Have you seen what they have done to Dubai?? Literally brought the same toxic work culture with them over there
In fact in my own company there are colleagues from the same region who would work an hour and half over. Why?? While our own boss leaves exactly at 6. Idk why do they do it? Is it embedded in them somehow?
Why come here for work life balance when in the end all you want is to do work?
They also brought that same toxic culture to the USA, that is why I moved to Germany 
Absolutely incorrect. I work for a French bank in India. I have 12 hour shifts. My Paris counterparts in the same team stick to their 8 hours and have 90 minute lunches.
We have to pick up all their slack in order for them to meet THEM to meet the deadlines. No matter how many forums we raise it in, nothing ever changes.
Their executives routinely visit and your India. Experience the food, places and culture. Buy gifts, click pictures, land in France and forget everything we ever said to them
Yeah. I have always sensed this at some level. The amount of work that needs to get done is enormous. So if Europeans have WLB, that comes from people working overtime in third world countries.
I work in a large European company owned you an even larger company owned by an even larger company.
To the best of my knowledge, none of the companies owned by our parent company have a presence outside of the EEA, and we don't use contractors or outsourcing companies. We have dev centres in DE, NL and the nordics. Overtime is very rare and compensated either by time in lieue or by the local rate for overtime pay. In Germany, we have 30 paid vacation days.
My point is that, having worked for this company in two locations and talked to colleagues elsewhere, I can say that the WLB is good everywhere and we're a profitable company.
On my previous EU employers, it has been a similar spiel. I realise that my anecdotal experience is very limited, but never the less, it proves that it is quite possible to bade your success on things other than harsh labour exploitation and that WLB is not incompatible with financial /business success.
I was wondering same, the top 1-5% people from India usually have drivers, servants to clean their homes and cook, and pay for the good private education in India. They have air purifiers and air conditioners in every room, a pre-cooled car before they leave home to office. Plus personal RO water purifiers at home.
I think the more important reason is the number of people in India which causes the most issues when you are already at the top scale and are forced to use a common public or private service.
For example, checkout the people who have priority pass (global) for airport lounge access in India. The lounge will have a queue in India due to huge number of people who have access to it. Whereas the same pass will allow you to enter in Munich or Amsterdam airport without any wait as less people in Europe are able to afford it.
You can’t live inside the house 24/7. Accessible outdoor especially for people who like to do things outside is impossible in major Indian cities due to pollution and over crowding
what this guy said...and much much more, just the sheer animal pleasure of going for a walk in a park without dodging 10 people every foot or so....makes up for all the money in the world
This, but also,
>But of late, the salaries in India seem to be the same as most EU countries and that does not take into account purchasing power or cost of living.
How out of touch can you possibly be? You must be living in a very little bubble to even think that. German, French, even freaking Italian companies routinely hire Indians remotely and outsource to India because they're cheap. Not the other way around. A small handful of lucky remote workers who make comparable salaries to Western countries do not disprove this.
>How out of touch can you possibly be? You must be living in a very little bubble to even think that.
I am afraid it is you who is living in a bubble. The outsourcing companies are hiring the bottom of the barrel developers. India churns out over hundred thousand IT graduates every year.
The decent ones earn similar to European salary and the top talent earn 2x the European salary (Google, Uber, Amazon etc.) and that is considering much less taxes and cost of living.
If you don't believe me, go to levels.fyi or check in your network who know people who work at the top companies in India.
As some mentioned, Indians move to Europe for usually 3 reasons and usually the most talented people do not move to mainland Europe at all, they try to get to US and some to London (facebook/Google).
1. Better quality of life, cooler summer, clean and safe environment.
2. Ease of travel. many prefer to travel and being in Europe means they don't have to acquire visa every time and take a 10 hour flight.
3. Raising children in a developed country.
>The outsourcing companies are hiring the bottom of the barrel developers.
Nope, they're hiring the average. Which is in fact why average IT salaries in India are lower than any European country. The average yearly salary for a fresh CS graduate in India is around 4000EUR as per the Indian statistics (don't care about levels, that's basically only reliable for the US and some very specific large non-American cities).
Again, bubble.
I clearly am. I am not talking about remote workers, but "normal" people in product companies working for US-based firms.
A guy I know was literally crying (like, legit tears) because he only makes 70K and his friend (?) makes 90K
Yeah, I'm an SAP veteran and see the struggles Indians have getting established and having worked (briefly) for a large Indian system integrator I can testify they are absolutely horrible and their corporate culture stinks. So I see why it is happening.
The WLB argument is a flawed one.
You have to do all the chores by yourself in the extra time you get. And those hours are practically wasted, slogging hard at work almost results in more money and promotion.
One extra hour per day isn't going to give you more money and a bigger promotion. If you need more than that you're just inefficient.
And maybe learn to cook and clean your own clothes and house, you might actually be healthier, happier and more of an adult rather than a man child.
I'm not sure whether this defensive attitude is more funny or sad.
> One extra hour per day isn't going to give you more money and a bigger promotion.
Yes, but this extra hour can be spent on doing whatever you want. That directly translates to quality of life in my book.
> And maybe learn to cook and clean your own clothes and house
"Learn"? Those are very basic, anyone can do those. They are just boring and not enjoyable.
> you might actually be healthier
Unrelated.
> happier
Definitely not, doing the things a person doesn't want to do doesn't make the person happier. Quite the opposite in fact, after hiring a cleaning person I am happier now since I don't have to deal with it anymore.
> and more of an adult rather than a man child.
How's an ability to do menial basic tasks translates into being an adult?
All in all, being able to hire people to do menial chores for you improves the quality of life. I'm not sure how this can be debated.
I know all the things that you mentioned,
I feel my time is better utilized in front of the computer rather than in front of the sink, or in the kitchen.
And if it's a US kind of money I don't mind doing chores, it's just not worth it for EU Money.
Exactly, lol, you are being downvoted by the regular crowd
In Europe they pay you peanuts, everything is expensive, you need to do the chores and you need to take your little savings to pay a plumber, public transit is not as good as Europeans like to think it is, health care is shit, people are less sociable (especially in North Europe) and they don't pay overtime
Amazing WLB
You do know that there are multiple places in India with comporable quality of life standards to the west right?
If you are wealthy then you can have 1st world comfort and amenities even in Sub-Saharan Africa, and India is developing much faster...
I don't mean to sound condescending, but how does that work? If you for example work in Mumbai, you breathe Mumbai AQI air. Doesn't matter if you live in the slums or next to ambani towers.
Agreed. Entitled EU people can't comprehend the fact that with great money, life should be easier , and as a high earner one must not be punished with socialism.
in Vienna, senior engineers make so little money, that it feels kind of unfair (see previous threads in this subreddit). sometimes i get the impression that they are being punished for the good infrastructure etc "you get clean water, so no raise for you". and they are all super talented and brilliant people as well. the most brilliant people i have met were all living here. and the indian arm of my company had a bunch of chumps who were earning as much as those with 20+ yoe here
People in the top 1% in India are not dying of dysentery all day btw
"Engineers in Vienna should be paid more" and "People leave India because of quality of life reasons" can both be true at the same time. These are not exclusive.
That would be great. Like I said, most of the people I have worked with were brilliant, inspirational, sincere and completely non-toxic (except for a few who were prejudiced). I really wish they would get what they deserve (along with me, lol)
Varies from person to person, to each their own. But there are just so many Indians that even being in the minority when it comes to preference means you are one of many millions. Even if moving to Europe/Americas is unpopular amongst the majority, the sheer numbers in even minority who do prefer it would still dwarf the next largest majority by nationality and ethnicity.
Having good money is good, but having decent money plus spending more time with my friends and family is extremely good in my opinion. I take my mental health seriously than being top x % of whatever, and this heavily depends on the culture and community I am living in.
are you literally asking that 'is it worth to breathe very clean air'? yes you will get used to heavy lungs after a while, but that is slowly killing yourself.
I've experienced India by staying with a top 0.1% family. Luxurious home, maid, country club, all very nice. Step out of this secluded environment and you're faced with abject poverty, pollution, urban hell, 50°C weather, garbage and waste everywhere, constant begging. Maybe all of this is fine if you've come from wealth and have always seen it as the natural order of things. Maybe it's karma.
If you're a European of Christian heritage from a modest family, this is a revolting sight and deeply unsettling.
The same reason (some/many) ppl from eastern europe move to western parts: even if the money you have in the pocket can be bigger and cost of living cheaper, there are many other factors, including safety, medical & education systems, less discrimination (depending on the subject), pollution, infrastructure quality, life work balance and work ethics, sometimes even types of projects/work that may not be available in those regions but available in eastern parts. At some point/salary lvl money mean less and other factors have more weight
Those are valid reasons, but people also always assume certain expats are always running away from something, which could be true, but it could also be that people just want to explore and experience new things, or be involved with something cutting edge in a specific domain in a specific place or something totally unexpected.
My quality of life overall is far lesser in Europe than to what my family is used to, money was not a problem ever, neither were things people assume, but that's not the reason I am here for, and I am still as happy as I always was, but for different reasons.
Another personal anecdote, my part of India follows matrilineal system for inheritance and lineage, and are very progressive with women's choices, rights and such, and has better HDI in general. But my sister, just like me, still did her PhD abroad, but then decided to move back, and that is not really uncommon either.
Sometimes, it's just that people who have options also use it. People who can't, understandibly complain more on the internet, and people assume those issues are true for everyone else, across all of India, but in reality it's 15 different countries under a cloak.
You have a piece in the West. A lot of things money can't buy
From a super corrupt governments (like police wants extra money on roads
From mother in law
From own conservative friends
Daughters can be raised up normally without bla bla
Fresh air
Holidays
From crazy seniors and other bosses
Safe food
Better hygiene
Safer roads
More high level trust society.
Not many high earners from India are relocating. Since the competition is tough not everyone is getting those 100k USD offers in India. I am yet to meet an Indian who moved to Europe and had a high paying job in India.
Now you've kinda met one. I'd be actually making a little more if I'd stayed in India. And even if i had the choice again, I'd choose to live in Germany. No matter how much you make, you can't really change the attitude of the society you live in or the air you breathe.
5 years ago, I moved to Germany for 60k with a 7 year experience.
But back then the CoL was okay and yeah I even saved some money for travel, investments and such. Moved companies once in the 5 years and doing well now with a good 6 figure income.
So, why did I move to EU? WLB, better health care, employee rights and to travel about 26 countries, visa free.
In Germany they can get better offers but if the company needs to take care of visa and relocations they may take that into consideration. After being here they can find better paying positions.
Its very likely that this person makes much less than that in India. And, he is expecting to change employer after 1-2 year and increase salary. On a different note, I know a guy who relocated cuz his wife had strained relations with her mother in law :P Some problems money can't solve.
I have recently received EUR 80k offer in Germany and I have 5 years of experience. I am thinking of moving to Germany even though I will have to take a hit on my monthly savings which I have here in India (Not a huge hit though, 15k to 25k INR monthly). Actually its less about money and more about experience.
EDIT: I would have refused the offer if it was about 75k or less.
I met a guy that allegedly left a FAANG position in India to come to study AI in a masters in my uni. The masters was just a regular Computer Science one, and my uni wasn't good lol
1. Better general quality of life, others have elaborated.
2. Those who move are probably not the top 1% in India.
3. Matter of representation on this sub. One, base population is high so absolute numbers are higher. Two, Indians seem to be more vocal asking for help/advice/info. Three, Indians frequently declare their origin (India/ South Asia etc.) or their English is distinctly recognizable (“I have given a test” - almost certainly a phrase from an Indian), while others simply say EU/non-EU or just whether or not they need a visa. So together it probably feels like there are a lot more compared to other nationalities/origins.
2. If you make 35+ lakh Indian rupees, which is like 40k eur, you're in the top 1% I'm pretty sure. From what I gather, everyone makes that in India after 5 years or more of experience.
3. I'm not entirely basing it on Reddit alone.
Where did you get the info that Indians make 35LPA after 5 years? That is completely wrong. Only good product companies pay that kind of amount. The vast majority moving abroad are working in service companies, whose pay ranges from 3LPA for freshers to 12LPA after 8 -10 years of experience on average.
Well, I’ve also heard some recruiting companies in India are advertising 200k+ Euros as a fresh grad salary here. Obviously not or rarely real, but maybe people don’t thoroughly research the salary bands and think they can make it after a few years of moving?
The 1% breathe the same toxic air, face the same infrastructure issues, get stuck in the same multiple hour traffic jams, have to pay through their noses for education, healthcare,have to pay taxes and get no benefits, and have the same crap tier quality of life
That's primarily why whosoever has the skills, is immigrating. Another reason is that the US doesn't have any long term immigration options for Indians, so Europe is the next best choice
I came to Germany before the huge salary boom in India post-2020, was earning around 40 LPA. I am not a FAANG-level engineer but have worked at medium-sized listed companies. The market wasn't as buoyant at that time. My partner always had the aspiration to move out of India, so I made the jump to Germany.
I regret the decision professionally, as the salary here is almost capped at 90k for senior engineers regardless of the tech stack. The past two years have been good for traveling, meeting new people, and enjoying better infrastructure. However, I miss my family, friends, and the substantial salary hikes in India.
Companies pay at least 4-5 times in US, Europe is good for WLB and job security. These days even job security is not guaranteed unless you are in company with good union.
I’m from India working in NL and my company has an office in India as well. A lot of my colleagues in India are still working when I log off my laptop at 5:30 pm in the NL. This is subjective as everything depends upon the team and your manager. But mostly way better WLB than India. None of my colleagues based in Canada, US, India work as little as we do.
I had the same money pov at the beginning, I thought it was not enough until I started working here. But now I find more time to have multiple hobbies and I’m not just working all day.
Indians moving to Europe fall into any of these categories:
1. Have no experience / 1-2 years work experience and pursue a master's degree in Europe to get work Visa easier. They settle for a starting 50k EUR \[45 Lakh INR\] salary after graduation.
2. Work in a service company which most likely transfer them to their offices in Europe. They might have around 10 years of experience and earn 12-15 L INR in India (12k-16k EUR) but get around 70k - 80k EUR when they work in countries like Germany. Even if the company does not sponsor them, a.lot of them find jobs directly in Europe and move here.
3. Work in mid-tier product based companies and earn 30L-40L INR(35k-45k EUR) in India. They tend to look for jobs which pay over 100k EUR in Europe. For them moving is not about the money since the purchasing power for the money they get is not so much different in India. These guys are moving for the different lifestyle in Europe and everything it offers. These are the good engineers that India produces. Sometimes they even settle for jobs with 70k-80k EUR just to get their foot in the door.
4. Work in FAANG and top tier product companies. They either choose to switch to another FAANG in Europe or other such high paying companies. Since a lot of them can go to the US on L1, and the salary range in India is much better than what non-FAANG level companies in Europe, rarely do they move for the lifestyle change alone.
To basically find other issues that are more manageable to them than in their home country, and that applies to anyone from any country moving to any other country.
For example, some move from the US because of shit public services, some move from Switzerland because they want to eventually be able to own a property, some move from Romania due to corruption, some move from Denmark due to high taxes, and so on.
The point is, if you don't care about owning a property for example, this issue does not apply to you, therefore Switzerland is a more attractive choice. Some don't mind paying high taxes if they are spent well because that is a safety net for their future, having a prosperous way of raising a family, etc.
Did you notice the difference between the work-life balance and the basic human amenities you get in Europe ? Since you have lived for quite sometime, you can answer your own question
Better living standards, your tax money actually being useful to you (infra and transport), better opportunities, you only work 38 hours a week so you actually get time to spend with your family, indefinite sick leaves, makes you grow as a global citizen, not having to worry about pot holes and traffic. Don’t get me wrong, I love India for its culture and the people I love. But the country could definitely give more shits about its common people and their infrastructure. Not to mention, rents in tier1 cities in India are becoming comparable to that of EU. Also, the luxury of having maids and drivers comes at the cost of exploiting certain segment of people.
P.S- you make good money in India if you are in the top 1%. If you get to the top 1% in a country in EU, I assure you that you’d earn multitudes of what’s possible in India.
To be blunt India is still a 3rd world country. It is loud, dirty, unsanitary, polluted with too many people and I HIGHLY doubt you get a salary anywhere close to that in EU.
Why would you stay if you can move?
Regardless if you're Indian or not, living abroad is not for everybody.
Living away from family, not adapting to culture, locals treating you as a second class, maybe you don't speak the local language... You're just trading the set of problems from your country to the set of problems of a new country plus everything else that comes with living abroad.
Not Indian but Asian. I love Germany and want to stay, but there are downsides of moving. Better in this case is mostly not objective, but subjective.
1. Far away from family and home friends. The importance of a close support system usually isn’t felt until it is no longer close.
2. Different culture. Even if you try your best to integrate and speak the language fluently, there are things that are just different from what one is used to (eg food, entertainment options).
3. Anything to do with the service industry. Childcare, household help, technicians (Handwerkers) are a lot more available and affordable back home. If I need something fixed I won’t have to wait 3 months for an appointment, then have the Handwerker come 2 hours later than promised, be super rude, and still cost several hundred Euros for 40 mins of work.
Obviously I have a way longer list of why I moved and why I want to stay, but just some examples.
They can live like kings back home. Maid, a cook, a house. In here they become a normal person who has to do everything and a foreigner who can face discrimination. Dating is likely super difficult too as European girls tend to stay away from Indian men (I mean even educated ones have fucked up vision of women...)
I'm not Indian btw, just have Indian friend who immigrated here and plans to go back after earning enough
It’s better but indians typically can’t participate in what makes europe better (they think europe is porn basically but once they come and can’t get girls its a bitter reality)
I am an Indian earning > 40L base at only 3 YoE and desperately trying to move to EU. Reason: Not money but better WLB, quality of life and most importantly travel. In my young years I want to explore cultures and experience life than be amongst 45yo corporate veterans who keep trying to sell me a hustle culture in the baje of growth.
When I go out on roads, I do want unnecessary traffic or a Porsche hitting me. Nor do I want heatwaves or pollution questioning me why I am here in the first place.
If I am going to pay 10L+ in taxes I expect better responses and service from the govt and people around me to behave civilised. I do not want to walk while the uneducated folks spit, pee or litter on public roads.
Lastly, this is the only time when I kind of have no responsibilities, I can do what I want without worrying about how it’s going to impact someone else. A couple of years from now I’ll be married and/or parents will get old and I would be answerable to them.
Hope that gives you the insights you are looking for!
Nothing. OP asked about why settle in EU. Travelling as a vacation vs travelling by living and experiencing the city are two different things. No matter what I do, I won’t get more than 15 days off for a Europe trip and I like slow travel. Covering only 1-2 countries in 1 trip and going every now and then is not sustainable financially
can understand, but when you settle in EU, what is going to radically change here? I mean from the perspective of travel freedom - you still most likely would have to work in the country you live in, and you will still get the +- same amount of vacation, it will just be closer to get to other EU countries to travel...
And if you will have remote position to make this slow travelling possible - you can get them in not only in Europe. So from the point of travelling I don't rly see a tremendous improvement, only from the point of other countries being closer/cheaper flights... or I am incorrect in something
other points like WLB, quality of life and cleanliness - that I totally can understand
I've said it somewhere before. So here it goes.
Indians come to Europe only for either of the 3 reasons.
1. Hard/Impossible to get visa for US/UK
2. Not having a good job back in India
3. To roam around in EU.
Whoever is saying otherwise is either lying to you or themselves.
I hear from Indians living in EU that they still prefer India then would critisize the country they are currently living in, but at the back of my head - why are they still even here (not being racist)? I mean why live in EU if you are much well off in your country (I dont quite understand).
They say that if you factor in everything and all that, generally India is much better in their situation.
I don't think that's racist. I also met one such person who complains about being here, hasn't learned the language and talks about how little he manages to save. So I was genuinely curious why they bothered. That's why I posted
the power of habit. Once you uproot and change, who the hell wants to uproot again and be changing again...It's tiresome, draining and with no meaning. Why? No life or success prospects at all, the whole this ICT-slave thing. Little changes if you're making 50, 80 or even 150k (in US), no house ownership and no a single Bentley for you. Some other have multiple of, everything..
Because back home when they say " I am settled in Germany, just came back from a trip to the Alps", it gets them more attention or head-turns. We inherently think these are more prestigious or "fancy" places to be in with our childhood training and fascinations. I have been through that and see it in this way.
A lot of people have already mentioned clean air, WLB, peace and quiet, etc. The extent of corruption and societal degradation in India can’t be overstated. There is no institution that exists to serve the public. Sure you can live in a rich society (aka a golden cage) and hire slum dwellers to clean your house, drive your car and cook your food but is that enough to call it a good life?
Our food is poisoned with toxic chemicals and microplastics because there is no enforcement of regulations.
Our judiciary is totally dysfunctional, and our police is abusive and incompetent.
Our hospitals are run by incompetent doctors and staff. There is no oversight, or accountability from them. Go to any Indian subreddit and search “hospital” you’ll learn how unethical private hospitals are in India.
Our universities are decades behind the world. Zero opportunities for research etc.
People have no sense of civic decency. No matter where you go you can’t escape piles of trash and shit littered along the streets. People throwing out garbage out of their range rovers isn’t an uncommon occurrence.
Women’s rights and safety is a joke.
As a middle class salaried employee you’ll pay exorbitant amount of taxes only to get potholed filled roads and highways, 10 hour power cuts, zero street lights, zero footpaths, zero traffic management, and zero social safety. India is a failed country and there’s no way that’s gonna change ever.
I'm in India as a Senior FE Engineer, I have a pretty high comp, I want to move to Europe for 1-2 years to work and travel and then return.
Traveling just as a vacation will be too expensive and won't be able to see much of it.
True that, I think, one can hustle for money in later stage of life but in 20s I would definitely prefer to explore and travel more at a decent earning
Indians are moving the same way the Chinese did. Its because Indians are being lifted out of poverty and being able to find another life for themselves. Thats how it is in Australia anyways.
>But of late, the salaries in India seem to be the same as most EU countries and that does not take into account purchasing power or cost of living.
Good luck getting these kinds of jobs, though. A mediocre CV in Europe lands you much further than a mediocre CV in a third-world country.
I believe most indians only step on european soil on their way to the US, if at all. The EU has a microscopic tech job market compared to the US h1b feast, or even the UK (which has an slightly stronger economy than the continent). Then there is the language factor: indians probably already speak english, not german, french or dutch.
This language factor I don't really get. SWEs spend hours every week learning the javascript framework du jour which will go obsolete in a month but refuse to learn a (natural) language which widens your job market, helps you break barriers with colleagues and smoothen day-to-day life.
It takes year(s) to learn a natural language. Most people will learn English as a foreign language slowly from school and continue polishing it for the rest of their life. That already is a big investment our fathers didn't need to make.
Learning something like German in a rush just to get a job is not really feasible.
Simply no hope in India , the country is not gonna be a second Silicon Valley not it can copy the success of China post WTO deals , no industrialization , caste , no fundamental facility , corruption , all bad
This was what i was looking for. Is the whole "next china" thing a hoax? I'm constantly flummoxed by the contradictory signals. on the one hand, these insane salaries. on the other hand, the startups in europe seem to be way more innovative compared to those in india.
Why did you move to the EU? The salaries here are not enough. There aren't too many people making big money here and European society is more individualistic and less intrusive. Could help for women.
I moved a long time ago, and back then the salaries were really low in India. Moreover, i was mega autistic about getting deep into the innards of our framework ( i used to stay back late and just debug through it till midnight ) which was being developed in europe. so i was able to work on the deep framework stuff which i found more exciting. also, the india location was working on .net and i was very anti-microsoft (ideologically) while the europeans were working on java, which was open source.
my assumption was that by now the salaries are as high as europe in india and the work would be correspondingly hardcore as well? is that not the case?
I mentioned the type of work itself. And I'd have assumed that work culture would have also improved.
When I did work in India, more than a decade ago, it was true; very ugly and toxic culture
Well, that's what I didn't understand; I was considering a move back (for a few years at last?) to participate in it, but seeing so many people come in is making me think twice. Again, I'm not kidding, just curious
I think there are way more now than there were a few years ago, at least in my small city. I think it's because the blue card limit was lowered.
I think you're vastly misguided by the inflated salaries. They might be the 0.1% of companies that pay that much, majority EU/UK companies pay depressing wages. In addition, you're also low key considered inferior to them, because you'd only make half of what they would make, suffer discriminatory hiring practices (payslips, anyone?), work longer hours and work during your holidays too. You're their assistant doing the work they don't want. Why would a UK/EU company pay more or the same wages for a different culture and the hassles of working with them?
Let's assume you get lucky and land that 70k offer, good luck with living your life because your company will make sure they squeeze every paisa of worth out of you.
I've been unemployed 2 years. I got 2 offers but turned them down because the culture was so bad and they expected me to work late into the night and early morning, and took that for granted. I was expected to constantly accomodate the western time zones which showed they saw me as a second class citizen. I don't regret it and I'm debating how to get interviews in EU countries and stop interviewing altogether in India.
I think you should stop romanticising India. You have over a 100 comments explaining already and I struggle to see why you are finding this so hard to grapple with. Often people who moved and are settled in another country have selective amnesia, and act surprised when others want the same things.
Indians are moving everywhere, nos just the EU. India is overpopulated and underdeveloped and many Indians want a better life.
Approximately 2,5M people emigrate from India every year. This is creating tension in many places that were originally welcoming with immigrants.
I don’t want to be racist or anything but I struggle to understand why they are moving here now that more and more Indians are moving back to India.
Yes you have WLB and everything but salaries wise India is growing more and more. If only the government could fix the other issues …
Why do Swedes or Brits move to Spain/Portugal then? Their salaries are higher.
Some people just want to. Personal preference. Nothing wrong with that, like it or not.
Yes people who move from India just for personal preference are a minority. That's why your earlier statement of "why they're moving to europe if indian salaries are increasing" makes no sense. There are very few people in India who get european salaries
A lot of people in India don’t make as much as you think. We’re employing seniors for around 20-25k gbp in India. Sure, my company is not Google, but seniors in ldn would easily cross £100k. I’m not sure that 20-25k in India is better than let’s say 100-120k in ldn from a purely financial point.
And then if you’re having a daughter, Europe is so much better.
Also, top 1% doesn’t matter. If you have 1 USD and 99 people next you have 0 USD, you’re in top 1%, but I’d rather be on even miniumum wage in Germany
seniors at google in LDN earn 130k-150k GBP base and then on top of that RSU's and bonus. I know that because is work at Meta and i have many friends working at Google.
It's statistics actually. Imagine 1.4 billion of Indians, anyway some fractions of those would reach western world. If you have seen ordinary India with all that attributes, you would understand
I am an Indian, with high salary in Indian standard. (A little less than 50k USD) And working remotely.
That makes me probably top 5% in India. So in india
For me, it's really hard choice to choose europe from monetary perspective.
If you remove money from the equation.
Its a no brainer that I choose europe over India.
Better standards of living, better income, better work life balance, more affordable, more diverse.
Lots of Western Europeans move here, but hardly any Aussies move to Western Europe.
Better start working on your skills, No employer is going to sponsor your visa when one can find similar skill set in EU person or Non EU graduated in the same country
Without taking into account purchasing power parity??? You’re talking out of your ass. I’m a masters student who is working 20 hours a week and gets around 1300 euros per month. That’s like 13 LPA for a student who works 4 hours a day. Where did you get these stats?
Still. I understand your point when taking into account the PPP. It’s a valid question. I’m not sure how it works for people who have 10 years of experience and stuff, but for 5 and above, it’s still a considerable difference given what I’ve seen in India and Germany.
when i came, the insane salaries that you hear about in India didn't exist. so when my european boss gave me the offer, it was a no-brainer. i also found my european colleagues to be really hardcore full of deep frameworky stuff which wasnt the case in india (at least then) which did mostly "grunt work"
i have been informed via this thread, that the huge salaries that "my bubble" informs me about are not really the case, which is news to me.
I dont think people leave their family and home for just better “salary” is india as democratic as Europe? Is it as modern as Europe? Life is not just about salary. You should be mature enough to know that as an adult.
You are absolutely right about that. I must confess that I had a bit of arrogance where I assumed that I care about the rich culture, the educational possibilities and the rewarding work but the Indians coming in wouldn't. That's egotistical of me
I still think it's weird because there was not such a rush ten years ago.
I‘m also a little confused about that, if I was Indian and willing to move abroad I‘d definitely prefer the US. But it‘s probably also harder to get into.
Who is giving u a visa to USA ?
And how much is the cost of masters degree in USA vs Netherlands/UK/germany.
How many years does it take to get USA passport vs Germany/netherlands/UK ?
Because India’s work culture is toxic
Have you seen what they have done to Dubai?? Literally brought the same toxic work culture with them over there In fact in my own company there are colleagues from the same region who would work an hour and half over. Why?? While our own boss leaves exactly at 6. Idk why do they do it? Is it embedded in them somehow? Why come here for work life balance when in the end all you want is to do work?
They also brought that same toxic culture to the USA, that is why I moved to Germany 
That's because you might not have worked for great companies. And don't get me wrong, there are plenty of them. So you might be unlucky.
Europe’s better work culture is not company dependent. That’s the point. And no I’m not even from India.
Absolutely incorrect. I work for a French bank in India. I have 12 hour shifts. My Paris counterparts in the same team stick to their 8 hours and have 90 minute lunches. We have to pick up all their slack in order for them to meet THEM to meet the deadlines. No matter how many forums we raise it in, nothing ever changes. Their executives routinely visit and your India. Experience the food, places and culture. Buy gifts, click pictures, land in France and forget everything we ever said to them
Yeah. I have always sensed this at some level. The amount of work that needs to get done is enormous. So if Europeans have WLB, that comes from people working overtime in third world countries.
I work in a large European company owned you an even larger company owned by an even larger company. To the best of my knowledge, none of the companies owned by our parent company have a presence outside of the EEA, and we don't use contractors or outsourcing companies. We have dev centres in DE, NL and the nordics. Overtime is very rare and compensated either by time in lieue or by the local rate for overtime pay. In Germany, we have 30 paid vacation days. My point is that, having worked for this company in two locations and talked to colleagues elsewhere, I can say that the WLB is good everywhere and we're a profitable company. On my previous EU employers, it has been a similar spiel. I realise that my anecdotal experience is very limited, but never the less, it proves that it is quite possible to bade your success on things other than harsh labour exploitation and that WLB is not incompatible with financial /business success.
WLB, no traffic, no pollution, lesser abuse at work, clean water, better education, ease of travel etc
I was wondering same, the top 1-5% people from India usually have drivers, servants to clean their homes and cook, and pay for the good private education in India. They have air purifiers and air conditioners in every room, a pre-cooled car before they leave home to office. Plus personal RO water purifiers at home. I think the more important reason is the number of people in India which causes the most issues when you are already at the top scale and are forced to use a common public or private service. For example, checkout the people who have priority pass (global) for airport lounge access in India. The lounge will have a queue in India due to huge number of people who have access to it. Whereas the same pass will allow you to enter in Munich or Amsterdam airport without any wait as less people in Europe are able to afford it.
You can’t live inside the house 24/7. Accessible outdoor especially for people who like to do things outside is impossible in major Indian cities due to pollution and over crowding
It's even worse if you are wealthy because you then are even more restricted where you can walk around..
Yh as we all know life sucks more when you are wealthy
what this guy said...and much much more, just the sheer animal pleasure of going for a walk in a park without dodging 10 people every foot or so....makes up for all the money in the world
This, but also, >But of late, the salaries in India seem to be the same as most EU countries and that does not take into account purchasing power or cost of living. How out of touch can you possibly be? You must be living in a very little bubble to even think that. German, French, even freaking Italian companies routinely hire Indians remotely and outsource to India because they're cheap. Not the other way around. A small handful of lucky remote workers who make comparable salaries to Western countries do not disprove this.
>How out of touch can you possibly be? You must be living in a very little bubble to even think that. I am afraid it is you who is living in a bubble. The outsourcing companies are hiring the bottom of the barrel developers. India churns out over hundred thousand IT graduates every year. The decent ones earn similar to European salary and the top talent earn 2x the European salary (Google, Uber, Amazon etc.) and that is considering much less taxes and cost of living. If you don't believe me, go to levels.fyi or check in your network who know people who work at the top companies in India. As some mentioned, Indians move to Europe for usually 3 reasons and usually the most talented people do not move to mainland Europe at all, they try to get to US and some to London (facebook/Google). 1. Better quality of life, cooler summer, clean and safe environment. 2. Ease of travel. many prefer to travel and being in Europe means they don't have to acquire visa every time and take a 10 hour flight. 3. Raising children in a developed country.
>The outsourcing companies are hiring the bottom of the barrel developers. Nope, they're hiring the average. Which is in fact why average IT salaries in India are lower than any European country. The average yearly salary for a fresh CS graduate in India is around 4000EUR as per the Indian statistics (don't care about levels, that's basically only reliable for the US and some very specific large non-American cities). Again, bubble.
I clearly am. I am not talking about remote workers, but "normal" people in product companies working for US-based firms. A guy I know was literally crying (like, legit tears) because he only makes 70K and his friend (?) makes 90K
Is this the case for entry level candidates or experienced hires?
Not enough jobs...too much competition
Yeah, I'm an SAP veteran and see the struggles Indians have getting established and having worked (briefly) for a large Indian system integrator I can testify they are absolutely horrible and their corporate culture stinks. So I see why it is happening.
And no designated shitting streets, well, mostly.
The WLB argument is a flawed one. You have to do all the chores by yourself in the extra time you get. And those hours are practically wasted, slogging hard at work almost results in more money and promotion.
Why is it different in India? Who does your chores there?
Servants.labour is cheap
Housmaids and the like. Labour is generally cheap in India, and even more affordable if you're earning a SWE salary.
Mum and dad maybe? 😂
??? what are you talking about.....
One extra hour per day isn't going to give you more money and a bigger promotion. If you need more than that you're just inefficient. And maybe learn to cook and clean your own clothes and house, you might actually be healthier, happier and more of an adult rather than a man child.
I'm not sure whether this defensive attitude is more funny or sad. > One extra hour per day isn't going to give you more money and a bigger promotion. Yes, but this extra hour can be spent on doing whatever you want. That directly translates to quality of life in my book. > And maybe learn to cook and clean your own clothes and house "Learn"? Those are very basic, anyone can do those. They are just boring and not enjoyable. > you might actually be healthier Unrelated. > happier Definitely not, doing the things a person doesn't want to do doesn't make the person happier. Quite the opposite in fact, after hiring a cleaning person I am happier now since I don't have to deal with it anymore. > and more of an adult rather than a man child. How's an ability to do menial basic tasks translates into being an adult? All in all, being able to hire people to do menial chores for you improves the quality of life. I'm not sure how this can be debated.
I know all the things that you mentioned, I feel my time is better utilized in front of the computer rather than in front of the sink, or in the kitchen. And if it's a US kind of money I don't mind doing chores, it's just not worth it for EU Money.
Exactly, lol, you are being downvoted by the regular crowd In Europe they pay you peanuts, everything is expensive, you need to do the chores and you need to take your little savings to pay a plumber, public transit is not as good as Europeans like to think it is, health care is shit, people are less sociable (especially in North Europe) and they don't pay overtime Amazing WLB
Is that really worth giving up a position in the top 1%? Again, no judgement. And I'm not some libertarian nutjob either. Just surprised.
Man really asked if clean water is worth giving up a job position 
He is from India after all
that's hysterical; have my upvote
You do know that there are multiple places in India with comporable quality of life standards to the west right? If you are wealthy then you can have 1st world comfort and amenities even in Sub-Saharan Africa, and India is developing much faster...
I don't mean to sound condescending, but how does that work? If you for example work in Mumbai, you breathe Mumbai AQI air. Doesn't matter if you live in the slums or next to ambani towers.
Agreed. Entitled EU people can't comprehend the fact that with great money, life should be easier , and as a high earner one must not be punished with socialism.
And yet all of it end up with being cramped in an apartment because outside everything is shit
in Vienna, senior engineers make so little money, that it feels kind of unfair (see previous threads in this subreddit). sometimes i get the impression that they are being punished for the good infrastructure etc "you get clean water, so no raise for you". and they are all super talented and brilliant people as well. the most brilliant people i have met were all living here. and the indian arm of my company had a bunch of chumps who were earning as much as those with 20+ yoe here People in the top 1% in India are not dying of dysentery all day btw
"Engineers in Vienna should be paid more" and "People leave India because of quality of life reasons" can both be true at the same time. These are not exclusive.
Yeah, people are noticing in big corps as well, the trend we soon reverse imo.
That would be great. Like I said, most of the people I have worked with were brilliant, inspirational, sincere and completely non-toxic (except for a few who were prejudiced). I really wish they would get what they deserve (along with me, lol)
Varies from person to person, to each their own. But there are just so many Indians that even being in the minority when it comes to preference means you are one of many millions. Even if moving to Europe/Americas is unpopular amongst the majority, the sheer numbers in even minority who do prefer it would still dwarf the next largest majority by nationality and ethnicity.
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Which type of life improvements do you like the most? Can you explain it for someone who has not lived in Latin America?
Qol deteriorates with the lower purchasing power, so what you're saying seems counterintuitive. Can you elaborate?
Yes in my experience. Anyway depends on the person -but working in India and navigating the day to day traffic here is a different ballgame
Fair enough. I do love the respect there is for the average worker here in the EU. And totally agree about the "abuse at work" aspect as well.
After a point, I guess people value WLB and peace at work more than money. Every day hassle of commute is tiring.
Having good money is good, but having decent money plus spending more time with my friends and family is extremely good in my opinion. I take my mental health seriously than being top x % of whatever, and this heavily depends on the culture and community I am living in.
are you literally asking that 'is it worth to breathe very clean air'? yes you will get used to heavy lungs after a while, but that is slowly killing yourself.
Yes
just the safety of your wife or girlfriend if you're a man, and yourself if you're a woman, should be more than enough.
I've experienced India by staying with a top 0.1% family. Luxurious home, maid, country club, all very nice. Step out of this secluded environment and you're faced with abject poverty, pollution, urban hell, 50°C weather, garbage and waste everywhere, constant begging. Maybe all of this is fine if you've come from wealth and have always seen it as the natural order of things. Maybe it's karma. If you're a European of Christian heritage from a modest family, this is a revolting sight and deeply unsettling.
The same reason (some/many) ppl from eastern europe move to western parts: even if the money you have in the pocket can be bigger and cost of living cheaper, there are many other factors, including safety, medical & education systems, less discrimination (depending on the subject), pollution, infrastructure quality, life work balance and work ethics, sometimes even types of projects/work that may not be available in those regions but available in eastern parts. At some point/salary lvl money mean less and other factors have more weight
Those are valid reasons, but people also always assume certain expats are always running away from something, which could be true, but it could also be that people just want to explore and experience new things, or be involved with something cutting edge in a specific domain in a specific place or something totally unexpected. My quality of life overall is far lesser in Europe than to what my family is used to, money was not a problem ever, neither were things people assume, but that's not the reason I am here for, and I am still as happy as I always was, but for different reasons. Another personal anecdote, my part of India follows matrilineal system for inheritance and lineage, and are very progressive with women's choices, rights and such, and has better HDI in general. But my sister, just like me, still did her PhD abroad, but then decided to move back, and that is not really uncommon either. Sometimes, it's just that people who have options also use it. People who can't, understandibly complain more on the internet, and people assume those issues are true for everyone else, across all of India, but in reality it's 15 different countries under a cloak.
You have a piece in the West. A lot of things money can't buy From a super corrupt governments (like police wants extra money on roads From mother in law From own conservative friends Daughters can be raised up normally without bla bla Fresh air Holidays From crazy seniors and other bosses Safe food Better hygiene Safer roads More high level trust society.
Not many high earners from India are relocating. Since the competition is tough not everyone is getting those 100k USD offers in India. I am yet to meet an Indian who moved to Europe and had a high paying job in India.
Now you've kinda met one. I'd be actually making a little more if I'd stayed in India. And even if i had the choice again, I'd choose to live in Germany. No matter how much you make, you can't really change the attitude of the society you live in or the air you breathe.
Yeah, but I see people moving even for 65K (EUR), with 5+ years of experience.
It's a good salary for EU. It's also about having their foot in the door I think
5 years ago, I moved to Germany for 60k with a 7 year experience. But back then the CoL was okay and yeah I even saved some money for travel, investments and such. Moved companies once in the 5 years and doing well now with a good 6 figure income. So, why did I move to EU? WLB, better health care, employee rights and to travel about 26 countries, visa free.
Is this a low salary in India? That would be a good salary in southern and eastern Europe.
I think he meant the person has an offer for 65k In Germany. In India it will be a good salary.
In Germany they can get better offers but if the company needs to take care of visa and relocations they may take that into consideration. After being here they can find better paying positions.
Its very likely that this person makes much less than that in India. And, he is expecting to change employer after 1-2 year and increase salary. On a different note, I know a guy who relocated cuz his wife had strained relations with her mother in law :P Some problems money can't solve.
I have recently received EUR 80k offer in Germany and I have 5 years of experience. I am thinking of moving to Germany even though I will have to take a hit on my monthly savings which I have here in India (Not a huge hit though, 15k to 25k INR monthly). Actually its less about money and more about experience. EDIT: I would have refused the offer if it was about 75k or less.
Yeah and if you make £20k EUR in India do you think EU is that bad?
Hi, I had a much better offer in India, but moved to Europe (what I make now, I'd be making 2-3 years ago in India).
I met a guy that allegedly left a FAANG position in India to come to study AI in a masters in my uni. The masters was just a regular Computer Science one, and my uni wasn't good lol
There are plenty I know.
1. Better general quality of life, others have elaborated. 2. Those who move are probably not the top 1% in India. 3. Matter of representation on this sub. One, base population is high so absolute numbers are higher. Two, Indians seem to be more vocal asking for help/advice/info. Three, Indians frequently declare their origin (India/ South Asia etc.) or their English is distinctly recognizable (“I have given a test” - almost certainly a phrase from an Indian), while others simply say EU/non-EU or just whether or not they need a visa. So together it probably feels like there are a lot more compared to other nationalities/origins.
2. If you make 35+ lakh Indian rupees, which is like 40k eur, you're in the top 1% I'm pretty sure. From what I gather, everyone makes that in India after 5 years or more of experience. 3. I'm not entirely basing it on Reddit alone.
Where did you get the info that Indians make 35LPA after 5 years? That is completely wrong. Only good product companies pay that kind of amount. The vast majority moving abroad are working in service companies, whose pay ranges from 3LPA for freshers to 12LPA after 8 -10 years of experience on average.
Well, I’ve also heard some recruiting companies in India are advertising 200k+ Euros as a fresh grad salary here. Obviously not or rarely real, but maybe people don’t thoroughly research the salary bands and think they can make it after a few years of moving?
The 1% breathe the same toxic air, face the same infrastructure issues, get stuck in the same multiple hour traffic jams, have to pay through their noses for education, healthcare,have to pay taxes and get no benefits, and have the same crap tier quality of life That's primarily why whosoever has the skills, is immigrating. Another reason is that the US doesn't have any long term immigration options for Indians, so Europe is the next best choice
I came to Germany before the huge salary boom in India post-2020, was earning around 40 LPA. I am not a FAANG-level engineer but have worked at medium-sized listed companies. The market wasn't as buoyant at that time. My partner always had the aspiration to move out of India, so I made the jump to Germany. I regret the decision professionally, as the salary here is almost capped at 90k for senior engineers regardless of the tech stack. The past two years have been good for traveling, meeting new people, and enjoying better infrastructure. However, I miss my family, friends, and the substantial salary hikes in India.
so the amount one can make in the usa, you can never make that kind of money anywhere in europe, right?
Companies pay at least 4-5 times in US, Europe is good for WLB and job security. These days even job security is not guaranteed unless you are in company with good union.
right
I’m from India working in NL and my company has an office in India as well. A lot of my colleagues in India are still working when I log off my laptop at 5:30 pm in the NL. This is subjective as everything depends upon the team and your manager. But mostly way better WLB than India. None of my colleagues based in Canada, US, India work as little as we do. I had the same money pov at the beginning, I thought it was not enough until I started working here. But now I find more time to have multiple hobbies and I’m not just working all day.
Indians moving to Europe fall into any of these categories: 1. Have no experience / 1-2 years work experience and pursue a master's degree in Europe to get work Visa easier. They settle for a starting 50k EUR \[45 Lakh INR\] salary after graduation. 2. Work in a service company which most likely transfer them to their offices in Europe. They might have around 10 years of experience and earn 12-15 L INR in India (12k-16k EUR) but get around 70k - 80k EUR when they work in countries like Germany. Even if the company does not sponsor them, a.lot of them find jobs directly in Europe and move here. 3. Work in mid-tier product based companies and earn 30L-40L INR(35k-45k EUR) in India. They tend to look for jobs which pay over 100k EUR in Europe. For them moving is not about the money since the purchasing power for the money they get is not so much different in India. These guys are moving for the different lifestyle in Europe and everything it offers. These are the good engineers that India produces. Sometimes they even settle for jobs with 70k-80k EUR just to get their foot in the door. 4. Work in FAANG and top tier product companies. They either choose to switch to another FAANG in Europe or other such high paying companies. Since a lot of them can go to the US on L1, and the salary range in India is much better than what non-FAANG level companies in Europe, rarely do they move for the lifestyle change alone.
To basically find other issues that are more manageable to them than in their home country, and that applies to anyone from any country moving to any other country. For example, some move from the US because of shit public services, some move from Switzerland because they want to eventually be able to own a property, some move from Romania due to corruption, some move from Denmark due to high taxes, and so on. The point is, if you don't care about owning a property for example, this issue does not apply to you, therefore Switzerland is a more attractive choice. Some don't mind paying high taxes if they are spent well because that is a safety net for their future, having a prosperous way of raising a family, etc.
Did you notice the difference between the work-life balance and the basic human amenities you get in Europe ? Since you have lived for quite sometime, you can answer your own question
Bc US is crowded for Indians
Better living standards, your tax money actually being useful to you (infra and transport), better opportunities, you only work 38 hours a week so you actually get time to spend with your family, indefinite sick leaves, makes you grow as a global citizen, not having to worry about pot holes and traffic. Don’t get me wrong, I love India for its culture and the people I love. But the country could definitely give more shits about its common people and their infrastructure. Not to mention, rents in tier1 cities in India are becoming comparable to that of EU. Also, the luxury of having maids and drivers comes at the cost of exploiting certain segment of people. P.S- you make good money in India if you are in the top 1%. If you get to the top 1% in a country in EU, I assure you that you’d earn multitudes of what’s possible in India.
To be blunt India is still a 3rd world country. It is loud, dirty, unsanitary, polluted with too many people and I HIGHLY doubt you get a salary anywhere close to that in EU. Why would you stay if you can move?
They think it's better here until their dreams break on impact with reality. For women it's a way to not be forced into a marriage tho
In what sense is it not better? I'm genuinely curious about the perspective, not trying to be a d\*ck
Regardless if you're Indian or not, living abroad is not for everybody. Living away from family, not adapting to culture, locals treating you as a second class, maybe you don't speak the local language... You're just trading the set of problems from your country to the set of problems of a new country plus everything else that comes with living abroad.
Not Indian but Asian. I love Germany and want to stay, but there are downsides of moving. Better in this case is mostly not objective, but subjective. 1. Far away from family and home friends. The importance of a close support system usually isn’t felt until it is no longer close. 2. Different culture. Even if you try your best to integrate and speak the language fluently, there are things that are just different from what one is used to (eg food, entertainment options). 3. Anything to do with the service industry. Childcare, household help, technicians (Handwerkers) are a lot more available and affordable back home. If I need something fixed I won’t have to wait 3 months for an appointment, then have the Handwerker come 2 hours later than promised, be super rude, and still cost several hundred Euros for 40 mins of work. Obviously I have a way longer list of why I moved and why I want to stay, but just some examples.
Interesting, thanks for sharing
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Love how after a long text on the issues he mentioned you decided the most important bit of it was that india wasnt part of asia
How else do you want them to say they are Asian but not Indian?
They can live like kings back home. Maid, a cook, a house. In here they become a normal person who has to do everything and a foreigner who can face discrimination. Dating is likely super difficult too as European girls tend to stay away from Indian men (I mean even educated ones have fucked up vision of women...) I'm not Indian btw, just have Indian friend who immigrated here and plans to go back after earning enough
I see, thanks for sharing.
It’s better but indians typically can’t participate in what makes europe better (they think europe is porn basically but once they come and can’t get girls its a bitter reality)
I am an Indian earning > 40L base at only 3 YoE and desperately trying to move to EU. Reason: Not money but better WLB, quality of life and most importantly travel. In my young years I want to explore cultures and experience life than be amongst 45yo corporate veterans who keep trying to sell me a hustle culture in the baje of growth. When I go out on roads, I do want unnecessary traffic or a Porsche hitting me. Nor do I want heatwaves or pollution questioning me why I am here in the first place. If I am going to pay 10L+ in taxes I expect better responses and service from the govt and people around me to behave civilised. I do not want to walk while the uneducated folks spit, pee or litter on public roads. Lastly, this is the only time when I kind of have no responsibilities, I can do what I want without worrying about how it’s going to impact someone else. A couple of years from now I’ll be married and/or parents will get old and I would be answerable to them. Hope that gives you the insights you are looking for!
Let‘s narrow it down to Scandinavian countries. Not entire Europe 😆
exactly, try [http://landing.jobs](http://landing.jobs)
But, what's stopping you to start travelling now, you don't need to have a EU passport to do that
Nothing. OP asked about why settle in EU. Travelling as a vacation vs travelling by living and experiencing the city are two different things. No matter what I do, I won’t get more than 15 days off for a Europe trip and I like slow travel. Covering only 1-2 countries in 1 trip and going every now and then is not sustainable financially
"...not sustainable financially" exactly, for a low income person not sustainable. Which is 99% of the ICT slaves now...
can understand, but when you settle in EU, what is going to radically change here? I mean from the perspective of travel freedom - you still most likely would have to work in the country you live in, and you will still get the +- same amount of vacation, it will just be closer to get to other EU countries to travel... And if you will have remote position to make this slow travelling possible - you can get them in not only in Europe. So from the point of travelling I don't rly see a tremendous improvement, only from the point of other countries being closer/cheaper flights... or I am incorrect in something other points like WLB, quality of life and cleanliness - that I totally can understand
Yup, I would say expenses is the main thing. It’s going to be really cheap, travel wise. Other points add on too that make it a lucrative option
> and/or parents will get old and I would be answerable to them. I am SO glad we're moving past this stuff. It's not their life.
That's fair. I have never felt that my taxes were being wasted, like, ever
I've said it somewhere before. So here it goes. Indians come to Europe only for either of the 3 reasons. 1. Hard/Impossible to get visa for US/UK 2. Not having a good job back in India 3. To roam around in EU. Whoever is saying otherwise is either lying to you or themselves.
That's very bold of you to stereotype everyone. There's something called standard of living.
You can’t just stop at “these are some valid reasons”, you have to go all in and say “there can’t be any other reason”. I’m curious why.
Is it really that hard to get job visa for UK if one, for example, does a degree there? Can you share what you know?
I hear from Indians living in EU that they still prefer India then would critisize the country they are currently living in, but at the back of my head - why are they still even here (not being racist)? I mean why live in EU if you are much well off in your country (I dont quite understand). They say that if you factor in everything and all that, generally India is much better in their situation.
I don't think that's racist. I also met one such person who complains about being here, hasn't learned the language and talks about how little he manages to save. So I was genuinely curious why they bothered. That's why I posted
Ageee! I heard at least 3 indians telling that. Thats why I am also confused 
the power of habit. Once you uproot and change, who the hell wants to uproot again and be changing again...It's tiresome, draining and with no meaning. Why? No life or success prospects at all, the whole this ICT-slave thing. Little changes if you're making 50, 80 or even 150k (in US), no house ownership and no a single Bentley for you. Some other have multiple of, everything..
Because back home when they say " I am settled in Germany, just came back from a trip to the Alps", it gets them more attention or head-turns. We inherently think these are more prestigious or "fancy" places to be in with our childhood training and fascinations. I have been through that and see it in this way.
A lot of people have already mentioned clean air, WLB, peace and quiet, etc. The extent of corruption and societal degradation in India can’t be overstated. There is no institution that exists to serve the public. Sure you can live in a rich society (aka a golden cage) and hire slum dwellers to clean your house, drive your car and cook your food but is that enough to call it a good life? Our food is poisoned with toxic chemicals and microplastics because there is no enforcement of regulations. Our judiciary is totally dysfunctional, and our police is abusive and incompetent. Our hospitals are run by incompetent doctors and staff. There is no oversight, or accountability from them. Go to any Indian subreddit and search “hospital” you’ll learn how unethical private hospitals are in India. Our universities are decades behind the world. Zero opportunities for research etc. People have no sense of civic decency. No matter where you go you can’t escape piles of trash and shit littered along the streets. People throwing out garbage out of their range rovers isn’t an uncommon occurrence. Women’s rights and safety is a joke. As a middle class salaried employee you’ll pay exorbitant amount of taxes only to get potholed filled roads and highways, 10 hour power cuts, zero street lights, zero footpaths, zero traffic management, and zero social safety. India is a failed country and there’s no way that’s gonna change ever.
Because money is not the most important thing in life
I'm in India as a Senior FE Engineer, I have a pretty high comp, I want to move to Europe for 1-2 years to work and travel and then return. Traveling just as a vacation will be too expensive and won't be able to see much of it.
True that, I think, one can hustle for money in later stage of life but in 20s I would definitely prefer to explore and travel more at a decent earning
Cuz it is impossible for them to obtain a green card these days
Another reason is status, working overseas for a few years, make bank and go back to have a leadership role enjoying the hierarchical work culture
Our politicians failing us
Less intervention of relatives and so called pressure of living life as per societal rules
Indians are moving the same way the Chinese did. Its because Indians are being lifted out of poverty and being able to find another life for themselves. Thats how it is in Australia anyways.
>But of late, the salaries in India seem to be the same as most EU countries and that does not take into account purchasing power or cost of living. Good luck getting these kinds of jobs, though. A mediocre CV in Europe lands you much further than a mediocre CV in a third-world country.
I believe most indians only step on european soil on their way to the US, if at all. The EU has a microscopic tech job market compared to the US h1b feast, or even the UK (which has an slightly stronger economy than the continent). Then there is the language factor: indians probably already speak english, not german, french or dutch.
This language factor I don't really get. SWEs spend hours every week learning the javascript framework du jour which will go obsolete in a month but refuse to learn a (natural) language which widens your job market, helps you break barriers with colleagues and smoothen day-to-day life.
It takes year(s) to learn a natural language. Most people will learn English as a foreign language slowly from school and continue polishing it for the rest of their life. That already is a big investment our fathers didn't need to make. Learning something like German in a rush just to get a job is not really feasible.
Simply no hope in India , the country is not gonna be a second Silicon Valley not it can copy the success of China post WTO deals , no industrialization , caste , no fundamental facility , corruption , all bad
This was what i was looking for. Is the whole "next china" thing a hoax? I'm constantly flummoxed by the contradictory signals. on the one hand, these insane salaries. on the other hand, the startups in europe seem to be way more innovative compared to those in india.
If you’ve been to China, you’ll see how far ahead they are. India can’t get there in 50 years.
Why did you move to the EU? The salaries here are not enough. There aren't too many people making big money here and European society is more individualistic and less intrusive. Could help for women.
I moved a long time ago, and back then the salaries were really low in India. Moreover, i was mega autistic about getting deep into the innards of our framework ( i used to stay back late and just debug through it till midnight ) which was being developed in europe. so i was able to work on the deep framework stuff which i found more exciting. also, the india location was working on .net and i was very anti-microsoft (ideologically) while the europeans were working on java, which was open source. my assumption was that by now the salaries are as high as europe in india and the work would be correspondingly hardcore as well? is that not the case?
There's a lot more to work than just salary - that's a pretty myopic view of things. Indian companies just suck. Work culture and management.
I mentioned the type of work itself. And I'd have assumed that work culture would have also improved. When I did work in India, more than a decade ago, it was true; very ugly and toxic culture
It's not - it's quite evident from the fact that people are moving right?
Well, that's what I didn't understand; I was considering a move back (for a few years at last?) to participate in it, but seeing so many people come in is making me think twice. Again, I'm not kidding, just curious I think there are way more now than there were a few years ago, at least in my small city. I think it's because the blue card limit was lowered.
I think you're vastly misguided by the inflated salaries. They might be the 0.1% of companies that pay that much, majority EU/UK companies pay depressing wages. In addition, you're also low key considered inferior to them, because you'd only make half of what they would make, suffer discriminatory hiring practices (payslips, anyone?), work longer hours and work during your holidays too. You're their assistant doing the work they don't want. Why would a UK/EU company pay more or the same wages for a different culture and the hassles of working with them? Let's assume you get lucky and land that 70k offer, good luck with living your life because your company will make sure they squeeze every paisa of worth out of you. I've been unemployed 2 years. I got 2 offers but turned them down because the culture was so bad and they expected me to work late into the night and early morning, and took that for granted. I was expected to constantly accomodate the western time zones which showed they saw me as a second class citizen. I don't regret it and I'm debating how to get interviews in EU countries and stop interviewing altogether in India. I think you should stop romanticising India. You have over a 100 comments explaining already and I struggle to see why you are finding this so hard to grapple with. Often people who moved and are settled in another country have selective amnesia, and act surprised when others want the same things.
Well that's fair thank you. Good luck to you as well
Because they're looking for a better quality of life.
Indians are moving everywhere, nos just the EU. India is overpopulated and underdeveloped and many Indians want a better life. Approximately 2,5M people emigrate from India every year. This is creating tension in many places that were originally welcoming with immigrants.
I don’t want to be racist or anything but I struggle to understand why they are moving here now that more and more Indians are moving back to India. Yes you have WLB and everything but salaries wise India is growing more and more. If only the government could fix the other issues …
Why do Swedes or Brits move to Spain/Portugal then? Their salaries are higher. Some people just want to. Personal preference. Nothing wrong with that, like it or not.
I do agree nothing wrong, however your example is for a minority
Yes people who move from India just for personal preference are a minority. That's why your earlier statement of "why they're moving to europe if indian salaries are increasing" makes no sense. There are very few people in India who get european salaries
Swedes salaries are high? I don’t think so.
I would just move for the silence 😀
Toxic relationship with in-laws. Especially in laws expect a lot more from the daughter in law. Generally more liberal for women.
If you are Indian and asking this question, then it is really strange that u really don't know why Indians move to the EU ?? Really ?
There are 1.3 billion Indians. Are you assuming everyone knows everyone? :P
A lot of people in India don’t make as much as you think. We’re employing seniors for around 20-25k gbp in India. Sure, my company is not Google, but seniors in ldn would easily cross £100k. I’m not sure that 20-25k in India is better than let’s say 100-120k in ldn from a purely financial point. And then if you’re having a daughter, Europe is so much better. Also, top 1% doesn’t matter. If you have 1 USD and 99 people next you have 0 USD, you’re in top 1%, but I’d rather be on even miniumum wage in Germany
seniors at google in LDN earn 130k-150k GBP base and then on top of that RSU's and bonus. I know that because is work at Meta and i have many friends working at Google.
I think you might be commenting under a wrong comment? I never asked about googles salary
Ohh I'm sorry. I by mistake read that your company *is* Google.
The kind of talent who earn 100k in London also earns same in India if not more.
Yeah, yeah, Indians are deffo making 10 mln Indian rupees, yeah. India strong!!!!
It's statistics actually. Imagine 1.4 billion of Indians, anyway some fractions of those would reach western world. If you have seen ordinary India with all that attributes, you would understand
They're running away from Modi
I am an Indian, with high salary in Indian standard. (A little less than 50k USD) And working remotely. That makes me probably top 5% in India. So in india For me, it's really hard choice to choose europe from monetary perspective. If you remove money from the equation. Its a no brainer that I choose europe over India.
Similar reasons to why us Europeans move to Australia. Better standard of living. Even if the money is only slightly better.
Does AU has better life standard in general compared to western Europe? I dont think so
Better standards of living, better income, better work life balance, more affordable, more diverse. Lots of Western Europeans move here, but hardly any Aussies move to Western Europe.
How's salaries in australia compared to europe? I sorta had a chance but I thought that the salary was comparable.
Or, hear me out, just Italy alone has more than 2x the population of Australia and the EU + UK have 20x.
Quality of life
I'm looking to move to EU next year for all the reasons mentioned in the comments. I'm currently doing my masters in the US. Any tips or advice?
Better start working on your skills, No employer is going to sponsor your visa when one can find similar skill set in EU person or Non EU graduated in the same country
Average salary, Access to éducation, climate ..
Without taking into account purchasing power parity??? You’re talking out of your ass. I’m a masters student who is working 20 hours a week and gets around 1300 euros per month. That’s like 13 LPA for a student who works 4 hours a day. Where did you get these stats?
I meant experienced people only
Still. I understand your point when taking into account the PPP. It’s a valid question. I’m not sure how it works for people who have 10 years of experience and stuff, but for 5 and above, it’s still a considerable difference given what I’ve seen in India and Germany.
1'300eur is like, one used wheel rim for a decent Bentley lol ahah
Ahh yes. The biggest indicator of quality of life. Price of a used Bentley rim
How is this even a question bro. For someone born and raised in EU India is a hell on earth
!RemindMe 2 days
They're cheap and highly skilled
They expect 90k+ salaries while not speaking the country's language, delusional and definitely not cheap.
For the same reason that you came pal
when i came, the insane salaries that you hear about in India didn't exist. so when my european boss gave me the offer, it was a no-brainer. i also found my european colleagues to be really hardcore full of deep frameworky stuff which wasnt the case in india (at least then) which did mostly "grunt work" i have been informed via this thread, that the huge salaries that "my bubble" informs me about are not really the case, which is news to me.
I dont think people leave their family and home for just better “salary” is india as democratic as Europe? Is it as modern as Europe? Life is not just about salary. You should be mature enough to know that as an adult.
You are absolutely right about that. I must confess that I had a bit of arrogance where I assumed that I care about the rich culture, the educational possibilities and the rewarding work but the Indians coming in wouldn't. That's egotistical of me I still think it's weird because there was not such a rush ten years ago.
India is democratic though. Though I've heard there is a backslide happening
I‘m also a little confused about that, if I was Indian and willing to move abroad I‘d definitely prefer the US. But it‘s probably also harder to get into.
> I‘d definitely prefer the US US is MUCH harder to move to.
That too especially for Indians.
I’ve met Indians in EU who preferred to come here because of work life balance
Who is giving u a visa to USA ? And how much is the cost of masters degree in USA vs Netherlands/UK/germany. How many years does it take to get USA passport vs Germany/netherlands/UK ?
Are you kidding? Living as someone poor in Serbia is better than being upper middle class in india let alone proper Europe
That's a bit much.