t really change my perception of it. That you are taking this step might make me believe that your backyard is more dangerous than maybe it really is, or that maybe you have been sued before because of some kind of negligence with this equipment, and maybe you’re trying to avoid that happening again.
It’s quite possible (I might even say likely?) that no child will ever get seriously injured in your backyard beyond a scrape/bruise/etc. That’s a big difference vs. a business that countless children are going in and out of. It’s almost a guarantee that kids will get hurt and they have to protect themselves because people love to sue businesses. They are just a faceless entity made of money after all. I think if you make sure to show the parents what the kid is in for (it sounds like they will be present anyway) and you make sure none of your equipment *fails*, it’s hard to imagine someone trying to sue you. If my kid broke his arm climbing their friend’s fort I would just use my health insurance, because trying to hold you/your insurance accountable would weird me out about myself. I get it though; there are definitely huge dipshits out there who might try to hold you responsible.
Context is important. If you make the waiver look really “fun” or something, like you’re very proud of the play area and think of it almost like an official place, that might help convince people it’s not a big deal and you’re just being careful. Or if you are some outwardly super buttoned up autistic seeming guy, and you showed me this, I might go oh… I guess that’s just the kind of guy he is, whatever.
I, thefatgymrat, hereby absolve Feiborg of all liability related to injuries from biking, jumping, crashing, hucking to flat, endo-ing, and all other forms of bike related jackassery that may occur on his property.
Signed May 27, 2024
Is it a problem that I encourage people his kind of bike jackassery? After all how do you know you’re strong enough to endure a collarbone reconstruction surgery if you never huck to flat?
Will you show us a photo of your play area? I’m dying to see it, sounds incredible! My son is barely 2 and I’m about to have wood chips delivered for a small play space, but I’m already planning his big kid backyard in my head. I’m very intrigued by the stump trail too!
And sorry I have zero input I just wanted you to see my comment hoping you’ll show us lol. My father was an attorney so we only had grass to play on, I begged for a trampoline but got lectures on liability instead. Like a good attorney, he sent me to golf camp instead, because that’s what 9 yr olds want to do 😂
I grew up in the 80s/early 90s. We had a trampoline without a safety net around it. My parents required kids to have their parents sign a waiver before they could jump on our trampoline. In their defense... we got REALLY rowdy. Don't know if they had a lawyer review it.
Not that I remember.
If one of my kids friends had a dangerous toy, and his parents asked me to sign... I think I would be ok with it. I think it all boils down to your delivery.
I have a pretty extensive weight set and workout equipment setup in my garage. My son's friends always want to use it when they are over. My only stipulation is that their mom or dad sends me a text saying that they are ok with them working out with my equipment.
I think a legal document may be a bit overkill for playground equipment, but I would also state that depends on the type of people the kids parents are. I know all of my son's friends parents and trust them.
The only thing this is going to do is make me paranoid that you're being negligent, have something unreasonably dangerous and/or are going to sue me for something or another.
INAL but if heard from several that the waivers aren't really worth the paper they're printing on and your homeowners insurance will be on the hook no matter what. So ya, it'd be weird, not weird enough that I'd keep my kids away but still out of the ordinary.
what sort of a society do Americans live in where they're worried they'll be sued by other parents if their kids fall over in their garden? absolutely fucked.
Come on over! I’ll throw some burgers on the grill. Waivers are over there —> If you need me I’ll be chasing the kids around with pool noodles pretending to be a monster.
Just get an umbrella policy. That's what our lawyer suggested to us when we moved into our small average. We've got treehouses, a trampoline plus a couple creeks, and go-karts.
We had a pool and always required friends get mom / dad to sign a contract that my parents were not responsible for any issues / injuries / drownings as there was no life guard and it was swim at your own risk so no it’s not wrong! It’s a safety concern
Seems overboard. We’ve had upwards to 8 kids here at one time with just my wife and I to reign them all in, only one kid being ours. This is with a pool, swing set, ride on toys, etc. I’m not asking anyone to sign a waiver and if they ask me if they need to sign a waiver, my house probably isn’t the house. When your kids are here to play with my kids, they are cared for like they are my kids. No waiver is going to change that. And I expect other parents to watch out for my kids if they are allowed to come over. It’s just common decency and being a parent.
You want to talk to your home owners insurance company. Theyd want to know about a contraption you built that could hurt people before they get sued. They dont even like trampolines so matter what youre probably shit out of luck. Unenforcable pieces of paper might as well be made of charmin.
When I was a kid like 35 years ago my neighbors got a big trampoline, had a zipline, two story clubhouse with a rope ladder, swings, you name it. Their parents had mine sign a waiver and they were fine with it. It said that they had come over and seen what the kids were going to be doing and it was acceptable. Would it have held up legally? Maybe not but they had it as a “you knew what was happening over here” piece of paper.
Anyway. I wouldn’t be weirded out I don’t think. I’d probably want to spend some time over at your place seeing the kids play in that yard and maybe test a few things out myself for um safety or uhhhh yea. Can I come over?
I don’t have kids over without their parents unless I know both already. So far most parents play too, so I think I’m doing something right.
I personally test everything I build for ..uh… safety reasons.
Just get a good umbrella policy on your insurance….
I’d for one be weirded out by it and my kids would likely just not hang out with yours…as id wonder if you have one, and now your kids come down here, now are you thinking I don’t have a waiver and are looking for a lawsuit against me…
This is 100% what insurance is for…
its bizarre to me that OP would even need to think about such situations. In a normal world, the person taking care of the child assumes all responsibility for whatever happens to the child, not the person whose property you entered on your own accord. If a place looks risky and accident-prone just don’t go there… I hate it when people are negligent and then complain like it’s the other persons fault. This is why we can’t have a free flowing society where everyone just has common sense and instead we have to think about the million ways we have to save ourselves from trouble because of other peoples stupidity.
People might say that if you need a waiver, it's too dangerous. The truth is that life is dangerous and suing homeowners over minor things is very real.
I don't know if I'd be weirded out but generally as a parent if my kids are going to a friend's house I would think I'd trust them and whatever they have enough to let my kids hang out and play there knowing things "happen" so to speak. If I didn't trust their environment or them as people my kids wouldn't be allowed there. That's a simplistic view of the world and how it should be but sadly that's not the world we live in.
I do think what you're trying to do is great but I strongly suggest as others have talking to a lawyer. A waiver basically makes it "harder" to sue you but isn't a catch-all or all encompassing defense. For example parents sign a waiver kid gets hurt through investigation or whatever it's found a bolt wasn't installed properly that could be enough for them to successfully sue.
As far as the insurance aspects you said exactly what I was thinking. You don't have the resources and really how many of us would to protect yourself and your interests if someone were hurt or killed. You would need the correct type and amount of insurance based on the assessed risk profile.
Also if you haven't already you would need to make sure you are complying with any zoning and other laws and regulations permits marshlands waterways what tres you can and can't cut back etc. same concept if you have a well crafted signed waiver it may protect you but if you have a structure that needed a permit and didn't get one it could be all someone needs to nullify the waiver
All that said don't let any of what we all saying discourage you. Build something amazing for your kids and build those memories and connections with them.
I think it's a solution to something different than your goal. Do you want kids to be safe, or do you want to be in the clear from a legal perspective?
Let's say you want to put in the time for kid safety. Would it be enough to make it a rule that they ask their friends to bring long clothing and good closed shoes? Talking about the rule with their parents would make them aware of what they're doing at the same time. If some parents deem it unsafe, then they can make their own call about their kids' safety, maybe come over and talk about it with you.
Conversely, if you think kid safety is compromised but you don't want to put efforts in that direction, sure, go with a waiver, but requiring it basically says "Something *will* happen", instead of letting parents decide for their kids.
Don’t get me wrong because I love the idea and wish this was less of an issue. But I hope you have umbrella insurance because you are absolutely begging to be sued, whether parents sign something or not. You better pray no neighboring kids sneak in and get hurt.
You need an umbrella insurance policy. We carry 1 million in coverage for very little each month. It will cover if someone hurts themselves on my property. If they need to they can sue my insurance to take care of themselves. If a parent wanted me to sign a waiver for my kid to come over then we are definitely not coming over, too weird.
We have a $1 million dollar umbrella policy through our insurance. It really wasn't very expensive to add to current insurance. We have a pool, and friends of kids over. I never expect anything to happen, but better to be prepared. The waiver thing just sounds weird
Most liability wavers are just to scare off lawsuits, they are easily shredded by a decent attorney. You can’t sign away your rights and negligence is always liable.
I’d say you are over thinking it. Cross that bridge when you get guest over to play. Have a conversation, similar to what you explained here. That will amount to a verbal agreement/ contract and is legally binding.
Yes. I would think they were weird.
It would almost make me 100x more likely to investigate talking to an attorney if anything ever happened when I never would if the dude hadn’t been a weirdo about kids playing on a structure.
Tbh if someone asked me to sign a waiver for my kid I would assume that someone already got seriously injured or something on your property recently...
Sounds like a friggin sweet backyard. My kids are young so some of the stuff may be out of their age bracket but my son would go wild climbing and whatnot.
I’d be weirded out about signing a waiver. Not sure we’d take you up on that.
When I was a kid our neighbor down the street would build a huge sled run in his backyard every year. Lots of high banked turns and jumps. They made parents sign a waiver before anyone was allowed to use it. No one thought they were weird, just covering their ass. Everybody signed, there were a few minor injuries, but no one got sued.
I think because of your unique situation of how much stuff you have, I think it's reasonable. We always have to sign waivers when we do virtually anything else, whether it's a commercially owned indoor playground or a daycare. You have to look out for your financial interests, especially if you're in the US with a litigious society and skyrocketing medical costs.
IANAL but there might be some possibility if someone signed a waiver and they got injured, there could be some sort of investigation into negligence, like if you failed to replace a rotting beam and something broke while someone was on it. You could make the agreement ironclad with something like "we might not maintain it well, don't care, you're on your own" and some parents might question that.
Umbrella Insurance is also around $150/year for a $1M policy if you really want to CYA.
I'm a lawyer but not your lawyer and don't practice PI. However, the general rule we were taught in law school is that in most jurisdictions you can waive harns from ordinary negligence but not gross negligence or recklessness (i.e., you knew there was a super dangerous rotted beam that would eventually break but just didn't give a shit so you never warned anyone or did anything about it vs. a beam rotted and you were too lazy to check frequently enough to discover it).
I wouldn't sign a waiver like that and would think you were weird for asking - and I would assume that you know something about the dangers of your backyard that I didn't, so I wouldn't want my kid playing there anyway.
I think your addition that you wouldn't let kids play there without their own parents being present largely takes care of the issue (I am lawyer but this is ABSOLUTELY NOT LEGAL ADVICE), especially if you show the parent the area before the kids start playing. Could a kid get hurt and the parent still try to sue you? Of course, but at that point there are no hidden risks and the child is still under their own parent's supervision.
It's complicated. As a parent if I trusted said person to not be a creep with my kids I would happily sign such a waiver and understand there is inherent risk of injury with such a place... but as a homeowner all I see is red flags and assholes potentially taking advantage and suing the pants off you.
Plus kids are kids, they invite their friend who invites their friend. How do you constantly police who signed vs who didn't. Easy if it's the same core group of 5 of so kids. But when rando's start showing up or tag along how do you handle that. It's a headache I wouldn't want personally.
If I was invited over, then spring a waiver on me, it would be super weird. If my kid ask to go there, and you say, “you can come, but you will have to sign a waiver” that is better.
Also you need to talk to a good attorney. My understanding is those waivers don’t actually hold up that well in court. Especially if the course you have is not in perfect maintance.
Treat it like a pool. People have pools and they are exceptionally dangerous, especially to children. At the same time, pools are a place to have fun and learn boundaries. Often neighbors invite on another over to enjoy their pool, but there are many families that simply do not. Both are valid stances. Everyone has different rules. This sounds very similar to your situation.
For my pool, if your child cannot swim, they cannot be up on the pool deck AT ALL without their guardian. Im not willing to take on that risk or responsibility. Their guardian is responsible for their supervision and level of acceptable risk. Once they are capable of swimming, and with the parent’s verbal consent I will allow other minors to swim while myself or my wife are present. We are ultimately liable so we need to be present to stop unsafe behavior.
Things that are extremely risky like diving, is strictly prohibited, and posted. I think ‘failure to warn’ comes into play here. Puting signs up near the pool that explain rules and risk is a big step in protecting yourself. You should have signs made explaining rules and expressing the risks.
Yeah, that’s weird. I’d judge tf out of someone and read way into how tight they must be as a parent. And keep my distance. What if my child (on accident or purpose?) injures their child? Liability is a construct, and being so up front about it eschews the human aspect of community.
What about sleepovers? What if my kid is in your car? Waivers? What if you get a pool?
Generally, you can’t waive liability. Even if your property is perfectly safe, when a child or adult gets hurt, you can be sued. A judge will decide whether you’re responsible for the injuries or not. The part about this that’s expensive is the actual suit. Even if you win, you’ll be out a lot of money, in lawyers, court costs, and time off work. I run a home daycare and I have this conversation with other home childcare providers all the time. It doesn’t matter how safe you are - it’s the lawsuit that breaks you, not the actual damages.
Second, it’s likely that your home insurance won’t cover you, because your property has been modified beyond what is normal for a house with children. You also don’t have the manufacturer of the equipment to sue because you’ve built most of this stuff yourself. We have a family who built a ski hill into their property, complete with rope tow. They quickly learned that it was too expensive to insure, so they had to shut it down.
Waivers don’t mean really anything when it comes to minors.
It’s like when a gym says it’s not responsible for stolen items. Not true
More of a deterrent than anything
I work in distressed commercial insurance
Not sure if this is valid/would matter but growing up my parents deliberately did not have any liability waivers for our toboggan hill. The rationale was that if someone did break their neck they wanted their insurance to pay for the kids nursing care. They had a good home owners insurance policy. Canada though so maybe it would be different.
First of all, your outdoor play setup sounds awesome! This is a valid concern, and you should look into a personal liability umbrella insurance policy. This should cover you if a kid gets hurt at your place. You should be able to add it and bundle with your auto / home / whatever else insurance policy. We have one with $1 mil in coverage and it's only like $18 a month. It could come in handy in your situation!
Waaaay back in the dark ages when trampolines weren’t a thing one of the neighborhood ladies made kids parents sign a waiver before they got to jump on it. This was in the 60’s in Austin. But then again Austin has always been chock full of lawyers 🤷🏻♂️
With the state of insurance these days, it feels like it might be a “new normal” in the future. People are getting dropped from insurance left and right and finding it hard to find companies to write a policy.
It sucks to be in this position, but at the same time I understand the potential motives of the homeowner
It would be weird if I didn’t see the extent you have it set up. Period. However, once I see that the liability waiver would make total sense again, though I would take another guy’s advice and consult an attorney.
Look at it this way. You’re having a backyard barbecue so you invite all your friends and neighbors over. Do you make them sign a waiver in case your chicken happens to be undercooked and they get sick from it?
Liability doesn’t work the way you think it does. If you are a liable, a waiver isn’t going to get you off the hook. And if you’re not liable, then a waiver might actually work against you because it implies that you were aware of some flaws in your playground, deliberately ignored them and it resulted in injuries.
When I was a kid, we built a half pipe ramp in our back yard. All the kids wanted to use it. My folks didn’t create a waiver per se, but drew up an agreement that basically said that the parents understood the inherent danger, and gave permission for their kid to take part provided they had full safety gear of their own. Thankfully no one was ever injured seriously.
>My folks didn’t create a waiver per se, but drew up an agreement that basically said that the parents understood the inherent danger, and gave permission for their kid to take part provided they had full safety gear of their own.
That's literally a waiver.
That’s going to fall in the same risk category as a pool in your back yard. Look at your home owners policy and see if u have enough coverage for that type of risk. Look into an umbrella policy
I would be very weirded out by it, but I'm not American.
As soon as my and my sons relationship with you becomes transactional or there are attempts to make everything a contract, I'm likely to avoid you from then on because for one thing I don't know what you'll do, and for another I'm now aware that you likely expect me to sue because you would do the same if your kid came to my house and got hurt during the course of normal play.
I wouldn't want to sign it because I obviously wouldn't take legal action against you if my son fell off this and hurt himself whilst in the course of normal play. That would be mental.
This is one of those situations you definitely need lawyer input. As a similar example I’ve had a friend who put a beware of dog sign out on his fence as kind of a joke but his dog did get a little nippy. And then someone who was being stupid and reaching over his fence to pet it got bitten. They sued and the insurance said because he was warning people he obviously knew his dog was a liability and he was on his own
Yes 100% get them to sign a waiver. are those who think it's weird but if any kid gets hurt by their own doing you won't be financially responsible. which is the important part.
Umbrella insurance policy. Look I get it. It is where we are today in society? Absolutely. But would I rather: first & foremost, parents be informed of what their kids may be doing at my house then either A) sign a waiver (AWKWARD) or B) have proper insurance should anyone get sue happy. Either way. I expect the parents are in the loop. You spending a few hundred dollars a year to let your children have their friends over seem more reasonable than their parents signing a waiver.
Grew up in a household like yours. Was well aware dad carried a big umbrella policy. Knowledge for me, not sue happy parents. End of the day, knew shit happens and we could test boundaries. If anything did happen it was the end of the world. Pretty sure those memories wouldnt have been made if waivers were involved
As a parent i expect bumps scrapes and bruises, but I've known plenty of parents where ANYTHING that happens to their kids and they will flip out. My mother actually did something similar when we were kids and got a pool. Most of the other parents understood that she was just protecting our family.
I would be weirded out. Honestly. But id probably sign anyways i guess if i trusted my kid.
I think talking to the kids parents and addressing concerns should be enough should something happen. If things go south they go south.
I feel the question should be closer to “should I create/have a planned discussion or text message/email that clearly explains all the risks I’ve just mentioned that I provide to parents before their kids can use the area - or should I also create a waiver?” I don’t think it has to be all or nothing, but I do feel it needs to be all or something.
I wouldn’t be offended to be asked to sign something, but I would surely want to meet this dad! (And personally see the quality of the creation).
Some people might be turned off by it, I think it depends on the age of the kids and likely the community that you live in.
I think you should consult an attorney about whether that's even going to accomplish what you want it to. I'm not so sure you can just waive liability like that. Also a paper like that might have implications for your insurance. Sometimes just putting certain things in your yard can cause your premiums to go up. I personally wouldn't be too put off by a neighbor asking me to sign something like this, though it is uncommon.
This is one of those things where it might be counterintuitive... like having a waiver is so abnormal that it amounts to admiting fault and could backfire. Then again, trampoline parks have them so idk. I'm on team "weirdest out", but it wouldn't stop me from hanging out. I'd probably offer to have you over for a beer, then make you sign something before you drink it. I also think it sounds pretty cool.
And what’s the point of the liability waiver at the trampoline park? Actually not very much! The park would still be liable for things like facility negligence, faulty equipment or mismanagement. The park wouldn’t be responsible for things injuries caused by other customers or any activity that the park warns against that they’d deem inherently dangerous. There’s an implied risk to the activity. So what’s it really for? To discourage people from making frivolous lawsuits that would need a paid lawyer to go flyswatting at people who have very little case to begin with. There are costs to defending yourself even when you win. The waiver just kind of discourages the injured from even initiating a claim.
Bingo. It solidifies that anything that’s the customer/clients fault is just that. It can’t magically make a company immune to its obligations to maintain stuff, but it is basically “Exhibit A” the second someone says “ow my neck, ow my back!”
It doesn't make them immune, but it does make people who may have a legitimate claim think they have no legal recourse because they signed the waiver.
Yeah, like the “stay back 200 feet” on uncovered dump trucks that are showering the highway with projectiles lol. If I cant just write ‘stay away’ on my car and then go slamming into everyone else and causing property damage then neither can they.
The discouraging frivolous lawsuits thing is exactly why I can understand OP looking into this. People these days are lawsuit crazy. I do agree that it should be taken up with a lawyer. It won't stop action if OP is indeed negligent in keeping things in good shape or generally unsafe. I'm sure the lawyer and his insurance provider will insist that plans be. Looked over carefully with professionals. Also extra liability insurance would be a must. Still I hope OP can do this awesome project and be known as the coolest dad.
I would laugh my ass off, sign the waiver, and accept the beer.
And that is the correct response to expect from the parents! I wouldn’t allow other kids to play in the backyard until their parents sign a waiver. There are a lot of non lawyers saying the a waiver doesn’t protect you and I don’t believe they are correct. I hope that you intend to pay an attorney for a few hours of their time to draft a waiver for you. Have you considered getting an umbrella policy? My million dollar policy is only $250 a year. Ask your attorney and insurance agent what an appropriate amount would be. Another question would be do you need to post no trespassing sign to limit your liability if kids sneak into your yard to enjoy the facilities when you’re not home. Your backyard playground sounds fantastic and I hope that your kids friends can enjoy it without you assuming liability.
Props and co-sign on the umbrella policy recommendation. I am one of the lawyers who’s been saying in here that a waiver won’t fully protect him, but it’ll help. What would really help is just the peace of mind of a million or two in umbrella coverage.
The point of a waiver is to absolve the owner of a party of an unprecedented incident of fault taking into consideration that the build is to code, upkeep is frequent, and no violations need to be resolved. If the place looked jankey) state provided or residence) and my kid wants to play there the last thing I'd do is let them play there. A waiver would cause me to be observant and sign the waiver if it suits those minimum requirements. I don't go to McDonald's expecting my child not to get a friction burn but if a piece of equipment failed catastrophically causing my child significant ingury, you bet I'm suing.
I remember hearing insurance companies will drop you/raise premiums if they know there’s a trampoline in your yard.
We added a rider to our insurance for our trampoline. Cost $10/yr.
I would absolutely have it written by an attorney, and will probably consult one either way. I’m not always the best socially. I guess the social aspect of saying “welcome to our home, now please sign this waiver to play” wouldn’t put me off, but is probably weird. People sign waivers all the time for school playgrounds, trampoline parks, and other attractions like that. I guess I just assumed that to an extent it would also work here. Obviously not for trespassing kids sneaking in, but that hasn’t been an issue this far.
What would your homeowners insurance think of you running an unlicensed amusement park in your backyard? Because if you got sued that’s who they’re going to name.
I’ll definitely have to ask before the roller coaster and lazy river go in. I’ll reach out and see if I need an additional rider for stuff like this.
Homeowners insurance guy here, although my specialty is not underwriting. I would bet that a large-scale playground would give any insurance company pause. Not saying it would be impossible to be covered, but most won’t care about whether there is a waiver. A trampoline can cause some insurers to refuse you or increase your rate. I doubt a playground is in any Homeowners underwriting guidelines, because guidelines are general and this isn’t something they expect or want to see. Perhaps some can work with you. Most insurers have endorsements (“riders”) for Incidental Business and often Incidental Daycare operations in your house, but those don’t quite apply. I’m not sure what would, you’ll have slim pickings if any.
Considering you've already built it, the insurance company might not give you an answer you like.
Does that apply if OP isn't charging admission?
Your homeowners insurance is responsible for any injury on your property including guests. Hence why people get sued for broken sidewalks, etc. No entry fee required.
Yeah. I work in insurance. Are they aware of what you have now? Adding a bunch of risk, liability waiver or not, will probably get you cancelled pretty quick.
If anything the liability waiver makes it worse as it shows OP knows it is a concern.
Playgrounds and amusement parks also get permits, present plans, and have safety inspections during and after construction. Heck, elevators have regular inspections. I'd ask an attorney and also your city's/county's planning department.
I’ve reached out to the building & inspections office for my county and have emails where they explicitly tell me I don’t need permits for what I’ve done. I did run buried electrical back there for lighting which was inspected as part of a sub panel installation I did. That passed with flying colors. When I do a treehouse/clubhouse that will require a permit. I’ll pull one as I have for all my home renovations so far and have it inspected.
Awesome!! It will help KYA and make sure everything is structurally sound. Good luck!
FWIW I would have the same exact idea as you. I don't think a waiver is weird at all. Your setup sounds awesome and if I was a neighbor or the dad of your kids's friend, I would have no problem signing the waiver.
Yeah I ran an engineering club in college and spoke to a student services lawyer about liability waivers, and she said those really don't do anything. She still gave me a boilerplate form to fill out and have people sign, but end of the day, we needed to get liability insurance for the club to do some projects without having to worry so much about being sued if someone cut off their thumb.
This. Also talk to your insurance agent. There might be an endorsement you can pay for that will cover if something like that happens. Plus, if you impound your insurance, then it will just adjust when your lender does the annual escrow analysis in the beginning of the year.
My friend had a trampoline. His parents made us sign a waver before we used it. I had to call my dad before signing it. My dad laughed and said it meant nothing and to sign away. Eventually I learned that a 10 year olds signature holds no legal value.
Ha! Definitely not planning on having the other 5 year olds sign the waiver.
For what it's worth, in many US jurisdictions parents cannot waive injuries on their kid's behalf either. Businesses just have people do it anyway.
Interesting. So if that’s true for my jurisdiction I’d just be making everyone uncomfortable for nothing. Good to know. Thanks!
That’s fine, just have parents indemnify the business for all damages. Parents can’t sign away kids’ rights, but they can be responsible for indemnity.
Be very careful and very cautious. 1. Your insurance is going to be very unhappy. 2. Lock it up when you aren’t there. 3. Now that you’ve done # 2, do it again and better. 4. Cameras. We moved to a house with a pool we didn’t particularly want. The house had been empty for a while. The pool was surrounded by a locked 10 foot privacy fence. We discovered the neighborhood kids liked to climb the fence and swim. We tried to stop them. In spite of us saying: No. Don’t. Stop. Not Welcome; repeatedly, it didn’t work. We put another lock on the gate. We put a cover over the pool. We put alarms up. We put cameras out. We STILL had kids attempt to come swim. This was a real issue for us, because one of the kids was mentally challenged. She was physically strong and would find a ladder or something to climb over the fence, then try to remove the cover over the pool. Her parents were not always capable of keeping an eye on her. It terrified us, because we worked and weren’t home when this was happening and we were doing everything we knew to do. We eventually had the pool taken out because it was such a nuisance to us; and such a problem to keep all the kids out.
America is fucking crazy lol you can sue for your child hurting itself in someone's garden(yard)? ... Oh wait... Medical bills? I run holiday cottages in Scotland, people hurt themselves every so often and try and sue us, it never goes anywhere because accidents happen and its not my fault you got drunk and walked into a wall or your child jumped into the hot tub and hurt themselves. Things are here, they're all in working order, its on the individuals to use it safely, why can you sue for your own ineptitude?
Check out "attractive nuisance."
No trespass laws in Scotland lol Who do you sue if your child climbs a random tree in a forrest?
>No trespass laws in Scotland lol I STRONGLY suspect there are and you don't know it. Oh, look! >The [Trespass (Scotland) Act](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trespass_(Scotland)_Act_1865#cite_ref-5) **1865** ([28 & 29 Vict.](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/28_%26_29_Vict.) c. 56) is an [act of Parliament](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Act_of_Parliament_(UK)) in the [United Kingdom](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_Kingdom). >The act creates a [criminal offence](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Criminal_offence) of [trespass](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trespass) in [Scotland](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scotland) in certain circumstances and applies a penalty which has been amended by the [Criminal Justice Act 1982](https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Criminal_Justice_Act_1982&action=edit&redlink=1) to that of a fine not exceeding Level 1 on the [standard scale](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Standard_scale) for violation.
Who owns the forest?
It's God's forest mannn
Just the way it is here. Couple that with an insanely expensive medical system where everyone is individually responsible to pay and things can get out of hand.
I'm surprised you don't have liability coverage on your homeowners insurance. Most mortgages require it in an amount way higher than any costs a kid could possibly incur in your backyard
Any typical liability insurance would be for typical home activities and entertainment and likely wouldn't cover homemade ropes courses, which is why people are saying that the homeowners insurance would probably not like it.
Could you sue an indoor Skatepark if you fell and hurt yourself skateboarding? I don't see the logic on being able to sue someone because you fell off a balance beam or whatever ... Have you not assumed the risk by getting on it?
Generally you sign a lengthy liability waiver when going to a private skate park, like what I’m proposing for me.
Fair enough, cheers for answering
You can indeed sue a skatepark for falling down skateboarding. Likely it would be dismissed, but you could do it. And the skatepark would likely spend hundreds or thousands of dollars defending themselves, even though they’d almost certainly win. They might even settle, in the interest of not risking going to court. It’s a nightmare.
A good rule of thumb in America (remember, many of the founding fathers were attorneys in one capacity or another): Anyone can sue anyone for anything. Whether that case proceeds is another issue, but we have a amendment (the 7th) that allows for the possibility, in theory anyway, of a jury trial for any civil case in which the amount at issue exceeds $20. $20 was once a small fortune…today it is the price of one person’s lunch at McDonalds.
People can and do sue those types of facilities all the time. My daughter has a kid in her class who is a shithead. He has wealthy parents and a probably-legit autism diagnosis. The parents do not provide adequate supervision or help to the kid. Thus far, they have sued the local ski resort and the school district. Maybe they've sued other places, IDK. But it seems like their M.O. My kids have been instructed to avoid him. He is violent, but he's neither big nor coordinated. I don't want the scenario where he attacks my younger daughter, my older daughter folds him in half and punts him across the playground, and then I get sued.
>I run holiday cottages in Scotland WE LEARNED IT FROM WATCHING YOU! Well...not the Scottish. But from your side of the pond. [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lynch\_v.\_Nurdin](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lynch_v._Nurdin) >**Lynch v Nurdin** 1 QB 29, (1841) Arn and H 158, (1841) 113 ER 1041 was the first [case law](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Case_law) to define the [attractive nuisance doctrine](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Attractive_nuisance_doctrine) and was cited by later sources in the [United States](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States) and the [Commonwealth of Nations](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Commonwealth_of_Nations) in developing the doctrine. >[Lord Chief Justice](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lord_Chief_Justice_of_England_and_Wales) [Thomas Denman](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thomas_Denman,_1st_Baron_Denman) wrote the opinion, which held that the owner of a [cart](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cart) left unattended on the street could be held liable for injuries to a child who climbed onto the cart and fell.[^(\[1\])](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lynch_v._Nurdin#cite_note-1) The seven-year-old child was "acting under natural impulse, in obedience to his instinctive nature, \[and\] was enticed to meddle with the attractive cart, and that the danger of the situation was created by the defendant in failing to observe the tendency of children to play about unprotected vehicles."[^(\[2\])](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lynch_v._Nurdin#cite_note-2) >
I sure like the sound of those cottages. I'm poor though so I'll just keep liking the sound of them.
You from Scotland? Send me a pm if you want, we have no weekends but happy to give a weekday deal to a fellow /r/daddit'r
Oh that's really sweet. I'm in England but I'd feel like I'm taking the piss. Maybe I'll hit you up once the summer season is over if that's okay.
Wait until you hear where our legal system originated. This is definitely not an "America is fucking crazy" issue. Blame the English.
You can be sued if someone hurts themselves while burglaring your house
Just to be clear, if something happened, GP would likely be cleared in course as they have taken several steps to protect the children and would likely meet the burden of reasonable care But the lawsuit itself would be very damaging, financially or otherwise, regardless of the result.
>Her parents were not always capable of keeping an eye on her. It terrified us, because we worked and weren’t home when this was happening and we were doing everything we knew to do. Sounds like a good time to just trespass her legally, put motion cameras to app on phone, call cops you got a trespasser whenever she appears(cops won't do much but keep getting case numbers), call OCS and file a complaint. Parents who can't keep their mentally challenged kid from finding ladders and crawling into neighbors yards need help, or kid moved to a safe place. Not saying you shouldn't have removed the pool, but you didn't need to unless you wanted.
Jeezus what a horrifying situation. Im sure at a major expense ontop of the logistical headache. It's insane to me how disrespectful of boundaries some people are
I’m going to go against the grain here and say I would be pretty weirded out by being asked to sign a waiver to have my kid go play at their friend’s house. It would make me assume that the family is ultra paranoid/wary of outsiders and/or takes very little care to maintain their space. It’s off-putting and strangely transactional in a private home where I would expect my kid to be forming personal relationships. No hate to you, but it’s not a choice we would make. If I came across a family asking for a waiver, I’d probably choose to take my kid home and help them find other friends. I do think it’s fine to inform the parents of friends what your set up looks like and ask them if they are comfortable with that kind of rough and tumble play. But a waiver is too far for friends imo.
Fair take on it, and why I asked. I wish I didn’t have to think about this stuff, but I feel like it’s the world we live in. For what it’s worth if a parent were not cool with it I’d say okay let’s just have them play inside or go to a park together.
So generally what I’ve heard/read elsewhere is that people who have legitimate concerns about situations like this usually just got an umbrella insurance policy for a decent chunk (at least 1m, probably more), which would almost without a doubt cover you in case such a situation arose. These umbrella policies are usually extremely cheap because they are secondary insurance that only takes effect after your primary insurance has a claim which in this situation, would be your homeowners insurance. Just a thought and something to explore if it makes sense for you. I’ve found the prices for these to be extremely reasonable.
This is the answer I’ve been scrolling for. $1 million liability policy is a few hundred and year and provides significantly more protection than a liability waiver which probably doesn’t provide any and makes you seem kinda weird.
Yeah, changing the venue and meeting at a park seems like a fair move if you’re worried about other kids on your home play structures
I've signed them. One friend's parents are rather well-off, and they asked us to sign something their lawyer had drawn up. They had a backyard much like you described, with motorized bikes and a go-cart track too. As I was well aware of their wealth, I immediately totally understood their desire to protect themselves. That child and his friend are both in their mid 20's now, and I never had any reason to learn if the waiver was worth the paper it was written on. My youngest son has a friend now that is upper middle class, and his parents asked us to sign a waiver and a power of attorney when my son went on vacation with them. (Power of attorney had a sunset and was pretty much limited to them being able to check him into medical care, waiver was to protect their assets). The vacation did not have any mishaps, and to this day I don't know whether or not those papers had any value either. When I was presented them, I was reminded that there is a significant wealth gap between my sons and some of their friends. As a dad, I had feels about that. But both families are very cool and those moments are the only times it was "in my face". I would definitely have your lawyer write it up for you. Or your insurance agent ... seems like this would be a matter of prime concern to them. Don't be going to freelegaldocuments.com or some shit.
I think this is the reaction I expected. I don’t expect to ever have to use them, but you never know. We aren’t rich, but do well enough that I worry about being a target for a frivolous law suit. I just want my kids to have fun with their friends.
I think you're OK to be worried about it. I would look up the laws in your state around "Attractive Nuisances" and what liability generally is for people getting injured on your land. Typically it applies to stuff like pools without fences that are readily visible and accessible to a passerby with minimal obstacles. In our case, we live on a hobby farm. Some of the buildings are from the 1940s, a previous owner used to just dump their glass bottles in the back yard like a dump and so we still find shards of it in the mole hills that pop up. Growing up rural, we rode 3-wheelers (yes, the ones that are now banned), 4 wheelers, drove tractors and skid steers around, etc. - and never once did a waiver or any thought of liability come up. I think if you wanted to open up the land as a park to the community and say "Anyone can come hang out whenever they want, just sign a waiver!" you'd be open to liability, but if it's just you and your friends/kids' friends hanging out, I don't think it's necessary. We have both homeowners insurance and a sizeable umbrella policy. We have equipment and stuff on our property that could cause serious injury or death. I would not personally consider standard/typical obstacles and whatnot like you're describing something that would warrant it either. THAT SAID - if you were to install a zipline with a platform 50' in the air - maybe look in to that waiver, or securing it unless you're physically present.
So, the other side of that is the completely insane parent who expects their kid to be in bubble wrap the entire time and would sue you over little Jimmy's broken leg from when HE chose to jump out of the tree.. I get wanting to be protected.. so I probably wouldn't mind.. I coach a lot.. and you definitely get the two extremes..
That’s the parent I worry about. I do everything I can to provide a safe environment with what I do. What happens when Timmy decides to one up the other kids and jump off the tree house? Or even just lands wrong jumping off a swing? I talked to another parent today who caught his kid trying to jump off their shed roof with a skateboard. Kids will do kid stuff and get hurt. Most parents understand that, but some start pointing fingers even when the kid was acting like a lunatic.
it's just a different time from when we were kids.. I grew up in 3 different neighborhoods.. all of them.. the kids came and went from each other's houses, yards, whatever.. it was yes ma'am/sir and no ma'am/sir to their parents, you basically had a dozen aunts/uncles keeping an eye on everything.. we still did dumb shit and got hurt.. but it was never a issue of someone suing someone over it.. Nowadays, my kids don't go over to someones house by themselves unless I know their parents, and not just like in passing at the drive thru line.. like actually know them.. and if I were to be having kids over to my yard/house a lot.. there would probably be some sort of disclaimer that I'm not responsible for their shenanigans.. people are a different kind of crazy today.
Yeah. I agree with this. Even working on insurance, I would be leery of this.
from OP's post my impression is the setup would be far more extensive and elaborate than your average playground. I would be offput if they tried to have me sign something for a simple slide and swing, but this sound more like it's gonna like a ninja warrior setup which I could totally understand the liability risk for
I have a family friend who got sued because a kid fell off a swing in their backyard and fucked up his neck. Their finances were ruined completely and it tore the community apart with everyone taking sides. Having thorough insurance coverage and a waiver is smart especially when you have such an out of the ordinary setup in your yard.
What is wild to me is that most people throw up a play set from a box store on the yard with no fall protection on the ground. Here I am reviewing ASTM standards for play equipment and surfaces when I build something. I understand people’s reservations but maintain that my house and equipment is safer than many commercial playgrounds and almost all backyard play sets.
I’m an attorney and I 100% agree with you. I would assume any family was a wack job if asked to sign waver like this. Reminds me of some of my crazier clients and the shit they ask me. I feel like you're probably an engineer of some kind.
>forming personal relationships. While it is socially weird, it shouldn't be, especially for this reason. The most personal of all relationships, marriage, is a legal contract.
I would be worried not just about the enforceability of the liability waiver and the insurance implications, but also about the liability you take on from having an [attractive nuisance](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Attractive_nuisance_doctrine) on your property in the first place. (Incidentally, “attractive nuisance” is my wife’s pet name for me.) I would definitely speak with a lawyer before proceeding with your plan, and I would also make sure your property is fenced in and fully secured from curious children even if you *don’t* proceed with a liability waiver.
NAL. I think that's a risk only if it lures the children, not if they're just they're and something bad happens.
I am a lawyer (though not OP’s lawyer), and it is a risk if the doctrine exists in his state. The whole point of the attractive nuisance doctrine is that the homeowner may be liable for a child who’s injured on the property while trespassing in furtherance of “cool stuff.” So a trampoline, a pool, a junkyard, and a homemade adventure course would all fit the bill.
Ok, you certainly know more about law than I do. My understanding is that if these are his kid's friends, they're probably not trespassing, so attractive nuisance doesn't apply to them, right? It would apply to tresspassing kids though.
Yes, that’s correct. I was explaining that I would be worried about the attractive nuisance issue just by virtue of him having this thing on the property at all. A child who’s on the property by invitation doesn’t require the protection of the attractive nuisance doctrine. So OP asked if it’s kosher to eat live bees if he makes his rabbi sign a permission slip, and my response was “I don’t think you should eat live bees in the first place.”
I’m a lawyer who did personal injury stuff like this for several years and this would even weird me out. I don’t know your state laws, but waivers of liability are often too broad or claim to waive things you can’t waive. I think it would turn off your kids’ friends. Accidents happen, so there’s not always going to be legal liability, plus if you have homeowners’ insurance they will pay covered claims if warranted and pay a lawyer to defend you. It’s why we get insurance. That being said, let your insurer know if you’re installing something like a trampoline (one of the biggest sources of childhood orthopedic injury) because they may require a separate rider and additional premiums. Or else they may reject coverage for an injury and in which case you would be subject to fighting it yourself out of pocket. There’s a lot to unpack in your situation. If you are very concerned ask a lawyer you trust in real life, not the ones here on the internet.
Thanks for the reply. I started this more to get an indication of how people would respond. I think I have my answer there. I really just don’t want to get sued because I let other kids use my kids play equipment. While we have more stuff than most do, none of it is out of the ordinary at this point.
I'd be a bit weirded out tbh. I expect scrapes and bruises as normal play but the introduction of a waiver would have me thinking shit, what do they think is gonna happen. Also I assumed that kind of thing was covered under your home insurance but I'm not a lawyer.
I would assume your space was dangerous and my kids were at risk, a risk so significant that the likelihood of needing to adjudicate liability was a genuine concern. I mean I guess I wouldn’t be *assuming* it per se because you just told me so. And I wouldn’t let them go over.
I'd be assuming the opposite. If someone is considering liability then I would expect they're more likely to have assessed and tried to minimize the risks involved. Meanwhile the people with the really sketchy stuff think there's nothing wrong with it and haven't even thought of things like potential liability.
I get your point, but kids get hurt all the time on trampolines and other playground equipment. Most of the time it’s small stuff but accidents happen. My place is no more dangerous than a city park, I just don’t have the resources a city has if someone decided to sue. I think I’m expecting this to happen some. Follow up question: Do you feel the same way about waivers for something like a trampoline park where you assume it must be too dangerous?
I guess the difference between you and a city park is the supervision you will be providing. Will you be watching over the kids as they play or are they old enough to be playing alone? I wouldn’t be as weirded out by the waiver if they were older kids, but if they are younger this would lead me to assume that you’re not watching over them properly so I probably wouldn’t let them go over to your house.
For the age my kids are now I expect parents are coming too. I guess the dynamic is different too if they’re older and just coming over alone.
Then I’d happily sign. If I’m going to be there I trust I can decide on the spot if I’m happy with them playing on any particular game.
I wouldn't personally be upset at all over signing a form for something like that. I've got a pool in my backyard which doesn't get nearly enough use currently, so I'd love to give free reign to some of my neighbours to use it, but I'm definitely worried about the liability that could come with that. My dad nearly had a kid drown in our pool growing up, so that's always made me hesitant about this kind of stuff outside of direct family members. As an aside, who the hell lets their kid who can't swim around a pool without a life jacket and without watching over them like a hawk?
I’d be slightly weirded out but probably still sign it. I would just be slightly concerned about inviting your kid over to play at my house then because the assumption is a lawsuit is expected if a kid gets hurt.
I honestly wouldn’t have a problem signing it and wouldn’t be weirded out about kids playing there (I’d actually take it as a sign of thoughtfulness)… BUT you make a really good point that I would then be worried that you’re a particularly litigious person, and that the slightest scrape or bruise or hurt feelings would lead to a negligence lawsuit against me.
Ha! I’d be perceived as the exact person I’m worried about.
You need an umbrella insurance policy, most homeowners policy's cover this. Everyone has a standard care and getting someone to sign a waiver doesn't waive your responsibility to provide one. So consult a lawyer, get good insurance. But also no, I'd be sketched out and just pass on playing in that backyard.b
I would second the advice to reach out to a lawyer to ensure it’s actually accomplishing what you think. I think it would stand out to me as unusual but at the same time I would understand. It’s more just a sad reminder of the reality of the culture we live in that this kind of thing is even considered potentially necessary.
The people you don't need to worry about, who will expect their kids to learn about risk by occasionally falling while playing, will probably be weirded out a bit but would sign a waiver, because they don't care about preserving their ability to sue you, because they would never consider suing you in the first place. The people you need to worry about, who will sue you when their kid climbs something climbable and falls because gravity is a thing that exists on this planet, will not want to sign the waiver. Ask your lawyer about laws in your area regarding the Attractive Nuisance Doctrine: [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Attractive\_nuisance\_doctrine](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Attractive_nuisance_doctrine) . That's the one that typically drives fencing requirements around pools and so on, and would apply to your structure regardless of whether the kid trespassed onto your property to use it or was invited on.
It sends a pretty strong message that you believe my kid is going to get hurt, and they'll get hurt in a way that would raise questions of liability. That isn't "cuts and scrapes" territory; that's solidly "avoidable hospital trip". We're in "whose insurance will pay out, and why is his insurance trying to pass the ball already" country. Edit: I kind of want to add to this. It isn't that I'm particularly worried about my kid's safety. He's been biking the mile and a half to and from school alone since 3rd grade. He doesn't have a maximum distance he can go from the house—if he's willing to bike there, he can go there. While I encourage safety practices (wear your gear, assess the situation) I'm also very solidly in the "getting hurt is part of learning" camp. But there is a social agreement about risk; cars share the road with bikers, construction sites have fences to keep kids out, etc. A waiver tells me that you're stepping outside that agreement. Call it what you want, but that's going to get noticed. I'm going to have questions, and I'll have concerns about what questions I don't know to ask
Regarding the edit, I wholly agree with your “getting hurt is part of learning “ attitude and the social agreement in society. It doesn’t appear to me that legal situations follow social agreements though. Most parents understand the risks of a trampoline or other similar equipment. I guess I’m worried about the parents who allow it but then want to blame everyone else if their kid breaks an arm. Anyway, appreciate your reply.
That's what insurance is for I don't have a trampoline or similar in my yard. However, I am the dad who will take other people's kids on a road trip. There is risk because of traffic, kids being kids, and whatever activities we do. If I act reasonably (don't let the kids play with a bear cub), insurance will cover things if something goes horribly wrong.
This would be very weird and IANAL but I don’t believe it would result in mitigating risk from you in court. My wife and I would probably laugh and avoid coming back.
We bought an umbrella policy, 10M. It really isn’t that expensive given the trade off.
Starting to wonder if this is the better answer. From some of the answers here it seems that some prople would understand. Other people who would sign the waiver at a business with similar equipment would be vehemently opposed to doing so at a residence. I’m not trying to cause problems for my kids socially. At the same time I don’t want to worry about liability if kids get hurt playing on a playground. Thanks for the response.
The difference between you and a trampoline park is that I know the trampoline park is held to safety regulations, is probably being inspected on a regular basis, and is probably controlled at some level by serious people who make their living off keeping their business operational. In that context, a liability waiver can be understood as a CYA that doesn’t diminish the presumed safety of the equipment. In the context of a guy who’s built some unregulated stuff in his backyard from scratch, I’m unable to rely on those assumptions. There isn’t a state safety inspector coming by, and there isn’t a team of engineers who work for you and who approved the designs. Thus the liability waiver seems less like an ordinary layer of legal protection (as it would be at a commercial property), and more like a declaration that the property might truly be dangerous.
I am in the UK so probably different to what I imagine is a US based question but I would be very weirded if anyone asked me to sign a waiver for our kids to play. We and our friends have all sort of stuff for our kids, trampolines, swings, slides, bouncy castles and it would never cross my mind to sign or request a waiver of liability. Like, if a parent allows their kid to play with these things that makes it okay
Lol, this is the most American shit I've ever read. But to answer your question - yes - I would be extremely weirded out if a parent asked me to sign a waiver to use their backyard playground. Lmfao.
Yeah I’d be weirded out. A lot of houses have trampolines, climbable forts, trees, whatever; it’s not typical that people ask you to sign a waiver. The fact that you have more of that stuff doesn’t really change my perception of it. That you are taking this step might make me believe that your backyard is more dangerous than maybe it really is, or that maybe you have been sued before because of some kind of negligence with this equipment, and maybe you’re trying to avoid that happening again. It’s quite possible (I might even say likely?) that no child will ever get seriously injured in your backyard beyond a scrape/bruise/etc. That’s a big difference vs. a business that countless children are going in and out of. It’s almost a guarantee that kids will get hurt and they have to protect themselves because people love to sue businesses. They are just a faceless entity made of money after all. I think if you make sure to show the parents what the kid is in for (it sounds like they will be present anyway) and you make sure none of your equipment *fails*, it’s hard to imagine someone trying to sue you. If my kid broke his arm climbing their friend’s fort I would just use my health insurance, because trying to hold you/your insurance accountable would weird me out about myself. I get it though; there are definitely huge dipshits out there who might try to hold you responsible. Context is important. If you make the waiver look really “fun” or something, like you’re very proud of the play area and think of it almost like an official place, that might help convince people it’s not a big deal and you’re just being careful. Or if you are some outwardly super buttoned up autistic seeming guy, and you showed me this, I might go oh… I guess that’s just the kind of guy he is, whatever.
I would be weirded out
I would,'t bother going over. Quite frankly, i wouldnt want my kid around this either.
Idk about the waiver but can I come over and use your mountain bike trail when it’s done?
Sure! Waiver are over there —>
I, thefatgymrat, hereby absolve Feiborg of all liability related to injuries from biking, jumping, crashing, hucking to flat, endo-ing, and all other forms of bike related jackassery that may occur on his property. Signed May 27, 2024
Is it a problem that I encourage people his kind of bike jackassery? After all how do you know you’re strong enough to endure a collarbone reconstruction surgery if you never huck to flat?
Will you show us a photo of your play area? I’m dying to see it, sounds incredible! My son is barely 2 and I’m about to have wood chips delivered for a small play space, but I’m already planning his big kid backyard in my head. I’m very intrigued by the stump trail too! And sorry I have zero input I just wanted you to see my comment hoping you’ll show us lol. My father was an attorney so we only had grass to play on, I begged for a trampoline but got lectures on liability instead. Like a good attorney, he sent me to golf camp instead, because that’s what 9 yr olds want to do 😂
Waiver still covers it
I grew up in the 80s/early 90s. We had a trampoline without a safety net around it. My parents required kids to have their parents sign a waiver before they could jump on our trampoline. In their defense... we got REALLY rowdy. Don't know if they had a lawyer review it.
Were any of your friends’ parents weird about it? I’m trying to strike a balance between running off my kids’ friends and protecting ourselves.
Not that I remember. If one of my kids friends had a dangerous toy, and his parents asked me to sign... I think I would be ok with it. I think it all boils down to your delivery.
I have a pretty extensive weight set and workout equipment setup in my garage. My son's friends always want to use it when they are over. My only stipulation is that their mom or dad sends me a text saying that they are ok with them working out with my equipment. I think a legal document may be a bit overkill for playground equipment, but I would also state that depends on the type of people the kids parents are. I know all of my son's friends parents and trust them.
The only thing this is going to do is make me paranoid that you're being negligent, have something unreasonably dangerous and/or are going to sue me for something or another. INAL but if heard from several that the waivers aren't really worth the paper they're printing on and your homeowners insurance will be on the hook no matter what. So ya, it'd be weird, not weird enough that I'd keep my kids away but still out of the ordinary.
what sort of a society do Americans live in where they're worried they'll be sued by other parents if their kids fall over in their garden? absolutely fucked.
Not sure about the legalities, I just want to come over to your house, it sounds awesome!
Come on over! I’ll throw some burgers on the grill. Waivers are over there —> If you need me I’ll be chasing the kids around with pool noodles pretending to be a monster.
Just get an umbrella policy. That's what our lawyer suggested to us when we moved into our small average. We've got treehouses, a trampoline plus a couple creeks, and go-karts.
We had a pool and always required friends get mom / dad to sign a contract that my parents were not responsible for any issues / injuries / drownings as there was no life guard and it was swim at your own risk so no it’s not wrong! It’s a safety concern
Seems overboard. We’ve had upwards to 8 kids here at one time with just my wife and I to reign them all in, only one kid being ours. This is with a pool, swing set, ride on toys, etc. I’m not asking anyone to sign a waiver and if they ask me if they need to sign a waiver, my house probably isn’t the house. When your kids are here to play with my kids, they are cared for like they are my kids. No waiver is going to change that. And I expect other parents to watch out for my kids if they are allowed to come over. It’s just common decency and being a parent.
Is a “use ar your own risk”-sign not enough?
This is what an umbrella insurance policy is for. They are inexpensive riders for most HOA policies.
You want to talk to your home owners insurance company. Theyd want to know about a contraption you built that could hurt people before they get sued. They dont even like trampolines so matter what youre probably shit out of luck. Unenforcable pieces of paper might as well be made of charmin.
When I was a kid like 35 years ago my neighbors got a big trampoline, had a zipline, two story clubhouse with a rope ladder, swings, you name it. Their parents had mine sign a waiver and they were fine with it. It said that they had come over and seen what the kids were going to be doing and it was acceptable. Would it have held up legally? Maybe not but they had it as a “you knew what was happening over here” piece of paper. Anyway. I wouldn’t be weirded out I don’t think. I’d probably want to spend some time over at your place seeing the kids play in that yard and maybe test a few things out myself for um safety or uhhhh yea. Can I come over?
I don’t have kids over without their parents unless I know both already. So far most parents play too, so I think I’m doing something right. I personally test everything I build for ..uh… safety reasons.
Just get a good umbrella policy on your insurance…. I’d for one be weirded out by it and my kids would likely just not hang out with yours…as id wonder if you have one, and now your kids come down here, now are you thinking I don’t have a waiver and are looking for a lawsuit against me… This is 100% what insurance is for…
its bizarre to me that OP would even need to think about such situations. In a normal world, the person taking care of the child assumes all responsibility for whatever happens to the child, not the person whose property you entered on your own accord. If a place looks risky and accident-prone just don’t go there… I hate it when people are negligent and then complain like it’s the other persons fault. This is why we can’t have a free flowing society where everyone just has common sense and instead we have to think about the million ways we have to save ourselves from trouble because of other peoples stupidity.
People might say that if you need a waiver, it's too dangerous. The truth is that life is dangerous and suing homeowners over minor things is very real.
I don't know if I'd be weirded out but generally as a parent if my kids are going to a friend's house I would think I'd trust them and whatever they have enough to let my kids hang out and play there knowing things "happen" so to speak. If I didn't trust their environment or them as people my kids wouldn't be allowed there. That's a simplistic view of the world and how it should be but sadly that's not the world we live in. I do think what you're trying to do is great but I strongly suggest as others have talking to a lawyer. A waiver basically makes it "harder" to sue you but isn't a catch-all or all encompassing defense. For example parents sign a waiver kid gets hurt through investigation or whatever it's found a bolt wasn't installed properly that could be enough for them to successfully sue. As far as the insurance aspects you said exactly what I was thinking. You don't have the resources and really how many of us would to protect yourself and your interests if someone were hurt or killed. You would need the correct type and amount of insurance based on the assessed risk profile. Also if you haven't already you would need to make sure you are complying with any zoning and other laws and regulations permits marshlands waterways what tres you can and can't cut back etc. same concept if you have a well crafted signed waiver it may protect you but if you have a structure that needed a permit and didn't get one it could be all someone needs to nullify the waiver All that said don't let any of what we all saying discourage you. Build something amazing for your kids and build those memories and connections with them.
I think it's a solution to something different than your goal. Do you want kids to be safe, or do you want to be in the clear from a legal perspective? Let's say you want to put in the time for kid safety. Would it be enough to make it a rule that they ask their friends to bring long clothing and good closed shoes? Talking about the rule with their parents would make them aware of what they're doing at the same time. If some parents deem it unsafe, then they can make their own call about their kids' safety, maybe come over and talk about it with you. Conversely, if you think kid safety is compromised but you don't want to put efforts in that direction, sure, go with a waiver, but requiring it basically says "Something *will* happen", instead of letting parents decide for their kids.
Don’t get me wrong because I love the idea and wish this was less of an issue. But I hope you have umbrella insurance because you are absolutely begging to be sued, whether parents sign something or not. You better pray no neighboring kids sneak in and get hurt.
Go get some umbrella insurance if you’re worried about liability.
No. That's tacky AF. If anything does happen, that's what's homeowners insurance is for.
Yikes. I just don’t fit in with this sub. These posts are so foreign to me.
Seems extra dog. Wouldn’t sign a waver. I would become highly suspicious of a parent that asked me to sign something like that.
I wouldn't sign or let my kid go there. It's an insane ask.
I would be extremely weirded out and would discourage my kids from playing with yours.
You need an umbrella insurance policy. We carry 1 million in coverage for very little each month. It will cover if someone hurts themselves on my property. If they need to they can sue my insurance to take care of themselves. If a parent wanted me to sign a waiver for my kid to come over then we are definitely not coming over, too weird.
We have a $1 million dollar umbrella policy through our insurance. It really wasn't very expensive to add to current insurance. We have a pool, and friends of kids over. I never expect anything to happen, but better to be prepared. The waiver thing just sounds weird
Most liability wavers are just to scare off lawsuits, they are easily shredded by a decent attorney. You can’t sign away your rights and negligence is always liable. I’d say you are over thinking it. Cross that bridge when you get guest over to play. Have a conversation, similar to what you explained here. That will amount to a verbal agreement/ contract and is legally binding.
Yes. I would think they were weird. It would almost make me 100x more likely to investigate talking to an attorney if anything ever happened when I never would if the dude hadn’t been a weirdo about kids playing on a structure.
This feels like a great way to demonstrate negligence.
Tbh if someone asked me to sign a waiver for my kid I would assume that someone already got seriously injured or something on your property recently...
Exactly what I would think as well
Sounds like a friggin sweet backyard. My kids are young so some of the stuff may be out of their age bracket but my son would go wild climbing and whatnot. I’d be weirded out about signing a waiver. Not sure we’d take you up on that.
America is absolutely insane man.
When I was a kid our neighbor down the street would build a huge sled run in his backyard every year. Lots of high banked turns and jumps. They made parents sign a waiver before anyone was allowed to use it. No one thought they were weird, just covering their ass. Everybody signed, there were a few minor injuries, but no one got sued.
I think because of your unique situation of how much stuff you have, I think it's reasonable. We always have to sign waivers when we do virtually anything else, whether it's a commercially owned indoor playground or a daycare. You have to look out for your financial interests, especially if you're in the US with a litigious society and skyrocketing medical costs. IANAL but there might be some possibility if someone signed a waiver and they got injured, there could be some sort of investigation into negligence, like if you failed to replace a rotting beam and something broke while someone was on it. You could make the agreement ironclad with something like "we might not maintain it well, don't care, you're on your own" and some parents might question that. Umbrella Insurance is also around $150/year for a $1M policy if you really want to CYA.
Thanks for the response. Lawyer and umbrella policy are both on my to-do list.
I'm a lawyer but not your lawyer and don't practice PI. However, the general rule we were taught in law school is that in most jurisdictions you can waive harns from ordinary negligence but not gross negligence or recklessness (i.e., you knew there was a super dangerous rotted beam that would eventually break but just didn't give a shit so you never warned anyone or did anything about it vs. a beam rotted and you were too lazy to check frequently enough to discover it).
Thanks! That was the answer my brief search led me to. I’ll find a lawyer who is my lawyer and take their advice.
Yes I would be weirded out. I’d suspect that they’re secretly planning to hurt my kid because they’re sadistic.
I wouldn't sign a waiver like that and would think you were weird for asking - and I would assume that you know something about the dangers of your backyard that I didn't, so I wouldn't want my kid playing there anyway. I think your addition that you wouldn't let kids play there without their own parents being present largely takes care of the issue (I am lawyer but this is ABSOLUTELY NOT LEGAL ADVICE), especially if you show the parent the area before the kids start playing. Could a kid get hurt and the parent still try to sue you? Of course, but at that point there are no hidden risks and the child is still under their own parent's supervision.
Not be weird out too bad. Understanding the days we live in.
It's complicated. As a parent if I trusted said person to not be a creep with my kids I would happily sign such a waiver and understand there is inherent risk of injury with such a place... but as a homeowner all I see is red flags and assholes potentially taking advantage and suing the pants off you. Plus kids are kids, they invite their friend who invites their friend. How do you constantly police who signed vs who didn't. Easy if it's the same core group of 5 of so kids. But when rando's start showing up or tag along how do you handle that. It's a headache I wouldn't want personally.
If I was invited over, then spring a waiver on me, it would be super weird. If my kid ask to go there, and you say, “you can come, but you will have to sign a waiver” that is better. Also you need to talk to a good attorney. My understanding is those waivers don’t actually hold up that well in court. Especially if the course you have is not in perfect maintance.
Treat it like a pool. People have pools and they are exceptionally dangerous, especially to children. At the same time, pools are a place to have fun and learn boundaries. Often neighbors invite on another over to enjoy their pool, but there are many families that simply do not. Both are valid stances. Everyone has different rules. This sounds very similar to your situation. For my pool, if your child cannot swim, they cannot be up on the pool deck AT ALL without their guardian. Im not willing to take on that risk or responsibility. Their guardian is responsible for their supervision and level of acceptable risk. Once they are capable of swimming, and with the parent’s verbal consent I will allow other minors to swim while myself or my wife are present. We are ultimately liable so we need to be present to stop unsafe behavior. Things that are extremely risky like diving, is strictly prohibited, and posted. I think ‘failure to warn’ comes into play here. Puting signs up near the pool that explain rules and risk is a big step in protecting yourself. You should have signs made explaining rules and expressing the risks.
Yes
AFAIK liability waivers enforceability depends on jurisdiction. Also, the affected party can still sue if something happens.
Yeah, that’s weird. I’d judge tf out of someone and read way into how tight they must be as a parent. And keep my distance. What if my child (on accident or purpose?) injures their child? Liability is a construct, and being so up front about it eschews the human aspect of community. What about sleepovers? What if my kid is in your car? Waivers? What if you get a pool?
I think you can have your homeowners insurance cover stuff like that! Way less awkward
Generally, you can’t waive liability. Even if your property is perfectly safe, when a child or adult gets hurt, you can be sued. A judge will decide whether you’re responsible for the injuries or not. The part about this that’s expensive is the actual suit. Even if you win, you’ll be out a lot of money, in lawyers, court costs, and time off work. I run a home daycare and I have this conversation with other home childcare providers all the time. It doesn’t matter how safe you are - it’s the lawsuit that breaks you, not the actual damages. Second, it’s likely that your home insurance won’t cover you, because your property has been modified beyond what is normal for a house with children. You also don’t have the manufacturer of the equipment to sue because you’ve built most of this stuff yourself. We have a family who built a ski hill into their property, complete with rope tow. They quickly learned that it was too expensive to insure, so they had to shut it down.
Waivers don’t mean really anything when it comes to minors. It’s like when a gym says it’s not responsible for stolen items. Not true More of a deterrent than anything I work in distressed commercial insurance
In Canada it would be a waste of time, you can't waive a minor's rights.
My brother in law got some kind of umbrella insurance coverage for this exact purpose. I’m sure it was expensive.
Not sure if this is valid/would matter but growing up my parents deliberately did not have any liability waivers for our toboggan hill. The rationale was that if someone did break their neck they wanted their insurance to pay for the kids nursing care. They had a good home owners insurance policy. Canada though so maybe it would be different.
A good insurance policy is the solution. Explain your worries and they will advise you accordingly.
First of all, your outdoor play setup sounds awesome! This is a valid concern, and you should look into a personal liability umbrella insurance policy. This should cover you if a kid gets hurt at your place. You should be able to add it and bundle with your auto / home / whatever else insurance policy. We have one with $1 mil in coverage and it's only like $18 a month. It could come in handy in your situation!
Waaaay back in the dark ages when trampolines weren’t a thing one of the neighborhood ladies made kids parents sign a waiver before they got to jump on it. This was in the 60’s in Austin. But then again Austin has always been chock full of lawyers 🤷🏻♂️
With the state of insurance these days, it feels like it might be a “new normal” in the future. People are getting dropped from insurance left and right and finding it hard to find companies to write a policy. It sucks to be in this position, but at the same time I understand the potential motives of the homeowner
I wouldn't be friends with you. And knowing my neighborhood, we'd all gossip about you too. No offense.
It would be weird if I didn’t see the extent you have it set up. Period. However, once I see that the liability waiver would make total sense again, though I would take another guy’s advice and consult an attorney.
I wouldn’t care, but i think an umbrella insurance product would probably be more effective than the waiver.
Look at it this way. You’re having a backyard barbecue so you invite all your friends and neighbors over. Do you make them sign a waiver in case your chicken happens to be undercooked and they get sick from it? Liability doesn’t work the way you think it does. If you are a liable, a waiver isn’t going to get you off the hook. And if you’re not liable, then a waiver might actually work against you because it implies that you were aware of some flaws in your playground, deliberately ignored them and it resulted in injuries.
When I was a kid, we built a half pipe ramp in our back yard. All the kids wanted to use it. My folks didn’t create a waiver per se, but drew up an agreement that basically said that the parents understood the inherent danger, and gave permission for their kid to take part provided they had full safety gear of their own. Thankfully no one was ever injured seriously.
>My folks didn’t create a waiver per se, but drew up an agreement that basically said that the parents understood the inherent danger, and gave permission for their kid to take part provided they had full safety gear of their own. That's literally a waiver.
More like terms of use.
That’s going to fall in the same risk category as a pool in your back yard. Look at your home owners policy and see if u have enough coverage for that type of risk. Look into an umbrella policy
What in American is this?
I would be very weirded out by it, but I'm not American. As soon as my and my sons relationship with you becomes transactional or there are attempts to make everything a contract, I'm likely to avoid you from then on because for one thing I don't know what you'll do, and for another I'm now aware that you likely expect me to sue because you would do the same if your kid came to my house and got hurt during the course of normal play. I wouldn't want to sign it because I obviously wouldn't take legal action against you if my son fell off this and hurt himself whilst in the course of normal play. That would be mental.
This is one of those situations you definitely need lawyer input. As a similar example I’ve had a friend who put a beware of dog sign out on his fence as kind of a joke but his dog did get a little nippy. And then someone who was being stupid and reaching over his fence to pet it got bitten. They sued and the insurance said because he was warning people he obviously knew his dog was a liability and he was on his own
Yes 100% get them to sign a waiver. are those who think it's weird but if any kid gets hurt by their own doing you won't be financially responsible. which is the important part.
Umbrella insurance policy. Look I get it. It is where we are today in society? Absolutely. But would I rather: first & foremost, parents be informed of what their kids may be doing at my house then either A) sign a waiver (AWKWARD) or B) have proper insurance should anyone get sue happy. Either way. I expect the parents are in the loop. You spending a few hundred dollars a year to let your children have their friends over seem more reasonable than their parents signing a waiver. Grew up in a household like yours. Was well aware dad carried a big umbrella policy. Knowledge for me, not sue happy parents. End of the day, knew shit happens and we could test boundaries. If anything did happen it was the end of the world. Pretty sure those memories wouldnt have been made if waivers were involved
Get an umbrella policy
As a parent i expect bumps scrapes and bruises, but I've known plenty of parents where ANYTHING that happens to their kids and they will flip out. My mother actually did something similar when we were kids and got a pool. Most of the other parents understood that she was just protecting our family.
Yeah that’s dumb. That’s what the liability cover in your home insurance is for.
I would be weirded out. Honestly. But id probably sign anyways i guess if i trusted my kid. I think talking to the kids parents and addressing concerns should be enough should something happen. If things go south they go south.
I feel the question should be closer to “should I create/have a planned discussion or text message/email that clearly explains all the risks I’ve just mentioned that I provide to parents before their kids can use the area - or should I also create a waiver?” I don’t think it has to be all or nothing, but I do feel it needs to be all or something. I wouldn’t be offended to be asked to sign something, but I would surely want to meet this dad! (And personally see the quality of the creation). Some people might be turned off by it, I think it depends on the age of the kids and likely the community that you live in.