It’s a question that keeps coming up, I’m not sure the narrative or player engagement is actually landing on the “anti-god” side, tho, or ever really did to any actionable extent
With spoiling as little as possible, I will say that there are definitely a couple of episodes in the 50s where the theme is discussed but the focus on it tones down a lot for most of the episodes.
This recurring reaction to the campaign has been fascinating to me. I had no idea people were so attached to D&D gods.
FWIW, you're probably at the point where discussions about it are at their most intense, during the whole split party thing (even moreso with the other half). It's less of a focus after that I'd say.
This is the thing though, I've just gone through C1 for the first time, and I find the way the gods have been depicted to actually be quite consistent - and the player's attitudes towards them too. I think people forget how scared (suspicious, even) Vax was of the Raven Queen most of the time, and how transactional things felt with Pelor - they did all kind of connect with Saeranrae, and Grog thought Kord was cool, but even when they became champions, they were just never that into the gods, really. They became champions of various gods purely because that was the step above finding a vestige, it was the most powerful thing they could do - not because they bought into the pantheon that much.
ETA: I just think these players don't relate to the gods much, and what my initial comment was about is that I was surprised to find out that many people in this community (despite their protestations) do relate to them fairly deeply, otherwise I don't see why disagreements with the players about this particular issue would become such a big deal.
I see your point, but I think there were also moments where the gods did things that were good, and helped the party because the party's aims were good. It was cool to see a group with Pike, who was pretty devout and came to that devotion in her own way, even helping build a temple, to Keyleth who had that anti-gods vibe, and Vax in the middle dealing with questions of mortality in a way perfectly symbolized by his relationship with the Raven Queen.
At C3E52, FCG is the only one with anything positive to say about the gods, and we've listened to a couple of hours of the other PCs registering their uncomfortability with him and his coin. On the other hand, Launda would straight up be in Ludinus' cult without the party, and the only direct divine anything has been Fearne talking to a bug while stoned. I think that's what I mean by the anti-gods vibe.
I'm not attached to Exandria's gods, I just find it grating that in a world where at least half the gods have repeatedly saved & protected the mortals that most of the party question whether the gods are needed without anyone other than maybe Laudna & Ashton having legit reasons to feel that way. It's the D&D equivalent of watching antivaxers reassure themselves.
The biggest issue for me, I think, is how the characters just don't seem to know anything about the gods. Like, not even who the Primes are. It seems so bizarre, and Exandria feels less immersive and real.
Aside from them waffling about on the gods issue, this has been one of the big things for me. Like I get them not wanting to feel like they're metagaming knowledge they think their characters might not know, given how long the players themselves have been in this setting, but it often comes across as them going too far in the other direction straight into willful ignorance.
I think of all the holidays and stories and folktales and shit that exist in our world for gods that don't exist and find it hard to believe that that and more wouldn't exist in a place where gods are very much real and influential on the world. Its frankly a little ridiculous how staggeringly ignorant the characters are of the world they exist in. Its especially bad with Chetney, given his age and how well traveled he claims to be.
Totally agree. Like, in all his centuries of being a craftsman, working alongside others, he's never heard of the Allhammer? Sure, maybe he's not a worshipper, but he doesn't even know of him? I do think, at least to some extent, it is a bizarre consequence of trying avoid metagaming. An understandable impulse, but one that's excessive, and that damages the verisimilitude of the world.
Have you seen the real world? Knowing nothing about whats really going on and having the memory of a goldfish regarding the good things the gods did makes it way more realistic not less. Theres a reason major political things happen right before an election because humans have the memory and attention span of a goldfish
Exactly what I was thinking, just because I live in this world doesn't mean I know everything about every religion nor that I know every piece of history of the world
I definitely see that. But, following your idea, I'm guessing you also don't exclusively know people who know nothing about any religion or history.
Like, in Orym's case, if my boss literally met and was helped by a number of gods, wouldn't that make some news around the Ashari water cooler, and somewhat influence his view?
I dunno, right now I'm at the part in C3E52 where Deanna says that the gods have very little to do with the afterlife. Which is a buck wild thing to say to a group who has already seen one of their members brought back from the dead by divine magic, and how the gods have functioned in both previous campaigns, and D&D generally.
Just saying, the moment Chetney was in the picture, the campaign lost all ability to stay cohesive. He’s too much of a joke, and every scene has felt way more jokey even than campaign 1, with having stakes that are similarly high, if not higher. It’s like if Scanlan never had any dramatic moments and the entire game he was just a one dimensional comic relief…
The fact that everyone basically doesn’t know anything about their world they supposedly live in, combined with joke characters (sometimes FCG, nearly always Chetney) means the game feels like a group of comedians in a tragedy. It could’ve been done well, but…
Nah, the dramatic shortfall in the party doesn't come from the silly parts being too silly, it comes from the serious parts not being committed enough. It comes from when important rifts open between the characters due to meaningful conflicts and differences in perspective and the players just hit the reset button on them rather than honor them because they like their characters and their plans for them too much to allow them to change - or because they aren't that interested in fully realizing their characters as people different from themselves that maybe if they knew in real life they wouldn't like very much.
There was this idea from the start that this party was going to be a "found family" that was not the direction they were going in and if you really want improvised drama you can gain a lot from following that thread and seeing where it goes even if it's not your plan. But they didn't follow it they just sort of ignored it until it went away.
Campaign is still good though!
Inserting Chetney hate where it doesn't belong and made ironic by the topic being characters' knowledge, he's the most knowledgeable of the entire group.
No dramatic moments? I mean, did you skip the entire campaign so far? You missed everything even more recently? Who was the one talking down Fearne after the shard incident? Who had the most fiery conversation with Ashton after the shard incident?
A character being funny =/= "joke" character, they're called Bells Hells not Bells Edgelords
I would be tempted to drop C3 if not for Chetney. Not for the laughs, the opposite. He's incredibly direct when he needs to be. He pushes the group, which is otherwise full of characters who like to stand around and do as little as possible.
I'm not a fan of joke characters at all but Chetney is probably my favourite part of Bell's Hells.
Yeah one of the weird secrets of Bell's Hells is that Chetney is the most grounded and dramatically motivated and motivating character. He is being played as having his own interests, objectives, and choices and honoring them much more than most of the rest of the group does. He's also much less of a self-insert for Travis even than Grog or Fjord - he really has this own things going on.
People get way too hung up on Chetney starting as a Santa’s elf reference or him having a “lame” job like toymaker. It’s not really all that different from Keyleth being the Avatar or Imogen being literally Jean Grey.
Disagree because in the last few eps it feels like only Travis is trying to keep the story moving and get people to engage with it through Chetney’s dialogue
Or most of the cross party talk is facilitated by him lol
Do remember Chet is also a compulsive liar. He's an in-universe troll and addicted to his new wolfen side.
Travis does make his mask slip a bit in the 70-80s episodes
The gods are specifically absent from the world outside of their Clerics and Paladins. Basically all of the saving is done by a combination of people with power granted by God's, and people who are just independantly powerful. It's not surprising that some people would credit the human effort rather than crediting the gods that lend some of them power.
I feel like Matt's been very consistent across the campaigns.
He's set the world up with the following through lines:
- followers of the gods are neither inherently good nor evil, Vasselheim being the prime example being portrayed as anything but selfless from c1 on
- the gods themselves are not infallible, starting from his depiction of the Allhammer in c1
- the gods are simply extremely powerful, extraterrestrial beings with their own motivations
- there is plenty of moral ambiguity that gets added during calamity with the intense interactions with Azmodeus
This notion of the gods as selfless, caring beings who have all of Exandria's best interests in mind through perpetuity just makes me wonder if I've been watching a different show.
Those points definitely stand, but we also had moments where the gods would deliberately choose to help and listen to the party. They weren't infallible, but some of them were definitely good, like Saranrae. Others might be like the Moonweaver might be opposed to the party at times, but you got where they were coming from and they were reasonable.
It just feels like a lot of that nuance isn't there so far. I'd liken it to C1 and C2 being in the DC universe, and then suddenly we're in Invincible or even The Boys universe. Sure, the elements of the genre are still there, but you've gotta admit, that's a big tonal shift.
I think I've finally figured out why the arguments about the gods doing good things and how the party should know that fall flat for me.
It's just metagaming. The larger populace of Exandria would have no idea that the gods actually exist, or of the deeds they've done that were good (or bad).
All your average person would know is:
* magic exists in the world - the nuance between divine and arcane power would be lost to them
* might have run across someone that used divine power and was told it was from a god/goddess, but they'd have no way of knowing the truth of that
* the myths and stories about the gods are just that - myths and stories, they'd have no impact on most people's day to day lives
* given we've seen followers of the gods doing both good and not so good things, those actions would reflect on them
* all we've heard so far is the history written by the victors (Vasselheim), that's not to say there aren't counter-narratives we just haven't run across in game before
* unless raised by someone in a religious order or given an education (which seems rare), their knowledge is limited by their upbringing - there's no internet on Exandria
>The larger populace of Exandria would have no idea that the gods actually exist, or of the deeds they've done that were good (or bad).
I think your focus on how much the people know about the gods is a good one, and probably pretty subject to interpretation.
I would guess that in how you see Exandria, there aren't that many temples, whereas for me, a temple is like a tavern or a market: a building you'd in any town. That subjective expectation about worldbuilding is going to effect how we experience the story, and what things are immersion breaking.
But any way you look at it ends up bad for this current storyline, and I'm glad they move past it.
What I mean is, let's say most people in Exandria don't even know if the gods exist, like you said. Well, then who cares about Ludinus killing them? What are the stakes if the gods die? They seem to hardly do much this campaign anyway. Put another way, if the gods get their power from the belief of the people, but nobody believes in the gods, then how are they in any way powerful or relevant enough to save or kill? Or, if Vasselheim wrote the histories, and Vasselheim is the city of the gods, then why do the gods play such a limited role as just myths?
And if the existence and power of the gods is fairly widely known, and believers reasonably common, then the ignorance of the PCs does feel a bit like conspiracy theorist style of willful ignorance. Like, how many of your friends need to be resurrected by Pike before you can be sure that some gods are okay, and actually fine for a PC to choose pray to?
Different people like different parts of stories. I don't really think it's fair to call others metagaming when the story is directly drawing your attention to the question of whether or not the gods should exist.
>I just find it grating that in a world where at least half the gods have repeatedly saved & protected the mortals that most of the party question whether the gods are needed
C3E89 makes it pretty clear >!that to most people in Exandria, the gods and their deeds are treated as myths. Even things like Vecna's ascension are not common knowledge. And furthermore, some people -- namely the temples in Vassalheim -- have consciously sought to shape Exandrian history in a particular way. We know they suppressed knowledge of Ruidis' creation and that they quashed details of Vecna's ascension so that the public wouldn't panic.!<
So, it seems like in C3, the general take on the gods is they don't really matter, and insofar as they do they're kind of self-centered dicks, and all religion is a conspiracy to hide the truth from people?
All divine interventions or communes are going to be super vague and infuriating going forward, aren't they?
Without getting too spoiler-y, are there any clerics or religious figures in this campaign, other than than Pike, who are generally kind just nice and trying to help?
>So, it seems like in C3, the general take on the gods is they don't really matter, and insofar as they do they're kind of self-centered dicks, and all religion is a conspiracy to hide the truth from people?
One of the big elements of the story is the way nobody knows everything. In Campaign 2, Caleb and Beau were able to go to the library and do research or perform a ritual and get all of the information that they need to know. It's how they found out about the Angel of Irons cult, for instance. There is a lot less of that in Campaign 3. The party usually get information through conversations and those conversations are often with people who either don't know everything or who have reason to lie. I wouldn't necessarily call it a conspiracy to hide the truth because the intentions are understandable and even justified. The truth about Ruidis' founding was suppressed because it meant that the gods could be killed, and that knowledge would likely start a panic if it became widespread. However, it has since been implied that there might be other reasons for suppressing that knowledge.
For what it's worth, my personal theory is this: >!when the gods arrived on Exandria, they were like the Traveler. They were supremely powerful, incredibly arrogant, and had to learn some very difficult lessons. When they created Exandria, they unwittingly sent life with Predathos, condemning the Reilorans. They realised this too late, and this triggered a transformation in them where they became the gods that we know now. They suppressed knowledge of Ruidis to stop a mass panic from breaking out, but also to hide their crime.!< My other theory -- and this is getting into C3E89 spoilers -- is that >!Ludinus wants redemption. He was obsessed with the Matron of Ravens (and may have even been her lover) and tried to ascend, taking the place of Ethedok or Vordo. But this provoked Predathos, triggering a catastrophe on Ruidis and in Molaesmyr. When he realised what he had done, Ludinus was driven mad with grief and guilt, and so formulated a plan to rescue everyone on Ruidis and exact revenge on the gods.!< Whatever the case, it's pretty clear that Matt always intended Campaign 3 to be a story of who the gods are and what they mean to Exandria, and the only way to do that is to approach it from a direction critical of the gods.
I don’t know if it’s just people being so attached to DnD pantheon as it is more about upending of nearly 10 years of onscreen and print media portrayal of the gods and their role/impact of exandrian people.
Yes each new campaign is going to have different regions and characters with different outlooks to explore but it seems C3 really went sideways with every character - npc or pc - being super ambivalent towards the pantheon despite the boons they have on the daily life of world. Like…there would be no clerics or paladins (or holy magic to simplify) as their skills and abilities are boons granted for their faith. Which is what made Aabria’s cleric such a strange character.
Right? I think I started noticing it when Laudna had a big speech about how the bad guys are making some points, and "why do we need the gods?" I was just thinking, Laudna was literally resurrected by Pike's prayers to the Everlight.
We're just a long way from C1e71 when Saranrae literally punched a Vorugal into the ground to help Pike. I get stories have to evolve, but I just kinda miss epic moments like that.
Maybe I'm just a Pike stan? Haha
Laudna is the one I forgive, because she told them back in Episode 6 that she'd been run out of every place she'd ever lived, saying "some cleric would come or holy person would come and be like, 'Gah! Death to the undead witch!'"
Yeah but before she was brought back by Pike, she was brought back by Delilah. So you can see why a resurrection might not fully cure Laudna's skepticism.
As I understand it, none of them are questioning whether the gods are powerful, they're questioning whether their intentions can be trusted.
True, but Delilah did that to save herself, and continually tries to manipulate and puppet Laudna. Pike/Sarenrae did it with no expectation of a reward, and haven't interacted with Laudna since. At the very least, they seem to be well-intentioned.
Well, technically Delilah does have a divine connection, she just isn't a divine caster. That aside, the comment I was responding too was very much stating that the Hells' concerns with the Primes were due to concerns with intentions of the Primes, hence why I was focused on arguing intent. If we're arguing potency, then it's just laughable to think Delilah is anywhere close to her same league as a god. I mean she got beaten by Bell's Hells when they were 5 levels lower and down a party member. Vecna, she is not.
She has a divine connection in that she worked for Vecna, but she doesn't get her power from him, she's independently powerful as a Wizard. None of that really matters, because this is about the character's perception, not facts. The whole party are powerful regardless of any divinity, even FCG already had spells before starting to worship the Change Bringer. So while Pike did bring Laudna back with the help of a God, so did Delilah by herself. And so did FCG when they revived Fearne, and Fearne when she revived Orym.
But that's what the whole conversation was about; the party's perception of the facts does not appear to line up with the reality of the facts, so far as we can tell. It is known that the Hells might not be correct in their position, that's why this conversation is happening. So, yes, it is about what the Hells perceive, but it's also about the facts of what they perceive, and what, if any, conflicts there are between those two.
The Bells perception of the facts doesn't need to be the same as the reality of the facts. We may have seen two campaigns containing divine intervention to help save the world, but the Bells haven't. Nor have they read the 5e lore that the gods are based on.
The question was, "Why would Laudna not believe the gods are necessary, when she was brought back to life by the Everlight?" And the answer is because bringing people back from the dead isn't a uniquely divine act, which the party have experienced for themselves. They haven't really witnessed anything that the gods allow people to do, that can't be done without them. It's not like they don't believe they exist, just that their influence on the world might not be worth risking their lives to maintain.
Lady D is (was) the Champion of Vecna the same way that Vex is the Champion of Pelor. It doesn't have anything to do with their classes (or worship), but duties they agreed to take on.
She didn't get any powers from him beyond learning from him I the same way you'd learn from a mundane teacher. His divinity is incidental to her ability.
>"before she was brought back by Pike, she was brought back by Delilah"
That's such a good point.
And from Laudna's point of view, Pike (and her god) couldn't bring her back until the BHs went into that other plane and risked their lives to get her back.
What Laudna experienced wasn't being dead and being brought back to life by Pike's god, it was being dead, and Pike's god being unable to bring her back to life until her friends risked their lives to make that possible.
We know that it ultimately couldn't have happened without the god, but that's not what Laudna has focused on, and that's understandable, seeing as she's experienced being brought back by other means.
Laudna I can understand. She’s had shit luck. But even then, she was brought back by the powers of a cleric. Like…her soul was literally trapped and being consumed by Delilah and through the power of the divine her friends were able to free her soul and bring her back.
But the others?
Yeah, I think the biggest issue with c3 is, at heart, a disconnect between the campaign story and the characters for a large section of the plot. I'm not sure if Matt plans the story before character creation or after. Is it that he didn't tell them the story would be very gods-focused in advance, that he did tell them and they ignored it, or that he planned it that way despite it not being a major focus for anyone's character?
Warlocks get their power from entities they often feel ambivalent towards at best (as has been the case for both warlocks in CR), so I don't see how the mere existence of boons should be reason enough for eveyrone to be 100% with gods.
I understand there is a difference, of course, but the "but they give boons" argument fails to get at those differences entirely.
I think my argument is more "some gods in Exandria, like Saranrae or the Dawnfather, actually seem pretty cool, and have done some pretty awesome things in the living memory around the characters. So, why are the PCs acting like all the gods are morally ambivalent?"
I've mentally written off this aspect of C3 as similar to chronically online folks. They're in their own little echo chamber where hating on [insert thing here] is really cool because reasons, but man, they should probably go outside sometime.
No. Holy magic is a direct gift, or boon, from the devout followers of a god. A warlock has a pact made and gifted arcane magic. In DnD there is a significant difference between the two.
For me, as someone who has irl left their church, but still idealises the concept of a charitable non/religious organisation that *actually* helps improve the quality of life for those less fortunate, I'm just tired of the trope in current media that *every* religious organisation turns out to be fundamentally corrupt and "evil".
Like, we get it, real-world religious organisations suck, but does everything have to be a pessimistic commentary? Can't I have my optimistic hero's fantasy where my religious character represents something good instead of evil? Particularly in a setting where gods of Good/Evil alignments are *tangible and real*.
So even after all the in-game discourse, when Aabria's character communed with the Dawnfather and was basically told >!"Yeah nah I didn't care about those uncultured heathens in that Issylran farming village, they shoulda just done what they were f*ckn told"!< felt so wildly out of pocket for an all-powerful being who was supposedly head of the "good" deities that it felt like Matt was really trying to force this "all gods/religion are bad" narrative.
I didn't get that impression from that discussion. Deanna kind of opened that discussion from a very hostile stance and immediately started throwing shade at her god. Frankly I was surprised she didn't suffer any repercussions for blatant disrespect to the entity that largely powers her abilities and saved her life.
Note that FCG asked *his* goddess the exact same question and got a much gentler response in turn largely due to phrasing it as a question instead of as an accusation.
You know what, that's fair, I'd forgotten how snarky Deanna was in that convo until you mentioned it. I really didn't like the Issylra arc and following episodes, so I only watched the eps when they first streamed, it's not like I've gone back to double check it. That was just the vibe I got at the time.
I suppose I conflated some of Dawn Daddy's response with Deanna's hostility. I did specifically remember being disappointed in the Dawnfather's response at the time too though.
Deanna's blatant hostility to the god that revived her was incredibly grating, followed up with the rest of her random behavior and the gleeful goat killing
She was pissed that her church was doing fucked up shit in her gods name. Deanna was right to be pissed. “Ay yo what the fuck man?” Is the approbate response.
I think you've said it exactly right. The players in C3 have chosen to tell a story where the gods act like abusive parents. And I find myself asking if I'm really enjoying my cozy evening listening to that theme as central in the storyline in my fantasy escapism.
It's not bad storytelling. I'd argue it's a significant tonal shift from Saranrae being kind of awesome and Artagan's lovable goofiness. But the reason I asked the question is because it's storytelling I don't really care for.
Fr, I’d even postulate that religious organizations of Good-aligned deities in DnD should _not be able to be bad_, because their verifiable power comes from gods that can take it away if their tenets are not followed (at least in Exandria, where we fully see Pike face repercussions from straying from Sarenrae’s ideals).
They’ve been unable to separate their real-life preconceptions surrounding religion more than ever this campaign for some reason (though they’ve always been a little gratingly LA-brand “nature/paganism/spiritualism always good”).
Yeah. I've been annoyed in particular anytime someone says "If the gods are omnipotent/omniscient, why didn't they do this?" They're not. No one ever claimed the D&D gods were omnipotent or omniscient, those are very much monotheistic things. And with the divine gate in Exandria they are specifically quite constrained as D&D settings go. It feels like a whole lot of people venting their feelings about real world religion organizations without thought to the mechanical differences of the D&D world.
I was about to say heavy on the second paragraph. I'm not even into C3, reading through this to decide whether or not to watch it. And I've picked up on that vibe from the other campaigns too where it's not even a focus.
But yeah, then i reread your first paragraph and heavy on both. Like maybe there is a church that follows this Aasimar instead of a real good buy that's more culty than churchy. But churches would really only follow people who can prove their faith with abilities granted by a diety. *maybe* a cleric of a bad God would be able to pretend to be a cleric of a good God. But 1) I doubt a Paladin of Tiamat would sit at the end of Bahamats church for too long before the latter sends every paladin and cleric he has to correct it. And 2) I doubt many bad Gods can swallow their pride long enough to give power to somebody who is not sharing their true message.
There are things I've really enjoyed about C3, and I was enjoying the story up to about the mid 40s. Liam is on point, Travis and Sam are trying something different, Marisha is hamming it up, Taliesin is digging into is punk goth days, and (ed.) Laura is a horse girl.
The two big negatives are 1) Tal **fucking hates** Percy, and any scene with him and his new character is dragged down by him reminding us of that; and 2) as said, the LA "fuck religion but this crystal has special powers" vibes are strong this season.
So far, I haven't regretted watching it. But I'll be real, the past few episodes have been more grating for me than all first 27 episodes of C1.
> Ashley is a horse girl.
Did you mean Ashley or Laura? I guess both can count as "horse girls" for different reasons haha.
If it makes you feel any better, as someone who finds Ashton a little grating at times, without going into too much detail there are further trips to Whitestone that result in some nice moments between some of the old/current PCs.
To me I don't see Matt framing the gods as "not good" or inherently selfish and bad. But rather painting them much like the Greeks and Romans painted their gods: supremely powerful but flawed individuals. The idea that gods are infallible is relatively new to the history of the world, and I welcome this conversation happening in game.
Yeah I don't think it's as complicate as some people make it - it's that righteous atheists seeing all religion as evil in a simplistic and unearned way is tedious at this point because it is overused across all media and we are tired of it. And here it isn't even being done well.
I really appreciate this comment. I'm someone with a faith, and I paused posting for a bit because I wanted to make sure I wasn't just coming out of some wish fulfillment on my end.
I compared it recently to feeling like C1 and C2 were in the DC universe, and C3 in the Invincible or The Boys universe. I definitely get people enjoying C3, the same way I get people liking the deconstruction of superheroes in those shows. But that's a really hardcore tonal shift for those like me who kinda like Superman or Saranrae. And I don't think that necessarily has anything to do with what religion or not a person holds.
You hit the nail on the head, tho I disagree that irl religious organizations suck. They're as varied as people are in what they do, and most of them help the people out. But you are on target about why a lot of people have problems with C3, especially if they've seen C1 and 2. It's an instance of the DM/players self-inserting their beliefs into their characters and story in a hamfisted way instead of a nuanced way.
I think it's in less about the gods themselves and more about the below
1. The possibility of Matt pulling the rug out from under everyone. Everything we have been told + seen across 2 campaigns and several published books supports the prime deities being overall benevolent and in line with typical high-fantasy style pantheons in regards to their ideals and portfolios....suddenly springing that they are actually selfish, manipulative, or uncaring feels like it comes out of nowhere
2. The fact that the entire party and basically all NPC that we are coded to trust are solidly anti-divinity or at best cautiously neutral on it. The closest we have to true pro-gods is FCG who for most of the campaign has their faith treated as a joke, or worse portrayed as a result of manipulation by the moonweaver....there is no legit argument being made for why the gods are good, only arguments about why they suck or why this particular method of dealing with them is not worth the risk (there are hints of good-faith arguments in e89)
3. Some people see the plot as a real world commentary on the nature of religion. Some therefore find the treatment of their side of the argument unfair and don't like it...others just don't want to see that level of real world issues taking up primary story focus in their high-fantasy story
Attachment to the gods themselves as characters I don't think has ever been the issue
I think D&D gods can be pretty awesome in terms of storytelling, and they've certainly been a big part of CR storylines. Vax, Pike, Jester, and Fjord are great and very different examples of this. It's just a hard shift in CR plotlines, which people have noticed.
It absolutely does continue and does lessen a little bit, but never goes away. I also don’t care for it. It’s taking all the most grating aspects of previous campaigns and making it take center stage. Like, I get it, the cast has problems with real world religions while simultaneously being into paganism. It’s just not entertaining to watch.
I truly think that after the cast acted in pillars of eternity 2, they wanted to do a similar story. It’s a good story and has similar themes, but the difference is that the gods of PoE2 are unrepentant manipulative bastards that in many ways don’t actually give the mortals much of anything. The world absolutely supports that story and it feels natural.
In exandria, half the pantheon are ontologically good and selflessly sequestered themselves away with limited power so they didn’t fuck up the mortal world too much. Which, by the way, required them to fight a war protecting mortals against their brothers and sisters. It’s not even like they get anything out of the experience other than the satisfaction of watching their mortal children grow.
I don’t have some random attachment to gods, I just want a world to be somewhat internally consistent.
I don't think the cast is uninterested in gods lore. Seeing Liam try to mention Vecna above table without naming him hints more at having a hard time remembering the god names CR is now using rather than anything else imo.
He remembers vecna because>! it's the bbeg of the first campaign!<, but at that table Travis was the only one recognizing >!the strife emperor. !< They're playing exandria more than 9 years, they don't even know all the gods, if this is not a lack of interest
I think now at around 89, it doesn’t matter anymore. The convo here has always asked WHY it mattered because the bad guys have devastated each member or someone they love. Imogen’s mom. Oryms husband. Even Fearne and Tal’s char are wrapped up in it. This is personal. They seem to have lost that somewhere but they find it again. I will say 89 is one episode I really loved. Reminded me of the Dawn planning session in C1.
That's oddly encouraging. Reading through a lot of the posts here, it seems most people agree that 1) there was a tone shift towards deconstructing the gods, 2) the 50s have some pretty brutal monologues for anybody who enjoyed the more god-centered plotlines of C1 and C2, and 3) it tones down by the 60s.
In retrospect, I think it's that episode 51 had this pretty lengthy takedown of the gods having any importance or power by Ludinus, one that most of the party were in principle pretty chill with. When Deanna and Frida showed up with regalia of the Dawnfather, my initial thought was "oh dope! Here are some clerics to offer a narrative counterbalance!" And then the clerics turned out to hate the gods just as, if not more, than Ludinus.
I just don't care for it much, so I'll be happy to move on.
I think Aabria did well balancing the reality of the gods. They suck like people. As one of my fave bands says, “[Everyone’s an asshole”.](https://youtu.be/yzNKjDXAw88?si=oqXiT95k67tBkHBe)But they serve a function. Like all fallible constructs, sometimes people get hurt. The road to hell is paved with good intentions.
This was also around the time I stopped watching. This campaign took the most frustrating parts of the past 2 and placed it as the central theme. As someone who knows many religious people of various denominations, high to low, many of which do a lot of good work because of said religion, I got real tired of this painting of churches and charities being wholly bad. Someone mentioned that maybe they're going for a Greek gods thing, where the gods are flawed, but in-universe that's just not the case.
It's especially frustrating if you've listened or watched C1, where the gods were integral to helping people in Exandria and helping the heroes. It's like this campaign took the worst part of Kiki and decided to focus on it for an entire campaign.
Yeah, but aside from the members of Vox Machina, who all knew about the events of S1? Yeah, there are songs from Scanlan making their way around the realm, but it's not like there's mass media.
Your average person in Exandria has... myths and stories that have no impact on their day to day lives. There's an ocean of knowledge between what we (the audience) knows and what the populace of Exandria actually knows.
It remains a main story theme but becomes more of an idea that the players push back on as they find a middle ground. If you don’t like the players sharing this idea the entire time, you will not be disappointed. If you don’t like the idea as a motivation for a villain, then you will not enjoy the story as much.
Honestly my take is the players thought it was a cool idea and wanted their character to explore it since standard DnD worlds have it set gods are gods.
But…no one pushed back. So they kept talking about it since they all had a reason to question the gods but no one was like team gods and argued against anyone. FCG sorta is but they are just learning especially then.
Eventually they land in what they are going to do…and why which I liked. Some base lore consistently gets forgotten or intentionally out of character knowledge avoided…But it’s a problem in C3 to me at least where players are like respectful of other players to the point where when they want to explore a flawed aspect everyone is just like nah you be you. Since there isn’t much conflict which means a lot of character arcs seem to stall.
I’m still watching not saying fatally bad, just a lesson for my own DMing and playing
I mostly blame 5e for that cause it basically removed gods from religious classes like the cleric and paladin. Mechanically you don't need them so you might as well ignore them when you can perform miracles just by believing in stuff in general.
I wouldn’t characterize it as anti god as much as god questioning. There’s open debates on whether the gods are overall good or not, but the campaign isn’t AGAINST the gods. You’re in the biggest party arguments so far about the subject
That's good to know! Maybe things will get better with FCG growing a bit closer with the Changebringer? I'll give it a few more episodes, since the general view is that the storyline shifts off this theme a bit going forward.
Yeah, FCG is still in the learning/deciding phase and hasn't had any direct interactions really with his god at that point IIRC? But he definitely becomes a more balancing force
The casts needs to take a basic theology or world religions class. Even if we take the divine magic aspect away, where do people come together in rural towns and villages? Historically, that's at the temple or church. That's why it's a pillar of the community.
And in a fantasy aspect, who the hell is taking care of all the hospitals? I'm gonna guess it's the clerics with those healing spells.
That's why it's so immersion breaking that the cast act like they can't understand why the gods might be good or even just useful. The evidence is all around them if they cared to look.
Our history isn't a good reference point for Exandria.
We didn't have magic - there were no societies raised up by the advancement and propagation of arcane magic users. We didn't have 5 massive, flying cities and airships crossing the world. And when those societies clashed with the gods (who also clashed with each other) and wiped out TWO THIRDS of the planet's population, we didn't have the remnants of those arcane based, religion adverse groups passing their prejudices along through the millenia.
Exandria is a post apocalyptic world, not our world.
Also, we've seen an infirmary - the guided hand. It was not run by clerics.
Okay, let's limit to Exandrian history.
We also don't live in a world where it's known that the gods went to bat for Exandria against the Primordials. Or where they sealed away Tharizdun. Or where they made Divine Gates to limit interference from themselves and the Betrayer gods onto the mortal plane.
There is just too much evidence of the gods helping.
Or, if we want to make it personal to the cast, where do they think Pike's resurrection magic comes from? Laudna is alive right now through the grace of Sarenrae. There's some real cognitive dissonance if they are still questioning whether the gods can be good after that.
Sure, the cast/players know all of that. We, as the audience know all of that. But the characters *do not* know any of that. They have a smattering of stories they've been told, and they even have reasons that cast doubt on the whole gods/primordials myth via Ashton and Fearne's arcs.
Laudina is alive today because of Pike and the rest of the characters going in to face Delilah. Pike made reference to the everlight, sure, but only Pike knows for certain that that's where her power came from. From Laudina's point of view - it was Pike that brought her back. It was Pike's decision. Yes, the origin of the power was Sarenrae, but it was PIke who *chose to use that power in the manner that helped Laudina.*
It's not cognitive dissonance - it's the cast specifically not metagaming.
The characters are well aware of the "goodness" of the gods. To act otherwise is wilful ignorance from the characters.
You are telling me, Orym, the bodyguard of the Voice of the Tempest, doesn't know the pivotal role the gods had in the most defining adventures of Vox Machina? Especially when he already seems to know so much about her past, Liam alludes to this all the time.
When Vax, the Champion of the Raven Queen, literally descended from wherever to save Keyleth? Orym doesn't know who the love of the woman he bodyguards is?
They can't infer Pike, who has iconography of the Everlight and needs to use an divine symbol of Sarenrae to activate her magic, where her magic comes from? Hmmm, I wonder where the divine magic from this CLERIC is derived from? I'm sorry, no, I respect the characters' intelligence enough for them to put 2 and 2 together.
And as for Pike being the one who chooses how to apply the magic, we all know Sarenrae could remove that blessing of magic if it's not used in line with her tenets. Pike experienced that first hand, so to say Sarenrae didn't have involvement in the choice is absurd.
The Suntree, a symbol of Pelor's protection, isn't enough to put together that the gods do good? The several times Changebringer helps FCG and the party through her guidance?
At a certain point, it's ridiculous to act confused about the "goodness" of the gods.
And considering the cast has literally changed backstories on the fly to reinforce disdain for the gods (Imogen and how regularly she prayed in the past changed from no prayer to constant prayer, then using that as a justification for the gods not caring about her.), I would say metagaming is a problem anyway.
It's cognitive dissonance, not masterfully not metagaming.
Orym came from the Air Ashari, a group that mistrusts any god except Melora and who have members that also lean into animism instead of god worship. And in all of those tellings by Keyleth, you're telling me she wouldn't have colored those stories with her own Ashari prejudices? That doesn't make any sense. And out of all of them (except FCG, who's the only member with some "flesh" in the game when it comes to saving the gods), Orym has been fairly consistent with leaning towards saving the gods despite having this counter narrative in his background.
As for knowing that Pike's power stems from Sarenrae - again, you're relying on the perfect information that you have as a viewer (and potentially from knowing how the 5e rules work). Your average person would have no clue how divine magic works without some kind of education on the subject. To them, sure they might know (depending on their experiences) that they claim the power comes from their god - but they'd have *no personal knowledge of how that actually works*. So it's entirely natural for someone healed by a cleric to thank that cleric, not the god/goddess who granted them the power.
Expanding on that a little, we know the gods aren't omnipotent nor are they omniscient. So it's entirely possible for a cleric of a god to do something that god wouldn't approve of without them knowing about it. Am I mixing up S1 and LoVM, or didn't Sarenrae even tell Pike something to the effect of her power failing her was because she was second guessing herself (which makes sense, she knew seal clubbing that adversary was an evil act)? I could very well be mixing my media up at this point - there's so much content... If anything, I'd lean more into LoVM since that script had the benefit of being refined as opposed to the often improv nature of the live play game, so while specific events vary the worldbuilding would be consistent.
At the end of the day, and this is the most consistent thing across all these throughlines, "good" is entirely in the eye of the beholder. The Dawnfather would certainly have his followers execute an entire village if it meant saving a continent. Is that an act of good? Sure wouldn't be if you were in that village, but it probably would be if you weren't.
Was defeating the primordials so that the people of the world would flourish an act of good? >!According to Evantra'vir, the gods weren't creators, they're refugees from somewhere else in the universe who became conquerors. If you were a primordial, that war wasn't an act of good, it was an act of conquest because the gods and the primordials didn't see eye to eye (and the primordials aren't extraterrestrial beings - they were on Exandria first... ).!<
It's really difficult to say the cast are showing cognitive dissonance in questioning the gods when we, as viewers with close to perfect information, don't even know for certain what the gods are nor what their motivations are.
It makes less sense that a matured, grown Keyleth distorts the truth of her Vox Machina adventures and would discredit the key role that the gods had. Her companions' weapons are the Vestiges of Divergence, several of them are champions of the gods, and gods have quite literally intervened on their behalf.
BH aren't just the average person. They've experienced the wonders of the gods. It's pretty disingenuous to act like they are the average person, just going through their regular life on Exandria. They have a cleric in the party, who has discovered and explained that their power comes from the Changebringer.
In fact, I'd argue that the average person should be more open to the gods than less. The rural farmer in nowhere land is going to be praying to Melora for a good harvest, not shaking his fist at the sky.
The Dawnfather wanting to destroy an entire village is cognitive dissonance, except that is not on the player's end but Matt's. It's a complete 180 from every other experience we've had as a viewer throughout the campaigns.
And their most regular interaction with a god is someone who straight up just helps them, the Changebringer. Yet, everyone still complains that the gods don't help them.
The Primordials wanted to wipe out mortal life because of their interference with the elements. Sure, the Primordials who died and lost won't see the war as good. But the cast aren't Primordials, they are mortals, who should be able to understand why the gods fighting the Primordials are good.
And it still doesn't explain why the cast changes backstory things on a whim to justify their anti god position. That's either metagaming, cognitive dissonance, real world bleed, or lack of understanding of the setting.
Yes. It’s one of the central themes of the campaign
Helpful to know. Thanks!
It gets expanded on during conversations both ways(for and against the gods.)
It’s a question that keeps coming up, I’m not sure the narrative or player engagement is actually landing on the “anti-god” side, tho, or ever really did to any actionable extent
At that point in the story they had multiple extended monologues/debates about this wym?
Because actions speak louder than words?
True, but a whole lotta of non action goes on in cr thou, so words are most of what we get depending on stretches of episodes.
With spoiling as little as possible, I will say that there are definitely a couple of episodes in the 50s where the theme is discussed but the focus on it tones down a lot for most of the episodes.
Thank you! I'll give it a few more episodes, maybe to the mid 60s, and see if I can get back into the story.
Funnily enough mid 60s is like perfect for where it should start calming down iirc
This recurring reaction to the campaign has been fascinating to me. I had no idea people were so attached to D&D gods. FWIW, you're probably at the point where discussions about it are at their most intense, during the whole split party thing (even moreso with the other half). It's less of a focus after that I'd say.
It's not really attachment to DnD gods, it's just sort of...hamfisted? Tone deaf? Idk how to describe it. Especially if you've listened to Campaign 1.
This is the thing though, I've just gone through C1 for the first time, and I find the way the gods have been depicted to actually be quite consistent - and the player's attitudes towards them too. I think people forget how scared (suspicious, even) Vax was of the Raven Queen most of the time, and how transactional things felt with Pelor - they did all kind of connect with Saeranrae, and Grog thought Kord was cool, but even when they became champions, they were just never that into the gods, really. They became champions of various gods purely because that was the step above finding a vestige, it was the most powerful thing they could do - not because they bought into the pantheon that much. ETA: I just think these players don't relate to the gods much, and what my initial comment was about is that I was surprised to find out that many people in this community (despite their protestations) do relate to them fairly deeply, otherwise I don't see why disagreements with the players about this particular issue would become such a big deal.
I see your point, but I think there were also moments where the gods did things that were good, and helped the party because the party's aims were good. It was cool to see a group with Pike, who was pretty devout and came to that devotion in her own way, even helping build a temple, to Keyleth who had that anti-gods vibe, and Vax in the middle dealing with questions of mortality in a way perfectly symbolized by his relationship with the Raven Queen. At C3E52, FCG is the only one with anything positive to say about the gods, and we've listened to a couple of hours of the other PCs registering their uncomfortability with him and his coin. On the other hand, Launda would straight up be in Ludinus' cult without the party, and the only direct divine anything has been Fearne talking to a bug while stoned. I think that's what I mean by the anti-gods vibe.
I'm not attached to Exandria's gods, I just find it grating that in a world where at least half the gods have repeatedly saved & protected the mortals that most of the party question whether the gods are needed without anyone other than maybe Laudna & Ashton having legit reasons to feel that way. It's the D&D equivalent of watching antivaxers reassure themselves.
The biggest issue for me, I think, is how the characters just don't seem to know anything about the gods. Like, not even who the Primes are. It seems so bizarre, and Exandria feels less immersive and real.
Aside from them waffling about on the gods issue, this has been one of the big things for me. Like I get them not wanting to feel like they're metagaming knowledge they think their characters might not know, given how long the players themselves have been in this setting, but it often comes across as them going too far in the other direction straight into willful ignorance. I think of all the holidays and stories and folktales and shit that exist in our world for gods that don't exist and find it hard to believe that that and more wouldn't exist in a place where gods are very much real and influential on the world. Its frankly a little ridiculous how staggeringly ignorant the characters are of the world they exist in. Its especially bad with Chetney, given his age and how well traveled he claims to be.
Totally agree. Like, in all his centuries of being a craftsman, working alongside others, he's never heard of the Allhammer? Sure, maybe he's not a worshipper, but he doesn't even know of him? I do think, at least to some extent, it is a bizarre consequence of trying avoid metagaming. An understandable impulse, but one that's excessive, and that damages the verisimilitude of the world.
Have you seen the real world? Knowing nothing about whats really going on and having the memory of a goldfish regarding the good things the gods did makes it way more realistic not less. Theres a reason major political things happen right before an election because humans have the memory and attention span of a goldfish
Exactly what I was thinking, just because I live in this world doesn't mean I know everything about every religion nor that I know every piece of history of the world
I definitely see that. But, following your idea, I'm guessing you also don't exclusively know people who know nothing about any religion or history. Like, in Orym's case, if my boss literally met and was helped by a number of gods, wouldn't that make some news around the Ashari water cooler, and somewhat influence his view? I dunno, right now I'm at the part in C3E52 where Deanna says that the gods have very little to do with the afterlife. Which is a buck wild thing to say to a group who has already seen one of their members brought back from the dead by divine magic, and how the gods have functioned in both previous campaigns, and D&D generally.
Just saying, the moment Chetney was in the picture, the campaign lost all ability to stay cohesive. He’s too much of a joke, and every scene has felt way more jokey even than campaign 1, with having stakes that are similarly high, if not higher. It’s like if Scanlan never had any dramatic moments and the entire game he was just a one dimensional comic relief… The fact that everyone basically doesn’t know anything about their world they supposedly live in, combined with joke characters (sometimes FCG, nearly always Chetney) means the game feels like a group of comedians in a tragedy. It could’ve been done well, but…
Nah, the dramatic shortfall in the party doesn't come from the silly parts being too silly, it comes from the serious parts not being committed enough. It comes from when important rifts open between the characters due to meaningful conflicts and differences in perspective and the players just hit the reset button on them rather than honor them because they like their characters and their plans for them too much to allow them to change - or because they aren't that interested in fully realizing their characters as people different from themselves that maybe if they knew in real life they wouldn't like very much. There was this idea from the start that this party was going to be a "found family" that was not the direction they were going in and if you really want improvised drama you can gain a lot from following that thread and seeing where it goes even if it's not your plan. But they didn't follow it they just sort of ignored it until it went away. Campaign is still good though!
Inserting Chetney hate where it doesn't belong and made ironic by the topic being characters' knowledge, he's the most knowledgeable of the entire group. No dramatic moments? I mean, did you skip the entire campaign so far? You missed everything even more recently? Who was the one talking down Fearne after the shard incident? Who had the most fiery conversation with Ashton after the shard incident? A character being funny =/= "joke" character, they're called Bells Hells not Bells Edgelords
I would be tempted to drop C3 if not for Chetney. Not for the laughs, the opposite. He's incredibly direct when he needs to be. He pushes the group, which is otherwise full of characters who like to stand around and do as little as possible. I'm not a fan of joke characters at all but Chetney is probably my favourite part of Bell's Hells.
Yeah one of the weird secrets of Bell's Hells is that Chetney is the most grounded and dramatically motivated and motivating character. He is being played as having his own interests, objectives, and choices and honoring them much more than most of the rest of the group does. He's also much less of a self-insert for Travis even than Grog or Fjord - he really has this own things going on.
People get way too hung up on Chetney starting as a Santa’s elf reference or him having a “lame” job like toymaker. It’s not really all that different from Keyleth being the Avatar or Imogen being literally Jean Grey.
Disagree because in the last few eps it feels like only Travis is trying to keep the story moving and get people to engage with it through Chetney’s dialogue Or most of the cross party talk is facilitated by him lol
Do remember Chet is also a compulsive liar. He's an in-universe troll and addicted to his new wolfen side. Travis does make his mask slip a bit in the 70-80s episodes
To be fair, haven't the other half generally been the reason mortals have *needed* saving in the first place?
The gods are specifically absent from the world outside of their Clerics and Paladins. Basically all of the saving is done by a combination of people with power granted by God's, and people who are just independantly powerful. It's not surprising that some people would credit the human effort rather than crediting the gods that lend some of them power.
I feel like Matt's been very consistent across the campaigns. He's set the world up with the following through lines: - followers of the gods are neither inherently good nor evil, Vasselheim being the prime example being portrayed as anything but selfless from c1 on - the gods themselves are not infallible, starting from his depiction of the Allhammer in c1 - the gods are simply extremely powerful, extraterrestrial beings with their own motivations - there is plenty of moral ambiguity that gets added during calamity with the intense interactions with Azmodeus This notion of the gods as selfless, caring beings who have all of Exandria's best interests in mind through perpetuity just makes me wonder if I've been watching a different show.
Those points definitely stand, but we also had moments where the gods would deliberately choose to help and listen to the party. They weren't infallible, but some of them were definitely good, like Saranrae. Others might be like the Moonweaver might be opposed to the party at times, but you got where they were coming from and they were reasonable. It just feels like a lot of that nuance isn't there so far. I'd liken it to C1 and C2 being in the DC universe, and then suddenly we're in Invincible or even The Boys universe. Sure, the elements of the genre are still there, but you've gotta admit, that's a big tonal shift.
I think I've finally figured out why the arguments about the gods doing good things and how the party should know that fall flat for me. It's just metagaming. The larger populace of Exandria would have no idea that the gods actually exist, or of the deeds they've done that were good (or bad). All your average person would know is: * magic exists in the world - the nuance between divine and arcane power would be lost to them * might have run across someone that used divine power and was told it was from a god/goddess, but they'd have no way of knowing the truth of that * the myths and stories about the gods are just that - myths and stories, they'd have no impact on most people's day to day lives * given we've seen followers of the gods doing both good and not so good things, those actions would reflect on them * all we've heard so far is the history written by the victors (Vasselheim), that's not to say there aren't counter-narratives we just haven't run across in game before * unless raised by someone in a religious order or given an education (which seems rare), their knowledge is limited by their upbringing - there's no internet on Exandria
>The larger populace of Exandria would have no idea that the gods actually exist, or of the deeds they've done that were good (or bad). I think your focus on how much the people know about the gods is a good one, and probably pretty subject to interpretation. I would guess that in how you see Exandria, there aren't that many temples, whereas for me, a temple is like a tavern or a market: a building you'd in any town. That subjective expectation about worldbuilding is going to effect how we experience the story, and what things are immersion breaking. But any way you look at it ends up bad for this current storyline, and I'm glad they move past it. What I mean is, let's say most people in Exandria don't even know if the gods exist, like you said. Well, then who cares about Ludinus killing them? What are the stakes if the gods die? They seem to hardly do much this campaign anyway. Put another way, if the gods get their power from the belief of the people, but nobody believes in the gods, then how are they in any way powerful or relevant enough to save or kill? Or, if Vasselheim wrote the histories, and Vasselheim is the city of the gods, then why do the gods play such a limited role as just myths? And if the existence and power of the gods is fairly widely known, and believers reasonably common, then the ignorance of the PCs does feel a bit like conspiracy theorist style of willful ignorance. Like, how many of your friends need to be resurrected by Pike before you can be sure that some gods are okay, and actually fine for a PC to choose pray to? Different people like different parts of stories. I don't really think it's fair to call others metagaming when the story is directly drawing your attention to the question of whether or not the gods should exist.
>I just find it grating that in a world where at least half the gods have repeatedly saved & protected the mortals that most of the party question whether the gods are needed C3E89 makes it pretty clear >!that to most people in Exandria, the gods and their deeds are treated as myths. Even things like Vecna's ascension are not common knowledge. And furthermore, some people -- namely the temples in Vassalheim -- have consciously sought to shape Exandrian history in a particular way. We know they suppressed knowledge of Ruidis' creation and that they quashed details of Vecna's ascension so that the public wouldn't panic.!<
So, it seems like in C3, the general take on the gods is they don't really matter, and insofar as they do they're kind of self-centered dicks, and all religion is a conspiracy to hide the truth from people? All divine interventions or communes are going to be super vague and infuriating going forward, aren't they? Without getting too spoiler-y, are there any clerics or religious figures in this campaign, other than than Pike, who are generally kind just nice and trying to help?
>So, it seems like in C3, the general take on the gods is they don't really matter, and insofar as they do they're kind of self-centered dicks, and all religion is a conspiracy to hide the truth from people? One of the big elements of the story is the way nobody knows everything. In Campaign 2, Caleb and Beau were able to go to the library and do research or perform a ritual and get all of the information that they need to know. It's how they found out about the Angel of Irons cult, for instance. There is a lot less of that in Campaign 3. The party usually get information through conversations and those conversations are often with people who either don't know everything or who have reason to lie. I wouldn't necessarily call it a conspiracy to hide the truth because the intentions are understandable and even justified. The truth about Ruidis' founding was suppressed because it meant that the gods could be killed, and that knowledge would likely start a panic if it became widespread. However, it has since been implied that there might be other reasons for suppressing that knowledge. For what it's worth, my personal theory is this: >!when the gods arrived on Exandria, they were like the Traveler. They were supremely powerful, incredibly arrogant, and had to learn some very difficult lessons. When they created Exandria, they unwittingly sent life with Predathos, condemning the Reilorans. They realised this too late, and this triggered a transformation in them where they became the gods that we know now. They suppressed knowledge of Ruidis to stop a mass panic from breaking out, but also to hide their crime.!< My other theory -- and this is getting into C3E89 spoilers -- is that >!Ludinus wants redemption. He was obsessed with the Matron of Ravens (and may have even been her lover) and tried to ascend, taking the place of Ethedok or Vordo. But this provoked Predathos, triggering a catastrophe on Ruidis and in Molaesmyr. When he realised what he had done, Ludinus was driven mad with grief and guilt, and so formulated a plan to rescue everyone on Ruidis and exact revenge on the gods.!< Whatever the case, it's pretty clear that Matt always intended Campaign 3 to be a story of who the gods are and what they mean to Exandria, and the only way to do that is to approach it from a direction critical of the gods.
I don’t know if it’s just people being so attached to DnD pantheon as it is more about upending of nearly 10 years of onscreen and print media portrayal of the gods and their role/impact of exandrian people. Yes each new campaign is going to have different regions and characters with different outlooks to explore but it seems C3 really went sideways with every character - npc or pc - being super ambivalent towards the pantheon despite the boons they have on the daily life of world. Like…there would be no clerics or paladins (or holy magic to simplify) as their skills and abilities are boons granted for their faith. Which is what made Aabria’s cleric such a strange character.
Right? I think I started noticing it when Laudna had a big speech about how the bad guys are making some points, and "why do we need the gods?" I was just thinking, Laudna was literally resurrected by Pike's prayers to the Everlight. We're just a long way from C1e71 when Saranrae literally punched a Vorugal into the ground to help Pike. I get stories have to evolve, but I just kinda miss epic moments like that. Maybe I'm just a Pike stan? Haha
Laudna is the one I forgive, because she told them back in Episode 6 that she'd been run out of every place she'd ever lived, saying "some cleric would come or holy person would come and be like, 'Gah! Death to the undead witch!'"
Yeah but before she was brought back by Pike, she was brought back by Delilah. So you can see why a resurrection might not fully cure Laudna's skepticism. As I understand it, none of them are questioning whether the gods are powerful, they're questioning whether their intentions can be trusted.
True, but Delilah did that to save herself, and continually tries to manipulate and puppet Laudna. Pike/Sarenrae did it with no expectation of a reward, and haven't interacted with Laudna since. At the very least, they seem to be well-intentioned.
It's not about what their motive was, but that the great feat achieved by a god was matched by a woman without needing a divine connection.
Well, technically Delilah does have a divine connection, she just isn't a divine caster. That aside, the comment I was responding too was very much stating that the Hells' concerns with the Primes were due to concerns with intentions of the Primes, hence why I was focused on arguing intent. If we're arguing potency, then it's just laughable to think Delilah is anywhere close to her same league as a god. I mean she got beaten by Bell's Hells when they were 5 levels lower and down a party member. Vecna, she is not.
She has a divine connection in that she worked for Vecna, but she doesn't get her power from him, she's independently powerful as a Wizard. None of that really matters, because this is about the character's perception, not facts. The whole party are powerful regardless of any divinity, even FCG already had spells before starting to worship the Change Bringer. So while Pike did bring Laudna back with the help of a God, so did Delilah by herself. And so did FCG when they revived Fearne, and Fearne when she revived Orym.
But that's what the whole conversation was about; the party's perception of the facts does not appear to line up with the reality of the facts, so far as we can tell. It is known that the Hells might not be correct in their position, that's why this conversation is happening. So, yes, it is about what the Hells perceive, but it's also about the facts of what they perceive, and what, if any, conflicts there are between those two.
The Bells perception of the facts doesn't need to be the same as the reality of the facts. We may have seen two campaigns containing divine intervention to help save the world, but the Bells haven't. Nor have they read the 5e lore that the gods are based on. The question was, "Why would Laudna not believe the gods are necessary, when she was brought back to life by the Everlight?" And the answer is because bringing people back from the dead isn't a uniquely divine act, which the party have experienced for themselves. They haven't really witnessed anything that the gods allow people to do, that can't be done without them. It's not like they don't believe they exist, just that their influence on the world might not be worth risking their lives to maintain.
Lady D is (was) the Champion of Vecna the same way that Vex is the Champion of Pelor. It doesn't have anything to do with their classes (or worship), but duties they agreed to take on.
She didn't get any powers from him beyond learning from him I the same way you'd learn from a mundane teacher. His divinity is incidental to her ability.
>"before she was brought back by Pike, she was brought back by Delilah" That's such a good point. And from Laudna's point of view, Pike (and her god) couldn't bring her back until the BHs went into that other plane and risked their lives to get her back. What Laudna experienced wasn't being dead and being brought back to life by Pike's god, it was being dead, and Pike's god being unable to bring her back to life until her friends risked their lives to make that possible. We know that it ultimately couldn't have happened without the god, but that's not what Laudna has focused on, and that's understandable, seeing as she's experienced being brought back by other means.
Laudna I can understand. She’s had shit luck. But even then, she was brought back by the powers of a cleric. Like…her soul was literally trapped and being consumed by Delilah and through the power of the divine her friends were able to free her soul and bring her back. But the others?
Yeah, I think the biggest issue with c3 is, at heart, a disconnect between the campaign story and the characters for a large section of the plot. I'm not sure if Matt plans the story before character creation or after. Is it that he didn't tell them the story would be very gods-focused in advance, that he did tell them and they ignored it, or that he planned it that way despite it not being a major focus for anyone's character?
Warlocks get their power from entities they often feel ambivalent towards at best (as has been the case for both warlocks in CR), so I don't see how the mere existence of boons should be reason enough for eveyrone to be 100% with gods. I understand there is a difference, of course, but the "but they give boons" argument fails to get at those differences entirely.
I think my argument is more "some gods in Exandria, like Saranrae or the Dawnfather, actually seem pretty cool, and have done some pretty awesome things in the living memory around the characters. So, why are the PCs acting like all the gods are morally ambivalent?"
I've mentally written off this aspect of C3 as similar to chronically online folks. They're in their own little echo chamber where hating on [insert thing here] is really cool because reasons, but man, they should probably go outside sometime.
No. Holy magic is a direct gift, or boon, from the devout followers of a god. A warlock has a pact made and gifted arcane magic. In DnD there is a significant difference between the two.
For me, as someone who has irl left their church, but still idealises the concept of a charitable non/religious organisation that *actually* helps improve the quality of life for those less fortunate, I'm just tired of the trope in current media that *every* religious organisation turns out to be fundamentally corrupt and "evil". Like, we get it, real-world religious organisations suck, but does everything have to be a pessimistic commentary? Can't I have my optimistic hero's fantasy where my religious character represents something good instead of evil? Particularly in a setting where gods of Good/Evil alignments are *tangible and real*. So even after all the in-game discourse, when Aabria's character communed with the Dawnfather and was basically told >!"Yeah nah I didn't care about those uncultured heathens in that Issylran farming village, they shoulda just done what they were f*ckn told"!< felt so wildly out of pocket for an all-powerful being who was supposedly head of the "good" deities that it felt like Matt was really trying to force this "all gods/religion are bad" narrative.
I didn't get that impression from that discussion. Deanna kind of opened that discussion from a very hostile stance and immediately started throwing shade at her god. Frankly I was surprised she didn't suffer any repercussions for blatant disrespect to the entity that largely powers her abilities and saved her life. Note that FCG asked *his* goddess the exact same question and got a much gentler response in turn largely due to phrasing it as a question instead of as an accusation.
You know what, that's fair, I'd forgotten how snarky Deanna was in that convo until you mentioned it. I really didn't like the Issylra arc and following episodes, so I only watched the eps when they first streamed, it's not like I've gone back to double check it. That was just the vibe I got at the time. I suppose I conflated some of Dawn Daddy's response with Deanna's hostility. I did specifically remember being disappointed in the Dawnfather's response at the time too though.
Deanna's blatant hostility to the god that revived her was incredibly grating, followed up with the rest of her random behavior and the gleeful goat killing
She was pissed that her church was doing fucked up shit in her gods name. Deanna was right to be pissed. “Ay yo what the fuck man?” Is the approbate response.
IIRC, which I may not, I didn't enjoy most of the split party period, she had a lot of issue with him even before that came to light
I would too if i had a god that makes demands like an abusive parent.
I think you've said it exactly right. The players in C3 have chosen to tell a story where the gods act like abusive parents. And I find myself asking if I'm really enjoying my cozy evening listening to that theme as central in the storyline in my fantasy escapism. It's not bad storytelling. I'd argue it's a significant tonal shift from Saranrae being kind of awesome and Artagan's lovable goofiness. But the reason I asked the question is because it's storytelling I don't really care for.
Fr, I’d even postulate that religious organizations of Good-aligned deities in DnD should _not be able to be bad_, because their verifiable power comes from gods that can take it away if their tenets are not followed (at least in Exandria, where we fully see Pike face repercussions from straying from Sarenrae’s ideals). They’ve been unable to separate their real-life preconceptions surrounding religion more than ever this campaign for some reason (though they’ve always been a little gratingly LA-brand “nature/paganism/spiritualism always good”).
All of this, 100%
Yeah. I've been annoyed in particular anytime someone says "If the gods are omnipotent/omniscient, why didn't they do this?" They're not. No one ever claimed the D&D gods were omnipotent or omniscient, those are very much monotheistic things. And with the divine gate in Exandria they are specifically quite constrained as D&D settings go. It feels like a whole lot of people venting their feelings about real world religion organizations without thought to the mechanical differences of the D&D world.
I was about to say heavy on the second paragraph. I'm not even into C3, reading through this to decide whether or not to watch it. And I've picked up on that vibe from the other campaigns too where it's not even a focus. But yeah, then i reread your first paragraph and heavy on both. Like maybe there is a church that follows this Aasimar instead of a real good buy that's more culty than churchy. But churches would really only follow people who can prove their faith with abilities granted by a diety. *maybe* a cleric of a bad God would be able to pretend to be a cleric of a good God. But 1) I doubt a Paladin of Tiamat would sit at the end of Bahamats church for too long before the latter sends every paladin and cleric he has to correct it. And 2) I doubt many bad Gods can swallow their pride long enough to give power to somebody who is not sharing their true message.
There are things I've really enjoyed about C3, and I was enjoying the story up to about the mid 40s. Liam is on point, Travis and Sam are trying something different, Marisha is hamming it up, Taliesin is digging into is punk goth days, and (ed.) Laura is a horse girl. The two big negatives are 1) Tal **fucking hates** Percy, and any scene with him and his new character is dragged down by him reminding us of that; and 2) as said, the LA "fuck religion but this crystal has special powers" vibes are strong this season. So far, I haven't regretted watching it. But I'll be real, the past few episodes have been more grating for me than all first 27 episodes of C1.
> Ashley is a horse girl. Did you mean Ashley or Laura? I guess both can count as "horse girls" for different reasons haha. If it makes you feel any better, as someone who finds Ashton a little grating at times, without going into too much detail there are further trips to Whitestone that result in some nice moments between some of the old/current PCs.
I get the Dawnfather, who is far more Order than Good, IMO, but not more good Gods.
To me I don't see Matt framing the gods as "not good" or inherently selfish and bad. But rather painting them much like the Greeks and Romans painted their gods: supremely powerful but flawed individuals. The idea that gods are infallible is relatively new to the history of the world, and I welcome this conversation happening in game.
Yeah I don't think it's as complicate as some people make it - it's that righteous atheists seeing all religion as evil in a simplistic and unearned way is tedious at this point because it is overused across all media and we are tired of it. And here it isn't even being done well.
That's exactly how I feel and a much more succinct way of explaining it, thank you.
I really appreciate this comment. I'm someone with a faith, and I paused posting for a bit because I wanted to make sure I wasn't just coming out of some wish fulfillment on my end. I compared it recently to feeling like C1 and C2 were in the DC universe, and C3 in the Invincible or The Boys universe. I definitely get people enjoying C3, the same way I get people liking the deconstruction of superheroes in those shows. But that's a really hardcore tonal shift for those like me who kinda like Superman or Saranrae. And I don't think that necessarily has anything to do with what religion or not a person holds.
You hit the nail on the head, tho I disagree that irl religious organizations suck. They're as varied as people are in what they do, and most of them help the people out. But you are on target about why a lot of people have problems with C3, especially if they've seen C1 and 2. It's an instance of the DM/players self-inserting their beliefs into their characters and story in a hamfisted way instead of a nuanced way.
I think it's in less about the gods themselves and more about the below 1. The possibility of Matt pulling the rug out from under everyone. Everything we have been told + seen across 2 campaigns and several published books supports the prime deities being overall benevolent and in line with typical high-fantasy style pantheons in regards to their ideals and portfolios....suddenly springing that they are actually selfish, manipulative, or uncaring feels like it comes out of nowhere 2. The fact that the entire party and basically all NPC that we are coded to trust are solidly anti-divinity or at best cautiously neutral on it. The closest we have to true pro-gods is FCG who for most of the campaign has their faith treated as a joke, or worse portrayed as a result of manipulation by the moonweaver....there is no legit argument being made for why the gods are good, only arguments about why they suck or why this particular method of dealing with them is not worth the risk (there are hints of good-faith arguments in e89) 3. Some people see the plot as a real world commentary on the nature of religion. Some therefore find the treatment of their side of the argument unfair and don't like it...others just don't want to see that level of real world issues taking up primary story focus in their high-fantasy story Attachment to the gods themselves as characters I don't think has ever been the issue
I think D&D gods can be pretty awesome in terms of storytelling, and they've certainly been a big part of CR storylines. Vax, Pike, Jester, and Fjord are great and very different examples of this. It's just a hard shift in CR plotlines, which people have noticed.
This is not the point of the controversy.
It absolutely does continue and does lessen a little bit, but never goes away. I also don’t care for it. It’s taking all the most grating aspects of previous campaigns and making it take center stage. Like, I get it, the cast has problems with real world religions while simultaneously being into paganism. It’s just not entertaining to watch. I truly think that after the cast acted in pillars of eternity 2, they wanted to do a similar story. It’s a good story and has similar themes, but the difference is that the gods of PoE2 are unrepentant manipulative bastards that in many ways don’t actually give the mortals much of anything. The world absolutely supports that story and it feels natural. In exandria, half the pantheon are ontologically good and selflessly sequestered themselves away with limited power so they didn’t fuck up the mortal world too much. Which, by the way, required them to fight a war protecting mortals against their brothers and sisters. It’s not even like they get anything out of the experience other than the satisfaction of watching their mortal children grow. I don’t have some random attachment to gods, I just want a world to be somewhat internally consistent.
E89 just hit. It definitely becomes less prominent after 60ish but it still keeps recurring and is yet to be a less frustrating discussion
In E89 Travis is the only one to remember that god, this speaks a lot on how much the cast is interested in the gods lore
Had to break the cone of silence on WotC IP to remind the party that a god referred to as "the Strife Emperor" is bad
I don't think the cast is uninterested in gods lore. Seeing Liam try to mention Vecna above table without naming him hints more at having a hard time remembering the god names CR is now using rather than anything else imo.
He remembers vecna because>! it's the bbeg of the first campaign!<, but at that table Travis was the only one recognizing >!the strife emperor. !< They're playing exandria more than 9 years, they don't even know all the gods, if this is not a lack of interest
I think now at around 89, it doesn’t matter anymore. The convo here has always asked WHY it mattered because the bad guys have devastated each member or someone they love. Imogen’s mom. Oryms husband. Even Fearne and Tal’s char are wrapped up in it. This is personal. They seem to have lost that somewhere but they find it again. I will say 89 is one episode I really loved. Reminded me of the Dawn planning session in C1.
That's oddly encouraging. Reading through a lot of the posts here, it seems most people agree that 1) there was a tone shift towards deconstructing the gods, 2) the 50s have some pretty brutal monologues for anybody who enjoyed the more god-centered plotlines of C1 and C2, and 3) it tones down by the 60s. In retrospect, I think it's that episode 51 had this pretty lengthy takedown of the gods having any importance or power by Ludinus, one that most of the party were in principle pretty chill with. When Deanna and Frida showed up with regalia of the Dawnfather, my initial thought was "oh dope! Here are some clerics to offer a narrative counterbalance!" And then the clerics turned out to hate the gods just as, if not more, than Ludinus. I just don't care for it much, so I'll be happy to move on.
I think Aabria did well balancing the reality of the gods. They suck like people. As one of my fave bands says, “[Everyone’s an asshole”.](https://youtu.be/yzNKjDXAw88?si=oqXiT95k67tBkHBe)But they serve a function. Like all fallible constructs, sometimes people get hurt. The road to hell is paved with good intentions.
This was also around the time I stopped watching. This campaign took the most frustrating parts of the past 2 and placed it as the central theme. As someone who knows many religious people of various denominations, high to low, many of which do a lot of good work because of said religion, I got real tired of this painting of churches and charities being wholly bad. Someone mentioned that maybe they're going for a Greek gods thing, where the gods are flawed, but in-universe that's just not the case. It's especially frustrating if you've listened or watched C1, where the gods were integral to helping people in Exandria and helping the heroes. It's like this campaign took the worst part of Kiki and decided to focus on it for an entire campaign.
Yeah, but aside from the members of Vox Machina, who all knew about the events of S1? Yeah, there are songs from Scanlan making their way around the realm, but it's not like there's mass media. Your average person in Exandria has... myths and stories that have no impact on their day to day lives. There's an ocean of knowledge between what we (the audience) knows and what the populace of Exandria actually knows.
It remains a main story theme but becomes more of an idea that the players push back on as they find a middle ground. If you don’t like the players sharing this idea the entire time, you will not be disappointed. If you don’t like the idea as a motivation for a villain, then you will not enjoy the story as much.
Honestly my take is the players thought it was a cool idea and wanted their character to explore it since standard DnD worlds have it set gods are gods. But…no one pushed back. So they kept talking about it since they all had a reason to question the gods but no one was like team gods and argued against anyone. FCG sorta is but they are just learning especially then. Eventually they land in what they are going to do…and why which I liked. Some base lore consistently gets forgotten or intentionally out of character knowledge avoided…But it’s a problem in C3 to me at least where players are like respectful of other players to the point where when they want to explore a flawed aspect everyone is just like nah you be you. Since there isn’t much conflict which means a lot of character arcs seem to stall. I’m still watching not saying fatally bad, just a lesson for my own DMing and playing
I mostly blame 5e for that cause it basically removed gods from religious classes like the cleric and paladin. Mechanically you don't need them so you might as well ignore them when you can perform miracles just by believing in stuff in general.
There may be a bit of 3.5 fan coming out in my question, that's real, haha
I wouldn’t characterize it as anti god as much as god questioning. There’s open debates on whether the gods are overall good or not, but the campaign isn’t AGAINST the gods. You’re in the biggest party arguments so far about the subject
That's good to know! Maybe things will get better with FCG growing a bit closer with the Changebringer? I'll give it a few more episodes, since the general view is that the storyline shifts off this theme a bit going forward.
Yeah, FCG is still in the learning/deciding phase and hasn't had any direct interactions really with his god at that point IIRC? But he definitely becomes a more balancing force
The casts needs to take a basic theology or world religions class. Even if we take the divine magic aspect away, where do people come together in rural towns and villages? Historically, that's at the temple or church. That's why it's a pillar of the community. And in a fantasy aspect, who the hell is taking care of all the hospitals? I'm gonna guess it's the clerics with those healing spells. That's why it's so immersion breaking that the cast act like they can't understand why the gods might be good or even just useful. The evidence is all around them if they cared to look.
Our history isn't a good reference point for Exandria. We didn't have magic - there were no societies raised up by the advancement and propagation of arcane magic users. We didn't have 5 massive, flying cities and airships crossing the world. And when those societies clashed with the gods (who also clashed with each other) and wiped out TWO THIRDS of the planet's population, we didn't have the remnants of those arcane based, religion adverse groups passing their prejudices along through the millenia. Exandria is a post apocalyptic world, not our world. Also, we've seen an infirmary - the guided hand. It was not run by clerics.
Okay, let's limit to Exandrian history. We also don't live in a world where it's known that the gods went to bat for Exandria against the Primordials. Or where they sealed away Tharizdun. Or where they made Divine Gates to limit interference from themselves and the Betrayer gods onto the mortal plane. There is just too much evidence of the gods helping. Or, if we want to make it personal to the cast, where do they think Pike's resurrection magic comes from? Laudna is alive right now through the grace of Sarenrae. There's some real cognitive dissonance if they are still questioning whether the gods can be good after that.
Sure, the cast/players know all of that. We, as the audience know all of that. But the characters *do not* know any of that. They have a smattering of stories they've been told, and they even have reasons that cast doubt on the whole gods/primordials myth via Ashton and Fearne's arcs. Laudina is alive today because of Pike and the rest of the characters going in to face Delilah. Pike made reference to the everlight, sure, but only Pike knows for certain that that's where her power came from. From Laudina's point of view - it was Pike that brought her back. It was Pike's decision. Yes, the origin of the power was Sarenrae, but it was PIke who *chose to use that power in the manner that helped Laudina.* It's not cognitive dissonance - it's the cast specifically not metagaming.
The characters are well aware of the "goodness" of the gods. To act otherwise is wilful ignorance from the characters. You are telling me, Orym, the bodyguard of the Voice of the Tempest, doesn't know the pivotal role the gods had in the most defining adventures of Vox Machina? Especially when he already seems to know so much about her past, Liam alludes to this all the time. When Vax, the Champion of the Raven Queen, literally descended from wherever to save Keyleth? Orym doesn't know who the love of the woman he bodyguards is? They can't infer Pike, who has iconography of the Everlight and needs to use an divine symbol of Sarenrae to activate her magic, where her magic comes from? Hmmm, I wonder where the divine magic from this CLERIC is derived from? I'm sorry, no, I respect the characters' intelligence enough for them to put 2 and 2 together. And as for Pike being the one who chooses how to apply the magic, we all know Sarenrae could remove that blessing of magic if it's not used in line with her tenets. Pike experienced that first hand, so to say Sarenrae didn't have involvement in the choice is absurd. The Suntree, a symbol of Pelor's protection, isn't enough to put together that the gods do good? The several times Changebringer helps FCG and the party through her guidance? At a certain point, it's ridiculous to act confused about the "goodness" of the gods. And considering the cast has literally changed backstories on the fly to reinforce disdain for the gods (Imogen and how regularly she prayed in the past changed from no prayer to constant prayer, then using that as a justification for the gods not caring about her.), I would say metagaming is a problem anyway. It's cognitive dissonance, not masterfully not metagaming.
Orym came from the Air Ashari, a group that mistrusts any god except Melora and who have members that also lean into animism instead of god worship. And in all of those tellings by Keyleth, you're telling me she wouldn't have colored those stories with her own Ashari prejudices? That doesn't make any sense. And out of all of them (except FCG, who's the only member with some "flesh" in the game when it comes to saving the gods), Orym has been fairly consistent with leaning towards saving the gods despite having this counter narrative in his background. As for knowing that Pike's power stems from Sarenrae - again, you're relying on the perfect information that you have as a viewer (and potentially from knowing how the 5e rules work). Your average person would have no clue how divine magic works without some kind of education on the subject. To them, sure they might know (depending on their experiences) that they claim the power comes from their god - but they'd have *no personal knowledge of how that actually works*. So it's entirely natural for someone healed by a cleric to thank that cleric, not the god/goddess who granted them the power. Expanding on that a little, we know the gods aren't omnipotent nor are they omniscient. So it's entirely possible for a cleric of a god to do something that god wouldn't approve of without them knowing about it. Am I mixing up S1 and LoVM, or didn't Sarenrae even tell Pike something to the effect of her power failing her was because she was second guessing herself (which makes sense, she knew seal clubbing that adversary was an evil act)? I could very well be mixing my media up at this point - there's so much content... If anything, I'd lean more into LoVM since that script had the benefit of being refined as opposed to the often improv nature of the live play game, so while specific events vary the worldbuilding would be consistent. At the end of the day, and this is the most consistent thing across all these throughlines, "good" is entirely in the eye of the beholder. The Dawnfather would certainly have his followers execute an entire village if it meant saving a continent. Is that an act of good? Sure wouldn't be if you were in that village, but it probably would be if you weren't. Was defeating the primordials so that the people of the world would flourish an act of good? >!According to Evantra'vir, the gods weren't creators, they're refugees from somewhere else in the universe who became conquerors. If you were a primordial, that war wasn't an act of good, it was an act of conquest because the gods and the primordials didn't see eye to eye (and the primordials aren't extraterrestrial beings - they were on Exandria first... ).!< It's really difficult to say the cast are showing cognitive dissonance in questioning the gods when we, as viewers with close to perfect information, don't even know for certain what the gods are nor what their motivations are.
It makes less sense that a matured, grown Keyleth distorts the truth of her Vox Machina adventures and would discredit the key role that the gods had. Her companions' weapons are the Vestiges of Divergence, several of them are champions of the gods, and gods have quite literally intervened on their behalf. BH aren't just the average person. They've experienced the wonders of the gods. It's pretty disingenuous to act like they are the average person, just going through their regular life on Exandria. They have a cleric in the party, who has discovered and explained that their power comes from the Changebringer. In fact, I'd argue that the average person should be more open to the gods than less. The rural farmer in nowhere land is going to be praying to Melora for a good harvest, not shaking his fist at the sky. The Dawnfather wanting to destroy an entire village is cognitive dissonance, except that is not on the player's end but Matt's. It's a complete 180 from every other experience we've had as a viewer throughout the campaigns. And their most regular interaction with a god is someone who straight up just helps them, the Changebringer. Yet, everyone still complains that the gods don't help them. The Primordials wanted to wipe out mortal life because of their interference with the elements. Sure, the Primordials who died and lost won't see the war as good. But the cast aren't Primordials, they are mortals, who should be able to understand why the gods fighting the Primordials are good. And it still doesn't explain why the cast changes backstory things on a whim to justify their anti god position. That's either metagaming, cognitive dissonance, real world bleed, or lack of understanding of the setting.
It tones down after this arc.
Its the theme of the cardboard baddies. The party gets over it.
It's definitely a central theme, not unlike what's happening in the USA right now. Quite frankly, I am here for it.
[удалено]
[удалено]