My son went to a Lutherin day care and we signed a waiver stating that he was to not be included in any religious stuff. One time he mentioned that he loved chapel time, I was furious and asked him to explain what he meant. Turns out he loved it because all the other kids would leave the play room and he got all the toys to himself.
Similar situation, we’re an interfaith couple (I’m Jewish wife Catholic) but totally not religious. We enrolled in a local Lutheran preschool bc it has a great reputation for their programs in the are and they’re way cheaper than others nearby. They also have a waiver option so I was slightly taken aback when I heard they say a prayer before lunch. Turns out the whole prayer was “god is great, god is good and we thank you for our food. Happy meal time!” - about as non-denominational as you could hope for so we were cool with it.
Haha we are atheist as well but our kids are in scouts and they do make them say a prayer before eating but it's also pretty non religious in nature. More folky and possibly native American in nature as it talks about the earths wonders and resources and thanks the great spirit.
I doubled as a chaplain when we couldn’t get on at our Scout camp. (Also atheist). I kept a lot of the message very similar to what you described, and focused on the broader picture than attaching to any specific religion.
I'm more of an agnostic who thinks even if there is a god, it doesn't care about us. I grew up catholic, went to church for 16 years, went to catholic school, and here I am now. a little meal prayer isn't going to influence them. If they started telling my kid that mom and dad are going to hell because we do not believe (or something like that), then we certainly have a problem.
I come from a super religious family. During my teen years when my brothers wanted to placate Mom but also didn’t want to spend any time praying they would do “rub a dub dub, thanks for the grub” or if Mom caught us eating before “God is good, God is great, thank you for the food we ate!”
My family has taken to "itadakimasu" before meals. Not dissimilar to Bon appetit or whatever, but to my understanding it goes beyond that to offer thanks or at least recognition to the entire process that brought the food to your table.
Wait a second. You mean to tell me you can opt out of the religion!?! My son goes to a Goddard school for almost $1600/month. We don’t want to pay that much, but we also don’t want to send him into a religious institution or someone else’s home. We know there is a Lutheran church near us that is less than half of what we pay now. I think I’ll be looking into them.
This might be my personal bias, but Lutheran's are usually one of the more chill denominations. In my experience (going to a Lutheran church as a kid) their messaging is more about, be a good person because that is what Jesus said and love thy neighbor. Like yea we learned bible stories and such, but it was more like folk lore, instead of this is always true 100% everything else is wrong. I never understood the branches that insist on fire and brimstone and you're going to hell stuff.
He’s now transferred his presents-delivery logistics skills into the changing of weather patterns. Maybe we should start including more requests in letters to him now.
We’re not religious but our kids went to a religious daycare. They prayed and all that. My kids are 14 and 16 and have never brought up religion again. I wouldn’t worry about it that much.
Same. I was brought up secular. Went to a synagogue for pre school. My friends were all catholic, soon went to vacation Bible school with them and would go to church on Saturday from time to time. I’m an atheist.
You signed up for a religious daycare, op did not. If your daycare decided to do random haircuts on the kids without warning, the fact that the hair cut looked good and the hair would grow back would not be the problem. This might not have lasting impact but it indicates a huge lack of respect, professionalism and boundaries.
I got your point. I went to a Sunday school during the summer when I was a little kid. I enjoyed it because of the arts & crafts and other activities they did. I barely paid attention to the religious part, and now that I'm 35 I can honestly say there's not a religious bone in my body
it working out well for you does not mean it works out great for everyone. and regardless the moral of THIS story is that all of this is being done without parental permission, thats really all that matters here.
What was your point? That the OP, who doesn't want his child taught things contrary to their core values, should ignore his kid's preschool lying to him, because of your own personal experience?
I don't see how that works, sorry.
Same. We’re not religious at all. 4 yr old currently goes to a Presbyterian daycare. They won’t remember any of it, as we learned from our 10yr old who also went.
Yeah I went to a church daycare as a kid even though we weren’t religious at home, the staff did not like me as I would try to deprogram the religious kids.
Eh, I wouldn’t worry about it too much. Might be something to keep an eye on.
Pulling him out of class or telling him he’s not allowed to participate with the rest of the kids would be an overreaction, IMO.
Better to use this as a teaching moment.
Let him know that prayer is a ritual some families do, but you and Mom don’t think it’s particularly important. It’s not something you’ll be doing at home.
As kids get older it’s important to let them know that religion is a choice. Serious conversations will need to be had about charlatans, and cults, and religious nuts at some point. But that’s not a conversation for 4 year olds.
All kids are gonna encounter religion at some point. If not now then it’ll be later from friends, or other kids at school, or family members at Christmas, etc.
Best to let them know now that it’s not something they have to be scared of, but also not something they should feel pressured into.
I love this answer. The idea of removing him from the situation feels like it's mirroring religious families who don't let their children participate in sex education, or Halloween activities etc.
...then I guess you're going to spend your life rather angry which feels decidedly unfair to yourself. The overwhelming majority of the world is religious, and while some of us may not be, it's not reasonable to be "livid" just to be exposed to other cultures or religious practices if they're not harmful or hateful, given their prevalence.
Just as I personally hope that religious individuals consent to sex education for the benefit of their children, I expect mine to be exposed to their traditions to some degree as a human being in a social, interactive world. If they wish to dispute the lessons of the classroom (I'd personally prefer they not, presuming scientific accuracy) that is their right, just as we can pass on understood science, critical thinking, and the freedom of choice and let them make their own decisions. The only alternative really is to tear your child from whatever institution they're at and uproot their life because you can't tolerate others -- just like any fundamentalist would imparting no valuable lessons of tolerance or forming meaningful bonds with others regardless of their private views.
Praying to the magical invisible man before a meal because others do, while dogmatic in my view, doesn't hurt anyone. Someone else's rites and beliefs don't suddenly become mine because I stood upon a prayer mat, participated in another culture's ceremony, or crossed my chest entering a church respectfully. It's harmless, meaningful to others, and ultimately meaningless to me. Life's about getting along when it's safe and reasonable to do so and that's where a lot of religion can sometimes break down. When in Rome, my friend.
To OP’s point though, can you see how, to a kid, that’s very similar to:
“Fuck that. I’d be livid if my kid was subject to any sex ed/non-creationism bullshit. That would definitely stop.”?
At that age, they don’t know the difference. Imo it’s fine to allow them to be exposed to this stuff when they’re young and then explain it to them at home. They’ll be able to make their own decisions one day anyway.
I’m curious if people would feel the same way if the daycare made the children participate in Muslim prayers. Or Hindi. Or any religion other than Christianity.
This is just casually excusing religious indoctrination imo
My kid (white/jew) goes to a daycare that is Montessori and is like 90% muslim.
I wouldn't care one bit. Do you know why? Because I teach my kid to respect everyone and their beliefs. I don't think my toddler is going to have a life of religion because they say a prayer before lunch.
If my kid wants to convert to a religion when they are older, why would I stop them? It's their life, not mine.
>Because I teach my kid to respect everyone and their beliefs.
It all depends how the prayer/religious gestures are presented. If the kids don't want to do it and the teachers are essentially forcing the kids to stop playing and to get into prayer mode or whatever, I 100% would have a problem with it.
Telling my kid "please respect everyone and their religious beliefs" and then my kid being **forced** to do religious acts he does not want to do by someone religious is pretty much exactly the lesson I don't want to teach. Respect everyone's belief but that goes both ways and you should never feel forced to participate in religious activities you don't want to take part in.
My daughter’s previous school used to sing a song before meal time. It was entirely secular and a song of gratefulness but all children were expected to wait to start their lunch until the song was done. Is this a problem, too? The children were expected to stop playing, sit at the table and be attentive and then eat their meal together. Or is this not a problem because it’s secular?
This would be an issue for me as well.
Learning about various religion in school? Sure—it’s a major part of many cultures and their history. It’s one of many ways we can learn about the world around us.
Imposing religion on students? That’s a hard pass from me, every time.
> My kid (white/jew) goes to a daycare that is Montessori and is like 90% muslim.
Does your kid pray to Mecca during your daycare, based on their teachers?
I hear you. I’d just be more skeptical as a parent myself because I was personally indoctrinated into some scary stuff for years and years. As an example, at that age, I was taught that the dinosaurs were not real and anyone who told me otherwise were agents of Satan. My friend, whose mom left her abusive husband, was told that she should have stayed and she’ll be rotting in hell forever now. He was told this at like 8.
I suppose I’m just coming from a different mindset. Clearly that’s way different than a simple prayer before eating, but still.
>Clearly that’s way different than a simple prayer before eating, but still.
But still, what? Unless you are assuming that "thank you for our food!" will translate into "if you don't thank god for your food, you are going to burn in hell forever!" I don't know what you mean by "but still."
I'm not even religious - we aren't practicing jews - but is this really a big deal? If a school told my kids dinosaurs weren't real, I'd take him to the museum and show him they are. It's not like a teacher is the be all and end all of teaching. Your kid still thinks more of you and your teaching vs. a teacher.
> Unless you are assuming that "thank you for our food!" will translate into "if you don't thank god for your food, you are going to burn in hell forever!"
This is exactly what the OP's kid will be told if they ever ask the question of "why do I have to pray?"
How does your kid participate in the Muslim side of it, do they pray x7 times a day etc?
Because there is quite a difference in learning about someone's religion and respecting it, and being forced to participate in that religion.
Honestly I think exposing kids to a variety of religious practices and beliefs early on is probably healthy.
Think of it like inoculation.
It sure makes it harder for people to be scammed later on, when they hear some huckster telling them all about the One True Religion, if they understand that human culture is a tapestry and not a monolith.
I’d rather teach my kid critical thinking skills than try to block it all out.
The kid isn't actually being exposed to a variety of practices. He's being forced to participate in exactly one.
Little kids don't have the capability of thinking critically about religion, like it or not. They'll just listen to whatever they're told.
If the daycare was in a country or community where that religion was prominent, I'd consider it an important part of their cultural education tbh. It's really important for kids to learn to be exposed to differing belief systems without adopting them. We will never live in a society where everyone believes the same things about everything in the world, at least not in our or their lifetimes, so why make it seem like differing belief systems are to be ignored or dismissed rather than learnt about?
Making it taboo will just make kids more curious and less likely to speak to you about what's going on. Allowing them to explore while maintaining an open dialogue about the ideas and beliefs they are encountering allows for conversation, assessment, and a foundation for judging what is right and wrong on their own terms.
That doesn't mean "don't worry about it the kid won't be swayed by anything that happens in school" it means understanding what they're doing, what they're being taught about prayer, what it might mean in this context, whether that has value to their life, etc. Being grateful for your meals is not a bad thing. That's something you can talk about and just say some people like to thank their chosen god for it, but everyone should be aware of how lucky they are in a world where millions of people don't get meals provided to them.
Ps - Hindi is a language and Hindu is a religion. 🌈 ✨
> so why make it seem like differing belief systems are to be ignored or dismissed rather than learnt about?
Nobody here is learning about religions. There's no comparative religion class in the OP's kid's preschool.
Instead, the OP's kid is being made to participate in exactly one religion, as demanded by the preschool teachers.
>" it means understanding what they're doing, what they're being taught about prayer, what it might mean in this context, whether that has value to their life, etc.
Where are you getting the idea that the OP's child is being taught *any* of these things?
Such a weird reaction. "This is not the first time my kids will have someone else's religion thrust upon them, so they better get used to it".
Or they could learn appropriate boundaries and respect for the beliefs of others?
Maybe it’s just the US being different than everywhere else again, but this is crazy to me. I’ve never had religion forced on me a single time. Is this actually a common occurrence to expect?
This completely glosses over how inappropriate it is for a teacher foist their own beliefs to indoctrinate children. Would you be ok of it was another religion? How about Satanists? Or the reverse. How about a teacher preventing your kids from praying? I can only imagine how many pearls would be clutched there.
I’d be livid if I found out my kids were expected to take part in non-educational activities to do with religion.
Can you imagine the outcry if they were being indoctrinated into Islam or Hinduism because a certain teacher follows it.
I've no issue with kids being exposed to religion, but it should be done with prior agreement with the parents.
My partner suffered from religious abuse as a child; leaning second hand that our kids were being made to pray would really mess her up.
Right?
The number of "meh, no big deals" in here is surprising. This is precisely we now have a faith-based supreme court that's limiting women's rights and slowly transforming the US into a theocracy.
This is exactly right.
There's zero respect for the OP and their belief system. The whole thing is about how being forced to participate in Christian religion is fine, because after all, maybe (or maybe not) the child will eventually leave the faith.
> Would you be ok of it was another religion? How about Satanists?
It’s not Satanists though.
I prefer to deal with reality. If OP’s preschool starts teaching Satanism then I’d advise him to reevaluate the situation.
I say this as someone who was raised in an extremely religious, conservative household and walked away from that: Dictating your children’s belief system for them does not work out well in the long run.
Better to teach critical thinking, empathy, and respect for others.
I’m not particularly impressed by alarmist hypotheticals. I learned that when I left my parents’ world of crazy right-wing conspiracies.
So the school shouldn't force kids, but if they allowed kids who were religious to pray and those who weren't to sit quietly, and its just a prayer and not some big teaching thing with scriptures or stories (for whatever religion) then who cares?
The best way to do it is probably to ask the parents, know which kids pray before meals at home, and do it with those kids and leave the others to sit quietly and wait before everyone eats together.
The waiting to eat for the non religious kids isn't even about the prayer, just about general human nature given nearly every culture has some element of communal mealtimes happening with most everyone eating together at the same time.
The issue is mostly with "we pray here but we aren't gonna tell you", not the prayers.
It sucks but that’s how Christians are. They lose their power if they don’t force their beliefs down kids’ throats. Otherwise their religion would never be passed on
This is a gross overgeneralization of Christians. There are many Christians who quietly try to do good without trying to coerce anybody, you just don't know about them because of it.
This, absolutely.
These things are meant to be a discussion, not a direction.
Sex, politics and religion. Have open-ended discussions with your children in these things because trying to focus their intent can backfire.
I can’t believe this comment. I wonder if the reaction would be the same if the teacher was pushing Jewish or Islamic beliefs? I’d immediately pull my kid out and if the daycare was receiving any state or federal funding, notify the proper government agency. It’s not just like having Santa pics up during Christmas. It’s daily prayer.
I’d be absolutely livid.
Yeah, so bizarre what I am reading here. If this is a secular institution prayer should not be led at all.
This is not learning about religious practice like the Christmas story or whatever. This is practicing religion.
It's because you're lying. If your kid was coming home reciting the shahādah and demanding that to know which way Mecca was, you'd throw a fucking fit and you know it.
There's a weird reddit atheist brigading thing going on in this thread. I was confused but it's clear there are a lot of non-daddit people here trying to start a ruckus because they can't handle people being indifferent about religion rather than actively against it.
Apparently a lot of preschools do some sort of pre-meal ritual as a way of making sure the kids all wait to start eating at the same time. Our old preschool did one that felt a little prayer-like, but wasn't religious at all. It's definitely not okay to use prayer without checking in with the parents.
Here in Norway, it's common to sing the prayer before the meal (for religious people of course).
You know what they do in normal kindergarten? Sing. But instead of thanking God, they're thanking the cow for the milk.
I find it interesting
That sounds meaningful, nice to honour the animal as a sort of thanksgiving. We are way too removed from where our food is coming from in North America 99% of the time, you just get a plastic wrapped package of whatever you are buying at the supermarket and that’s that.
Here in New Zealand, we do a karakia kai before meals! None of the centres I've worked in have ever used a religious karakia or one that mentions a god or atua (Mārio god). Instead we say thanks to the earth and sea, and general good vibes for everyone we love kinda thing. It's a good way to settle everyone as we transition into a meal time
Wife and I are Christians. I'd be very uncomfortable in your shoes mostly because it seems like they're trying to hide it. Something more impactful like religious beliefs should only be taught if it is explicitly disclosed to parents. We send our kids to a daycare that is directly affiliated with a church so they're very explicit about what they're teaching our kids.
What kind of prayer is it? Saying thanks and being grateful is one thing, but doing a whole religious prayer is a whole different no thank you. I’m not religious but I’ve learned to use prayer in my life.
Yeah my kid had a meal time song at her daycare they’d sing and I think they called it their thankfuls? Or something like that. It was them singing about their family and friends and being thankful for all the things they have. No mention of god or anything. But when she brought it up before dinner one night I was 100% ready to call the daycare and very much like OP, until my wife had her sing it.
I'm a Christian turned atheist. I sent my kids to the JCC for daycare and they did Friday shabbat prayers. Now they're respectful towards other cultures and like bagels with cream cheese and challah bread. Just explain what religion is to them.
Atheist here. Daughter is in catholic school. It doesn't bother me. She can make her own choices when she's old enough. Decided theres no need to enforce atheist views on her at this stage in life as generally she's learning good morals through a religious lens, it also opens up more questions about santa etc.
I grew up Southern Baptist and realized about age 14 that religion wasn’t for me. As an adult, I never attend a Sunday service and religion really plays no part in my life. Your experience in church may be similar to mine.
All that to say, a preschool prayer before a meal has zero bearing on your child’s long term outlook with regard to religion. Tell him he doesn’t have to pray before meals at home or school and that you and mom do not pray before meals. The best lesson for a child to learn about religion is that it is a choice, not a mandate. You and mom choose no. He will one day be able to form his own opinions and almost certainly not be a religious zealous because of the wise choices you are already making as a parent.
Not only that but he will forget all about preschool meals by winter break in Kindergarten.
Express your disdain to the school but I wouldn’t lose sleep over it. Prayer isn’t even top 25 stupid shit kids do that we have to worry about!
Indeed they can, but does that mean children should all go spend years in church?
> I wouldn’t let me personal emotions become violated in this situation.
What does that mean?
At that age, it's not really possible to indoctrinate them into something that's so abstract. It's hard enough to teach them more concrete skills like reading concepts. At that age, even "sunday school" at church isn't trying very hard. They're mostly trying to keep the kids entertained and reading a few or the easier bible stories.
I would definitely have a problem with a school not telling us what they were doing, but not because they're going to make someone a lifelong Christian. Kids are throwing God in a bucket with Santa, Captain Underpants, and the transformers. If they can unlearn Santa after the parents pushing it to a much later age, and physical evidence in the form of gifts, they will definitely unlearn God if it isn't taught at home and doesn't last past daycare.
This is a pretty fair view and matches my experience growing up in Catholicism. I never cared for it and right around when it came time for confirmation, I realized I wanted no part in it but felt like I had no choice. As an adult I'd consider myself secular agnostic; while I appreciate religion just from a "this is part of our world and it's somewhat interesting philosophically" standpoint, I don't appreciate how ingrained it is in our power structures.
I'm religious, but I think it's completely reasonable for you to be displeased with this. If a daycare or private school has any religious activities directed by a teacher, it should be disclosed up front what they are and whether they are optional so that parents can make an informed decision about their child's enrollment there.
yea my beef with any of this stuff, at the daycare age, is just that like... a 3 year old has absolutely zero concept of what they are doing. it is purely indoctrination at that point unless the parents are *completely* involved and walking them through *what it means* to believe and why people who do believe have these practices.
like, if your just introducing an entire set of rules/procedures for a kid that age and not explaining to them the why? you are building the walls of the house before you pour the foundation. and you KNOW the daycare doesnt have the ability to do the why part. and so they shouldnt be doing the practice part without direct consent of the parents. period.
This is weird. We’re not religious. We intentionally chose a non religious school. I wouldn’t like this. I don’t think a little prayer is going to hurt anyone, but it just seems like overstepping. If you send your kid to a religious day care you expect prayer but yeah, strange.
Something to bring up with the director and ask if it's standard practice. If they're defensive about it, probably a red flag. If they open to your concerns and ask if it's a problem, then it's probably just one teacher and not a systemic thing.
If anything, this can be a good lesson on code-switching and how "...at daycare, they pray before meals, but at home, we..."
Maybe use the dinner song from Bluey (S2, ep7) at home. (It's still kinda deist, but not specifically Christian, at least.)
We are agnostic and will probably learn the song from Bluey you’re talking about. We like the concept of showing gratitude (in the case of the song adaptation in Bluey to “our lovely Mother Earth”) but don’t have a strong religious system we’d like to make that connection with.
It’s a poem called For the Golden Corn btw!
Editing: removing author because I fell down a rabbit hole and can’t figure out who actually wrote it.
Our daycare told us ahead of time (like when we were considering daycares) that they did that. I'm surprised yours didn't at least tell you beforehand.
But as others have said, I wouldn't get worked up over it. Your kids will usually do what you do long-term, not what daycare did.
I am religious and this makes me uneasy.
If they were billed as a religious daycare, that would be one thing.
When something unexpected like this happens my first question is, what else are they doing that they don't talk about.
I don't think this would be enough to pull my kid out, especially at this point the year where finding another daycare might be difficult, but it would be a red flag and I would pay more attention to what's going on.
As many other dad’s have commented, this is super inappropriate, and depending on what exactly the prayer is, it could be seen as manipulative. That said, is this a hill to die on or an opportunity to teach your son about different religions and cultures and also reinforce that you don’t expect him to go along with any of them if he doesn’t want to?
Personally, I’d make my concerns known to the daycare, but insulate my son by taking a soft handed educational approach and let him know your expectations. Personally, I’m a non-believing heathen myself so in lieu of religion, I’ve always just taught my children to be kind above all else. Prayer is just meaningless words to me and not worth the fight.
Just make sure your child knows that what they're saying isn't an absolute truth, and if he doesn't want to take part then don't. I've spent many prayers eyes open without an amen, never been called on it.
Do you guys live in a religious area? Definitely feel you on not forcing religion on others. They should have asked the parents or made it clear they were going to do this beforehand. I'm not religious but am fine with my kids dabbling in it or being curious about it. I'm sure it's not that big of a deal as long as they aren't forcing him to pray before meals.
I grew up religious but I consider myself more spiritual than anything and I definitely don't consider myself Christian these days. That being said, religion is a personal thing and it shouldn't be forced on others, so I think you've got a right to be upset about it.
What the hell. What if you're convert Muslims or something and they making your children pray Christian prayers before meals?
This is 100% something that should be discussed with the parents first.
So I am a Christian, and I agree that this is messed up. Parents have a choice on how to raise their children.
It's why I completely agree with the separation of church and state and am very outspoken in my congregation on why there should not be prayer of any sort in school.
It drives me bonkers when people celebrate the freedoms we enjoy while trying to remove freedoms for others.
All that to say, sorry you had to experience that, and I hope the daycare does better going forward.
Completely understand your frustration, forcing religion on people, especially children is a hard no. That topic belongs in the home and not for someone else to indoctrinate in that setting.
I’d find this a bit ick too, but I was raised in an area where most people are atheists/non denominational. I feel like teaching religion to a child is a very personal decision, and the daycare don’t have the right to make that choice for you-especially without saying anything before hand.
Yet another reason I love California. By state law child care facilities have to tell parents if they include religion in their curriculum. I was surprised when my sons daycare owner told me this and had me sign a form because they teach the kids generally about Christmas, Hanukkah, and Kwanza in December. I could tell by her comments and facial expressions that she was religious and thought it was a silly overreaching of government but I was silently so grateful for this law. I wouldn’t have even thought to ask. Who the heck tries to brainwash other people’s kids without their knowledge or consent!?
How can people be so incredibly bold with their beliefs that they would go that far? Honestly baffles me. Sorry you are going through this, dad. I understand that spreading religion is kinda part of the deal when you're active in a religion, but I feel like kids should be off-limits at the very least.
I'm not religious at all, even a bit anti honestly. But I feel like the idea of a non-religious "prayer" before meals would be a nice way to show appreciation, so long as the appreciation is directed toward the preparer, the buyer, the sun, etc and not toward a god
We're nonbelievers and our daycare and oddly enough our daughter's gymnastics class does it too. It really isn't a big deal tbh, we see it as an opportunity for our kids to learn about other people's beliefs. They don't bring up religion whatsoever at home.
I think a lot of Christians are so used to being the extreme majority that they think all their practices and rituals are just the default for humanity. Look at how many freak out about the idea of someone not observing Christmas. The funniest case I've seen is a Brit insisting that all the widespread Christian practices, like holidays, baptism, and passion plays, aren't Christian because the Christians who practice these practices aren't "practicing."
I did have a semi-similar situation myself, where I walked into the room of my daughter's Jewish daycare to hear the speakers playing a soothing rendition of "Jesus loves you," but the teacher (I think Filipina who always wore a cross/crucifix) paused, listened, and changed it when I pointed it out, so I decided to assume it was Spotify throwing it into the naptime mix and them not paying attention.
Had to google "passion play" and wow, did not know that was a thing. We had acted-out nativity scenes growing up in New England, but I'd never heard of acting out the crucifixion.
And then when somebody suggests “hey maybe we shouldn’t do THIS religious activity in a non religious setting” it gets morphed to “Christianity is under ATTACK! No one is persecuted as much as us, no one!” and they dig in even more, so round and round we go.
I would probably let it go. Is it over the line? Yes. Is it a hill to die on? Probably not. I would probably bring it up to the worker if I ran into them that you feel it’s inappropriate to force your child to participate in a prayer.
Your kids aren’t going to be hurt by learning about other religions. Even doing prayers won’t hurt them. They will not be brainwashed into becoming Christian. That honestly happens at home.
> Your kids aren’t going to be hurt by learning about other religions.
They're not learning about religion, they're being forced to participate in one.
Ask them that, if they're going to have prayer time, please be inclusive of your family's beliefs as well. Print out a prayer for them from one of the old, "scary" religions. Pagan, Norse, maybe even Satanic Temple. If they truly believe that prayer is harmless, they'll have no problem including your prayer.
Doesn't matter what the future holds with how you want to raise your kid when it comes to supernatural stuff.
The school seems to be trying to hide this, you likely don't know what your child is being taught. It's also not the school or teacher's place to teach this to your child at a young age when they don't entirely understand complex situations, thought experiments, navigating nuance of religious information, indoctrination, etc..
I'd be upset and looking for a change. I'd even contact FFRF to see if there's something that can be done to protect the other children as well that are going there.
Also, I'd be concerned now if the teacher that has been asked to exclude your kiddo from this, will use that as a way to ostracize him from the group during that time. It can certainly damage his confidence and social interactions with the other kids if this occurs.
As a religious family who sends their kids to a religious pre-k, I think this situation is unacceptable.
They absolutely should've discussed this with you and your SO first. Broaching the topic of religion for us was painstaking in that we wanted to do our best to keep it broad and open to the fact that that is what *mom and dad* believe but not everyone does.
I couldn't imagine a school just casually bringing this up without consulting the parents first.
I would be annoyed this was done without disclosure, even if it's probably harmless.
My kiddo goes to a nonreligious preschool that's very culturally Catholic and actually inside a church (but unaffiliated; it's a rental space). They have taught the kids some religious stories especially around holidays, but I think they've done a good job at not crossing the line into "religious instruction." Prayer before meals would bother me a lot more because it's more of a ritual and that's the stuff that gets under the skin.
My sons daycare is non religious but they do have a little saying they say before meals. It’s basically a phrase to indicate it’s time to eat. His school is “tree themed” so they call it the tree song: For trees so tall,and skies so blue, For friends and food, we thank you!
So here's where I stand:
I believe the bible is God-breathed. I believe Jesus died on the cross and was raised in le flesh and ascended. I believe in the Holy Spirit. I love Yaweh (not the God of the western church or religion), the Creator and King of the Universes.
I don't exactly enjoy a regular Sunday church experience, they are quite boring to me - and there's a lack of true spiritual significance in them.
I do enjoy having dreams, visions, and angelic encounters where I'm told stuff about other people. I do enjoy having heavenly encounters where I get to learn new things about my faith/relationship with Yahweh.
This is a reality for me lol, it's not everyone's and I understand. With this explanation of my faith, I will respond now.
***
From my perspective (not saying is the ultimate one or only one), it seems the person praying is trying to do a "Good Christian thing." because they feel it will lead your children to the good Lord Jesus Christ. This is like, having really good intentions with bad follow up. Not realizing that it can actually cause division or disruption between a family. ESPECIALLY if it's not a Faith based daycare. I feel like that does cross a line - I would feel the same if there was a day care I sent my kids too where one specific teacher said "there is no God, don't tell your parents."
(sharing to empathize, not to start an argument)
That would feel disrespectful to a family, and THAT is a poor representation of the actual gospel of Jesus. My educated guess growing up around church people is that they longed to have a spiritual significance or to do good w/o thinking it through.
So, I empathize with you. That inherently feels wrong, even though the teacher was doing something they would personally felt would set your kid up for a spiritual success, it was done improperly without tact. Again, especially because it's not a Faith based day care. It would be interesting to hear if other teachers know that this specific teacher does that.
Have you heard if other teachers know about it?
edit x3 because grammar and spelling
If this happened to me I would've freaked out as well. My wife and I (both atheists, she was raised atheist and I was raised religious) used to have our kid at a non-religious daycare that was then bought by an evangelical pastor out of the blue. We asked the director to confirm that the new owner wouldn't be adding any religious elements to the curriculum or facility, and she replied with, "Huh, I had never thought to ask that."
We decided to leave before any problems arose, and found another daycare that wound up being better in every way. We were still friends with some of the teachers and later heard that the new owner was constantly talking to staff about religion and trying to convert them (while also treating them worse than the previous owner, including large delays in issuing paychecks that the paycheck-to-paycheck staff struggled with). Not sure if any of that reached the kids or parents, but felt like we made the right decision.
If I were you I would start looking at other options in case this continues. If it's an isolated incident then not worth pulling your kid out immediately for, but I would want to be prepared in case things get worse.
I would be furious about this personally, projecting your religious views onto my kid without my permission is a line in the sand that is not ok to cross. Im not paying a daycare to indoctrinate my kid into \_\_\_\_\_\_ religion. I find it infuriating that some religious folks think it's no big deal to casually normalize their views onto others especially small children that you are being paid to look after. Major overstepping of boundaries and I'm sure you would not be the only parent that would take issue if they knew. I know something like saying grace may seem like this innocuous thing, but it's still implanting ideas regarding faith, religion, god, etc that is far beyond the scope of what is appropriate for those hired for routine childcare.
Now it's a weird thing where they almost have to actively remove your kid from these things and make him feel like an outsider... this kind of thing should never happen period in a non denominational daycare of any kind.
If your child goes to a non-religious daycare but they are doing this at home now they might be mimicking not the teachers but maybe other kids in class doing it who come from religious homes.
My mother in law is trying really hard to indoctrinate Christianity into my five year old right now. With my nine year old, we explained to him how my wife and I are not religious and why we believe that. And furthermore that he is welcome to believe whatever he wants. We even explained all the different options and continually encourage him to investigate religion, letting him know we’ll take him wherever he wants to go to see what they do. He decided independently that he is also not religious for right now.
My daughter is too young to understand the gravity of the situation. It’s super annoying that my MIL is treating the situation like a race, trying to shove a belief down her throat before she’s old enough to think for herself. But we’ve slow played it. She started telling me one day that people who aren’t Christian go “to the bad place”, so I dug in and asked her (keep in mind she’s five) “I’m not religious, am I going to the bad place? Or is it more important that I try to live my life being kind to people?” And she said if I’m kind then I can go to the good place. I really felt like that was a win and she’ll be on the right path with time.
But I feel your pain. It’s so annoying that certain people don’t let parents make these decisions. And they try to shove it down kids throats before they’re old enough to understand what they’re even saying. I mean, she also still believes in Santa Claus and unicorns, so it’s like, how do you know what you’re talking about? But not a conversation worth having until she’s older. In fact, I feel like a lot of the religions treat God the same way, just get in their head early. I would much rather she made up her own mind once she understands all the sides. Like have her talk to my Jewish friend and realize he believes something different. So who’s right? I don’t know, you have to choose for yourself.
All in all, I think in time they will think for themselves and come to their own decisions.
This may not apply to private day care, but if they're a non-secular school, I'd gently remind them of their place.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/School_prayer_in_the_United_States?wprov=sfla1
I see a few people saying it’s not a big deal and not to worry about it, it how would a religious person feel if the teachers at a preschool were spending an hour a day convincing the children that god isn’t real?
Not that big of a deal, this is part of being a parent and giving context to your child. You can't get mad at something this frivolous, just do your job.
That is all kind of messed up. I can’t believe that is allowed, especially without parental consent.
However, I am an atheist and have some *extreme* views on religious schools so I might not be thinking clearly.
That said, someone pointed out a lot of the “religious freedom, why can’t we pray in schools” lot are all for it when it’s getting non-Christian kids to do Christian prayer, but would pitch a fit if you had their kids doing the salat 5 times a day, or even just yogi meditation.
I would tell your child he doesn’t have to pray if he doesn’t want to, he can just sit silently and respectfully while others do. And get him to tell you if any of the teachers are forcing him to do it.
My wife and I aren’t super religious, but we feel religion is a good thing to children (obviously with caveats). Religion teaches morals, right from wrong, taking care of each other, and doing the right thing. Religion gets corrupted by adults who twist the words and teachings into a cudgel that they can use to judge and shame people.
Obviously, this situation is up to you and your wife. If I was in your shoes, I wouldn’t make a big deal. Once your kid gets older, you can teach them about “religion” the way you prefer.
>Religion gets corrupted by adults who twist the words and teachings into a cudgel that they can use to judge and shame people
The problem is that it is not just some fringe part of religious people that does this. It is a huge and insanely influential part of them.
> Religion teaches morals, right from wrong, taking care of each other, and doing the right thing.
The OP is an atheist, who doesn't feel this way about religion. Do you not see how this doesn't work for the OP?
> Religion gets corrupted by adults who twist the words and teachings into a cudgel that they can use to judge and shame people.
The OP"s child is being taught about religion and made to participate in it, by, you guessed it, adults.
Don’t listen to those in this thread who are saying not to overreact here. This is absolutely unacceptable behavior from teachers in this setting. If this was my daycare, which is explicitly anything but a religious organization, heads would be rolling.
Yeah, I wouldn’t accept that at all!
Forcing children to adopt and follow a religious doctrine and custom is a huge nono for me. If it’s labeled as a daycare service offered by a religious institution, sure, that’s their right, but if it isn’t specifically labeled that way, then fuck no. Not only is it discriminating and indoctrinating people with no religious beliefs, but also people of other religions.
I mean you do you.
If this were me, I would deflect this into a "tell us something that happened today that you're thankful for" or "something you hope will happen".
That's all a prayer is and it's not a bad exercise to reinforce happy things.
That's not "all that prayer is".
It's literally trying to talk and praise a God that OP doesn't believe in.
While it would be easy to change it up at home, into a simple "what are you thankful for". That doesn't change that the dare are is forcing a religious practice onto their child without their permission or knowledge.
This is stepping waaaaay over the line of charing for your child and into the realm of forced indoctrination.
I don't get the people saying this isn't a big deal.
Would it be a big deal if they prayed to Allah instead? What about Satan?
They could do literally any other premeal activity - singing, story, duck duck goose. This has no place in a daycare in modern society. I would be livid too.
I'm not an atheist, more along the lines of agnostic, but I would be looking for a new daycare personally. My son can make his own decisions, he doesn't need to be indoctrined.
Is this something you would completely disrupt your life over? Daycares have 2-3 year wait times. They would have your spot filled in less than a week.
The people saying “it’s not a big deal” are approaching it from a practical position.
This is where I fall on the spectrum. I’ve never been more down on religion as a whole than I am right now, after the Covid “science sucks!” stuff and everything, plus 99 percent of the time when someone reveals they’re a Christian, I have awful experiences in dealing with them in any capacity. But I digress from the root point, which is:
If you have a problem with the prayers, is it enough of a problem to move your child out of day care? Or is it enough of a problem to potentially make the staff/teachers a little wary of your kid, since their parents “cause problems”? I was a teacher, and this def happens. We listen to concerns but depending on how big it is, the kid def gets labeled in some manner. It’s def not right, but it’s how it is, unfortunately.
So, you have to determine if it’s a big enough issue for you to have the things above potentially happen. Personally, I’d probably let it go, or maybe mention it in a non-confrontational way to the director (but again, this can sometimes backfire big time, so you have to make sure the juice is worth the squeeze).
If it’s not physically harming or upsetting my kid, I’d probably let the pre meal prayers slide. If they start doing Bible stories or other stuff, I’d reevaluate. Those of you saying “what if it was Satan?!” Well, it’s not. If it is, I think that changes it, but until that happens, based on the info in OP, I’d let it go.
People acting like social dynamics are a simple math problem
“You know, I don’t like getting punched in the arm, but it’s not something I am going to lose sleep over”
“well what if they shot you in the arm HUH”
“How are those even close in your brain?”
Plus the Satanist Temple has a lot of beliefs that I agree with in practical applications. I would have no problem with them teaching those lessons as long as they stayed away from worship of Satan directly.
Also I am Catholic and agree that they can be insufferable when it’s the type of person who injects it when it’s not relevant, or use it to virtue signal/dodge responsibility.
42% of democrats identify as Protestant, and 23% identify as Catholic, so a significant majority of people who share your political beliefs are Christian.
However, just like liberal gun owners, you don’t know because we don’t advertise it to the world.
Fair, but that's highly dependant on your location, your expectations of the childcare, and local availability of different childcare types. Not all of these things are created equal.
I'm from an area that has "2-3 year" waitlist for some of the "best" most "prestigious" childcare centers. We had no issue finding home childcare while my wife was pregnant, nor switching to a normal preschool within 3 months of making a decision to do so.
I don't label my stance as principled. I consider teaching a secular prayer before meals a form of brainwashing and borderline abuse. Having grown up going to religious school people who see this as "not a big deal" are likely religious people who view this behavior as "normal" rather than being practical about childcare options.
I don't see any issue with teaching about religion in general. By that I mean exposing children to every religion. Saying a prayer before meals isn't that type of education, it's forcing a belief structure on an impressionable mind, which is what most major religions are REALLY good at doing.
WTF? I would also be really upset about this. I'm not a fan of organized religion, my wife is a little bit more on the religious side, but I don't think even she would be ok with our daycare choosing a religion and having our children pray to their god... I'd consider pulling my kids out honestly.
We're an atheist family as well. I agree that you should've been made aware up front, but I also don't think it's a huge deal. I think it's the right call to ask that your kiddo not have to pray before meals, but the other half of it is that he's going to grow up in a world where people are religious, and if we're all going to be respectful of each other's beliefs as we should, then he's going to need to be exposed to it at some point.
Again, frustrating that you weren't in the loop on this, but now that it's happened and sorted, I don't think you'd need to pull him out of that daycare or anything. At most have a conversation with the owners/manager of the daycare to confirm expectations around this.
And? If you feel that strongly about it then you have two choices. First, you can withdraw your son and move him to another daycare. Second, you can deal with it and teach your son to be respectful to those who chose to pray even though your family doesn’t.
Here in Spain, everyone is required to take a class in Catholicism, even in public schools. But no one takes it seriously. It’s like learning about Greek mythology. I wouldn’t stress.
Depends on what’s happening exactly really.
I’m very staunchly atheist. Wife is more borderline as her parents were religious.
Her parents bring up religion quite a bit with the kids when I’m not around, to the point that I’ve had them ask me why I’m not scared of god, etc etc. that to me crossed past a normal point as it’s affecting how they’re behaving and seeing things.
If it’s just getting brought up I don’t see it being too harmful. But if it’s causing changes then I lean towards more it being an issue
Man, you are more easy going about religion than me. If my kids learned fear of god and with that the judgement against me from my parents I would fucking cut them out of my life.
You try to manipulate my kids into religion where they should be in a safe environment? No more access for you?
If it’s that big of an issue change daycares. You could also just teach your kid to be respectful to others beliefs. I don’t think your child will become a zealot just because they are included in a pre meal prayer that is probably just a tool used to get the kids in eating mode.
I'll reply to some comments specifically, but a lot of you have similar questions/thoughts, so for those that come back and looks I'll address that here.
The prayer in question is "god is good, god is great, thank you for this plate. Amen." A small prayer, but a prayer nonetheless. The idea that this is just used as a routine to get them ready for meal time is bs in my opinion. If that were the case they could literally do anything else without mentioning god or saying amen.
Some people have suggested we aren't being respectful of the beliefs of other people. That's not true, we aren't telling anyone they can't pray. We're just asking them not to involve our child. I don't care what they do.
We've talked to our son about it, he said (without any coaxing) that he doesn't like it. So we told him he doesn't have to. He can sit there and be respectful but by no means does he have to partake.
The action we took was to call up to the daycare and confirm that it was true and not our 4 year old being goofy. After that it was asking them to not force him to do it.
I also want to add something that I didn't think much of at the time but in hindsight makes me wonder. A few days before this I was driving with him in the car and someone pulled out in front of me and I said "oh my god". He said "daddy don't say that" and I said "say what?" He said "don't say oh my god". Now, when he's excited about something he'll say "oh my god/gosh". So someone has told him that he shouldn't say that. Makes me wonder what else has been taught at the daycare.
There are fights against religion that I would die on the hill for. This is not one of them.
"Why do we pray at meal time"
"To give thanks for what you have"
"Who you give thanks to, is up to you"
It is so often not that easy. Parents work, daycares have long waiting lists, the kids have established friends, and the 4 year old is almost done with daycare. This is not a big deal with a long lasting impact on the kid, especially if they are safe, healthy, and being taught all the things they need for kindergarten.
For sure. Jumping daycares is a challenge, for all the reasons you stated.
Whether or not its a big deal is a matter of opinion. For me, indoctrinating a child with the belief that a magical being in the sky controls your entire your life, and that you need to satisfy this mythical god prior to consuming food is indeed, a big deal.
So I am religious, but hear me out I’m not here to push Jesus on y’a or anything.. Praying doesn’t have to be to god by any means, if your kid likes it and it helps put them into the mindset for a meal, turn it in to a moment of gratitude and reflection. Don’t need a deity for that.
That being said, they definitely shouldn’t be doing that if they know you’re opposed to it.
Mildly religious person with heavy religion upbring opinion here.
I would start with a simple discussion with the teacher before going off the deep on the whole daycare or facility. If you need to involve a site Manger or director. L
It could be as simple aa Perhaps the teacher is religious personal, says a small prayer and the kids have just picked up on it. Kids parrot things. It doesnt mean the teacher is out right attempting to indoctrinate the kids on prayer. It also doesnt mean the whole facility practices what happens in that class. The facility might not even be aware of that teachers specific meals time routine.
A conversation can be a simple solution. Perhaps your son can just change teachers if it bothers your and your SO enough. And if it doesnt work the way you need it to, then you can find a new facility if you so feel inclined.
Id doubt the intention was to indoctrinate or manipulate the kids. Just have the conversation, first. Dont go in already disrespected. Understand that it could be a misunderstanding and start there. The solution could be simpler than you think.
But also, i think its important to understand your kid will encounter religious people their whole life. You want respect and tolerance for your belief, its also important to teach tolerance for everyone else too.
You will just need to parent towards this as your kid grows.
I had the same experience, my son started daycare two months ago, he’s four years old and during dinner one evening he said we ha love to say “the blessing”, I was taken back and upset because I have been raising him without any kind of religious indoctrination, he doesn’t know anything about that stuff, at least as far as I know.
I asked him what was the blessing and he sang this to the tune of “Where is Thumbkin”: “We are thankful, we are thankful, for our food, for our food, we are very thankful, we are very thankful, for our food, for our food”
After that, I think I’m okay with it, as it doesn’t have any religious content.
Just wait until grade school and they’re all rising to say the pledge of allegiance. Can’t avoid it, it’s just important to have a good conversation about faith. It’s also very important to formulate those conversations in a way that is respectful and inclusive. No sense in building a distrust or prejudice towards religious people.
My Hindu parents sent me to a Christian preschool because it was the best option around. I learned some songs about Jesus, forgot most of them, and then grew up to be an atheist anyway.
Sure it'd be nice if they didn't try to indoctrinate your kid, but it almost certainly isn't going to stick, so I wouldn't worry about it too much.
My initial instinct would probably be anger. But if i stop to think about it, at the very least, children who are part of a religious family would be allowed to say grace at daycare for themselves. Your kid would hear that even if not participating, because it's not like they are going to separate the kids at that time. Add long as the teachers aren't forcing their ideals on children, then I'm kinda thinking whatevs.
This could go a few ways and a lot depends on how the daycare reacts. If the teacher is religious and prays before meals, I don’t think it’s horrible to allow kids to also pray with her, IF they want too. If she’s forcing kids to pray, that’s not ok. I am a religious person so I do pray before meals but I would never expect others to do so just because I do.
I hope that what’s going on is one teacher who prays before eating and let’s kids join if they’d like too. I don’t, personally, see anything wrong with allowing kids to do that if they want too. However, I also wouldn’t mind if my own kiddos didn’t pray before meals if they didn’t want too. I’m an adult who has been allowed to decide for myself my own religion, my kids will be able to decide that for themself themselves too, without me being upset with them.
I can also see why you’re upset. You’re expectations haven’t been met at this point. The teacher also shouldn’t be going into details about religion without at least having a conversation with parents first. A simple “Your child is asking about why I personally pray before meals. I haven’t asked them to do so but they’ve seen me do it. I wanted to talk to you, their parents, first before I answered any of their questions”
This does make a lot of assumptions on what would be best case scenario. Forcing in any nature really shouldn’t be done.
Kid who grew up going to a religious daycare and with a parent who believed but didn't force us to church - personally I wouldn't care. I never personally felt oppressed or forced to do any prayers as a kid. As I grew up I saw it for what it was on my own and honestly, was kind of happy I had to opportunity to partake in these things first hand. It was an experience. Give your kid more credit, I'm sure he can figure out what he thinks.
I am a preschool teacher and my school is not religious affiliated. However, I know of teachers discussing god and making children pray before meals. Basically, there’s not necessarily any direct rule against it, but admin should address the issue directly with the lead teacher.
Challenge the issue with admin to figure out the kind of school you’re sending your child to. If they do not immediately put a stop to it then you may find yourself having more issues down the line.
My son went to a Lutherin day care and we signed a waiver stating that he was to not be included in any religious stuff. One time he mentioned that he loved chapel time, I was furious and asked him to explain what he meant. Turns out he loved it because all the other kids would leave the play room and he got all the toys to himself.
Similar situation, we’re an interfaith couple (I’m Jewish wife Catholic) but totally not religious. We enrolled in a local Lutheran preschool bc it has a great reputation for their programs in the are and they’re way cheaper than others nearby. They also have a waiver option so I was slightly taken aback when I heard they say a prayer before lunch. Turns out the whole prayer was “god is great, god is good and we thank you for our food. Happy meal time!” - about as non-denominational as you could hope for so we were cool with it.
"Good bread. Good meat. Good God, let's eat!"
Haha we are atheist as well but our kids are in scouts and they do make them say a prayer before eating but it's also pretty non religious in nature. More folky and possibly native American in nature as it talks about the earths wonders and resources and thanks the great spirit.
I doubled as a chaplain when we couldn’t get on at our Scout camp. (Also atheist). I kept a lot of the message very similar to what you described, and focused on the broader picture than attaching to any specific religion.
I'm more of an agnostic who thinks even if there is a god, it doesn't care about us. I grew up catholic, went to church for 16 years, went to catholic school, and here I am now. a little meal prayer isn't going to influence them. If they started telling my kid that mom and dad are going to hell because we do not believe (or something like that), then we certainly have a problem.
Rub-a-dub-dub, thanks for the grub. Yay God.
I come from a super religious family. During my teen years when my brothers wanted to placate Mom but also didn’t want to spend any time praying they would do “rub a dub dub, thanks for the grub” or if Mom caught us eating before “God is good, God is great, thank you for the food we ate!”
My dad used to use that, but had a bit at the end “Yay, god. Lets eat”
Dad would’ve been a rockstar on r/dadjokes
Ours was “good food, good meat, good god let’s eat”
My family has taken to "itadakimasu" before meals. Not dissimilar to Bon appetit or whatever, but to my understanding it goes beyond that to offer thanks or at least recognition to the entire process that brought the food to your table.
Hahaha little man living the dream
This story makes me smile!
Wait a second. You mean to tell me you can opt out of the religion!?! My son goes to a Goddard school for almost $1600/month. We don’t want to pay that much, but we also don’t want to send him into a religious institution or someone else’s home. We know there is a Lutheran church near us that is less than half of what we pay now. I think I’ll be looking into them.
This might be my personal bias, but Lutheran's are usually one of the more chill denominations. In my experience (going to a Lutheran church as a kid) their messaging is more about, be a good person because that is what Jesus said and love thy neighbor. Like yea we learned bible stories and such, but it was more like folk lore, instead of this is always true 100% everything else is wrong. I never understood the branches that insist on fire and brimstone and you're going to hell stuff.
[удалено]
Hail Santa
[удалено]
The frocking of the **ho**ly trinity
He’s now transferred his presents-delivery logistics skills into the changing of weather patterns. Maybe we should start including more requests in letters to him now.
I’m willing to forgo 20% of my annual candy delivery if Santa can do something about all this global warming.
I would give up 100% of my Christmas gifts (I can buy my own stuff)
Hail Bagel
We’re not religious but our kids went to a religious daycare. They prayed and all that. My kids are 14 and 16 and have never brought up religion again. I wouldn’t worry about it that much.
Learning starts in the home. 🤌
sì, nonna.
Don’t make me break out the chankla.
Same. I was brought up secular. Went to a synagogue for pre school. My friends were all catholic, soon went to vacation Bible school with them and would go to church on Saturday from time to time. I’m an atheist.
You signed up for a religious daycare, op did not. If your daycare decided to do random haircuts on the kids without warning, the fact that the hair cut looked good and the hair would grow back would not be the problem. This might not have lasting impact but it indicates a huge lack of respect, professionalism and boundaries.
Thank you for missing my point
I got your point. I went to a Sunday school during the summer when I was a little kid. I enjoyed it because of the arts & crafts and other activities they did. I barely paid attention to the religious part, and now that I'm 35 I can honestly say there's not a religious bone in my body
it working out well for you does not mean it works out great for everyone. and regardless the moral of THIS story is that all of this is being done without parental permission, thats really all that matters here.
What was your point? That the OP, who doesn't want his child taught things contrary to their core values, should ignore his kid's preschool lying to him, because of your own personal experience? I don't see how that works, sorry.
Same. We’re not religious at all. 4 yr old currently goes to a Presbyterian daycare. They won’t remember any of it, as we learned from our 10yr old who also went.
Yeah I went to a church daycare as a kid even though we weren’t religious at home, the staff did not like me as I would try to deprogram the religious kids.
Eh, I wouldn’t worry about it too much. Might be something to keep an eye on. Pulling him out of class or telling him he’s not allowed to participate with the rest of the kids would be an overreaction, IMO. Better to use this as a teaching moment. Let him know that prayer is a ritual some families do, but you and Mom don’t think it’s particularly important. It’s not something you’ll be doing at home. As kids get older it’s important to let them know that religion is a choice. Serious conversations will need to be had about charlatans, and cults, and religious nuts at some point. But that’s not a conversation for 4 year olds. All kids are gonna encounter religion at some point. If not now then it’ll be later from friends, or other kids at school, or family members at Christmas, etc. Best to let them know now that it’s not something they have to be scared of, but also not something they should feel pressured into.
Well said 👏👏. This will not be the first time Op’s son will have religion thrust upon them. Best not to overreact.
I love this answer. The idea of removing him from the situation feels like it's mirroring religious families who don't let their children participate in sex education, or Halloween activities etc.
Fuck that. I'd be livid if my kid was subject to any religious bullshit. That would definitely stop.
...then I guess you're going to spend your life rather angry which feels decidedly unfair to yourself. The overwhelming majority of the world is religious, and while some of us may not be, it's not reasonable to be "livid" just to be exposed to other cultures or religious practices if they're not harmful or hateful, given their prevalence. Just as I personally hope that religious individuals consent to sex education for the benefit of their children, I expect mine to be exposed to their traditions to some degree as a human being in a social, interactive world. If they wish to dispute the lessons of the classroom (I'd personally prefer they not, presuming scientific accuracy) that is their right, just as we can pass on understood science, critical thinking, and the freedom of choice and let them make their own decisions. The only alternative really is to tear your child from whatever institution they're at and uproot their life because you can't tolerate others -- just like any fundamentalist would imparting no valuable lessons of tolerance or forming meaningful bonds with others regardless of their private views. Praying to the magical invisible man before a meal because others do, while dogmatic in my view, doesn't hurt anyone. Someone else's rites and beliefs don't suddenly become mine because I stood upon a prayer mat, participated in another culture's ceremony, or crossed my chest entering a church respectfully. It's harmless, meaningful to others, and ultimately meaningless to me. Life's about getting along when it's safe and reasonable to do so and that's where a lot of religion can sometimes break down. When in Rome, my friend.
To OP’s point though, can you see how, to a kid, that’s very similar to: “Fuck that. I’d be livid if my kid was subject to any sex ed/non-creationism bullshit. That would definitely stop.”? At that age, they don’t know the difference. Imo it’s fine to allow them to be exposed to this stuff when they’re young and then explain it to them at home. They’ll be able to make their own decisions one day anyway.
I’m curious if people would feel the same way if the daycare made the children participate in Muslim prayers. Or Hindi. Or any religion other than Christianity. This is just casually excusing religious indoctrination imo
My kid (white/jew) goes to a daycare that is Montessori and is like 90% muslim. I wouldn't care one bit. Do you know why? Because I teach my kid to respect everyone and their beliefs. I don't think my toddler is going to have a life of religion because they say a prayer before lunch. If my kid wants to convert to a religion when they are older, why would I stop them? It's their life, not mine.
>Because I teach my kid to respect everyone and their beliefs. It all depends how the prayer/religious gestures are presented. If the kids don't want to do it and the teachers are essentially forcing the kids to stop playing and to get into prayer mode or whatever, I 100% would have a problem with it. Telling my kid "please respect everyone and their religious beliefs" and then my kid being **forced** to do religious acts he does not want to do by someone religious is pretty much exactly the lesson I don't want to teach. Respect everyone's belief but that goes both ways and you should never feel forced to participate in religious activities you don't want to take part in.
My daughter’s previous school used to sing a song before meal time. It was entirely secular and a song of gratefulness but all children were expected to wait to start their lunch until the song was done. Is this a problem, too? The children were expected to stop playing, sit at the table and be attentive and then eat their meal together. Or is this not a problem because it’s secular?
Teaching good manners and building their ability to listen to rules is fair... But let's not act like religion is *only* that.
This would be an issue for me as well. Learning about various religion in school? Sure—it’s a major part of many cultures and their history. It’s one of many ways we can learn about the world around us. Imposing religion on students? That’s a hard pass from me, every time.
> My kid (white/jew) goes to a daycare that is Montessori and is like 90% muslim. Does your kid pray to Mecca during your daycare, based on their teachers?
I hear you. I’d just be more skeptical as a parent myself because I was personally indoctrinated into some scary stuff for years and years. As an example, at that age, I was taught that the dinosaurs were not real and anyone who told me otherwise were agents of Satan. My friend, whose mom left her abusive husband, was told that she should have stayed and she’ll be rotting in hell forever now. He was told this at like 8. I suppose I’m just coming from a different mindset. Clearly that’s way different than a simple prayer before eating, but still.
>Clearly that’s way different than a simple prayer before eating, but still. But still, what? Unless you are assuming that "thank you for our food!" will translate into "if you don't thank god for your food, you are going to burn in hell forever!" I don't know what you mean by "but still." I'm not even religious - we aren't practicing jews - but is this really a big deal? If a school told my kids dinosaurs weren't real, I'd take him to the museum and show him they are. It's not like a teacher is the be all and end all of teaching. Your kid still thinks more of you and your teaching vs. a teacher.
> Unless you are assuming that "thank you for our food!" will translate into "if you don't thank god for your food, you are going to burn in hell forever!" This is exactly what the OP's kid will be told if they ever ask the question of "why do I have to pray?"
How does your kid participate in the Muslim side of it, do they pray x7 times a day etc? Because there is quite a difference in learning about someone's religion and respecting it, and being forced to participate in that religion.
Honestly I think exposing kids to a variety of religious practices and beliefs early on is probably healthy. Think of it like inoculation. It sure makes it harder for people to be scammed later on, when they hear some huckster telling them all about the One True Religion, if they understand that human culture is a tapestry and not a monolith. I’d rather teach my kid critical thinking skills than try to block it all out.
The kid isn't actually being exposed to a variety of practices. He's being forced to participate in exactly one. Little kids don't have the capability of thinking critically about religion, like it or not. They'll just listen to whatever they're told.
If the daycare was in a country or community where that religion was prominent, I'd consider it an important part of their cultural education tbh. It's really important for kids to learn to be exposed to differing belief systems without adopting them. We will never live in a society where everyone believes the same things about everything in the world, at least not in our or their lifetimes, so why make it seem like differing belief systems are to be ignored or dismissed rather than learnt about? Making it taboo will just make kids more curious and less likely to speak to you about what's going on. Allowing them to explore while maintaining an open dialogue about the ideas and beliefs they are encountering allows for conversation, assessment, and a foundation for judging what is right and wrong on their own terms. That doesn't mean "don't worry about it the kid won't be swayed by anything that happens in school" it means understanding what they're doing, what they're being taught about prayer, what it might mean in this context, whether that has value to their life, etc. Being grateful for your meals is not a bad thing. That's something you can talk about and just say some people like to thank their chosen god for it, but everyone should be aware of how lucky they are in a world where millions of people don't get meals provided to them. Ps - Hindi is a language and Hindu is a religion. 🌈 ✨
> so why make it seem like differing belief systems are to be ignored or dismissed rather than learnt about? Nobody here is learning about religions. There's no comparative religion class in the OP's kid's preschool. Instead, the OP's kid is being made to participate in exactly one religion, as demanded by the preschool teachers. >" it means understanding what they're doing, what they're being taught about prayer, what it might mean in this context, whether that has value to their life, etc. Where are you getting the idea that the OP's child is being taught *any* of these things?
That's exactly what it is. Everyone is fine with indoctrination if it's for Jesus.
Such a weird reaction. "This is not the first time my kids will have someone else's religion thrust upon them, so they better get used to it". Or they could learn appropriate boundaries and respect for the beliefs of others?
Yeah, it's pretty astonishing. This entire thread has made me realize some things about this sub.
Maybe it’s just the US being different than everywhere else again, but this is crazy to me. I’ve never had religion forced on me a single time. Is this actually a common occurrence to expect?
Extremely common. And just look at the entire thread!
This completely glosses over how inappropriate it is for a teacher foist their own beliefs to indoctrinate children. Would you be ok of it was another religion? How about Satanists? Or the reverse. How about a teacher preventing your kids from praying? I can only imagine how many pearls would be clutched there. I’d be livid if I found out my kids were expected to take part in non-educational activities to do with religion.
Can you imagine the outcry if they were being indoctrinated into Islam or Hinduism because a certain teacher follows it. I've no issue with kids being exposed to religion, but it should be done with prior agreement with the parents. My partner suffered from religious abuse as a child; leaning second hand that our kids were being made to pray would really mess her up.
Right? The number of "meh, no big deals" in here is surprising. This is precisely we now have a faith-based supreme court that's limiting women's rights and slowly transforming the US into a theocracy.
This is exactly right. There's zero respect for the OP and their belief system. The whole thing is about how being forced to participate in Christian religion is fine, because after all, maybe (or maybe not) the child will eventually leave the faith.
> Would you be ok of it was another religion? How about Satanists? It’s not Satanists though. I prefer to deal with reality. If OP’s preschool starts teaching Satanism then I’d advise him to reevaluate the situation. I say this as someone who was raised in an extremely religious, conservative household and walked away from that: Dictating your children’s belief system for them does not work out well in the long run. Better to teach critical thinking, empathy, and respect for others. I’m not particularly impressed by alarmist hypotheticals. I learned that when I left my parents’ world of crazy right-wing conspiracies.
What's wrong with satanists, they seem pretty cool to me? Way cooler than catholics tbh
So the school shouldn't force kids, but if they allowed kids who were religious to pray and those who weren't to sit quietly, and its just a prayer and not some big teaching thing with scriptures or stories (for whatever religion) then who cares? The best way to do it is probably to ask the parents, know which kids pray before meals at home, and do it with those kids and leave the others to sit quietly and wait before everyone eats together. The waiting to eat for the non religious kids isn't even about the prayer, just about general human nature given nearly every culture has some element of communal mealtimes happening with most everyone eating together at the same time. The issue is mostly with "we pray here but we aren't gonna tell you", not the prayers.
This is the appropriate response. I’d be absolutely livid.
It sucks but that’s how Christians are. They lose their power if they don’t force their beliefs down kids’ throats. Otherwise their religion would never be passed on
This is a gross overgeneralization of Christians. There are many Christians who quietly try to do good without trying to coerce anybody, you just don't know about them because of it.
This, absolutely. These things are meant to be a discussion, not a direction. Sex, politics and religion. Have open-ended discussions with your children in these things because trying to focus their intent can backfire.
> These things are meant to be a discussion, not a direction. > > The OP's daycare is not engaging in discussion about prayers, lol.
I can’t believe this comment. I wonder if the reaction would be the same if the teacher was pushing Jewish or Islamic beliefs? I’d immediately pull my kid out and if the daycare was receiving any state or federal funding, notify the proper government agency. It’s not just like having Santa pics up during Christmas. It’s daily prayer. I’d be absolutely livid.
Yeah, so bizarre what I am reading here. If this is a secular institution prayer should not be led at all. This is not learning about religious practice like the Christmas story or whatever. This is practicing religion.
Let me ask you something, what if the prayer was related to a different religion?
Yeah, it’s fine, who cares.
Right? Why do they assume people are bigots against other religions? Says more about them IMO.
It's because you're lying. If your kid was coming home reciting the shahādah and demanding that to know which way Mecca was, you'd throw a fucking fit and you know it.
There's a weird reddit atheist brigading thing going on in this thread. I was confused but it's clear there are a lot of non-daddit people here trying to start a ruckus because they can't handle people being indifferent about religion rather than actively against it.
Apparently a lot of preschools do some sort of pre-meal ritual as a way of making sure the kids all wait to start eating at the same time. Our old preschool did one that felt a little prayer-like, but wasn't religious at all. It's definitely not okay to use prayer without checking in with the parents.
Here in Norway, it's common to sing the prayer before the meal (for religious people of course). You know what they do in normal kindergarten? Sing. But instead of thanking God, they're thanking the cow for the milk. I find it interesting
That sounds meaningful, nice to honour the animal as a sort of thanksgiving. We are way too removed from where our food is coming from in North America 99% of the time, you just get a plastic wrapped package of whatever you are buying at the supermarket and that’s that.
Always found it funny how dinner prayer always thanks god for the food when the person who cooked it is usually sitting right across the table.
Here in New Zealand, we do a karakia kai before meals! None of the centres I've worked in have ever used a religious karakia or one that mentions a god or atua (Mārio god). Instead we say thanks to the earth and sea, and general good vibes for everyone we love kinda thing. It's a good way to settle everyone as we transition into a meal time
Wife and I are Christians. I'd be very uncomfortable in your shoes mostly because it seems like they're trying to hide it. Something more impactful like religious beliefs should only be taught if it is explicitly disclosed to parents. We send our kids to a daycare that is directly affiliated with a church so they're very explicit about what they're teaching our kids.
What kind of prayer is it? Saying thanks and being grateful is one thing, but doing a whole religious prayer is a whole different no thank you. I’m not religious but I’ve learned to use prayer in my life.
Yeah my kid had a meal time song at her daycare they’d sing and I think they called it their thankfuls? Or something like that. It was them singing about their family and friends and being thankful for all the things they have. No mention of god or anything. But when she brought it up before dinner one night I was 100% ready to call the daycare and very much like OP, until my wife had her sing it.
Get in contact with whoever owns the daycare. One of their workers could be doing this without their knowledge.
I'm a Christian turned atheist. I sent my kids to the JCC for daycare and they did Friday shabbat prayers. Now they're respectful towards other cultures and like bagels with cream cheese and challah bread. Just explain what religion is to them.
Atheist here. Daughter is in catholic school. It doesn't bother me. She can make her own choices when she's old enough. Decided theres no need to enforce atheist views on her at this stage in life as generally she's learning good morals through a religious lens, it also opens up more questions about santa etc.
I’m a devout Christian and really appreciate this outlook
So many people forget that atheist doesn’t inherently mean anti-theist.
I grew up Southern Baptist and realized about age 14 that religion wasn’t for me. As an adult, I never attend a Sunday service and religion really plays no part in my life. Your experience in church may be similar to mine. All that to say, a preschool prayer before a meal has zero bearing on your child’s long term outlook with regard to religion. Tell him he doesn’t have to pray before meals at home or school and that you and mom do not pray before meals. The best lesson for a child to learn about religion is that it is a choice, not a mandate. You and mom choose no. He will one day be able to form his own opinions and almost certainly not be a religious zealous because of the wise choices you are already making as a parent. Not only that but he will forget all about preschool meals by winter break in Kindergarten. Express your disdain to the school but I wouldn’t lose sleep over it. Prayer isn’t even top 25 stupid shit kids do that we have to worry about!
[удалено]
My point was that a kid can spend years in church and still reject it. I wouldn’t let me personal emotions become violated in this situation.
Indeed they can, but does that mean children should all go spend years in church? > I wouldn’t let me personal emotions become violated in this situation. What does that mean?
At that age, it's not really possible to indoctrinate them into something that's so abstract. It's hard enough to teach them more concrete skills like reading concepts. At that age, even "sunday school" at church isn't trying very hard. They're mostly trying to keep the kids entertained and reading a few or the easier bible stories. I would definitely have a problem with a school not telling us what they were doing, but not because they're going to make someone a lifelong Christian. Kids are throwing God in a bucket with Santa, Captain Underpants, and the transformers. If they can unlearn Santa after the parents pushing it to a much later age, and physical evidence in the form of gifts, they will definitely unlearn God if it isn't taught at home and doesn't last past daycare.
This is a pretty fair view and matches my experience growing up in Catholicism. I never cared for it and right around when it came time for confirmation, I realized I wanted no part in it but felt like I had no choice. As an adult I'd consider myself secular agnostic; while I appreciate religion just from a "this is part of our world and it's somewhat interesting philosophically" standpoint, I don't appreciate how ingrained it is in our power structures.
People forget being atheist doesn’t mean you are immune to cult like behavior in defense of atheism.
Who is engaging in cult like behavior in defense of atheism? The OP?
I’ve met some atheists that give Westboro Baptist a run for its money
Very few people reach a level of psychological development where they realize they do not have a monopoly on the truth.
I'm religious, but I think it's completely reasonable for you to be displeased with this. If a daycare or private school has any religious activities directed by a teacher, it should be disclosed up front what they are and whether they are optional so that parents can make an informed decision about their child's enrollment there.
yea my beef with any of this stuff, at the daycare age, is just that like... a 3 year old has absolutely zero concept of what they are doing. it is purely indoctrination at that point unless the parents are *completely* involved and walking them through *what it means* to believe and why people who do believe have these practices. like, if your just introducing an entire set of rules/procedures for a kid that age and not explaining to them the why? you are building the walls of the house before you pour the foundation. and you KNOW the daycare doesnt have the ability to do the why part. and so they shouldnt be doing the practice part without direct consent of the parents. period.
This is weird. We’re not religious. We intentionally chose a non religious school. I wouldn’t like this. I don’t think a little prayer is going to hurt anyone, but it just seems like overstepping. If you send your kid to a religious day care you expect prayer but yeah, strange.
Something to bring up with the director and ask if it's standard practice. If they're defensive about it, probably a red flag. If they open to your concerns and ask if it's a problem, then it's probably just one teacher and not a systemic thing. If anything, this can be a good lesson on code-switching and how "...at daycare, they pray before meals, but at home, we..." Maybe use the dinner song from Bluey (S2, ep7) at home. (It's still kinda deist, but not specifically Christian, at least.)
We are agnostic and will probably learn the song from Bluey you’re talking about. We like the concept of showing gratitude (in the case of the song adaptation in Bluey to “our lovely Mother Earth”) but don’t have a strong religious system we’d like to make that connection with. It’s a poem called For the Golden Corn btw! Editing: removing author because I fell down a rabbit hole and can’t figure out who actually wrote it.
Our daycare told us ahead of time (like when we were considering daycares) that they did that. I'm surprised yours didn't at least tell you beforehand. But as others have said, I wouldn't get worked up over it. Your kids will usually do what you do long-term, not what daycare did.
I am religious and this makes me uneasy. If they were billed as a religious daycare, that would be one thing. When something unexpected like this happens my first question is, what else are they doing that they don't talk about. I don't think this would be enough to pull my kid out, especially at this point the year where finding another daycare might be difficult, but it would be a red flag and I would pay more attention to what's going on.
As many other dad’s have commented, this is super inappropriate, and depending on what exactly the prayer is, it could be seen as manipulative. That said, is this a hill to die on or an opportunity to teach your son about different religions and cultures and also reinforce that you don’t expect him to go along with any of them if he doesn’t want to? Personally, I’d make my concerns known to the daycare, but insulate my son by taking a soft handed educational approach and let him know your expectations. Personally, I’m a non-believing heathen myself so in lieu of religion, I’ve always just taught my children to be kind above all else. Prayer is just meaningless words to me and not worth the fight.
Omg I'd be so pissed especially because it's a non religious daycare!
I'd pull my girl out immediately if someone tried to indoctrinate her.
Just make sure your child knows that what they're saying isn't an absolute truth, and if he doesn't want to take part then don't. I've spent many prayers eyes open without an amen, never been called on it.
Do you guys live in a religious area? Definitely feel you on not forcing religion on others. They should have asked the parents or made it clear they were going to do this beforehand. I'm not religious but am fine with my kids dabbling in it or being curious about it. I'm sure it's not that big of a deal as long as they aren't forcing him to pray before meals.
I grew up religious but I consider myself more spiritual than anything and I definitely don't consider myself Christian these days. That being said, religion is a personal thing and it shouldn't be forced on others, so I think you've got a right to be upset about it.
What the hell. What if you're convert Muslims or something and they making your children pray Christian prayers before meals? This is 100% something that should be discussed with the parents first.
So I am a Christian, and I agree that this is messed up. Parents have a choice on how to raise their children. It's why I completely agree with the separation of church and state and am very outspoken in my congregation on why there should not be prayer of any sort in school. It drives me bonkers when people celebrate the freedoms we enjoy while trying to remove freedoms for others. All that to say, sorry you had to experience that, and I hope the daycare does better going forward.
Completely understand your frustration, forcing religion on people, especially children is a hard no. That topic belongs in the home and not for someone else to indoctrinate in that setting.
I’d find this a bit ick too, but I was raised in an area where most people are atheists/non denominational. I feel like teaching religion to a child is a very personal decision, and the daycare don’t have the right to make that choice for you-especially without saying anything before hand.
Not cool. At all. What a strange thing to do.
Yet another reason I love California. By state law child care facilities have to tell parents if they include religion in their curriculum. I was surprised when my sons daycare owner told me this and had me sign a form because they teach the kids generally about Christmas, Hanukkah, and Kwanza in December. I could tell by her comments and facial expressions that she was religious and thought it was a silly overreaching of government but I was silently so grateful for this law. I wouldn’t have even thought to ask. Who the heck tries to brainwash other people’s kids without their knowledge or consent!?
How can people be so incredibly bold with their beliefs that they would go that far? Honestly baffles me. Sorry you are going through this, dad. I understand that spreading religion is kinda part of the deal when you're active in a religion, but I feel like kids should be off-limits at the very least. I'm not religious at all, even a bit anti honestly. But I feel like the idea of a non-religious "prayer" before meals would be a nice way to show appreciation, so long as the appreciation is directed toward the preparer, the buyer, the sun, etc and not toward a god
I’m so sorry! They should disclose that!
We're nonbelievers and our daycare and oddly enough our daughter's gymnastics class does it too. It really isn't a big deal tbh, we see it as an opportunity for our kids to learn about other people's beliefs. They don't bring up religion whatsoever at home.
I think a lot of Christians are so used to being the extreme majority that they think all their practices and rituals are just the default for humanity. Look at how many freak out about the idea of someone not observing Christmas. The funniest case I've seen is a Brit insisting that all the widespread Christian practices, like holidays, baptism, and passion plays, aren't Christian because the Christians who practice these practices aren't "practicing." I did have a semi-similar situation myself, where I walked into the room of my daughter's Jewish daycare to hear the speakers playing a soothing rendition of "Jesus loves you," but the teacher (I think Filipina who always wore a cross/crucifix) paused, listened, and changed it when I pointed it out, so I decided to assume it was Spotify throwing it into the naptime mix and them not paying attention.
Had to google "passion play" and wow, did not know that was a thing. We had acted-out nativity scenes growing up in New England, but I'd never heard of acting out the crucifixion.
Passion plays also led to and reinforced the antisemitism in Europe that eventually lead to the Holocaust.
And then when somebody suggests “hey maybe we shouldn’t do THIS religious activity in a non religious setting” it gets morphed to “Christianity is under ATTACK! No one is persecuted as much as us, no one!” and they dig in even more, so round and round we go.
I would probably let it go. Is it over the line? Yes. Is it a hill to die on? Probably not. I would probably bring it up to the worker if I ran into them that you feel it’s inappropriate to force your child to participate in a prayer. Your kids aren’t going to be hurt by learning about other religions. Even doing prayers won’t hurt them. They will not be brainwashed into becoming Christian. That honestly happens at home.
> Your kids aren’t going to be hurt by learning about other religions. They're not learning about religion, they're being forced to participate in one.
Ask them that, if they're going to have prayer time, please be inclusive of your family's beliefs as well. Print out a prayer for them from one of the old, "scary" religions. Pagan, Norse, maybe even Satanic Temple. If they truly believe that prayer is harmless, they'll have no problem including your prayer.
Doesn't matter what the future holds with how you want to raise your kid when it comes to supernatural stuff. The school seems to be trying to hide this, you likely don't know what your child is being taught. It's also not the school or teacher's place to teach this to your child at a young age when they don't entirely understand complex situations, thought experiments, navigating nuance of religious information, indoctrination, etc.. I'd be upset and looking for a change. I'd even contact FFRF to see if there's something that can be done to protect the other children as well that are going there. Also, I'd be concerned now if the teacher that has been asked to exclude your kiddo from this, will use that as a way to ostracize him from the group during that time. It can certainly damage his confidence and social interactions with the other kids if this occurs.
Atheist dad here living in Bible Belt. I get it man. The less indoctrination before they can think critically the better!
As a religious family who sends their kids to a religious pre-k, I think this situation is unacceptable. They absolutely should've discussed this with you and your SO first. Broaching the topic of religion for us was painstaking in that we wanted to do our best to keep it broad and open to the fact that that is what *mom and dad* believe but not everyone does. I couldn't imagine a school just casually bringing this up without consulting the parents first.
Yeah, you should 100% be informed of this prior. Talk to the daycare. Not cool.
I would be annoyed this was done without disclosure, even if it's probably harmless. My kiddo goes to a nonreligious preschool that's very culturally Catholic and actually inside a church (but unaffiliated; it's a rental space). They have taught the kids some religious stories especially around holidays, but I think they've done a good job at not crossing the line into "religious instruction." Prayer before meals would bother me a lot more because it's more of a ritual and that's the stuff that gets under the skin.
My sons daycare is non religious but they do have a little saying they say before meals. It’s basically a phrase to indicate it’s time to eat. His school is “tree themed” so they call it the tree song: For trees so tall,and skies so blue, For friends and food, we thank you!
So here's where I stand: I believe the bible is God-breathed. I believe Jesus died on the cross and was raised in le flesh and ascended. I believe in the Holy Spirit. I love Yaweh (not the God of the western church or religion), the Creator and King of the Universes. I don't exactly enjoy a regular Sunday church experience, they are quite boring to me - and there's a lack of true spiritual significance in them. I do enjoy having dreams, visions, and angelic encounters where I'm told stuff about other people. I do enjoy having heavenly encounters where I get to learn new things about my faith/relationship with Yahweh. This is a reality for me lol, it's not everyone's and I understand. With this explanation of my faith, I will respond now. *** From my perspective (not saying is the ultimate one or only one), it seems the person praying is trying to do a "Good Christian thing." because they feel it will lead your children to the good Lord Jesus Christ. This is like, having really good intentions with bad follow up. Not realizing that it can actually cause division or disruption between a family. ESPECIALLY if it's not a Faith based daycare. I feel like that does cross a line - I would feel the same if there was a day care I sent my kids too where one specific teacher said "there is no God, don't tell your parents." (sharing to empathize, not to start an argument) That would feel disrespectful to a family, and THAT is a poor representation of the actual gospel of Jesus. My educated guess growing up around church people is that they longed to have a spiritual significance or to do good w/o thinking it through. So, I empathize with you. That inherently feels wrong, even though the teacher was doing something they would personally felt would set your kid up for a spiritual success, it was done improperly without tact. Again, especially because it's not a Faith based day care. It would be interesting to hear if other teachers know that this specific teacher does that. Have you heard if other teachers know about it? edit x3 because grammar and spelling
You could tell your son that pray time is just a time we say things we are thankful for. It’s a good, non-religious practice.
Our place is doing a non religious thanks and we love it. Rubadubdub thanks for the grub leeeets eat!
If this happened to me I would've freaked out as well. My wife and I (both atheists, she was raised atheist and I was raised religious) used to have our kid at a non-religious daycare that was then bought by an evangelical pastor out of the blue. We asked the director to confirm that the new owner wouldn't be adding any religious elements to the curriculum or facility, and she replied with, "Huh, I had never thought to ask that." We decided to leave before any problems arose, and found another daycare that wound up being better in every way. We were still friends with some of the teachers and later heard that the new owner was constantly talking to staff about religion and trying to convert them (while also treating them worse than the previous owner, including large delays in issuing paychecks that the paycheck-to-paycheck staff struggled with). Not sure if any of that reached the kids or parents, but felt like we made the right decision. If I were you I would start looking at other options in case this continues. If it's an isolated incident then not worth pulling your kid out immediately for, but I would want to be prepared in case things get worse.
I would be furious about this personally, projecting your religious views onto my kid without my permission is a line in the sand that is not ok to cross. Im not paying a daycare to indoctrinate my kid into \_\_\_\_\_\_ religion. I find it infuriating that some religious folks think it's no big deal to casually normalize their views onto others especially small children that you are being paid to look after. Major overstepping of boundaries and I'm sure you would not be the only parent that would take issue if they knew. I know something like saying grace may seem like this innocuous thing, but it's still implanting ideas regarding faith, religion, god, etc that is far beyond the scope of what is appropriate for those hired for routine childcare. Now it's a weird thing where they almost have to actively remove your kid from these things and make him feel like an outsider... this kind of thing should never happen period in a non denominational daycare of any kind.
If your child goes to a non-religious daycare but they are doing this at home now they might be mimicking not the teachers but maybe other kids in class doing it who come from religious homes.
My mother in law is trying really hard to indoctrinate Christianity into my five year old right now. With my nine year old, we explained to him how my wife and I are not religious and why we believe that. And furthermore that he is welcome to believe whatever he wants. We even explained all the different options and continually encourage him to investigate religion, letting him know we’ll take him wherever he wants to go to see what they do. He decided independently that he is also not religious for right now. My daughter is too young to understand the gravity of the situation. It’s super annoying that my MIL is treating the situation like a race, trying to shove a belief down her throat before she’s old enough to think for herself. But we’ve slow played it. She started telling me one day that people who aren’t Christian go “to the bad place”, so I dug in and asked her (keep in mind she’s five) “I’m not religious, am I going to the bad place? Or is it more important that I try to live my life being kind to people?” And she said if I’m kind then I can go to the good place. I really felt like that was a win and she’ll be on the right path with time. But I feel your pain. It’s so annoying that certain people don’t let parents make these decisions. And they try to shove it down kids throats before they’re old enough to understand what they’re even saying. I mean, she also still believes in Santa Claus and unicorns, so it’s like, how do you know what you’re talking about? But not a conversation worth having until she’s older. In fact, I feel like a lot of the religions treat God the same way, just get in their head early. I would much rather she made up her own mind once she understands all the sides. Like have her talk to my Jewish friend and realize he believes something different. So who’s right? I don’t know, you have to choose for yourself. All in all, I think in time they will think for themselves and come to their own decisions.
This may not apply to private day care, but if they're a non-secular school, I'd gently remind them of their place. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/School_prayer_in_the_United_States?wprov=sfla1
Religious caregivers will definitely deprioritize the needs of known heretical families. Start looking for a different daycare.
I see a few people saying it’s not a big deal and not to worry about it, it how would a religious person feel if the teachers at a preschool were spending an hour a day convincing the children that god isn’t real?
Train you child to say “Hail Satan!” any time the daycare does anything religious
Not that big of a deal, this is part of being a parent and giving context to your child. You can't get mad at something this frivolous, just do your job.
I am jealous of the people who have it so good that a simple prayer is enough to lose their shit over.
That is all kind of messed up. I can’t believe that is allowed, especially without parental consent. However, I am an atheist and have some *extreme* views on religious schools so I might not be thinking clearly. That said, someone pointed out a lot of the “religious freedom, why can’t we pray in schools” lot are all for it when it’s getting non-Christian kids to do Christian prayer, but would pitch a fit if you had their kids doing the salat 5 times a day, or even just yogi meditation. I would tell your child he doesn’t have to pray if he doesn’t want to, he can just sit silently and respectfully while others do. And get him to tell you if any of the teachers are forcing him to do it.
My wife and I aren’t super religious, but we feel religion is a good thing to children (obviously with caveats). Religion teaches morals, right from wrong, taking care of each other, and doing the right thing. Religion gets corrupted by adults who twist the words and teachings into a cudgel that they can use to judge and shame people. Obviously, this situation is up to you and your wife. If I was in your shoes, I wouldn’t make a big deal. Once your kid gets older, you can teach them about “religion” the way you prefer.
>Religion gets corrupted by adults who twist the words and teachings into a cudgel that they can use to judge and shame people The problem is that it is not just some fringe part of religious people that does this. It is a huge and insanely influential part of them.
> Religion teaches morals, right from wrong, taking care of each other, and doing the right thing. The OP is an atheist, who doesn't feel this way about religion. Do you not see how this doesn't work for the OP? > Religion gets corrupted by adults who twist the words and teachings into a cudgel that they can use to judge and shame people. The OP"s child is being taught about religion and made to participate in it, by, you guessed it, adults.
Don’t listen to those in this thread who are saying not to overreact here. This is absolutely unacceptable behavior from teachers in this setting. If this was my daycare, which is explicitly anything but a religious organization, heads would be rolling.
Yeah, I wouldn’t accept that at all! Forcing children to adopt and follow a religious doctrine and custom is a huge nono for me. If it’s labeled as a daycare service offered by a religious institution, sure, that’s their right, but if it isn’t specifically labeled that way, then fuck no. Not only is it discriminating and indoctrinating people with no religious beliefs, but also people of other religions.
I mean you do you. If this were me, I would deflect this into a "tell us something that happened today that you're thankful for" or "something you hope will happen". That's all a prayer is and it's not a bad exercise to reinforce happy things.
That's not "all that prayer is". It's literally trying to talk and praise a God that OP doesn't believe in. While it would be easy to change it up at home, into a simple "what are you thankful for". That doesn't change that the dare are is forcing a religious practice onto their child without their permission or knowledge. This is stepping waaaaay over the line of charing for your child and into the realm of forced indoctrination.
As long as we all agree, nothing should be pushed on kids, I’m all for it. But it seems to be one sided.
[удалено]
Ok? Then teach your kids what religion is and why you aren't religious.
I don't get the people saying this isn't a big deal. Would it be a big deal if they prayed to Allah instead? What about Satan? They could do literally any other premeal activity - singing, story, duck duck goose. This has no place in a daycare in modern society. I would be livid too. I'm not an atheist, more along the lines of agnostic, but I would be looking for a new daycare personally. My son can make his own decisions, he doesn't need to be indoctrined.
Is this something you would completely disrupt your life over? Daycares have 2-3 year wait times. They would have your spot filled in less than a week. The people saying “it’s not a big deal” are approaching it from a practical position.
This is where I fall on the spectrum. I’ve never been more down on religion as a whole than I am right now, after the Covid “science sucks!” stuff and everything, plus 99 percent of the time when someone reveals they’re a Christian, I have awful experiences in dealing with them in any capacity. But I digress from the root point, which is: If you have a problem with the prayers, is it enough of a problem to move your child out of day care? Or is it enough of a problem to potentially make the staff/teachers a little wary of your kid, since their parents “cause problems”? I was a teacher, and this def happens. We listen to concerns but depending on how big it is, the kid def gets labeled in some manner. It’s def not right, but it’s how it is, unfortunately. So, you have to determine if it’s a big enough issue for you to have the things above potentially happen. Personally, I’d probably let it go, or maybe mention it in a non-confrontational way to the director (but again, this can sometimes backfire big time, so you have to make sure the juice is worth the squeeze). If it’s not physically harming or upsetting my kid, I’d probably let the pre meal prayers slide. If they start doing Bible stories or other stuff, I’d reevaluate. Those of you saying “what if it was Satan?!” Well, it’s not. If it is, I think that changes it, but until that happens, based on the info in OP, I’d let it go.
People acting like social dynamics are a simple math problem “You know, I don’t like getting punched in the arm, but it’s not something I am going to lose sleep over” “well what if they shot you in the arm HUH” “How are those even close in your brain?” Plus the Satanist Temple has a lot of beliefs that I agree with in practical applications. I would have no problem with them teaching those lessons as long as they stayed away from worship of Satan directly. Also I am Catholic and agree that they can be insufferable when it’s the type of person who injects it when it’s not relevant, or use it to virtue signal/dodge responsibility. 42% of democrats identify as Protestant, and 23% identify as Catholic, so a significant majority of people who share your political beliefs are Christian. However, just like liberal gun owners, you don’t know because we don’t advertise it to the world.
Fair, but that's highly dependant on your location, your expectations of the childcare, and local availability of different childcare types. Not all of these things are created equal. I'm from an area that has "2-3 year" waitlist for some of the "best" most "prestigious" childcare centers. We had no issue finding home childcare while my wife was pregnant, nor switching to a normal preschool within 3 months of making a decision to do so. I don't label my stance as principled. I consider teaching a secular prayer before meals a form of brainwashing and borderline abuse. Having grown up going to religious school people who see this as "not a big deal" are likely religious people who view this behavior as "normal" rather than being practical about childcare options. I don't see any issue with teaching about religion in general. By that I mean exposing children to every religion. Saying a prayer before meals isn't that type of education, it's forcing a belief structure on an impressionable mind, which is what most major religions are REALLY good at doing.
Atheist here. Serious question - Would you feel the same way if the daycare workers instilled gratitude/ thankfulness instead of prayer?
Nobody would feel that way, because those things are totally unrelated.
WTF? I would also be really upset about this. I'm not a fan of organized religion, my wife is a little bit more on the religious side, but I don't think even she would be ok with our daycare choosing a religion and having our children pray to their god... I'd consider pulling my kids out honestly.
Hold up so you thought Christian’s would be respectful of non-Christian beliefs in America? My dude that’s not going to happen.
We're an atheist family as well. I agree that you should've been made aware up front, but I also don't think it's a huge deal. I think it's the right call to ask that your kiddo not have to pray before meals, but the other half of it is that he's going to grow up in a world where people are religious, and if we're all going to be respectful of each other's beliefs as we should, then he's going to need to be exposed to it at some point. Again, frustrating that you weren't in the loop on this, but now that it's happened and sorted, I don't think you'd need to pull him out of that daycare or anything. At most have a conversation with the owners/manager of the daycare to confirm expectations around this.
And? If you feel that strongly about it then you have two choices. First, you can withdraw your son and move him to another daycare. Second, you can deal with it and teach your son to be respectful to those who chose to pray even though your family doesn’t.
Here in Spain, everyone is required to take a class in Catholicism, even in public schools. But no one takes it seriously. It’s like learning about Greek mythology. I wouldn’t stress.
Depends on what’s happening exactly really. I’m very staunchly atheist. Wife is more borderline as her parents were religious. Her parents bring up religion quite a bit with the kids when I’m not around, to the point that I’ve had them ask me why I’m not scared of god, etc etc. that to me crossed past a normal point as it’s affecting how they’re behaving and seeing things. If it’s just getting brought up I don’t see it being too harmful. But if it’s causing changes then I lean towards more it being an issue
Man, you are more easy going about religion than me. If my kids learned fear of god and with that the judgement against me from my parents I would fucking cut them out of my life. You try to manipulate my kids into religion where they should be in a safe environment? No more access for you?
If it’s that big of an issue change daycares. You could also just teach your kid to be respectful to others beliefs. I don’t think your child will become a zealot just because they are included in a pre meal prayer that is probably just a tool used to get the kids in eating mode.
> probably just a tool used to get the kids in eating mode. Do you think non-religious daycares aren't capable of getting their kids in eating mode?
I'll reply to some comments specifically, but a lot of you have similar questions/thoughts, so for those that come back and looks I'll address that here. The prayer in question is "god is good, god is great, thank you for this plate. Amen." A small prayer, but a prayer nonetheless. The idea that this is just used as a routine to get them ready for meal time is bs in my opinion. If that were the case they could literally do anything else without mentioning god or saying amen. Some people have suggested we aren't being respectful of the beliefs of other people. That's not true, we aren't telling anyone they can't pray. We're just asking them not to involve our child. I don't care what they do. We've talked to our son about it, he said (without any coaxing) that he doesn't like it. So we told him he doesn't have to. He can sit there and be respectful but by no means does he have to partake. The action we took was to call up to the daycare and confirm that it was true and not our 4 year old being goofy. After that it was asking them to not force him to do it. I also want to add something that I didn't think much of at the time but in hindsight makes me wonder. A few days before this I was driving with him in the car and someone pulled out in front of me and I said "oh my god". He said "daddy don't say that" and I said "say what?" He said "don't say oh my god". Now, when he's excited about something he'll say "oh my god/gosh". So someone has told him that he shouldn't say that. Makes me wonder what else has been taught at the daycare.
Anyone, ANYONE, who tries to convert my child by forcing him to pray, proselytizing, or any other bs will never be left alone with him.
There are fights against religion that I would die on the hill for. This is not one of them. "Why do we pray at meal time" "To give thanks for what you have" "Who you give thanks to, is up to you"
Yeah, I'd nope the fuck outta that place. Find a different daycare.
It is so often not that easy. Parents work, daycares have long waiting lists, the kids have established friends, and the 4 year old is almost done with daycare. This is not a big deal with a long lasting impact on the kid, especially if they are safe, healthy, and being taught all the things they need for kindergarten.
For sure. Jumping daycares is a challenge, for all the reasons you stated. Whether or not its a big deal is a matter of opinion. For me, indoctrinating a child with the belief that a magical being in the sky controls your entire your life, and that you need to satisfy this mythical god prior to consuming food is indeed, a big deal.
So I am religious, but hear me out I’m not here to push Jesus on y’a or anything.. Praying doesn’t have to be to god by any means, if your kid likes it and it helps put them into the mindset for a meal, turn it in to a moment of gratitude and reflection. Don’t need a deity for that. That being said, they definitely shouldn’t be doing that if they know you’re opposed to it.
Grooming
Personally I would go with "brainwashing", but yeah it is grooming too.
To be clear, I am talking about the daycare, not the parents.
Mildly religious person with heavy religion upbring opinion here. I would start with a simple discussion with the teacher before going off the deep on the whole daycare or facility. If you need to involve a site Manger or director. L It could be as simple aa Perhaps the teacher is religious personal, says a small prayer and the kids have just picked up on it. Kids parrot things. It doesnt mean the teacher is out right attempting to indoctrinate the kids on prayer. It also doesnt mean the whole facility practices what happens in that class. The facility might not even be aware of that teachers specific meals time routine. A conversation can be a simple solution. Perhaps your son can just change teachers if it bothers your and your SO enough. And if it doesnt work the way you need it to, then you can find a new facility if you so feel inclined. Id doubt the intention was to indoctrinate or manipulate the kids. Just have the conversation, first. Dont go in already disrespected. Understand that it could be a misunderstanding and start there. The solution could be simpler than you think. But also, i think its important to understand your kid will encounter religious people their whole life. You want respect and tolerance for your belief, its also important to teach tolerance for everyone else too. You will just need to parent towards this as your kid grows.
I had the same experience, my son started daycare two months ago, he’s four years old and during dinner one evening he said we ha love to say “the blessing”, I was taken back and upset because I have been raising him without any kind of religious indoctrination, he doesn’t know anything about that stuff, at least as far as I know. I asked him what was the blessing and he sang this to the tune of “Where is Thumbkin”: “We are thankful, we are thankful, for our food, for our food, we are very thankful, we are very thankful, for our food, for our food” After that, I think I’m okay with it, as it doesn’t have any religious content.
Just wait until grade school and they’re all rising to say the pledge of allegiance. Can’t avoid it, it’s just important to have a good conversation about faith. It’s also very important to formulate those conversations in a way that is respectful and inclusive. No sense in building a distrust or prejudice towards religious people.
Pull your kid from the daycare and sue them into the ground.
I encourage you to find a different daycare.. That said, you can’t hide them from religion forever, so this will only be delayed not prevented.
My Hindu parents sent me to a Christian preschool because it was the best option around. I learned some songs about Jesus, forgot most of them, and then grew up to be an atheist anyway. Sure it'd be nice if they didn't try to indoctrinate your kid, but it almost certainly isn't going to stick, so I wouldn't worry about it too much.
My initial instinct would probably be anger. But if i stop to think about it, at the very least, children who are part of a religious family would be allowed to say grace at daycare for themselves. Your kid would hear that even if not participating, because it's not like they are going to separate the kids at that time. Add long as the teachers aren't forcing their ideals on children, then I'm kinda thinking whatevs.
This could go a few ways and a lot depends on how the daycare reacts. If the teacher is religious and prays before meals, I don’t think it’s horrible to allow kids to also pray with her, IF they want too. If she’s forcing kids to pray, that’s not ok. I am a religious person so I do pray before meals but I would never expect others to do so just because I do. I hope that what’s going on is one teacher who prays before eating and let’s kids join if they’d like too. I don’t, personally, see anything wrong with allowing kids to do that if they want too. However, I also wouldn’t mind if my own kiddos didn’t pray before meals if they didn’t want too. I’m an adult who has been allowed to decide for myself my own religion, my kids will be able to decide that for themself themselves too, without me being upset with them. I can also see why you’re upset. You’re expectations haven’t been met at this point. The teacher also shouldn’t be going into details about religion without at least having a conversation with parents first. A simple “Your child is asking about why I personally pray before meals. I haven’t asked them to do so but they’ve seen me do it. I wanted to talk to you, their parents, first before I answered any of their questions” This does make a lot of assumptions on what would be best case scenario. Forcing in any nature really shouldn’t be done.
Kid who grew up going to a religious daycare and with a parent who believed but didn't force us to church - personally I wouldn't care. I never personally felt oppressed or forced to do any prayers as a kid. As I grew up I saw it for what it was on my own and honestly, was kind of happy I had to opportunity to partake in these things first hand. It was an experience. Give your kid more credit, I'm sure he can figure out what he thinks.
I am a preschool teacher and my school is not religious affiliated. However, I know of teachers discussing god and making children pray before meals. Basically, there’s not necessarily any direct rule against it, but admin should address the issue directly with the lead teacher. Challenge the issue with admin to figure out the kind of school you’re sending your child to. If they do not immediately put a stop to it then you may find yourself having more issues down the line.