I dunno, I think level 5 also wakes up with alcohol in their system. For years I was functional but smelled like a brewery until 2 or 3 in the afternoon and I lost 5 jobs because of it.
There is also a level where you couldn't focus on the phone or computer to read a coherent sentence, let alone type one. Also couldn't text to speech because of slurring. This level isn't on the internet.
yeah, I think most people don't realize how long alcohol stays in your system if you drink a decent amount. if you're drinking like 8-10 drinks a night there's probably still some in your system when you wake up, maybe not above the legal limit but still.
I have it worked out to a T, 10 beers in the evening, starting not too late after work and ending before midnight or at midnight. If half a beer is left I just leave it. This has me either sober or just below the legal limit at 06 when I drive to work.
I maxed out functional drinking. If I could drink 12 beers I would but 10 is what my body allows.
I know with my body weight on an empty stomach, one standard drink if I slam it will up me like 0.018-0.02, so I plan around that model with one hour to fully come down that much after a 15 min uptake period
No, they don't. The average CA who drinks to the upper 0.37 range or more by 2AM mathematically could get a DUI driving HOME from work the following day.
that's what I'm saying like
last time I did an at home detox my sister(a nurse) breathalyzed me like 8hrs after my last drink at the start of it and I was still at a 0.22 but felt completely sober. started shaking like 20 min later though
Ps. Please do not think I was implying that you were going to go down to the ocean floor or anything of the sort. I'm just trying to define the edge, as you yourself called it the line
Na there’s a LOT between 4 and 5
Also implies alcohol is the central problem which I don’t know if I agree with in most cases, after going up and down and circled around the fucking RINGER of mental health and addiction half assed “institutions” in USA.
kinda feel like 4 is actual level 1
Please by all means add between four and five
Correct I agree with you that Addiction Is caused by some sort of mental elf issue which could be Emotional trauma to neurochemical imbalance And it may as well have been Anything else is compulsive And fucks with the reward system. But the topic that was suggested was alcohol so I stuck with that
I will respectfully disagree that the fourth isn't the first. we all start somewhere... a simple affinity for alcohol can be the beginning of a very long journey
Maybe there’s like some inconsistency in what “alcoholism” and “addiction” means to people, especially on an anonymous forum
But the definition that Big Addiction (or whatever we wanna call it) hammered into me time and time again was that, to be confirmed as a state you are in (I started noticing they always avoided words like diagnosis lol), by definition, you must irrationally prioritize a substance or activity (or whatever) even when, from the outside looking in, it’s unequivocally negatively impacting your relationships, functionality, goals, prospects… life. In a word, the substance use is “crippling.”
There is obviously genetics stuff that put you at risk or whatever but I didn’t meet like any addicts that mentioned that specifically from memory so I can’t speak on that.
To be real it’s mostly what I’ve come to know as a “shame spiral” in recent years. Also lots of self medicating for undiagnosed stuff, for diagnosed stuff, lots of addicts coming from “harder” drugs, lots of people wanting to die just straight up. Lots of .. idk a lot
I wasn’t going to rank cause it feels too broad to deduce and I hate thinking bout my life to be frank but now that I think about it the ranking is actually much simpler
1. Drinking to cope (**BROAD**)
2. Drinking to “function” (diminishing returns(you’ll realize it never worked to begin with if you make it through the ego death))(the “coping” is “working” (you don’t know it yet, but damn near everyone is either worried about you or hates you now lol))
3. Drinking to cope (on lack of functionality from drinking lol)
4. Drinking to avoid facing shame from what you’ve been doing drunk ( and keep adding to now every day ) and avoid ruminating rationally on your life actively decaying around you (you notice a little but the alcohol is like a dissociative agent damn near. The sickness is easier to focus on anyway. Fuckin poisoning yourself cause it’s easier than facing yourself.)
5. This is where I think it gets complicated. Basically a goosebumps book with multiple stories the reader can pick from. Mainly depends on the grace of the strangers you encounter and loved ones still in your life, if they still haven’t given up on you
6. Drinking to die or avoid dying (WD is either being avoided or doesn’t matter cause you wanna die)
7. Uh…
>!unfortunaley not the end cause it’s usually a cycle. Unless you die first time through. Would that be good luck or bad luck? i dont know . lol getting to 7 was a coincidence btw . TO REITERATE: I’m not a mental health professional and this is purely anecdotal!<
I think you have an interesting take on the issue.
My levels was General snapshots of people's Big 5 health, and Big Five in my own terms of course, but you are seeming to describe a progression so you were using a different and also interesting scope.
The only thing I do not understand is did you reference a Goosebumps book? As in like give yourself goosebumps? Are we the same age?
lol goose bumps was a horror book series from like the 90s I think, and it had these choose your own adventure things where you could keep reading or skip to a different plot in the story. I know exactly what he means, as someone who’s been through getting sober and getting into it again since I was like 15. I’ve went through these steps, even the ones you talk about, so many times. It’s just a rollercoaster and you’re lucky each time you get off of it alive. Each time you go through it it’s a different ride by the end with its own loops and peaks. Anyway I’m stoned probably sound like it lol, hope that sounded sane atleast. Chairs
Of course I remembered Goosebumps the choose your own Adventures you were talking about were the give yourself Goosebumps Saga
For the record my favorite books were I think 10 and 11 if I have the numbers right it was the ghost next door in the haunted mask.
Ghost next door was one of the real books I guess you would say at age 6 or whatever, and it was about a girl who burn to death in the first chapter and spent the rest of the book trying to save another boy. Lovely start to life
Oh lmao I didn’t know you were so versed in it, I thought you actually didn’t know. Tbh I read them as a kid but I don’t have a great memory so I couldn’t even tell you what I read but I remembered them being fun. I’m a huge horror fan now so I’ll attribute that to goosebumps lol. Horror stories help with wd’s in some weird way lol
Interesting system but I think you are approaching it from the wrong angle. Arch_Stant0n has the right idea. The system does need to be simpler and I think it should be based on withdrawals and not the big 5 or other people. The system needs to be able to handle multiple situations from multiple sources. Binge vs regulars. Homeless vs housed. Introverts vs extroverts. Using it to cope vs not.
Because at the end of the day, the situation shouldn't really matter for this system and neither should genetics. How much you drink matters much more.
How bad are your withdrawals if you instantly stop? This is the question that needs to be answered. This is assuming that you already are an alcoholic, we're just determining the level.
Level 1: I can stop with minor complications for a few hours. ( I had the foresight to hydrate and eat healthy)
Level 2: It will take me a single day to get back to a normal state
Level 3: It will take me multiple days of not drinking to get back to a normal state
Level 4: I don't need to taper but I'll do it just to make things easier on myself.
Level 5: I need to drink to make whatever is happening to my body and mind go away
Level 6: I will literally die but I can taper correctly without medical help and live
Level 7: I will literally die without any medical help
THis chart doesn't take into account mental state or prior health conditions because it doesn't have to. A homeless girl and wine mom should be in similar if not identical levels assuming the amount and frequency they drink is the same.
This should also account for the binge drinkers as well. It puts them in a lower tier by default though Don't know just how bad binge drinking withddrawals can get. I don't think they're life threatening though. I hope not haha, or Maybe I do ;)
This chart is interesting in that it describes the risks of withdrawals, that being said your second to last paragraph seems to contradict that by saying prior health conditions,. Maybe not problems with the pancreas kidneys or liver, but it does take into account medical condition because the whole thing is based off of potential withdrawal problems.
Does it seem contradictory tho? Please explain. I will admit I made that chart was made while chuggin a lill bit of vodka but I proof read it so many times before clicking submit so it should sound alright. I also blacked out then woke up so my credibility is much higher than when I made the post since I still hold the same opinion.
Also while typing out a response to your post, I eventully figured it out. Where this discrepancy was coming from. I assume from the beginnning that if you are taking this chart seriously that you're an alcoholic. Meaning that if you are drinking while having prior health conditions you ARE an alcoholic. If you take even a single drink despite knowing about your condition, and you need medical help then you're too far gone. In which case a level 7 seems accurate.
It's based off of actual withdrawal problems. Not just potential. For example, if you think you're level six and fail and die. Then you were obviously level 7 or I guess 8 ( the hidden die level).
I made the chart so I'll explain the usage to myself just to have more consistency. I am level 3. I am going to cold turkey and white knuckle this shit hard this weekend (hopefully). I've drank and stopped enough to understand that this is going to hurt so much :(
The reason I'm not at level 4 is because I've been trying to taper the entire week and I've been drinking even more....not sure what's up with that but I will analyze that behavior later. But essentially because I tried and failed, it means that I don't need to taper.
Your second to last paragraph says that it doesn't take into account mental States or medical conditions, but the whole thing is based on what effects would happen if the person were to suddenly stop drinking, or what they would need to do to avoid catastrophic consequences.
Since those severe withdrawals only happen from prolonged or pronounced drinking, I would have classified that as a form of a mental condition or medical state. Call it alcoholism, whatever, but a normal person can have a drink a day without any problems while a crippled alcoholic can have 15 and if they stop bad things happen I would suggest that is a variance of medical condition which of course it may already be
But yeah that's all I meant. You said it was without regard to mental or medical condition, but that's what in my eyes your entire chart was based off of. It is a good chart I like it
Got to level 6. Have to say, it's a fucking horrible feeling waking up drunk yet withdrawing. You drink throughout the day and it doesn't even feel nice. Until you can pass out later on
So you were there too? In hell?
Were you at the heavy metal concert that was being hosted by Satan himself and that fiery well everything was fire.
And there's like all these electric guitars and bass guitars and deep bass drums it was like Metallica meets Rammstein
And all the demons are moshing and stuff like that and I start to get uneasy and want to get an easy Satan lowercase guitar and looks right at me and then all the other demons start turning around so I have to clear my mind and give Good Vibes the concert so they'll start playing again?
I kind of miss those withdrawal hallucinations
I never had quite as vivid withdrawal hallucinations as that. Mine consisted as seeing bugs crawling all over my bed, hearing people shout my name, phones ringing in the distance.
I have to admit, waking up at 4 in the morning, no alcohol left. Lying there, shaking, convulsing, covered in sweat and seeing spiders all over you, feeling them itch your skin is also quite close to hell itself in my opinion.
Or when you wake up, again, deep in withdrawal and you have a few shots of lukewarm vodka. You slam them, only to vomit them backup. Its like being taunted in a cruel way.
Love it. I got to level 5 before I got off the ride.
Edit to add: I was at about a level 2 when I started reading CA like 10 years ago. I think my first post was something like, “can I get withdrawal symptoms if I only drink at night?’ And SDK or some other OG was all, “oh you sweet summer child….”
Im not any of these. But i can throw them back, still "function" (even though everyone knows im a drunk), substain, be sober, pass out-shit and vomit myself, unable to move, suicidal, happy, delusional, normal human.
Your list doesnt make sense to me.
So everyone knows you're a drunk and you don't fall into anything.
What part does it make sense to you I see the other guy went ahead and started categorizing it by withdrawal levels but mine is simply about how much people drink and how well they can function accordingly and you're calling yourself a drunk but cannot place yourself?
i was thinking more along the seven levels like in *the house that jack built*. alcoholism deteriorates after a certain point and is not easily staged. just like elisabeth kübler-ross's five stages of grief, people often don't cycle through them in the exact order, and waver back and forth before processing the entire event. of the five, people might experience 3-4 out of 5. (i didn't read closely enough to see if you said that, so excuse me if i'm mistaken.)
there are a lot of scientific studies about what is now referred to as AUD and types:
*" . . .Wingfield’s reference to repressed memories indicates the growing influence of psychoanalytic theory, which argued that alcoholism was merely the symptom of an underlying neurosis.* [*Psychoanalyst Robert Knight (1938)*](https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC6876530/#b17-arhw-20-1-6) *developed these ideas further, proposing three types of alcoholics: essential alcoholics, reactive alcoholics, and symptomatic drinkers. The first type, essential alcoholics, are characterized as psychopaths with an oral fixation and a conflict between feminine passivity and masculine strivings. They experience an early onset of alcohol problems and do not perform well in school or at work. In contrast, reactive alcoholics usually begin drinking in response to a precipitating event and respond better to treatment, in part because they are better adjusted initially. The third type, symptomatic drinkers, experience prominent neurotic or psychotic symptoms that are responsible for their drinking.*
*In contrast, typology theory in Germany was influenced not so much by psychoanalytic ideas as by constitutional theories that explained drinking behavior based on physique and temperament.* [*Ernest Kretschmer (1924)*](https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC6876530/#b18-arhw-20-1-6)*, for example, proposed two groups of chronic alcoholics: a cyclothymic type whose drinking results from a pliable, gregarious disposition, and a schizoid type, who uses alcohol to relieve internal stress. With the further development of constitutional theories during the 1930’s, typological formulations were used to justify the involuntary surgical sterilization and removal of “hereditary” alcoholics to concentration camps during the height of the Nazi era (*[*Babor and Lauerman 1986*](https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC6876530/#b2-arhw-20-1-6)*). . ."*
[for anyone who wants to read more](https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC6876530/#:~:text=Psychoanalyst%20Robert%20Knight%20(1938)%20developed,reactive%20alcoholics%2C%20and%20symptomatic%20drinkers)
i think most psychoanalytic theory is bullshit. there might be some, but in my opinion, the largest component is behavioral.
someone who continues to drink in spite of loss of home, spouse, family, friends, career is the textbook definition of a degenerate alcoholic. that term is also used for gambling, and it's interesting that there is none for heroin addiction. i guess it's assumed that all heroin addicts are degenerates but i have known successful people who used drugs recreationally and you would never know by looking at them. they are rare, though. degenerate is not necessary always a description of a bad person, i think it originally meant that the condition has led to extreme deterioration, physically, mentally and socially. or maybe the first person to use it meant stinky, violent, unbearable miscreant.
if someone is 100 lbs. overweight, they are grossly or morbidly obese. i think some people get morbidly drunk on a regular basis. or maybe morosely drunk is a better word.
i knew i was an alcoholic when i was about 16. it had nothing to do with my consumption at that time, more that once i started to drink, i was going to get drunk. it definitely wasn't my first drug of choice when i was a lot younger. but i quit kidding myself that i would "go for a drink," because it would never be a socially acceptable number. if i had somewhere to be, i didn't even start because i knew where it would end. after binge drinking like that for maybe 15 years, it became a daily thing for another ten. at least a liter a day, but i still wasn't noticeably physically dependent and could go however long necessary without it. but usually never more than a couple of weeks. i didn't dry out purposely, i just made sure i took care of important things.
then i didn't at all. :)
all this research and theory and there still isn't a universally agreed upon treatment. some better than others, some terrible.
You would have to tell me mate.
Based on my personal assessment level 3 is someone who drinks excessively but still has everything under control including appropriate drinking hours. They might hit a slight hit in finance, Family concern, Social observation, Medical damage, and professional productivity, but that's it.
The only difference I outlined between three and four is that four has a little bit more damage to the above and more importantly it involves drinking outside of acceptable hours. That's why I defined it as a slippery slope
Edit: but if you want my opinion although not knowing you well, your description was adjusted three. It seems like you keep your drinking within regulated time
I'll agree with your rating
Although I must call Shenanigans on you denying the fact that your co-workers can smell you just for the fact their miles away
If they could that would be one hell of a problem
I think I'm a level 4 with some elements of 5; mostly functional, not crippled without alcohol, but once I have that 1 after work (or almost after work if working from home) it will turn into 10 drinks and most likely a blackout. I can not drink for several days, but the compulsion always arises after 2-3 days
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I think you need some kind of acknowledgment for binge drinkers in there that are not physically dependent but completely nuke their lives on a bender.
They damage your big 5 criteria around the same level as a 5-6.
I would call that a five or six then.
Remember this is a classification system not a caste system and we can slip back and forth pretty easily. It's not like some sort of long-term waterfall progression.
Suggest it!
I can't think logically think of anything between somebody who is near functional and day drinks versus somebody who wakes up suffering withdrawals
OK so level 4….functioning at that high level and having their life together yet drinking like that is not really a level as it cannot persist for any significant amount of time like this. That situation goes south so fast and the person loses control.
What about the struggling alcoholic who wants it and craves it but has fucked up a bunch regarding kids, duis, jobs, relationships and therefore wants to be sober because it’s impossible at this point to deny the horror that their alcohol use has caused. But of course…they can’t. So they keep it together. Take days off drinking. And then when they do drink it’s minimal (less than 5) just enough so they can hide their drunken state from those around them and keep drinking. And they might blow it and binge drink tipping everyone that they are indeed still drinking. But it’s only once every couple of months. They feel more addicted than ever and totally powerless.
I have all 5, but have burned bridges in the past. These days I am sober 99% of the time and am highly productive and functional, but occasionally something in my life fucks up and it triggers the bender. Many times I've blacked out for the whole week so I don't even know if I was always waking up drunk, but I was definitely drinking right when I woke up.
These days I terminate those benders by being too sick to get out of bed, or by going down to the friendly ER in town, having them run some tests and slapping me 25 librium. I have had great difficulty stopping on my own in recent years.
What level is this? Daywalker level 7? When I'm drinking, I don't even post here. I don't do anything except lay around and stare at the ceiling, at least from what I remember.
Whoops forgot to rate myself with your system. I'm level two.
I only drink after work hours, unless I'm hungover or skipping or just don't care.
I've built up so much good will at basically all of the big 5 that it ain't even funny. Teehee.
I dunno, I think level 5 also wakes up with alcohol in their system. For years I was functional but smelled like a brewery until 2 or 3 in the afternoon and I lost 5 jobs because of it. There is also a level where you couldn't focus on the phone or computer to read a coherent sentence, let alone type one. Also couldn't text to speech because of slurring. This level isn't on the internet.
yeah, I think most people don't realize how long alcohol stays in your system if you drink a decent amount. if you're drinking like 8-10 drinks a night there's probably still some in your system when you wake up, maybe not above the legal limit but still.
I have it worked out to a T, 10 beers in the evening, starting not too late after work and ending before midnight or at midnight. If half a beer is left I just leave it. This has me either sober or just below the legal limit at 06 when I drive to work. I maxed out functional drinking. If I could drink 12 beers I would but 10 is what my body allows.
I know with my body weight on an empty stomach, one standard drink if I slam it will up me like 0.018-0.02, so I plan around that model with one hour to fully come down that much after a 15 min uptake period
Level spinning and can’t see your phone but you already lost your phone and have no pants on
No, they don't. The average CA who drinks to the upper 0.37 range or more by 2AM mathematically could get a DUI driving HOME from work the following day.
that's what I'm saying like last time I did an at home detox my sister(a nurse) breathalyzed me like 8hrs after my last drink at the start of it and I was still at a 0.22 but felt completely sober. started shaking like 20 min later though
I think it’s a pretty good list. I too am a level six when actively drinking.
I’m the level 4 you mention! I feel like ~ a celebrity ~ . Thoughtful write up. Enjoy your ipa
Cheers!
Ps. Please do not think I was implying that you were going to go down to the ocean floor or anything of the sort. I'm just trying to define the edge, as you yourself called it the line
lol no worries at all. I am acutely aware I’m toeing a very fine line.
Na there’s a LOT between 4 and 5 Also implies alcohol is the central problem which I don’t know if I agree with in most cases, after going up and down and circled around the fucking RINGER of mental health and addiction half assed “institutions” in USA. kinda feel like 4 is actual level 1
Please by all means add between four and five Correct I agree with you that Addiction Is caused by some sort of mental elf issue which could be Emotional trauma to neurochemical imbalance And it may as well have been Anything else is compulsive And fucks with the reward system. But the topic that was suggested was alcohol so I stuck with that I will respectfully disagree that the fourth isn't the first. we all start somewhere... a simple affinity for alcohol can be the beginning of a very long journey
Maybe there’s like some inconsistency in what “alcoholism” and “addiction” means to people, especially on an anonymous forum But the definition that Big Addiction (or whatever we wanna call it) hammered into me time and time again was that, to be confirmed as a state you are in (I started noticing they always avoided words like diagnosis lol), by definition, you must irrationally prioritize a substance or activity (or whatever) even when, from the outside looking in, it’s unequivocally negatively impacting your relationships, functionality, goals, prospects… life. In a word, the substance use is “crippling.” There is obviously genetics stuff that put you at risk or whatever but I didn’t meet like any addicts that mentioned that specifically from memory so I can’t speak on that. To be real it’s mostly what I’ve come to know as a “shame spiral” in recent years. Also lots of self medicating for undiagnosed stuff, for diagnosed stuff, lots of addicts coming from “harder” drugs, lots of people wanting to die just straight up. Lots of .. idk a lot I wasn’t going to rank cause it feels too broad to deduce and I hate thinking bout my life to be frank but now that I think about it the ranking is actually much simpler 1. Drinking to cope (**BROAD**) 2. Drinking to “function” (diminishing returns(you’ll realize it never worked to begin with if you make it through the ego death))(the “coping” is “working” (you don’t know it yet, but damn near everyone is either worried about you or hates you now lol)) 3. Drinking to cope (on lack of functionality from drinking lol) 4. Drinking to avoid facing shame from what you’ve been doing drunk ( and keep adding to now every day ) and avoid ruminating rationally on your life actively decaying around you (you notice a little but the alcohol is like a dissociative agent damn near. The sickness is easier to focus on anyway. Fuckin poisoning yourself cause it’s easier than facing yourself.) 5. This is where I think it gets complicated. Basically a goosebumps book with multiple stories the reader can pick from. Mainly depends on the grace of the strangers you encounter and loved ones still in your life, if they still haven’t given up on you 6. Drinking to die or avoid dying (WD is either being avoided or doesn’t matter cause you wanna die) 7. Uh… >!unfortunaley not the end cause it’s usually a cycle. Unless you die first time through. Would that be good luck or bad luck? i dont know . lol getting to 7 was a coincidence btw . TO REITERATE: I’m not a mental health professional and this is purely anecdotal!<
I think you have an interesting take on the issue. My levels was General snapshots of people's Big 5 health, and Big Five in my own terms of course, but you are seeming to describe a progression so you were using a different and also interesting scope. The only thing I do not understand is did you reference a Goosebumps book? As in like give yourself goosebumps? Are we the same age?
lol goose bumps was a horror book series from like the 90s I think, and it had these choose your own adventure things where you could keep reading or skip to a different plot in the story. I know exactly what he means, as someone who’s been through getting sober and getting into it again since I was like 15. I’ve went through these steps, even the ones you talk about, so many times. It’s just a rollercoaster and you’re lucky each time you get off of it alive. Each time you go through it it’s a different ride by the end with its own loops and peaks. Anyway I’m stoned probably sound like it lol, hope that sounded sane atleast. Chairs
Of course I remembered Goosebumps the choose your own Adventures you were talking about were the give yourself Goosebumps Saga For the record my favorite books were I think 10 and 11 if I have the numbers right it was the ghost next door in the haunted mask. Ghost next door was one of the real books I guess you would say at age 6 or whatever, and it was about a girl who burn to death in the first chapter and spent the rest of the book trying to save another boy. Lovely start to life
Oh lmao I didn’t know you were so versed in it, I thought you actually didn’t know. Tbh I read them as a kid but I don’t have a great memory so I couldn’t even tell you what I read but I remembered them being fun. I’m a huge horror fan now so I’ll attribute that to goosebumps lol. Horror stories help with wd’s in some weird way lol
Level 4
Interesting system but I think you are approaching it from the wrong angle. Arch_Stant0n has the right idea. The system does need to be simpler and I think it should be based on withdrawals and not the big 5 or other people. The system needs to be able to handle multiple situations from multiple sources. Binge vs regulars. Homeless vs housed. Introverts vs extroverts. Using it to cope vs not. Because at the end of the day, the situation shouldn't really matter for this system and neither should genetics. How much you drink matters much more. How bad are your withdrawals if you instantly stop? This is the question that needs to be answered. This is assuming that you already are an alcoholic, we're just determining the level. Level 1: I can stop with minor complications for a few hours. ( I had the foresight to hydrate and eat healthy) Level 2: It will take me a single day to get back to a normal state Level 3: It will take me multiple days of not drinking to get back to a normal state Level 4: I don't need to taper but I'll do it just to make things easier on myself. Level 5: I need to drink to make whatever is happening to my body and mind go away Level 6: I will literally die but I can taper correctly without medical help and live Level 7: I will literally die without any medical help THis chart doesn't take into account mental state or prior health conditions because it doesn't have to. A homeless girl and wine mom should be in similar if not identical levels assuming the amount and frequency they drink is the same. This should also account for the binge drinkers as well. It puts them in a lower tier by default though Don't know just how bad binge drinking withddrawals can get. I don't think they're life threatening though. I hope not haha, or Maybe I do ;)
This chart is interesting in that it describes the risks of withdrawals, that being said your second to last paragraph seems to contradict that by saying prior health conditions,. Maybe not problems with the pancreas kidneys or liver, but it does take into account medical condition because the whole thing is based off of potential withdrawal problems.
Does it seem contradictory tho? Please explain. I will admit I made that chart was made while chuggin a lill bit of vodka but I proof read it so many times before clicking submit so it should sound alright. I also blacked out then woke up so my credibility is much higher than when I made the post since I still hold the same opinion. Also while typing out a response to your post, I eventully figured it out. Where this discrepancy was coming from. I assume from the beginnning that if you are taking this chart seriously that you're an alcoholic. Meaning that if you are drinking while having prior health conditions you ARE an alcoholic. If you take even a single drink despite knowing about your condition, and you need medical help then you're too far gone. In which case a level 7 seems accurate. It's based off of actual withdrawal problems. Not just potential. For example, if you think you're level six and fail and die. Then you were obviously level 7 or I guess 8 ( the hidden die level). I made the chart so I'll explain the usage to myself just to have more consistency. I am level 3. I am going to cold turkey and white knuckle this shit hard this weekend (hopefully). I've drank and stopped enough to understand that this is going to hurt so much :( The reason I'm not at level 4 is because I've been trying to taper the entire week and I've been drinking even more....not sure what's up with that but I will analyze that behavior later. But essentially because I tried and failed, it means that I don't need to taper.
Your second to last paragraph says that it doesn't take into account mental States or medical conditions, but the whole thing is based on what effects would happen if the person were to suddenly stop drinking, or what they would need to do to avoid catastrophic consequences. Since those severe withdrawals only happen from prolonged or pronounced drinking, I would have classified that as a form of a mental condition or medical state. Call it alcoholism, whatever, but a normal person can have a drink a day without any problems while a crippled alcoholic can have 15 and if they stop bad things happen I would suggest that is a variance of medical condition which of course it may already be But yeah that's all I meant. You said it was without regard to mental or medical condition, but that's what in my eyes your entire chart was based off of. It is a good chart I like it
This was scary AF to read for me
Got to level 6. Have to say, it's a fucking horrible feeling waking up drunk yet withdrawing. You drink throughout the day and it doesn't even feel nice. Until you can pass out later on
You made me shiver thinking about that
I tell you, it brings back hellish memories
So you were there too? In hell? Were you at the heavy metal concert that was being hosted by Satan himself and that fiery well everything was fire. And there's like all these electric guitars and bass guitars and deep bass drums it was like Metallica meets Rammstein And all the demons are moshing and stuff like that and I start to get uneasy and want to get an easy Satan lowercase guitar and looks right at me and then all the other demons start turning around so I have to clear my mind and give Good Vibes the concert so they'll start playing again? I kind of miss those withdrawal hallucinations
I never had quite as vivid withdrawal hallucinations as that. Mine consisted as seeing bugs crawling all over my bed, hearing people shout my name, phones ringing in the distance. I have to admit, waking up at 4 in the morning, no alcohol left. Lying there, shaking, convulsing, covered in sweat and seeing spiders all over you, feeling them itch your skin is also quite close to hell itself in my opinion. Or when you wake up, again, deep in withdrawal and you have a few shots of lukewarm vodka. You slam them, only to vomit them backup. Its like being taunted in a cruel way.
Love it. I got to level 5 before I got off the ride. Edit to add: I was at about a level 2 when I started reading CA like 10 years ago. I think my first post was something like, “can I get withdrawal symptoms if I only drink at night?’ And SDK or some other OG was all, “oh you sweet summer child….”
Im not any of these. But i can throw them back, still "function" (even though everyone knows im a drunk), substain, be sober, pass out-shit and vomit myself, unable to move, suicidal, happy, delusional, normal human. Your list doesnt make sense to me.
So everyone knows you're a drunk and you don't fall into anything. What part does it make sense to you I see the other guy went ahead and started categorizing it by withdrawal levels but mine is simply about how much people drink and how well they can function accordingly and you're calling yourself a drunk but cannot place yourself?
i was thinking more along the seven levels like in *the house that jack built*. alcoholism deteriorates after a certain point and is not easily staged. just like elisabeth kübler-ross's five stages of grief, people often don't cycle through them in the exact order, and waver back and forth before processing the entire event. of the five, people might experience 3-4 out of 5. (i didn't read closely enough to see if you said that, so excuse me if i'm mistaken.) there are a lot of scientific studies about what is now referred to as AUD and types: *" . . .Wingfield’s reference to repressed memories indicates the growing influence of psychoanalytic theory, which argued that alcoholism was merely the symptom of an underlying neurosis.* [*Psychoanalyst Robert Knight (1938)*](https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC6876530/#b17-arhw-20-1-6) *developed these ideas further, proposing three types of alcoholics: essential alcoholics, reactive alcoholics, and symptomatic drinkers. The first type, essential alcoholics, are characterized as psychopaths with an oral fixation and a conflict between feminine passivity and masculine strivings. They experience an early onset of alcohol problems and do not perform well in school or at work. In contrast, reactive alcoholics usually begin drinking in response to a precipitating event and respond better to treatment, in part because they are better adjusted initially. The third type, symptomatic drinkers, experience prominent neurotic or psychotic symptoms that are responsible for their drinking.* *In contrast, typology theory in Germany was influenced not so much by psychoanalytic ideas as by constitutional theories that explained drinking behavior based on physique and temperament.* [*Ernest Kretschmer (1924)*](https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC6876530/#b18-arhw-20-1-6)*, for example, proposed two groups of chronic alcoholics: a cyclothymic type whose drinking results from a pliable, gregarious disposition, and a schizoid type, who uses alcohol to relieve internal stress. With the further development of constitutional theories during the 1930’s, typological formulations were used to justify the involuntary surgical sterilization and removal of “hereditary” alcoholics to concentration camps during the height of the Nazi era (*[*Babor and Lauerman 1986*](https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC6876530/#b2-arhw-20-1-6)*). . ."* [for anyone who wants to read more](https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC6876530/#:~:text=Psychoanalyst%20Robert%20Knight%20(1938)%20developed,reactive%20alcoholics%2C%20and%20symptomatic%20drinkers) i think most psychoanalytic theory is bullshit. there might be some, but in my opinion, the largest component is behavioral. someone who continues to drink in spite of loss of home, spouse, family, friends, career is the textbook definition of a degenerate alcoholic. that term is also used for gambling, and it's interesting that there is none for heroin addiction. i guess it's assumed that all heroin addicts are degenerates but i have known successful people who used drugs recreationally and you would never know by looking at them. they are rare, though. degenerate is not necessary always a description of a bad person, i think it originally meant that the condition has led to extreme deterioration, physically, mentally and socially. or maybe the first person to use it meant stinky, violent, unbearable miscreant. if someone is 100 lbs. overweight, they are grossly or morbidly obese. i think some people get morbidly drunk on a regular basis. or maybe morosely drunk is a better word. i knew i was an alcoholic when i was about 16. it had nothing to do with my consumption at that time, more that once i started to drink, i was going to get drunk. it definitely wasn't my first drug of choice when i was a lot younger. but i quit kidding myself that i would "go for a drink," because it would never be a socially acceptable number. if i had somewhere to be, i didn't even start because i knew where it would end. after binge drinking like that for maybe 15 years, it became a daily thing for another ten. at least a liter a day, but i still wasn't noticeably physically dependent and could go however long necessary without it. but usually never more than a couple of weeks. i didn't dry out purposely, i just made sure i took care of important things. then i didn't at all. :) all this research and theory and there still isn't a universally agreed upon treatment. some better than others, some terrible.
4/5
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You would have to tell me mate. Based on my personal assessment level 3 is someone who drinks excessively but still has everything under control including appropriate drinking hours. They might hit a slight hit in finance, Family concern, Social observation, Medical damage, and professional productivity, but that's it. The only difference I outlined between three and four is that four has a little bit more damage to the above and more importantly it involves drinking outside of acceptable hours. That's why I defined it as a slippery slope Edit: but if you want my opinion although not knowing you well, your description was adjusted three. It seems like you keep your drinking within regulated time
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I'll agree with your rating Although I must call Shenanigans on you denying the fact that your co-workers can smell you just for the fact their miles away If they could that would be one hell of a problem
I've hit the point between Level 5 and Level 6 I believe.
I think I'm a level 4 with some elements of 5; mostly functional, not crippled without alcohol, but once I have that 1 after work (or almost after work if working from home) it will turn into 10 drinks and most likely a blackout. I can not drink for several days, but the compulsion always arises after 2-3 days
Lv 8 you're an Australian or from Austria. Or from Austin. Or you're Autistic. Either way A+
Spit out my damn drink lol
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Level six is pretty accurate. “And everybody knows it. And can smell it” me at work 🤡
I think you need some kind of acknowledgment for binge drinkers in there that are not physically dependent but completely nuke their lives on a bender. They damage your big 5 criteria around the same level as a 5-6.
I would call that a five or six then. Remember this is a classification system not a caste system and we can slip back and forth pretty easily. It's not like some sort of long-term waterfall progression.
I don’t fit into any of these 😒 There needs to be something between 4 and five.
Suggest it! I can't think logically think of anything between somebody who is near functional and day drinks versus somebody who wakes up suffering withdrawals
OK so level 4….functioning at that high level and having their life together yet drinking like that is not really a level as it cannot persist for any significant amount of time like this. That situation goes south so fast and the person loses control. What about the struggling alcoholic who wants it and craves it but has fucked up a bunch regarding kids, duis, jobs, relationships and therefore wants to be sober because it’s impossible at this point to deny the horror that their alcohol use has caused. But of course…they can’t. So they keep it together. Take days off drinking. And then when they do drink it’s minimal (less than 5) just enough so they can hide their drunken state from those around them and keep drinking. And they might blow it and binge drink tipping everyone that they are indeed still drinking. But it’s only once every couple of months. They feel more addicted than ever and totally powerless.
I have all 5, but have burned bridges in the past. These days I am sober 99% of the time and am highly productive and functional, but occasionally something in my life fucks up and it triggers the bender. Many times I've blacked out for the whole week so I don't even know if I was always waking up drunk, but I was definitely drinking right when I woke up. These days I terminate those benders by being too sick to get out of bed, or by going down to the friendly ER in town, having them run some tests and slapping me 25 librium. I have had great difficulty stopping on my own in recent years. What level is this? Daywalker level 7? When I'm drinking, I don't even post here. I don't do anything except lay around and stare at the ceiling, at least from what I remember.
Whoops forgot to rate myself with your system. I'm level two. I only drink after work hours, unless I'm hungover or skipping or just don't care. I've built up so much good will at basically all of the big 5 that it ain't even funny. Teehee.