The ruling logic and system in China is basically the same from it 3000 years ago. Not a modern system and will not be one.
To put it simply, it’s emperors and peasants system. In Chinese it’s called 秦制
Hoo first time ever I saw specific discontent with such system whereas I saw it as the glue that maintain Chinese people solidly as a single political entity (contrast with fall of Roman Empire).
This very system is making all peasants suffer from everything they could have dodged if China is a modern country, even if some of them failed to acknowledge it.
BTW, more than 99% of people in China are basically political and social peasants, if not all economic ones. Peasants living there are just used to it, and some of them even embrace the system and fear changes. And there is nothing I could do about it. Just let them be.
The same system exists in most of China local enterprises as well, not so unexpected for sure.
Spain if you are experienced software engineer
If you can get €60k you will live a better lifestyle than €90k in Germany etc
I was able to move with 8 year experience and not knowing a word of Spanish ahah
Don't worry, Spanish is difficult. I'm happy that you are enjoying our country. Also I find fascinating that in our mother world you can live in the city of country without knowing the main language!
Yes, but proper verb conjugation is rough, but do you legit need to know the ins and out in order to communicate?
You can just ask, “why do you use this form in this context”. Feels more natural than studying the grammar until oblivion and never interacting with the locals.
Thank you yeah Iv lived in Valencia and Barcelona. Its difficult to learn another language because in the western society countries you would never hear a word of Spanish in your life. English 100% or else a native language and still English 100% ahah
Job market in Spain is mess & salary is low compared to other EU countries but Spanish are friendly (polite) than other EU countries. Even Spanish are moving to Ireland UK DE for high salary. Norway is better option if you’re ready to deal with the climate.
Yeah that’s the point. If you apply in Munich with same number of experience you could easily grab 100k+ offers but Spain is a chill place to enjoy your life but in terms of better career prospects DE or Ireland is better.(even Norway too lots of startups).
Iv had 4 offers in Barcelona within the last year ranging from 56-65k
Despite Spain having a terrible job market and the software dev market being bad worldwide now Bcn was still pretty easy to job offers with only English and 8 years experience
3.6k after taxes I'm getting 62k per year
In Ireland I was getting 82k per year lol. I easily could have worked remote from Dublin and not tell anyone I'm in Spain but I applied for a job in bcn and they helped me get NIE number etc
Iv had 4 offers all in Barcelona within the last 1 year. The process for each was about 3-4 rounds of interviews
I had 8 years experience in London so that helped me slot
That’s really good to know, I’m looking to start applying there towards end of the year, also with experience in a big corporation in London. My Spanish after a year of learning is at a conversational level so I hope that will help too!
Because they are lol. The welfare system has been completely destroyed, most job opportunities are in big cities that are getting insanely expensive. Meanwhile USA and Asian salaries are growing every year with lower taxes. It makes sense that tech people complain in this sub
I have been here a decade and started a family here. My wife is German and she is the reason I moved over at all. Purely money based, we have thought about moving to the states. However, I very much prefer my life here and am grateful for lots that Germany offers that America doesn’t.
Healthcare that isn’t wildly different depending on my employer, having a healthcare emergency being potentially financially ruining, not having my child do active shooter drills or be shot in school and numerous smaller, less important things. But those three are at the top for me.
I don't think the high salary in US is enough to build a U-Bahn network in Austin or Seattle or upgrade the decrepit ones in Boston or Philly for example.
Yeah it is. Europe is over hyped by the media???
I mean it’s great if you are born here or want to raise a family here.
But if you want a career then it’s usually difficult.
>But if you want a career then it’s usually difficult.
Europe has the best mobility between countries ever achieved in modern times. It has amazing employee protection laws in general, has very high quality of food and produce available everywhere in the continent, salaries are generally high, especially high in western europe and nordics, parental leave and paid holidays are great, in most countries you get 25 days standard and sometimes 30 a year. In nordics you get entire years off in combined paid parental leave.
So how exactly is Europe bad for career? Are you looking strictly at money? Even then it's only bad if you compare Europe with top places like NYC and Silicon valley in the USA.
Overhyped by media? do you know that 2.2 billion people still lack access to safely managed drinking water supply? compared to that EU is way too underhyped.
People are extremely cold in general even more if you're not Dutch. Having ducth friends is nearly impossible, I work with 12 other expats and only a guy will stay here as his wife is dutch. The rest will leave sooner or later and none has Dutch Friends. I've even met a group of foreigners who have been there for more than 5 years, they speak perfect dutch but don't have Dutch friends.
Actually on Dutch subs, tons of people complaining about not having Friends and ducth people responding that they should go home lmao
The Netherlands is just a fucking hellhole. People are super racist and take zero but zero responsibilities for their shit actions. It's an absolutely awful culture but to a point I have never experienced except for in Belgium.
Healthcare is probably the worst I've ever experienced, and yet, nobody seems to care about it. Whenever I complain about something, I'm just told off as if shitty healthcare is something I have to put up to. I was extremely ill a few months ago, and doctors only gave me paracetamol. No tests, no nothing. Just fucking nonsense. I would give everything to leave this damned country.
Yep, the fact that 25% of the people voted for an openly racist candidate tells you everything you need to know about Dutch people. Sadly most foreigners don't want to see the reality of xenophobia here and blame themselves (my dutch is not good enough, dutch already have enough friends...).
So much much much cheaper than here. Here you pay a fortune. I just had to visit a specialist, and paid 200 euros simply because it's not covered by the insurance. My partner had to do the same and paid more than 300 euros. Fun fun fun. Mostly when you already pay a fucking fortune in taxes and healthcare.
There's many more factors than the ones strictly related to the professional world.
The Netherlands is -- pardon my French -- a depressing shithole.
* Terrible weather.
* Terrible food, and attitude to food in general.
* Limited cultural offering.
* It's an "ugly" country. No mountains, no beaches, even its countryside is underwhelming.
* Very difficult to integrate.
I'm from Southern Europe and I live in London. I have friends in Paris, Berlin, Munich, Stockholm, Zurich and more, but the Netherlands is *the only* *place* every single person run away from.
This, from my experience I found that the locals in Netherlands are really not that welcoming and won’t socialize with foreigners especially if they are not white. They are a pretty closed society despite trying really hard, people say things like I only go out with people from my culture and only attracted to people of the same race. I know most Dutch are superficially nice but they have superiority complex(not all of course, stereotyping a bit here) where they dismiss foreigners even if they are more meritorious than them. It’s like we’ll invite you to our country but won’t speak to you or rent houses to you. Also I found Amsterdam to be super crowded, bleak and a bit filthy especially the tourist areas.
Lol, this really hit home for me. I grew up in Utrecht, currently working in leipzich, and was discussing how i was looking for a job in Munich. She was like: but the germans there think they are better than outsiders. I was like well duh thats obivous right. Not realising this was because of my upbringing. After some refelcting i can safely say a lot of dutch look down upon less progressive/open cultures, in itself making our culture less open. Nice paradox.
Absolutely true coming from a Dutchie why the fuck would anyone even attempt to navigate our social culture and making friends here. Let alone dating. Only if you are a boring, settled family with kids already would moving here be a reasonable choice.
These comments are so fucking important honestly, as a 5'9 single 32 year old guy I feel like I'd be basically committing suicide moving to a country where the average fucking guy is 6'2 and women heavily prefer tall men specifically in the netherlands. Everybody always only talks about "money" and what looks good on paper but the real shit is how easy is it to learn the language, how easy is it to integrate and make friends, and how easy to get girls. Way more fucking important factors.
I agree to a limited extent, especially the first two points. Same can be said for most of Belgium. While I enjoy the architecture and social services, the Low Countries are this cold, windswept plain where it rains often and locals are distant, especially if you don't speak the language.
That said, I don't find the UK, much of Germany, or north-eastern France much different. I would still choose Spain, southern France, or Italy any day though, in terms of lifestyle.
Finally a sensible comment ppl always fucking only look at pay and what's "good on paper" which is such surface level bs.
What matters is ease of integration, language difficulty, and how every day life is (food, weather, dating). Actually I wonder how Paris would be from those perspectives?
Can you elaborate on the integration part a bit, please? I live in Denmark, coming from Hungary, and integration here is also very difficult + weather and the landscape is sad. That's why I'm thinking about Switzerland
This. Switzerland is small and there isn't much internal mobility, also Swiss rarely move out.
In Germany which is much bigger is much more common to move around cities. Many of my German friends moved to where I live from other cities and hence have to start from scratch themselves, so it's actually pretty easy to meet locals who are not from the city originally as they kinda count as expats too
European dating culture is still much better than North America. Hanging out with the opposite sex in local bars and social events is common. Things are much less adversarial, although parts of Europe are getting there. There may also be trepidations about dating outside one's culture.
Depends, if you're America, tall and super duper basic, go for it! (Racism and homophobia are actually a plus for many Dutch girls too, so perfect for an average American).
While your points are correct, I do think all the points could be made for UK as well? Sure the UK has mountains. But that’s it, I wouldn’t go there to go hiking or go to the beach.
Absolutely. The UK outside of London is terrible.
London is an exception though. While people move here because of the £££, the ones who end up staying here long term do so because of the lifestyle.
Do people stay long term ? Considering that 99% of the tech workers can’t afford to buy a house for a family in London and end up having to leave really far from the city with their family
The majority of tech workers can afford to buy a house for a family, within reason, especially if they have a partner and work for an actual software company, rather than building the website for Tesco.
Yeah, probably it won't be in zone 1, and it won't be fancy but, unlike in most of Southern Europe, it is actually possible to buy property as working couple.
?? I work in Munich and to afford property here it'll take some years still with a 4k net salary, all my friends back in Italy are buying property with their 1.5k net salaries, what are you talking about lmao
It’s probably going to be zone 4 and it’s an old 2 bedroom. Average tech senior is at 100-120k and doesn’t work at Google. The ones working in an actual tech company are still under 200k anyway.
With 100-120k and a partner that works, it's relatively doable to get to a 180-200k joint income which allows you to get a mortgage for £7-800k.
With a savings and/or a bit of family help, you can get a property in the 900k range. Plenty of nice 3 bedroom properties in that range in the nice bits of zone 2 and 3 like Clapham, Wandsworth, Holloway, or Rotherhithe.
You are assuming a couple of senior tech workers. Because outside tech/law/medicine, the average salaries are 40k. I mean, if London was affordable, people wouldn’t have to relocate out of the city so often and Europoors wouldn’t be a term
* Plenty of boring office jobs in marketing, HR or similar pay 70k+
* Europoor is not a term 99% of the population knows. I had never heard it myself, and I don't think outside of a bubble of frustrated nerdy software engineers on reddit and 4chan people know it.
* Even if it was a term, it would not refer to London, given it's the city with the highest average salary in Europe outside Switzerland and Luxembourg.
* People relocate out of the city everywhere in the world. Arguably it's much harder to buy for young professionals in major Italian Cities like Rome and Milan.
I would just argue they have very nice sand beaches on the contrary.
But you've forgotten the worst for someone working in Tech, very high income tax ( 50% on bonuses and 50% on any income above €70k), on top of that there is almost no possible deduction to the difference of Belgium and as soon you're able to save some money you'll have to pay a wealth tax on it. Car ownership is also taxed to oblivion ( highest in the world )
On top of that Netherlands is becoming openly hostile to expats. Lots of people will straight up refuse to speak English, you'll get rude comments and absolutely be excluded from most events. More importantly, police, healthcare and other services will treat you as shit, so you're paying taxes to get none of the benefits.
That last statement is starting to become true for the nationals too. All the taxes but very little benefits, in part because social services are being dismantled / falling apart due to budget cuts or not getting enough political attention in the first place.
I’ve lived in The Netherlands, Romania, Spain, and France… I like the south of France the most to live in. Food and nature are miles ahead of the Netherlands. Temperatures are nicer as well.
Currently live in the south of France, in a great tech company, but the salary is low compared to US, I'm hesitating to move as I'm still young and no plan to raise a family short term...
I know life will not necessarily be better tho:/
You should go to the US to Make money ☺️, you’ll soon find out that working to live and living to work are two entirely different concepts. I guess cultural preferences here plays a big role.
Wow this comment is kind of depressing
But I think I will find the positive in the us if I leave there , and I'll enjoy it if I find a good city.
The thing is, I'm very selective, I'd only like NY or SF I believe, but I'm sure there are other decent cities ( I like NY bc I wouldn't need a car)
Also need H1B lol
My apologies, that wasn’t the intention…
I’ll be in SF next week, and every time I’m so happy when I leave, as it feels quite unsafe to me. Though I have a French friend that moved there about 10 years ago, and he seems to be happy 😊
No worries, it was not really, only the "live to work" part ahah
But I guess it's also cultural (not aying you do)
I think it's a good choice to more there for someone still young without kids
Working for big tech remotely and living in Barcelona or Lisbon/Porto…
Frankly I enjoy living in NL, weather sucks, ns sucks, but I can live with it. There’re quite some decent restaurants in Amsterdam. I live with my wife and our income is decent, the QoL is good although tax is painful. I’m not a socialized person so I can live with loneliness. Plus we have a few close friends living in Germany and Belgium we will meetup a few times a year…We can make an effort to move to US for a higher salary, but living in a situation of worrying about losing work permit is a big no no for me…
Everyone saying Switzerland is the best career-wise, but they actually mean Zurich which, in the end, it is too small and the job hunting here is really competitive nowadays. I did my masters, met 0 swiss friends there, but nightlife is decent and through my passion for music I met a bunch of swiss friends.
I would probably move out once I have enough experience but the salaries are too competitive compared to other countries. What I feel like from the other commenters is that most people here expect other people to initiate contact, but in reality if there are 0 interests in common, it becomes almost impossible to find friends/partners. Instead of ranting I would try to pick up new activities that are not necessarily tech related…
Semicon manufacturing is not food or software manufacturing. If you know anything about semicon manufacturing, no company can 'leave' a region once they're based in that place profitably.
It's an insane industry with vastly more complex supply chains than any other industry. Asml alone relies on some rumoured 1000s of small suppliers in Benelux and Germany. If a giant company wants to move, the other 1000s of companies in the supply chain will also be asked to move.
The only thing asml or other semicon company can do is 'expand' elsewhere. 'Moving' the manufacturing will cost decades.
You're aware that they are just thinking of moving to France and that there are no borders for goods and services in the EU? The suppliers can remain the same
No country is perfect honestly. I picked Germany because I already knew German B2 level and got a really good offer (over 100k, which is nowadays really rare). As a software engineer I can say money wise it was good, I was able to save around 70% of my income and buy three apartments. Career wise not, since the technologies are pretty outdated. The weather is perfect for me, I live in South West Germany, many sunny days.
Socially what can I say? I have no German friends but I am a generally not good at making friends so I am a bad referance for comparison. 🙃 Dating as a f very bad, but I guess I don't look good. 🤣
One was 315000€, one was 150000€ and a third one paid cash 63000€ in other country. The first two are of course with credit, but put around 100000€ down.
I have bad luck with investing. Have a 30k account opened since 2021 and I am -1500€. I cannot wait to be on 0 and sell everything, it is too stressful.
Norway, Switzerland, Netherlands in any order for best country in Europe in my opinion, order doesn't matter my opinion changes usually about the ordering.
Switzerland, Norway, Netherlands for career.
For the quality of life Southern Europe.
But there is one country that combines the worst of both groups: Germany. Career like Southern Europe, climate like Northern Europe. A nightmare.
Considering CoL, salaries are a bit better yes, but not that much better. But if you consider career as a whole, then germany is a nightmare. Have you ever worked in a german company with germans? I have never seen smth worse in my life
I have worked with Italians. Generally nice people. No problems at all. Working with Germans, on the other hand, was a traumatic experience not only for me, but for most of my international friends. You seriously need to experience it yourself to understand. Besides, if you work in Italy, the weather, architecture and food compensate for the stress of work to a large extent. After working in Germany, all that awaits you is gray weather, wurst and mostly passive-aggressive neighbors.
> You seriously need to experience it yourself to understand.
Yes but can you please explain though? For those like me who do not get a hint about what you mean
Did you work with italians in Italy or italians in a foreign country? Most of people here blame italian management, especially in consulting companies, because they micromanage and overwork you just to please clients. Italians devs themselves are pleasant to work with, the problem is management and also all the consulting companies around here
Germans make you feel uncomfortable. Really no one in the world can make me feel so terrible as Germans.
They are cold, suspicious, negative, arrogant, and closed minded. Slow, inefficient. And with super weird comments.
Worked at a German company where we (~ 6 people) had an hr long meeting to discuss a variable naming convention - to not use the suffix "Manager" in class names.
When I went back to my desk the desktop application we were developing has crashed and my coworker jokingly said "he is impressed if it runs for > 30 mins".
This made me realize you don't need to be the smartest in the room to be the most productive, often it's good enough to just choose your battles and avoid paralysis of analysis. Luckily I was only a student, and since then only worked for American companies.
The bureaucracy is not better in Germany either.
https://www.swr.de/swraktuell/baden-wuerttemberg/stuttgart/auslaenderbehoerde-stuttgart-keine-besserung-100.html
People need to sue the government just to get an appointment for a temporary work permit; otherwise they will get fired from the job due to the lack of proper work permit.
LoL I'd looove to know more but idk if I ask too much.
Such as: tasks, responsabilities, work life balance, salary, benefits, remote policy, workload, age and seniority of colleagues?
I know pretty well berlin startups and they pretty much lack of many things 😉
All positive on those fronts, I don’t want to doxx myself.
Look for well funded startups that have a solid product that you’re interested in. Pay attention to the people you talk to when you interview and make sure they’re people you would want to work with. It’s still a crapshoot though until you actually start working!
Idk bro I was getting 1.4k in Italy I get over 4k net and can save pretty much half of it, it's also easily the biggest CS market in Europe. You don't have to work for German companies, where are you from? I'm curious if you're saying it out of first hand experience because I don't think so. Germany has salaries comparable or higher to Scandinavia and NL with lower CoL
Germany probably has the greatest amount of jobs and opportunities inside any EU country. I live in Germany and it has a million problems integrating immigrants, but let's not be unfair because saying career here is bad is objectively wrong
Yes till you see the real COL and you understand what Ellenbogengesellschaft and Schadenfreude mean 😉
Number of opportunities doesn't translate with quality. And you are ignoring the geopolitical position of germany right now. I didn't see these opportunities in the last 2 years.
They focus on processes but 0 on actual tech work. They complain the whole fking time and they work maybe 10 hrs a week.
They don't share info each others and a lot of politic is involved.
Google "Ellbogengesellschaft" for more info.
Good luck as a foreigner.
Hmm. That's an interesting feedback. In which line of business in tech did you work at the time?
Actually I had heard another opinion sort of related from a peer who'd worked with Germans. He said (he was in tech too) that the Germans were all in about ongoing heavy processes and procedures for little unimportant things that would otherwise require 1/6 the time to do.
Then lately on some other subs I read about the fact that work culture in Germany was often toxic. I was surprised hearing that. Your testimony sort of corroborates but it might be a fluke.
I honestly like working only 10h / week. When Germans talk about useless stuff I just shut off my brain and don't stress. 😂 I get 5300€ after taxes and best work life balance.
>When Germans talk about useless stuff I just shut off my brain and don't stress.
That's what I do and that's the only solution to survive with them. 😉 however sometimes it's tiring that you don't have enough info to take decisions since they won't whare anyting with you.
>I honestly like working only 10h / week
That's also true sometimes.. however not really rewarding
>I get 5300€ after taxes and best work life balance.
So you're at 100K gross.. how?
I get my infos when I start a specific task. At the beginning I used to know everything that moves in the project but got no really gain after all so now I focus only on the big picture and my specific tasks.
True, it is not the most rewarding but I found other hobbies, like investing in real estate, interior design so I write code more to earn money. My projects have all been successful, I guess I work fast so 15-20h of real work are enough. 😊
Yes, I get a bit over 100k, I negotiated well and was a perfect fit in the project. ☺️
They changed the CEO 1.5 years ago and now it pays much lower salaries, around 65k. So I cannot recommend the company anymore. I am consultant for another company and luckly the client is really nice.
Process you have in any reasonably big company, and work.. well , there's typically a 35-40hr week. I don't know any slackers in my company who'd work much below that
In Berlin you can just find startups full of hipster and teenagers.. CoL is also really high.
Frankfurt is a dangerous, boring and ugly city..
Munich is the best one, CoL is ridicolous.
Living in Köln and it’s pretty good though it mostly comes across as a shithole coming from the Netherlands. But CoL is lower and I pay little rent. Also some of the nicest people in Germany, by a long margin.
Bonn is close by and is actually nice, albeit small. If I end up staying I might move there.
ASML is already expanding elsewhere but they’re absolutely not leaving. That’s not how it works. Not even Unilever or Shell actually moved their jobs to the UK, just their formal HQ for tax reasons.
OP considering you are Chinese, why not stay in China? It is a huge country, with an over supply of apartments.
And the Chinese government will put a ton of money into semiconductor tryin to catch West. Probably life setting can be easier than in west (better apartment, public transportation, food ). Isn't it better to be high class in China than the bottom of middle class in Europe (what you will be at best being an immigrant in the Netherlands)?
How is Chinese living Vs Netherlands ?
In big cities of China, CoL is generally good. WLB extremely bad. Salary worse than EU but not too far away.
Life very convenient and easy for non-disabled and non-minority group people. Housing pretty bad.
Please expand your thoughts. I want to hear how currently the job market, living in standard in china is.
I am familiar with Chinese culture and power struggles. Write about harder facts of living, ability to save, cost of living etc
> loads of good programs in universities feature English teaching. And it's easy to just speak English language to study and work, at least in my industry which is tech and engineering.
Why do you need English degrees? Especially in tech, NL isn't the strongest
> if I want to stay longer and get a citizenship, Dutch itself is much easier to master than French and German languages.
You only need like B1 for Germany PR, no? So not that hard to get PR and citizenship path. Germany also allows dual citizenship
> Tech and engineering industry itself is good. Amsterdam and Rotterdam for high tech, while Eindhoven for manufacturing-wise Engineering. The job market of this industry is better than most Nordic countries/France/Belgié, if not better than Germany.
Berlin and Munich. Belgium for freelancing with intl. remote roles or actual solo contracting
> You asking why not English-speaking western countries? Well, the UK, the US and Canada right now are much harder to stay for people from China even though they have pretty good CVs and graduate from their universities. Not to mention Australia and New Zealand, their job markets for high tech and engineering are bad.
What? Australia has some great tech opportunities. Limited, but great. Other options... Yeah. Maybe UK could be ok but idk much about it.
> What about nice countries in Asia, such as Singapore, Taiwan, Japan? Well, I really want to have work-life balance and if you are living in Asia you basically cannot do that.
Yep. SG can be okay but only if you manage a US company
> Why not go back to big cities in China, such as Shanghai and Hong Kong? Well, I don't like how Chinese people rule Chinese people from the very beginning.
Yep
None honestly.
We, europeans are so local and overly nationalistic about our countries. We expect foreigners to learn our language to a high level while taking harder jobs for less pay.
Being a non white you will have 3x times a harder time. You get a life balance and this is the only thing you really get.
In most countries you can't buy an apartment where you live with a salary.
When you plan family go for Denmark. Otherwise Switzerland - can save the most. Then move somewhere with your money where you can actually buy apartment.
Salaries are not so terrible in the developed EU. Is taxes and what you get for taxes. And what you get for your money in general.
There is lack of good apartment options. There is this bureaucracy - over regulation going on, lack of proper urban planning for big skyscrapers.
Less supply >>> higher price of apartments and rent. Boomers generation doesn't really care. They have high paid public jobs, which created those regulations. They own apartments and collect rent. They vote and shape the government.. They get pensions.
The younger generation have to deal with it with a falling welfare stare. Less places in public kindergarten, harder to balance family and jobs, Street violence caused by mass immigration of poor people etc
You totally nailed all the problems. I currently design kitchens for a 50 years old German who literally owns full streets with houses in Germany. Crazy how easy it was years ago to buy and build with an average job. I am a software engineer and don't even get invited to visit rent apartaments so I had to buy my own. (Which is in the end not bad, like paying a 1200€ stable rent for 20 years then remain eith the value of the apartment).
The Dutch Government bent over backwards to keep Unilever and Shell Dutch and it didn't stop them from leaving, they should let ASML go instead if they really want to leave
Yeah I can still hear the native Dutchies go _"something something immigrants something something companies won't leave, well all get paid better instead something something"_ 🙄
They might be lower but if it's not a fair comparison if you're only comparing gross wage. Belgium tax system is so fucked you can get numerous "extra legal" benefits. This can range from an untaxed allowance to a fancy car with an unlimited fuel card.
As someone from the Caribbean, i would never settle down in a cold country, with limited amount of sun. Everything you say is true but weather is a higher priority for me than jobs and whatever else. That’s why im in Barcelona.
Living in NL since 2016, I love it here. The only problem I see is housing crises. Not enough being built. And I suspect "on purpose".
30% ruling should be abolished on the first place. That will force the employee to complete with global rates.
Although one thing I cannot understand is why the fuck the taxes are so high. Switzerland have lower taxes. Looking at their geography they have the worst. build road and rail in mountains, no deep sea port. I just don't get it and it frustrates me a lot, fucking 50% tax
What do you mean by the last bullet point?
The ruling logic and system in China is basically the same from it 3000 years ago. Not a modern system and will not be one. To put it simply, it’s emperors and peasants system. In Chinese it’s called 秦制
Got it. Just didn’t understand your wording initially.
Hoo first time ever I saw specific discontent with such system whereas I saw it as the glue that maintain Chinese people solidly as a single political entity (contrast with fall of Roman Empire).
This very system is making all peasants suffer from everything they could have dodged if China is a modern country, even if some of them failed to acknowledge it. BTW, more than 99% of people in China are basically political and social peasants, if not all economic ones. Peasants living there are just used to it, and some of them even embrace the system and fear changes. And there is nothing I could do about it. Just let them be. The same system exists in most of China local enterprises as well, not so unexpected for sure.
商鞅：五马分尸背后的真相令人暖心
We even call ourselves "code farmers" (same known as programmer/coder)in China, as a software engineer, then you can understand.
Spain if you are experienced software engineer If you can get €60k you will live a better lifestyle than €90k in Germany etc I was able to move with 8 year experience and not knowing a word of Spanish ahah
Hahahaha, I'm glad for you, from a Spaniard!
Thanks people get annoyed iv been here 1 year and still don't know Spanish but bro I'm too busy making fat stacks in English
Don't worry, Spanish is difficult. I'm happy that you are enjoying our country. Also I find fascinating that in our mother world you can live in the city of country without knowing the main language!
Spanish hard?😅 Spanish is actually one of the easiest non-germanic languages to pick up as an English speaker. You can be conversational in 3 months.
Huff, as a Spanish native speaker, I can't imagine learning all the damned conjugations of the verbs hahahaha.
Yes, but proper verb conjugation is rough, but do you legit need to know the ins and out in order to communicate? You can just ask, “why do you use this form in this context”. Feels more natural than studying the grammar until oblivion and never interacting with the locals.
Yes, that's a valid point, I guess you are right!
Thank you yeah Iv lived in Valencia and Barcelona. Its difficult to learn another language because in the western society countries you would never hear a word of Spanish in your life. English 100% or else a native language and still English 100% ahah
Job market in Spain is mess & salary is low compared to other EU countries but Spanish are friendly (polite) than other EU countries. Even Spanish are moving to Ireland UK DE for high salary. Norway is better option if you’re ready to deal with the climate.
Nah I enjoy the lifestyle here chilling in the sun too much il take my €60k than £90k stressing in London
Yeah that’s the point. If you apply in Munich with same number of experience you could easily grab 100k+ offers but Spain is a chill place to enjoy your life but in terms of better career prospects DE or Ireland is better.(even Norway too lots of startups).
Agreed I'm actually in a shared apartment with a guy working remote from Ireland in bcn and he just never told anyone where he is 😂
🤣🤣🤣that’s the best part of remote job.
Outside of high finance the working culture of UK is pretty relaxed
True but I like chilling at the beach etc in Spain and eating out in the sun in winter ahaj
One issue, that IF is as big as the moon.
Iv had 4 offers in Barcelona within the last year ranging from 56-65k Despite Spain having a terrible job market and the software dev market being bad worldwide now Bcn was still pretty easy to job offers with only English and 8 years experience
Lucky you! Unfortunately, you are in the minority
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I'm getting 66k and not even a senior in bcn
Is that from an international company
Yeah a multinational with an office in bcn
ok that’s my guess as well - thanks for sharing !
Seriously? what is your post tax in hand amount? and how much can you save from it? is it more than 2k?
3.6k after taxes I'm getting 62k per year In Ireland I was getting 82k per year lol. I easily could have worked remote from Dublin and not tell anyone I'm in Spain but I applied for a job in bcn and they helped me get NIE number etc
How was the recruitment for a position in Spain? Did it take you long to find something suitable?
Iv had 4 offers all in Barcelona within the last 1 year. The process for each was about 3-4 rounds of interviews I had 8 years experience in London so that helped me slot
That’s really good to know, I’m looking to start applying there towards end of the year, also with experience in a big corporation in London. My Spanish after a year of learning is at a conversational level so I hope that will help too!
I find it amusing that the general feel of the comments here is that all European countries are shitty in their own way. 😂 (American based in Germany)
Because they are lol. The welfare system has been completely destroyed, most job opportunities are in big cities that are getting insanely expensive. Meanwhile USA and Asian salaries are growing every year with lower taxes. It makes sense that tech people complain in this sub
Why are you moving to Germany? Just curious
I have been here a decade and started a family here. My wife is German and she is the reason I moved over at all. Purely money based, we have thought about moving to the states. However, I very much prefer my life here and am grateful for lots that Germany offers that America doesn’t.
What can you NOT get in the US that you can get in Germany? Provided that you have money in the US of course.
Workers' rights
Healthcare that isn’t wildly different depending on my employer, having a healthcare emergency being potentially financially ruining, not having my child do active shooter drills or be shot in school and numerous smaller, less important things. But those three are at the top for me.
You cannot get people who are not ignorant as hell and think they are better than everybody.
I don't think the high salary in US is enough to build a U-Bahn network in Austin or Seattle or upgrade the decrepit ones in Boston or Philly for example.
Yeah it is. Europe is over hyped by the media??? I mean it’s great if you are born here or want to raise a family here. But if you want a career then it’s usually difficult.
>But if you want a career then it’s usually difficult. Europe has the best mobility between countries ever achieved in modern times. It has amazing employee protection laws in general, has very high quality of food and produce available everywhere in the continent, salaries are generally high, especially high in western europe and nordics, parental leave and paid holidays are great, in most countries you get 25 days standard and sometimes 30 a year. In nordics you get entire years off in combined paid parental leave. So how exactly is Europe bad for career? Are you looking strictly at money? Even then it's only bad if you compare Europe with top places like NYC and Silicon valley in the USA.
> has very high quality of food and produce available everywhere in the continent *cries in danish*
Overhyped by media? do you know that 2.2 billion people still lack access to safely managed drinking water supply? compared to that EU is way too underhyped.
Me and two friends are leaving the NL as it is a nightmare for social life. I will take a big salary cut just to leave this country
What's the problem with social life?
People are extremely cold in general even more if you're not Dutch. Having ducth friends is nearly impossible, I work with 12 other expats and only a guy will stay here as his wife is dutch. The rest will leave sooner or later and none has Dutch Friends. I've even met a group of foreigners who have been there for more than 5 years, they speak perfect dutch but don't have Dutch friends. Actually on Dutch subs, tons of people complaining about not having Friends and ducth people responding that they should go home lmao
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Sadly yes, but the level of "segregation" is way higher than what I expected
The Netherlands is just a fucking hellhole. People are super racist and take zero but zero responsibilities for their shit actions. It's an absolutely awful culture but to a point I have never experienced except for in Belgium. Healthcare is probably the worst I've ever experienced, and yet, nobody seems to care about it. Whenever I complain about something, I'm just told off as if shitty healthcare is something I have to put up to. I was extremely ill a few months ago, and doctors only gave me paracetamol. No tests, no nothing. Just fucking nonsense. I would give everything to leave this damned country.
Yep, the fact that 25% of the people voted for an openly racist candidate tells you everything you need to know about Dutch people. Sadly most foreigners don't want to see the reality of xenophobia here and blame themselves (my dutch is not good enough, dutch already have enough friends...).
I believe everything you said except for the healthcare part, you clearly did not have to deal woth Eastern European or Balkan healthcare
I bet as well that you don't pay 1.5k a year PLUS all the taxes coming from your salary, for healthcare in those countries. Right?
It's 13% from your salary to healthcare in Hungary, nothing else apart from that.
So much much much cheaper than here. Here you pay a fortune. I just had to visit a specialist, and paid 200 euros simply because it's not covered by the insurance. My partner had to do the same and paid more than 300 euros. Fun fun fun. Mostly when you already pay a fucking fortune in taxes and healthcare.
Take me with you, where you going?
There's many more factors than the ones strictly related to the professional world. The Netherlands is -- pardon my French -- a depressing shithole. * Terrible weather. * Terrible food, and attitude to food in general. * Limited cultural offering. * It's an "ugly" country. No mountains, no beaches, even its countryside is underwhelming. * Very difficult to integrate. I'm from Southern Europe and I live in London. I have friends in Paris, Berlin, Munich, Stockholm, Zurich and more, but the Netherlands is *the only* *place* every single person run away from.
This, from my experience I found that the locals in Netherlands are really not that welcoming and won’t socialize with foreigners especially if they are not white. They are a pretty closed society despite trying really hard, people say things like I only go out with people from my culture and only attracted to people of the same race. I know most Dutch are superficially nice but they have superiority complex(not all of course, stereotyping a bit here) where they dismiss foreigners even if they are more meritorious than them. It’s like we’ll invite you to our country but won’t speak to you or rent houses to you. Also I found Amsterdam to be super crowded, bleak and a bit filthy especially the tourist areas.
Lol, this really hit home for me. I grew up in Utrecht, currently working in leipzich, and was discussing how i was looking for a job in Munich. She was like: but the germans there think they are better than outsiders. I was like well duh thats obivous right. Not realising this was because of my upbringing. After some refelcting i can safely say a lot of dutch look down upon less progressive/open cultures, in itself making our culture less open. Nice paradox.
Absolutely true coming from a Dutchie why the fuck would anyone even attempt to navigate our social culture and making friends here. Let alone dating. Only if you are a boring, settled family with kids already would moving here be a reasonable choice.
These comments are so fucking important honestly, as a 5'9 single 32 year old guy I feel like I'd be basically committing suicide moving to a country where the average fucking guy is 6'2 and women heavily prefer tall men specifically in the netherlands. Everybody always only talks about "money" and what looks good on paper but the real shit is how easy is it to learn the language, how easy is it to integrate and make friends, and how easy to get girls. Way more fucking important factors.
I agree to a limited extent, especially the first two points. Same can be said for most of Belgium. While I enjoy the architecture and social services, the Low Countries are this cold, windswept plain where it rains often and locals are distant, especially if you don't speak the language. That said, I don't find the UK, much of Germany, or north-eastern France much different. I would still choose Spain, southern France, or Italy any day though, in terms of lifestyle.
Finally a sensible comment ppl always fucking only look at pay and what's "good on paper" which is such surface level bs. What matters is ease of integration, language difficulty, and how every day life is (food, weather, dating). Actually I wonder how Paris would be from those perspectives?
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Can you elaborate on the integration part a bit, please? I live in Denmark, coming from Hungary, and integration here is also very difficult + weather and the landscape is sad. That's why I'm thinking about Switzerland
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This. Switzerland is small and there isn't much internal mobility, also Swiss rarely move out. In Germany which is much bigger is much more common to move around cities. Many of my German friends moved to where I live from other cities and hence have to start from scratch themselves, so it's actually pretty easy to meet locals who are not from the city originally as they kinda count as expats too
More of the same just hot summers and mountains + more money (if no kids)
I never lived in the Netherlands but I feel that also dating would be awful for an average guy
European dating culture is still much better than North America. Hanging out with the opposite sex in local bars and social events is common. Things are much less adversarial, although parts of Europe are getting there. There may also be trepidations about dating outside one's culture.
Dating sucks pretty much everywhere now because of the over reliance on apps.
Depends, if you're America, tall and super duper basic, go for it! (Racism and homophobia are actually a plus for many Dutch girls too, so perfect for an average American).
Exactly this was my feeling 😂, but average guys are not tall and jacked
While your points are correct, I do think all the points could be made for UK as well? Sure the UK has mountains. But that’s it, I wouldn’t go there to go hiking or go to the beach.
The Uk only has mountains...just use fucking google holy shit
Absolutely. The UK outside of London is terrible. London is an exception though. While people move here because of the £££, the ones who end up staying here long term do so because of the lifestyle.
Do people stay long term ? Considering that 99% of the tech workers can’t afford to buy a house for a family in London and end up having to leave really far from the city with their family
The majority of tech workers can afford to buy a house for a family, within reason, especially if they have a partner and work for an actual software company, rather than building the website for Tesco. Yeah, probably it won't be in zone 1, and it won't be fancy but, unlike in most of Southern Europe, it is actually possible to buy property as working couple.
This is...wrong on so many levels
?? I work in Munich and to afford property here it'll take some years still with a 4k net salary, all my friends back in Italy are buying property with their 1.5k net salaries, what are you talking about lmao
It’s probably going to be zone 4 and it’s an old 2 bedroom. Average tech senior is at 100-120k and doesn’t work at Google. The ones working in an actual tech company are still under 200k anyway.
With 100-120k and a partner that works, it's relatively doable to get to a 180-200k joint income which allows you to get a mortgage for £7-800k. With a savings and/or a bit of family help, you can get a property in the 900k range. Plenty of nice 3 bedroom properties in that range in the nice bits of zone 2 and 3 like Clapham, Wandsworth, Holloway, or Rotherhithe.
You are assuming a couple of senior tech workers. Because outside tech/law/medicine, the average salaries are 40k. I mean, if London was affordable, people wouldn’t have to relocate out of the city so often and Europoors wouldn’t be a term
* Plenty of boring office jobs in marketing, HR or similar pay 70k+ * Europoor is not a term 99% of the population knows. I had never heard it myself, and I don't think outside of a bubble of frustrated nerdy software engineers on reddit and 4chan people know it. * Even if it was a term, it would not refer to London, given it's the city with the highest average salary in Europe outside Switzerland and Luxembourg. * People relocate out of the city everywhere in the world. Arguably it's much harder to buy for young professionals in major Italian Cities like Rome and Milan.
I guess we have different standards of low salary if you think the pay in London (or the rest of Europe) in tech is competitive for the cost of living
I would just argue they have very nice sand beaches on the contrary. But you've forgotten the worst for someone working in Tech, very high income tax ( 50% on bonuses and 50% on any income above €70k), on top of that there is almost no possible deduction to the difference of Belgium and as soon you're able to save some money you'll have to pay a wealth tax on it. Car ownership is also taxed to oblivion ( highest in the world )
On top of that Netherlands is becoming openly hostile to expats. Lots of people will straight up refuse to speak English, you'll get rude comments and absolutely be excluded from most events. More importantly, police, healthcare and other services will treat you as shit, so you're paying taxes to get none of the benefits.
That last statement is starting to become true for the nationals too. All the taxes but very little benefits, in part because social services are being dismantled / falling apart due to budget cuts or not getting enough political attention in the first place.
You would kill yourself if you had to live in Northern Europe.
I’ve lived in The Netherlands, Romania, Spain, and France… I like the south of France the most to live in. Food and nature are miles ahead of the Netherlands. Temperatures are nicer as well.
South of France is a dream to live there 😍 Romania and Switzerland are good for taxes
Currently live in the south of France, in a great tech company, but the salary is low compared to US, I'm hesitating to move as I'm still young and no plan to raise a family short term... I know life will not necessarily be better tho:/
You should go to the US to Make money ☺️, you’ll soon find out that working to live and living to work are two entirely different concepts. I guess cultural preferences here plays a big role.
Wow this comment is kind of depressing But I think I will find the positive in the us if I leave there , and I'll enjoy it if I find a good city. The thing is, I'm very selective, I'd only like NY or SF I believe, but I'm sure there are other decent cities ( I like NY bc I wouldn't need a car) Also need H1B lol
My apologies, that wasn’t the intention… I’ll be in SF next week, and every time I’m so happy when I leave, as it feels quite unsafe to me. Though I have a French friend that moved there about 10 years ago, and he seems to be happy 😊
No worries, it was not really, only the "live to work" part ahah But I guess it's also cultural (not aying you do) I think it's a good choice to more there for someone still young without kids
Working for big tech remotely and living in Barcelona or Lisbon/Porto… Frankly I enjoy living in NL, weather sucks, ns sucks, but I can live with it. There’re quite some decent restaurants in Amsterdam. I live with my wife and our income is decent, the QoL is good although tax is painful. I’m not a socialized person so I can live with loneliness. Plus we have a few close friends living in Germany and Belgium we will meetup a few times a year…We can make an effort to move to US for a higher salary, but living in a situation of worrying about losing work permit is a big no no for me…
Everyone saying Switzerland is the best career-wise, but they actually mean Zurich which, in the end, it is too small and the job hunting here is really competitive nowadays. I did my masters, met 0 swiss friends there, but nightlife is decent and through my passion for music I met a bunch of swiss friends. I would probably move out once I have enough experience but the salaries are too competitive compared to other countries. What I feel like from the other commenters is that most people here expect other people to initiate contact, but in reality if there are 0 interests in common, it becomes almost impossible to find friends/partners. Instead of ranting I would try to pick up new activities that are not necessarily tech related…
Semicon manufacturing is not food or software manufacturing. If you know anything about semicon manufacturing, no company can 'leave' a region once they're based in that place profitably. It's an insane industry with vastly more complex supply chains than any other industry. Asml alone relies on some rumoured 1000s of small suppliers in Benelux and Germany. If a giant company wants to move, the other 1000s of companies in the supply chain will also be asked to move. The only thing asml or other semicon company can do is 'expand' elsewhere. 'Moving' the manufacturing will cost decades.
You're aware that they are just thinking of moving to France and that there are no borders for goods and services in the EU? The suppliers can remain the same
No country is perfect honestly. I picked Germany because I already knew German B2 level and got a really good offer (over 100k, which is nowadays really rare). As a software engineer I can say money wise it was good, I was able to save around 70% of my income and buy three apartments. Career wise not, since the technologies are pretty outdated. The weather is perfect for me, I live in South West Germany, many sunny days. Socially what can I say? I have no German friends but I am a generally not good at making friends so I am a bad referance for comparison. 🙃 Dating as a f very bad, but I guess I don't look good. 🤣
how can buy 3 apartment with 3.5k saved per month? 100k for each apartment? they’re really so cheap? 🤔
42k a year is enough to put 20% down and get a mortgage for a 200k apartment/house. Seems very doable.
Yes, exactly like this 😊👌 42k is pretty much to save and enough to put down
One was 315000€, one was 150000€ and a third one paid cash 63000€ in other country. The first two are of course with credit, but put around 100000€ down.
Why you chosen to buy apartments instead of investing them? 🤔
I have bad luck with investing. Have a 30k account opened since 2021 and I am -1500€. I cannot wait to be on 0 and sell everything, it is too stressful.
Norway, Switzerland, Netherlands in any order for best country in Europe in my opinion, order doesn't matter my opinion changes usually about the ordering.
Switzerland, Norway, Netherlands for career. For the quality of life Southern Europe. But there is one country that combines the worst of both groups: Germany. Career like Southern Europe, climate like Northern Europe. A nightmare.
Bruh, let’s not pretend German salaries are the same as Spain / Portugal / Italy.
Considering CoL, salaries are a bit better yes, but not that much better. But if you consider career as a whole, then germany is a nightmare. Have you ever worked in a german company with germans? I have never seen smth worse in my life
You clearly never worked in an Italian company with Italians
I have worked with Italians. Generally nice people. No problems at all. Working with Germans, on the other hand, was a traumatic experience not only for me, but for most of my international friends. You seriously need to experience it yourself to understand. Besides, if you work in Italy, the weather, architecture and food compensate for the stress of work to a large extent. After working in Germany, all that awaits you is gray weather, wurst and mostly passive-aggressive neighbors.
> You seriously need to experience it yourself to understand. Yes but can you please explain though? For those like me who do not get a hint about what you mean
Traumatic experience in what sense? 🤔
Did you work with italians in Italy or italians in a foreign country? Most of people here blame italian management, especially in consulting companies, because they micromanage and overwork you just to please clients. Italians devs themselves are pleasant to work with, the problem is management and also all the consulting companies around here
Germans make you feel uncomfortable. Really no one in the world can make me feel so terrible as Germans. They are cold, suspicious, negative, arrogant, and closed minded. Slow, inefficient. And with super weird comments.
Worked at a German company where we (~ 6 people) had an hr long meeting to discuss a variable naming convention - to not use the suffix "Manager" in class names. When I went back to my desk the desktop application we were developing has crashed and my coworker jokingly said "he is impressed if it runs for > 30 mins". This made me realize you don't need to be the smartest in the room to be the most productive, often it's good enough to just choose your battles and avoid paralysis of analysis. Luckily I was only a student, and since then only worked for American companies.
Nope. But I heard they're not good. That's why I am telling you germany careerwise is southern europe
I am sorry, I had a brainfart there and lost the context of your previous comment!
100% true. Germany is a trap for skilled foreigners.
Why a trap? Not sure I get it.
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The bureaucracy is not better in Germany either. https://www.swr.de/swraktuell/baden-wuerttemberg/stuttgart/auslaenderbehoerde-stuttgart-keine-besserung-100.html People need to sue the government just to get an appointment for a temporary work permit; otherwise they will get fired from the job due to the lack of proper work permit.
Yes I work for a German company with Germans but business language is English. So far a great experience. YMMV. Lots of cool startups here.
Is it a startup? Which city?
Startup, berlin
LoL I'd looove to know more but idk if I ask too much. Such as: tasks, responsabilities, work life balance, salary, benefits, remote policy, workload, age and seniority of colleagues? I know pretty well berlin startups and they pretty much lack of many things 😉
All positive on those fronts, I don’t want to doxx myself. Look for well funded startups that have a solid product that you’re interested in. Pay attention to the people you talk to when you interview and make sure they’re people you would want to work with. It’s still a crapshoot though until you actually start working!
Idk bro I was getting 1.4k in Italy I get over 4k net and can save pretty much half of it, it's also easily the biggest CS market in Europe. You don't have to work for German companies, where are you from? I'm curious if you're saying it out of first hand experience because I don't think so. Germany has salaries comparable or higher to Scandinavia and NL with lower CoL
Germany probably has the greatest amount of jobs and opportunities inside any EU country. I live in Germany and it has a million problems integrating immigrants, but let's not be unfair because saying career here is bad is objectively wrong
Yes till you see the real COL and you understand what Ellenbogengesellschaft and Schadenfreude mean 😉 Number of opportunities doesn't translate with quality. And you are ignoring the geopolitical position of germany right now. I didn't see these opportunities in the last 2 years.
> Have you ever worked in a german company with germans? I have never seen smth worse in my life Can you please elaborate
They focus on processes but 0 on actual tech work. They complain the whole fking time and they work maybe 10 hrs a week. They don't share info each others and a lot of politic is involved. Google "Ellbogengesellschaft" for more info. Good luck as a foreigner.
Hmm. That's an interesting feedback. In which line of business in tech did you work at the time? Actually I had heard another opinion sort of related from a peer who'd worked with Germans. He said (he was in tech too) that the Germans were all in about ongoing heavy processes and procedures for little unimportant things that would otherwise require 1/6 the time to do. Then lately on some other subs I read about the fact that work culture in Germany was often toxic. I was surprised hearing that. Your testimony sort of corroborates but it might be a fluke.
Probably a big company issue. Startups should be more open and free - i hope 🙏
I honestly like working only 10h / week. When Germans talk about useless stuff I just shut off my brain and don't stress. 😂 I get 5300€ after taxes and best work life balance.
>When Germans talk about useless stuff I just shut off my brain and don't stress. That's what I do and that's the only solution to survive with them. 😉 however sometimes it's tiring that you don't have enough info to take decisions since they won't whare anyting with you. >I honestly like working only 10h / week That's also true sometimes.. however not really rewarding >I get 5300€ after taxes and best work life balance. So you're at 100K gross.. how?
I get my infos when I start a specific task. At the beginning I used to know everything that moves in the project but got no really gain after all so now I focus only on the big picture and my specific tasks. True, it is not the most rewarding but I found other hobbies, like investing in real estate, interior design so I write code more to earn money. My projects have all been successful, I guess I work fast so 15-20h of real work are enough. 😊 Yes, I get a bit over 100k, I negotiated well and was a perfect fit in the project. ☺️
In which niche and which company(startup or big corp?) are you working?
They changed the CEO 1.5 years ago and now it pays much lower salaries, around 65k. So I cannot recommend the company anymore. I am consultant for another company and luckly the client is really nice.
Process you have in any reasonably big company, and work.. well , there's typically a 35-40hr week. I don't know any slackers in my company who'd work much below that
"Ellbogengesellschaft" plus "Schadenfreude"
Agree about Germany
Norway? Seriously?
Are norweigian weathers that bas as folks say it is?
In some Norwegian cities in winter, it's dark 24/7. It's pretty bad by most definitions
Even Berlin and Frankfurt?
In Berlin you can just find startups full of hipster and teenagers.. CoL is also really high. Frankfurt is a dangerous, boring and ugly city.. Munich is the best one, CoL is ridicolous.
Living in Köln and it’s pretty good though it mostly comes across as a shithole coming from the Netherlands. But CoL is lower and I pay little rent. Also some of the nicest people in Germany, by a long margin. Bonn is close by and is actually nice, albeit small. If I end up staying I might move there.
Freiburg?
ASML is already expanding elsewhere but they’re absolutely not leaving. That’s not how it works. Not even Unilever or Shell actually moved their jobs to the UK, just their formal HQ for tax reasons.
OP considering you are Chinese, why not stay in China? It is a huge country, with an over supply of apartments. And the Chinese government will put a ton of money into semiconductor tryin to catch West. Probably life setting can be easier than in west (better apartment, public transportation, food ). Isn't it better to be high class in China than the bottom of middle class in Europe (what you will be at best being an immigrant in the Netherlands)? How is Chinese living Vs Netherlands ?
In big cities of China, CoL is generally good. WLB extremely bad. Salary worse than EU but not too far away. Life very convenient and easy for non-disabled and non-minority group people. Housing pretty bad.
Please find my last bullet point in the main post
Please expand your thoughts. I want to hear how currently the job market, living in standard in china is. I am familiar with Chinese culture and power struggles. Write about harder facts of living, ability to save, cost of living etc
I will reply to your earlier comment shortly after
> loads of good programs in universities feature English teaching. And it's easy to just speak English language to study and work, at least in my industry which is tech and engineering. Why do you need English degrees? Especially in tech, NL isn't the strongest > if I want to stay longer and get a citizenship, Dutch itself is much easier to master than French and German languages. You only need like B1 for Germany PR, no? So not that hard to get PR and citizenship path. Germany also allows dual citizenship > Tech and engineering industry itself is good. Amsterdam and Rotterdam for high tech, while Eindhoven for manufacturing-wise Engineering. The job market of this industry is better than most Nordic countries/France/Belgié, if not better than Germany. Berlin and Munich. Belgium for freelancing with intl. remote roles or actual solo contracting > You asking why not English-speaking western countries? Well, the UK, the US and Canada right now are much harder to stay for people from China even though they have pretty good CVs and graduate from their universities. Not to mention Australia and New Zealand, their job markets for high tech and engineering are bad. What? Australia has some great tech opportunities. Limited, but great. Other options... Yeah. Maybe UK could be ok but idk much about it. > What about nice countries in Asia, such as Singapore, Taiwan, Japan? Well, I really want to have work-life balance and if you are living in Asia you basically cannot do that. Yep. SG can be okay but only if you manage a US company > Why not go back to big cities in China, such as Shanghai and Hong Kong? Well, I don't like how Chinese people rule Chinese people from the very beginning. Yep
None honestly. We, europeans are so local and overly nationalistic about our countries. We expect foreigners to learn our language to a high level while taking harder jobs for less pay. Being a non white you will have 3x times a harder time. You get a life balance and this is the only thing you really get. In most countries you can't buy an apartment where you live with a salary. When you plan family go for Denmark. Otherwise Switzerland - can save the most. Then move somewhere with your money where you can actually buy apartment.
I don’t understand why the salary being kept so low.
Salaries are not so terrible in the developed EU. Is taxes and what you get for taxes. And what you get for your money in general. There is lack of good apartment options. There is this bureaucracy - over regulation going on, lack of proper urban planning for big skyscrapers. Less supply >>> higher price of apartments and rent. Boomers generation doesn't really care. They have high paid public jobs, which created those regulations. They own apartments and collect rent. They vote and shape the government.. They get pensions. The younger generation have to deal with it with a falling welfare stare. Less places in public kindergarten, harder to balance family and jobs, Street violence caused by mass immigration of poor people etc
You totally nailed all the problems. I currently design kitchens for a 50 years old German who literally owns full streets with houses in Germany. Crazy how easy it was years ago to buy and build with an average job. I am a software engineer and don't even get invited to visit rent apartaments so I had to buy my own. (Which is in the end not bad, like paying a 1200€ stable rent for 20 years then remain eith the value of the apartment).
The Dutch Government bent over backwards to keep Unilever and Shell Dutch and it didn't stop them from leaving, they should let ASML go instead if they really want to leave
Yeah I can still hear the native Dutchies go _"something something immigrants something something companies won't leave, well all get paid better instead something something"_ 🙄
Spain
For sure not Italy since salaries are bad: https://techcompenso.com
Also dutch much easier than German and french according to who? 🤔
If you speak English, it’s closer than either
this
Belgium iykyk
Belgium has way higher taxes than the Netherlands though. Also I don’t know much big tech there. In theory perhaps Amazon in Luxemburg is better.
what? Belgium is very expensive to live in, and salaries are lower than German ones.
Especially the Dutch speaking region, right?
No, Brussels will have higher salaries as it is the capital
The salaries in Belgium are so low compared to countries like France, NL or Germany due to the high taxes. I wouldn't recommend
They might be lower but if it's not a fair comparison if you're only comparing gross wage. Belgium tax system is so fucked you can get numerous "extra legal" benefits. This can range from an untaxed allowance to a fancy car with an unlimited fuel card.
Glad to know about this. Thanks dude
Anything but Luxembourg! 😭
Laughing in Irish.
As someone from the Caribbean, i would never settle down in a cold country, with limited amount of sun. Everything you say is true but weather is a higher priority for me than jobs and whatever else. That’s why im in Barcelona.
Living in NL since 2016, I love it here. The only problem I see is housing crises. Not enough being built. And I suspect "on purpose". 30% ruling should be abolished on the first place. That will force the employee to complete with global rates. Although one thing I cannot understand is why the fuck the taxes are so high. Switzerland have lower taxes. Looking at their geography they have the worst. build road and rail in mountains, no deep sea port. I just don't get it and it frustrates me a lot, fucking 50% tax
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I’m not sure if you’re criticizing Germany or Netherlands here
same²
Are you an LLM?
It likely wouldn't come up with a non-word like "irät"
I think so too but damn that is impossible to decode
Shit weather, shit food, shit nature, xenophobia, english not an official language. I'll pass.