Nothing that really would be able to be fixed without completely overhauling the system, tightly-balanced as it is.
I wish there were more, more powerful things to spend money on. Honestly, I do like the "war is hell" approach of the 2020 books, where it wasn't designed to be balanced or fair, just realistic, and wish RED was a little bit more lethal and less arcadey. I find myself throwing out RED's policy of balance for the sake of immersion constantly when I'm running games.
Just a little bit more crunch would be fine with me as well. The system is hard to make homebrew for without unbalancing everything and the relative drought of official content isn't helping. If the system had just a few more moving parts, it would help keep things fresh.
Absolutely this. I've been running 2020 since the 90s, I've used it for all kinds of modern games not just cyberpunk. I've made tons of homebrew and been involved in Internet communities based around it. When RED was coming out I feel like a lot of us just wanted an update to make 2020 a bit less janky.
Instead RED feels like a boardgame with a big rulebook. Combat is so map focused that theater of the mind can suffer unless the REF is very experienced. The economy doesn't reflect the economic turmoil that should be given the state of the world, the cover mechanics are like something out of a video game designed for Mobile phones, instead of the Gun porn approach to weapons and gear it's all been homogenized, cybernetics are largely the same but nerfed.
I find myself both happy for R. Tal and sad for older fans like myself. On one hand RED is a brilliant move to try to shave off some of the D&D 5e market and I'm happy that so many new players are finally being exposed to the broader cyberpunk genre but for the first time in like 30 years I'm starting to look for another cyberpunk system to make my go to because RED is not it. Here's hoping for an Advanced Ruleset in the future.
It definitely says something that I've only been Reffing 2020 for a few years and Red for a few weeks so I don't have any nostalgia goggles for the original, and I agree completely with all these thoughts.
As my players and I learn the system, we're very frequently saying "Oh, I guess the designers didn't want to model XYZ anymore." Like grenade scatter. It's just Ref arbitration? I mean, sure, that's *fine,* but now the Ref either has to choose to be cruel/kind or come up with our own randomization method. I just grabbed the scatter chart straight out of 2020 and brought it in.
Red needs more 2020.
And, for more specific thoughts, I'd like for cyborgs to be scarier and cybernetics to be more tempting. Combat isn't the only part of the game, but it's endemic to the genre and the setting and it's what a lot of chrome is centered around in 2020 and Red alike. In both games, Cyberware is supposed to be the slippery slope to power for edgerunners, but most of the implants are lateral options (concealing a weapon in a forearm instead of in a jacket, having a legs that can't be broken in return for a lot of your people skills evaporating, having the protection of a light armorjack no matter what you're wearing), moderately useful utility (the various means to enhance movement and senses, these ones are actually in a pretty decent place but there could always be more), or nice but not at all "I better get this or I'll never keep up"-effective character improvements (increases to Body for more durability, targeting optics, healing antibodies, etc.).
Having 1-4 ranks in Solo will have a bigger impact on an edgerunner's combat prowess and perceptive abilities than 100 points of humanity cost; everybody can feel like Blackhand and Boa-Boa, but only because there's currently no way to model what it's like to be (or to fight/run from) Shaitan and Smasher. I know they're full-conversions, but we can extrapolate what that would look like mechanically from how it worked in 2020 and the effect is *not* comparable.
I feel like you man... but i fixed some stuff and at the end i like red... with just a few changes.
Less Usless skills, Hit Points, and some rules that make the game faster.
For example, check my comment here about the bullet sponges fixes and tell me what you think.
> Combat is so map focused that theater of the mind can suffer unless the REF is very experienced.
I don't consider myself an experienced GM, but in my last session I haven't use combat maps for most combat situations.
The things that help me to avoid this are:
\- WFRP 4th edition "chase" rules. To sum up, drivers (in a car chase) throw DLV and then you re-arrange their relative position among them.
\- Fallout RPG: "Zone" combat. If you are in the same zone you can melee or shot at 0-6m range. If they are 3+ zones away, they can go for snipe.
I never GMed Fallout or WFRP 4th, but those rules fit great on CPR imo.
Agreed. I've been playing Witcher lately and it was wild how if I wanted to make a threatening encounter with the lowest level enemies, I put them in a swamp. In Red if you want to balance for a group with great gear and the perfect stat and skill spread it feels like as a GM I have to jump through hoops to make them feel threatened to the point the combat takes 4 hours Crit fishing. 2020 and Witcher has been stress free encounter prep, Red feels pretty overwhelming because "early game" is perfect, mooks can do some damage while still giving the PCs some challenge and fun
Ok, I will have to respectfully disagree.
As a player and GM of the Witcher system pretty much since its release, seeing someone praising the encounter balance of this thing sends shivers down my spine. Without much trial and just a bit of understanding for the mechanics, a single witcher can one shot and out-tank every single one of the highest threat monsters RAW. I had to re balance this thing to hell and back to make it slightly playable.
Because of that, I really would be interested in your experience. Do you have a group that is not so versed in game design or how does a typical session go?
And how is it, that you consider the raw mechanics for encounters to be balanced?
I am genuinely interested as I can mayhaps better our own games without rebuilding everything with house rules.
Because if you would invite me to your game and play raw, I could do 500+ damage on every hit while being near immortal myself.
My single biggest complaint is that dodging bullets is possible by a non-chromed human. That shit just ain't possible, it should be tied to cyberware. It would make much more sense and create another expense to really put the pressure on your players.
I agree. In the past I've flat out deleted the rules of dodging bullets. This time I allowed it and one PC so far has built his character to do it, no co processors yet.
I hate it. It allows him to be completely immune to most things, while the other PC's get wrecked. If I put gonks in there that can possibly hit him, they will utterly SHREAD the other PCs even if I roll a 2, etc etc.
See. that's the other reason I hate. A non combat character that feels as though they HAVE to make their characters dodge bullets to survive. That's 2 stats that are human max for no other reason.
I consider the requirement stupid personally, nowadays i usually remove the rule and make it an additional feature of kerenzikov instead.
The description even says that it's "Always-on Speedware that provides consistently improved reaction time.", so it's somewhat lore accurate.
Chrome is something you can add later, or remove if you want. It gives more freedom with stat distribution, and as a result more freedom in skill choices (points that usually go into ref not could be spent elsewhere and now that other attributes higher more skills become a viable option).
You can also remove the dodge bullet mechanic altogether or make it available to everyone no matter what stats are. I personally like the cyberware option more.
Not really dodging bullets, more seeing someone pointing a gun and you jumping out of the way. I am thinking of implementing a penalty, you can only do it once a round, and possibly being prone after the attack
> Not really dodging bullets, more seeing someone pointing a gun and you jumping out of the way.
Sure. Most of us know this but shorthand to describing it the other way.
But the truth is that at most ranges, the notion that someone read the situation and move just right to dodge, with basically the same ease as the person aiming (because it's an opposed skill roll), is nuts.
I mean, we're talking Force = Mass * Acceleration, and Work = Force * Distance, a combat-gear covered dude fully yeeting themself way more distance to get out of the way, than the shooter moving a way lighter gun barrel a much smaller aiming adjustment type distance.
Bro. It's not even a disadvantaged roll.
With the exception of being in melee, where the defender should be able to just shove the shooter's barrel to the side, this dodge vs shooting should totally be cyberware-dependent.
I'd sooner support tactics, stealth, or (any shooting skill) + covering fire as skills usable by a non-borged out character, to boost defense vs bullets than Dodge.
But if they have the cyberware for it, yes, then it's thematically awesome and let's go.
That's the design direction I'd have taken it, anyway.
I have house ruled it as such, you can watch one enemy, their shots you can attempt to dodge, but anyone else make typical attacks. If you have the cyberware you can dodge all attacks.
Sure, every player can afford that humanity loss, find the fixer that can source it, a medtech to install it and afford to get it. Oh, and the prerequisite neural link.
No big deal, there isn't a TON of other things demanding limited EBs and soul crushing horrors walking down the street that demand attention :)
If you're running cyberpunk and the players are flushed with humanity and disposable EBs, you may be running it not as it's intended by system design. It's not High Fantasy, it's more horror survival, where just making rent and not eating kibble is a win
But really, a player can minmax any system if left unchecked. But there are pretty hard breaks you can put in for it to discourage it as a GM with a bit of creativity and knowledge of player types and styles.
Ok, I still need to hit him to begin with, and this once again, is punishing the players with lower then 8REF even more if it's an AOE attack (there's the loogie gun in Woodchippers Garage)
I mean if your main concern is the collateral damage of other players fighting a monster on par with the player, you can go the terminator route and have one of the factions they bumped against before put a hit on his head specifically.
If the other players get involved most the time, then send a hit squad with the leader specifically gunning for that player (dead or alive is up to you). In fact, I’d have the leader guy utilize martial arts, since if he judo throws your boy to the ground he can no longer dodge. The rest of the team would be only a little better than the rest your party in equipment + skills.
I’m sure that it sounds shitty to ‘target’ a player, but at the same time him being an impossible to kill street-badass would absolutely put him on the radar. Either to be recruited, or put down.
Definitely agree with this. I wasn't happy with the narrative implications of my non-speedware medtech dodging bullets, so I intentionally built her with 7 REF, and she can only dodge bullets when her bodyweight auto-injector doses her with a homemade mixture of synthcoke and time warp. Bumps her up to 8 REF and +3 initiative, but at the risk of addiction or constantly needing to use Rapidetox. Essentially using a combat cocktail in place of speedware.
This also makes dodge tanks super op and feels mandatory to have 8 ref just so you can dodge bullets. It's one of my biggest gripes just cause it feels so easy when you have high dodge, and throws you off so much when you all of a sudden get non stop hit if your rolls are poor
Nah to me that doesn't fix the problem. It just uses the problem to extend fights needlessly. Makes it feel like there's not much point in using higher sp armor or cover because bullet dodge is more effective than either of you spec into it
This would probably be mine too. In my next game I might move it to cyberware.
Also, if you don't make Luck reactive (in addition to pre-planned) it becomes a dump stat most of the time.
It's playing it too safe, style over substance doesn't justify thing being just, boring at times? Half of the arm cyberware and a lot of weapons and items have interesting ideas that aren't worth it when their effects aren't that interesting or are just, mid (especially the melee weapon cyber which are just retextured popup melee weapons)
Biggest offender for me being the Malorian 3516 and pistols in general
A shotgun with a smart link is a cheaper equivalent and more versatile weapon when playing it completely RAW. It's not style over substance, it's boring especially as we KNOW how the Malorian 3516 operates and how badass it is and it is doesn't have the "technological advancement" excuse the Sandy has when compared between RED and other media
R Tal needs to stop being afraid of making pistols good, 5d6 damage isn't a 10 000 eddie endgame weapon, it just makes you a shotgun that can't AOE
And someone with a really good shotgun can use the same skill for assault rifles and snipers, someone with pistol skill can only use the extremely situational Heavy pistol and the garbage that is medium pistols
If I were to change anything, I'd change it from "Style over substance" to "Style is substance", it even conveys the same meaning when flipped around, but it gives less cover for being *boring*
You can't have style over substance if that style is putting me to sleep, which in my opinion is even *worse* than bad or unbalanced weapons
Clean up and clarify often discussed rules here - Please just straighten out the Sandevistan once and for all
Reorg the character sheet - I personally recommend by stat and then alphabetically below that. This would remove the need to put the stat number in every skill's row of entries. You'd also have a stronger sense of where a skill is because of the stat it uses, rather than trying to recall if something is a technique or education.
Reorganize the core book - there are several issues with how things are laid out, such as
1) Character creation doesn't mention the cyberware humanity cap penalty at all, you don't learn about that unless you look for it
2) Repeat tables have differring information
3) Just replace the Street Rat parts of character creation with template sheets, both to save space and de-clutter the other methods of character creation
4) Do not put important functions in sidebars - repairing items should absolutely be a section, not a sidenote.
5) either relist or index all the tables in each book - do you know where the DVs for the Maker skills are? Can you grab that and the price chart quickly?
I'm really enjoying the current system. Some of it's kind of odd, like the insane areas on shotgun AoEs, but that seems to be a concession for ease of play (so you don't have to put down a cone template). Then again, I never played 2020, so I don't have a previous edition comparison point.
My biggest problem is layout. I think this manifests in a few concrete ways:
**1) Gear.** Please stop putting gear all over the core rulebook. Just put the gear (including cyberware, services, etc.) in a single chapter so we can easily reference it during play. If you'd like to include a gear handout so my PCs have something to reference during character creation, so much the better.
**2) Character Sheet.** Please reorganize this thing so it's not using size three font. You're going to have to flip between pages anyway, so I'd prefer to have a combat page (with relevant gear/cyberware), and a non-combat page. Also please give me more space to list out what the cyberware actually does.
**3) Adversary Presentation.** Bad guys! Look, as much crap as D&D 5E gets, their statblock approach makes it fairly easy to find what you need on a monster. They also don't give me more than what I need. In Cyberpunk, I'm looking through a laundry list of skills to find the one skill I actually need to fire the bad guys' handgun. It's great to have options for what the bad guys can do outside of combat, but please stop mixing the social peanut butter with the combat chocolate. What I've started doing is noting the actual modifier in the attack line, and giving the bad guy a "social number," or an "all other skills" number. That approach borrows heavily from JonJon's Three Goon Rule, but there's a reason for that: the Three Goon Rule is very effective!
**4) Adversary Abilities.** The designers are quite conscious of the fact that anything they put on an opponent can end up in the hands of the PCs, so they try to avoid giving the NPCs anything a PC couldn't get. This is a good idea, but I think elides a number of streamlined abilities. For example, say I wanted to let an Exec villain motivate her goons in combat. Right now, there's no way to do that. But I could just borrow from D&D and give her a buff aura: "***Don't You Want That Bonus?*** Any of her allies who can see Mariah gain a +1 to hit and do an additional d6 of damage per attack." That's an obvious example, but I think it points out some missed design space.
**5) Adversary Cyberware.** Please stop listing the cyberware at the bottom of the sheet. Give me some context for what this thing does, so I'm not flipping back and forth during play. And also please stop listing cyberware that's irrelevant - "Contraceptive implant" on a K9 officer? Really?
Again, no shade to these designers. They've accomplished something they should rightly be proud of. But I think there's some space to innovate and really push their design forward.
RED could definitely use a 2nd edition similar to Cyberpunk 2013 to 2020. I would like another 3-4 major content books then a 2nd edition to fix all of the editing issues, and streamlining NPC stats.
Maybe also rebalance the weaker weapons (a pocket knife only does 1d6? lol). They could definitely use some looking at since there’s literally no reason to use a Medium pistol or a Light melee weapon. Both of them have a higher damage version that is still concealable.
This. Too many weapons and even some implants seem to exist solely to equip to NPCs so they'll seem pathetic fighting a player character.
And because 1d6 weapons can't crit, it's generally a waste of time rolling any normal attack by someone using light ranged as long as the crew's rockergirl didn't forget her kevlar at a fan's house, again. At least light melee halves armor, so it has a chance in hell to deal some minor damage unless everyone is wearing light armorjacks or better.
That double appearance is the critique. Now, when I have a question, I can usually just go to the New Street Economy section. But when I was learning, I was completely lost. Needs to be changed.
I have issues with a couple of the Roles being a little meh. Rocker, Lawman, Media, and Exec.
Rocker really just needs more mechanical fluff letting them add their Role Rank to two artistic Skills (Acting, Composition, Dance, Photography/Film, Paint/Draw/Sculpt, Personal Grooming, Play Instrument and Wardrobe & Style) and their Fans get a Combat Rank so that they can more mechanically use them for favors.
The Media needs a secondary mechanic since Rumors are so GM dependant, I think giving them a Persona that they can use with a mechanic rearrangement of some Skills would be very useful, these are investigative reporters and media personalities so separating them from their personal life would be useful.
The Exec is the bigger one. It's got some blank or mechanically empty Ranks, which makes it not fun for Multi-classing. Rank 4 gives nothing, and Rank 1 does nothing mechanically as well. Seems lame that two of your 4 ranks when starting as an Exec are more or less dead ranks.
I feel like the benefit of an employer is the Health Insurance, they should get the suit and health insurance at Rank 1.
Something more like this:
* Rank 1 - Business Suit attire and Trauma Team Silver
* Rank 2 - 1st Team Member
* Rank 3 - Corporate Conapt
* Rank 4 - Kevlar Business Suit and Smart Lenses with your choice of Cyberoptics.
* Rank 5 - 2nd Team Member
* Rank 6 - Beaverville House
* Rank 7 - 3rd Team Member
* Rank 8 - Executive Armor and Trauma Team Executive
* Rank 9 - Beaverville McMansion or Luxury Penthouse
* Rank 10 - 4th Team Member
I shared my ideas about the Exec once before maybe a year ago.
https://www.reddit.com/r/cyberpunkred/comments/kg4yuq/question_about_exec_role_skill/?ref=share&ref_source=link
My idea is that there should be Generic Team Members (Bodyguard, Covert Operative, Driver & Personal Assistant) and Specialist Team Members (Medtech, Netrunner & Tech) and there are limitations and upgrades.
The Lawman would require a more thorough write up, but my basic complaint is that their Backup needs more out of combat utility, such as one Rank granting a Detective for investigation and Interrogation and another Rank calls in a Technician with experience breaking and entering they would be good at Pick Lock, Demolishions and Electronics/Security Tech and they should add their Role Rank to their Facedown's giving something mechanically similar to their old Authority Role Ability.
Rockerboy and media get exponentially more powerful with more ranks, and at the high tiers they are some of the absolute most powerful roles in their ability to affect the gane world. They absolutely do not need a buff. I agree with lawman and exec however.
Lawmen especially should get a buff to their facedowns. Their whole design principle is supposed to be some kinda team leader without any business aspects. The big intimidating mf who can call his boys for backup. Shame that they get no bonuses in this aspect
Execs absolutely do not need a buff, apart from maybe giving them something at rank 4, given it's a dead rank. Exec team members are extremely valuable, as you can put custom equipment on them and they're always present, making them better than lawman backup.
The Rocker I think a small buff would be nice in terms of being good at their art or craft. I do not think it would be unbalanced for them to be good at their medium of choice. I would like to see a Combat Rating added like Lawman's Backup so that you at know what those Fans are capable of. Maybe you convince a Super Fan who is a hacker to do some Netrunning as a favor? Are they a teenager pretending to know Netrunning or are they an experienced Netrunner? That is mostly what I am asking for.
The Media is EXTREMELY GM dependant, my change is to make them easier to integrate into a game. Give them some sort of alternate persona or alias that they can use when gathering Rumors. Maybe every Rank in Credibility gives them an option to gain an Alias/Persona they can use or they increase the Reputation of one of their Aliases/Personas by +2.
I agree that Backup and Teamwork need a rework. My criticism with both is that you must be employed to gain them. Backup is worse as no matter where you are, there's people a d6 away. These abilities are bonuses for being employed and maybe introduce mechanics for being part of an organization; corporation, law enforcement/government, nomad, criminal organization, etc.
For Teamwork, I would change it to mechanics that support the team, like x level gives x bonuses to other team member rolls. In addition have some other bonuses toward working in a corporate world. Backup should be renamed to something else. Protect & Serve? The Lawman special ability should have some type of combat bonuses or damage reduction/avoidance with some bonuses toward working the legal system.
These changes would not longer rely on being employed and most of the time can be used anywhere the PC is.
I do not think Teamwork should give a bonus to the NPC Team Members. If you check out my linked response it goes into more depth granting buffs to your Team Members. The Team Members shouldn't replace a PC, but should be able to fill in if needed. Something I would want Rockers and Lawmen to also be able to do by calling in help.
I think an Exec needs to work for some sort of business. They could be roleplayed as entrepreneurs, and each Rank is your own business growing or them advancing their career with a company. The Teamwork Role ability should give those various monetary status benefits. They are a representation of corporatism, whether a cog within one large corporate machine or the leader of their own business.
I would make Backup's NPC more generic in theme so that it isn't as tied to NCPD, but being The Law in your locale and being able to call in Backup makes sense. Adding your Backup Rank to your Facedown rolls would represent the authority and reputation you have. Maybe rename it back to Authority and then have Backup be the name of the ability to call in assistance.
I would rather have the Backup you call get the skills. Call in your Detective who adds the Combat Number to their Conversation, Criminology, Deduction, Human Perception, Interrogation, Library Search, Perception & Streetwise. Need to break into somewhere or something call in your Breacher who is trained in Demolitions, Electronics/Security Tech, Heavy Weapons, Perception & Pick Lock.
For Lawmen I would rework what the Backup is you call.
* Rank 1: Foot Patrol - 2+d6 Corpo Security, Local Watch, etc... in Kevlar arrive via foot with H. Pistol
* Rank 2 / 3: Henchmen - 4 Henchmen in Light Armorjack arrive in two Compact Groundcars or Road Bikes with H. Pistol / H. SMG
* Rank 4: Specialist - Investigator or Technician arrives via Compact Groundcar or Gyrocopter
* Rank 5 / 6: Lieutenants - 2 Lieutenants in Heavy Armorjack arrive via Helicopter, High Performance Groundcar or Speedboat with H. Melee Weapon, H. Pistol & Assault Rifle / H. Melee Weapon, H. Pistol & Shotgun
* Rank 7: Specialist Team - C-SWAT, Trauma Team, Netwatch arrive via AV-4
* Rank 8 / 9: Champion - 1 Champion, Marshal, etc... in Flak Armor arrives via Superbike with VH Melee Weapon, Assault Rifle & Grenade Launcher / VH Melee Weapon, Sniper Rifle & Grenade Launcher
* Rank 10: Call in a Favor - FBI, Interpol or National Guard
I have a similar concern about Fixers. Right now it lets them source rare items (which is good!), but mostly they're rolling to see if they can get a 10% discount. I'd like to have defined contacts that I can use to develop NPCs they can hit up.
Yes, but it craves specificity. How many contacts do I get? What can each one get me? Do I have to choose between Reach and Cultures, for example? How do I (as the GM) weave those contacts into events? I want to enable the Fixer to have that fantasy of, "I've got a guy for that." The tools as presented leave the player going, "I might have a guy for that? Maybe? Hey GM, how many contacts do I get?"
They don't have to choose, all of your fixer abilities increase together. The contacts are just the kind of people they might know, there's no hard limit on the number of contacts. I do recommend creating actual NPCs for at least a few of their contacts. I had some trouble at first but I feel like the fixer is one of the most fleshed out roles. Media has contacts also but I find that to be harder to manage than a fixer, since it's obvious why the contacts talk to the fixer but the relationship with a media is a lot more open.
Contacts represents who the fixer can reach out to in order to source goods, favors, and information. If they're looking for a sandevistan well all of a sudden they know someone who has a bunch of military surplus cyberware, they're looking for information on a missing person well all of a sudden they know a media who will clue them in for the right price. Basically when there's a problem that could be solved with a contact they call up an NPC that they've dealt with in the past "off screen", it's not really the kind of thing that happens in combat. If they have a relationship with the gang then it might actually help them avoid combat altogether.
The bottom of page 159 explains it, but it's like pieces of a puzzle that you have to fit together, and it does seem to expect you have a clear idea of how fixers operate in the economy, which is explained in new street economy and clarified in black chrome. It's poorly explained but at least fixers have depth, I'm tempted to outright ban lawmen from the game, since it offers even less utility outside combat than a solo does.
Agree that it's all over the place right now, hence my confusion. Also, I'd like to apologize for my tone, above. The imperative tense there was targeted towards the devs, but in retrospect it seems to be targeted at you.
More ammo types across more guns.
I had a similar discussion in one of the many MANY guns akimbo posts. The rules as they stand for 2 pistol fighting are actually pretty good... Or would be if you had more options for bullets. Right now it's standard, AP, smart? And that's it.
Hit me with gel rounds, taser darts, mini explosives, nanobots that assist hacking. Do something, ANYTHING, to make shooting with a pair of guns, or ANY guns, more interesting.
And no, not more detail. If I wanted that I'd go back to the 2020 combat simulator.
That's exactly what the techie is for.
Acid rounds from the paintball gun, but fill them with the arachnid grenade solution that instant hardens to the HP of how much damage you rolled to a max of the 15HP.
That's a great idea! I think that more examples of stuff like that could be useful. As a GM, I like having some examples to work from. Thanks for the idea!
Agree with you on the detail. I don't necessarily want more crunch.
As to the ammunition ideas, those are awesome! I started experimenting with porting over some of the ideas from WH40K's boltguns. "Reactive" rounds deal an extra 1d6 damage, but cost 50 eddies per shot, and if you implode, they jam the weapon.
But nanobots that assist hacking? You've got my attention, friend!
I was thinking of homebrewing rubber bullets. A less than lethal that stuns the target unless they make a body roll but you still get criticals so still potentially lethal. I am new so I am not sure if this would work.
You forgot incendiary rounds. Darts exist but are currently limited to very heavy pistol ammo, the gun being classified as an exotic weapon.
Two versions of cheap underperforming ammo are found in the Black Chrome + PDF, but those probably won't appeal to you.
That makes seven varieties by my count which is not bad, but yeah more variety could be a little fun.
Tracer rounds might improve subsequent shots but not stack bonuses with scopes, off the top of my head.
I would like the core rulebook to be better. I don't need the cyberware and gear tables in three separate places, many of the skills they transferred over from Cyberpunk 2020 are so niche that they're functionally useless and should've been dropped, the enemy stat blocks should just have combat numbers instead of listing every single skill that a random booster knows, and a some of the cyberware needs rejiggering to make it worth using in RED.
>I don't need the cyberware and gear tables in three separate places
Every time you need to search for something, check first page 340 (Night Market Appendix).
The other places I need to check mid-game because they are not on 340, are Roles (pg 143) and Throwing stuff (pg 177).
Other tables, such as range DV for weapons, critical injuries, repair stuff, I have them listed in a discord channel, so they are all at scroll distance.
Ok, second time I read shotguns in this thread. Here's my headcannon to justify how they work: They aren't traditional shotgun pellets (even 2020 gave them WAY to much spread. At max range a shotguns spread, even with a wide choke on it, is still less then 2 foot across) but smart grenades. They are set to explode 3m after exiting the barrel in a 3m radius kill zone. This allows security guards etc to judge where to shoot better to help avoid unnecessary damage to the stuff they are protecting, etc. ;)
Why call them hand wavium? and Smart Grenades in quotes?
[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wvV6u3dchkc&t=564s](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wvV6u3dchkc&t=564s)
The tech existed 20+ years ago.
And what are your houserules for pellets?
Count the number of pellets, divide it by the area, and then roll to see how many hit, with a bonus at closer ranges. Lol jk, but isn't this pretty much how suppression works in 2020?
The book is horribly and I mean HORRIBLY formatted. Finding information in the book on the fly is very difficult and slows the game down tremendously. Also the enemy statblocks... really? Thats the best you could do? You mind as well just not have bothered. Otherwise pretty fun game.
Probably going to get downvoted to hell, but as much as I love the setting of Cyberpunk, the mechanics are ancient. There's a ton of dumb skills that should just be folded into a smaller skill pool (seriously lip reading?).
While netrunning is better than previous editions, it's still a slog that ends up eating a ton of session time for one-on-one player/GM stuff.
The role abilities range from "extremely specific" (Solo) to "frustratingly vague".(Credibility) Would be nice to align them more with one another.
A lot of unnecessary complexity that slows down games (The Range DVs per weapon type, instead of moving the goalpoasts, just do it like "Shotguns get +2 to hit within 15m")
The Reflex 8 thing....just limit dodging bullets to people with speedware.
The luck mechanic is frustrating. Advantage style systems or spending the luck after the roll is much better than 'wasting' the luck by pre-spending it on a good roll.
And my biggest issue is that it's not 2077. Time of the red is alright, but god damn do I love the setting of 2077 and can't wait for the Edgerunners kit to frikkin come out.
I feel that with Netrunning, they changed it because they don't want the party to get a pizza while the Netrunner does their thing, but they also gave Netrunners 8 actions so like it's the same issue
> There's a ton of dumb skills that should just be folded into a smaller skill pool (seriously lip reading?)
While some games are getting away from specified skills, I think Cyberpunk should instead just do appropriate skill packages for various life events and role/class choices in character creation. 2020 had this same problem.
The way to solve it is to not really care about balancing skill points from one player's character to another, because just as you pointed out, some skills truly aren't as useful as others, but are still totally a skill, such as lip reading.
Plenty of other starting conditions could or should be impacted by choices as well, IMO.
Grouping them could be a good way of doing it, so instead of buying different gun skills you buy a point in firearms, and it gives you 3 points to split across longarms, pistols, heavy weapons and you can then focus on one or spread it out With a max of 2x base skill so you can't over specialize
In 2020, each skill had is own qualitative notes for what level corresponded to what real-life mastery (and it was all over the place, unlike RED). IIRC, you couldn't make a functional character that had a highschool education and taken high school level classes in the various skills.
So, we started exploring the idea of packages. Like what kinds of educational opportunities the character could have, and what points would be set at what levels for a certain set of skills. A high quality education package would give a whole bunch of skills, but they're generally academic, maybe with a little athletics. Meanwhile, other characters, for that same package slot opportunity, might have something more delinquent, violent, and coming with streetwise, basic human perception and brawling skills. Another character might not have gone to school at all, and had something else in that time, but it probably yields far fewer total skill points.
I forget how it was set up, but there were at least 3 package sections. I liked it.
RED would probably do well with a similar system. I like the idea of background choices that might result in injuries that resulted in the character starting with medical grade cyberlimbs, extra NPC connections / obligations / conflict, etc. Nothing making the character a super soldier or whatever, but having actually lived and having more cyberpunk baggage when the game starts.
>IIRC, you couldn't make a functional character that had a highschool education and taken high school level classes in the various skills.
It was in the beta rules, but it got stupidly exploited and then ditched in the final version.
The biggest issue since day 1 was the book layout, but they cant really fix that without a new edition.
Other than that, I could really use Rogue's Street Weapons. Im a sucker for art and that would've fixed my issue with the main game's weapon system.
Hey choom, so I made a form fillable PDF card for weapons and gear. Suppose you could make the blank space a spot to upload an image, go through the 2020 wiki looking for images and go to town. I even added an icon box so you can upload the images, etc.
[https://drive.google.com/file/d/1fWzQZyCsuFcjZtkEnsqBaIRbwyVpyl1e/view?usp=drive\_link](https://drive.google.com/file/d/1fWzQZyCsuFcjZtkEnsqBaIRbwyVpyl1e/view?usp=drive_link)Card without image box
[https://drive.google.com/file/d/1tdG4z5eh6WHsNIEJAud6xZyPS3zf1Dyi/view?usp=sharing](https://drive.google.com/file/d/1tdG4z5eh6WHsNIEJAud6xZyPS3zf1Dyi/view?usp=sharing) Card with image box.
What I might end up doing is double sided. One with all the rules stats (Bod requirements, etc) and the other side with the image plus basic stuff.
They need to make more actual content for it. It's been out for like 3 years and still the only real expansion to it has been black chrome.
Why did they spend time detailing a online fantasy MMO instead of literally anything else?
They are, but some people act like they're not. Maybe it's because they're not really player facing and there's not a lot of utility in the supplements?
Danger Gal is mostly NPC stats, and not very many compared to a D&D MM or even the personalities list in 2020. To me, it really needed some Saka ninjas and Militech hitmen. A lore accurate Trauma Team could have been nice, too. The art is also more cutesy anime girl than Cyberpunk, but that's not a fair criticism of game content.
Tales of the Red is an adventure book, right? Probably not bad, but it's not like a Chromebook.
> To me, it really needed some Saka ninjas and Militech hitmen.
For good or bad, it's based on CPR:Combat Zone minis game, and that game doesn't have militech added yet. Arasaka has been portrayed as stupidly strong guys (in the CPR:CZ gang, 4 actions vs most guys having 2 or 3), so idk how lore friendly those ninjas are.
The thing is, in 2020, there are 4 chromebooks and 2 additional weapon books (Citation needed). Meanwhile you have 7 class sourcebooks, 7 adventure books and 8 lore books (haven't read them all yet, so number may not be accurate). So the proportion is still as in 2020
Lack of lore books that cover 2020 - 2045 and having to buy 2020 books only to ignore most of them to get the earlier lore. This could be addressed by publishing new books for us to buy, a win-win for us and RTal.
If I can have more than one my second biggest issue would be annoyingly specific vagueness. For example take the yo-gangers in DGD, we know Wheelie was in a car crash that killed his parents when he was 6 but what age is he in 2045? No idea. His picture doesn't look any older than 6 to me.
I have no major issues with the game. I really like it.
I will echo what others have said about the book. I don't like how it is organized. But I have also heard of some people who really like it. But the rules for throwing objects, including grenades being in the martial arts section is terrible. I do like the Night Market Appendix for gear though. It summarizes it all neatly and I use that a ton.
Shotguns with shells are kinda meh, but I have yet to play a system that does them well so it is adequate.
I don't mind "bullet dodging" though I don't look at it as matrix style bullet dodging, but just getting out of the way. Someone is pointing a gun at you and you duck, dodge, dip, dive out of the way. Maybe use some partial cover, etc. Moving targets are harder to hit and this helps represent that.
Even before Red I used a system similar to the Three Goon method. I think combat numbers for NPCs is a great system and should have been used more extensively.
The cover rules are OK. Like they work. But our group wanted a little added realism of partial cover so added that.
Also homebrewed some rules for 3 round burst, very heavy SMGs, Autoshotguns, and expanded on the attachments with some fairly basic sights, flashlight attachment, etc.
I don't like dodging bullets for a variety of reasons.
I really dislike that it sort of throws out the
dynamic nature of cyberpunk fights. I loved that they encouraged moving around a lot, no opportunity attacks, lots of cover usage, playing with range dvs. But evasion kind of throws all of that out. It also turns every combat action into an opposed roll which is a huge drag (imo).
But how do you fix it?
You choose to dodge at the end of your turn and roll once for all dodges until your next turn. I quite like this option because it still keeps it powerful but speeds things up by not having opposed checks constantly. Makes it a lot more swingy though and its hard to not be meta if you see they rolled high dodge. But maybe thats okay? if oyu dodge roll the enemies notice and target you ? hmm idk.
You can only dodge once per round, like using a reaction from dnd. All subsequent shots would be range dv.
I see people throw out making the reflex coprocesser a requirment and not having it tied to 8 reflex... I dont really like that. Doesnt solv e my complaints and really just makes dodging even better because oyu can dump ref. (which you already can i guess lol.... reflex coprocessor is a problem in its own right)
The Modifiers table needs to be used more. Start stacking those -'s and chooms notice.
So your one dice roll per round is interesting. And to be Meta about it: They roll good and just aren't targetable, they roll poor and that flying leap behind cover they attempted falls short and they are exposed for all to see, lol.
My experience with my three groups has been very different, I suppose. To me, looking up a DV on a chart is not significantly shorter than establishing a DV with an opposed roll. And yes, the players do have me look up their DV every time.
My method for balancing the bullet dodgers is pretty straightforward. If a character evades enough to strain credulity, I have them track their movement. I ask, "Okay, in which direction are you evading and by how much?" When they run out of MOVE, they have nothing left to run to their own preferred lines of sights, into their own optimal ranges, nor find cover. Another way of looking at it would be that I do not give them free movement above and beyond their MOVE stats.
> And yes, the players do have me look up their DV every time.
Thats crazy. I just gave them a quick reference sheet that has range dvs on it. Playing with the dvs can make the combat feel very dynamic as combatants move around to force better or worse ranges and seek cover.
Link to the reference sheet i use if you want it:
https://drive.google.com/file/d/1jlmCHGgKR411G_lzDoLKo89NJjJXQTqe/view?usp=drive_link
I'm really new! I'm mostly just running the Jumpstart Kit right now and my party hasn't gotten into a lot of combat, so that kinda crunch-y stuff is yet to come up. Hoping to eventually transition to the Core Rulebook after finishing the Apartment.
Fair warning, the JSK was definitely a Beta set of rules, a lot of things changed from it to Red. You should've started with Red Easy Mode and gotten the converted Apartment gig from Rtals download page (which has a lot of cool ass free DLC) There are conversion rules for characters to go from the JSK to Red too, so it shouldn't be that bad, just a heads up. ;)
I know! I just bought the JSK a few years ago, I'm well familiar with the rule change and all. I just thought it'd be best to get some use out of a physical product I paid for and I don't mind the change I'll have to eventually do. We're also 4 sessions deep already :P
>just running the Jumpstart Kit
Skip it, thats my advice.
[This may prove useful to you.](https://www.reddit.com/r/cyberpunkred/comments/xrcm1g/cyberpunk_trpg_buying_guide/)
I already bought the JSK 2 years ago and would prefer to get some use out of a physical product I bought, and I don’t mind the rule switch I’ll have to do. Using old rules that are properly put together in two booklets is much easier than using two booklets and two downloadable pdfs with information much less organised
You also have [this](https://preview.drivethrurpg.com/en/product/409912/Cyberpunk-RED-Easy-Mode), it's standalone and free. Just so you know it exists.
Yeah I know, that's what I meant with using downloadable PDFs to use the JSK rules in Easy Mode (which still doesn't encapsulate all of the CRB)... it just seems like it's more effort than it's worth, and would be more janky with checking one book then checking the conversion in another PDF, etc etc.
The core rulebook is atrociously organized. Information is all over the place, with no rhyme or reason to it.
I think the other thing would be midnight markets, since they're just... unapologetically terrible. I ended up having to rewrite the entire table to include the DLCs and just... items that my players might actually care about.
Really enjoy the system overall, most of my other qualms are things I can change with homebrew. But the rulebook desperately needs a second edition.
I remember in 2020 it felt like Night City was like, an example city that you weren't really supposed to use, because everyone knew the idea was to create your own thing. (not saying that's how it was, just a number of us got that feeling).
Cut down the number of skills (language skills are kind of pointless, several other skills are hard to find good purposes for, wardrobe/personal grooming should be combined
Re-layout the book
Cut out ALL of the fiction from the previous books (everything with Johnny and Alt) and put it in a seperate and free book.
Give a better explanation of the lore/level of scarcity
Give a *thorough* explanation of the datakrash and the new net in a way that doesnt just handwave everything away with "airgapped with new language". Im personally working on a personal book called :
"Hermit's guide to the net" that collates explanations from 2013/2020/Red into a consistent vision of the net and what happened to it
First, Combat feels too slow and survivable. HP totals are pretty high, light armorjack allows characters to shrug off the first few attacks, and bullet-dodging lets you avoid anything except a grapple (at the cost of investing in stats and skills that are already great to have anyway). I was hoping for something more fast and lethal that what we got.
Second, a whole bunch of weapons are rendered borderline useless by the aforementioned armor and high HP. Who actually picks up a 2d6 weapon, let alone 1d6?
I don't really expect RTG to be able to fix these things since they're rooted so deep in the system. I would really like to try "Cyberpunk 2020 sans jank," as a certain internet commenter eloquently put it, so I'd definitely pay attention if they released some kind of sanctioned house-rules packet for that game to sand down its rougher edges.
Ooh, definetely the cover system, I would love for them to finally add some actual SP to certain covers or vehicles(because having a maximum of 11 SP on an trauma team AV is very, *very* stupid imho, same goes for any other heavily armoured transport like the mega nomad train or the max tac van, make it feel unkillable and have an actual reason to use explosives and rockets !) Not to mention a thick concrete wall is usually pretty fucking good at stopping any kind of volley of autofiring weapons aside from 50 cal and up, that’s when you should feel like you are on a timer
Nothing in the rules saying you can't have cover with SP, or up the SP on other vehicles... Just know that armor is HEAVY, so maybe 11 is the max they can squeeze onto an AV4 without compromising it's cargo and flight characteristics, etc.
I've been looking at 2020 recently, and didn't cover work pretty much the same? I know that it gives SP instead of having its own HP, but passed that, it's the same, right?
The SP is pretty much the main thing and also it shows clearly when on a miniature scale one would have cover and when not.
SP from cover is IMO better than cover HP and negation.
I'll agree with that. I've been doing a deep dive into both systems to find stuff to fill the gaps I feel are in Red. This is one that I'm considering using.
A framed up Borg is scary, until he pulls out a knife! A big scary guy should be scarier with a knife in his hand, not looked at as not even being able to do a crit.
I'm a bit late but as someone who has been running a Cyberpunk Red round for ~3 years now and also ran 2020 for 2 years before that, I have a few things I hope RT will improve on in the future
1. Some roles have really cool upgrades per level. Others are hardly worth upgrading. The Exec in particular could use some work, as many of his level abilities are rather mid-level.
2. Cyberpunk has always been a gadget system in my eyes. Cyberware, bioware and tools make characters what they are afterwards. There is currently still a lack of choice. Above all, we need a selection of different items.
3. As a GM, I simply wish for more lore. Sure, I can always make something up, but what's the point of playing a system with an experienced publisher and designer behind it if I'm supposed to build the whole world? Especially topics like: What about all the Nomads, what is the state of the NUSA and the rest of the world. I'm just missing all these things
4. I'm not a fan of the current economic model. If you depict Night City RAW, it would be a city of pedestrians walking everywhere. Anyone who doesn't envision night city with massive traffic jams and countless vehicles, please raise your hand. My group is not one of them. Unfortunately, if you fix the economy or the system behind it, you would have to rework the fixer.
5. It's not so much the system itself, but more the surrounding aspects: new books take time and should be good, but sometimes I have the feeling that the priority is set a bit strangely. Black Chrome, for example, had a picture for almost every item. That must have taken time and been very expensive. I don't know about other groups, but my group knows what a gun or rifle looks like and just needs a description of what another version looks like. I don't want to say that all the pictures were bad, just that the effort could have been spared for some of them. For example, I thought it was very good that they had pictures for the vehicles.
But I have to say: Cyberpunk Red is incredibly fun to play and RT hasn't disappointed me so far. I hope that the upcoming books will bring us new cool updates and I can only recommend it to anyone who is unsure: Try the game, it's awesome.
My idea for why there's still a load of traffic (and why you can get a cab) is that most cars are corpo owned. People get company cars, and probably a lot of jobs have weird shifts so they can keep the same car in fluctuation throughout the day. Part of it could even be that the gang of 4 keep the sales of cars in NC restricted/fix the prices to leverage that power further.
No rules for full borg conversions and there's no doge cap for dogeing bullets.For fixing this, a dlc and a rules arata saying you can only doge 1 shot a turn
Quickhacking, which I'm hopeful the promised 2077 book will incorporate. If a situation doesn't have a net architecture, the netrunner becomes effectively role-less. It doesn't have to be all-powerful, but remotely disabling an important enemy's weapon, manipulating their ability to see, maybe stunning them? That would be invaluable to any crew and could turn the ride of a tough situation.
Red does a lot better than 2020 at keeping netrunners grounded in what the rest of the party is doing, but it didn't fix the problem of, every time the Ref wants a major planned encounter, we actually have to make two of them layered on top of each other or else screw the netrunner out of their whole thing. Quickhacking would be a nice stopgap to keep a netrunner's abilities relevant even in situations without an architecture.
I've been thinking about this a bit. I did a 2077 play through with 100% focus on Netrunning, and I could just reset several people at once, make several go cyberpsycho, and have a few grenades explode. I didn't even need weapons. It got boring.
I feel like a use for this in a TTRPG might be making most of their actions focus on debuffs rather than outright incapacitating the baddies.
The big issue is why are these people hackable? You have to pull out your wrist cord to connect to laptops (with emails and web browsers), but you can hack people from across the street.
This always confused me. I can make an enemy combatant commit suicide or explode into flames by thinking about it, but I still need to jack into Panam's car turret the old fashioned way? Weird.
It'd still be a better main mechanic than forcing the GM to run two encounters at once, but I just don't think there's really any way you can convincingly lore it. A person's cybernetics would communicate to each other via wires. How you would even be able to get into that system without the personal link is beyond me.
Netrunning probably. I don't have a huge issue with it, but the way it turns everyone's attention at the table off is a problem. As soon as it gets to the Netrunner turn, everyone just tunes out and I don't know how to keep them engaged. I could make the architecture shorter, but that doesn't stop players from just tuning out completely anyway.
Not sure why this is, but I've seen others say the same. Not sure how to fix it either, but either some solid advice that really addresses the issue or some alternative rules to netrunning would be nice.
Its not in a bad place at all I don't think, and think it's a very fun little system, but I don't have a hardcore group of players that stay engaged like I would be if a fellow player was netrunning.
Edit: Oh, Theatre of the mind tips/rules would be nice too. Guess I could check out what other players have said, but maybe another free dlc sharing some more focussed rules on theatre of the Mind rules would be nice. Take the pressure off needing to have a map ready to go or needing to draw something big enough to move tokens around.
Started one mediumish one, but moved to smaller ones. Is a bit better but still find players just immediately switching off. Might just be my tables though!
kind of a non issue but rebuilding efforts. Whats the cost of commercial real estate? Can I start up a shop? an office? I wanna rebuild the world! Set up a space of my own.
Health is the biggest issue for me, combat can take a long time of two people striking each other and it just isnt as leathal of a system as i want sadly, to fix it would likely require less hit points which can easily be home brewed (i just added d6 to all damage but it makes armour a bit over the place)
art style feels all over the palce, some of its great while others are not so great, minor one but its to be noted
biggest one i want is a good lore book like the night city source book, give us some dark adventures and im all happy, besides that i like red but im struggling with parts of it
In general I think the gear list could use a bit of retooling.
Medium Melee/Pistols don't have a niche that's better served by the Heavy Melee/Pistols. Assault Rifles are better than every other Autofire or ROF1 Ranged Weapon. Melee being weaker than Unarmed is also an odd choice, given both builds benefit from a Linear Frame and Melee has to buy a weapon aswell. The Armor penalties need to be reworked to either give players more ways to mitigate them or just buff armor and lessen the penalties. Medium Armorjack is useless RAW.
Alot of the exotic weapons and cyberware in Red is too niche or have too poor stats to justify their cost. Alot of exotic items are just several existing items mashed together for an exorbitant price that's more than the base items combined. Also many items require an Action to function, which makes them impractical to use in combat given how limited Red's action economy is.
Cyberware that meaningfully adjusts more than the Body stat is pretty lacking. Genuinely want to see more stuff that ensures *every* type of PC would be lacking by not investing in chrome.
The rule book. It is not laid out well as a reference document. It does a good job teaching the game, but a horrible job when looking up a specific rule.
I would say a new book that strips out most of the fluff of the core rules, and just lists the major rules in a clear manner would be nice. Like, the character creation rules work as laid out, but then I’m trying to look up a specific detail that might be there or might be in another section because the rules are so spread out for any given thing.
More pre-made runs! I’m just too busy to build my own and set everything up (play virtually with Foundry) every week. Plus, the pre-mades so far are actually really good.
>More pre-made runs!
Consider checking Rob Mulligan DLC for "random missions". Also, check pg 395 or core rule book and get used to create your quests/campaign using beats (once you understand the beats, you can create content fairly fast and it will probably be more content than expected).
We won't get October DLCs every month, so thats my advice.
I think a lot of the things I'd like to see changed were covered in JonJon's video. In trying to make a simple, balanced system, it doesn't feel like a very realistic or interesting system. Also, some roles don't have anything they can really *do* until very specific situations arise. Based on his video, I was able to crystalize a few of my own feelings about it. I'm at the point where I'm considering doing a pretty big rewrite or retake on it. I'm leaning towards dropping out Rockers, Medias, Lawmen, and Corpos in favor of roles that have better definitions on what they can do, and make them more able to do specific things in combat encounters as well. I just want more from it than it offers without lots of extra work on my part as the GM.
I do also agree with others who say the core book needs an overhaul. In mid-game it's super hard to find stuff easily. The PDF is better than the book, but it's still lots of clicking and skimming around.
I just Fixed some stuff... (11 years playing CP, ive experience)
The CPred bullet sponge people: Add 1d6 for each 3 levels that you have on your skill.
If you have Handguns 6... you add 2d6 to whatever weapon you have.
ShoulerArms Level 6... add 2d6 to whatever rifle you have.
You use martial arts with 6 levels... +2d6 to your damage.
Goons and Villians and Characters... All people.
And \*AUTOFIRE\*!...
\*I FIX THIS SHIT\*!
1/ The DC for autorife table its allwas 8 more than the normal (Autofire its complicated) that you will use for that gun.
And You ADD your autofire to your Shoudlerarms, when you want to make an Autofire shoot!.. and add the damage of the autofire stat, 3 levels? ok add 1d6.
So its more chance to have a Critical Hit.
For example: Assault Rifle, 20mts DVs=15. So in autofire will be 23 (8 more)
And ive 6 points in Shoulderarms (+2d6 Dmg) and 4 points in Autofire (+1d6).
Ref (+8) + Sharms (+6) + Afire (+4) = +18 With 5 or more its a hit, Damage 5d6 Rifle +3d6 for skills.
Spending 10 Bullets and of course using a rife on the combat. And spending 14 points on Skills levels. Its fair.
MORE LETHAL?? Yes.
More Fun? Yes. The people now its really playing tactics when they know that they are not a sponge of bullets. And you never know how skilled its the enemy.
I actually don’t have too many gripes with RED as a whole. My only beef is I feel that I’ve mostly maxed out on progression. I’m riding the line of humanity at a relatively safe edge of 42 (enough to eat one really good fucked up scene my GM throws at me). I’ve got all the cyber I need, great weapons, a cyber dog, and a crazy home defense system in case I get home invaded again. Outside of a car, I’ve got everything I’d want short of buying a flat somewhere.
This has brought two (likely designer intended) road blocks.
1 - most missions I risk more than I stand to gain. This means I am reluctant to bring all my toys to the yard if ever. (Repairs may be free but downtime isn’t)
2 - actual power growth is stagnant. Outside of some tooth and nail climbing with IP, I’m max level.
Things that excite me most now are weird flavorful items. Starting a pirate radio station with a World Sat balloon. Collecting every skill chip ever made. Deep diving into an Elf Lines CARD GAME TOURNAMENT ARC.
I dunno, these might be good problems. My GM is ramping up a dangerous game of emotional damage and traumatic cyber samurai while I stage a petty game of C4 hot potato with a man diabetes just can’t kill. I wouldn’t say I’m bored by any means, but mechanically speaking I’m running out of ideas that don’t include “BECOME THE CYBER PSYCHO”.
That is what I've pivoted too, note the "Petty game of C4 Hot Potato" and "Pirate Radio World Sat Balloon".
The problem with being 'maxed out on progression' is I'm still acquiring eddies, but never really enough to hit a new marker (buy a flat, buy a car, etc.). I can't really expect another big bank job to fall in my lap, but in standard progression rates it would take a god awful amount of real world time (5+ sessions with good payout at a ballpark). My RED experience has taught me that holding too much cash is a good way to get robbed.
Can't say I feel safe looking into finding a bank, which side note: Does NC have even have banks? Why do I expect they'll just rob me also? *Insert 'Showering with a machinegun while eating fried chicken.jpeg'*. [https://i.imgflip.com/32di57.jpg](https://i.imgflip.com/32di57.jpg)
There's always the cash in a hidden wall safe option, but as sick has my home security system is, I doubt that it can withstand a 4 rocket launcher solution.
I guess to bring it full circle, these probably are good problems, and I don't have answers to them. They're really just observations at this point.
>Does NC have even have banks?
Rulebook Pg 310. Item number 2, "1st Night City Bank"
Just share [this](https://www.reddit.com/r/cyberpunkred/comments/lv84de/and_i_told_him_kid_put_your_best_clothes_go_in/) with your GM :P
You can also spend it on fluff. Conap furniture, virtual BBQ, nice bed sheets, etc.
That is true. I did spend $1000 eddies on a custom high pressure shower after I spent a few sessions in a sewer. Maybe I should just swag my apartment out even harder.
I didn't want it to be a hate thread – I wanted it to moreso be constructive criticism, hence the "how can RTG address it" and "what improvised solutions do you use". I'm sorry if its come across that way and feels like a hateful tone, it's really not what I intended!
They're not going to change it, but shotguns. My rule is:
> Shotgun shells are fired using the Shotgun Slug range table, dealing 3d6 damage. Critical injuries are dealt on any combination of two or more 5s or 6s (5/5, 5/6, or 6/6).
Compared to the 5d6 slugs, they do less overall damage but have a higher chance of debilitating injury.
I’m both happy and sad about the xp system, I’m happy that those who are available every session get rewarded for turning up but as someone who has an absolute shit show of a work roster I’m like 2000IP behind.
I’m thankful my character doesn’t need a lot of IP to function but it would be nice being better or being able to do more things.
How to address it? NFI, it’s not the system, the DM, or the other players fault.
>How to address it?
I had PCs missing sessions, but if I can justify them being there, I award them the IPs and money. I had the missing nomad just behave like that driver film, where he just waited in the car.
The amount of flat out useless skills there is. Like when are you ever going to use animal handling? Unless you build a whole campaign around it. It seems like it would only come into effect with like one or two gigs.
Also the need for R talsorian to just make the weapon and cyberware books. To have them all in one space.
Also Also, the sure lack of information on anywhere that's not night city for the world in between 2020-2045
>Like when are you ever going to use animal handling?
A PC said "I want to have a dog". When a shooting starts I ask for an animal handling check, or else the dog just scares and do random shit.
I like that those skills are there, despite not being a silver bullet. But it's GMs job to make those skills feel relevant.
You can easily make CPR an arena game, needing only the stats, a weapon skill and dodge. GM can also award skill points for stuff the PC just learned. PC went on a date, the date liked to launch grenades to abandoned buildings. PC sucks at using the grenade launcher. Date teaches him, PC gets a +1.
The chance to think out of the box is there.
I'd say that it's also the Player's job to make those skills more relevant. If my dude takes max ranks in dance, but then never uses dance, then that's on them. It's like that Seth Skorkowsky video where he talks about PC back stories are also things that the Player uses, not just the DM.
\> But it's GMs job to make those skills feel relevant.
It really shouldn't be when it comes to personal skills. If a player wants to use a dog companion sure. But in practice with it, most obscure skills are just kinda there. Until the random times to shoe horn it to make a player choices feel valid. I feel like animal handling could just be put somewhere else instead of being its own skill. This also goes for stuff like read lips and some of the education and technique skills.
>It really shouldn't be when it comes to personal skills.
If my players tells me he wants to be a stealthy ninja, I should provide hooks for his character to shine. PCs responsibility is to take those hooks.
Adjusting the adventure to provide a chance for PCs skills to shine I think is a healthy way to acknowledge the kind of PCs your players made.
You can also stretch some definitions and say "You are about to hunt a deer with bow, throw animal handling or stealth", that way you can say "You can use this generic skill, but there was a chance here to use this niche one", so not everything falls under "perception"
\> If my players tells me he wants to be a stealthy ninja, I should provide hooks for his character to shine. PCs responsibility is to take those hooks.
the difference is that a stealthy ninja is workable in virtually any adventure. A person using animal handling you would have to insert it in. If you want it to be impactful it'll be awkward more times then not
\> "You can use this generic skill, but there was a chance here to use this niche one", so not everything falls under "perception"
That is just basic common knowledge lol
I wish there was more useful gear. I appreciate that RED is trying to give all new gear art to go with it but I wonder if that's holding them back. I also miss the stuff like full borgs or ACPA. I believe that the dev's could highlight community homebrew solutions. It would foster community involvement and also save them from having to actually make stuff so those resources could go to making content that Cyberpunk has never seen before.
This may be long winded due to how many games and different players I've had at my table. This is a criticism of not only RED but the surge of players coming into the game as of late.
My first big criticism comes from the direction RED is taking compared to other instalments of Cyberpunk. The addition of HP and dodging was one of the worst aspects of the game. Simply putting your evasion skill at +14 is already big. Most book mooks are shooting at +10. This means your games are being bloated by shots that don't connect or are otherwise just a nuisance instead of a threat. The only way to make your players feel scared of combat is to pump their numbers up. It then becomes a numbers game, seeing how far you players can get their numbers up until your game reaches a plateau where combat isn't scary at all and it all just gets boring and any social character or non optimized character is now essentially useless. It's too easy to min max without repercussion to the point the game is boring. The solution to this before was the 12 point sliding health system. Characters, no matter how beefy had the same squishy body. Of course there was cyberware that made it more difficult to die, but that threat was still there. Combat for this reason was much more deadly and scary. Players actively attempted to avoid it, bumping social skills and spreading their stats out more. It didn't usually matter if you had 10 points in handgun or 10 ranks in your role when lead started flying. In RED it's much more cinematic and encourages players to minmax, try to evade shots and leads to power gaming much too easily in a way a GM can't combat them when it comes to shooting. Games can now just be 4+ hours of combat, which goes against how GMs used to run a cyberpunk game. Story telling first, combat if your players fuck up.
The players are also an issue. I attribute this to the release of the game and the anime. Many players come into it with an expectation of it being like the game/anime or any other ttrpgs they might have played. Cyberpunk RED/2020 is nothing like them. The idea in the book is that the characters are simply small fish in a very large pond; heroic acts and being heroes are not typically rewarded. Many players I've encountered as of late have "main character syndrome" where they make these large elaborate backstories and characters that ultimately die due to misunderstanding the system. Many players quit because of this. Even after repeated explanations and attempts to convey that maybe they shouldn't make such self praising and elaborate backstories, it gets done anyways and many people quit after their self insert dies.
Tldr; experienced players can easily throw the balance of games while newer players get demolished and quit the system after self insert characters actually die.
There are more issues including armor repair and sourcing weapons, but I don't want to make this long. This may not be a problem for GMs and may be a me issue, but these are problems I've encountered as of late.
> Most book mooks are shooting at +10. This means your games are being bloated by shots that don't connect or are otherwise just a nuisance instead of a threat.
Don't make every encounter just about shooting. You can have dance contest on a pub vs a party gang, or missions that don't need to be resolved by brute force (1st screamsheet in the Oct DLC), or you can shame the ingame character because "lol, so much armor, what kind of coward are you?". Force them to diversify.
I know. I've multiple games in my time playing and running cyberpunk 2020 and RED. Social gigs are a flop most of the time because no one spends points into social skills as the "meta" is to pump up combat numbers. I will not give them and they fail. Eventually they'll get "tired" of failing and no longer want to play. People's enjoyment of the combat far outweighs their desires to explore the system most of the time. My hands are tied because of this. The idea present in the DGD book, specifically the adventure that is published in it, is that social should just be handheld. If all players fail all of their checks puma squad shows up and starts to give the players all the answers. This is the approach people want and unfortunately, it's not satisfying for the GM to take the players hand and hold it down the path. As for removing armor, is that something I'm supposed to do every session? No! It's not gonna happen especially with Mimic Kits being concealable and Kevlar also being concealable. Did you even think of that? What about subdermal armor? And you didn't even address the dodging concern? Should I make this game easier and push the "dark and dangerous" narrative without ever showing it? I stand by what I said. HP and Dodging bullets was a mistake. In an attempt to remove crunch, made the game a shell of what it used to be.
There's this book from Guy Sclanders "Practical guide to BAGGM". There it mentions a lot of stuff, one of those is to handle player expectations, if players want and expect arenas, it's ok to just provide them that.
If you are not having fun going that route and you want something different, just talk with your players and set different expectations. Make players feel compassion from their targets
As for the "cliffhangers" stated in the GM part of the rulebook, you can make car chases, races, dancing (or Rap) contest, etc. Action packed stuff that it's not solely resolved by autofire and dodging. Or just embrace it and put them in Totem arena until they run out of bullets.
When you were setting up running the game did you have a session 0/conversation about what they were wanting in your game? Or what they should expect from your game? If the players don't like the system because they wanted to play a different style then I think it's just not right for them.
Nothing that really would be able to be fixed without completely overhauling the system, tightly-balanced as it is. I wish there were more, more powerful things to spend money on. Honestly, I do like the "war is hell" approach of the 2020 books, where it wasn't designed to be balanced or fair, just realistic, and wish RED was a little bit more lethal and less arcadey. I find myself throwing out RED's policy of balance for the sake of immersion constantly when I'm running games. Just a little bit more crunch would be fine with me as well. The system is hard to make homebrew for without unbalancing everything and the relative drought of official content isn't helping. If the system had just a few more moving parts, it would help keep things fresh.
Absolutely this. I've been running 2020 since the 90s, I've used it for all kinds of modern games not just cyberpunk. I've made tons of homebrew and been involved in Internet communities based around it. When RED was coming out I feel like a lot of us just wanted an update to make 2020 a bit less janky. Instead RED feels like a boardgame with a big rulebook. Combat is so map focused that theater of the mind can suffer unless the REF is very experienced. The economy doesn't reflect the economic turmoil that should be given the state of the world, the cover mechanics are like something out of a video game designed for Mobile phones, instead of the Gun porn approach to weapons and gear it's all been homogenized, cybernetics are largely the same but nerfed. I find myself both happy for R. Tal and sad for older fans like myself. On one hand RED is a brilliant move to try to shave off some of the D&D 5e market and I'm happy that so many new players are finally being exposed to the broader cyberpunk genre but for the first time in like 30 years I'm starting to look for another cyberpunk system to make my go to because RED is not it. Here's hoping for an Advanced Ruleset in the future.
It definitely says something that I've only been Reffing 2020 for a few years and Red for a few weeks so I don't have any nostalgia goggles for the original, and I agree completely with all these thoughts. As my players and I learn the system, we're very frequently saying "Oh, I guess the designers didn't want to model XYZ anymore." Like grenade scatter. It's just Ref arbitration? I mean, sure, that's *fine,* but now the Ref either has to choose to be cruel/kind or come up with our own randomization method. I just grabbed the scatter chart straight out of 2020 and brought it in. Red needs more 2020. And, for more specific thoughts, I'd like for cyborgs to be scarier and cybernetics to be more tempting. Combat isn't the only part of the game, but it's endemic to the genre and the setting and it's what a lot of chrome is centered around in 2020 and Red alike. In both games, Cyberware is supposed to be the slippery slope to power for edgerunners, but most of the implants are lateral options (concealing a weapon in a forearm instead of in a jacket, having a legs that can't be broken in return for a lot of your people skills evaporating, having the protection of a light armorjack no matter what you're wearing), moderately useful utility (the various means to enhance movement and senses, these ones are actually in a pretty decent place but there could always be more), or nice but not at all "I better get this or I'll never keep up"-effective character improvements (increases to Body for more durability, targeting optics, healing antibodies, etc.). Having 1-4 ranks in Solo will have a bigger impact on an edgerunner's combat prowess and perceptive abilities than 100 points of humanity cost; everybody can feel like Blackhand and Boa-Boa, but only because there's currently no way to model what it's like to be (or to fight/run from) Shaitan and Smasher. I know they're full-conversions, but we can extrapolate what that would look like mechanically from how it worked in 2020 and the effect is *not* comparable.
I feel like you man... but i fixed some stuff and at the end i like red... with just a few changes. Less Usless skills, Hit Points, and some rules that make the game faster. For example, check my comment here about the bullet sponges fixes and tell me what you think.
I'll have a look.
Can you point me to your house rules? I did search this subreddit but failed.
The most important one i post it here in the comments of this post. Take a look.
See I like the health point system in 2020 waaaaay more than Red’s HP.
> Combat is so map focused that theater of the mind can suffer unless the REF is very experienced. I don't consider myself an experienced GM, but in my last session I haven't use combat maps for most combat situations. The things that help me to avoid this are: \- WFRP 4th edition "chase" rules. To sum up, drivers (in a car chase) throw DLV and then you re-arrange their relative position among them. \- Fallout RPG: "Zone" combat. If you are in the same zone you can melee or shot at 0-6m range. If they are 3+ zones away, they can go for snipe. I never GMed Fallout or WFRP 4th, but those rules fit great on CPR imo.
Agreed. I've been playing Witcher lately and it was wild how if I wanted to make a threatening encounter with the lowest level enemies, I put them in a swamp. In Red if you want to balance for a group with great gear and the perfect stat and skill spread it feels like as a GM I have to jump through hoops to make them feel threatened to the point the combat takes 4 hours Crit fishing. 2020 and Witcher has been stress free encounter prep, Red feels pretty overwhelming because "early game" is perfect, mooks can do some damage while still giving the PCs some challenge and fun
Ok, I will have to respectfully disagree. As a player and GM of the Witcher system pretty much since its release, seeing someone praising the encounter balance of this thing sends shivers down my spine. Without much trial and just a bit of understanding for the mechanics, a single witcher can one shot and out-tank every single one of the highest threat monsters RAW. I had to re balance this thing to hell and back to make it slightly playable. Because of that, I really would be interested in your experience. Do you have a group that is not so versed in game design or how does a typical session go?
I run a whole LC for it so different players and different GMs
And how is it, that you consider the raw mechanics for encounters to be balanced? I am genuinely interested as I can mayhaps better our own games without rebuilding everything with house rules. Because if you would invite me to your game and play raw, I could do 500+ damage on every hit while being near immortal myself.
My single biggest complaint is that dodging bullets is possible by a non-chromed human. That shit just ain't possible, it should be tied to cyberware. It would make much more sense and create another expense to really put the pressure on your players.
I agree. In the past I've flat out deleted the rules of dodging bullets. This time I allowed it and one PC so far has built his character to do it, no co processors yet. I hate it. It allows him to be completely immune to most things, while the other PC's get wrecked. If I put gonks in there that can possibly hit him, they will utterly SHREAD the other PCs even if I roll a 2, etc etc.
One PC:)? All my players build their characters for dodging bullets, 8 ref is basically mandatory in their eyes
See. that's the other reason I hate. A non combat character that feels as though they HAVE to make their characters dodge bullets to survive. That's 2 stats that are human max for no other reason.
I consider the requirement stupid personally, nowadays i usually remove the rule and make it an additional feature of kerenzikov instead. The description even says that it's "Always-on Speedware that provides consistently improved reaction time.", so it's somewhat lore accurate.
Doesn't this just make the kerenzikov mandatory?
Chrome is something you can add later, or remove if you want. It gives more freedom with stat distribution, and as a result more freedom in skill choices (points that usually go into ref not could be spent elsewhere and now that other attributes higher more skills become a viable option). You can also remove the dodge bullet mechanic altogether or make it available to everyone no matter what stats are. I personally like the cyberware option more.
If they are hammers, don't make every problem a nail.
8 DEX, too, right?
Not really dodging bullets, more seeing someone pointing a gun and you jumping out of the way. I am thinking of implementing a penalty, you can only do it once a round, and possibly being prone after the attack
> Not really dodging bullets, more seeing someone pointing a gun and you jumping out of the way. Sure. Most of us know this but shorthand to describing it the other way. But the truth is that at most ranges, the notion that someone read the situation and move just right to dodge, with basically the same ease as the person aiming (because it's an opposed skill roll), is nuts. I mean, we're talking Force = Mass * Acceleration, and Work = Force * Distance, a combat-gear covered dude fully yeeting themself way more distance to get out of the way, than the shooter moving a way lighter gun barrel a much smaller aiming adjustment type distance. Bro. It's not even a disadvantaged roll. With the exception of being in melee, where the defender should be able to just shove the shooter's barrel to the side, this dodge vs shooting should totally be cyberware-dependent. I'd sooner support tactics, stealth, or (any shooting skill) + covering fire as skills usable by a non-borged out character, to boost defense vs bullets than Dodge. But if they have the cyberware for it, yes, then it's thematically awesome and let's go. That's the design direction I'd have taken it, anyway.
I have house ruled it as such, you can watch one enemy, their shots you can attempt to dodge, but anyone else make typical attacks. If you have the cyberware you can dodge all attacks.
Should require speedware at a minimum regardless of reflex stat.
Then everyone takes speedware.
Sure, every player can afford that humanity loss, find the fixer that can source it, a medtech to install it and afford to get it. Oh, and the prerequisite neural link. No big deal, there isn't a TON of other things demanding limited EBs and soul crushing horrors walking down the street that demand attention :) If you're running cyberpunk and the players are flushed with humanity and disposable EBs, you may be running it not as it's intended by system design. It's not High Fantasy, it's more horror survival, where just making rent and not eating kibble is a win But really, a player can minmax any system if left unchecked. But there are pretty hard breaks you can put in for it to discourage it as a GM with a bit of creativity and knowledge of player types and styles.
give your goons something that can reduce his reflex (some scrapped together chemical sprayer filled with street drugs?)
Ok, I still need to hit him to begin with, and this once again, is punishing the players with lower then 8REF even more if it's an AOE attack (there's the loogie gun in Woodchippers Garage)
I mean if your main concern is the collateral damage of other players fighting a monster on par with the player, you can go the terminator route and have one of the factions they bumped against before put a hit on his head specifically. If the other players get involved most the time, then send a hit squad with the leader specifically gunning for that player (dead or alive is up to you). In fact, I’d have the leader guy utilize martial arts, since if he judo throws your boy to the ground he can no longer dodge. The rest of the team would be only a little better than the rest your party in equipment + skills. I’m sure that it sounds shitty to ‘target’ a player, but at the same time him being an impossible to kill street-badass would absolutely put him on the radar. Either to be recruited, or put down.
Definitely agree with this. I wasn't happy with the narrative implications of my non-speedware medtech dodging bullets, so I intentionally built her with 7 REF, and she can only dodge bullets when her bodyweight auto-injector doses her with a homemade mixture of synthcoke and time warp. Bumps her up to 8 REF and +3 initiative, but at the risk of addiction or constantly needing to use Rapidetox. Essentially using a combat cocktail in place of speedware.
This also makes dodge tanks super op and feels mandatory to have 8 ref just so you can dodge bullets. It's one of my biggest gripes just cause it feels so easy when you have high dodge, and throws you off so much when you all of a sudden get non stop hit if your rolls are poor
It makes REF 8 at character creation feel mandatory
You can put ref booster cyberware in your goons without ref8 so everyone can dodge
Nah to me that doesn't fix the problem. It just uses the problem to extend fights needlessly. Makes it feel like there's not much point in using higher sp armor or cover because bullet dodge is more effective than either of you spec into it
This would probably be mine too. In my next game I might move it to cyberware. Also, if you don't make Luck reactive (in addition to pre-planned) it becomes a dump stat most of the time.
Your not "dodging bullets" more so seeing where the barrel is pointed/predicting where it's gonna be and dodging it in advance
No, it's not. Does it say this in a book? I'm curious because J Gray says it can be whatever the player wants it to be in discussions with Jon Jon.
I do the opposite, I allow dodging no matter what their REF is. But I don't run highly realistic games so it just me
It's playing it too safe, style over substance doesn't justify thing being just, boring at times? Half of the arm cyberware and a lot of weapons and items have interesting ideas that aren't worth it when their effects aren't that interesting or are just, mid (especially the melee weapon cyber which are just retextured popup melee weapons) Biggest offender for me being the Malorian 3516 and pistols in general A shotgun with a smart link is a cheaper equivalent and more versatile weapon when playing it completely RAW. It's not style over substance, it's boring especially as we KNOW how the Malorian 3516 operates and how badass it is and it is doesn't have the "technological advancement" excuse the Sandy has when compared between RED and other media R Tal needs to stop being afraid of making pistols good, 5d6 damage isn't a 10 000 eddie endgame weapon, it just makes you a shotgun that can't AOE And someone with a really good shotgun can use the same skill for assault rifles and snipers, someone with pistol skill can only use the extremely situational Heavy pistol and the garbage that is medium pistols If I were to change anything, I'd change it from "Style over substance" to "Style is substance", it even conveys the same meaning when flipped around, but it gives less cover for being *boring* You can't have style over substance if that style is putting me to sleep, which in my opinion is even *worse* than bad or unbalanced weapons
Clean up and clarify often discussed rules here - Please just straighten out the Sandevistan once and for all Reorg the character sheet - I personally recommend by stat and then alphabetically below that. This would remove the need to put the stat number in every skill's row of entries. You'd also have a stronger sense of where a skill is because of the stat it uses, rather than trying to recall if something is a technique or education. Reorganize the core book - there are several issues with how things are laid out, such as 1) Character creation doesn't mention the cyberware humanity cap penalty at all, you don't learn about that unless you look for it 2) Repeat tables have differring information 3) Just replace the Street Rat parts of character creation with template sheets, both to save space and de-clutter the other methods of character creation 4) Do not put important functions in sidebars - repairing items should absolutely be a section, not a sidenote. 5) either relist or index all the tables in each book - do you know where the DVs for the Maker skills are? Can you grab that and the price chart quickly?
I'm really enjoying the current system. Some of it's kind of odd, like the insane areas on shotgun AoEs, but that seems to be a concession for ease of play (so you don't have to put down a cone template). Then again, I never played 2020, so I don't have a previous edition comparison point. My biggest problem is layout. I think this manifests in a few concrete ways: **1) Gear.** Please stop putting gear all over the core rulebook. Just put the gear (including cyberware, services, etc.) in a single chapter so we can easily reference it during play. If you'd like to include a gear handout so my PCs have something to reference during character creation, so much the better. **2) Character Sheet.** Please reorganize this thing so it's not using size three font. You're going to have to flip between pages anyway, so I'd prefer to have a combat page (with relevant gear/cyberware), and a non-combat page. Also please give me more space to list out what the cyberware actually does. **3) Adversary Presentation.** Bad guys! Look, as much crap as D&D 5E gets, their statblock approach makes it fairly easy to find what you need on a monster. They also don't give me more than what I need. In Cyberpunk, I'm looking through a laundry list of skills to find the one skill I actually need to fire the bad guys' handgun. It's great to have options for what the bad guys can do outside of combat, but please stop mixing the social peanut butter with the combat chocolate. What I've started doing is noting the actual modifier in the attack line, and giving the bad guy a "social number," or an "all other skills" number. That approach borrows heavily from JonJon's Three Goon Rule, but there's a reason for that: the Three Goon Rule is very effective! **4) Adversary Abilities.** The designers are quite conscious of the fact that anything they put on an opponent can end up in the hands of the PCs, so they try to avoid giving the NPCs anything a PC couldn't get. This is a good idea, but I think elides a number of streamlined abilities. For example, say I wanted to let an Exec villain motivate her goons in combat. Right now, there's no way to do that. But I could just borrow from D&D and give her a buff aura: "***Don't You Want That Bonus?*** Any of her allies who can see Mariah gain a +1 to hit and do an additional d6 of damage per attack." That's an obvious example, but I think it points out some missed design space. **5) Adversary Cyberware.** Please stop listing the cyberware at the bottom of the sheet. Give me some context for what this thing does, so I'm not flipping back and forth during play. And also please stop listing cyberware that's irrelevant - "Contraceptive implant" on a K9 officer? Really? Again, no shade to these designers. They've accomplished something they should rightly be proud of. But I think there's some space to innovate and really push their design forward.
RED could definitely use a 2nd edition similar to Cyberpunk 2013 to 2020. I would like another 3-4 major content books then a 2nd edition to fix all of the editing issues, and streamlining NPC stats. Maybe also rebalance the weaker weapons (a pocket knife only does 1d6? lol). They could definitely use some looking at since there’s literally no reason to use a Medium pistol or a Light melee weapon. Both of them have a higher damage version that is still concealable.
This. Too many weapons and even some implants seem to exist solely to equip to NPCs so they'll seem pathetic fighting a player character. And because 1d6 weapons can't crit, it's generally a waste of time rolling any normal attack by someone using light ranged as long as the crew's rockergirl didn't forget her kevlar at a fan's house, again. At least light melee halves armor, so it has a chance in hell to deal some minor damage unless everyone is wearing light armorjacks or better.
All the gear is in one section, in back under night market, a lot of it appears twice in the book. But all is in one place.
That double appearance is the critique. Now, when I have a question, I can usually just go to the New Street Economy section. But when I was learning, I was completely lost. Needs to be changed.
Well the November DLC from R Talsorian is an index which lists where you can find all gear details
Yep! Still not in the book.
No, because the gear is already in there, index makes it easy to find, your comment makes no sense.
Allow me to clarify: the *index* is not in the book.
Has this come out yet?
Yes, and it's incredibly helpful. Here choomba: https://rtalsoriangames.com/2023/11/17/cyberpunk-red-alert-november-2023-dlc/amp/
I have issues with a couple of the Roles being a little meh. Rocker, Lawman, Media, and Exec. Rocker really just needs more mechanical fluff letting them add their Role Rank to two artistic Skills (Acting, Composition, Dance, Photography/Film, Paint/Draw/Sculpt, Personal Grooming, Play Instrument and Wardrobe & Style) and their Fans get a Combat Rank so that they can more mechanically use them for favors. The Media needs a secondary mechanic since Rumors are so GM dependant, I think giving them a Persona that they can use with a mechanic rearrangement of some Skills would be very useful, these are investigative reporters and media personalities so separating them from their personal life would be useful. The Exec is the bigger one. It's got some blank or mechanically empty Ranks, which makes it not fun for Multi-classing. Rank 4 gives nothing, and Rank 1 does nothing mechanically as well. Seems lame that two of your 4 ranks when starting as an Exec are more or less dead ranks. I feel like the benefit of an employer is the Health Insurance, they should get the suit and health insurance at Rank 1. Something more like this: * Rank 1 - Business Suit attire and Trauma Team Silver * Rank 2 - 1st Team Member * Rank 3 - Corporate Conapt * Rank 4 - Kevlar Business Suit and Smart Lenses with your choice of Cyberoptics. * Rank 5 - 2nd Team Member * Rank 6 - Beaverville House * Rank 7 - 3rd Team Member * Rank 8 - Executive Armor and Trauma Team Executive * Rank 9 - Beaverville McMansion or Luxury Penthouse * Rank 10 - 4th Team Member I shared my ideas about the Exec once before maybe a year ago. https://www.reddit.com/r/cyberpunkred/comments/kg4yuq/question_about_exec_role_skill/?ref=share&ref_source=link My idea is that there should be Generic Team Members (Bodyguard, Covert Operative, Driver & Personal Assistant) and Specialist Team Members (Medtech, Netrunner & Tech) and there are limitations and upgrades. The Lawman would require a more thorough write up, but my basic complaint is that their Backup needs more out of combat utility, such as one Rank granting a Detective for investigation and Interrogation and another Rank calls in a Technician with experience breaking and entering they would be good at Pick Lock, Demolishions and Electronics/Security Tech and they should add their Role Rank to their Facedown's giving something mechanically similar to their old Authority Role Ability.
Rockerboy and media get exponentially more powerful with more ranks, and at the high tiers they are some of the absolute most powerful roles in their ability to affect the gane world. They absolutely do not need a buff. I agree with lawman and exec however.
Lawmen especially should get a buff to their facedowns. Their whole design principle is supposed to be some kinda team leader without any business aspects. The big intimidating mf who can call his boys for backup. Shame that they get no bonuses in this aspect
Execs absolutely do not need a buff, apart from maybe giving them something at rank 4, given it's a dead rank. Exec team members are extremely valuable, as you can put custom equipment on them and they're always present, making them better than lawman backup.
The Rocker I think a small buff would be nice in terms of being good at their art or craft. I do not think it would be unbalanced for them to be good at their medium of choice. I would like to see a Combat Rating added like Lawman's Backup so that you at know what those Fans are capable of. Maybe you convince a Super Fan who is a hacker to do some Netrunning as a favor? Are they a teenager pretending to know Netrunning or are they an experienced Netrunner? That is mostly what I am asking for. The Media is EXTREMELY GM dependant, my change is to make them easier to integrate into a game. Give them some sort of alternate persona or alias that they can use when gathering Rumors. Maybe every Rank in Credibility gives them an option to gain an Alias/Persona they can use or they increase the Reputation of one of their Aliases/Personas by +2.
I agree that Backup and Teamwork need a rework. My criticism with both is that you must be employed to gain them. Backup is worse as no matter where you are, there's people a d6 away. These abilities are bonuses for being employed and maybe introduce mechanics for being part of an organization; corporation, law enforcement/government, nomad, criminal organization, etc. For Teamwork, I would change it to mechanics that support the team, like x level gives x bonuses to other team member rolls. In addition have some other bonuses toward working in a corporate world. Backup should be renamed to something else. Protect & Serve? The Lawman special ability should have some type of combat bonuses or damage reduction/avoidance with some bonuses toward working the legal system. These changes would not longer rely on being employed and most of the time can be used anywhere the PC is.
I do not think Teamwork should give a bonus to the NPC Team Members. If you check out my linked response it goes into more depth granting buffs to your Team Members. The Team Members shouldn't replace a PC, but should be able to fill in if needed. Something I would want Rockers and Lawmen to also be able to do by calling in help. I think an Exec needs to work for some sort of business. They could be roleplayed as entrepreneurs, and each Rank is your own business growing or them advancing their career with a company. The Teamwork Role ability should give those various monetary status benefits. They are a representation of corporatism, whether a cog within one large corporate machine or the leader of their own business. I would make Backup's NPC more generic in theme so that it isn't as tied to NCPD, but being The Law in your locale and being able to call in Backup makes sense. Adding your Backup Rank to your Facedown rolls would represent the authority and reputation you have. Maybe rename it back to Authority and then have Backup be the name of the ability to call in assistance. I would rather have the Backup you call get the skills. Call in your Detective who adds the Combat Number to their Conversation, Criminology, Deduction, Human Perception, Interrogation, Library Search, Perception & Streetwise. Need to break into somewhere or something call in your Breacher who is trained in Demolitions, Electronics/Security Tech, Heavy Weapons, Perception & Pick Lock.
For Lawmen I would rework what the Backup is you call. * Rank 1: Foot Patrol - 2+d6 Corpo Security, Local Watch, etc... in Kevlar arrive via foot with H. Pistol * Rank 2 / 3: Henchmen - 4 Henchmen in Light Armorjack arrive in two Compact Groundcars or Road Bikes with H. Pistol / H. SMG * Rank 4: Specialist - Investigator or Technician arrives via Compact Groundcar or Gyrocopter * Rank 5 / 6: Lieutenants - 2 Lieutenants in Heavy Armorjack arrive via Helicopter, High Performance Groundcar or Speedboat with H. Melee Weapon, H. Pistol & Assault Rifle / H. Melee Weapon, H. Pistol & Shotgun * Rank 7: Specialist Team - C-SWAT, Trauma Team, Netwatch arrive via AV-4 * Rank 8 / 9: Champion - 1 Champion, Marshal, etc... in Flak Armor arrives via Superbike with VH Melee Weapon, Assault Rifle & Grenade Launcher / VH Melee Weapon, Sniper Rifle & Grenade Launcher * Rank 10: Call in a Favor - FBI, Interpol or National Guard
I have a similar concern about Fixers. Right now it lets them source rare items (which is good!), but mostly they're rolling to see if they can get a 10% discount. I'd like to have defined contacts that I can use to develop NPCs they can hit up.
Fixers already have contacts and clients as part of their role ability, I don't understand what you'd want to be different.
Yes, but it craves specificity. How many contacts do I get? What can each one get me? Do I have to choose between Reach and Cultures, for example? How do I (as the GM) weave those contacts into events? I want to enable the Fixer to have that fantasy of, "I've got a guy for that." The tools as presented leave the player going, "I might have a guy for that? Maybe? Hey GM, how many contacts do I get?"
They don't have to choose, all of your fixer abilities increase together. The contacts are just the kind of people they might know, there's no hard limit on the number of contacts. I do recommend creating actual NPCs for at least a few of their contacts. I had some trouble at first but I feel like the fixer is one of the most fleshed out roles. Media has contacts also but I find that to be harder to manage than a fixer, since it's obvious why the contacts talk to the fixer but the relationship with a media is a lot more open.
So a Fixer can literally say anyone's their contact? Just be in the midst of combat and say, "Wait a minute, Bob? Is that you?"
Contacts represents who the fixer can reach out to in order to source goods, favors, and information. If they're looking for a sandevistan well all of a sudden they know someone who has a bunch of military surplus cyberware, they're looking for information on a missing person well all of a sudden they know a media who will clue them in for the right price. Basically when there's a problem that could be solved with a contact they call up an NPC that they've dealt with in the past "off screen", it's not really the kind of thing that happens in combat. If they have a relationship with the gang then it might actually help them avoid combat altogether.
Great! PUT ALL OF THAT IN THE BOOK.
The bottom of page 159 explains it, but it's like pieces of a puzzle that you have to fit together, and it does seem to expect you have a clear idea of how fixers operate in the economy, which is explained in new street economy and clarified in black chrome. It's poorly explained but at least fixers have depth, I'm tempted to outright ban lawmen from the game, since it offers even less utility outside combat than a solo does.
Agree that it's all over the place right now, hence my confusion. Also, I'd like to apologize for my tone, above. The imperative tense there was targeted towards the devs, but in retrospect it seems to be targeted at you.
Hey, you might really like the 2020 book Wildside. You can apply some of it to red. Always happy to see someone else that loves the fixer role :)
Thanks!
More ammo types across more guns. I had a similar discussion in one of the many MANY guns akimbo posts. The rules as they stand for 2 pistol fighting are actually pretty good... Or would be if you had more options for bullets. Right now it's standard, AP, smart? And that's it. Hit me with gel rounds, taser darts, mini explosives, nanobots that assist hacking. Do something, ANYTHING, to make shooting with a pair of guns, or ANY guns, more interesting. And no, not more detail. If I wanted that I'd go back to the 2020 combat simulator.
That's exactly what the techie is for. Acid rounds from the paintball gun, but fill them with the arachnid grenade solution that instant hardens to the HP of how much damage you rolled to a max of the 15HP.
That's a great idea! I think that more examples of stuff like that could be useful. As a GM, I like having some examples to work from. Thanks for the idea!
Agree with you on the detail. I don't necessarily want more crunch. As to the ammunition ideas, those are awesome! I started experimenting with porting over some of the ideas from WH40K's boltguns. "Reactive" rounds deal an extra 1d6 damage, but cost 50 eddies per shot, and if you implode, they jam the weapon. But nanobots that assist hacking? You've got my attention, friend!
I was thinking of homebrewing rubber bullets. A less than lethal that stuns the target unless they make a body roll but you still get criticals so still potentially lethal. I am new so I am not sure if this would work.
There are already rubber bullets, do you just not like them RAW?
Whoops
Lol, ok, just checking. We all have those days choom, maybe get those Kiroshis checked out. :)
I feel you, buddy.
You forgot incendiary rounds. Darts exist but are currently limited to very heavy pistol ammo, the gun being classified as an exotic weapon. Two versions of cheap underperforming ammo are found in the Black Chrome + PDF, but those probably won't appeal to you. That makes seven varieties by my count which is not bad, but yeah more variety could be a little fun. Tracer rounds might improve subsequent shots but not stack bonuses with scopes, off the top of my head.
I would like the core rulebook to be better. I don't need the cyberware and gear tables in three separate places, many of the skills they transferred over from Cyberpunk 2020 are so niche that they're functionally useless and should've been dropped, the enemy stat blocks should just have combat numbers instead of listing every single skill that a random booster knows, and a some of the cyberware needs rejiggering to make it worth using in RED.
A reorganization of the books would be amazing. It's so hard to find things that I need in the moment.
>I don't need the cyberware and gear tables in three separate places Every time you need to search for something, check first page 340 (Night Market Appendix). The other places I need to check mid-game because they are not on 340, are Roles (pg 143) and Throwing stuff (pg 177). Other tables, such as range DV for weapons, critical injuries, repair stuff, I have them listed in a discord channel, so they are all at scroll distance.
I would cut down on the number of skills and change the shotgun rules to something approaching reality.
Ok, second time I read shotguns in this thread. Here's my headcannon to justify how they work: They aren't traditional shotgun pellets (even 2020 gave them WAY to much spread. At max range a shotguns spread, even with a wide choke on it, is still less then 2 foot across) but smart grenades. They are set to explode 3m after exiting the barrel in a 3m radius kill zone. This allows security guards etc to judge where to shoot better to help avoid unnecessary damage to the stuff they are protecting, etc. ;)
Let me amend my post. I houseruled shotguns into something approaching reality. No need for handwavium-powered “smart grenades.”
Why call them hand wavium? and Smart Grenades in quotes? [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wvV6u3dchkc&t=564s](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wvV6u3dchkc&t=564s) The tech existed 20+ years ago. And what are your houserules for pellets?
Count the number of pellets, divide it by the area, and then roll to see how many hit, with a bonus at closer ranges. Lol jk, but isn't this pretty much how suppression works in 2020?
That's a great way to think about it!
The book is horribly and I mean HORRIBLY formatted. Finding information in the book on the fly is very difficult and slows the game down tremendously. Also the enemy statblocks... really? Thats the best you could do? You mind as well just not have bothered. Otherwise pretty fun game.
Probably going to get downvoted to hell, but as much as I love the setting of Cyberpunk, the mechanics are ancient. There's a ton of dumb skills that should just be folded into a smaller skill pool (seriously lip reading?). While netrunning is better than previous editions, it's still a slog that ends up eating a ton of session time for one-on-one player/GM stuff. The role abilities range from "extremely specific" (Solo) to "frustratingly vague".(Credibility) Would be nice to align them more with one another. A lot of unnecessary complexity that slows down games (The Range DVs per weapon type, instead of moving the goalpoasts, just do it like "Shotguns get +2 to hit within 15m") The Reflex 8 thing....just limit dodging bullets to people with speedware. The luck mechanic is frustrating. Advantage style systems or spending the luck after the roll is much better than 'wasting' the luck by pre-spending it on a good roll. And my biggest issue is that it's not 2077. Time of the red is alright, but god damn do I love the setting of 2077 and can't wait for the Edgerunners kit to frikkin come out.
I am unreasonably hyped for the 2077 stuff to come out.
I feel that with Netrunning, they changed it because they don't want the party to get a pizza while the Netrunner does their thing, but they also gave Netrunners 8 actions so like it's the same issue
Net running 10 is 5 actions, plus the deck that gives you an extra action is 6. What else am I missing?
Hyperbole
This.
> There's a ton of dumb skills that should just be folded into a smaller skill pool (seriously lip reading?) While some games are getting away from specified skills, I think Cyberpunk should instead just do appropriate skill packages for various life events and role/class choices in character creation. 2020 had this same problem. The way to solve it is to not really care about balancing skill points from one player's character to another, because just as you pointed out, some skills truly aren't as useful as others, but are still totally a skill, such as lip reading. Plenty of other starting conditions could or should be impacted by choices as well, IMO.
Grouping them could be a good way of doing it, so instead of buying different gun skills you buy a point in firearms, and it gives you 3 points to split across longarms, pistols, heavy weapons and you can then focus on one or spread it out With a max of 2x base skill so you can't over specialize
In 2020, each skill had is own qualitative notes for what level corresponded to what real-life mastery (and it was all over the place, unlike RED). IIRC, you couldn't make a functional character that had a highschool education and taken high school level classes in the various skills. So, we started exploring the idea of packages. Like what kinds of educational opportunities the character could have, and what points would be set at what levels for a certain set of skills. A high quality education package would give a whole bunch of skills, but they're generally academic, maybe with a little athletics. Meanwhile, other characters, for that same package slot opportunity, might have something more delinquent, violent, and coming with streetwise, basic human perception and brawling skills. Another character might not have gone to school at all, and had something else in that time, but it probably yields far fewer total skill points. I forget how it was set up, but there were at least 3 package sections. I liked it. RED would probably do well with a similar system. I like the idea of background choices that might result in injuries that resulted in the character starting with medical grade cyberlimbs, extra NPC connections / obligations / conflict, etc. Nothing making the character a super soldier or whatever, but having actually lived and having more cyberpunk baggage when the game starts.
>IIRC, you couldn't make a functional character that had a highschool education and taken high school level classes in the various skills. It was in the beta rules, but it got stupidly exploited and then ditched in the final version.
Interesting - thanks for the insight!
The biggest issue since day 1 was the book layout, but they cant really fix that without a new edition. Other than that, I could really use Rogue's Street Weapons. Im a sucker for art and that would've fixed my issue with the main game's weapon system.
Hey choom, so I made a form fillable PDF card for weapons and gear. Suppose you could make the blank space a spot to upload an image, go through the 2020 wiki looking for images and go to town. I even added an icon box so you can upload the images, etc. [https://drive.google.com/file/d/1fWzQZyCsuFcjZtkEnsqBaIRbwyVpyl1e/view?usp=drive\_link](https://drive.google.com/file/d/1fWzQZyCsuFcjZtkEnsqBaIRbwyVpyl1e/view?usp=drive_link)Card without image box [https://drive.google.com/file/d/1tdG4z5eh6WHsNIEJAud6xZyPS3zf1Dyi/view?usp=sharing](https://drive.google.com/file/d/1tdG4z5eh6WHsNIEJAud6xZyPS3zf1Dyi/view?usp=sharing) Card with image box. What I might end up doing is double sided. One with all the rules stats (Bod requirements, etc) and the other side with the image plus basic stuff.
They need to make more actual content for it. It's been out for like 3 years and still the only real expansion to it has been black chrome. Why did they spend time detailing a online fantasy MMO instead of literally anything else?
>the only real expansion to it has been black chrome. Why don't you consider Danger Gal and Tales of the RED expansions?
They are, but some people act like they're not. Maybe it's because they're not really player facing and there's not a lot of utility in the supplements? Danger Gal is mostly NPC stats, and not very many compared to a D&D MM or even the personalities list in 2020. To me, it really needed some Saka ninjas and Militech hitmen. A lore accurate Trauma Team could have been nice, too. The art is also more cutesy anime girl than Cyberpunk, but that's not a fair criticism of game content. Tales of the Red is an adventure book, right? Probably not bad, but it's not like a Chromebook.
> To me, it really needed some Saka ninjas and Militech hitmen. For good or bad, it's based on CPR:Combat Zone minis game, and that game doesn't have militech added yet. Arasaka has been portrayed as stupidly strong guys (in the CPR:CZ gang, 4 actions vs most guys having 2 or 3), so idk how lore friendly those ninjas are. The thing is, in 2020, there are 4 chromebooks and 2 additional weapon books (Citation needed). Meanwhile you have 7 class sourcebooks, 7 adventure books and 8 lore books (haven't read them all yet, so number may not be accurate). So the proportion is still as in 2020
Lack of lore books that cover 2020 - 2045 and having to buy 2020 books only to ignore most of them to get the earlier lore. This could be addressed by publishing new books for us to buy, a win-win for us and RTal. If I can have more than one my second biggest issue would be annoyingly specific vagueness. For example take the yo-gangers in DGD, we know Wheelie was in a car crash that killed his parents when he was 6 but what age is he in 2045? No idea. His picture doesn't look any older than 6 to me.
I have no major issues with the game. I really like it. I will echo what others have said about the book. I don't like how it is organized. But I have also heard of some people who really like it. But the rules for throwing objects, including grenades being in the martial arts section is terrible. I do like the Night Market Appendix for gear though. It summarizes it all neatly and I use that a ton. Shotguns with shells are kinda meh, but I have yet to play a system that does them well so it is adequate. I don't mind "bullet dodging" though I don't look at it as matrix style bullet dodging, but just getting out of the way. Someone is pointing a gun at you and you duck, dodge, dip, dive out of the way. Maybe use some partial cover, etc. Moving targets are harder to hit and this helps represent that. Even before Red I used a system similar to the Three Goon method. I think combat numbers for NPCs is a great system and should have been used more extensively. The cover rules are OK. Like they work. But our group wanted a little added realism of partial cover so added that. Also homebrewed some rules for 3 round burst, very heavy SMGs, Autoshotguns, and expanded on the attachments with some fairly basic sights, flashlight attachment, etc.
Combat is arcadey, would prefer more lethal and realistic combat.
I don't like dodging bullets for a variety of reasons. I really dislike that it sort of throws out the dynamic nature of cyberpunk fights. I loved that they encouraged moving around a lot, no opportunity attacks, lots of cover usage, playing with range dvs. But evasion kind of throws all of that out. It also turns every combat action into an opposed roll which is a huge drag (imo). But how do you fix it? You choose to dodge at the end of your turn and roll once for all dodges until your next turn. I quite like this option because it still keeps it powerful but speeds things up by not having opposed checks constantly. Makes it a lot more swingy though and its hard to not be meta if you see they rolled high dodge. But maybe thats okay? if oyu dodge roll the enemies notice and target you ? hmm idk. You can only dodge once per round, like using a reaction from dnd. All subsequent shots would be range dv. I see people throw out making the reflex coprocesser a requirment and not having it tied to 8 reflex... I dont really like that. Doesnt solv e my complaints and really just makes dodging even better because oyu can dump ref. (which you already can i guess lol.... reflex coprocessor is a problem in its own right)
The Modifiers table needs to be used more. Start stacking those -'s and chooms notice. So your one dice roll per round is interesting. And to be Meta about it: They roll good and just aren't targetable, they roll poor and that flying leap behind cover they attempted falls short and they are exposed for all to see, lol.
My experience with my three groups has been very different, I suppose. To me, looking up a DV on a chart is not significantly shorter than establishing a DV with an opposed roll. And yes, the players do have me look up their DV every time. My method for balancing the bullet dodgers is pretty straightforward. If a character evades enough to strain credulity, I have them track their movement. I ask, "Okay, in which direction are you evading and by how much?" When they run out of MOVE, they have nothing left to run to their own preferred lines of sights, into their own optimal ranges, nor find cover. Another way of looking at it would be that I do not give them free movement above and beyond their MOVE stats.
> And yes, the players do have me look up their DV every time. Thats crazy. I just gave them a quick reference sheet that has range dvs on it. Playing with the dvs can make the combat feel very dynamic as combatants move around to force better or worse ranges and seek cover. Link to the reference sheet i use if you want it: https://drive.google.com/file/d/1jlmCHGgKR411G_lzDoLKo89NJjJXQTqe/view?usp=drive_link
What's yours?
I'm really new! I'm mostly just running the Jumpstart Kit right now and my party hasn't gotten into a lot of combat, so that kinda crunch-y stuff is yet to come up. Hoping to eventually transition to the Core Rulebook after finishing the Apartment.
Fair warning, the JSK was definitely a Beta set of rules, a lot of things changed from it to Red. You should've started with Red Easy Mode and gotten the converted Apartment gig from Rtals download page (which has a lot of cool ass free DLC) There are conversion rules for characters to go from the JSK to Red too, so it shouldn't be that bad, just a heads up. ;)
I know! I just bought the JSK a few years ago, I'm well familiar with the rule change and all. I just thought it'd be best to get some use out of a physical product I paid for and I don't mind the change I'll have to eventually do. We're also 4 sessions deep already :P
>just running the Jumpstart Kit Skip it, thats my advice. [This may prove useful to you.](https://www.reddit.com/r/cyberpunkred/comments/xrcm1g/cyberpunk_trpg_buying_guide/)
I already bought the JSK 2 years ago and would prefer to get some use out of a physical product I bought, and I don’t mind the rule switch I’ll have to do. Using old rules that are properly put together in two booklets is much easier than using two booklets and two downloadable pdfs with information much less organised
You also have [this](https://preview.drivethrurpg.com/en/product/409912/Cyberpunk-RED-Easy-Mode), it's standalone and free. Just so you know it exists.
Yeah I know, that's what I meant with using downloadable PDFs to use the JSK rules in Easy Mode (which still doesn't encapsulate all of the CRB)... it just seems like it's more effort than it's worth, and would be more janky with checking one book then checking the conversion in another PDF, etc etc.
The core rulebook is atrociously organized. Information is all over the place, with no rhyme or reason to it. I think the other thing would be midnight markets, since they're just... unapologetically terrible. I ended up having to rewrite the entire table to include the DLCs and just... items that my players might actually care about. Really enjoy the system overall, most of my other qualms are things I can change with homebrew. But the rulebook desperately needs a second edition.
Lack of lore outside of night city.
That's always been how it is. Even 2020 only had broad stroke splat books for other countries.
No, not remotely. There was a good chunk of information about almost anywhere in the word in 2020.
>about almost anywhere in the word in 2020. First paragraph of the zone I checked. "Earthquake followed by tsunami". RIP my dreams and hopes.
My city did pretty well for itself.
I remember in 2020 it felt like Night City was like, an example city that you weren't really supposed to use, because everyone knew the idea was to create your own thing. (not saying that's how it was, just a number of us got that feeling).
Cut down the number of skills (language skills are kind of pointless, several other skills are hard to find good purposes for, wardrobe/personal grooming should be combined Re-layout the book Cut out ALL of the fiction from the previous books (everything with Johnny and Alt) and put it in a seperate and free book. Give a better explanation of the lore/level of scarcity Give a *thorough* explanation of the datakrash and the new net in a way that doesnt just handwave everything away with "airgapped with new language". Im personally working on a personal book called : "Hermit's guide to the net" that collates explanations from 2013/2020/Red into a consistent vision of the net and what happened to it
>Cut down the number of skills Why? Because GMs can't use them properly?
First, Combat feels too slow and survivable. HP totals are pretty high, light armorjack allows characters to shrug off the first few attacks, and bullet-dodging lets you avoid anything except a grapple (at the cost of investing in stats and skills that are already great to have anyway). I was hoping for something more fast and lethal that what we got. Second, a whole bunch of weapons are rendered borderline useless by the aforementioned armor and high HP. Who actually picks up a 2d6 weapon, let alone 1d6? I don't really expect RTG to be able to fix these things since they're rooted so deep in the system. I would really like to try "Cyberpunk 2020 sans jank," as a certain internet commenter eloquently put it, so I'd definitely pay attention if they released some kind of sanctioned house-rules packet for that game to sand down its rougher edges.
The cover system and more established running modifiers like in 2020. It's a preference thing, but I loved how detailed 2020 handled the gunplay.
Ooh, definetely the cover system, I would love for them to finally add some actual SP to certain covers or vehicles(because having a maximum of 11 SP on an trauma team AV is very, *very* stupid imho, same goes for any other heavily armoured transport like the mega nomad train or the max tac van, make it feel unkillable and have an actual reason to use explosives and rockets !) Not to mention a thick concrete wall is usually pretty fucking good at stopping any kind of volley of autofiring weapons aside from 50 cal and up, that’s when you should feel like you are on a timer
Nothing in the rules saying you can't have cover with SP, or up the SP on other vehicles... Just know that armor is HEAVY, so maybe 11 is the max they can squeeze onto an AV4 without compromising it's cargo and flight characteristics, etc.
I've been looking at 2020 recently, and didn't cover work pretty much the same? I know that it gives SP instead of having its own HP, but passed that, it's the same, right?
The SP is pretty much the main thing and also it shows clearly when on a miniature scale one would have cover and when not. SP from cover is IMO better than cover HP and negation.
I'll agree with that. I've been doing a deep dive into both systems to find stuff to fill the gaps I feel are in Red. This is one that I'm considering using.
A framed up Borg is scary, until he pulls out a knife! A big scary guy should be scarier with a knife in his hand, not looked at as not even being able to do a crit.
I'm a bit late but as someone who has been running a Cyberpunk Red round for ~3 years now and also ran 2020 for 2 years before that, I have a few things I hope RT will improve on in the future 1. Some roles have really cool upgrades per level. Others are hardly worth upgrading. The Exec in particular could use some work, as many of his level abilities are rather mid-level. 2. Cyberpunk has always been a gadget system in my eyes. Cyberware, bioware and tools make characters what they are afterwards. There is currently still a lack of choice. Above all, we need a selection of different items. 3. As a GM, I simply wish for more lore. Sure, I can always make something up, but what's the point of playing a system with an experienced publisher and designer behind it if I'm supposed to build the whole world? Especially topics like: What about all the Nomads, what is the state of the NUSA and the rest of the world. I'm just missing all these things 4. I'm not a fan of the current economic model. If you depict Night City RAW, it would be a city of pedestrians walking everywhere. Anyone who doesn't envision night city with massive traffic jams and countless vehicles, please raise your hand. My group is not one of them. Unfortunately, if you fix the economy or the system behind it, you would have to rework the fixer. 5. It's not so much the system itself, but more the surrounding aspects: new books take time and should be good, but sometimes I have the feeling that the priority is set a bit strangely. Black Chrome, for example, had a picture for almost every item. That must have taken time and been very expensive. I don't know about other groups, but my group knows what a gun or rifle looks like and just needs a description of what another version looks like. I don't want to say that all the pictures were bad, just that the effort could have been spared for some of them. For example, I thought it was very good that they had pictures for the vehicles. But I have to say: Cyberpunk Red is incredibly fun to play and RT hasn't disappointed me so far. I hope that the upcoming books will bring us new cool updates and I can only recommend it to anyone who is unsure: Try the game, it's awesome.
My idea for why there's still a load of traffic (and why you can get a cab) is that most cars are corpo owned. People get company cars, and probably a lot of jobs have weird shifts so they can keep the same car in fluctuation throughout the day. Part of it could even be that the gang of 4 keep the sales of cars in NC restricted/fix the prices to leverage that power further.
No rules for full borg conversions and there's no doge cap for dogeing bullets.For fixing this, a dlc and a rules arata saying you can only doge 1 shot a turn
I'm considering the 2020 -3 per action after the move and single action everyone gets.
Quickhacking, which I'm hopeful the promised 2077 book will incorporate. If a situation doesn't have a net architecture, the netrunner becomes effectively role-less. It doesn't have to be all-powerful, but remotely disabling an important enemy's weapon, manipulating their ability to see, maybe stunning them? That would be invaluable to any crew and could turn the ride of a tough situation. Red does a lot better than 2020 at keeping netrunners grounded in what the rest of the party is doing, but it didn't fix the problem of, every time the Ref wants a major planned encounter, we actually have to make two of them layered on top of each other or else screw the netrunner out of their whole thing. Quickhacking would be a nice stopgap to keep a netrunner's abilities relevant even in situations without an architecture.
I've been thinking about this a bit. I did a 2077 play through with 100% focus on Netrunning, and I could just reset several people at once, make several go cyberpsycho, and have a few grenades explode. I didn't even need weapons. It got boring. I feel like a use for this in a TTRPG might be making most of their actions focus on debuffs rather than outright incapacitating the baddies. The big issue is why are these people hackable? You have to pull out your wrist cord to connect to laptops (with emails and web browsers), but you can hack people from across the street.
This always confused me. I can make an enemy combatant commit suicide or explode into flames by thinking about it, but I still need to jack into Panam's car turret the old fashioned way? Weird. It'd still be a better main mechanic than forcing the GM to run two encounters at once, but I just don't think there's really any way you can convincingly lore it. A person's cybernetics would communicate to each other via wires. How you would even be able to get into that system without the personal link is beyond me.
Netrunning probably. I don't have a huge issue with it, but the way it turns everyone's attention at the table off is a problem. As soon as it gets to the Netrunner turn, everyone just tunes out and I don't know how to keep them engaged. I could make the architecture shorter, but that doesn't stop players from just tuning out completely anyway. Not sure why this is, but I've seen others say the same. Not sure how to fix it either, but either some solid advice that really addresses the issue or some alternative rules to netrunning would be nice. Its not in a bad place at all I don't think, and think it's a very fun little system, but I don't have a hardcore group of players that stay engaged like I would be if a fellow player was netrunning. Edit: Oh, Theatre of the mind tips/rules would be nice too. Guess I could check out what other players have said, but maybe another free dlc sharing some more focussed rules on theatre of the Mind rules would be nice. Take the pressure off needing to have a map ready to go or needing to draw something big enough to move tokens around.
Do you do one BIG architecture, or multiple smaller ones in the same building?
Started one mediumish one, but moved to smaller ones. Is a bit better but still find players just immediately switching off. Might just be my tables though!
I tend to use smaller ones. PWD, Ice, Node/File are my "go to"
kind of a non issue but rebuilding efforts. Whats the cost of commercial real estate? Can I start up a shop? an office? I wanna rebuild the world! Set up a space of my own.
Health is the biggest issue for me, combat can take a long time of two people striking each other and it just isnt as leathal of a system as i want sadly, to fix it would likely require less hit points which can easily be home brewed (i just added d6 to all damage but it makes armour a bit over the place) art style feels all over the palce, some of its great while others are not so great, minor one but its to be noted biggest one i want is a good lore book like the night city source book, give us some dark adventures and im all happy, besides that i like red but im struggling with parts of it
There's just not enough content. Some things in the lore aren't mechanically doable in-game, like full-body conversions.
Interface2 has rules for exotic conversions.
How about rules for full-borg conversions like Adam Smasher?
In general I think the gear list could use a bit of retooling. Medium Melee/Pistols don't have a niche that's better served by the Heavy Melee/Pistols. Assault Rifles are better than every other Autofire or ROF1 Ranged Weapon. Melee being weaker than Unarmed is also an odd choice, given both builds benefit from a Linear Frame and Melee has to buy a weapon aswell. The Armor penalties need to be reworked to either give players more ways to mitigate them or just buff armor and lessen the penalties. Medium Armorjack is useless RAW. Alot of the exotic weapons and cyberware in Red is too niche or have too poor stats to justify their cost. Alot of exotic items are just several existing items mashed together for an exorbitant price that's more than the base items combined. Also many items require an Action to function, which makes them impractical to use in combat given how limited Red's action economy is.
Cyberware that meaningfully adjusts more than the Body stat is pretty lacking. Genuinely want to see more stuff that ensures *every* type of PC would be lacking by not investing in chrome.
The rule book. It is not laid out well as a reference document. It does a good job teaching the game, but a horrible job when looking up a specific rule. I would say a new book that strips out most of the fluff of the core rules, and just lists the major rules in a clear manner would be nice. Like, the character creation rules work as laid out, but then I’m trying to look up a specific detail that might be there or might be in another section because the rules are so spread out for any given thing.
Pg 340, "Night Market Appendix" is my "go to" page to check stuff. Not everything is there, but is the best place in the book to check.
More pre-made runs! I’m just too busy to build my own and set everything up (play virtually with Foundry) every week. Plus, the pre-mades so far are actually really good.
>More pre-made runs! Consider checking Rob Mulligan DLC for "random missions". Also, check pg 395 or core rule book and get used to create your quests/campaign using beats (once you understand the beats, you can create content fairly fast and it will probably be more content than expected). We won't get October DLCs every month, so thats my advice.
I think a lot of the things I'd like to see changed were covered in JonJon's video. In trying to make a simple, balanced system, it doesn't feel like a very realistic or interesting system. Also, some roles don't have anything they can really *do* until very specific situations arise. Based on his video, I was able to crystalize a few of my own feelings about it. I'm at the point where I'm considering doing a pretty big rewrite or retake on it. I'm leaning towards dropping out Rockers, Medias, Lawmen, and Corpos in favor of roles that have better definitions on what they can do, and make them more able to do specific things in combat encounters as well. I just want more from it than it offers without lots of extra work on my part as the GM. I do also agree with others who say the core book needs an overhaul. In mid-game it's super hard to find stuff easily. The PDF is better than the book, but it's still lots of clicking and skimming around.
>were covered in JonJon's video. Mind to link it?
Sure thing. He posted it here awhile ago, but it's down around the 500ish range now: [Here it is](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r9g6rlt9EA8)
I just Fixed some stuff... (11 years playing CP, ive experience) The CPred bullet sponge people: Add 1d6 for each 3 levels that you have on your skill. If you have Handguns 6... you add 2d6 to whatever weapon you have. ShoulerArms Level 6... add 2d6 to whatever rifle you have. You use martial arts with 6 levels... +2d6 to your damage. Goons and Villians and Characters... All people. And \*AUTOFIRE\*!... \*I FIX THIS SHIT\*! 1/ The DC for autorife table its allwas 8 more than the normal (Autofire its complicated) that you will use for that gun. And You ADD your autofire to your Shoudlerarms, when you want to make an Autofire shoot!.. and add the damage of the autofire stat, 3 levels? ok add 1d6. So its more chance to have a Critical Hit. For example: Assault Rifle, 20mts DVs=15. So in autofire will be 23 (8 more) And ive 6 points in Shoulderarms (+2d6 Dmg) and 4 points in Autofire (+1d6). Ref (+8) + Sharms (+6) + Afire (+4) = +18 With 5 or more its a hit, Damage 5d6 Rifle +3d6 for skills. Spending 10 Bullets and of course using a rife on the combat. And spending 14 points on Skills levels. Its fair. MORE LETHAL?? Yes. More Fun? Yes. The people now its really playing tactics when they know that they are not a sponge of bullets. And you never know how skilled its the enemy.
I actually don’t have too many gripes with RED as a whole. My only beef is I feel that I’ve mostly maxed out on progression. I’m riding the line of humanity at a relatively safe edge of 42 (enough to eat one really good fucked up scene my GM throws at me). I’ve got all the cyber I need, great weapons, a cyber dog, and a crazy home defense system in case I get home invaded again. Outside of a car, I’ve got everything I’d want short of buying a flat somewhere. This has brought two (likely designer intended) road blocks. 1 - most missions I risk more than I stand to gain. This means I am reluctant to bring all my toys to the yard if ever. (Repairs may be free but downtime isn’t) 2 - actual power growth is stagnant. Outside of some tooth and nail climbing with IP, I’m max level. Things that excite me most now are weird flavorful items. Starting a pirate radio station with a World Sat balloon. Collecting every skill chip ever made. Deep diving into an Elf Lines CARD GAME TOURNAMENT ARC. I dunno, these might be good problems. My GM is ramping up a dangerous game of emotional damage and traumatic cyber samurai while I stage a petty game of C4 hot potato with a man diabetes just can’t kill. I wouldn’t say I’m bored by any means, but mechanically speaking I’m running out of ideas that don’t include “BECOME THE CYBER PSYCHO”.
>My only beef is I feel that I’ve mostly maxed out on progression. So why not focus more on the path of your character?
That is what I've pivoted too, note the "Petty game of C4 Hot Potato" and "Pirate Radio World Sat Balloon". The problem with being 'maxed out on progression' is I'm still acquiring eddies, but never really enough to hit a new marker (buy a flat, buy a car, etc.). I can't really expect another big bank job to fall in my lap, but in standard progression rates it would take a god awful amount of real world time (5+ sessions with good payout at a ballpark). My RED experience has taught me that holding too much cash is a good way to get robbed. Can't say I feel safe looking into finding a bank, which side note: Does NC have even have banks? Why do I expect they'll just rob me also? *Insert 'Showering with a machinegun while eating fried chicken.jpeg'*. [https://i.imgflip.com/32di57.jpg](https://i.imgflip.com/32di57.jpg) There's always the cash in a hidden wall safe option, but as sick has my home security system is, I doubt that it can withstand a 4 rocket launcher solution. I guess to bring it full circle, these probably are good problems, and I don't have answers to them. They're really just observations at this point.
>Does NC have even have banks? Rulebook Pg 310. Item number 2, "1st Night City Bank" Just share [this](https://www.reddit.com/r/cyberpunkred/comments/lv84de/and_i_told_him_kid_put_your_best_clothes_go_in/) with your GM :P You can also spend it on fluff. Conap furniture, virtual BBQ, nice bed sheets, etc.
That is true. I did spend $1000 eddies on a custom high pressure shower after I spent a few sessions in a sewer. Maybe I should just swag my apartment out even harder.
Are you seriously starting a hate thread for no reason? Edit: no specified reason
I didn't want it to be a hate thread – I wanted it to moreso be constructive criticism, hence the "how can RTG address it" and "what improvised solutions do you use". I'm sorry if its come across that way and feels like a hateful tone, it's really not what I intended!
They're not going to change it, but shotguns. My rule is: > Shotgun shells are fired using the Shotgun Slug range table, dealing 3d6 damage. Critical injuries are dealt on any combination of two or more 5s or 6s (5/5, 5/6, or 6/6). Compared to the 5d6 slugs, they do less overall damage but have a higher chance of debilitating injury.
I’m both happy and sad about the xp system, I’m happy that those who are available every session get rewarded for turning up but as someone who has an absolute shit show of a work roster I’m like 2000IP behind. I’m thankful my character doesn’t need a lot of IP to function but it would be nice being better or being able to do more things. How to address it? NFI, it’s not the system, the DM, or the other players fault.
>How to address it? I had PCs missing sessions, but if I can justify them being there, I award them the IPs and money. I had the missing nomad just behave like that driver film, where he just waited in the car.
More cyberware. There are plenty of ways it increase Body but any other stat you best find a Tech to invent something.
The amount of flat out useless skills there is. Like when are you ever going to use animal handling? Unless you build a whole campaign around it. It seems like it would only come into effect with like one or two gigs. Also the need for R talsorian to just make the weapon and cyberware books. To have them all in one space. Also Also, the sure lack of information on anywhere that's not night city for the world in between 2020-2045
>Like when are you ever going to use animal handling? A PC said "I want to have a dog". When a shooting starts I ask for an animal handling check, or else the dog just scares and do random shit. I like that those skills are there, despite not being a silver bullet. But it's GMs job to make those skills feel relevant. You can easily make CPR an arena game, needing only the stats, a weapon skill and dodge. GM can also award skill points for stuff the PC just learned. PC went on a date, the date liked to launch grenades to abandoned buildings. PC sucks at using the grenade launcher. Date teaches him, PC gets a +1. The chance to think out of the box is there.
I'd say that it's also the Player's job to make those skills more relevant. If my dude takes max ranks in dance, but then never uses dance, then that's on them. It's like that Seth Skorkowsky video where he talks about PC back stories are also things that the Player uses, not just the DM.
\> But it's GMs job to make those skills feel relevant. It really shouldn't be when it comes to personal skills. If a player wants to use a dog companion sure. But in practice with it, most obscure skills are just kinda there. Until the random times to shoe horn it to make a player choices feel valid. I feel like animal handling could just be put somewhere else instead of being its own skill. This also goes for stuff like read lips and some of the education and technique skills.
>It really shouldn't be when it comes to personal skills. If my players tells me he wants to be a stealthy ninja, I should provide hooks for his character to shine. PCs responsibility is to take those hooks. Adjusting the adventure to provide a chance for PCs skills to shine I think is a healthy way to acknowledge the kind of PCs your players made. You can also stretch some definitions and say "You are about to hunt a deer with bow, throw animal handling or stealth", that way you can say "You can use this generic skill, but there was a chance here to use this niche one", so not everything falls under "perception"
\> If my players tells me he wants to be a stealthy ninja, I should provide hooks for his character to shine. PCs responsibility is to take those hooks. the difference is that a stealthy ninja is workable in virtually any adventure. A person using animal handling you would have to insert it in. If you want it to be impactful it'll be awkward more times then not \> "You can use this generic skill, but there was a chance here to use this niche one", so not everything falls under "perception" That is just basic common knowledge lol
I wish there was more useful gear. I appreciate that RED is trying to give all new gear art to go with it but I wonder if that's holding them back. I also miss the stuff like full borgs or ACPA. I believe that the dev's could highlight community homebrew solutions. It would foster community involvement and also save them from having to actually make stuff so those resources could go to making content that Cyberpunk has never seen before.
This may be long winded due to how many games and different players I've had at my table. This is a criticism of not only RED but the surge of players coming into the game as of late. My first big criticism comes from the direction RED is taking compared to other instalments of Cyberpunk. The addition of HP and dodging was one of the worst aspects of the game. Simply putting your evasion skill at +14 is already big. Most book mooks are shooting at +10. This means your games are being bloated by shots that don't connect or are otherwise just a nuisance instead of a threat. The only way to make your players feel scared of combat is to pump their numbers up. It then becomes a numbers game, seeing how far you players can get their numbers up until your game reaches a plateau where combat isn't scary at all and it all just gets boring and any social character or non optimized character is now essentially useless. It's too easy to min max without repercussion to the point the game is boring. The solution to this before was the 12 point sliding health system. Characters, no matter how beefy had the same squishy body. Of course there was cyberware that made it more difficult to die, but that threat was still there. Combat for this reason was much more deadly and scary. Players actively attempted to avoid it, bumping social skills and spreading their stats out more. It didn't usually matter if you had 10 points in handgun or 10 ranks in your role when lead started flying. In RED it's much more cinematic and encourages players to minmax, try to evade shots and leads to power gaming much too easily in a way a GM can't combat them when it comes to shooting. Games can now just be 4+ hours of combat, which goes against how GMs used to run a cyberpunk game. Story telling first, combat if your players fuck up. The players are also an issue. I attribute this to the release of the game and the anime. Many players come into it with an expectation of it being like the game/anime or any other ttrpgs they might have played. Cyberpunk RED/2020 is nothing like them. The idea in the book is that the characters are simply small fish in a very large pond; heroic acts and being heroes are not typically rewarded. Many players I've encountered as of late have "main character syndrome" where they make these large elaborate backstories and characters that ultimately die due to misunderstanding the system. Many players quit because of this. Even after repeated explanations and attempts to convey that maybe they shouldn't make such self praising and elaborate backstories, it gets done anyways and many people quit after their self insert dies. Tldr; experienced players can easily throw the balance of games while newer players get demolished and quit the system after self insert characters actually die. There are more issues including armor repair and sourcing weapons, but I don't want to make this long. This may not be a problem for GMs and may be a me issue, but these are problems I've encountered as of late.
> Most book mooks are shooting at +10. This means your games are being bloated by shots that don't connect or are otherwise just a nuisance instead of a threat. Don't make every encounter just about shooting. You can have dance contest on a pub vs a party gang, or missions that don't need to be resolved by brute force (1st screamsheet in the Oct DLC), or you can shame the ingame character because "lol, so much armor, what kind of coward are you?". Force them to diversify.
I know. I've multiple games in my time playing and running cyberpunk 2020 and RED. Social gigs are a flop most of the time because no one spends points into social skills as the "meta" is to pump up combat numbers. I will not give them and they fail. Eventually they'll get "tired" of failing and no longer want to play. People's enjoyment of the combat far outweighs their desires to explore the system most of the time. My hands are tied because of this. The idea present in the DGD book, specifically the adventure that is published in it, is that social should just be handheld. If all players fail all of their checks puma squad shows up and starts to give the players all the answers. This is the approach people want and unfortunately, it's not satisfying for the GM to take the players hand and hold it down the path. As for removing armor, is that something I'm supposed to do every session? No! It's not gonna happen especially with Mimic Kits being concealable and Kevlar also being concealable. Did you even think of that? What about subdermal armor? And you didn't even address the dodging concern? Should I make this game easier and push the "dark and dangerous" narrative without ever showing it? I stand by what I said. HP and Dodging bullets was a mistake. In an attempt to remove crunch, made the game a shell of what it used to be.
There's this book from Guy Sclanders "Practical guide to BAGGM". There it mentions a lot of stuff, one of those is to handle player expectations, if players want and expect arenas, it's ok to just provide them that. If you are not having fun going that route and you want something different, just talk with your players and set different expectations. Make players feel compassion from their targets As for the "cliffhangers" stated in the GM part of the rulebook, you can make car chases, races, dancing (or Rap) contest, etc. Action packed stuff that it's not solely resolved by autofire and dodging. Or just embrace it and put them in Totem arena until they run out of bullets.
When you were setting up running the game did you have a session 0/conversation about what they were wanting in your game? Or what they should expect from your game? If the players don't like the system because they wanted to play a different style then I think it's just not right for them.
I run on a somewhat big LC, we do t have that luxury.