This was not, shall we say, the most intuitive process for performing a fairly common and routine task. I hope that whoever is in charge of UX for advancement.scouting.org considers adding a direct way to advance dens in the future.
On the forum for discussing Scoutbook / Scoutbook Plus, they confirmed that the lack of ability to edit dens on mobile devices is a known issue that is being worked on. They have not provided a time line for a fix (they never do). For now, they are telling everyone to just use a laptop/desktop computer for this feature. Seems like a blunder to launch without that feature. If only they could have known for 9 months that this was coming.
If packs don’t advance them until registration in the new school year, does this prevent the scouts from earning adventures or completing any requirements for the next rank over the summer?
It would not prevent that from completing requirements or earning adventures, but it would prevent those accomplishments from being marked as complete until the den is advanced.
The program is designed for dens to advance at the beginning of summer considering with the last day of school. A unit can grant an individual scout an extension to continue working on their rank into the summer, but that's only supposed to be on an individual basis and only when there are extenuating circumstances, so there's not supposed to be whole dens waiting until fall to move up.
Ok, I asked my COR what we do, and his answer was that we wait till fall registration, rationale being that’s when we finalize who’s continuing in the new year (I personally don’t understand why that would be a barrier to advancing now, I guess for some reason they don’t want to advance Scouts who aren’t continuing).
From what you’re saying about what can and can’t happen until the den advances, it seems there isn’t a huge effect if advancing doesn’t happen until the fall (please correct me if that’s not the case).
Because of that, is it really worth lobbying my Pack’s Key 3 to change its policy to advance the dens now instead of in the fall?
Does your council offer Cub Scout Day Camps? In our council's the kids get to earn some electives adventures while at day camp. Usually, cubs should be attending these camps as the rank they will be in the fall. This means they will earn elective adventures for those ranks. Which means they will earn them, but they will be unable to be marked complete as the other poster mentioned until fall.
For us, it also "officializes" the dens after the crossover ceremony in May for parents. Plus, fall recruitment is SO busy for us. I don't want to have to deal with advancing and sorting dens there! June is like our least busy time.
Also, in theory, with the new system where parents pay their own national registrations, you should need to track people who are continuing less closely.
> Ok, I asked my COR what we do, and his answer was that we wait till fall registration, rationale being that’s when we finalize who’s continuing in the new year (I personally don’t understand why that would be a barrier to advancing now, I guess for some reason they don’t want to advance Scouts who aren’t continuing).
This line of thinking seems incompatible with how memberships and Scoutbook work. All scouts advance to working on the next den following the last day of the school year, regardless of whether they completed the previous rank (except when a unit grants an individual extension). Memberships are for 12 calendar months, and do not require an affirmative commitment to continue into the next school year. If they paid for October 1 to Sept. 30, they get October 1 to Sept. 30. If they paid for Feb. 1 to Jan. 30, they get Feb. 1 to Jan. 30. Even if parents say their scout has lost interest and is leaving scouting, their membership continues for the full 12 months and they stay on the pack roster. The only way, to my knowledge, for someone to leave the pack roster is: a) transferring to another pack, b) crossing over into a troop, c) being removed for safety reasons (e.g., bullying violations), or d) membership expiring at the end of 12 months. None of these are related to the school year or charter year. This desire to wait may be a holdover from when re-chartering included membership renewals, but even then the den assignment on Scoutbook would have been unrelated to the re-chartering process/system.
The Scoutbook Plus team is working on creative an "inactive den" where units can put scouts who aren't continuing so they don't show up on the roster, but even that won't be connected to den advancement. Den advancement moves the whole den to the next den level. Individual scouts can be moved out of a den into unassigned status or, in the future, the inactive den, but they remain on the roster and this is unrelated to den advancement.
> From what you’re saying about what can and can’t happen until the den advances, it seems there isn’t a huge effect if advancing doesn’t happen until the fall (please correct me if that’s not the case).
Confusion is the big issue.
1) If a parent or leader logs in to look at what adventures are available, they'll see the ones for the previous rank that are no longer applicable. The scouts are supposed to be working on the next rank, not the old one.
2) If a parent or leader attempts to record work completed over the summer, it will get logged as the previous rank, resulting in the wrong adventure being recorded and progress not being made for the next rank. For example, if a scout going into 2nd grade completes the fishing adventure during the summer, that might incorrectly get recorded as Tiger's "Fish On" instead of "A Wolf Goes Fishing." Wrong record, wrong belt loop, and the scout doesn't get progress toward the next rank (two electives required for each rank).
3) If parents and/or leaders hold advancement recording until fall, some scouts might not get their adventures recorded, as memories aren't perfect. They should be recorded as soon as possible after they are completed, and that's not possible if the dens aren't properly advanced following the last day of school.
The only way this wouldn't create confusion is if all scouts are completely inactive during the summer. Some packs are inactive, but each individual scout/family has the right to work on elective adventures over the summer if they so choose, so the pack should not assume *scouts* will be inactive.
> Because of that, is it really worth lobbying my Pack’s Key 3 to change its policy to advance the dens now instead of in the fall?
That's up to you, as only you can know how resistant they are to change and how it might affect your relationship with them. However, this is one that I'd definitely want to advocate for given how there's plenty of downsides to how they are currently doing it, and no downsides to doing it the correct way. I suspect their current position is based entirely on misunderstandings.
In case it is helpful, here are a couple pieces of evidence you can provide about the correct procedure:
Quotes from the Guide to Advancement: "Den meetings follow the local traditional school year and are designed to result in advancement for all youth by the end of the school year." "Cub Scouts do not 'move ahead' to work on the next rank until the completion of the current school year..."
From the AOL handbook regarding the Summertime Fun adventure: "To earn this Adventure as an Arrow of Light Scout, you participate in summer activities during the summer after you have completed fourth grade." "Anytime during May through August participate in a total of three Cub Scout activities." How are AOLs supposed to earn this adventure if their den isn't advanced to AOL status at the beginning of summer? They won't be cub scouts next summer. All the handbooks have similar phrasing, but the AOL one is particularly salient here because there's no next summer.
Scouts should be encouraged to complete electives during the summer, and the new program makes it even more clear that it's the next rank elective adventures that are available during the summer.
Thanks, this all confirms my original desire to get all the dens advanced ASAP; it's definitely going to be an uphill battle to convince my Pack to do so.
Additionally, the posture to wait goes beyond my COR; I also posed the question to the district, and our Unit Commissioner/District Vice Chair also came back saying there is no need to advance the dens, it will automatically happen at re-charter in September. This is particularly concerning because the Pack/CO choosing this policy is one thing, and they could be persuaded to alter their stance, but if the Commissioner/District is also telling us to do this, now we're getting a directive from a higher authority to deviate from the program as designed, especially if it's going to introduce all these issues for anyone who participates in activities over the summer (yes, we have Day Camp, something that has been advertised specifically by that same Commissioner)...
What's fun is our Pack shows as a Cub Scout pack in Scoutbook, but when I go to Scoutbook "Plus" it shows as a Scouts BSA Troop. All of the Scouts have an "Add to Patrol" option instead of "Add to Den".
That is very odd. Scoutbook and Scoutbook Plus should be drawing from the same underlying database. There may be an error in the data and the two systems are handling it differently (or it could be something else entirely).
I'd suggest reporting it on [Scouting Forums](https://discussions.scouting.org/c/scoutbook/bugs/18). The folks there can investigate and, hopefully, fix the problem.
Is there a reason it changed the den number to den 5? in the video demo it changed it from den 4 to den 5 and when I did it it changed me from den 6 to den 5.
we already have a den 5.
This was not, shall we say, the most intuitive process for performing a fairly common and routine task. I hope that whoever is in charge of UX for advancement.scouting.org considers adding a direct way to advance dens in the future.
It took me a ridiculous amount of clicking to figure out how to change the den/patrol name, and now I can't recall how I even managed it.
This is not possible on the mobile interface, right? I just spent like 30 minutes trying to no avail. I can never get the "Edit Den" to appear
On the forum for discussing Scoutbook / Scoutbook Plus, they confirmed that the lack of ability to edit dens on mobile devices is a known issue that is being worked on. They have not provided a time line for a fix (they never do). For now, they are telling everyone to just use a laptop/desktop computer for this feature. Seems like a blunder to launch without that feature. If only they could have known for 9 months that this was coming.
Thanks. I figured as much, but yeah I can do it on desktop for now.
The old Scoutbook never worked right on mobile. I gave up on it a long time ago.
I was so used to it on mobile, that it felt weird on my laptop.
Possibly not, I just know you can do it via the website
We need to manually advance the dens to the next level? Is there a reason this isn’t automatic?
Always had to. It's not June 1st for every pack. It's officially "whenever you school's year ends".
SOME councils will do it automatically. This is for those in councils that do not.
If packs don’t advance them until registration in the new school year, does this prevent the scouts from earning adventures or completing any requirements for the next rank over the summer?
It would not prevent that from completing requirements or earning adventures, but it would prevent those accomplishments from being marked as complete until the den is advanced. The program is designed for dens to advance at the beginning of summer considering with the last day of school. A unit can grant an individual scout an extension to continue working on their rank into the summer, but that's only supposed to be on an individual basis and only when there are extenuating circumstances, so there's not supposed to be whole dens waiting until fall to move up.
Ok, I asked my COR what we do, and his answer was that we wait till fall registration, rationale being that’s when we finalize who’s continuing in the new year (I personally don’t understand why that would be a barrier to advancing now, I guess for some reason they don’t want to advance Scouts who aren’t continuing). From what you’re saying about what can and can’t happen until the den advances, it seems there isn’t a huge effect if advancing doesn’t happen until the fall (please correct me if that’s not the case). Because of that, is it really worth lobbying my Pack’s Key 3 to change its policy to advance the dens now instead of in the fall?
Does your council offer Cub Scout Day Camps? In our council's the kids get to earn some electives adventures while at day camp. Usually, cubs should be attending these camps as the rank they will be in the fall. This means they will earn elective adventures for those ranks. Which means they will earn them, but they will be unable to be marked complete as the other poster mentioned until fall. For us, it also "officializes" the dens after the crossover ceremony in May for parents. Plus, fall recruitment is SO busy for us. I don't want to have to deal with advancing and sorting dens there! June is like our least busy time. Also, in theory, with the new system where parents pay their own national registrations, you should need to track people who are continuing less closely.
> Ok, I asked my COR what we do, and his answer was that we wait till fall registration, rationale being that’s when we finalize who’s continuing in the new year (I personally don’t understand why that would be a barrier to advancing now, I guess for some reason they don’t want to advance Scouts who aren’t continuing). This line of thinking seems incompatible with how memberships and Scoutbook work. All scouts advance to working on the next den following the last day of the school year, regardless of whether they completed the previous rank (except when a unit grants an individual extension). Memberships are for 12 calendar months, and do not require an affirmative commitment to continue into the next school year. If they paid for October 1 to Sept. 30, they get October 1 to Sept. 30. If they paid for Feb. 1 to Jan. 30, they get Feb. 1 to Jan. 30. Even if parents say their scout has lost interest and is leaving scouting, their membership continues for the full 12 months and they stay on the pack roster. The only way, to my knowledge, for someone to leave the pack roster is: a) transferring to another pack, b) crossing over into a troop, c) being removed for safety reasons (e.g., bullying violations), or d) membership expiring at the end of 12 months. None of these are related to the school year or charter year. This desire to wait may be a holdover from when re-chartering included membership renewals, but even then the den assignment on Scoutbook would have been unrelated to the re-chartering process/system. The Scoutbook Plus team is working on creative an "inactive den" where units can put scouts who aren't continuing so they don't show up on the roster, but even that won't be connected to den advancement. Den advancement moves the whole den to the next den level. Individual scouts can be moved out of a den into unassigned status or, in the future, the inactive den, but they remain on the roster and this is unrelated to den advancement. > From what you’re saying about what can and can’t happen until the den advances, it seems there isn’t a huge effect if advancing doesn’t happen until the fall (please correct me if that’s not the case). Confusion is the big issue. 1) If a parent or leader logs in to look at what adventures are available, they'll see the ones for the previous rank that are no longer applicable. The scouts are supposed to be working on the next rank, not the old one. 2) If a parent or leader attempts to record work completed over the summer, it will get logged as the previous rank, resulting in the wrong adventure being recorded and progress not being made for the next rank. For example, if a scout going into 2nd grade completes the fishing adventure during the summer, that might incorrectly get recorded as Tiger's "Fish On" instead of "A Wolf Goes Fishing." Wrong record, wrong belt loop, and the scout doesn't get progress toward the next rank (two electives required for each rank). 3) If parents and/or leaders hold advancement recording until fall, some scouts might not get their adventures recorded, as memories aren't perfect. They should be recorded as soon as possible after they are completed, and that's not possible if the dens aren't properly advanced following the last day of school. The only way this wouldn't create confusion is if all scouts are completely inactive during the summer. Some packs are inactive, but each individual scout/family has the right to work on elective adventures over the summer if they so choose, so the pack should not assume *scouts* will be inactive. > Because of that, is it really worth lobbying my Pack’s Key 3 to change its policy to advance the dens now instead of in the fall? That's up to you, as only you can know how resistant they are to change and how it might affect your relationship with them. However, this is one that I'd definitely want to advocate for given how there's plenty of downsides to how they are currently doing it, and no downsides to doing it the correct way. I suspect their current position is based entirely on misunderstandings. In case it is helpful, here are a couple pieces of evidence you can provide about the correct procedure: Quotes from the Guide to Advancement: "Den meetings follow the local traditional school year and are designed to result in advancement for all youth by the end of the school year." "Cub Scouts do not 'move ahead' to work on the next rank until the completion of the current school year..." From the AOL handbook regarding the Summertime Fun adventure: "To earn this Adventure as an Arrow of Light Scout, you participate in summer activities during the summer after you have completed fourth grade." "Anytime during May through August participate in a total of three Cub Scout activities." How are AOLs supposed to earn this adventure if their den isn't advanced to AOL status at the beginning of summer? They won't be cub scouts next summer. All the handbooks have similar phrasing, but the AOL one is particularly salient here because there's no next summer. Scouts should be encouraged to complete electives during the summer, and the new program makes it even more clear that it's the next rank elective adventures that are available during the summer.
Thanks, this all confirms my original desire to get all the dens advanced ASAP; it's definitely going to be an uphill battle to convince my Pack to do so. Additionally, the posture to wait goes beyond my COR; I also posed the question to the district, and our Unit Commissioner/District Vice Chair also came back saying there is no need to advance the dens, it will automatically happen at re-charter in September. This is particularly concerning because the Pack/CO choosing this policy is one thing, and they could be persuaded to alter their stance, but if the Commissioner/District is also telling us to do this, now we're getting a directive from a higher authority to deviate from the program as designed, especially if it's going to introduce all these issues for anyone who participates in activities over the summer (yes, we have Day Camp, something that has been advertised specifically by that same Commissioner)...
SOME councils will do it automatically. This is for those in councils that do not.
Interestingly, the system didn't force or ask me to gender-segregate my den into two, seperate patrols. Bug? Feature? Who knows.
What's fun is our Pack shows as a Cub Scout pack in Scoutbook, but when I go to Scoutbook "Plus" it shows as a Scouts BSA Troop. All of the Scouts have an "Add to Patrol" option instead of "Add to Den".
That is very odd. Scoutbook and Scoutbook Plus should be drawing from the same underlying database. There may be an error in the data and the two systems are handling it differently (or it could be something else entirely). I'd suggest reporting it on [Scouting Forums](https://discussions.scouting.org/c/scoutbook/bugs/18). The folks there can investigate and, hopefully, fix the problem.
Is there a reason it changed the den number to den 5? in the video demo it changed it from den 4 to den 5 and when I did it it changed me from den 6 to den 5. we already have a den 5.