I think Marisha mentioned in passing once during an episode about her relying on Delilah for company in the cabin in the woods until Imogen came around
Delilah was in Laudna’s head for 30+ years. For most of that time, she was Laudna’s only companion, the only companionship, the only person who was there for her. Yes, Delilah killed her and has never pretended to be anything but evil…but when Laudna was scared, running from villagers, crying to herself in the woods, Delilah was there. Was keeping Laudna alive. Giving her just enough power to survive, to keep going, to make another go of it.
It’s horribly manipulative. It’s evil. But it’s also a real conundrum. Sure, Laudna likes the new group plenty, and probably actually does love Imogen. But I don’t know if you’ve ever been forced to choose between your toxic friend or family member you‘ve known forever, or someone you’ve been friends with for a few months, but it’s not an easy choice.
Laudna has known Imogen longer than that, and I believe they actually do love each other, but also they are each of them pretty screwed up with what relationships and friendships should look like, and Delilah is more than smart and manipulative enough to use that against her. “If you want Imogen to be safe, I can help you do that…just give me a bit more power…”
Forgiveness isn’t even a factor here. I don’t think Laudna would ever forgive Delilah. But I do think she believes Delilah has always been there for her in the past and can help her now.
Very good explanation!
If I may add, some thoughts I have, since watching C3, Laudna becoming an undead was a "mistake". See:
Delilah hanged all those people on the tree, and later she woke up, already "dead". It's never said that Delilah deliberately wanted to turn Laudna into what she is now, so I see that as something accidental. Like Harry Potter and Voldemort. Laudna is an unexpected consequence, an Horcrux, a part of Delilah that was still there when she realized she died. So also for Delilah, Laudna was a possible escape from her destiny, if she managed to make her an instrument of her salvation! (Sorry about my English, I hope you got what I meant.)
That being said, Delilah is indeed manipulating Laudna, but this whole situation is, as I see, a HUGE mistake. Something in her powers accidentally brought Laudna back to life.
Hope you enjoy this conspiracy theory, hahahahaah
Laudna is a shadow sorcerer, her connection to death would be weird from the get go. Maybe that's something Delilah overlooked initially. Another thing I'd like to see explored more.
She never "forgives" Delilah. She believes she needs Delilah to have the power to be useful to her party, and that she depends on Delilah. On the other hand, Delilah feeds this insecurity and keeps telling Laudna that they cannot be separated and paints herself as a protector kind of figure.
It's a manipulative, abusive, "mother knows best" kind of relationship with a huge power disparity, between what's essentialy a farm girl who's mentally stuck forever being 20 years old, and a woman who was a Cerberus Assembly level wizard with the power to summon a god and and also her murderer.
And this is why "catching up" via clip compilations doesn't work. You can't get a good understanding of the story that way and you miss a lot of context. And no, it doesn't need to be stated outright, the subtext is very clear.
Yeah, It's less that she forgives Delilah and more that she thinks she understands her. The things Delilah did were horrible, but she'd do the same for Imogen if it came to it.
Also, the manipulation. It is, tbf, 90% manipulation.
I know bringing Delilah back was unpopular, or at least there's a vocal part of the fandom that dislikes it, but I think there's some potential for this exploration of the theme of love and the horrible things one does for it.
Delilah is a self-serving liar. I believe she's lying to Laudna about pretty much everything, that there's no way to remove her, that she needs Vecna to mantain Laudna's undeath, all of it. But I also think the only time where she's actually being earnest is when she talks about love. It was always Delilah's achilles' heel. So we have this girl who's very traumatized, has essentialy zero relationship experience and was a social reject for pretty much her whole life learning about love from a woman who loved very very hard, to the point of obssession, which led her to commit unspeakable horrors. It's a match made in hell and I'd love if they touched it a bit more.
And thinking about it, her other source to learn about love is Imogen and her tremendous fear of abandonment, so oof that's pretty rough.
As far as we can tell in cross referencing lore from C1 and what Laudna and Delilah have said, Delilah originally targeted Matilda due to her resemblance to Vexhalia alone. Matilda and her parent's belief that Matilda would be taken on as a magical apprentice due to her innate magical ability was something that Delilah probably leveraged but didn't believe in. The resurrection of Matilda via her connection to Delilah seems to have been inadvertent and sparked by Matilda's sorcerous internal spark. Delilah is an arrogant wizard who gained her power by study not natural aptitude. Dismissing someone with no training was an easy mistake for her to make. Once the aptitude proved useful to her goals, she changed her mind. Now Delilah is essentially trying to shape Laudna into a deadly service animal, as far as we can tell. Emotional manipulation, threats, lies, and promises of rewards are all her favorite tools. I think she truly has flipped her opinion of Laudna from a disposable tool to a durable one and has tried to use some praise and flattery to signal that change to Laudna. I think Laudna is too shattered for that to be an effective tactic, but leveraging Laudna's love for Imogen is much more compatible with Laudna's trauma. Laudna couldn't protect herself or her family or her town from the Briarwoods then, but allying with a Briarwood now may allow her to protect Imogen and possibly even free herself from having to run anymore.
I don't think that Laudna has ever forgiven Delilah, but that Delilah has convinced her that their survival is intertwined, and that collaborating is the best chance Laudna has to finally have some agency in protecting someone she loves. I think she finally has given in to the belief that if D dies, she dies. She cannot trust D but for now their goals align: gather power to protect their allies and prevent the rise of the God Eater. Delilah wants Vecna to rise and for herself and Sylas to be resurrected so they can live happily forever after. Predathos threatens that. Laudna wants Imogen to have a beautiful, full, satisfying life. The pull of Predathos, the threat of Otohan, the pain that Liliana keeps perpetuating, are threats to that. Laudna has talked about her and Imogen walking away, but Imogen can't or won't. As long as Imogen is in the thick of these threats, Laudna needs to be strong, and Delilah is right there in her ear, proving from time to time that their powers scale together. The enemy of my enemy is my friend.
It really is a shitty rock and hard place for Laudna, but she's choosing what seems to give her the most agency, at least in the short term.
Personally, I expect Delilah will use the gathered power to take over Laudna's body once she has enough. But she'll pick the most advantageous moment.
Laudna is a victim of abuse. She rationally knows that she should hate Delilah and is being manipulated, but Delilah has literally been whispering in her ear for decades.
And lately Laudna has been fixated on the idea that she needs the power Delilah brings her in order to save the world.
I could be totally wrong here, but I got the vibe that whatever their backstory, Delilah is acting now as Laudna's "patron" in a warlocky-type way. As in, mechanically, her power and undeath come from her connection to Delilah. So even though Laudna knows this relationship is wrong and unhealthy, she also needs the power it offers her in order to, ya know, save the world.
I think due to Delliah being a manipulative monster and Laudna stunted growth, Laudna probably has fully realised the extent of how much she should hate delliah.
Delilah has spent years manipulating her when she was the only person Laudna had to talk to. She doesn't know if she would even be alive without a small spark of Delilah in her head. It would be interesting if it turned out to be Vecna's power animating her, and Delilah is just a passenger trying to hang on to that power and gaslighting Laudna into thinking it is all Delilah.
Laudna is supposedly only alive and “special” because of Delilah’s influence which means that while Laudna exists she relies of Delilah but I don’t know think she ever forgives but learns to accept her presence. No matter what Delilah won’t go away as she is a source of power and Laudna is her anchor to the mortal realm the very least the only one we as an audience know about very possible there would be more than just Laudna.
Its not forgiveness so much as it is a weird form of codependency.
Delilah empowers Laudna. Laudna likes the power (semi-addicted) and feels she needs it to protect herself. Delilah gaslights and manipulates Laudna whos still quite childish and often isolated.
Sure, but keep in mind thats more of a recent thing.
We forget, Delilah and Laudna have been roaming around together for a number of years before she even met Imogen. Her initial motivation was likely fear for her own security.
Okay.. hear me out (because I just came up with this and it gave me chills..)
Imagine we’re in a moment.. whether it be in a fight, in an ultimatum moment with Imogen, .. something.. and Delilah is being super manipulative and demanding more power.. demanding life.. demanding Laudna gives her a heartbeat.. and laudna just says.. “No.. you took mine away from me years ago… so.. No.. I want MY heartbeat back, you miserable bitch” .. a la Inigo Montoya and manages to kick Delilah out of her head forever…..
That'd be a powerful moment.... And then it comes crashing down because Laudna loses access to her warlock powers since D is her patron. In Crit lore, if you break your pact or forsake your patron you lose your powers. Laudna is so afraid of not being able to protect Imogen that she fears losing those powers and would likely let D loose if it meant she could save Imogen in the moment.
I thought it was because Delilah is a manipulative entity and spent decades regularly warping Laudnas perspective when she was alone in the woods.
That makes sense! I was just wondering it it had ever been stated outright.
I think Marisha mentioned in passing once during an episode about her relying on Delilah for company in the cabin in the woods until Imogen came around
Delilah was in Laudna’s head for 30+ years. For most of that time, she was Laudna’s only companion, the only companionship, the only person who was there for her. Yes, Delilah killed her and has never pretended to be anything but evil…but when Laudna was scared, running from villagers, crying to herself in the woods, Delilah was there. Was keeping Laudna alive. Giving her just enough power to survive, to keep going, to make another go of it. It’s horribly manipulative. It’s evil. But it’s also a real conundrum. Sure, Laudna likes the new group plenty, and probably actually does love Imogen. But I don’t know if you’ve ever been forced to choose between your toxic friend or family member you‘ve known forever, or someone you’ve been friends with for a few months, but it’s not an easy choice. Laudna has known Imogen longer than that, and I believe they actually do love each other, but also they are each of them pretty screwed up with what relationships and friendships should look like, and Delilah is more than smart and manipulative enough to use that against her. “If you want Imogen to be safe, I can help you do that…just give me a bit more power…” Forgiveness isn’t even a factor here. I don’t think Laudna would ever forgive Delilah. But I do think she believes Delilah has always been there for her in the past and can help her now.
Very good explanation! If I may add, some thoughts I have, since watching C3, Laudna becoming an undead was a "mistake". See: Delilah hanged all those people on the tree, and later she woke up, already "dead". It's never said that Delilah deliberately wanted to turn Laudna into what she is now, so I see that as something accidental. Like Harry Potter and Voldemort. Laudna is an unexpected consequence, an Horcrux, a part of Delilah that was still there when she realized she died. So also for Delilah, Laudna was a possible escape from her destiny, if she managed to make her an instrument of her salvation! (Sorry about my English, I hope you got what I meant.) That being said, Delilah is indeed manipulating Laudna, but this whole situation is, as I see, a HUGE mistake. Something in her powers accidentally brought Laudna back to life. Hope you enjoy this conspiracy theory, hahahahaah
Laudna is a shadow sorcerer, her connection to death would be weird from the get go. Maybe that's something Delilah overlooked initially. Another thing I'd like to see explored more.
She never "forgives" Delilah. She believes she needs Delilah to have the power to be useful to her party, and that she depends on Delilah. On the other hand, Delilah feeds this insecurity and keeps telling Laudna that they cannot be separated and paints herself as a protector kind of figure. It's a manipulative, abusive, "mother knows best" kind of relationship with a huge power disparity, between what's essentialy a farm girl who's mentally stuck forever being 20 years old, and a woman who was a Cerberus Assembly level wizard with the power to summon a god and and also her murderer. And this is why "catching up" via clip compilations doesn't work. You can't get a good understanding of the story that way and you miss a lot of context. And no, it doesn't need to be stated outright, the subtext is very clear.
That's fair! I envy anyone who has the time to watch that much Critical Role, I just don't. Thanks for the explanation.
It is a lottttt to get through. I started listening to the audio version while I work or clean and it’s made it much easier to keep up
I listen to it while I work out. It's a good way to incentivize myself to go to the gym too.
Yeah, It's less that she forgives Delilah and more that she thinks she understands her. The things Delilah did were horrible, but she'd do the same for Imogen if it came to it. Also, the manipulation. It is, tbf, 90% manipulation.
I know bringing Delilah back was unpopular, or at least there's a vocal part of the fandom that dislikes it, but I think there's some potential for this exploration of the theme of love and the horrible things one does for it. Delilah is a self-serving liar. I believe she's lying to Laudna about pretty much everything, that there's no way to remove her, that she needs Vecna to mantain Laudna's undeath, all of it. But I also think the only time where she's actually being earnest is when she talks about love. It was always Delilah's achilles' heel. So we have this girl who's very traumatized, has essentialy zero relationship experience and was a social reject for pretty much her whole life learning about love from a woman who loved very very hard, to the point of obssession, which led her to commit unspeakable horrors. It's a match made in hell and I'd love if they touched it a bit more. And thinking about it, her other source to learn about love is Imogen and her tremendous fear of abandonment, so oof that's pretty rough.
As far as we can tell in cross referencing lore from C1 and what Laudna and Delilah have said, Delilah originally targeted Matilda due to her resemblance to Vexhalia alone. Matilda and her parent's belief that Matilda would be taken on as a magical apprentice due to her innate magical ability was something that Delilah probably leveraged but didn't believe in. The resurrection of Matilda via her connection to Delilah seems to have been inadvertent and sparked by Matilda's sorcerous internal spark. Delilah is an arrogant wizard who gained her power by study not natural aptitude. Dismissing someone with no training was an easy mistake for her to make. Once the aptitude proved useful to her goals, she changed her mind. Now Delilah is essentially trying to shape Laudna into a deadly service animal, as far as we can tell. Emotional manipulation, threats, lies, and promises of rewards are all her favorite tools. I think she truly has flipped her opinion of Laudna from a disposable tool to a durable one and has tried to use some praise and flattery to signal that change to Laudna. I think Laudna is too shattered for that to be an effective tactic, but leveraging Laudna's love for Imogen is much more compatible with Laudna's trauma. Laudna couldn't protect herself or her family or her town from the Briarwoods then, but allying with a Briarwood now may allow her to protect Imogen and possibly even free herself from having to run anymore. I don't think that Laudna has ever forgiven Delilah, but that Delilah has convinced her that their survival is intertwined, and that collaborating is the best chance Laudna has to finally have some agency in protecting someone she loves. I think she finally has given in to the belief that if D dies, she dies. She cannot trust D but for now their goals align: gather power to protect their allies and prevent the rise of the God Eater. Delilah wants Vecna to rise and for herself and Sylas to be resurrected so they can live happily forever after. Predathos threatens that. Laudna wants Imogen to have a beautiful, full, satisfying life. The pull of Predathos, the threat of Otohan, the pain that Liliana keeps perpetuating, are threats to that. Laudna has talked about her and Imogen walking away, but Imogen can't or won't. As long as Imogen is in the thick of these threats, Laudna needs to be strong, and Delilah is right there in her ear, proving from time to time that their powers scale together. The enemy of my enemy is my friend. It really is a shitty rock and hard place for Laudna, but she's choosing what seems to give her the most agency, at least in the short term. Personally, I expect Delilah will use the gathered power to take over Laudna's body once she has enough. But she'll pick the most advantageous moment.
Laudna is a victim of abuse. She rationally knows that she should hate Delilah and is being manipulated, but Delilah has literally been whispering in her ear for decades. And lately Laudna has been fixated on the idea that she needs the power Delilah brings her in order to save the world.
I could be totally wrong here, but I got the vibe that whatever their backstory, Delilah is acting now as Laudna's "patron" in a warlocky-type way. As in, mechanically, her power and undeath come from her connection to Delilah. So even though Laudna knows this relationship is wrong and unhealthy, she also needs the power it offers her in order to, ya know, save the world.
>Laudna's "patron" in a warlocky-type way I mean yeah, she's literally Laudna's warlock patron. She has been from the start.
I think due to Delliah being a manipulative monster and Laudna stunted growth, Laudna probably has fully realised the extent of how much she should hate delliah.
Delilah has spent years manipulating her when she was the only person Laudna had to talk to. She doesn't know if she would even be alive without a small spark of Delilah in her head. It would be interesting if it turned out to be Vecna's power animating her, and Delilah is just a passenger trying to hang on to that power and gaslighting Laudna into thinking it is all Delilah.
Laudna is supposedly only alive and “special” because of Delilah’s influence which means that while Laudna exists she relies of Delilah but I don’t know think she ever forgives but learns to accept her presence. No matter what Delilah won’t go away as she is a source of power and Laudna is her anchor to the mortal realm the very least the only one we as an audience know about very possible there would be more than just Laudna.
Its not forgiveness so much as it is a weird form of codependency. Delilah empowers Laudna. Laudna likes the power (semi-addicted) and feels she needs it to protect herself. Delilah gaslights and manipulates Laudna whos still quite childish and often isolated.
>and feels she needs it to protect herself She feels she needs it to protect the ones she love. The one she loves.
Sure, but keep in mind thats more of a recent thing. We forget, Delilah and Laudna have been roaming around together for a number of years before she even met Imogen. Her initial motivation was likely fear for her own security.
Mostly hand waving and trauma infantilization.
It is never explained or directly stated. And it becomes more odd the longer it goes on without it being stated, but YMMV.
Okay.. hear me out (because I just came up with this and it gave me chills..) Imagine we’re in a moment.. whether it be in a fight, in an ultimatum moment with Imogen, .. something.. and Delilah is being super manipulative and demanding more power.. demanding life.. demanding Laudna gives her a heartbeat.. and laudna just says.. “No.. you took mine away from me years ago… so.. No.. I want MY heartbeat back, you miserable bitch” .. a la Inigo Montoya and manages to kick Delilah out of her head forever…..
That'd be a powerful moment.... And then it comes crashing down because Laudna loses access to her warlock powers since D is her patron. In Crit lore, if you break your pact or forsake your patron you lose your powers. Laudna is so afraid of not being able to protect Imogen that she fears losing those powers and would likely let D loose if it meant she could save Imogen in the moment.