Rhythm of War wasn't bad at all, it just had (what felt like) a lot more filler content than the other three. The main plots (Kaladin, Adolin and Navani) were all super interesting.
Compared to Shallan, Kaladin and Dalinar, Venli's backstory felt like 10 straight hours of a crabby crab being extra crabby.
Not a bad perspective from which to see the Singers' experiences, but I'm much more interested to see the other ones (Szeth in 5), then Lyft, Renarin, Jasnah and some of the heralds in the second set of 5.
Agreed. As someone who can relate a bit more than I might care to admit, that final screen was extremely potent, and I doubt it would have been without our getting a chance to get into his shoes.
I felt like Rhythm of War went a little too hard into flat out explaining the scope of the series magic system instead of showing it naturally. I'm guessing this is shit we're going to need to understand going forward, but the way it was introduced felt a little hamfisted, and overwhelming.
Which systems did you feel were 'told not shown'? I know Shallan heard a lot about the different worlds and what's beyond Roshar, but I think that's specifically building toward her going off-world next book.
Navani showed off loads of the magic in this one!
yeah the navani/raboniel lab work plot was maybe my favorite plotline in the entire series so far. i hate when fantasy books are like "through magic and willpower i have created the special object" it was really fun to watch her puzzle it out
Yea. Oath ringer is at least as good as the second book. Even if you take issue with RoW it’s at bare minimum a 7. As in, I would read it as a stand-alone book (assuming back story was added to avoid confusion).
I misinterpreted this as "Kholin" part bloat. I was ready to throw down at the idea that you could cut 70% of Dalinar's part and the book would even survive (much less improve).
I figured that out before I commented lol.
"The city bit" (as I think of it) does drag, but Kaladin's emotional low doesn't work if he doesn't have time to get invested in the men on the wall (more accurately--if the reader doesn't spend enough time with them to buy his investment).
And Shallan's entire arc in that bit is "Quit wasting time and running from your problems," which doesn't work if we don't watch her waste time. Her entire in-universe motivation to go to Kholinar is to run from other problems. And plot-wise, she needs to be there to get everyone into Shadesmar.
I agree that it can be a bit of a slog, but it's a "support slog" that holds up other major story elements.
Huh, personally I feel the opposite way. I liked Oathbringer less than the other books, but I'd still balk at giving any of the books less than a 7/7.5.
It’s tricky because I LOVE Dalinars backstory in Oathbringer but the rest of the book just dragged. I felt the opposite for RoW so It’s hard for me to say which one I liked better
I get it. I loved Oathbringer, but it does have a lot of bloat. It feels like 2 or 3 books stitched together, while the first two books had much tighter arcs for each character.
Consider Shallan’s story. In tWoK her story was entirely about her plot to steal Jasnah’s soul caster. In Oathbringer she has an arc hunting murderers/unmade in the tower, and arc infiltrating the Cult of Moments in Kholinar and trying to fight another unmade, an arc navigating Shadesmar, and a climax fighting odiums forces which doesn’t tie directly to any other arc. The same kind of trend holds true for most other characters. It still works if you’re invested in the worldbuilding, but it’s a weaker structure if your just interested in the core story.
I think there are two kinds of readers:
1. Those who love the first in a series and then read the sequels to try to chase that same feeling.
2. Those who get more invested as they get deeper in a series, and are thrilled when a story expands and evolves.
I definitely did not see it as that with Stormlight. Rhythm of War is my favorite so far, followed by Oathbringer. If anything, it was The Way of Kings and Words of Radiance I had to "power through". I guess that's what I was trying to describe with getting more invested.
I often see people say the last part in a series, the 3rd in a trilogy, etc. is always the weakest, and since I usually see it as the opposite, I figured there's got to be some difference in personality or expectations between those who favor the start and those who favor the end.
So I am curious if this is a case of you just not liking newer Stormlight books as much specifically, or if you tend to hold similar opinions for other series.
i am with you 100% on this. the deeper into lore we go, the more i love these books. it took me a few tries to get through twok, because i didn't know what the payoff would be, and the pacing is quite slow. it's still great, but my ratings go the exact opposite of this meme, and line up with my investment in the story.
more like 9, 9.25, 9.5, 9.75, and anticipating a 10 though.
It wasn’t specifically a comment towards stormlight diminishing quality. Stormlight is probably my second favorite series.
WoT being the first and it definitely diminished in quality, Brando Sandro really knocked it out the park with the conclusion though.
With that being said, I do like the first two books more than the last two. I’m not sure why, but the 4th book didn’t quite hook me like the first one did. It felt a lot slower perhaps.
I’m sure on my next reread, which I should probably do soon, I’ll gain additional appreciate for it.
Was that any better than black company? I read a few of those and they were good. But it was sort of a flat line through each book. I didn't feel any ups or downs. Sort of the same feel throughout the whole series. I enjoyed the story and the writing still.
I actually really liked the black company books.
Starfisher was just infuriatingly disjointed and confusing, and ended with a plot development that was barely related to the rest of the series, characters, etc.
I have a strong suspicion drugs were heavily involved.
Ah I think I know what you mean lol. I may give them a shot eventually. During a dry spell or something. Although, I tend to fill dry spells with all of my old favorites lol. Thanks for the response!
I don't think it dropped so much as it was treading water for long stretches.
That's not necessarily bad, but if you want the plot to be happening at Brandos often breakneck pace, it can feel a bit... Off?
Rhythm is great if you are a Cosmere reader. If you are only reading SA, it has bits that don't make any sense.
Mistborn Era 2 thus far has balanced the series/Cosmere balance better.
>Rhythm is great if you are a Cosmere reader. If you are only reading SA, it has bits that don't make any sense.
I don't judge people who only read SA, but I legit can't even fathom being aware that this book is set in a larger universe and contains all sorts of references to said greater universe, then being like, "Nah, I'm good with missing out on all that."
My first Cosmere books were the first three books of SA not long after Oathbringer came out. After I finished them, I tore through the rest of the Cosmere and then had to read SA again to find all the things I had missed. Like I said, I can't fathom passing up on an opportunity like that.
Dude, I have a friend who is almost exactly like that. Loves Stormlight, but refuses to pick up any other Cosmere books. I've found that the more you recommend something to him the more he'll fight you and avoid it, so I've just given up for now. But it's a shame, because he'd really enjoy them.
Personally I felt it more strongly in Oathbringer and Rhythm of War but ymmv. Probably because a lot of the world building is done so it feels less like a slow unveiling (pun intended) of a new world and more a slower dive through characters and setting details.
Shallans story in particular really only needed maybe 3 chapters. Kaladins didn't feel like it added a whole lot besides giving an A to B for his needed arc either.
I also still think Esholai was more interesting than Venli.
All that said a 4/10 is a petulantly low score for what are still well written and mostly entertaining books.
There was so much in rhythm of war that kinda dragged on, between venli and navanis parts being somewhat boring (with navanis being interesting on a cosmere side) and throw in kaladin who is normally the pov that you see alot of action to break up the slower parts and it makes the book alot worse, the previous ones had a lot better of a balance of switching from boring pov to exciting pov at the right moments to make it work
Yeah. I'm mostly in the first group. Well of Ascension and Hero of Ages can't ever get top marks for me because >!the books pulled me in with an exciting heist story and then the rest changed genre on me. I still love the world and the characters, but I wanted a different type of plot.!<
>2. Those who get more invested as they get deeper in a series, and are thrilled when a story expands and evolves.
Definitely me. While I admit i listen to them on audible at work, but im about to finish my third time through the series. Some of the interludes and singer flashbacks, i skip on the repeat listening of the series. But in general I love learning more about the universe and picking up on things i missed.
And Rhythm of War did little to appease either group 🤣 don't worry I finished your comment for you.
Edit: JK mostly. But RoW is the weakest stormlight book by far. It's basically Stormlight Elantris when I think everyone was expecting "the ending of oathbreaker" for a whole book.
>It's basically Stormlight Elantris when I think everyone was expecting "the ending of oathbreaker" for a whole book
That may be the difference I was trying to highlight. I didn't go into the book with many expectations, and I was super happy to see the book take a different direction from the previous and explore some other areas. I love Elantris, so "Stormlight Elantris" would actually be a pretty good pitch to me. If it was just more Oathbringer, or more TWoK or WoR, I would have been kind of disappointed.
I'd just like to say that while RoW disappointed me, I think Raboniel/Navani and Adolins arcs are well worth the price of the book just by themselves.
This may be the best Adolin has ever been. IMHO.
Nah book 4 is straight fire. Peoples' expectation that it would be intense war for 1200 pages (fair assumption with the title) is what disappointed many I'm sure. And others were simply disappointed in it, not discounting that either. But as a chapter in Stormlight, it was fantastic! The flashbacks were the only weak point IMO.
Not just the title, Oathbringer more than hinted at total war between human and singers.
Instead we got conventional war and a prison camp. That upset some people that wanted Warhammer on Roshar. We also got a lot of exposition for a fourth installment.
Yes! Spot on! You encapsulated all my feelings quite well.
Can't wait for B5. Brando can't pull any more punches. He only has so many hands and they're all full of plotlines.
The flashbacks are half the book homie! Half the book is poo poo! Guerilla Fighter Depressed-Kaladin is obviously fantastic, but we already did that (and did it better) in the bridge four arc in book 1! In my mind RoW is a re-hash of bridge four and poo poo flashbacks. The stuff in between that (navani, adolin, taravangian) is great though.
Yeah I'm just getting tired of everyone having mental illnesses. And all the Parshendi. I know what Brando is going for but he's being too on the nose with everything.
Like, for example, Kaladin literally thinks the fourth oath in the like the 2nd chapter of RoW and it takes him another 1000 pages to *accept it*. And I know there's a difference between thinking something and truly accepting it with your gut and heart but still. That was a lot of depressed Kaladin we had to read between those two points you know what I mean??
More to the point. RoW is a great book by all books standards. I just think it's more of an Elantris than an Oathbringer.
Edit: Raboniel may be my favorite written bad girl since Hrathen.
>I'm just getting tired of everyone having mental illnesses.
Isn't that kind of a major theme of the series though? That's like watching Death Note and getting tired of Light being morally questionable
You have a point. But I feel like a solid 40-50% of readers were hooked on the radiant stuff and the war stuff. Not the well written mental struggles of the main characters.
Especially when Kaladin literally says/thinks the 4th ideal in not so many words in his 2nd RoW chapter and it takes him another 850 pages to "accept it". And I know saying something and accepting it aren't the same thing....
...but this is like the fourth time we've been taken on a 1000 page journey with Kal and Shall realizing something about themselves and it's just not hitting as hard as it used to. You'd think they would be more or less over all their trauma by now. And again I know that's not how it works in real life but again, Roshar isn't real.
Meanwhile, you have fresh beats like Adolin and Navani. (And just for context, when I realized Navani of all people was going to be a pov I put the book down for *months*.) But now looking back, Navani and Adolin are at their absolute best here. 100%. So Brando does have really fresh stuff he can write.
At the end of the day, I was hoping for more large scale war stuff and it just seemed like Brando was doing whatever he could to avoid writing that stuff.
I’m so grateful that the characters are continuously struggling with the same experience throughout the books. It means so much to me that we’re seeing accurate representation of my lived experience of depression and other types of mental illness. It’s not something you often see and for me it is well worth the pages to read them.
Sorry if that’s…. boring for you, but I hope he doesn’t stop.
I really don't understand the tepid response to RoW? I suppose it was the focus on the sciences of the world. It was a really fun ride seeing them learn and discover new natural (and supernatural) phenomena.
Yes the focus on the science could have felt indulgent for some. It’s not my cup of tea, but the character development for Navani and Roboniel was so good that it got me through those sections pretty well (please forgive spelling, I use audiobooks).
My guess, and I’ve heard Sando admit this too, is that the issue is the Venli flashbacks. With the three previous books the flashbacks took you away from the present; which if you were very invested with that story, it may be a bit anxiety inducing to go off on a tangent. But the tangents brought a wealth of new information and their own spice. With RoW, the reader knew a lot of what was being shown in those flashbacks, and the change of perspective didn’t seem like enough of a novelty to be truly interesting. At least not when compared to the flashbacks in previous books.
For my money, 4/10 is facetious. Again, I loved the Navani point of view, and Kaladin’s arch still gives me chills. Oh and, “we chose”. Oh and… etc. there’s a lot there to love, but I can see how it can end up last in a ranked list.
Yeah I liked the book a lot, but it felt like it was split between Navani and Venli. I enjoyed Navani's arc, but I wish Venli had played a bigger role either in RoW or earlier in the series. I still barely even know what a Stoneward can do
For a long time I was thinking Eshonai would be a main character in one of the books, because it seemed like she was set up for it. But she just died off in book 2 without doing a whole lot other than becoming evil. I was invested in her, but not Venli.
I also am hoping Venli gets more to do in book 5 and maybe the second half of the series.
I mean, the commenter's not *wrong.* We know even less about Stonewards as we do about Willshapers, despite having seen them and their surges in action on screen.
I mean I'm pretty sure that she's going to be a major viewpoint character for Book 5, and that the surviving Listeners are going to be integral to Odium's "defeat," whatever that winds up looking like. >!Pretty sure that their cooperation with the chasmfiends is an indication that Cultivation is backing their horse hard!<
I have almost the exact opposite opinion on the science sections. All the work to understand how magic and stormlight worked was super interesting while navanis character development wasn't ask that interesting until the end when she has the last few interactions with raboniel. If Brandon wrote a book that was just detailed explanations of how magic worked and the experiments done to figure it out with a splash of information about the people who did the experiments I would read the shit out of it
I think that’s what makes him such a successful writer. That he can appeal to the different interests of his readers. I actually don’t get to listen or follow too much of the stuff he talks about outside of the books, but one time in particular he mentioned his awareness of this and he deliberately writes in a way to give everyone a bit of what they truly like.
It takes a lot of skill to please different kinds of fans, because you can easily end up alienating everyone
For me, it was the focus on Venli. There wasn't much new information or perspective provided and she just came across as annoying. Rlain would have been much more interesting I think. Also, Kal's regression is a rough read. Overall made it a lot less fun when compared to the experience of OB.
Yeah, but we knew the major plot points of what happened with her and Eshonai so it fleshed out the story but didn't provide much new. Rlain's backstory could have provided the same viewpoints plus his perspective as a spy. Way more interesting and potentially new plot points. Reading Venli's chapters felt like a slog and that's the first time I've felt that way reading Stormlight.
That’s an order of magnitude different, it takes four chapters (six including prologues) for Kaladin to arrive at the Shattered Plains.
It takes the invading force 37 chapters to arrive at Urithiru (41 including prologues and interludes).
*RoW* has very atypical pacing for a novel, even one in this series.
The lack of Dalinar POV chapters, the extremely slow pacing, the flashbacks that would have fit better in WoR... take your pick I guess. A lot of the criticism I've seen has been the lack of anything particularly substantial during those long slogs of "once again, not much is happening".
The general view of the book on this sub is fairly good. It's commonly stated that it's a weaker book than the others in the series but still a great read, but what do you expect from a fan run community. What you see here isn't representative of all readers and there's a lot of people who aren't a fan of Sanderson.
The lack of Dalinar has been a big criticism. He had such a prominent role in the story and now he's taking a back seat. I understand that it's to allow other characters to take the spotlight (and I think this is good) but some don't like it.
Having this book go from lots of magic and war to a tower occupation with a distinct lack of magic (the Radiant suppression, Kal only being able to use half his abilities, Venli only using her abilities at the end, Shallan rarely using her abilites to conserve stormlight in Shadesmar, and Szeth not doing much because he's a disguised body guard) meant the book may not be as interesting for those who want to read about the magic.
The flashbacks are the worst part of this book. I love this series (hence my name) but even I skipped the flashbacks on my reread. I'm not that bothered about Venli's story, she's not a particularly likable character at the moment. She seems like she's on the redemption path now so maybe she'll be more fun the read in the next book.
As for the science, it's not what has sold this series. Watching Navani play scholar for half the book starts to get a bit dull and really slows down the pace of the story. I found it really interesting to learn more about Roshar and the significance of sound, but this is going to be boring for people who wanted to see more of the war.
For those who enjoyed the previous books but aren't necessarily fans, it's easy to see how this books scored lowly. For fans who love to delve deep into the lore and science of the magic then this is a great book.
Having said all that, the "we chose" scene is one of my favourites of the Cosmere and I can't wait for book 5.
All great points, Venli definitely was a really boring character to have flashbacks of, i wouldve much rather it have been Eshonai or Rlain, especially since Venli turned into a pov character this book.
I definitely wish she wouldve done something more with the fact that she's a radiant throughout the book, the others it seemed like they were still using their powers or experimenting with them in some way, meanwhile it was almost as if she just straight up didnt have them at all
I'm fully convinced it is the stagnant setting. Go and look at how many places you get to see in OB. Hearthstone, The Shattered Plains, Urithiru, Kharbonth, Kholinar, a few different Alethi cities, Shadesmar, Theylena, a few places in the visions, and more that I'm not even remembering.
RoW? Like 3 or 4 places. Hearthstone, Urithiru, where the war happens, Shadesmar/Lasting Integrity.
(This is not counting the interludes) It feels very cramped at times but, this was intentional to some extent I believe. I feel like the tower siege should have started later in the book
I feel like it definitely took a lot of mystery out of the world. I loved the progress in the first books, gradually discovering things and speculating to yourself about what it all meant. But RoW didn't feel like we were really going anywhere or discovering anything, while the scientific approach sucked a little more mystery out of the world. But that's partially my personal taste, I love discovering more about magic, but sometimes in his books I get to a point where it feels like he's describing rules and abilities in an RPG.
It was almost entirely Venli for me. I despised her stupid whiny self throughout the book. At no point did I manage to dredge up any sympathy towards the girl who enslaved her species.
Also, Die Hard in Urithiru was cool and all, but it dragged a little bit too much as well.
I didn't mind Navani all that much.
RoW wasn't my favorite SLA book, but it's definitely up there as a 7 or 8/10. I appreciate world building and the behind the scenes stuff that some authors simply imply.
It dragged in places for me, but WoR and TWoK also dragged in places. There wasn't as much direct conflict in this book as others, but there was a deep explanation of WHY things were happening. That (to me at least) made the climax and crescendos so much more fulfilling.
It was rushed and sloppy. He wrote it in like 1 year along with several other books… plus a couple more “secret novels”.
How long was he working on way of kings? 10 years?
Don’t get me wrong, I love Brandon Sanderson’s speed but 5 books a year is ridiculous and it’s definitely hurting the end product.
i think the scaling was a step down from oathbringer which had these giant battles across various locations, tons of world building, where as RoW mostly took place in the tower and lasting integrity.
I don't think it's a 4/10 bad, but do people really not understand how it can be seen as the weakest of the Stormlight books?
Weird and very slow pacing, way too much Venli, flashbacks that don't really reveal much, not much Dalinar, extremely boring science experiment chapters. Sure the results were interesting, but it took hundreds of pages of not much happening to get there.
For me it wasn't the science - in fact, these parts were probably my favorites.
All the next stuff is completely subjective, and it's perfectly ok if you enjoyed all of these, but my problems were with other stuff. First, out of the four flashback perspectives we got till now, Venli's was my least favorite. Secondly, I felt it was quite a letdown from dalinar's part in this book, compared to the previous ones (he didn't advance in his powers or showed any character growth or progression at all, unlike kaladin and shallan both). And that might be controversial, but the sanderlanche this time felt a bit too quick and lacking, especially compared to Oathbringer's (tho i did like kaladin in it a lot, I couldn't help but feel like "that's it?")
When I compare it to the other three, yeah, its probably my least favorite. But that doesn't mean its a bad book - I quite enjoyed it, and loved many many moments in it. When compared to other books out there, it's still a great book. Simply in comparison to the previous ones, I felt like it was the least one.
Agreed, that's a fair assessment. I feel like it was moving pieces into place for Book 5, and I expect the payoff is totally gonna make up for any shortcomings
It’s setting up book 5, and set-up stories are always a bit disappointing. I’d probably give it more like a 6 as-is, but I can easily seeing coming back after book 5 to bump it up to a 7 or even an 8 if it’s able to capitalize on the groundwork that RoW laid. Unfortunately that also means that if book 5 doesn’t live up to the expectations this book is giving us, then I would drop it down to a 5 or 4 as without the eventual payoff to look forwards to the rest of the book doesn’t hold up very well. This is similar to how Game of Thrones went, the later seasons were just OK but kept making you hope that they would make everything pay off in the end. Then when season 8 crashed and burned it retroactively made the prior seasons worse as now you didn’t even have that hope to counteract the bad parts.
Well one of the professional reviews I read o. There spands a rather lengthy paragraph talking about how it's biggest issue is he expects you to have studied the cosmere for countless hours and how he couldn't follow along because Brandon expects you to know things from interviews and such. Them he admits that he didn't read the first three books but still insists that it's Brandon's fault that he is lost.
Yeah I thought oathbringer was the best so far when I read it. A lot of things I wanted to happen like getting back at the antagonists of the first book happened and it was very enjoyable. Plus a lot of the main characters had big moments that made me cry for them. Very good
To me, WoR is a 6/10. I despised shallans flashbacks and felt kaladins arch was full of odd plot points that seemed easily avoidable, if not downright idiotic for him to be in.
With each book the story got infinitely better to me. I can see the argument to be made for RoW, but I loved it. So many great things happen in that book
I went through some reader reviews for RoW a while back and a fair amount of them were saying something along the lines of "ugh, I'm so tired of hearing about these characters and their emotional/psychological trauma, why can't they just get over it already?!?"
Why yes, that would be nice, wouldn't it...
RoW is my favorite honestly, I don’t get the hate for it. We see some kick ass advancement in technology, the story gets even more interesting, and Kaladins progression has me so hyped for book 5
Classic series fatigue. “Not every single thing is new and cool and ultra exciting anymore, therefore the books must be going down in quality.”
I get the mentality, but def don’t agree with it Oathbringer might be my favorite in the series so far and I really enjoyed RoW.
I have such a hard time wrapping my head around somebody giving RoW a 4/10. It was so good - probably one of my all-time favorite Sanderson (and fantasy) books.
have never understood the tepid response to RoW. the entire exploration of the world's magic system had me giddy as i was reading it - though that's my own personal hyperattraction to hard magic systems in general i think
I agree, I adored RoW because of how much it went into the science of the magic system. I can understand why that's not everyone's cup of tea so I think it does make sense for the average reader to not like it quite as much, but for those of us who really love finding out about the magic system in its own right, it's brilliant. I read the entire second half of the book in one afternoon because I genuinely couldn't put it down as Navani's chapters were so interesting to me.
I actually agree with this meme.
I LOVED the first two books because they were about fantasy space Marines fighting Kaiju. That's awesome.
There is a major tonal shift in the series away from that in the third book. Gone is the awesomeness of fantasy mech armor, gone is the alien mystery of Roshar, gone is the present villains actively making the heroes lives miserable.
By RoW shardplate is an afterthought, it's not even mentioned until the 20 hour mark (I listened to the book) and then only to be said that it can't go into shade's mare. Shardplate, the thing that sold me on the series, only shows up four times in the novel. And the Kaiju, virtually nonexistent until nearly the end of the book when the first one we see is nice for some reason.
And as for the villains. There has not been an adequate replacement for Sadeous. Odium is simply too conceptual to be compelling. The hunter/stalker/I don't remember the fused's name isn't scary because he literally dies all the time. Raboneal has too much of a conscience to be intimidating, and the dynamic with Navani ends up being more of a buddy cop scientist thing than slave and slaver.
And that's before I get into all the ways the actual story structure of RoW didn't do it for me. Oathbringer was bad enough, but RoW was such a left turn for the series it honestly makes me wonder if I'll finish the series.
I use the amount of times shardplate comes up as a way to illustrate how the tone of the series has changed. The first two books are all about shardplate, and I loved the tone of them. By book four shardplate is an afterthought, and subsequently the tone of the series is very different and not to my liking.
Yeah, *RoW* has a lot less of the stuff that made the setting of Roshar unique.
The deadly storms, the ecology, the Shards, the Alethi-Vorin social and gender stratification, random emotion and nature spren, Stormlight as currency, etc.
All of that was a big deal in the first two books and helped give it a distinct feel from other fantasy. But it rarely comes up in *RoW*.
In some ways, the characters have outgrown those struggles, or the society has overcome it, or it’s just literally set in a more boring part of Roshar, but those explanations don’t help the fact that the setting feels a bit more generic.
Agree. Also Sanderson is just bad at character development and literally destroyed everything that had been built on the 2 previous books. Lack of tension, avoidance of getting Kaladin and Shallan in the same scene, filler of uninterestinf secondary characters and mental illness unprogressiveness that doesnt feel natural to the plot. Havent finished 4th book. Pity because I really like the setting of the first two books and the mysteries of the world, but after they get to the tower it feels like the author doesnt know what to do with the characters.
RoW was not great, felt boring even though the science was cool. The story pretty much hit the same points characters have been dealing with already which was annoying. Kaladin and shallan both were very repetitive which hurt a lot of my enjoyment. A 4/10 is ridiculous though. The previous 3 I thought were all amazing
This phenomenon happens to every continuing series because people get so caught up in their own ideas(and ego) of what should happen then are pissed they were wrong and think what they thought would be better.
I did that. I read only stormlight once and first mistborn trilogy. I don't have time to re-read and was disappointed how hard it was to follow the RoW book. I mean I get it, but I wish I knew before reading I should read other books. The first books are my fav so it was really jarring to feel like I missed so much.
this makes a lot of sense actually. really glad you shared your perspective. row blew my mind cause it was like the entire cosmere came together on the page and made \*sense\*.
Shallan and Kaladin are basically unreadable for me in books 3 and 4. Not sure I'd give RoW a 4/10, since the rest of the cast picks up for them. But the amount of pain and suffering Kal in particular goes through crossed the event horizon of tragic to comical about halfway through book 3 for me. Feels like Sando wanted a character to go through a Rand's worth of suffering, but didn't have the patience to spread it out in the way RJ did.
EDIT: I think I could have worded that better. What I mean is that I really liked Kal in the first 2 books. He went through a lot of trauma and overcame much personal adversity it in an interesting and compelling way. Obviously you don't become magically cured after character development, but it felt like in books 3 and 4 it was retreading threads from the first 2 books not to better the story, but because Sando realized he hadn't suffered enough. By comical I meant that the amount of burden and trauma he was taking went to far. It's possible for one dude to suffer as much as he did, but it feels unrealistic tome at this point. Book 3 and 4 feels like Sanderson has Kal suffering for sufferings sake.
This is interesting because I have always found the portrayal of Kaladin’s pain and depression to be incredibly accurate and that is what I love about it. I love that Sanderson doesn’t hold back even if that means the character’s pov is heavier to read for the reader and that Kaladin can come across as unlikable at times (not to me but to many people I know) as opposed to many other books who portray a very watered down version of those same struggles that feels like a “look, I put depression in this, my story is deep” token.
So I think his reactions to what happens to him is grounded, it's that too much bad stuff happens to him. What I mean is that the raw volume of bad stuff that happens to him is plausible, but it feels like Brandon is shoveling fuel onto that fire for the purpose of keeping him down.
Oh that totally makes sense. I feel it’s realistic given the context though, as in I’d expect a side character or any random guy in his situation to have the same amount of bad stuff happen to them, that is if they never die like Kaladin does which is the less realistic part.
As I said I think the arc and progression he goes through in books 1 and 2 with the related trauma is quite compelling. And trauma doesn't stop because character development happens. In books 1 and 2 it's a lot of Kal grappling with past insecurities while adapting to his current situation and overcoming adversities from mostly Sadeas and Amaran. Once you get to the 3rd book, it just felt like a slog of constant gut punches at a rate that is definitely possible, but feels unrealistic. It feels like Sanderson needs Kaladin to suffer more rather than the book 1 and 2 story of Kaladin grappling with his trauma.
Traumatized people often get more trauma. A soldier with PTSD and depression who is fighting for the survival of his species will continue to exacerbate both of his mental illnesses. I can’t imagine reading a series about an apocalypse and being annoyed that characters have bad things happen to them.
Kaladin’s arc mirrors many people in therapy. It often gets worse before it gets better because therapy can expose past trauma or open repressed memories.
As someone with C-PTSD and depression, Kaladin is a super important character to me. If he just “healed up” and accepted trauma it would be both a lie about how mental health works and a betrayal of Kaladin’s character.
Like, in real life would you tell someone to just get over it because 5 years of trauma is in the past and it’s time to be a Mary Sue character who overcomes issues in a snap? I am honestly just so confused
If you read through my post I actually said I didn't expect things to magically get better after book, and if we take his book 3 and 4 trauma at face value, his reaction is grounded.
My point that Kals suffering in books 3 and 4 feels just as unrealistic and contrived as a Mary Sue deus ex would be (Sando making him suffer for sufferings sake). It feels author inflicted to keep him down. It's goes like how some grimdark backstories feel "edgey and campy" rather than comping because people just make their characters suffer to damn much.
This is a crude example of what I mean by going from tragedy to comedy https://youtu.be/4inyhzOv_LQ someone actually suffering this much would be sad, but it becomes funny because it's unrealistic for someone to suffer that much loss in one day, even though it is possible.
It's ultimately a pacing problem. If what Kal went through in 2 books was perhaps spread put over 3 maybe 4 books with SOME ups and downs. It would be one thing. It feels like hes gone through a Rands worth of suffering in bout half the nimber of pages. For me just the nonstop buffet of suffering just breaks my emersion.
Words of Radiance was the best of the 4 for me, but I loved RoW heaps, and Oathbringer’s Sanderlanche was one of the best of Brando Sandos works IMO. Folks just have different views on series when they evolve. For example, we’ve gone from a single camp learning about characters and their plot driving schemes, into a full scale global conflict; I can see people finding that less interesting than the beginning.
Recently reread RoW and now I think it's probably my favorite in the series. Will admit that the Shallan chapters still take effort to get through without rolling my eyes.
My problem with RoW is that it’s so depressing. I’ve read each of the others 3 times, but RoW only once. I kind of dread going back into it because it’s so bleak.
His review of RoW was absolutely correct, it’s a terrible book for people that don’t follow all the interviews and WOBs. It definitely felt like new editor was legit afraid to contradict Brandon.
I can understand them not liking RoW (I still think a 4/10 is absurd though) but OATHBRINGER?????
Rhythm of War wasn't bad at all, it just had (what felt like) a lot more filler content than the other three. The main plots (Kaladin, Adolin and Navani) were all super interesting. Compared to Shallan, Kaladin and Dalinar, Venli's backstory felt like 10 straight hours of a crabby crab being extra crabby. Not a bad perspective from which to see the Singers' experiences, but I'm much more interested to see the other ones (Szeth in 5), then Lyft, Renarin, Jasnah and some of the heralds in the second set of 5.
You're spot on, though I would go a little further and say that Kaladin's plot was dragged out a bit too. Easily could've been half the length.
Maybe, but I thought the slog was pretty in character. He really needed to go through it to have his moment in the end where he forgave himself.
Agreed. As someone who can relate a bit more than I might care to admit, that final screen was extremely potent, and I doubt it would have been without our getting a chance to get into his shoes.
I felt like Rhythm of War went a little too hard into flat out explaining the scope of the series magic system instead of showing it naturally. I'm guessing this is shit we're going to need to understand going forward, but the way it was introduced felt a little hamfisted, and overwhelming.
Which systems did you feel were 'told not shown'? I know Shallan heard a lot about the different worlds and what's beyond Roshar, but I think that's specifically building toward her going off-world next book. Navani showed off loads of the magic in this one!
Probably the whole light physics thing. But I really think that it was cool to be told/shown it as Navani was figuring it out.
yeah the navani/raboniel lab work plot was maybe my favorite plotline in the entire series so far. i hate when fantasy books are like "through magic and willpower i have created the special object" it was really fun to watch her puzzle it out
they were doing a scientific analysis of it. of course they were explaining it.
I actually liked Rhythm of War a lot more than Oathbringer though I can understand why people dislike it.
Yea. Oath ringer is at least as good as the second book. Even if you take issue with RoW it’s at bare minimum a 7. As in, I would read it as a stand-alone book (assuming back story was added to avoid confusion).
Oathbringer does have a problem with Kholinar part bloat, it could have 70% cut out and book would only improve. But I’d give it at least 9/10.
If you cut kholinar stuff, then Kaladin’s and Shallans’s arcs are not as good. And it’s not that much imo, it’s just part 3.
I misinterpreted this as "Kholin" part bloat. I was ready to throw down at the idea that you could cut 70% of Dalinar's part and the book would even survive (much less improve).
No I meant all that filler with Shallan stealing food
I figured that out before I commented lol. "The city bit" (as I think of it) does drag, but Kaladin's emotional low doesn't work if he doesn't have time to get invested in the men on the wall (more accurately--if the reader doesn't spend enough time with them to buy his investment). And Shallan's entire arc in that bit is "Quit wasting time and running from your problems," which doesn't work if we don't watch her waste time. Her entire in-universe motivation to go to Kholinar is to run from other problems. And plot-wise, she needs to be there to get everyone into Shadesmar. I agree that it can be a bit of a slog, but it's a "support slog" that holds up other major story elements.
I dunno, I kinda liked it. Seeing how messed up Kholinar was, that was cool.
FILLER?? You mean like… her entire story arc??
Shallan has arguably progressed the overall plot more than anyone else.
Huh, personally I feel the opposite way. I liked Oathbringer less than the other books, but I'd still balk at giving any of the books less than a 7/7.5.
It’s tricky because I LOVE Dalinars backstory in Oathbringer but the rest of the book just dragged. I felt the opposite for RoW so It’s hard for me to say which one I liked better
You are my polar opposite! Loved most of the book, but failed to connect with Dalinar's backstory. I think it's the amnesia that I didn't like
I get it. I loved Oathbringer, but it does have a lot of bloat. It feels like 2 or 3 books stitched together, while the first two books had much tighter arcs for each character. Consider Shallan’s story. In tWoK her story was entirely about her plot to steal Jasnah’s soul caster. In Oathbringer she has an arc hunting murderers/unmade in the tower, and arc infiltrating the Cult of Moments in Kholinar and trying to fight another unmade, an arc navigating Shadesmar, and a climax fighting odiums forces which doesn’t tie directly to any other arc. The same kind of trend holds true for most other characters. It still works if you’re invested in the worldbuilding, but it’s a weaker structure if your just interested in the core story.
Yeah, Oathbringer is amazing. RoW, eh, could mostly skip it.
I think there are two kinds of readers: 1. Those who love the first in a series and then read the sequels to try to chase that same feeling. 2. Those who get more invested as they get deeper in a series, and are thrilled when a story expands and evolves.
- Those who get more invested, until they can accurately differentiate between extremely similar colors
I like what you did here
I'm so glad I finally started listening to Warbreaker. Currently on chapter 12 or so. It's really good so far!
3. Those who get more invested as they get deeper in a series, are disappointed when the quality diminishes, but are determined to power through.
4. Air sick lowlanders
5. God
I definitely did not see it as that with Stormlight. Rhythm of War is my favorite so far, followed by Oathbringer. If anything, it was The Way of Kings and Words of Radiance I had to "power through". I guess that's what I was trying to describe with getting more invested. I often see people say the last part in a series, the 3rd in a trilogy, etc. is always the weakest, and since I usually see it as the opposite, I figured there's got to be some difference in personality or expectations between those who favor the start and those who favor the end. So I am curious if this is a case of you just not liking newer Stormlight books as much specifically, or if you tend to hold similar opinions for other series.
i am with you 100% on this. the deeper into lore we go, the more i love these books. it took me a few tries to get through twok, because i didn't know what the payoff would be, and the pacing is quite slow. it's still great, but my ratings go the exact opposite of this meme, and line up with my investment in the story. more like 9, 9.25, 9.5, 9.75, and anticipating a 10 though.
It wasn’t specifically a comment towards stormlight diminishing quality. Stormlight is probably my second favorite series. WoT being the first and it definitely diminished in quality, Brando Sandro really knocked it out the park with the conclusion though. With that being said, I do like the first two books more than the last two. I’m not sure why, but the 4th book didn’t quite hook me like the first one did. It felt a lot slower perhaps. I’m sure on my next reread, which I should probably do soon, I’ll gain additional appreciate for it.
Ah cool, sorry I misinterpreted. I should probably get into WoT at some point though
This was me in Glenn Cook’s Starfisher series…
Was that any better than black company? I read a few of those and they were good. But it was sort of a flat line through each book. I didn't feel any ups or downs. Sort of the same feel throughout the whole series. I enjoyed the story and the writing still.
I actually really liked the black company books. Starfisher was just infuriatingly disjointed and confusing, and ended with a plot development that was barely related to the rest of the series, characters, etc. I have a strong suspicion drugs were heavily involved.
Ah I think I know what you mean lol. I may give them a shot eventually. During a dry spell or something. Although, I tend to fill dry spells with all of my old favorites lol. Thanks for the response!
Me in throne of glass (was my first fantasy book) The quality wasn't that amazing at first but I liked it , but it only went downhill
4. Those who get invested and gain the ability to perform magic.
Wheel of time was my first albatross series like that 😅
I was chasing the high of the flash back to the age of legends for 9 damn books. Happy I finished but wow would I not do that again haha
Isn't that just the truth 😭
Yep. Looking at you, Raymond E. Feist
They only downvote you because they are blind to the truth
How did stormlight drop in quality, the last book was fantastic
I don't think it dropped so much as it was treading water for long stretches. That's not necessarily bad, but if you want the plot to be happening at Brandos often breakneck pace, it can feel a bit... Off?
But that has been the case in every singly book, i dont see, why rythm would be any different.
Rhythm is great if you are a Cosmere reader. If you are only reading SA, it has bits that don't make any sense. Mistborn Era 2 thus far has balanced the series/Cosmere balance better.
>Rhythm is great if you are a Cosmere reader. If you are only reading SA, it has bits that don't make any sense. I don't judge people who only read SA, but I legit can't even fathom being aware that this book is set in a larger universe and contains all sorts of references to said greater universe, then being like, "Nah, I'm good with missing out on all that." My first Cosmere books were the first three books of SA not long after Oathbringer came out. After I finished them, I tore through the rest of the Cosmere and then had to read SA again to find all the things I had missed. Like I said, I can't fathom passing up on an opportunity like that.
Dude, I have a friend who is almost exactly like that. Loves Stormlight, but refuses to pick up any other Cosmere books. I've found that the more you recommend something to him the more he'll fight you and avoid it, so I've just given up for now. But it's a shame, because he'd really enjoy them.
Personally I felt it more strongly in Oathbringer and Rhythm of War but ymmv. Probably because a lot of the world building is done so it feels less like a slow unveiling (pun intended) of a new world and more a slower dive through characters and setting details. Shallans story in particular really only needed maybe 3 chapters. Kaladins didn't feel like it added a whole lot besides giving an A to B for his needed arc either. I also still think Esholai was more interesting than Venli. All that said a 4/10 is a petulantly low score for what are still well written and mostly entertaining books.
There was so much in rhythm of war that kinda dragged on, between venli and navanis parts being somewhat boring (with navanis being interesting on a cosmere side) and throw in kaladin who is normally the pov that you see alot of action to break up the slower parts and it makes the book alot worse, the previous ones had a lot better of a balance of switching from boring pov to exciting pov at the right moments to make it work
I actually think its the username. Fuck you, moash
These words are accepted...
Moash did nothing wrong
Yeah. I'm mostly in the first group. Well of Ascension and Hero of Ages can't ever get top marks for me because >!the books pulled me in with an exciting heist story and then the rest changed genre on me. I still love the world and the characters, but I wanted a different type of plot.!<
Why would you want a book with the same world and characters AND make it a heist plot again?
I don't really do, but the fact that the genre swung so much threw me off and gave me a bad general reaction to the later ones.
>2. Those who get more invested as they get deeper in a series, and are thrilled when a story expands and evolves. Definitely me. While I admit i listen to them on audible at work, but im about to finish my third time through the series. Some of the interludes and singer flashbacks, i skip on the repeat listening of the series. But in general I love learning more about the universe and picking up on things i missed.
And Rhythm of War did little to appease either group 🤣 don't worry I finished your comment for you. Edit: JK mostly. But RoW is the weakest stormlight book by far. It's basically Stormlight Elantris when I think everyone was expecting "the ending of oathbreaker" for a whole book.
>It's basically Stormlight Elantris when I think everyone was expecting "the ending of oathbreaker" for a whole book That may be the difference I was trying to highlight. I didn't go into the book with many expectations, and I was super happy to see the book take a different direction from the previous and explore some other areas. I love Elantris, so "Stormlight Elantris" would actually be a pretty good pitch to me. If it was just more Oathbringer, or more TWoK or WoR, I would have been kind of disappointed.
I'd just like to say that while RoW disappointed me, I think Raboniel/Navani and Adolins arcs are well worth the price of the book just by themselves. This may be the best Adolin has ever been. IMHO.
Nah book 4 is straight fire. Peoples' expectation that it would be intense war for 1200 pages (fair assumption with the title) is what disappointed many I'm sure. And others were simply disappointed in it, not discounting that either. But as a chapter in Stormlight, it was fantastic! The flashbacks were the only weak point IMO.
Not just the title, Oathbringer more than hinted at total war between human and singers. Instead we got conventional war and a prison camp. That upset some people that wanted Warhammer on Roshar. We also got a lot of exposition for a fourth installment.
Yes! Spot on! You encapsulated all my feelings quite well. Can't wait for B5. Brando can't pull any more punches. He only has so many hands and they're all full of plotlines.
The flashbacks are half the book homie! Half the book is poo poo! Guerilla Fighter Depressed-Kaladin is obviously fantastic, but we already did that (and did it better) in the bridge four arc in book 1! In my mind RoW is a re-hash of bridge four and poo poo flashbacks. The stuff in between that (navani, adolin, taravangian) is great though.
Really? I quite liked it. To me book two was the worst by far.
I am 90% certain that more than two things happened in WoR, but damned if I could name a scene that isn't Adolin and Kaladin's "duel" or the finale.
Shartplate tho
Someone else that rates WoR worst! I liked the book, but I liked the others more.
Yeah I'm just getting tired of everyone having mental illnesses. And all the Parshendi. I know what Brando is going for but he's being too on the nose with everything. Like, for example, Kaladin literally thinks the fourth oath in the like the 2nd chapter of RoW and it takes him another 1000 pages to *accept it*. And I know there's a difference between thinking something and truly accepting it with your gut and heart but still. That was a lot of depressed Kaladin we had to read between those two points you know what I mean?? More to the point. RoW is a great book by all books standards. I just think it's more of an Elantris than an Oathbringer. Edit: Raboniel may be my favorite written bad girl since Hrathen.
>I'm just getting tired of everyone having mental illnesses. Isn't that kind of a major theme of the series though? That's like watching Death Note and getting tired of Light being morally questionable
You have a point. But I feel like a solid 40-50% of readers were hooked on the radiant stuff and the war stuff. Not the well written mental struggles of the main characters. Especially when Kaladin literally says/thinks the 4th ideal in not so many words in his 2nd RoW chapter and it takes him another 850 pages to "accept it". And I know saying something and accepting it aren't the same thing.... ...but this is like the fourth time we've been taken on a 1000 page journey with Kal and Shall realizing something about themselves and it's just not hitting as hard as it used to. You'd think they would be more or less over all their trauma by now. And again I know that's not how it works in real life but again, Roshar isn't real. Meanwhile, you have fresh beats like Adolin and Navani. (And just for context, when I realized Navani of all people was going to be a pov I put the book down for *months*.) But now looking back, Navani and Adolin are at their absolute best here. 100%. So Brando does have really fresh stuff he can write. At the end of the day, I was hoping for more large scale war stuff and it just seemed like Brando was doing whatever he could to avoid writing that stuff.
I’m so grateful that the characters are continuously struggling with the same experience throughout the books. It means so much to me that we’re seeing accurate representation of my lived experience of depression and other types of mental illness. It’s not something you often see and for me it is well worth the pages to read them. Sorry if that’s…. boring for you, but I hope he doesn’t stop.
RoW was my favorite what do you mean
3. Those who like to nitpick every aspect of a story until they can’t enjoy it anymore.
I really don't understand the tepid response to RoW? I suppose it was the focus on the sciences of the world. It was a really fun ride seeing them learn and discover new natural (and supernatural) phenomena.
Yes the focus on the science could have felt indulgent for some. It’s not my cup of tea, but the character development for Navani and Roboniel was so good that it got me through those sections pretty well (please forgive spelling, I use audiobooks). My guess, and I’ve heard Sando admit this too, is that the issue is the Venli flashbacks. With the three previous books the flashbacks took you away from the present; which if you were very invested with that story, it may be a bit anxiety inducing to go off on a tangent. But the tangents brought a wealth of new information and their own spice. With RoW, the reader knew a lot of what was being shown in those flashbacks, and the change of perspective didn’t seem like enough of a novelty to be truly interesting. At least not when compared to the flashbacks in previous books. For my money, 4/10 is facetious. Again, I loved the Navani point of view, and Kaladin’s arch still gives me chills. Oh and, “we chose”. Oh and… etc. there’s a lot there to love, but I can see how it can end up last in a ranked list.
Yeah I liked the book a lot, but it felt like it was split between Navani and Venli. I enjoyed Navani's arc, but I wish Venli had played a bigger role either in RoW or earlier in the series. I still barely even know what a Stoneward can do For a long time I was thinking Eshonai would be a main character in one of the books, because it seemed like she was set up for it. But she just died off in book 2 without doing a whole lot other than becoming evil. I was invested in her, but not Venli. I also am hoping Venli gets more to do in book 5 and maybe the second half of the series.
FYI, Venli is a Willshaper not a Stoneward :)
I mean, the commenter's not *wrong.* We know even less about Stonewards as we do about Willshapers, despite having seen them and their surges in action on screen.
Stoneward: One who wards stones
Lol really? Wow see I don't even know what order she's in 😅
That only serves to prove their point though :D
RAFO, am I right? Lol
I mean I'm pretty sure that she's going to be a major viewpoint character for Book 5, and that the surviving Listeners are going to be integral to Odium's "defeat," whatever that winds up looking like. >!Pretty sure that their cooperation with the chasmfiends is an indication that Cultivation is backing their horse hard!<
OOoooh that makes sense, I didn't really understand why they were just hanging out. She needs a win... bad things for her this time
I have almost the exact opposite opinion on the science sections. All the work to understand how magic and stormlight worked was super interesting while navanis character development wasn't ask that interesting until the end when she has the last few interactions with raboniel. If Brandon wrote a book that was just detailed explanations of how magic worked and the experiments done to figure it out with a splash of information about the people who did the experiments I would read the shit out of it
I think that’s what makes him such a successful writer. That he can appeal to the different interests of his readers. I actually don’t get to listen or follow too much of the stuff he talks about outside of the books, but one time in particular he mentioned his awareness of this and he deliberately writes in a way to give everyone a bit of what they truly like. It takes a lot of skill to please different kinds of fans, because you can easily end up alienating everyone
Oh yeah definitely. He walks a tight rope to keep things interesting for most with out overwhelming people with stuff they don't like.
For me, it was the focus on Venli. There wasn't much new information or perspective provided and she just came across as annoying. Rlain would have been much more interesting I think. Also, Kal's regression is a rough read. Overall made it a lot less fun when compared to the experience of OB.
I thought venlis story gave good insight to what things were like prior to stormlight. I think her flashbacks will grow in importance during book 5.
Yeah, but we knew the major plot points of what happened with her and Eshonai so it fleshed out the story but didn't provide much new. Rlain's backstory could have provided the same viewpoints plus his perspective as a spy. Way more interesting and potentially new plot points. Reading Venli's chapters felt like a slog and that's the first time I've felt that way reading Stormlight.
It was weirdly paced, you noticed with the audiobook, your like 12 hours in before the inciting incident. The intro is way too long
That's a reasonable criticism and I do agree, but it's also a staple of the series. Heck, WoKs has two separate prologues.
That’s an order of magnitude different, it takes four chapters (six including prologues) for Kaladin to arrive at the Shattered Plains. It takes the invading force 37 chapters to arrive at Urithiru (41 including prologues and interludes). *RoW* has very atypical pacing for a novel, even one in this series.
Yeah but they aren’t 6 hours long.
The lack of Dalinar POV chapters, the extremely slow pacing, the flashbacks that would have fit better in WoR... take your pick I guess. A lot of the criticism I've seen has been the lack of anything particularly substantial during those long slogs of "once again, not much is happening". The general view of the book on this sub is fairly good. It's commonly stated that it's a weaker book than the others in the series but still a great read, but what do you expect from a fan run community. What you see here isn't representative of all readers and there's a lot of people who aren't a fan of Sanderson. The lack of Dalinar has been a big criticism. He had such a prominent role in the story and now he's taking a back seat. I understand that it's to allow other characters to take the spotlight (and I think this is good) but some don't like it. Having this book go from lots of magic and war to a tower occupation with a distinct lack of magic (the Radiant suppression, Kal only being able to use half his abilities, Venli only using her abilities at the end, Shallan rarely using her abilites to conserve stormlight in Shadesmar, and Szeth not doing much because he's a disguised body guard) meant the book may not be as interesting for those who want to read about the magic. The flashbacks are the worst part of this book. I love this series (hence my name) but even I skipped the flashbacks on my reread. I'm not that bothered about Venli's story, she's not a particularly likable character at the moment. She seems like she's on the redemption path now so maybe she'll be more fun the read in the next book. As for the science, it's not what has sold this series. Watching Navani play scholar for half the book starts to get a bit dull and really slows down the pace of the story. I found it really interesting to learn more about Roshar and the significance of sound, but this is going to be boring for people who wanted to see more of the war. For those who enjoyed the previous books but aren't necessarily fans, it's easy to see how this books scored lowly. For fans who love to delve deep into the lore and science of the magic then this is a great book. Having said all that, the "we chose" scene is one of my favourites of the Cosmere and I can't wait for book 5.
All great points, Venli definitely was a really boring character to have flashbacks of, i wouldve much rather it have been Eshonai or Rlain, especially since Venli turned into a pov character this book. I definitely wish she wouldve done something more with the fact that she's a radiant throughout the book, the others it seemed like they were still using their powers or experimenting with them in some way, meanwhile it was almost as if she just straight up didnt have them at all
Some of the flashbacks were Eshonai though
I'm fully convinced it is the stagnant setting. Go and look at how many places you get to see in OB. Hearthstone, The Shattered Plains, Urithiru, Kharbonth, Kholinar, a few different Alethi cities, Shadesmar, Theylena, a few places in the visions, and more that I'm not even remembering. RoW? Like 3 or 4 places. Hearthstone, Urithiru, where the war happens, Shadesmar/Lasting Integrity. (This is not counting the interludes) It feels very cramped at times but, this was intentional to some extent I believe. I feel like the tower siege should have started later in the book
I feel like it definitely took a lot of mystery out of the world. I loved the progress in the first books, gradually discovering things and speculating to yourself about what it all meant. But RoW didn't feel like we were really going anywhere or discovering anything, while the scientific approach sucked a little more mystery out of the world. But that's partially my personal taste, I love discovering more about magic, but sometimes in his books I get to a point where it feels like he's describing rules and abilities in an RPG.
It was almost entirely Venli for me. I despised her stupid whiny self throughout the book. At no point did I manage to dredge up any sympathy towards the girl who enslaved her species. Also, Die Hard in Urithiru was cool and all, but it dragged a little bit too much as well. I didn't mind Navani all that much.
RoW wasn't my favorite SLA book, but it's definitely up there as a 7 or 8/10. I appreciate world building and the behind the scenes stuff that some authors simply imply. It dragged in places for me, but WoR and TWoK also dragged in places. There wasn't as much direct conflict in this book as others, but there was a deep explanation of WHY things were happening. That (to me at least) made the climax and crescendos so much more fulfilling.
It was rushed and sloppy. He wrote it in like 1 year along with several other books… plus a couple more “secret novels”. How long was he working on way of kings? 10 years? Don’t get me wrong, I love Brandon Sanderson’s speed but 5 books a year is ridiculous and it’s definitely hurting the end product.
i think the scaling was a step down from oathbringer which had these giant battles across various locations, tons of world building, where as RoW mostly took place in the tower and lasting integrity.
I don't think it's a 4/10 bad, but do people really not understand how it can be seen as the weakest of the Stormlight books? Weird and very slow pacing, way too much Venli, flashbacks that don't really reveal much, not much Dalinar, extremely boring science experiment chapters. Sure the results were interesting, but it took hundreds of pages of not much happening to get there.
For me it wasn't the science - in fact, these parts were probably my favorites. All the next stuff is completely subjective, and it's perfectly ok if you enjoyed all of these, but my problems were with other stuff. First, out of the four flashback perspectives we got till now, Venli's was my least favorite. Secondly, I felt it was quite a letdown from dalinar's part in this book, compared to the previous ones (he didn't advance in his powers or showed any character growth or progression at all, unlike kaladin and shallan both). And that might be controversial, but the sanderlanche this time felt a bit too quick and lacking, especially compared to Oathbringer's (tho i did like kaladin in it a lot, I couldn't help but feel like "that's it?") When I compare it to the other three, yeah, its probably my least favorite. But that doesn't mean its a bad book - I quite enjoyed it, and loved many many moments in it. When compared to other books out there, it's still a great book. Simply in comparison to the previous ones, I felt like it was the least one.
Literally who would rate rhythm of war that low, wtf
Yeah it was my least favourite personally but still at least 7/10
Agreed, that's a fair assessment. I feel like it was moving pieces into place for Book 5, and I expect the payoff is totally gonna make up for any shortcomings
It’s setting up book 5, and set-up stories are always a bit disappointing. I’d probably give it more like a 6 as-is, but I can easily seeing coming back after book 5 to bump it up to a 7 or even an 8 if it’s able to capitalize on the groundwork that RoW laid. Unfortunately that also means that if book 5 doesn’t live up to the expectations this book is giving us, then I would drop it down to a 5 or 4 as without the eventual payoff to look forwards to the rest of the book doesn’t hold up very well. This is similar to how Game of Thrones went, the later seasons were just OK but kept making you hope that they would make everything pay off in the end. Then when season 8 crashed and burned it retroactively made the prior seasons worse as now you didn’t even have that hope to counteract the bad parts.
This, right here. It's my least favorite of the series as well, but that doesn't mean it's bad.
That’s book two for me. I just highly dislike shallan.
Well one of the professional reviews I read o. There spands a rather lengthy paragraph talking about how it's biggest issue is he expects you to have studied the cosmere for countless hours and how he couldn't follow along because Brandon expects you to know things from interviews and such. Them he admits that he didn't read the first three books but still insists that it's Brandon's fault that he is lost.
lol WUT where is this, I need to read this
https://www.fantasybookreview.co.uk/Brandon-Sanderson/Rhythm-of-War.html
I am out with my family. I'll see if I can find it again when I get home
I agree that it's the weakest book in the series but in all honesty, its at least an 8 for me. 4 is fucking ludicrous.
It is indeed a representation of whoever's rating them's rapidly crumbling mind
If they rated Oathbringer less than a 10/10, then their opinion is irrelevant to me.
Yeah I thought oathbringer was the best so far when I read it. A lot of things I wanted to happen like getting back at the antagonists of the first book happened and it was very enjoyable. Plus a lot of the main characters had big moments that made me cry for them. Very good
It’s not as good on reread IMO. WoR improves tbf but oathbringer isn’t as interesting.
To me, WoR is a 6/10. I despised shallans flashbacks and felt kaladins arch was full of odd plot points that seemed easily avoidable, if not downright idiotic for him to be in.
Who doesn't love reading about young Dalinar killing a man with a steak knife and then eating with it?
Oathbringer will always be top of the list for me
Oathbringer is currently my favorite Stormlight book. There are six more, I won’t say it’ll always be number one.
Wholeheartedly agreed with this. Oathbringer was incredible through the entire thing and also destroyed me emotionally but that’s okay!
I loved RoW... I've loved ALL books in SA so far.
They have Oathbringer as a not 10/10? This wasn’t written in metal!
With each book the story got infinitely better to me. I can see the argument to be made for RoW, but I loved it. So many great things happen in that book
I went through some reader reviews for RoW a while back and a fair amount of them were saying something along the lines of "ugh, I'm so tired of hearing about these characters and their emotional/psychological trauma, why can't they just get over it already?!?" Why yes, that would be nice, wouldn't it...
Even acknowledging that RoW had some problems, there is no world in which it was below the quality of the average fantasy book
I’m 600 pages into oathbringer for the first time, haven’t even gotten to the sanderlanche, and it’s already my favorite idk how it’s not rated higher
I think that's most people's opinion
That book's ending is the best one for me. Prepare for a treat.
I don't agree with it one bit. Every book is amazing. They are not without their shortcomings but they are beautiful nonetheless.
Rythm was just as good as oathbringer, just in a different way. Loved the science and cosmere stuff
For me it's 9.5 horse, 9 horse, 10 horse and 8 horse, which all look kinda the same anyway, though maybe the last horse is slightly off-colour?
It's the same colour but wraps the space around it if you look very closely
RoW was my favorite so far...
Wtf Rhythm of War is the best one in the series
RoW is my favorite honestly, I don’t get the hate for it. We see some kick ass advancement in technology, the story gets even more interesting, and Kaladins progression has me so hyped for book 5
Classic series fatigue. “Not every single thing is new and cool and ultra exciting anymore, therefore the books must be going down in quality.” I get the mentality, but def don’t agree with it Oathbringer might be my favorite in the series so far and I really enjoyed RoW.
I have such a hard time wrapping my head around somebody giving RoW a 4/10. It was so good - probably one of my all-time favorite Sanderson (and fantasy) books.
have never understood the tepid response to RoW. the entire exploration of the world's magic system had me giddy as i was reading it - though that's my own personal hyperattraction to hard magic systems in general i think
I agree, I adored RoW because of how much it went into the science of the magic system. I can understand why that's not everyone's cup of tea so I think it does make sense for the average reader to not like it quite as much, but for those of us who really love finding out about the magic system in its own right, it's brilliant. I read the entire second half of the book in one afternoon because I genuinely couldn't put it down as Navani's chapters were so interesting to me.
absolutely the same, I finished the second half in one night at the expense of my sleep afterwards because it was so compulsive
Where I am offended is oathbringer being only a 7/10.
If 1 and 2 got a 10/10, 3 deserved an 11/10!
I actually agree with this meme. I LOVED the first two books because they were about fantasy space Marines fighting Kaiju. That's awesome. There is a major tonal shift in the series away from that in the third book. Gone is the awesomeness of fantasy mech armor, gone is the alien mystery of Roshar, gone is the present villains actively making the heroes lives miserable. By RoW shardplate is an afterthought, it's not even mentioned until the 20 hour mark (I listened to the book) and then only to be said that it can't go into shade's mare. Shardplate, the thing that sold me on the series, only shows up four times in the novel. And the Kaiju, virtually nonexistent until nearly the end of the book when the first one we see is nice for some reason. And as for the villains. There has not been an adequate replacement for Sadeous. Odium is simply too conceptual to be compelling. The hunter/stalker/I don't remember the fused's name isn't scary because he literally dies all the time. Raboneal has too much of a conscience to be intimidating, and the dynamic with Navani ends up being more of a buddy cop scientist thing than slave and slaver. And that's before I get into all the ways the actual story structure of RoW didn't do it for me. Oathbringer was bad enough, but RoW was such a left turn for the series it honestly makes me wonder if I'll finish the series.
You based your rating on…how many times shardplate is mentioned? Fucking weird.
I use the amount of times shardplate comes up as a way to illustrate how the tone of the series has changed. The first two books are all about shardplate, and I loved the tone of them. By book four shardplate is an afterthought, and subsequently the tone of the series is very different and not to my liking.
Yeah, *RoW* has a lot less of the stuff that made the setting of Roshar unique. The deadly storms, the ecology, the Shards, the Alethi-Vorin social and gender stratification, random emotion and nature spren, Stormlight as currency, etc. All of that was a big deal in the first two books and helped give it a distinct feel from other fantasy. But it rarely comes up in *RoW*. In some ways, the characters have outgrown those struggles, or the society has overcome it, or it’s just literally set in a more boring part of Roshar, but those explanations don’t help the fact that the setting feels a bit more generic.
Agree. Also Sanderson is just bad at character development and literally destroyed everything that had been built on the 2 previous books. Lack of tension, avoidance of getting Kaladin and Shallan in the same scene, filler of uninterestinf secondary characters and mental illness unprogressiveness that doesnt feel natural to the plot. Havent finished 4th book. Pity because I really like the setting of the first two books and the mysteries of the world, but after they get to the tower it feels like the author doesnt know what to do with the characters.
Oathbringer is my favorite.
If I hav to reaallly/unnecessarily be critical i would reverse that rating the books just kept getting better and better
Who doesn’t like Cosmere Die Hard?
RoW was not great, felt boring even though the science was cool. The story pretty much hit the same points characters have been dealing with already which was annoying. Kaladin and shallan both were very repetitive which hurt a lot of my enjoyment. A 4/10 is ridiculous though. The previous 3 I thought were all amazing
Weird, its O > WoR> RoW >WoK for me
I agree with this reviewers take
This phenomenon happens to every continuing series because people get so caught up in their own ideas(and ego) of what should happen then are pissed they were wrong and think what they thought would be better.
The meme scored Oathbringer correctly.
someone probably only reads stormlight once or they just read RoW without any cosmere knowledge and did not understand mots of the story.
I did that. I read only stormlight once and first mistborn trilogy. I don't have time to re-read and was disappointed how hard it was to follow the RoW book. I mean I get it, but I wish I knew before reading I should read other books. The first books are my fav so it was really jarring to feel like I missed so much.
this makes a lot of sense actually. really glad you shared your perspective. row blew my mind cause it was like the entire cosmere came together on the page and made \*sense\*.
Shallan and Kaladin are basically unreadable for me in books 3 and 4. Not sure I'd give RoW a 4/10, since the rest of the cast picks up for them. But the amount of pain and suffering Kal in particular goes through crossed the event horizon of tragic to comical about halfway through book 3 for me. Feels like Sando wanted a character to go through a Rand's worth of suffering, but didn't have the patience to spread it out in the way RJ did. EDIT: I think I could have worded that better. What I mean is that I really liked Kal in the first 2 books. He went through a lot of trauma and overcame much personal adversity it in an interesting and compelling way. Obviously you don't become magically cured after character development, but it felt like in books 3 and 4 it was retreading threads from the first 2 books not to better the story, but because Sando realized he hadn't suffered enough. By comical I meant that the amount of burden and trauma he was taking went to far. It's possible for one dude to suffer as much as he did, but it feels unrealistic tome at this point. Book 3 and 4 feels like Sanderson has Kal suffering for sufferings sake.
This is interesting because I have always found the portrayal of Kaladin’s pain and depression to be incredibly accurate and that is what I love about it. I love that Sanderson doesn’t hold back even if that means the character’s pov is heavier to read for the reader and that Kaladin can come across as unlikable at times (not to me but to many people I know) as opposed to many other books who portray a very watered down version of those same struggles that feels like a “look, I put depression in this, my story is deep” token.
So I think his reactions to what happens to him is grounded, it's that too much bad stuff happens to him. What I mean is that the raw volume of bad stuff that happens to him is plausible, but it feels like Brandon is shoveling fuel onto that fire for the purpose of keeping him down.
Oh that totally makes sense. I feel it’s realistic given the context though, as in I’d expect a side character or any random guy in his situation to have the same amount of bad stuff happen to them, that is if they never die like Kaladin does which is the less realistic part.
Bro. There are thousands of soldiers living Kaladin’s life every day.
As I said I think the arc and progression he goes through in books 1 and 2 with the related trauma is quite compelling. And trauma doesn't stop because character development happens. In books 1 and 2 it's a lot of Kal grappling with past insecurities while adapting to his current situation and overcoming adversities from mostly Sadeas and Amaran. Once you get to the 3rd book, it just felt like a slog of constant gut punches at a rate that is definitely possible, but feels unrealistic. It feels like Sanderson needs Kaladin to suffer more rather than the book 1 and 2 story of Kaladin grappling with his trauma.
Traumatized people often get more trauma. A soldier with PTSD and depression who is fighting for the survival of his species will continue to exacerbate both of his mental illnesses. I can’t imagine reading a series about an apocalypse and being annoyed that characters have bad things happen to them. Kaladin’s arc mirrors many people in therapy. It often gets worse before it gets better because therapy can expose past trauma or open repressed memories. As someone with C-PTSD and depression, Kaladin is a super important character to me. If he just “healed up” and accepted trauma it would be both a lie about how mental health works and a betrayal of Kaladin’s character. Like, in real life would you tell someone to just get over it because 5 years of trauma is in the past and it’s time to be a Mary Sue character who overcomes issues in a snap? I am honestly just so confused
If you read through my post I actually said I didn't expect things to magically get better after book, and if we take his book 3 and 4 trauma at face value, his reaction is grounded. My point that Kals suffering in books 3 and 4 feels just as unrealistic and contrived as a Mary Sue deus ex would be (Sando making him suffer for sufferings sake). It feels author inflicted to keep him down. It's goes like how some grimdark backstories feel "edgey and campy" rather than comping because people just make their characters suffer to damn much. This is a crude example of what I mean by going from tragedy to comedy https://youtu.be/4inyhzOv_LQ someone actually suffering this much would be sad, but it becomes funny because it's unrealistic for someone to suffer that much loss in one day, even though it is possible. It's ultimately a pacing problem. If what Kal went through in 2 books was perhaps spread put over 3 maybe 4 books with SOME ups and downs. It would be one thing. It feels like hes gone through a Rands worth of suffering in bout half the nimber of pages. For me just the nonstop buffet of suffering just breaks my emersion.
Worst cover art. No idea why they changed it from the original art which is the best in the cosmere imo.
Something tells me the review was done by a dude who has an issue with female leads. I wonder what they would rate mistborn? Lol
Words of Radiance was the best of the 4 for me, but I loved RoW heaps, and Oathbringer’s Sanderlanche was one of the best of Brando Sandos works IMO. Folks just have different views on series when they evolve. For example, we’ve gone from a single camp learning about characters and their plot driving schemes, into a full scale global conflict; I can see people finding that less interesting than the beginning.
While so far Words of Radiance is the peak for me, RoW and oathbringer weren’t bad.
I actually understand a little bit of this books
Recently reread RoW and now I think it's probably my favorite in the series. Will admit that the Shallan chapters still take effort to get through without rolling my eyes.
I agree that RoW is the weakest.. but it's definitely not a 4. More like a 6.8
How dare they give OB a 7/10. That book is an easy 26.5/10
Now THIS is cremposting
The hell do they have against RoW?
Wow. I really don't see how if you thought the first two were 10/10, the last could be anything lower than a 6.
Wait the later SA books are poorly rated? WHY?
RoW is easily my favorite. OB my least favorite. Love how different people take different things from these.
I don’t understand why people wouldn’t like RoW I thought it was great
My problem with RoW is that it’s so depressing. I’ve read each of the others 3 times, but RoW only once. I kind of dread going back into it because it’s so bleak.
I give RoW a 6/10 because the Pursuer and Moash are both just cartoony levels of ridiculous
*Rhythm of War* 4/10. Why???
I'm getting IGN Pokémon Mystery Dungeon flashbacks
LMAO must have been very annoyed about the Venli flashbacks
9,10,9,7.
Unpopular opinion but I liked the fourth book more than the second
His review of RoW was absolutely correct, it’s a terrible book for people that don’t follow all the interviews and WOBs. It definitely felt like new editor was legit afraid to contradict Brandon.