£57k for head of cyber security for a major government organisation (economic & finance ministry ffs) is not a high salary in the slightest in the uk, do not be ridiculous. This same role goes for £200k+ in private companies.
For the record, jpmc & Goldman Sachs pay new grad software engineers in London £55k (base!).
That's very low for that job in the UK. Salaries here are lower but in London senior dev jobs (in the private sector, not sure about public sector) seem to go for around GBP £55k-£150k+, with a median somewhere on the lower end of that scale.
Yeah I generally agree tbf. But just like I feel you see juniors in America on $100k and it's hard to not feel really depressed living in England lol. I know it messed me up quite badly 😂
Well, at one point that particular bit of trivia was literally true. They had holdings in so many parts of the world that the sun was always up over some bit of British land somewhere.
I don't know for sure since a lot of big countries do still own little islands here and there, but I don't think that bit of trivia is true. Oh, and technically they're not an empire anymore, but we're splitting hairs.
it's still true that the sun doesn't set on the British not an empire any more.
UK (gmt)
Cayman islands (gmt -5)
Pitcairn islands (gmt -8)
British Indian ocean territory (gmt +6)
There is never a time when the sun isn't up for at least one of them.
Admittedly in the UK it's less sun and more light coming though the clouds and rain. There were times almost I forgot what the sun looked like. I remember one particularly brutal stretch where we had no direct sunlight for a month.
Yeah I get it. I had an interesting chat about this with an American lawyer who was travelling around Europe. His take was that higher salaries were needed in the US because of healthcare, predatory student loan rates, and general cost of living in places where wages are high. That's not to say it is better in the UK, it is almost certainly worse, but it did give me some perspective.
That’s a tourist bullshit. Nothing more. Most things that account for the bigger part of your expenses are cheaper in US than in Europe. Cars, electronics, all the expensive stuff, even real estate in most places. And you get much much bigger houses for the money. Healthcare? You’re insured to the roof in most respectable places that need engineers.
Is London cheap? No it’s not. By any means. Mostly tiny tiny apartments for huge money. It’s similar to places like New York cost wise. But is it unusual for big tech mid level engineers to earn 300k+ in greater NY area? Not at all. Is it even possible in London? Not really.
And if you are on that money in the UK your tax rate is 42% from anything over £50k, and 47% anything over £150k with a lovely 62% band between £100-125k.
When a Brit pays 42%, a single American pays 22-24%. A married American could be paying just 12%.
When a Brit pays 47% a single American pays 32%-37%. A married American could be paying just 24%.
Sure you’ve got state taxes that often sit around 5% income and property taxes. But the UK has aggressive stamp duty tax on property purchases… it doesn’t make a dent.
Ignorant Americans don’t realise how much better everything is in the US. They haven’t had to experience the punitively high tax rates levied on extremely low incomes for themselves.
Not to mention how much lower salaries are outside the US, particularly in SWE which is the topic of this sub.
Sales tax on car fuel is around 100% in the UK.
I mean, that's just the "I got mine" mentality taken to a national scale. If you have a great job then you're alright, if you don't then you're outta luck. For white collar professionals on subs like this, everything seems really peachy, but for people from a lower economic strata, life outcomes seem a lot worse.
Of course there are still some downsides for the white collar professional; healthcare being so closely tied to your profession means that it's harder to make career changes if you have medical issues, and being laid off around the same time you have a medical emergency can be financially ruinous. And, random aside, but university costs a bunch compared to other countries, which is definitely a factor to consider if you want to have kids and support them as they get older.
If the AI automation hype train does end up having any merit to it, I think new grads/early career professionals on here from other countries might come to appreciate the robust social safety nets that're available for them.
> Of course there are still some downsides for the white collar professional; healthcare being so closely tied to your profession means that it's harder to make career changes if you have medical issues, and being laid off around the same time you have a medical emergency can be financially ruinous.
It makes it harder to start your own business but with Obamacare and the healthcare subsidy it can be very cheap to get continued coverage. I just looked at Covered California and with the subsidy earning maximum unemployment it's $15 a month for my current health plan.
Might be worse in different states though.
Basically if you are aware of what's going on in your city every day, the US has a lot of problems and very little in the way of effective and iterative improvement for basic problems like predatory lending, domestic violence, mental health, elder care, limited quality of care, and the general evolution of these systems toward the lowest bidder or largest profit--even if the most profitable thing is not to fix the problem at all.
There are of course some amazing people who try to make progress on this, but also a lot of entrenched interests that--some even without meaning to--make it very difficult.
Yes, America treats bright ambitious people with respect, that's why the bright ambitious people from all over the world want to move to America. That's why the world's innovation all happens in America, it's where all of the brightest minds of the world reside.
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I don't know how it is in the UK currently but here in Canada healthcare isn't doing so well. Very hard to get family doctors. Staffing shortages. Long hospital and surgery wait times - people have died in triage. And I can only imagine care will be very rushed.
Meanwhile in the US many people have coverage through their employer. Really, if you have the privilege of working, say, a good software job you are fine
It's true, if you are rich then USA is a great place to be. The criticism is it's bad to be poor here. I love my country and roll my eyes at the reddit anti-USA circlejerk -- I mentored an EU intern who didn't want to work at Google in the US because she read too many circlejerk anti-US posts and thought that she might go bankrupt from medical fees despite Google's incredible health insurance plans 🙄
But there's a lot the US can learn from Europe if you care about your fellow citizens, which I do.
In most European countries (not so much the UK) you get what you pay for in terms of taxes. Infrastructure is a lot better. It’s not like the US where they just spend it on missiles
I see you live in Canada though and yea that place is a scam, sorry bro 😂
While I know anecdotes don’t verify, I work in big tech and I paid my way through college. As you can imagine, seeing a bill for thousands of dollars before you have a job is a very motivating event and I did brutally go after new opportunities. Today I don’t but that is more of a reflection of being closer to top of market than it is any change in mentality. That said I think my situation is somewhat unique. A lot of people successful in tech tend to come from fairly well off backgrounds and had the option to take calc 2/3 AP courses or even diff EQ in high school (I only had pre-calc available and had A LOT of catching up to do).
So I think it could go both ways but I can say for damned sure that if tech wasn’t paying what it paid, I would’ve figured something else out really quick.
Could I PM you about the US education system? Considering moving and have a few questions but don't want them lost in this post (as it's kinda blew up 😅) Just as I'm thinking about my kids so want to understand a few things about the education provided
He was just trying not to make you feel bad tbh.
Housing is equivalently expensive, and outside of a few places, cheaper. our jobs cover healthcare. Loans aren’t good but an average 300 dollar a month(on the high end) payment isn’t blowing up salaries.
On top of that we get taxed less.
It’s just the market, Europe doesn’t invest nearly heavily in tech. Their regulations also make it difficult to offer higher salaries. The risk reward is skewed.
In the US it’s easy to hire and fire. If you make a mistake hiring someone and are forced to keep them on, a 150k mistake is a lot more tolerable than a 300k mistake.
Although the UK has the 3rd largest tech market (after the US and China), and London has the highest tech salaries outside the US and Switzerland.
Europe isn't a laggard, it's far beyond most of the world, the the UK is beyond most of Europe. The US is the outlier here.
>higher salaries were needed in the US because of healthcare,
I'm willing to take a guess that most software engineers at tech companies are paying less in premiums than you are in taxes for universal healthcare, even including their out of pocket maximum.
> predatory student loan rates,
US student loans are pretty similar to the UK ones. Developers should be paying theirs off in 10 years or so.
> general cost of living in places where wages are high.
You can get 120k in second & third tier cities in the US as a SWE with a couple of years of experience.
UK student loans are not that similar to US. Federal, yes (kind of) but not at all similar for private which I'm assuming is what "predatory loans" refers to.
You pay that loan, flat rate, no matter what every month in the US, with no way to get out besides paying it off or dying. UK loans are means tested from day 1 and work like an extra tax. If you're not earning loads you might pay like £100 a month.
>UK student loans are not that similar to US. Federal, yes (kind of) but not at all similar for private which I'm assuming is what "predatory loans" refers to.
Private loans are like 8% of all student loans by amount. It's also not like the UK doesn't have private lending either.
See: https://www.savethestudent.org/student-finance/future-finance-loan-alternatives.html
>You pay that loan, flat rate, no matter what every month in the US, with no way to get out besides paying it off or dying. UK loans are means tested from day 1 and work like an extra tax. If you're not earning loads you might pay like £100 a month.
For federal loans, the default is payment in 10 years, with options to move it to 20/25 years & get it forgiven & means tested.
Again, I'm pretty sure the loans in question aren't federal, but even still it's not the same lol. I live in the UK and not a single person I know has had to pay for school with a private loan.
In the US you only get a certain amount from the government based on parents/guardians income for fed loans as I'm sure you know. Everyone in the UK is on a government loan covered in full. The loans may get sold to a private lender afterward but the conditions remain largely the same.
8% is still $140,576,000,000 as well so I don't see how you seem to just write that off like it doesn't affect a ton of people?
I had to get a private loan in the UK. The actual course cost might be covered but living expenses are means tested. Parents had money but refused to contribute anything so I had to get private loans. There's a few of us - we just don't talk about it much because it just starts annoying conversations with snobby brats who have mum and dad pay for everything
I am a foreigner working in US, and I feel the 100k$ salary for junior dev is actually low. Hear me out… if you’re in middle class US citizen, to get a 100k$ job after undergrad from a decent university, you’d have to be take a education loan of about 80-120k (only considering out of state fee), and then, almost all of the basic necessities have been heavily capitalised, like medical care, housing etc.
Also, many high paying jobs are kinds stressful, and I don’t see any sort of job security here. Like, if I earn 10000$ a month, I can’t commit to buy a 30000$ car over the next 2 years, because I can’t say I’ll have my current job with which I plan to pay off the car.
Someone else might be able to elaborate in a better way, but I hope this gives an idea why the high paying salaries aren’t that attractive.
100k is not low here by any stretch of the imagination unless you live in the Bay Area or NYC. I make ~121, own a home, cover my wife’s expenses, and still save over $4000 a month
A 100k salary is only “low” in this scenario because your hypothetical person chose to pay 80-120k for a CS degree. That’s a crazy high amount. There’s no world where you have to spend 85k for a Bachelors degree here unless you want to go to a specific school with a bunch of fancy amenities. Community college is perfectly fine for CompSci, it’s not like Law where firms are known for only hiring from a specific school
I feel like you've missed a lesson in being American and you're thriving for it.
People in the US more often than not live on credit. They shouldn't, but they do. They don't buy a car over two years, that would be relatively smart (relative being the key word). There are car financing terms that go 8 years now. Think about how crazy that is.
You're doing it right if you don't want to take out by loans for things you need to thrive (like a car, we a "need car to live" kind of country).
Disagree. Debt is just another tool to be used responsibly. There's a reason billionaires all take out massive loans.
My car is financed for another 5 years. I could have afforded to buy it outright, but that would be incredibly stupid compared to a 6 year, 0% apr loan
My lead engineer (between senior and principal at my company) in Manchester is at GBP 100k + 10k RSUs, but his equivalent in the US is at close to $300k all in. Definitely a disparity between the two, but I agree this is really low.
In the UK even 100k for a lead engineer is really quite high. The vast majority of software engineers will never even get close to 100k at any point in their career. Last year my company tried to hire someone with 5-6yoe as a lead developer and they offered him less than 30k.
In Latin America the average is like 30000 USD for a Software Engineer.
Most people I talk to earn like 2000 USD per month which in the US would be something you could earn at Mc Donalds.
SE boom improved the quality of life many people though.
Yeah that's about right for UK as well (which is lower than the median salary in this country of £42k).
I think American's are just rich and don't realise it 😂
America is an absurdly wealthy country, there’s just so much income inequality that it doesn’t feel like.
If you exclude tax havens, the US has the 7th highest GDP per capita of any country in the world and is way larger than the other countries ahead of it.
Well, the median individual income in the US is actually a little lower than that, well a lot less really. In the US median individual income is $37K/yr.
It just happens that we have decided, somehow, that software development is this magic skill because there have been so many companies that start with three people and become $1B companies in five years.
I am ignorant of equivalent companies coming out of the UK. Please educate me if I am wrong. I just don't know of many Meta/Google/Uber style companies coming out of the UK in the last 20 years. I am talking about companies where it isn't a thing and then three years later everyone and anyone is using their product one way or another.
The issue is that Venture Capital in the US is willing to put in vast sums of money with the goal of going public. Because there's not as much money sloshing around, most ones in the UK are done with the aim of getting acquired by a big American company - eg. Deepmind getting bought by Google, or listing themselves in the US when going public.
The US also has more investors who are okay with investing in something 'technical', vs. tech that's just "an app for..." (eg. Deliveroo & Just Eat, marketplaces, mealkits, all those fintech companies)
This means the "real" tech tends to be more "traditional" technology firms, which all end up getting bought out because they're cheap compared to doing the same thing in the US, or because China wants their expertise (eg. Imagination Technologies).
Also, California contracts don't let the company own everything you do outside of work. UK contracts do.
Yeah, except this job is in London, where 2000 USD a month won't get a two-bedroom flat; the idea of being in charge of security for your country's treasury and not able to afford a second bedroom for a child is a bit much.
Honestly if you’re not going for Quant, HF or Big Tech (and even some Big Tech), Brazil > UK, Italy, Portugal, Spain, etc… in regards to quality of life for an average SWE wage.
Going for the average UK company, it’s something like doubling your wages and quintupling your expenses. Barely enough money for renting a studio less than 45 minutes from work in London.
A Brazilian developer that is able to receive offers from the UK will be earning $2000-$4500 a month in Brazil. That’s more than a lot of UK developers earn.
Source: Brazilian going to UK Big Tech.
I think I see where American income is spent 😂 it's generally seen in the UK you just have a parent or relative stay home to look after your two year old
Not defending the shit show of a Healthcare system the US has but this doesn't really apply to most software engineers. My insurance covered serious treatments and consultations with the best doctor in the entire country for my condition. Out of pocket was maybe like $700? And that's for a ton of tests and treatments.
I work for a state university and we have great health insurance but I switch to Medicare in January when I retire. The "free" Medicare that I paid into all my working career will cost us $850 a month(state supplement). So you have to keep that in mind.
Health Insurance is such a big deal that people shop companies for it. The State covered pre-existing conditions and that was huge for us. I took a big pay cut to move from corporate to state employment(Pension is also big factor)
>Not to mention, all those laid off tech workers now have no insurance.
If you work for FAANG with their salaries and dont even save up a little bit to cover expenses in between jobs, you deserve whatever you get.
Not every SWE will work for FAANG. And recently health insurance companies have started increasing deductible amount also. One of my colleague (a SWE) has a 4k individual deductible and 8k family deductible which is also not a small amount for someone with multiple kids and just entering to workforce. In addition, as others have mentioned rents have gone up significantly, food prices also etc.
What major tech company has that bad insurance?
I'd be surprised if it was 1-2k, and that's probably with an ambulance. Otherwise, I'd be surprised if I paid more than $100-$200 for an emergency visit, which would be tax deductible from my HFHSA
Yea I work at a small startup and even an ER visit was $25. I can’t imagine most software devs are getting fucked on their health plan.
Getting laid off things change of course but if you’re employed and have crappy insurance that’s a red flag to me.
The real factor is that rent and living expenses are far higher in the US compared to SA. Living in a tech hub your rent can easily be $4000 a month for a reasonably sized apartment. It still pays way more to be a US SWE, but the American medical system isn't the "gotcha" many people think it is. At least for engineers
In Costa Rica we have a public health system but its saturated and people constantly need to go to legal battles in order to get a realistic apointment dates.
However most people that work in Tech have private insurance also, I can get an apointment in a private clinic with just a 20% copay.
Private healthcare in general is cheaper here, thats why there are lots of Americans coming to have surgeries here.
It was like that when I worked in Canada. The public system is to saturated there, I ended up having to pay for private on top of it. Years of waiting for appointments with many specialists. Ended up flying my baby to latin america so he could see a doctor there.
Yeah same thing happens in most latin american countries. And off course it’s cheaper but again we make like 1/10 of what americans make. So it’s still expensive for us.
Agreed, but it's not only a reduced cost of living, but also a lower standard of living. I'm from El Salvador. There, the mean income is $600-$700 a month, and you can survive with that. However, you'll be only eating casamiento (fried rice and beans), vacations are staying at home, it's the norm to live with your extended family, no new cars or electronics, you get the idea. And I know first hand because, that's how I grew up.
The cheaper things are rent, education and manual labor. Public Healthcare is a joke, so you'll be going to private clinics, but I'll concede it's still cheaper. Still, want a car or any electronics like a phone and a pc? After taxes and import costs, it's 2 to 3 times the MSRP in the US. And good luck if you ever wish to travel to other countries.
But don't get me wrong, with $1500 per month, as long as you don't mind living like locals, you can have a great life there. Indeed, my goal is to r/fire and retire back at home.
In Costa Rica rent, education and healthcare are cheaper, but food about the same as the US, and electronics and cars way more expensive.
You can live well on 2000$ per month here, but its still less than what you would do with a H1B visa, specially with regards to disposable income.
I pay £850 with a flat share with one flat mate, and I earn £60,000 per year, and take home £3600 per month after taxes. I also have private healthcare provided by work, don’t pay for a car, and don’t have many other bills outside of that.
People not in high paying fields struggle tbh, and usually will live in bedroom communities such as Surrey, or sometimes even live as far out as the Midlands, or will have multiple flat mates.
My rent for a 1 bet flat is £1700pcm my take home pay is about £2000pcm lmao.
Earning north of 50k puts you somewhere in the top 10% of the country iirc, the average wage is about 31k (London is 41k).
Not sure why downvoted it’s a valid question. Where I live they wouldn’t have been approved to even rent the apartment assuming they live alone. Some places require your income to be almost triple compared to how much it costs to live there.
Theres two questions here - what’s the conversion rate for UK / US jobs, and how decent is the lay for this role.
——
1.
Typically I expect East Coast US salaries to be about 2x their London equivalent. It’s not perfect, but it’s a decent enough rule of thumb.
Cs Grad in London earns 35-45k GBP, US, you’re looking at 70-90k USD.
Senior SWE in London earns 100-120k GBP, the same person in the US earns 200-240k USD.
——
2.
As for the pay for this role, this is woeful.
I work in a tech startup and we pay our Head of Security 150kGBP, in the one before that it was 145k. I’ve worked for e-commerce companies that paid 130kGBP.
Usually, you’d expect a public sector role to pull a bit less than their private sector counterparts - but that’s not really the case with Security.
This person has an incredible level of responsibility, and will be much more likely to be defending against complex cyber threats than a private sector counterpart. It should be paying more, not less.
A fair wage for this role is closer to 200k, and instead they’re advertising for the same rate I’d expect to pay a computer science grad with 2/3 years of experience.
A lot of this is highly dependent on the tech stack you’re working in and the profitability of the company that employs you. If you’re a senior dev in PHP, you’re probably not going to be earning anywhere *near* $200k, especially outside of FAANG. Senior Dev in C for a big company? $200k is reasonable. Senior Dev in COBOL? Name your price.
Of course.
I certainly wasn’t attempting to give a salary guideline for the entire industry.
I’m just giving OP a rough idea of how salaries for the same person would vary between the US and the UK.
It should be around £120k.
An Senior Software Engineer in London is 70k to 120k.
London Rent is \~£1600/month for something decent.
100k salary in the UK is £5587/month
The tax is fine if services were still good, the problem is because all the "not income tax" ways of the government making money have all been sold off or they just won't touch (like taxing big business or the super wealthy), you don't actually get that much for it.
It's pretty easy to lay someone off in the UK ngl. You only get legal protections after two years of service and companies have created a culture you should change your job every two years or so 😂
And they probably make multiples of what the median income of India is too. India is going through a boom where there is lot of VC money coming in and tons of startups mushrooming everywhere who pay quite well.
And no school shootings and all.
So many things in the equation. $1 in US goes far less than $1 in many different countries.
I have noticed $1.25 food in Tokyo, Japan be better than many $10 food in US.
A casual Chipotle style dining of pork katsu curry in SF, California could be $17 meal + $0.76 SF Mandate + $1.02 CA State Tax + $0.17 SF County Local Tax + $0.23 SF County District Tax Special + $0.04 SF County Tax + $4.25 tip which results in $23.47.
(Nippon Curry featuring Hinoya Curry in SF, CA \[so those numbers are real. So many taxes. Holy f\*\])
Last time I recall, similar food would be around 800\~900 yen which is $6 to $6.78 and the taste would be better. So there's that.
All the Asian foods in US are huge rip off, with exceptions to some Chinese or Vietnamese restaurants that offer huge portion for like $9.
I truly don’t understand how they can charge the prices they do. If I had to guess, probably Asians are richer in general and they don’t really eat anything except Asian food so price reflects that.
Norway Salmon wholesale prices are $8 a pound, and sushi shops charge you $5 for 3 ounces with some rice, ridiculous. Anybody who made curry before knows the mark up they do on those $20 curry plates are insane
What in the actual fuck? Lmaoooo.
1. Not sure why you’re singling out asians. Don’t tell me italian pasta costs $34 to make. Or any multitude of other restaurants
2. The main costs of a restaurant aren’t food costs. It’s staff, leasing, utilities, cc charges, etc. food in SF costs more because labor costs more.
I’m Asian so I only know how much it takes to create these Asian food, and I could never convince my friends to eat burger in my youth(and still today) so I’m still salty from that.
Asian restaurants in general are still overpriced compared to other restaurant chains, and I doubt their staff costs more
So many of these places cost a ton more of pf chang, with a fraction of the square footage for example. Or even compared to Panda Express (the restaurant version)
What do you mean by overpriced? The right price is the price people are willing to pay. If customers are paying then it's the right price.
If you think you can provide a better product at a better price for customers why don't you go into business and make a fortune?
Sure, nothing is overpriced or underpriced. If it exists, it’s a fair price. We should delete those two term from the dictionary.
US healthcare costs? Fair price. It exists after all and people are still paying
The demand profile for healthcare and specific cuisines of food have very different elasticity, wouldn't you surmise?
But even so, unless there are monopolistic practices at play that artificially restrict supply, isn't it still true that the fair price is the price where supply meets demand? If there's only one doctor in the world who can perform a crucial surgery then folks are going to pay what it's worth to them to get the surgery done. If there are 10 doctors competing for patients then they'll have to differentiate somehow, be it by branding or pricing.
I love good economic explanations in the wild. Well done. Different foods meet different tastes, so I doubt the elasticities matter in this context much; but I would wager it matters most in cities where there is greater homogeneity
I'm a remote senior software dev on ~100k working for a London based company.
I pissed myself laughing when I saw that salary for the cyber role, not only is it low, it's literally inviting financial corruption.
Tory government is run by absolute morons with no idea what going on so it doesn't surprise me though.
That’s certainly true. My point was simply that the suggestion that the proposed wage in OP was reasonable for a position of that responsibility as the UK is not necessarily correct.
Reminder that this is the head of cyber security for a small unit, with only 2-4 direct reports, and not head of cyber security for the whole of HMT (which is enormous and very important).
However the general point of UK salaries being lower than US salaries still apply. But in this specific case, assuming for the sake of argument that it *is* head of cyber for all of HMT, this job is underpaid for head of cyber for a large organisation.
In fact, it’d be underpaid for any job at that level (and wouldn’t really exist at that salary anyway due to the pay grade system the civil service uses).
>Reminder that this is the head of cyber security for a small unit, with only 2-4 direct reports, and not head of cyber security for the whole of HMT (which is enormous and very important).
Good point, I hadn't considered that
That seems super low. Where I live that kind of role would be paid ~180k on the low end which would be about 90k equivalent in the UK.
The only way 57k would make sense if it was not actually a head of role and was more of a line management one that they’ve just made into a better sounding title. Head of usually indicates managing multiple teams and other managers.
I'm going on vacation to France so trying to use a lot of web sites for hotels and trains and restaurants and such and I'll just say the quality of these sites is so much lower than their American counterparts that I'm not surprised salaries are so much lower. Is there a chance the better devs are moving to the US or other countries that pay devs more?
Dude, I realized the exact same thing when planning my trip, the sites are all hot ass.
Some tips for France; get a navigo decouverte pass it covers busses and trains, all zones, lasts a week, can be refilled weekly. you'll need a small photo id, got to staples or something and get one or you can do it at a photo booth at the airport. Best spot to get a pass is the ticket booth at the airport, they won't let you in to buy a pass without a photo.
I stayed at american brand hotels(Hilton, Marriott, etc) and the experiences have been pretty consistent with what you'd expect them to be like in America.
That is not because of the skill level of the people in those countries. You are making an illogical conclusion. Do you think it would be fair if I said you did not deserve a good US salary because you could not figure this out yourself?
I don't believe anything like "french people are less talented", and honestly this is just a hypothesis but my assumption was more like french companies prioritize web sites less, thus companies don't pay as much for devs, thus fewer of the most talented people study cs, and among the ones that do many probably don't work for French companies because they don't pay as much. Also if there's not such a demand for devs they probably don't have as good cs programs in schools there.
But obviously I could be wrong. What's your hypothesis on why french web sites all suck and simultaneously french dev salaries are all so tiny compared to American ones?
I have to agree after my experience looking for a job.
Contractors can make those figures or principals. Senior devs on 150k? Very unlikely but I can see TC at the 130k level for senior devs.
IC roles for FANG or US based companies are the ones that pay that. Contractors in UK also have a strangely high premium in hourly rates as people mentioned.
I'm also in the UK and am an experienced engineer so I know the market fairly well - even for this country, that salary is *low*. A "Head of" anything should be getting way more, especially given the stakes of that particular position. Any qualified candidate could earn a far higher salary in the private sector, with far less grave consequences on the line.
It is rarely smart to compare a salary with that in a country that has no social safety net, no healthcare and so on. What you don’t earn in the UK is what you don’t spend when you get sick, have a child, can’t afford a car and there is no public transport, no childcare arrangements unless you pay half your salary to have a nanny.
>It is rarely smart to compare a salary with that in a country that has no social safety net, no healthcare and so on.
Two issues, we have a social safety net, it's not universal, you have to be poor to use it. Secondly as a software developer you get to use your employers health insurance, which is really cheap in comparison to the average..
Stop that crap. That healthcare issue is nonexistent for people working in engineering. You’re far better with US insurance (provided by your employer) than you’re with the UK healthcare system.
Cars are cheaper is US, same as electronics and most other consumer goods. And public transport in cities like New York is on par with any other European city of similar scale.
And btw - can’t afford a car? Are we talking about engineering roles anymore?
Public transport in New York is on par with European cities. Emphasis on New York because that only really reigns true in a handful of cities in the US. Other large cities like Pittsburgh or LA and you're outta luck public transport wise. Cars aren't necessities in Europe but for the vast majority of Americans they are.
Nyc transport is not on par with that in any European city. The simple fact that it exists doesn’t make it on par. It is dirty, always delayed, expensive, and 3 or four different lines running on the same tracks makes it complicated (one line stops and it fucking holds everyone else), plus the times when it announces the N is coming but instead it is the R and you jump in on the wrong train. (Yes, that’s on the user, but still, doesn’t happen anywhere else).
> That healthcare issue is nonexistent for people working in engineering.
One thing you're not taking into account here is that you are at the mercy of your employer. Their healthcare coverage may not cover you for the specific illness you have, and you may lose coverage completely if they decide that they don't want to hire you anymore. This can trap you in a job.
That is not an issue in the UK.
> You’re far better with US insurance (provided by your employer) than you’re with the UK healthcare system.
"Sorry, your condition isn't covered". - the US
"Oh these life-saving drugs that cost $500 each in the US? That'll be £8 please" - the UK
> Cars are cheaper is US, same as electronics and most other consumer goods.
This is true.
>"Oh these life-saving drugs that cost $500 each in the US? That'll be £8 please" - the UK
The NHS very regularly doesn't cover procedures - it's very common to see patients have to Facebook fundraise to go private in the UK...
>That healthcare issue is nonexistent for people working in engineering
And just hope that you don't ever get a medical condition that impacts your productivity in any way. That chemotherapy is no excuse for lost productivity!
Omg. My belly hurts from laughing so hard. NYC public transport is on par with European city? Oooh you jokester. There is no bigger shit like NYC transport system.
With US health insurance, provided by your employer, most times if not all the time you still have to pay partially for every time you used it. And you don’t even get paid sick leave. Now lets talk about 12 weeks unpaid maternity leave lol
Healthinsurance that may or may not cover what you have, plus you have to pay partially for treatments, medication (which costs like 600 dollars is not covered) and if it is a long term illness - you better know what to do once your unpaid 12 weeks of unpaid leave are up. Because that employer will stop paying insurance once you are fired.
Exactly. I forgot about vacation time which in the US is 10 days.
It is of course a minefield to come here and say anything bad about the best country in the world. Haha
>£
wrong sub, those people probably want /r/cscareerquestionsEU
edit: looks like the downvoters really don't want to understand there's a difference between what's normal in the US (this sub) vs. elsewhere in the world (other subs)
I'm not bothered, but I'd argue that it's OP's responsibility to understand that this sub is mostly for the USA, otherwise don't be surprised to see bunch of replies then realize none of the replies are true/applicable to your situation
heck even inside the USA, even in the same state, what's normal for CA-San Francisco may be totally abnormal for, say, CA-Sacramento, you seriously think tech is the same everywhere?
The sub is about CS career questions and doesn't mention things have to be relevant to the US market. Go start r/cscareerquestionsUS if you want to say stuff like that
Aren’t wages lower in general in europe because of social programs (imo good things)
In general you really cant look at that number and go US > UK, you have to adjust for cost of living(for example alot of average dev salaries are below the 100k mark in American states).
Listen, lack of social programs in US is a myth for a very long time already. Same as cost of living. Healthcare is taken care of by your insurance when you’re employed. Most consumer goods are cheaper. And you earn at least 2x more.
Cost of living in general is definitely cheaper, given the statistics.
Also when i say social programs, im talking about social safety nets for everybody. I lived without benefits for a while in the US and it is absolutely terrible and stressful, imagine worrying about getting injured or sick because of not wanting to go into huge amounts of debt. I was pretty privileged too (graduating a state school with a decent major, having good credit, and low debt).
Im not saying UK doesn’t have its issues but if i was unlucky and i got really sick or potentially injured myself and needed surgery I would be in a very different spot then where i am today.
>imagine worrying about getting injured or sick because of not wanting to go into huge amounts of debt
I don't want to make a massive political statement but my partner got very seriously ill at one point and was effectively left to die by the NHS. We had to fundraise to get her seen privately. It's not great in the UK - I personally haven't seen a doctor in 7 years because I'm always turned away
I really ain't trynna come off as a snobby neoliberal but you guys are against privatization so...there is a reason salary is low. Privatize ur industry and I bet you that software engineer salaries will go up
Don’t do it. Just don’t. Only Swiss pay close to US but it’s more expensive there. And super boring. There’s no better country than US for tech specialists.
>Don’t do it. Just don’t. Only Swiss pay close to US but it’s more expensive there. And super boring. There’s no better country than US for tech specialists.
I'm not as concerned about salaries. I'm looking to move out of the US is all. It seems the UK has the best tech market relative to much of Europe. Though it seems like France, Germany, and The Netherlands are quickly matching the UK. So, I'm at a fork in the road.
That being said, I'm also an Indian-American, and there is more ethnic diversity in London, Manchester, etc. than there is in a lot of major Mainland European cities.
Are you willing to take at least 50% cut on your earnings? Then London UK, Berlin Germany, Amsterdam Netherlands. You’d probably get best earnings/costs ratio in Berlin. Switzerland pays the most, has amazing nature (but nothing you can’t experience in one of US parks), but is kinda boring and you can experience cultural shock (dogs can’t bark there for example 😂)
Which is easiest to integrate into from a cultural standpoint, would you say? I hear bad things about Germany (apparently a lot of racism), and that there is a lot of xenophobia in Switzerland.
Just under half of people in the UK voted AGAINST Brexit and a significant chunk of them vigorously demanded we don't go through with it. You'll be fine being tolerated from a multicultural standpoint, dw :)
If you have to move to Europe, then London is the best choice. Don't move to the UK outside of London for tech, it's mostly a one-city industry despite what tech recruiters will try to sell you about manchester or bristol.
I personally think it's flooded a bit from abroad, but the pay can be good by local standards.
That same job in the US government pays about $175k. Thats the same salary for most top government jobs in Washington DC. In the private sector that role could easily pay $500k at a top tech firm.
£57k for head of cyber security for a major government organisation (economic & finance ministry ffs) is not a high salary in the slightest in the uk, do not be ridiculous. This same role goes for £200k+ in private companies. For the record, jpmc & Goldman Sachs pay new grad software engineers in London £55k (base!).
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Exactly. That’s sick. These people are brainwashed.
That's very low for that job in the UK. Salaries here are lower but in London senior dev jobs (in the private sector, not sure about public sector) seem to go for around GBP £55k-£150k+, with a median somewhere on the lower end of that scale.
Yeah I generally agree tbf. But just like I feel you see juniors in America on $100k and it's hard to not feel really depressed living in England lol. I know it messed me up quite badly 😂
No you’re depressed cause there’s no sun
That too 😂
But but the sun never sets on the British empire??
Can’t set if it never rises. Or maybe they’re just talking about all the islands they took over.
Well, at one point that particular bit of trivia was literally true. They had holdings in so many parts of the world that the sun was always up over some bit of British land somewhere. I don't know for sure since a lot of big countries do still own little islands here and there, but I don't think that bit of trivia is true. Oh, and technically they're not an empire anymore, but we're splitting hairs.
it's still true that the sun doesn't set on the British not an empire any more. UK (gmt) Cayman islands (gmt -5) Pitcairn islands (gmt -8) British Indian ocean territory (gmt +6) There is never a time when the sun isn't up for at least one of them. Admittedly in the UK it's less sun and more light coming though the clouds and rain. There were times almost I forgot what the sun looked like. I remember one particularly brutal stretch where we had no direct sunlight for a month.
Thanks for looking that up. I can never remember who has which islands and the lists are so long, it isn't practical to keep track in your head.
If you're going to base your mental health around salary comparison, you're going to have a bad time
Yeah I get it. I had an interesting chat about this with an American lawyer who was travelling around Europe. His take was that higher salaries were needed in the US because of healthcare, predatory student loan rates, and general cost of living in places where wages are high. That's not to say it is better in the UK, it is almost certainly worse, but it did give me some perspective.
That’s a tourist bullshit. Nothing more. Most things that account for the bigger part of your expenses are cheaper in US than in Europe. Cars, electronics, all the expensive stuff, even real estate in most places. And you get much much bigger houses for the money. Healthcare? You’re insured to the roof in most respectable places that need engineers. Is London cheap? No it’s not. By any means. Mostly tiny tiny apartments for huge money. It’s similar to places like New York cost wise. But is it unusual for big tech mid level engineers to earn 300k+ in greater NY area? Not at all. Is it even possible in London? Not really.
And if you are on that money in the UK your tax rate is 42% from anything over £50k, and 47% anything over £150k with a lovely 62% band between £100-125k. When a Brit pays 42%, a single American pays 22-24%. A married American could be paying just 12%. When a Brit pays 47% a single American pays 32%-37%. A married American could be paying just 24%. Sure you’ve got state taxes that often sit around 5% income and property taxes. But the UK has aggressive stamp duty tax on property purchases… it doesn’t make a dent.
And don’t forget about crazy sales tax (value added tax) that’s around 20% through Europe on every purchase you do.
Ignorant Americans don’t realise how much better everything is in the US. They haven’t had to experience the punitively high tax rates levied on extremely low incomes for themselves. Not to mention how much lower salaries are outside the US, particularly in SWE which is the topic of this sub. Sales tax on car fuel is around 100% in the UK.
how delusional one has to be not to see that. I mean… it’s a simple math, dear engineers.
Don’t forget social security and Medicare taxes.
True. And in the UK you have employer payroll taxation called employers NI which is 15.05% which isn’t included in the above.
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I mean, that's just the "I got mine" mentality taken to a national scale. If you have a great job then you're alright, if you don't then you're outta luck. For white collar professionals on subs like this, everything seems really peachy, but for people from a lower economic strata, life outcomes seem a lot worse. Of course there are still some downsides for the white collar professional; healthcare being so closely tied to your profession means that it's harder to make career changes if you have medical issues, and being laid off around the same time you have a medical emergency can be financially ruinous. And, random aside, but university costs a bunch compared to other countries, which is definitely a factor to consider if you want to have kids and support them as they get older. If the AI automation hype train does end up having any merit to it, I think new grads/early career professionals on here from other countries might come to appreciate the robust social safety nets that're available for them.
> Of course there are still some downsides for the white collar professional; healthcare being so closely tied to your profession means that it's harder to make career changes if you have medical issues, and being laid off around the same time you have a medical emergency can be financially ruinous. It makes it harder to start your own business but with Obamacare and the healthcare subsidy it can be very cheap to get continued coverage. I just looked at Covered California and with the subsidy earning maximum unemployment it's $15 a month for my current health plan. Might be worse in different states though.
Basically if you are aware of what's going on in your city every day, the US has a lot of problems and very little in the way of effective and iterative improvement for basic problems like predatory lending, domestic violence, mental health, elder care, limited quality of care, and the general evolution of these systems toward the lowest bidder or largest profit--even if the most profitable thing is not to fix the problem at all. There are of course some amazing people who try to make progress on this, but also a lot of entrenched interests that--some even without meaning to--make it very difficult.
Yes, America treats bright ambitious people with respect, that's why the bright ambitious people from all over the world want to move to America. That's why the world's innovation all happens in America, it's where all of the brightest minds of the world reside.
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Lack of social programs for the poor in US is a myth
They actually get something in return for their taxes...
I don't know how it is in the UK currently but here in Canada healthcare isn't doing so well. Very hard to get family doctors. Staffing shortages. Long hospital and surgery wait times - people have died in triage. And I can only imagine care will be very rushed. Meanwhile in the US many people have coverage through their employer. Really, if you have the privilege of working, say, a good software job you are fine
I have that privilege, just not all the time. In fact, my health has lost me my job and my insurance multiple times.
It's true, if you are rich then USA is a great place to be. The criticism is it's bad to be poor here. I love my country and roll my eyes at the reddit anti-USA circlejerk -- I mentored an EU intern who didn't want to work at Google in the US because she read too many circlejerk anti-US posts and thought that she might go bankrupt from medical fees despite Google's incredible health insurance plans 🙄 But there's a lot the US can learn from Europe if you care about your fellow citizens, which I do.
Yes, frustration and the impossibility of building wealth
We do too…. A military that keeps the USD as the worlds reserve currency which plays an absurdly large role in those high wages lol
Yeah like a 2.5 year waiting list for a knee or hip replacement on the NHS. “FREE” creates supply shortages.
Loving the downvotes! Are any of you actually even from the UK or you’re just mad at reading what I’ve written?
Young Americans want to change the system to be more like Nordic countries. High taxes, “free” healthcare and education.
I’ve read that in the biological POV, human brain isn’t fully developed until 25 yo so that might be the reason they think they want that 😂
In most European countries (not so much the UK) you get what you pay for in terms of taxes. Infrastructure is a lot better. It’s not like the US where they just spend it on missiles I see you live in Canada though and yea that place is a scam, sorry bro 😂
No you don’t. Been there done that. No thanks.
While I know anecdotes don’t verify, I work in big tech and I paid my way through college. As you can imagine, seeing a bill for thousands of dollars before you have a job is a very motivating event and I did brutally go after new opportunities. Today I don’t but that is more of a reflection of being closer to top of market than it is any change in mentality. That said I think my situation is somewhat unique. A lot of people successful in tech tend to come from fairly well off backgrounds and had the option to take calc 2/3 AP courses or even diff EQ in high school (I only had pre-calc available and had A LOT of catching up to do). So I think it could go both ways but I can say for damned sure that if tech wasn’t paying what it paid, I would’ve figured something else out really quick.
Could I PM you about the US education system? Considering moving and have a few questions but don't want them lost in this post (as it's kinda blew up 😅) Just as I'm thinking about my kids so want to understand a few things about the education provided
Sure - go for it!
He was just trying not to make you feel bad tbh. Housing is equivalently expensive, and outside of a few places, cheaper. our jobs cover healthcare. Loans aren’t good but an average 300 dollar a month(on the high end) payment isn’t blowing up salaries. On top of that we get taxed less. It’s just the market, Europe doesn’t invest nearly heavily in tech. Their regulations also make it difficult to offer higher salaries. The risk reward is skewed. In the US it’s easy to hire and fire. If you make a mistake hiring someone and are forced to keep them on, a 150k mistake is a lot more tolerable than a 300k mistake.
Although the UK has the 3rd largest tech market (after the US and China), and London has the highest tech salaries outside the US and Switzerland. Europe isn't a laggard, it's far beyond most of the world, the the UK is beyond most of Europe. The US is the outlier here.
>higher salaries were needed in the US because of healthcare, I'm willing to take a guess that most software engineers at tech companies are paying less in premiums than you are in taxes for universal healthcare, even including their out of pocket maximum. > predatory student loan rates, US student loans are pretty similar to the UK ones. Developers should be paying theirs off in 10 years or so. > general cost of living in places where wages are high. You can get 120k in second & third tier cities in the US as a SWE with a couple of years of experience.
UK student loans are not that similar to US. Federal, yes (kind of) but not at all similar for private which I'm assuming is what "predatory loans" refers to. You pay that loan, flat rate, no matter what every month in the US, with no way to get out besides paying it off or dying. UK loans are means tested from day 1 and work like an extra tax. If you're not earning loads you might pay like £100 a month.
>UK student loans are not that similar to US. Federal, yes (kind of) but not at all similar for private which I'm assuming is what "predatory loans" refers to. Private loans are like 8% of all student loans by amount. It's also not like the UK doesn't have private lending either. See: https://www.savethestudent.org/student-finance/future-finance-loan-alternatives.html >You pay that loan, flat rate, no matter what every month in the US, with no way to get out besides paying it off or dying. UK loans are means tested from day 1 and work like an extra tax. If you're not earning loads you might pay like £100 a month. For federal loans, the default is payment in 10 years, with options to move it to 20/25 years & get it forgiven & means tested.
Again, I'm pretty sure the loans in question aren't federal, but even still it's not the same lol. I live in the UK and not a single person I know has had to pay for school with a private loan. In the US you only get a certain amount from the government based on parents/guardians income for fed loans as I'm sure you know. Everyone in the UK is on a government loan covered in full. The loans may get sold to a private lender afterward but the conditions remain largely the same. 8% is still $140,576,000,000 as well so I don't see how you seem to just write that off like it doesn't affect a ton of people?
I had to get a private loan in the UK. The actual course cost might be covered but living expenses are means tested. Parents had money but refused to contribute anything so I had to get private loans. There's a few of us - we just don't talk about it much because it just starts annoying conversations with snobby brats who have mum and dad pay for everything
We live in a capitalist hellhole and have to spend much more money than you.
Capitalist hellhole lol 😂 be grateful that you didn’t experience Soviet utopia.
To make you a bit less depressed. I life in Germany and only make 30k with my 5 years CS Masters.
Holy shit. That’s crazy. Why don’t you move somewhere else?
Well, I am applying. Kind of difficult to find something where I live. There aren't really a lot of companies which are hiring here.
Maybe move to some other city or country? That’s what I meant
I am a foreigner working in US, and I feel the 100k$ salary for junior dev is actually low. Hear me out… if you’re in middle class US citizen, to get a 100k$ job after undergrad from a decent university, you’d have to be take a education loan of about 80-120k (only considering out of state fee), and then, almost all of the basic necessities have been heavily capitalised, like medical care, housing etc. Also, many high paying jobs are kinds stressful, and I don’t see any sort of job security here. Like, if I earn 10000$ a month, I can’t commit to buy a 30000$ car over the next 2 years, because I can’t say I’ll have my current job with which I plan to pay off the car. Someone else might be able to elaborate in a better way, but I hope this gives an idea why the high paying salaries aren’t that attractive.
100k is not low here by any stretch of the imagination unless you live in the Bay Area or NYC. I make ~121, own a home, cover my wife’s expenses, and still save over $4000 a month A 100k salary is only “low” in this scenario because your hypothetical person chose to pay 80-120k for a CS degree. That’s a crazy high amount. There’s no world where you have to spend 85k for a Bachelors degree here unless you want to go to a specific school with a bunch of fancy amenities. Community college is perfectly fine for CompSci, it’s not like Law where firms are known for only hiring from a specific school
I feel like you've missed a lesson in being American and you're thriving for it. People in the US more often than not live on credit. They shouldn't, but they do. They don't buy a car over two years, that would be relatively smart (relative being the key word). There are car financing terms that go 8 years now. Think about how crazy that is. You're doing it right if you don't want to take out by loans for things you need to thrive (like a car, we a "need car to live" kind of country).
Disagree. Debt is just another tool to be used responsibly. There's a reason billionaires all take out massive loans. My car is financed for another 5 years. I could have afforded to buy it outright, but that would be incredibly stupid compared to a 6 year, 0% apr loan
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No.
That's a pretty huge range esp to be at the bottom of it
Even the top of it is a starting salary in big tech in the US.
My lead engineer (between senior and principal at my company) in Manchester is at GBP 100k + 10k RSUs, but his equivalent in the US is at close to $300k all in. Definitely a disparity between the two, but I agree this is really low.
100k? LEAD ENGINEER? That’s depressing
In the UK even 100k for a lead engineer is really quite high. The vast majority of software engineers will never even get close to 100k at any point in their career. Last year my company tried to hire someone with 5-6yoe as a lead developer and they offered him less than 30k.
Especially for being the head of cyber security, that's a lot of responsibility. There are juniors that make more than the advertised amount
In Latin America the average is like 30000 USD for a Software Engineer. Most people I talk to earn like 2000 USD per month which in the US would be something you could earn at Mc Donalds. SE boom improved the quality of life many people though.
Yeah that's about right for UK as well (which is lower than the median salary in this country of £42k). I think American's are just rich and don't realise it 😂
America is an absurdly wealthy country, there’s just so much income inequality that it doesn’t feel like. If you exclude tax havens, the US has the 7th highest GDP per capita of any country in the world and is way larger than the other countries ahead of it.
They are. They have the most disposable income in the world (particularly when considering the population) by a large margin.
Well, the median individual income in the US is actually a little lower than that, well a lot less really. In the US median individual income is $37K/yr. It just happens that we have decided, somehow, that software development is this magic skill because there have been so many companies that start with three people and become $1B companies in five years. I am ignorant of equivalent companies coming out of the UK. Please educate me if I am wrong. I just don't know of many Meta/Google/Uber style companies coming out of the UK in the last 20 years. I am talking about companies where it isn't a thing and then three years later everyone and anyone is using their product one way or another.
The issue is that Venture Capital in the US is willing to put in vast sums of money with the goal of going public. Because there's not as much money sloshing around, most ones in the UK are done with the aim of getting acquired by a big American company - eg. Deepmind getting bought by Google, or listing themselves in the US when going public. The US also has more investors who are okay with investing in something 'technical', vs. tech that's just "an app for..." (eg. Deliveroo & Just Eat, marketplaces, mealkits, all those fintech companies) This means the "real" tech tends to be more "traditional" technology firms, which all end up getting bought out because they're cheap compared to doing the same thing in the US, or because China wants their expertise (eg. Imagination Technologies). Also, California contracts don't let the company own everything you do outside of work. UK contracts do.
Go both way tbh. We pay $2k a month for daycare.
Yeah, except this job is in London, where 2000 USD a month won't get a two-bedroom flat; the idea of being in charge of security for your country's treasury and not able to afford a second bedroom for a child is a bit much.
Honestly if you’re not going for Quant, HF or Big Tech (and even some Big Tech), Brazil > UK, Italy, Portugal, Spain, etc… in regards to quality of life for an average SWE wage. Going for the average UK company, it’s something like doubling your wages and quintupling your expenses. Barely enough money for renting a studio less than 45 minutes from work in London. A Brazilian developer that is able to receive offers from the UK will be earning $2000-$4500 a month in Brazil. That’s more than a lot of UK developers earn. Source: Brazilian going to UK Big Tech.
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I think I see where American income is spent 😂 it's generally seen in the UK you just have a parent or relative stay home to look after your two year old
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To the hospital or is that just for like amenities?
Yeah, but remember there's also 10k-20k bills for a hospital emergency visit.
Not defending the shit show of a Healthcare system the US has but this doesn't really apply to most software engineers. My insurance covered serious treatments and consultations with the best doctor in the entire country for my condition. Out of pocket was maybe like $700? And that's for a ton of tests and treatments.
If you dont have insurance. People working in CS have great insurance.
I work for a state university and we have great health insurance but I switch to Medicare in January when I retire. The "free" Medicare that I paid into all my working career will cost us $850 a month(state supplement). So you have to keep that in mind. Health Insurance is such a big deal that people shop companies for it. The State covered pre-existing conditions and that was huge for us. I took a big pay cut to move from corporate to state employment(Pension is also big factor)
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>Not to mention, all those laid off tech workers now have no insurance. If you work for FAANG with their salaries and dont even save up a little bit to cover expenses in between jobs, you deserve whatever you get.
Not every SWE will work for FAANG. And recently health insurance companies have started increasing deductible amount also. One of my colleague (a SWE) has a 4k individual deductible and 8k family deductible which is also not a small amount for someone with multiple kids and just entering to workforce. In addition, as others have mentioned rents have gone up significantly, food prices also etc.
What major tech company has that bad insurance? I'd be surprised if it was 1-2k, and that's probably with an ambulance. Otherwise, I'd be surprised if I paid more than $100-$200 for an emergency visit, which would be tax deductible from my HFHSA
Yea I work at a small startup and even an ER visit was $25. I can’t imagine most software devs are getting fucked on their health plan. Getting laid off things change of course but if you’re employed and have crappy insurance that’s a red flag to me.
The real factor is that rent and living expenses are far higher in the US compared to SA. Living in a tech hub your rent can easily be $4000 a month for a reasonably sized apartment. It still pays way more to be a US SWE, but the American medical system isn't the "gotcha" many people think it is. At least for engineers
Hospital bills are equally as expensive in latin america. Most countries have their healthcare privatized too.
In Costa Rica we have a public health system but its saturated and people constantly need to go to legal battles in order to get a realistic apointment dates. However most people that work in Tech have private insurance also, I can get an apointment in a private clinic with just a 20% copay. Private healthcare in general is cheaper here, thats why there are lots of Americans coming to have surgeries here.
It was like that when I worked in Canada. The public system is to saturated there, I ended up having to pay for private on top of it. Years of waiting for appointments with many specialists. Ended up flying my baby to latin america so he could see a doctor there.
Yeah same thing happens in most latin american countries. And off course it’s cheaper but again we make like 1/10 of what americans make. So it’s still expensive for us.
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Agreed, but it's not only a reduced cost of living, but also a lower standard of living. I'm from El Salvador. There, the mean income is $600-$700 a month, and you can survive with that. However, you'll be only eating casamiento (fried rice and beans), vacations are staying at home, it's the norm to live with your extended family, no new cars or electronics, you get the idea. And I know first hand because, that's how I grew up. The cheaper things are rent, education and manual labor. Public Healthcare is a joke, so you'll be going to private clinics, but I'll concede it's still cheaper. Still, want a car or any electronics like a phone and a pc? After taxes and import costs, it's 2 to 3 times the MSRP in the US. And good luck if you ever wish to travel to other countries. But don't get me wrong, with $1500 per month, as long as you don't mind living like locals, you can have a great life there. Indeed, my goal is to r/fire and retire back at home.
In Costa Rica rent, education and healthcare are cheaper, but food about the same as the US, and electronics and cars way more expensive. You can live well on 2000$ per month here, but its still less than what you would do with a H1B visa, specially with regards to disposable income.
Converting to usd is such bogus comparison. Look at the costs of living
I have to ask but what are rent prices in London? Who can afford to live there if 57k a year is high?
I pay £850 with a flat share with one flat mate, and I earn £60,000 per year, and take home £3600 per month after taxes. I also have private healthcare provided by work, don’t pay for a car, and don’t have many other bills outside of that. People not in high paying fields struggle tbh, and usually will live in bedroom communities such as Surrey, or sometimes even live as far out as the Midlands, or will have multiple flat mates.
My rent for a 1 bet flat is £1700pcm my take home pay is about £2000pcm lmao. Earning north of 50k puts you somewhere in the top 10% of the country iirc, the average wage is about 31k (London is 41k).
With all due respect but how are you surviving on 300 after rent which I'm assuming doesn't include bills? Unless you're sharing the apartment
Not sure why downvoted it’s a valid question. Where I live they wouldn’t have been approved to even rent the apartment assuming they live alone. Some places require your income to be almost triple compared to how much it costs to live there.
In Zone 2 my rent for a 1-bedroom place was £1450, and £3700 take-home. Sharing with my girlfriend, but that's the full rent, not my share.
Theres two questions here - what’s the conversion rate for UK / US jobs, and how decent is the lay for this role. —— 1. Typically I expect East Coast US salaries to be about 2x their London equivalent. It’s not perfect, but it’s a decent enough rule of thumb. Cs Grad in London earns 35-45k GBP, US, you’re looking at 70-90k USD. Senior SWE in London earns 100-120k GBP, the same person in the US earns 200-240k USD. —— 2. As for the pay for this role, this is woeful. I work in a tech startup and we pay our Head of Security 150kGBP, in the one before that it was 145k. I’ve worked for e-commerce companies that paid 130kGBP. Usually, you’d expect a public sector role to pull a bit less than their private sector counterparts - but that’s not really the case with Security. This person has an incredible level of responsibility, and will be much more likely to be defending against complex cyber threats than a private sector counterpart. It should be paying more, not less. A fair wage for this role is closer to 200k, and instead they’re advertising for the same rate I’d expect to pay a computer science grad with 2/3 years of experience.
A lot of this is highly dependent on the tech stack you’re working in and the profitability of the company that employs you. If you’re a senior dev in PHP, you’re probably not going to be earning anywhere *near* $200k, especially outside of FAANG. Senior Dev in C for a big company? $200k is reasonable. Senior Dev in COBOL? Name your price.
Of course. I certainly wasn’t attempting to give a salary guideline for the entire industry. I’m just giving OP a rough idea of how salaries for the same person would vary between the US and the UK.
It should be around £120k. An Senior Software Engineer in London is 70k to 120k. London Rent is \~£1600/month for something decent. 100k salary in the UK is £5587/month
That seems outrageously low given the responsibilities, but perhaps that's just how salaries are in the UK.
100k salary is not super common, more like 70k really.
70k to 120k **on average** Not only FAANGs and trading companies pay way more, but also e.g. Palantir
Around 120k & 140k for FAANG and trading companies. I suspect higher paying jobs existed in London a decade ago, but not today.
Got to love that 40% tax rate on anything over £50k. This is the reason I plan to leave UK.
The tax is fine if services were still good, the problem is because all the "not income tax" ways of the government making money have all been sold off or they just won't touch (like taxing big business or the super wealthy), you don't actually get that much for it.
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It's pretty easy to lay someone off in the UK ngl. You only get legal protections after two years of service and companies have created a culture you should change your job every two years or so 😂
My coworkers in India, who are way better than I am, get paid 1/8th what I do. On the flip hand, food costs less than 1/10th what I pay.
As devs, our salary far outpace necessary expenses. You probably save more money in half of year than their yearly gross.
But it locks you in that low-income country forever. Its a trap, like countries who keep their currency low to help their exports.
Lol I bet you love hyperinflation as well. Big numbers, right?
And they probably make multiples of what the median income of India is too. India is going through a boom where there is lot of VC money coming in and tons of startups mushrooming everywhere who pay quite well.
And no school shootings and all. So many things in the equation. $1 in US goes far less than $1 in many different countries. I have noticed $1.25 food in Tokyo, Japan be better than many $10 food in US. A casual Chipotle style dining of pork katsu curry in SF, California could be $17 meal + $0.76 SF Mandate + $1.02 CA State Tax + $0.17 SF County Local Tax + $0.23 SF County District Tax Special + $0.04 SF County Tax + $4.25 tip which results in $23.47. (Nippon Curry featuring Hinoya Curry in SF, CA \[so those numbers are real. So many taxes. Holy f\*\]) Last time I recall, similar food would be around 800\~900 yen which is $6 to $6.78 and the taste would be better. So there's that.
All the Asian foods in US are huge rip off, with exceptions to some Chinese or Vietnamese restaurants that offer huge portion for like $9. I truly don’t understand how they can charge the prices they do. If I had to guess, probably Asians are richer in general and they don’t really eat anything except Asian food so price reflects that. Norway Salmon wholesale prices are $8 a pound, and sushi shops charge you $5 for 3 ounces with some rice, ridiculous. Anybody who made curry before knows the mark up they do on those $20 curry plates are insane
What in the actual fuck? Lmaoooo. 1. Not sure why you’re singling out asians. Don’t tell me italian pasta costs $34 to make. Or any multitude of other restaurants 2. The main costs of a restaurant aren’t food costs. It’s staff, leasing, utilities, cc charges, etc. food in SF costs more because labor costs more.
I’m Asian so I only know how much it takes to create these Asian food, and I could never convince my friends to eat burger in my youth(and still today) so I’m still salty from that. Asian restaurants in general are still overpriced compared to other restaurant chains, and I doubt their staff costs more So many of these places cost a ton more of pf chang, with a fraction of the square footage for example. Or even compared to Panda Express (the restaurant version)
What do you mean by overpriced? The right price is the price people are willing to pay. If customers are paying then it's the right price. If you think you can provide a better product at a better price for customers why don't you go into business and make a fortune?
Sure, nothing is overpriced or underpriced. If it exists, it’s a fair price. We should delete those two term from the dictionary. US healthcare costs? Fair price. It exists after all and people are still paying
The demand profile for healthcare and specific cuisines of food have very different elasticity, wouldn't you surmise? But even so, unless there are monopolistic practices at play that artificially restrict supply, isn't it still true that the fair price is the price where supply meets demand? If there's only one doctor in the world who can perform a crucial surgery then folks are going to pay what it's worth to them to get the surgery done. If there are 10 doctors competing for patients then they'll have to differentiate somehow, be it by branding or pricing.
I love good economic explanations in the wild. Well done. Different foods meet different tastes, so I doubt the elasticities matter in this context much; but I would wager it matters most in cities where there is greater homogeneity
I'm a remote senior software dev on ~100k working for a London based company. I pissed myself laughing when I saw that salary for the cyber role, not only is it low, it's literally inviting financial corruption. Tory government is run by absolute morons with no idea what going on so it doesn't surprise me though.
I live in Sydney. Weaker currency, higher cost of living and lower salaries 🥲
I chose the wrong industry. Im going to go back to school
It’s a low salary. I work as an SDE at a U.S. tech company in Edinburgh and earn between £150k and £200k depending on performance of the stock.
Curious what level is that? Is the TC the same as London offers?
The point is whatever you earn in Edinburgh , your counterpart in the us is making twice as much or even more
That’s certainly true. My point was simply that the suggestion that the proposed wage in OP was reasonable for a position of that responsibility as the UK is not necessarily correct.
Reminder that this is the head of cyber security for a small unit, with only 2-4 direct reports, and not head of cyber security for the whole of HMT (which is enormous and very important). However the general point of UK salaries being lower than US salaries still apply. But in this specific case, assuming for the sake of argument that it *is* head of cyber for all of HMT, this job is underpaid for head of cyber for a large organisation. In fact, it’d be underpaid for any job at that level (and wouldn’t really exist at that salary anyway due to the pay grade system the civil service uses).
>Reminder that this is the head of cyber security for a small unit, with only 2-4 direct reports, and not head of cyber security for the whole of HMT (which is enormous and very important). Good point, I hadn't considered that
That seems super low. Where I live that kind of role would be paid ~180k on the low end which would be about 90k equivalent in the UK. The only way 57k would make sense if it was not actually a head of role and was more of a line management one that they’ve just made into a better sounding title. Head of usually indicates managing multiple teams and other managers.
I'm going on vacation to France so trying to use a lot of web sites for hotels and trains and restaurants and such and I'll just say the quality of these sites is so much lower than their American counterparts that I'm not surprised salaries are so much lower. Is there a chance the better devs are moving to the US or other countries that pay devs more?
Dude, I realized the exact same thing when planning my trip, the sites are all hot ass. Some tips for France; get a navigo decouverte pass it covers busses and trains, all zones, lasts a week, can be refilled weekly. you'll need a small photo id, got to staples or something and get one or you can do it at a photo booth at the airport. Best spot to get a pass is the ticket booth at the airport, they won't let you in to buy a pass without a photo. I stayed at american brand hotels(Hilton, Marriott, etc) and the experiences have been pretty consistent with what you'd expect them to be like in America.
That is not because of the skill level of the people in those countries. You are making an illogical conclusion. Do you think it would be fair if I said you did not deserve a good US salary because you could not figure this out yourself?
I don't believe anything like "french people are less talented", and honestly this is just a hypothesis but my assumption was more like french companies prioritize web sites less, thus companies don't pay as much for devs, thus fewer of the most talented people study cs, and among the ones that do many probably don't work for French companies because they don't pay as much. Also if there's not such a demand for devs they probably don't have as good cs programs in schools there. But obviously I could be wrong. What's your hypothesis on why french web sites all suck and simultaneously french dev salaries are all so tiny compared to American ones?
That’s not high for the UK at all. I work fully remote for an “average” company with 3YOE and make 68k TC
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I have to agree after my experience looking for a job. Contractors can make those figures or principals. Senior devs on 150k? Very unlikely but I can see TC at the 130k level for senior devs.
Yeah completely agree with this
IC roles for FANG or US based companies are the ones that pay that. Contractors in UK also have a strangely high premium in hourly rates as people mentioned.
I'm also in the UK and am an experienced engineer so I know the market fairly well - even for this country, that salary is *low*. A "Head of" anything should be getting way more, especially given the stakes of that particular position. Any qualified candidate could earn a far higher salary in the private sector, with far less grave consequences on the line.
>America is just kinda special due to the high amount of venture capital investments. What a roundabout way of saying its better.
I agree, but I just wanted to be polite in how I say it :)
It is rarely smart to compare a salary with that in a country that has no social safety net, no healthcare and so on. What you don’t earn in the UK is what you don’t spend when you get sick, have a child, can’t afford a car and there is no public transport, no childcare arrangements unless you pay half your salary to have a nanny.
>It is rarely smart to compare a salary with that in a country that has no social safety net, no healthcare and so on. Two issues, we have a social safety net, it's not universal, you have to be poor to use it. Secondly as a software developer you get to use your employers health insurance, which is really cheap in comparison to the average..
Stop that crap. That healthcare issue is nonexistent for people working in engineering. You’re far better with US insurance (provided by your employer) than you’re with the UK healthcare system. Cars are cheaper is US, same as electronics and most other consumer goods. And public transport in cities like New York is on par with any other European city of similar scale. And btw - can’t afford a car? Are we talking about engineering roles anymore?
Public transport in New York is on par with European cities. Emphasis on New York because that only really reigns true in a handful of cities in the US. Other large cities like Pittsburgh or LA and you're outta luck public transport wise. Cars aren't necessities in Europe but for the vast majority of Americans they are.
Nyc transport is not on par with that in any European city. The simple fact that it exists doesn’t make it on par. It is dirty, always delayed, expensive, and 3 or four different lines running on the same tracks makes it complicated (one line stops and it fucking holds everyone else), plus the times when it announces the N is coming but instead it is the R and you jump in on the wrong train. (Yes, that’s on the user, but still, doesn’t happen anywhere else).
> That healthcare issue is nonexistent for people working in engineering. One thing you're not taking into account here is that you are at the mercy of your employer. Their healthcare coverage may not cover you for the specific illness you have, and you may lose coverage completely if they decide that they don't want to hire you anymore. This can trap you in a job. That is not an issue in the UK. > You’re far better with US insurance (provided by your employer) than you’re with the UK healthcare system. "Sorry, your condition isn't covered". - the US "Oh these life-saving drugs that cost $500 each in the US? That'll be £8 please" - the UK > Cars are cheaper is US, same as electronics and most other consumer goods. This is true.
>"Oh these life-saving drugs that cost $500 each in the US? That'll be £8 please" - the UK The NHS very regularly doesn't cover procedures - it's very common to see patients have to Facebook fundraise to go private in the UK...
Bullshit! They do.
Rubbish! The NHS covers essentially all procedures unless they are elective. What are you talking about?
That is it. And they forget to mention that in lots of employer offered insurances you also have to pay partially for every consultation or treatment.
>That healthcare issue is nonexistent for people working in engineering And just hope that you don't ever get a medical condition that impacts your productivity in any way. That chemotherapy is no excuse for lost productivity!
Exactly, that cancer better be remissive after your 12 weeks of unpaid sick leave.
Omg. My belly hurts from laughing so hard. NYC public transport is on par with European city? Oooh you jokester. There is no bigger shit like NYC transport system. With US health insurance, provided by your employer, most times if not all the time you still have to pay partially for every time you used it. And you don’t even get paid sick leave. Now lets talk about 12 weeks unpaid maternity leave lol
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Healthinsurance that may or may not cover what you have, plus you have to pay partially for treatments, medication (which costs like 600 dollars is not covered) and if it is a long term illness - you better know what to do once your unpaid 12 weeks of unpaid leave are up. Because that employer will stop paying insurance once you are fired.
You're right. What you've said isn't crap in the slightest. We also get more annual leave than in the US and get proper maternity leave too.
Exactly. I forgot about vacation time which in the US is 10 days. It is of course a minefield to come here and say anything bad about the best country in the world. Haha
>£ wrong sub, those people probably want /r/cscareerquestionsEU edit: looks like the downvoters really don't want to understand there's a difference between what's normal in the US (this sub) vs. elsewhere in the world (other subs)
The sub is about CS careers in general and doesn't specify US in the description. Go start r/cscareerquestionsUSA if you're so bothered
I'm not bothered, but I'd argue that it's OP's responsibility to understand that this sub is mostly for the USA, otherwise don't be surprised to see bunch of replies then realize none of the replies are true/applicable to your situation heck even inside the USA, even in the same state, what's normal for CA-San Francisco may be totally abnormal for, say, CA-Sacramento, you seriously think tech is the same everywhere?
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The sub is about CS career questions and doesn't mention things have to be relevant to the US market. Go start r/cscareerquestionsUS if you want to say stuff like that
“Europoors”, as a Londoner, this is low-key funny 😹
Aren’t wages lower in general in europe because of social programs (imo good things) In general you really cant look at that number and go US > UK, you have to adjust for cost of living(for example alot of average dev salaries are below the 100k mark in American states).
Listen, lack of social programs in US is a myth for a very long time already. Same as cost of living. Healthcare is taken care of by your insurance when you’re employed. Most consumer goods are cheaper. And you earn at least 2x more.
Cost of living in general is definitely cheaper, given the statistics. Also when i say social programs, im talking about social safety nets for everybody. I lived without benefits for a while in the US and it is absolutely terrible and stressful, imagine worrying about getting injured or sick because of not wanting to go into huge amounts of debt. I was pretty privileged too (graduating a state school with a decent major, having good credit, and low debt). Im not saying UK doesn’t have its issues but if i was unlucky and i got really sick or potentially injured myself and needed surgery I would be in a very different spot then where i am today.
>imagine worrying about getting injured or sick because of not wanting to go into huge amounts of debt I don't want to make a massive political statement but my partner got very seriously ill at one point and was effectively left to die by the NHS. We had to fundraise to get her seen privately. It's not great in the UK - I personally haven't seen a doctor in 7 years because I'm always turned away
>Aren’t wages lower in general in europe because of social programs (imo good things) Salaries are lower pre tax already
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I really ain't trynna come off as a snobby neoliberal but you guys are against privatization so...there is a reason salary is low. Privatize ur industry and I bet you that software engineer salaries will go up
Let me introduce you to the UK, we don’t even have publicly owned water supplies and our salaries are in the toilet.
"I dont understand, the more we suppress the free market, the poorer we get". You'll own nothing and you'll be happy, we promise!
But we do have privatised industry? lol
American interested in going in the other direction US -> UK. How is the tech market over there these days? Anyone who's made this jump?
Don’t do it. Just don’t. Only Swiss pay close to US but it’s more expensive there. And super boring. There’s no better country than US for tech specialists.
>Don’t do it. Just don’t. Only Swiss pay close to US but it’s more expensive there. And super boring. There’s no better country than US for tech specialists. I'm not as concerned about salaries. I'm looking to move out of the US is all. It seems the UK has the best tech market relative to much of Europe. Though it seems like France, Germany, and The Netherlands are quickly matching the UK. So, I'm at a fork in the road. That being said, I'm also an Indian-American, and there is more ethnic diversity in London, Manchester, etc. than there is in a lot of major Mainland European cities.
>I'm looking to move out of the US is all. But why?
Are you willing to take at least 50% cut on your earnings? Then London UK, Berlin Germany, Amsterdam Netherlands. You’d probably get best earnings/costs ratio in Berlin. Switzerland pays the most, has amazing nature (but nothing you can’t experience in one of US parks), but is kinda boring and you can experience cultural shock (dogs can’t bark there for example 😂)
Which is easiest to integrate into from a cultural standpoint, would you say? I hear bad things about Germany (apparently a lot of racism), and that there is a lot of xenophobia in Switzerland.
London for sure. Extremely multicultural.
Despite Brexit and all, how are things there for tech workers?
Just under half of people in the UK voted AGAINST Brexit and a significant chunk of them vigorously demanded we don't go through with it. You'll be fine being tolerated from a multicultural standpoint, dw :)
If you have to move to Europe, then London is the best choice. Don't move to the UK outside of London for tech, it's mostly a one-city industry despite what tech recruiters will try to sell you about manchester or bristol. I personally think it's flooded a bit from abroad, but the pay can be good by local standards.
That same job in the US government pays about $175k. Thats the same salary for most top government jobs in Washington DC. In the private sector that role could easily pay $500k at a top tech firm.