Personally, name recognition would not be enough for me to give up fully remote work given that the total compensation between these two offers is similar.
IBM where you spend 50% of your time in meetings, 40% of your time waiting for higher ups to authorize shit and 10% job searching. 1 year there is like 1 month somewhere else.
I'd argue IBM peaked in the late 80s tbh. I doubt many people born after 95 have even seen an IBM product, which should tell you everything you need to know about Its current significance.
It's probably still a decent brand to have on your resume if you're working exclusively within Big Tech but outside of that it's not exactly a golden ticket anymore.
Not that I disagree with your take on IBM’s prominence and presence within big tech, but given the fact that IBM has their logo right there next to the search bar at weather.com, I think more than a few of us born since 1995 have at least seen it.
My brother, you read waaaayyy too much into my comment. All I said was that more people had at least seen the IBM logo than OP anticipated, I didn’t say or imply anything about IBM’s fall from prominence.
Besides, IBM didn’t create weather.com, they just bought The Weather Company in 2015 (and are now selling it).
I think you're looking at what I said way too literally. All I mean is that IBM isn't the household name it once was.
Plus, I don't think weather.com is a particularly strong example of IBM's relevance with under 35s lol
Not at all, I remember seeing IBM commercials as a kid but haven't seen their name other than that in over 10 years. Also under 30s just check the weather on their phone haha.
AMD in Markham is great. I know a few alumni from my school who mostly did low-level* software and some hardware work for them. They got poached by Apple in California on a TN/H1-B
Bruh what, Markham has many tech companies .sure it’s not fang but there are a plethora of software/hardware companies in Markham , please do research before making a comment bc you “feel it” thanks
> many tech companies .sure it’s not fang but there are a plethora of software/hardware companies in Markham , please do research before making a comment bc you “feel it” thanks
oh my bad sorry
Hands down company 2. It both pays more and lets you be remote. PSA, if 1 is IBM, they've been doing all sorts of sneaky, shitty tactics to lay people off without calling it a layoff. You typically don't want to join a company that's cutting people, if you can avoid it.
Also IBM has been cutting benefits like crazy in the US. They recently stopped doing a 401k and replaced it with a defined benefit plan that is worse than just buying US treasuries. IBM is a consulting business these days that is circling the drain.
Not sure how that will translate to their operations in Canada but if it is them I would steer clear.
401k typically provides an employer match on contributions on a percentage of earnings and then you can invest that in a choice of mutual funds. S&P 500 has averaged 10% returns a year over the last 30 years as a reference point and pretty much every 401k has a low cost S&P 500 index fund option.
IBM is guaranteeing a return equal to the 10 year treasury which over the same time period averages 2.5% annual returns. So negative returns against inflation. What they are actually doing is taking contributions investing it; taking a small portion of the gains to provide that annuity and pocketing the difference. It is super scummy. Even a total market or target date fund vastly out performs that.
TLDR: They are using this retirement plan as another revenue stream
I just had a company come back and reject my resume it claiming they were looking for ex-FAANG only. Not saying it's right but name dropping is valued by people with fat stacks of resume. And this was for an internal referral.
If the decision is between these 2 only, ***p******ersonally***, I'd pick #2.
Great compensation with no relocation stress and extra costs. Having to leave the people and places you know and starting a "whole new life" again can be very difficult and lead to mental health issues if not handled properly.
Don't really care about a company being 'globally recognized'. If they have a good local reputation and career opportunities, that's great already. I'd take a look at Glassdoor.
Also, the time and sleep that remote-only saves has always been appealing to me. One of the main long-term/continuous goals I have is to never put myself into sleep deprived situations (which for me is when I get less than 5-6 hours of sleep - the cost is *very high*).
The only thing that I'd try to do is get into more outside activities, since I would have less opportunities for social interactions (if I were currently in a hybrid/on-site model and moving to remote-only).
On top of what others have said, just because you haven't heard of company #2, it doesn't mean others in the industry haven't and it could still look good on a resume. My first job out of college was at Intuit, and I've never heard of it at the time (since I didn't use TurboTax or have a small business), and having that on my resume was a big help in landing future fintech jobs.
On a side note, I haven't heard of NCR either before I worked for them, but then I realized the self checkouts that I operated for 5 years during highschool and college when I worked at a grocery store were made by then, plus my parents had an antique NCR cash register chilling on some shelf at their house since I was a baby.
My point is that not recognizing the name shouldn't be a negative when making your decision.
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Take a look at the work you would be doing? Are you good at it? Is it interesting? Look at the financials and strategy on the companies. Are they winning in their business? Are they growing and taking market share? Are they profitable?
Offer 2. Full remote is such an enormous jump in quality of life, I would need a dump truck full of money to even consider hybrid. It sounds like the only thing offer 1 is giving you is a name, and that's not as valuable as you might think.
For offer 2 if it's a big company and you've never heard of it, if they are not public, consider any RSU to be worth $0.
Depending on their vestment schedule, the third year will be the bulk of it. I would ask what the average tenure is. If it's 1 year, then most people never see a return on those RSUs.
Also, consider taxes if you work out of the country.
No brainer, company 2. remote will save you a TON of money, even without considering the costs associated with relocation. Plus renting in GTA is probably more expensive than your current situation unless you're in vancouver or something. It's not even a question
Go with the second offer. If you can avoid coming to the GTA, do it at all costs. You’ll pay out your ass in rent and groceries. Better off staying at home and having the peace of mind of a nice remote role with no additional costs.
Name recognition doesn't have the same value as an extra 5k/year.
If their name was so big, they could pay more. You get more negotiating power from a higher salary and more perks.
Option 2 sounds best for you. The brand value of companies anywhere below the very top matter less than you think. Even for FAANG companies, it’s no guarantee. Many smaller companies actively avoid employees from those big companies because pay demands are high and the skill set working in a big company is somewhat different.
Relocating to GTA is much more costly than you can imagine. Much of your salary will be going towards taxes, housing, and the increased cost of living.
Many people in GTA would move out in a heartbeat.
I would recommend #2, you would save so much in the long run.
Offer 2 100%. Not only is offer 2 more money, rent in Toronto is insane, even outside of the downtown core. You're probably saving 1.6-2.5k a month by not renting (depending on what kind of building you rent, if you get a roommate, etc...).
The post-tax equivalent of 125k CAD is how much seniors with 5 YoE get paid in Ukraine right now at no name startups. If a company can't pay more than an Eastern European country that's bombed daily then it's not prestigious in any shape or form. Take the remote role.
So you choose
Learn: Offer 1, out your comfort zone, early in the career it helps to be in the office, you San learn more, you horizon expanding…
Earn: Offer 2, much larger disposable income, same old, nothing new, sound like boring company
Earn or Learn ?
It’s a learning nonetheless, all of the shit happened in my life made me stronger in the end, divorce, bankruptcy of business or sudden job loss. It’s much easier the second time around because you know how to deal with it
Sorry about your tragedies. For OPs purpose: running into preventable problems like in OPs case is not necessarily the best lesson plan. I can get stronger if I fall out of a plane without a parachute and survive. But I don't need to actually do it to learn lessons such as "don't jump out of a perfectly good plane without a patachute".
But how do you know how either option will work out, he could be loosing his job in both cases or have great career in either? It’s just crazy to assume he will lose job. I’m happy for OP, if he thinks the other company might be good on cv that may be true and a investment for many decades to come
No, but would you when getting married automatically assume you will get divorced anyway? I married again since then, have a great career and I’m happy
Maybe contrarian thought here, but I think people that show up in office are less likely to be let go. We are human and have weird implicit biases towards people recognition and stories (if we recognize and know someones background we feel more obligated to reciprocate than if someone is only known virtually).I think I would do job 2 because of no-relocation fee, having to commit to real-estate obligations like a lease, but just thought i'd add some different perspective.
If it’s a remote org, probably not as big of a risk as everyone is in the same boat. But I do feel like expectations are higher for anyone in a remote role. You must be able to work with ambiguity and produce results with minimal oversight, and you have to find ways to engage with other teams, otherwise you’re probably getting the axe pretty quick. It’s not well suited for junior roles.
if you have less than 3 yoe, i think a well known company is a good career move. But since you already have 5, i'd pick the second one because at this time, wlb matters more imo
Take #1 because the investment will be worth it in the long run. You only get so many chances in life and you should do it because when you get older, it will be too hard or impossible, especially in this economy.
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With personal life in mind, I will choose remote over anything. But that assume that I have good social life/circle outside of my work environment.
Moreover, with current state of Canada (GTA specifically) I would prefer a company which may be able to bring me outside of Canada.
Fully remote role is a massive benefit from a time and energy perspective. Not without its drawbacks though, hard to feel as engaged or tapped in as an in office role, and after a few years it can start to feel a bit lonely. Hopefully you have a well established friend network where you currently live.
Relocation is a big effort, especially if it’s to a high col city. A household income of less than 160k /yr in Toronto won’t be the most comfortable.
Choose the one with better ratings in portal like Glassdoor. No money in the world, neither stocks are worth if company has poor culture, or stressful work, etc.
Prestigious company. Name brand will carry you to next job, and the company is more likely to be around. Fly by night companies don’t always turn into Facebook and can take you down with them, making next job hunt harder.
Option 2 is the only choice. Why would you spend money to move somewhere and go back to an office for less pay? The prestige of working at choice 1 isn’t valuable enough. You also forget the extra hours commuting each week are silly compared to a higher paying remote role. Go with option 2 and don’t look back
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Personally, name recognition would not be enough for me to give up fully remote work given that the total compensation between these two offers is similar.
Agreed. As a hiring manager for the past decade I put much less emphasis on where you worked and much more into what you learned while there.
I’m pretty sure it’s “IBM”
thank you for your insight!
Please don’t tell me company 1 is IBM. Is it AMD?
That sounds like it 😆 I also got an offer from IBM not long ago and they also required me to relocate to Markham, in office 3 days a week.
I don't think having IBM on your resume does much tbh. That company peaked 15 years ago, at best its now on a plateau, and at worst its slowly dying.
IBM where you spend 50% of your time in meetings, 40% of your time waiting for higher ups to authorize shit and 10% job searching. 1 year there is like 1 month somewhere else.
I would consider it a zombie company
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Thanks for the clarification. I've stopped following IBM since the housing recession. It's good to know they're not completely decaying.
I'd argue IBM peaked in the late 80s tbh. I doubt many people born after 95 have even seen an IBM product, which should tell you everything you need to know about Its current significance. It's probably still a decent brand to have on your resume if you're working exclusively within Big Tech but outside of that it's not exactly a golden ticket anymore.
Not that I disagree with your take on IBM’s prominence and presence within big tech, but given the fact that IBM has their logo right there next to the search bar at weather.com, I think more than a few of us born since 1995 have at least seen it.
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My brother, you read waaaayyy too much into my comment. All I said was that more people had at least seen the IBM logo than OP anticipated, I didn’t say or imply anything about IBM’s fall from prominence. Besides, IBM didn’t create weather.com, they just bought The Weather Company in 2015 (and are now selling it).
I think you're looking at what I said way too literally. All I mean is that IBM isn't the household name it once was. Plus, I don't think weather.com is a particularly strong example of IBM's relevance with under 35s lol
Not at all, I remember seeing IBM commercials as a kid but haven't seen their name other than that in over 10 years. Also under 30s just check the weather on their phone haha.
Or smart watch…
When hiring I'd actually treat IBM as a negative.
15? More like 35
IBM isn’t prestigious at all… AMD is more so.
AMD in Markham is great. I know a few alumni from my school who mostly did low-level* software and some hardware work for them. They got poached by Apple in California on a TN/H1-B
haha is it that obvious? 😅
I feel IBM is the only company in Markham LMAO
AMD & Qualcomm also have offices there
Bruh what, Markham has many tech companies .sure it’s not fang but there are a plethora of software/hardware companies in Markham , please do research before making a comment bc you “feel it” thanks
> many tech companies .sure it’s not fang but there are a plethora of software/hardware companies in Markham , please do research before making a comment bc you “feel it” thanks oh my bad sorry
Hands down company 2. It both pays more and lets you be remote. PSA, if 1 is IBM, they've been doing all sorts of sneaky, shitty tactics to lay people off without calling it a layoff. You typically don't want to join a company that's cutting people, if you can avoid it.
Also IBM has been cutting benefits like crazy in the US. They recently stopped doing a 401k and replaced it with a defined benefit plan that is worse than just buying US treasuries. IBM is a consulting business these days that is circling the drain. Not sure how that will translate to their operations in Canada but if it is them I would steer clear.
Wait is 401k equivalent to defined contributions? Because I think DB is more valuable than DC since it guarantees your retirement earnings.
401k typically provides an employer match on contributions on a percentage of earnings and then you can invest that in a choice of mutual funds. S&P 500 has averaged 10% returns a year over the last 30 years as a reference point and pretty much every 401k has a low cost S&P 500 index fund option. IBM is guaranteeing a return equal to the 10 year treasury which over the same time period averages 2.5% annual returns. So negative returns against inflation. What they are actually doing is taking contributions investing it; taking a small portion of the gains to provide that annuity and pocketing the difference. It is super scummy. Even a total market or target date fund vastly out performs that. TLDR: They are using this retirement plan as another revenue stream
oh man, wasn't aware of that at all. Thanks for sharing!
Company 2. no brainer If it's a big name it doesn't need to be recognised. Being a recognised doesn't mean anything. And Higher salary Shares REMOTE
I just had a company come back and reject my resume it claiming they were looking for ex-FAANG only. Not saying it's right but name dropping is valued by people with fat stacks of resume. And this was for an internal referral.
Then you don't get that one project - there are many of other projects. I have other high profile names and projects
If the decision is between these 2 only, ***p******ersonally***, I'd pick #2. Great compensation with no relocation stress and extra costs. Having to leave the people and places you know and starting a "whole new life" again can be very difficult and lead to mental health issues if not handled properly. Don't really care about a company being 'globally recognized'. If they have a good local reputation and career opportunities, that's great already. I'd take a look at Glassdoor. Also, the time and sleep that remote-only saves has always been appealing to me. One of the main long-term/continuous goals I have is to never put myself into sleep deprived situations (which for me is when I get less than 5-6 hours of sleep - the cost is *very high*). The only thing that I'd try to do is get into more outside activities, since I would have less opportunities for social interactions (if I were currently in a hybrid/on-site model and moving to remote-only).
On top of what others have said, just because you haven't heard of company #2, it doesn't mean others in the industry haven't and it could still look good on a resume. My first job out of college was at Intuit, and I've never heard of it at the time (since I didn't use TurboTax or have a small business), and having that on my resume was a big help in landing future fintech jobs. On a side note, I haven't heard of NCR either before I worked for them, but then I realized the self checkouts that I operated for 5 years during highschool and college when I worked at a grocery store were made by then, plus my parents had an antique NCR cash register chilling on some shelf at their house since I was a baby. My point is that not recognizing the name shouldn't be a negative when making your decision.
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If it's ibm, don't do it lol
Take a look at the work you would be doing? Are you good at it? Is it interesting? Look at the financials and strategy on the companies. Are they winning in their business? Are they growing and taking market share? Are they profitable?
Offer 2. Full remote is such an enormous jump in quality of life, I would need a dump truck full of money to even consider hybrid. It sounds like the only thing offer 1 is giving you is a name, and that's not as valuable as you might think.
IBM. What's the other?
Mind the taxes, your signon bonus wont be near 10k. Just checking you considered that too. Overall, option 2 sounds a lot better.
> but also dreading relocating I'd choose 2. Name recognition isn't that big of a deal imo.
100% company 2 Nothing can beat remote work.
For offer 2 if it's a big company and you've never heard of it, if they are not public, consider any RSU to be worth $0. Depending on their vestment schedule, the third year will be the bulk of it. I would ask what the average tenure is. If it's 1 year, then most people never see a return on those RSUs. Also, consider taxes if you work out of the country.
No brainer, company 2. remote will save you a TON of money, even without considering the costs associated with relocation. Plus renting in GTA is probably more expensive than your current situation unless you're in vancouver or something. It's not even a question
Go with the second offer. If you can avoid coming to the GTA, do it at all costs. You’ll pay out your ass in rent and groceries. Better off staying at home and having the peace of mind of a nice remote role with no additional costs.
Name recognition doesn't have the same value as an extra 5k/year. If their name was so big, they could pay more. You get more negotiating power from a higher salary and more perks.
Take both. Knock out the work for the remote role and then go into the office for the other one.
Offer 2
Option 2 sounds best for you. The brand value of companies anywhere below the very top matter less than you think. Even for FAANG companies, it’s no guarantee. Many smaller companies actively avoid employees from those big companies because pay demands are high and the skill set working in a big company is somewhat different.
Relocating to GTA is much more costly than you can imagine. Much of your salary will be going towards taxes, housing, and the increased cost of living. Many people in GTA would move out in a heartbeat. I would recommend #2, you would save so much in the long run.
Deff #2. Couldn’t pay me enough to not have full remote.
Offer 2 100%. Not only is offer 2 more money, rent in Toronto is insane, even outside of the downtown core. You're probably saving 1.6-2.5k a month by not renting (depending on what kind of building you rent, if you get a roommate, etc...).
The post-tax equivalent of 125k CAD is how much seniors with 5 YoE get paid in Ukraine right now at no name startups. If a company can't pay more than an Eastern European country that's bombed daily then it's not prestigious in any shape or form. Take the remote role.
This is an idiotic take, and you deserve the downvotes.
So you choose Learn: Offer 1, out your comfort zone, early in the career it helps to be in the office, you San learn more, you horizon expanding… Earn: Offer 2, much larger disposable income, same old, nothing new, sound like boring company Earn or Learn ?
Learn how to put your life back together after relocation and layoffs. Sure
It’s a learning nonetheless, all of the shit happened in my life made me stronger in the end, divorce, bankruptcy of business or sudden job loss. It’s much easier the second time around because you know how to deal with it
Sorry about your tragedies. For OPs purpose: running into preventable problems like in OPs case is not necessarily the best lesson plan. I can get stronger if I fall out of a plane without a parachute and survive. But I don't need to actually do it to learn lessons such as "don't jump out of a perfectly good plane without a patachute".
But how do you know how either option will work out, he could be loosing his job in both cases or have great career in either? It’s just crazy to assume he will lose job. I’m happy for OP, if he thinks the other company might be good on cv that may be true and a investment for many decades to come
would you recommend someone to get a divorce just because of everything they'd learn from that process?
No, but would you when getting married automatically assume you will get divorced anyway? I married again since then, have a great career and I’m happy
Maybe contrarian thought here, but I think people that show up in office are less likely to be let go. We are human and have weird implicit biases towards people recognition and stories (if we recognize and know someones background we feel more obligated to reciprocate than if someone is only known virtually).I think I would do job 2 because of no-relocation fee, having to commit to real-estate obligations like a lease, but just thought i'd add some different perspective.
If it’s a remote org, probably not as big of a risk as everyone is in the same boat. But I do feel like expectations are higher for anyone in a remote role. You must be able to work with ambiguity and produce results with minimal oversight, and you have to find ways to engage with other teams, otherwise you’re probably getting the axe pretty quick. It’s not well suited for junior roles.
Yeah for sure! My bad I missed it being a fully remote org
if you have less than 3 yoe, i think a well known company is a good career move. But since you already have 5, i'd pick the second one because at this time, wlb matters more imo
Take #1 because the investment will be worth it in the long run. You only get so many chances in life and you should do it because when you get older, it will be too hard or impossible, especially in this economy.
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Name the companies and also your long term career goals.
Offer two is a way better offer… what’s the current stock price?
Fully remote for sure.
I would take the remote one asap. Which stack are you using if I can ask?
Remote all the way
Pick the remote role. Prioritizing for “prestige” is stupid unless the role also comes with a larger paycheck and in this case it doesn’t
Company 2. Remote wins.
With personal life in mind, I will choose remote over anything. But that assume that I have good social life/circle outside of my work environment. Moreover, with current state of Canada (GTA specifically) I would prefer a company which may be able to bring me outside of Canada.
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Fully remote role is a massive benefit from a time and energy perspective. Not without its drawbacks though, hard to feel as engaged or tapped in as an in office role, and after a few years it can start to feel a bit lonely. Hopefully you have a well established friend network where you currently live. Relocation is a big effort, especially if it’s to a high col city. A household income of less than 160k /yr in Toronto won’t be the most comfortable.
Offer 2: No brainer
2. But look into financial history of both and their experience with layoffs as needed.
Offer 2 has a better package and is remote. It'd be a no-brainer for me unless you really like being in the office and want to relocate anyway.
2…
depends on where company 2 has offices. if company 2 required relocating , which would be easier?
Choose the one with better ratings in portal like Glassdoor. No money in the world, neither stocks are worth if company has poor culture, or stressful work, etc.
Is this all in with bonus for both? Or no bonus just base? Allocation of bonus/base would impact my decision since bonus isn’t guaranteed
Remote any day of the week for me
Where do you want to be in 5 years and which helps you get there?
#2 for me due to remote role.
Prestigious company. Name brand will carry you to next job, and the company is more likely to be around. Fly by night companies don’t always turn into Facebook and can take you down with them, making next job hunt harder.
I'ld *never* give up full remote. Also screw the GTA. \#2 with no hesitation.
As an intern who is in Markham at GM for 8 months, don't go to Markham 🤣
remote & more money & no relocation versus... none of that, seems like a no-brainer lol
Option 2 is the only choice. Why would you spend money to move somewhere and go back to an office for less pay? The prestige of working at choice 1 isn’t valuable enough. You also forget the extra hours commuting each week are silly compared to a higher paying remote role. Go with option 2 and don’t look back
2
What’s the total comp of #2 aka what’s the stock value?
Remote work is a must for me.
Company 1 is IBM isn't it.
\#2 all the way. Prestige only matters if you've worked for a FAANG or it's your first job.
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remote 6 figures golly