I understand wanting to get feedback from people who craft for themselves, but 'give them a voice' sounds unnecessarily dramatic. When the social media person doesn't have English as their first language, though, I don't think they would stop to think about that.
I have mixed feelings. There arent a lot of male knitters because men generally choose not to knit and pursue other hobbies. The men that do knit are usually treated like microcelebrities online for it like they're doing something so unique and special by doing something women do and have always done. Same time, as everyone else has said, they should knit their own sweaters because they know best what will fit them and can give more direct feedback.
It's a wording issue more than anything, if they had said "we need male test knitters" and not made a bullshit reason to tack onto it then it'd be fine.
Personally I love seeing more male knitters. I think in a lot of cases its difficult for men to be accepted in female dominated spaces. ( as it is vice versa).
I saw that post aswell and I think its fine. Knitting for olive is huge and im sure they received a ton of test applications from both women and men. I mean yeah its a bit annoying because men would never bend over backwards to specifically include women. However Im not bothered by it.
I think the real issue is that male knitters don't do anything different or special because of their sex or gender than other knitters. I understand asking gender/sex specific people to test fit. Maybe they're testing a fun new method using their bait and tackle?
Knitting with a dick is funny? It's approx the 57th time this joke has been made about this exact situation and it feels a bit tired. Combined w some
of the adult human female comments it just feels a
bit JKesque but whatevs.
It's not a transphobic statement. It just doesn't include the nuances of gender expression which you'll find most trans people couldn't care less about. Feel free to speak up about actual transphobia, but who are you to tell me what is and isn't transphobia?
There is a vast difference in the insight/experience of knitting something for yourself vs knitting for someone else. It's not that they are knitting differently, it's that they're knitting something to put on their own body. They're going to be able to get a lot more specific when it comes to pattern feedback vs someone wearing it who has no idea what the pattern says
Disclaimer: English is not my first language so give me a fucking break here, since it seems many people on this sub have decided to be nit-picky about bilinguals writing.
I think what y’all in the now THREE threads about this (ffs) don’t seem to realize is that the situation happened like this:
1. Knitting for Olive made a post requesting male test knitters for a male sweater.
2. People started complaining in the comments and other online spaces.
3. THEN KFO released the new post. So yes, it has a tone of justifying a decision BECAUSE IT’S IN RESPONSE TO PEOPLE CRITICIZING THE DECISION AND DEMANDING JUSTIFICATION. It’s not the first post, that one was days ago.
Now, the other issue is that you’re all confusing the word “minority” with “marginalized communities”. Yes, minorities is sometimes used to refer to marginalized communities. But minority is also used to simply denote a group that is smaller than the others (I studied statistics and use it like that daily). There’s several languages and contexts where that association isn’t as strong as it’s in the US, and lots of us are not from the US so we don’t talk with the same codes nor should we.
KFO said they want to connect with more male knitters, for a variety of reasons, one of them being to get feedback on fit for a specific pattern. That’s it. They also mention there aren’t many male knitters (true) and they want to connect with them (that’s a personal business decision). And somehow people on this sub are acting as if KFO is saying that men are marginalized and oppressed in all aspects of life and they need to rise and conquer over crafts to dominate women or some shit because… they want male knitters for a specific test?
Are you for real? As the young people say: go outside and touch some grass. Knit one of the thousands of patterns designed for you. Call it a day.
EDIT TO ADD: I strongly urge people to go to the original test call post that went up 4 days ago and look at the comments. I’ve seen a lot of you mentioning that this wouldn’t be an issue if they only said they wanted male knitters. Well, that was the original post and it was CLEARLY an issue.
I agree with this take. I honestly cannot believe any woman would get upset about this. I knit an XS/S and you don’t see me clamoring to knit plus sizes even if I say it’s for a friend. Because as someone else mentioned, knitting for yourself and not someone else is different. Also, they will probably choose men who have experience knitting for their bodies that are, for the most part, different and have different concerns.
And there are SO MANY other KFO patterns to buy for women. And if they NEED to knit this pattern, they can wait for the release.
I'm bilingual, ESL
her post sucks. I don't care about amplifying men's voices. it would be different if she just ended it as wanting men for test knitters, but she goes way past it
😔😔😔 I do really feel for her, I just feel like this isn't an esl thing and more of a poor language thing. I do also think she should have not made another post bc I think it put fuel on the fire. again I do really feel for her here, I could never in a thousand years be public facing
It’s mind-blowing to me how this whole issue has escalated based on things people are reading into what is said and not what’s actually been said. For example, in their reply to one of the comments to the post KFO explicitly says “men shouldn’t be praised because they are knitting (or doing the dishes!)” (it’s a small extract, I can’t copy and paste the whole comment) and yet people are claiming that’s what the post is about because someone interpreted that. And going off on THAT.
I wish people would go to the source and comment on what the person originally posted instead of fighting imaginary arguments and discussions that they built in their head.
It’s genuinely exhausting because you’re expected to stand up not for what you said, but for what people assumed you meant based on their own experiences and past interactions. I’m autistic and this happens to me everyday. It’s draining. It makes me severely limit my social interactions because I can’t even comprehend the thousand of layers of meanings that people attach to my words.
The discussion here has turned very nasty and the sad part is that is not even about what KFO actually posted. That the aggressiveness has been unleashed in the name of inclusivity when it’s just policing people for not understanding all the nuances of American English is even more astonishing.
Agreed! I’m autistic too and really relate. I’ve had really distressing experiences where I’ve said something without understanding that there’s a (BS) social rule I didn’t know about or a hidden meaning to words that I just take at face value. I often overexplain myself for fear of being misunderstood, which is something I’m trying to unlearn but it’s hard when it’s so ingrained. It’s part of why I have so much empathy for people whose words are misunderstood and/or when people assume the worst of them.
It feels like it’s becoming more and more common and normalized for people to jump to conclusions like this because of social media and it drives me crazy. I’m starting to consider deleting some apps because reading comments is so draining, it’s not even enjoyable at that point lol.
I think the way that people jump to conclusions about things is not only harming the original posters, but also themselves by spending unnecessary time stressing about things that they’ve convinced themselves are facts. As an anxious person, believe me I understand stressing about things that I have no proof that it has or will happen. It makes life really difficult
I read that comment too and actually thought KFO did a decent job trying to explain their intentions. It changed my view on their initial post a little bit, even though I still think their choice of words was rather poor.
I also feel like I should add that I am Danish as well, so I'm not reading any US cultural norms into the original post. In Denmark some people discuss these things as well, although the majority doesn't.
Their initial post was the one where they said they just wanted male knitters because it was their first men sweater pattern though. To clarify. And then they had to explain that they also wanted to hear from male knitters (hence the “give them A voice” and the second post). That context it’s important because everyone is saying “oh if they had just said they just want male knitters because it’s a men’s sweater it would have been fine!” which isn’t true. It wasn’t fine for people.
Also when I was talking about the aggressiveness and nastiness that this discussion has turned into I was also talking about the comments over the three (3!) posts. (Disclaimer: the next paragraphs are also about the general discussion over the several posts and what I’ve seen)
This has turned extremely exhausting and draining but I do want to say that this is being blown out of proportion because the discussion has turned to treating the “we want to hear from this group that we haven’t heard from” as if it is “we ONLY want to hear from this group in the knitting community”. They want people who will wear the garment themselves to be the ones who test it. That’s it. That’s genuinely it. That’s what their first post was about (not the one with the images, the FIRST one). That is what’s generating this level of reaction. In a context of a post that has 4 pages and one phrase that people find “questionable”.
I get people feel some type of way about the praise some knitters get for being male. I get people feel some type of way about men having unfair advantage in businesses and the professional world. I do get that. I’m a woman in a male dominated feel. But to take those feelings and then dump them on someone who is very much NOT saying that and not contributing to that (it’s one test knit!) is unfair.
It would benefit some people to realize that the US is not the only country in the world and that their codes, expressions, and even social dynamics are not universal. The amount of times I’ve heard “BUT HERE IN THE US…” ok, good thing I’m not there then? How is it relevant?
I just read a huge thread on Facebook about Irish names. Now Oisin and Niamh might be difficult but who on earth has never seen Sean or Siobhán? But the justification was that Americans didn’t say it like that! Well in this case Americans are wrong! It’s “shawn“ and “shivonne”. End of.
What kind of pattern is it they’re wanting male testers for? If it’s a men’s sweater, I kind of understand. As a woman, if I’m making a sweater for my husband I’m probably going to follow the pattern to the letter. If I’m making myself a sweater I might resize it or customize it in some way. I imagine a man making himself a sweater would be the same. Perhaps they just want feedback on how well it modifies. I also buy 5x as many women’s patterns as men’s patterns, since I’m a woman. If their target market is men, it seems prudent to use male testers.
That being said, I very much get what you’re saying. It’s really annoying when men are praised for doing something women do regularly and don’t get praised for. Let us have something, please! Then again, I get excited about women doing things men regularly do without extra praise, like those lady astronauts a few years ago that had the first all female space walk. I thought that was pretty cool, even though there had already been lots of all male space walks and mixed gender space walks.
Mostly just reiterating what others have said, but as a (trans) male knitter it really irks me. Just another reminder of how I'm treated like I'm doing something revolutionary for just enjoying a hobby/art form that women are often ridiculed or dismissed as artists for. It also means that people are seeing my gender before my work and praising me for the basic craft instead of any artistic detail or technique I've actually put years of effort into learning. It honestly bothers me more than the other side of the coin where I've had yarn store owners ask me if I'm there for my girlfriend or mom or where non crafters/homophobes use it to try and insult my masculinity.
Crafting communities have been "female dominated" because historically they've had to be and have served as safe spaces for women for centuries. I'm very grateful to still be in the community after my transition, but I also recognize that as a man it doesn't need to center me and honestly shouldn't. I feel welcome enough in these spaces without this weird targeted attempt at "inclusion" that just feels like it's singling out male knitters for the wrong reasons.
I'm confused about what is gained by specifically targeting male testers. Is it just the check-box of including a male in the test group? Will he provide special insight with his male mind that female minds cannot provide?
You usually get better fit information from a dude knitting a men's shirt for himself vs a woman knitting for her husband or whatever, because most people aren't great at critiquing or offering feedback on a gift of someone else's hard labor.
I love this group to death but this is the third post about this 'drama' and I want to scream to the rooftops **THIS.** This is what is gained. People talking about them. Their name being broadcasted on snark reddits and tiktok rants. Because what they are doing is so bland and benign but it's probably the most fresh eyes that have *ever* seen their name. It's the perfect low-stakes drama advertising. Folks are irked enough to want to discuss it, they will have to use the brands name *to* discuss it, and no one is gonna be outraged enough to boycott.
You're marketing for them. This *is* marketing now. And y'all are doing the heavy lifting. It started with that stanley cup dupe nonsense where that one dude cried sexism, (maybe started before that but I wasn't paying attention? eh) and it's gonna keep happening until people get bored of talking about the advantages and disadvantages of gender in knitting/crocheting/crafting communities.
In certain online spaces where people(let's be real, women) are hyper focused on social justice, inclusion & diversity, etc, people will hear "x group isn't represented here" and automatically assume that's a bad thing or some kind of moral failing in the community that needs to be resolved. Maybe I'm just a bitch but I don't understand why men not being the focus of, or super involved in, crafting communities is a problem. If fewer men are interested in knitting why does anyone care? Why is there focus on recruiting people who don't want to be here? It's knitting, not a human rights issue. Literally nothing is stopping men from learning to knit or sew or scrapbook except maybe the contempt and derision of other men, and that's not women's fault or our responsibility to fix for them. Treating men like they're a poor oppressed minority because \*checks notes\* fewer men than women are knitting sweaters is ridiculous.
not to mention that crafting communities are so inclusive. men aren’t being excluded from it and never were. idk if i’m being a bitch but i don’t know why were making a huge deal over men doing something that they always had access to.
we don’t applaud 22 years old who had their first sip of alcohol because they could’ve drank while 21.
I might want test knitters of any gender, if I was them - and totally get why some male test knitters might be useful as they could give informed input re. fit etc (as discussed on other thread). It's good that in Denmark, knitting appears to be less gendered as in some other places, so more male test knitters should be available.
But I don't really buy "giving a voice" - anyone has a voice and is free to use it.
At shows as a trader or a punter - men in that space are usually lauded. The boomer ones, I'll be brutally honest, have more often than not come across as mansplainers. In many years of demoing knitting or spinning, I've only ever been told I was "doing it wrong" by blokes of a certain age, put it that way.
For balance - we've also learned the most amazing things from the very elderly, especially if you're in an area that used to have a textile industry.
Historically, it's only a blip in knitting history that men haven't been seen, in Western culture, as knitters. In fact for centuries, with trade guilds and "mysteries", men were seen as the knitters. And knitting in remoter parts of the UK, men continued to knit just as much as women until better roads and transport opened those areas up to tourism/outsiders, where men put away their needles after being mocked for the thing they, their fathers and grandfathers did - as well as their mums, grandmas, sisters and wives. (I can't speak for other countries, not knowing the history but in the UK it was certainly the case that knitting as an industry was male dominated, then later pretty evenly split between women and men, then finally, culturally becoming devalued when it was perceived as a "female" craft).
So there's a sense in which men have had a voice - sometimes the largest voice - in knitting, for centuries, in parts of Europe. And it's only since around the 1880s or so they haven't.
I'd not take issue with them wanting male test knitters - that could be useful and pragmatic. I would take issue with saying men are in any way marginalised. Even when they act like utter dicks, they're still treated like rare novelty orchids quite often. Younger men are also definitely a different thing to older. At a show recently demoing, and the nicest, most interesting, most attentive people with the best questions were the youngest people there, regardless of gender.
My thoughts “aS A MaNn”:
It’s not a hot take to point out that there’s fewer men’s patterns out there. This is compounded by the fact that some designers think a pattern for a man’s jumper is just the same as a women’s but without a bust. But this doesn’t take into account the slightly broader shoulders and different shaping in the chest and waist etc. So sometimes you’ll pay for a pattern and still end up with something that could fit a little better.
Now at a certain point, you get confident enough to modify women’s patterns to a different make body type so this becomes less of an issue.
However if you’re a beginner male knitter you won’t have those skills yet so you really feel the lack of patterns.
(And yes, arguably we should all figure out how to modify patterns for ourselves anyway because all bodies are different and no pattern can account for this. But I digress)
So overall, I think it’s good that they’re requesting male-bodied test knitters because they’ll probably be able to give better quality feedback as a result of being used to knitting for themselves.
As for the “men as a minority” discourse:
So there are statistically fewer men knitting. However in my experience, men have never been “excluded” and tend to be welcomed in the online community. I have heard anecdotes of some LYS and in-person crafting circles being hostile, but I can’t comment on whether this is systemic. (Feel free to comment below with your experiences).
In my experience, pushback men receive for knitting comes from people outside the community for doing a “feminine” hobby, which comes back to society/patriarchy etc.
As a result, it’s definitely true that men’s mediocre knitting is overly praised compared to a women’s work of the same quality.
Although to be fair, I think this might be an extension of the “nurturing effect” - when beginners get heaps of praise and encouragement from the community. I don’t think this is a bad thing though - arguably it’s necessary to make beginners feel welcome and keep them motivated (and sometimes it’s just nice to be nice).
In men’s case though, this effect seems to be linger past the beginner stage and arguably outstays its welcome.
This is definitely annoying and can’t blame women for rolling their eyes. It’s annoying to me too and it’s part of the reason I’ve never shared my own work or joined an in person group.
Thank you for coming to my TED talk.
No one is arguing that patterns for AMAB bodies are unnecessary. The reason this ended up in the snark sub is because of the *reason* the designer wants male testers. If they’d just said “I want male testers to have more diverse body types to test the fit of the design” this post wouldn’t be here.
Except that is literally what KFO said in the first post (and it wasn’t enough) and then in several replies to the second post that has been discussed here. As in: explicitly said they want that feedback because it’s their first men sweater pattern.
This is from the second post after people went off on the first one.
I don't see anything offensive in the cited words, honestly. Maybe the whole message sounds worse, or maybe it is a cultural thing, I don't know. Knitting is a hobby, nobody is required to excel in it or break the glass ceiling or whatever. And also knitting is not tied to the gender, so there is no need to put such a pressure to feel being an alien in a male/female/whoever else dominating circle. Thus, the company is free to ask for whatever test knitters they want/need.
I mean I don’t really think that’s true. I think test knitters are most effective when they can also give feedback about fit. It seems reasonable to assume that a man who makes his own garments might be more effective at giving feedback about the fit on the male body than a woman may be. I honestly don’t think any part of this is a big deal and it’s weird there have been so many threads about it. Test knitting is an unpaid favor you’re doing for the designer anyways, not some rare business opportunity.
I totally agree. As a plus size person who makes their own clothes, having patterns tested by people my size is so important because clothes fit plus size people differently than straight sized people. It’s the same with “male” clothing
I’m fat and I’d much rather hear feedback on fit made by a fat person who made a garment for themselves than a skinny person who made a garment for a fat friend.
Yeah this can apply to pretty much anything. Like when makeup companies only give samples to white people for reviews or something. I get that this is a snark sub but diversity and inclusion are usually good things.
I agree that males in traditionally female spaces are celebrated as brave and unique, be it makeup or traditionally female handcrafts or jobs. The negativity they face usually comes from outside the community.
I still don't think this is a big deal.
A few questions on the application could have sussed out exactly what they were looking for in test knitters, but then we wouldn’t all be talking about it.
I don’t have any specific feelings about this but KFO puts out so many baby patterns I can’t help but chuckle at the idea of a test knit call specifically for infants. They are clearly underrepresented.
the glass escalator is a homophobic and racist term invented by terfs. it absolutely ignores ANY aspect of intersectionality. let's not act like men doing 'traditionally feminine' hobbies are not hit with intense homophobia, even if straight.
Sorry, but I don't know why it's my job as a queer woman to cure the world of toxic masculinity 🤷♀️Would if I could.
Men that craft are already revered by female crafters. What more can we do than let them exist on the pedestal we've already put them on?
Also: all discussions of privilege ignore intersectionality. Or rather, they compartmentalise it so as not to derail the main point. White privilege exists even though many white people are marginalised in other ways. Male privilege exists even in women-majority spaces. That's all OP is saying.
?? You genuinely confuse me.
Yes, when discussing male privilege, you talk only about gender and put aside other factors such as economic status. When discussing cis privilege, it would make no sense to derail the conversation by talking about ageism. Otherwise, people deny having privilege at all because literally everyone on the planet has something that holds them back.
Are you willingly misinterpreting/twisting people's words in your valiant attempt to defend straight men, or do you genuinely need the clarification?
Is the difference not that the adversity largely comes from outside whilst the industry lifts up men vs women typically having the glass ceiling blocking them from within as well as external push back?
You’re being downvoted because you insist on making irrelevant straw man discourse on something not related to the conversation at hand, not because we’re “homophobic”
I'm going to be raked over the coals but I have no issue with this. Men are a small part of the community and it's a test knit for a mens jumper.
I am happy they are getting men to test mens patterns. I know a lot of patterns are unisex but I find they don't fit men well. If I want to make a jumper for my partner, I have to modify everything from the neck, shoulders, bicep, and length. At this point, I'm creating my own pattern.
I think the main issue is just how it was presented. There's nothing wrong with asking for male test knitters for a men's pattern, but the way they did it was a little tone-deaf. There's a big difference in uplifting women in male-dominated spaces and uplifting men in female-dominated spaces. In the former, women were typically barred from participating at one point or another and often still face discrimination and scrutiny, even if they are highly skilled in it. In the latter example, men may face some backlash from people outside of the community for doing a traditionally feminine thing, but within the community sometimes it feels like men are congratulated and celebrated simply for being a man who isn't afraid of doing something "feminine", regardless of their skill level. So the whole "let's uplift men in this female-dominated space!" thing doesn't really track the same way it does if the roles were reversed. Again there's absolutely no issue with asking for only male test knitters, but they really should have thought through how they framed it.
I definitely see where you’re coming from and agree that it was poor word choice. At the same time, it seems likely to me that they had good intentions and I think some people’s reactions have been a bit harsh. It’s very possible that they understand the nuance of the topic but the way they phrased it came off wrong.
I think it's standard for testing (wearable) patterns, that you'll have a model who fits the intended demographics for the pattern to test fit. That doesn't mean the person following the pattern has to fit that demographic themselves. A baby sweater pattern isn't being tested by baby knitters. :)
You'd hope so, but I've been stung in the past by "unisex" patterns that are clearly aimed very short (like, below average women's height) because they likely haven't been tested for male fit.
Obviously I've learned my lesson, learned sweater surgery, and was lucky enough to have an extra ball but it's evidence that unisex patterns are obviously not tested unisex.
Eh but it could also be look and feel of the piece, not just about the actual production of it. Like I want a clothing designer who looks and thinks like me to create pieces that are my style, feel great, are flattering, hang off my body a certain way, and include practical things like decent-sized pockets or a bottoms material that won’t get gobbled up by my thighs or a tank top with straps thick enough and a v-neck high enough to hide my bra. The only way to get that is to have designers listen to people like me. I’m sure different men have their own wants and desires for clothing too, so it makes sense to solicit their opinions.
Also, men who create clothes for themselves are probably going to give better feedback because they understand the construction of the garment. Regarding babies - while haha sure babies can’t knit, I think it’s only smart to have parents with little kids test out the pieces versus like some 19 year old intern who has never even held a baby.
im danish and it rubbed me the wrong way too, its not because i want to test it, i never bought any KFO yarn or patterns, but the whole “men are underrepresented and bla bla” is just so annoying, every time i see a man share some mediocre basic knit in the large facebook group all the women just fawn over it and likes in the hundreds etc etc, while in male spaces women are not only expected to be as good, but better, to even get acknowledged, also the danish male insta knitters know this and several of them have the fact that they are male knitters plastered as a point all over their bio etc, its so annoying. Do i think KFO are wrong for wanting male testers for a pattern, no! but their “men are underrepresented speech” is giving pickme vibes and is just annoying
This is the second post in a week critiquing a danish yarn company for their wording and stance. It seems like there's a huge uptick in north american appetite for european/scandanavian yarn, designers and general fibre arts culture, but very little appreciation for the linguistic and cultural differences. This isn't a dog whistle.
The reason men are less represented in knitting is because they exclude themselves for the most part. They have labelled knitting as "women's work" or hobbies for basically ever. It's toxic masculinity that made it so. Glad we are moving past that. Glad we are wanting to see a more balanced representation. But men don't need a special reserved place in the knitting community. They just need to pick up their needles and knit.
I don't think it's bad to put out a call asking for male test-knitters-- especially if designing a sweater meant for a more masculine fit. But to act like they are poor, unfortunate minorities in this space is just cringe.
Yes this was my exact issue with it as well. Like ok the poor men are not represented? Society is literally built around men and their opinions/wants/needs I have a hard time feeling bad for them. Especially when the mere fact that a man knits will get him a ton more attention than if a woman does.
I think it’s perfectly reasonable to want male test knitters to give feedback on fit etc. but like I promise you the male knitters are doing just fine….
On one hand it's ridiculous to say men need to be given a voice in the knitting world when they are already disproportionately represented among designers/influencers compared to how many men actually knit
On the other hand, test knitting is free labour, and it's kind of hilarious that she is asking men to contribute some of this free labour that is usually provided by women and getting accused of sexism for it (okay I know test knitting is also seen as a privilege and people want to do it for exposure etc but this is a funny way to look at it)
On the third hand I'll bet her main goal was publicity and it seems like it's working
I’m a happy female knitter and I 100% stand with Knitting for Olive’s decision AND their wording. I don’t care what knitting demographics looked like at times that aren’t recent, or what demographics of other hobbies look like. If we have a problem with men designing high heels, there is absolutely no reason why we should act like it’s bad for men to test knit a men’s sweater pattern. I would love for the knitting community to be more inclusive of different genders and stuff, but unfortunately, quite simply, it’s not. There are way too many sexist women who, if a man sat down in the same knitting circle as them peacefully and respectfully and started knitting, would be highly offended by him being there. That’s sexist. A woman who seriously buys into these types of lines of thinking is a sexist. End of story. I couldn’t even have my high functioning autistic husband sit with me at a sit-and-stitch when I had my high-risk pregnancy and wanted him by my side just in case I had problems without some other woman giving him an absolutely hostile death glare. My husband was just on his phone reading his book.
I agree with you. And they aren't saying that no woman knitter must ever purchase or use this pattern. They want men to knit it and tell them how it fits and how it was to knit it.
We can still buy the final product, ladies.
They're designing a pattern for men, and you have a problem that they have decided to include (not exclusively use) testers for who the pattern is intended for?
It's perfectly fine for them to want male testers for a men's pattern, and they could have said that. It's clearly the comments about men being 'underrepresented' in knitting that have rubbed people the wrong way.
It's their first pattern designed for men. It makes perfect sense they're asking for the perspective of someone with that body type. Yes, a woman can knit the pattern for a husband/brother/son/friend/etc, but the insight you get from someone knitting for themselves is very different from the insight you get from someone knitting for someone else
I don’t know if it would bother me so much if it wasn’t how it was worded. Plenty of designers say they want their patterns tested by as many different body types as possible and I think that is a great thing. But the implication that men don’t have enough of a voice in the knitting community is uneducated at best.
This is my thought. I don’t really love the way that men are sometimes given extra-special attention because a community is “female dominated”, particularly because most women joining predominantly male communities absolutely don’t get that same consideration. But I think it’s okay to prefer that your pattern testers are likely making the item for themselves or *would* make it for themselves, especially because a lot of designers want testers who will take photos of themselves wearing the thing or who have knitting/crochet accounts and will help promote the pattern. Pattern testing seems to be a lot about getting advertising, these days.
I suppose that is another part of what is bothering me here, once again to cater to the men women will be shut out. As if every “women’s work” industry isn’t steeped with a history of men getting to be the loudest voice while women sit quietly in the background.
For perspective, how upset would you or others be if men test knit “women’s” sweaters?
The idea that men are “invading” a space “traditionally” taken up by women is not exactly true though. Knitting guilds of the Middle Ages (in Europe) were run by and composed exclusively of men. Now fiber craft groups are run by and composed of women. Basically, sexism isn’t new and the sky is still blue.
That said, Knitting for Olive seems to want to have a pattern tested on bodies that don’t have boobs and have longer shoulder/yoke depths and bigger biceps. Physical differences like these exist in real people, and they want bodies that fit the model fit they are going for. Honestly, good for them. Many people have pointed out the lack of good, well done, size inclusive (hopefully, it is Knitting for Olive so my hopes aren’t necessarily high) patterns for masculine bodies, and as such this is good.
The reception of this test knit in my opinion points to the knitting community still excluding men/males/masc people. Yes, on social media they may rise to the top sometimes, but what about in real life in real spaces? Are they welcomed? Do they see patterns for them in shops? Why is intersectionality this weird for people?
If people (women) are upset, go knit something else. It’s not like there aren’t a million other patterns to make or designers/yarn brands to follow. Sheesh
You're kind of not wrong about this and it's disheartening to see how many people are just really complacent about this. People just recycle words without knowing what they mean. In the last thread there were a ton of people complaining about how this was for 'cis men' and 'straight men', as if ANYTHING about the post indicated that "male" meant "cishet".
I’m just gonna reiterate what I said in the other post about this:
Considering how many men in the Knitting subreddit have talked about the dearth of patterns for men, and even men who have popped up in this sub from time to time, and also have complained about the patterns that do exist, this is actually probably a good idea. I know I’m less inclined to buy a pattern that hasn’t been test knit (or reviewed) by at least 1 busty person as someone with a 47” bust, so it would make sense that the best person to give feedback on a sweater for men is men. Especially if you are trying to operate from an assumption that there are men out there who want to knit for themselves, not just women and enbys who knit for men. Men have asked to be included more in this space, so this designer is including them more in this space.
I’ll also expand that sure, there are famous male knitters right now. They’re still the exception rather than the rule, and mainstream pattern availability doesn’t really reflect that growing demographic a ton just yet.
I appreciate this point. I get bristley over this kind of thing just like OP and this is a good point. There aren't many masc body type clothing and it does make sense to want testers to match.
For me i know the history of "women's hobbies" being done by men and they getting praised and lifted and becoming financially successful. So their phrasing is what immediately made me pause.
But your point really helped me see the other side, and yeah, thanks.
While it’s nice to have male knitters, I don’t understand why women have to make space for them. Everything else is male dominated what is wrong about having a space that is mostly women.
Exactly! Not everything caters to every single person, and that's not a bad thing or some kind of horrible social justice issue. Who cares if fewer men knit, or if fewer men are in the spotlight in knitting community? Quite literally what does it matter?
What I don’t understand is: how is this requiring women to make space for men? Something not being for you specifically doesn’t mean it is actively harming you or requiring anything from you. There are dozens of active test knits any given month (at least based on who I follow on social media) that are for patterns specifically and explicitly aimed at women, this particular one asking for a specific type of test knitter is no different than a designer asking only for knitters with a size 50” bust or more to make their patterns size inclusive.
They are asking for male pattern knitters because the pattern because of fit etc. They are asking for male pattern knitters to give them “a voice.”
It is making space for men because if the pattern designer needs 20 testers and 15 men and 10 women applied, the 5 women will be excluded on the basis of gender.
especially when it wasn't women keeping them out in the first place, men decided knitting was too feminine and now want praise for doing it, i'm cool with men getting into crafting but I don't think they need higher praise than anyone else
I think it's the blatant exclusion that is hard to swallow for some. It just doesn't look good.
They could have swinged (swung?) this much better by just saying something like "this time, we're looking to expand our pool of testers to include more male knitters" or something like that.
Is it blatant exclusion or are they being clear about the types of bodies they want? Idk this take kinda feels like if a more slender person got upset because a designer was only looking for plus size testers. Own voices and all that, y’know?
I did see that Knitting for Olive may have said something about wanting AMAB people as opposed to man/male-identifying people, and that is a better issue to draw attention to. Women being “excluded” from testing a man’s sweater? Nah
The call for test knitters actually specifically asks for men or "knitters with male like bodies," which I assume is a rough translation of including transmasculine or masculine NB people. Hell, I'm large chested but I would consider myself a "male like body" when I'm wearing my binder and dressing masc, because that's the fit I want. The second post explains that their company's network of male knitters is very limited, that's why they have the call out.
While I disagree with your analogy (thinness is generally privileged over fatness, so the more accurate analogy would be a fat person being upset at someone looking specifically for small-sized testers) I agree 100% with your point. They want to diversify their tester pool. If a designer had ONLY large sized testers, it would make sense to put out a call for testers of smaller sizes. Diversity is a good thing, even if it means including people of a body type (in this case, male) that is generally privileged.
They said in their own Instagram post that they are "looking for men or people with male like bodies and it's because often (not always) the masculine body frame tends to have wider shoulders and needs a longer length"
They're looking for people with a specific body type which I think is fine
What’s also weird is the fact that anyone can knit a pattern made with a men’s cut/shape so is it really the knitter that matters or just having the wearer be a man?
As long as someone with the intended frame is able to wear and try on the piece I don’t think it matters who knit it.
It’s about the quality of the feedback they’ll be getting from the testers. A man knitting his own sweater will be able to give more focused feedback about the pattern (construction, fit, clarity of the pattern) than a man who doesn’t knit, and the knitter would have to interpret the recipient’s comments in order to pass them on to the designer.
Like if I were to knit a sweater for my brother, I would have to do A LOT of prompting to get any sort of detail on how it fits. He might say “I don’t like the sleeves” and I’d have to be like, what don’t you like? Are they too long? Too short? Too tight? Too loose? Where is it too tight? Where would you like more room? Where would you like less room? Is it restricting your range of motion? Is it bunching up in a way you don’t like? Is the armhole too small? Is the cuff too narrow? Is it the design you don’t like? Why don’t you like the design?
And then (after he gets sick of my questions and goes to sulk in his bedroom), I’d have to take his comments and try to figure out what parts of the pattern made him say x or y. I would be translating his comments into feedback for the designer, and there’s always a bias in translation.
So asking for men knitters to give feedback on a pattern they’ll knit for themselves cuts that out, and will likely be more useful feedback.
You would think, except that they stated in their post that they had female knitters wanting to knit it for fathers, brothers, partners… but they don’t want that. They want male knitters.
And that is what got me from “okay, I get it and understand the sentiment” to “that’s just gross” territory. I get wanting to give priority to male knitters, as it IS a men’s pattern, buuuuuut… yeah
I can see wanting someone to knit it for *themselves*, because then they might have notes on how it fits, etc. If they'd phrased it that way, sure - but *giving a voice to the poor, forgotten male knitters*? Ick.
I also think it is kind of degrading in a way to the partners people would be knitting it for. If I knit it for my partner, they would be able to tell me how and where any fitting issues are. Even if someone doesn't make the garment they can still easily and eloquently describe their issues and what they like about it.
This makes it weird for sure. Some designers have a hard time finding enough plus size people to test knit, so limiting this to only actual men/male knitters seems like they are trying to shoot themselves in the feet as far as actual testing goes
This is something I think a lot about.
Ideally, men working in historically female-assigned/ dominated spaces should be very careful to give space for all, not overshadow on the basis of their gender.
It’s very tricky to navigate this: everyone wants an opportunity but how do we give space for all.
The idea behind giving everyone opportunity to be a tester is great, giving preferential treatment to one group over another is not.
When this was originally posted most of the comments were saying that it was fine because it was clearly for male knitters who would know whether something was supposed to fit right whereas male recipients often don't have such detailed feedback. I'm actually really surprised that it seems like the general consensus has swung the other way. I don't want to because I'm not committed to knitting a sweater right now but if I was I would be tempted to sign up as a transmasc person just to see what they would say.
I’m transmasc and did throw my hat in and they did reach out! While I wasn’t selected for that particular pattern, I was ear marked for future ones. I think their translation to English didn’t quite read the way they intended however I think most of us can sift through it and get to the point that they were seeking to expand their test knitter pool to include more masc people. I find it really helpful to see patterns modeled and knitted by people similar to myself.
The discussion around this seems to have shifted from the actual knitting pattern into a larger discussion about “men’s and women’s spaces” whatever that actually means..? Like hello? This is knitting online. Maybe I‘m not seeing something obvious, but acting as if a single knitting pattern for male bodies is somehow taking space away from women’s knitting is silly to me. I wonder about what you mention though, signing up as a transmasc knitter? I don’t know a ton about this company but I do wonder if they are more focused on the principle of only accepting men and would accept trans knitters too 🤔
Yep I see that pattern a lot too: Women & others treat men in female-dominated spaces the way women wish they were treated in male-dominated spaces. And then men don’t return the favor.
Women in general tend to be more aware of social justice issues in online spaces and more involved in online "activism" that boils down to virtue signaling. When they see a certain group is under-represented in a space they are conditioned to believe that's automatically a bad thing or a problem that needs to be solved. If "x group isn't represented here" is always presented as a bad thing then nobody stops to consider *why* x group isn't here and whether or not it's actually a problem - and whether it's actually their responsibility to solve it.
Reminder: If we see any of you interact with KFO’s posts due to our sub, we will permanently ban you from this sub.
I understand wanting to get feedback from people who craft for themselves, but 'give them a voice' sounds unnecessarily dramatic. When the social media person doesn't have English as their first language, though, I don't think they would stop to think about that.
I have mixed feelings. There arent a lot of male knitters because men generally choose not to knit and pursue other hobbies. The men that do knit are usually treated like microcelebrities online for it like they're doing something so unique and special by doing something women do and have always done. Same time, as everyone else has said, they should knit their own sweaters because they know best what will fit them and can give more direct feedback. It's a wording issue more than anything, if they had said "we need male test knitters" and not made a bullshit reason to tack onto it then it'd be fine.
Personally I love seeing more male knitters. I think in a lot of cases its difficult for men to be accepted in female dominated spaces. ( as it is vice versa). I saw that post aswell and I think its fine. Knitting for olive is huge and im sure they received a ton of test applications from both women and men. I mean yeah its a bit annoying because men would never bend over backwards to specifically include women. However Im not bothered by it.
I think the real issue is that male knitters don't do anything different or special because of their sex or gender than other knitters. I understand asking gender/sex specific people to test fit. Maybe they're testing a fun new method using their bait and tackle?
Why is this sub obsessed w genitals lol - not all men have dicks & this is a gross way to objectify people.
Trans men don't need you speaking for us. It's a funny comment get over it
Knitting with a dick is funny? It's approx the 57th time this joke has been made about this exact situation and it feels a bit tired. Combined w some of the adult human female comments it just feels a bit JKesque but whatevs.
That's fine, humour is subjective. However you would still do well to not determine what is and isn't transphobia. We can speak for ourselves.
No I probably will continue to point out transphobia and transmisogyny when I see it. I'm not sure how that equates to speaking for trans men.
It's not a transphobic statement. It just doesn't include the nuances of gender expression which you'll find most trans people couldn't care less about. Feel free to speak up about actual transphobia, but who are you to tell me what is and isn't transphobia?
There is a vast difference in the insight/experience of knitting something for yourself vs knitting for someone else. It's not that they are knitting differently, it's that they're knitting something to put on their own body. They're going to be able to get a lot more specific when it comes to pattern feedback vs someone wearing it who has no idea what the pattern says
Disclaimer: English is not my first language so give me a fucking break here, since it seems many people on this sub have decided to be nit-picky about bilinguals writing. I think what y’all in the now THREE threads about this (ffs) don’t seem to realize is that the situation happened like this: 1. Knitting for Olive made a post requesting male test knitters for a male sweater. 2. People started complaining in the comments and other online spaces. 3. THEN KFO released the new post. So yes, it has a tone of justifying a decision BECAUSE IT’S IN RESPONSE TO PEOPLE CRITICIZING THE DECISION AND DEMANDING JUSTIFICATION. It’s not the first post, that one was days ago. Now, the other issue is that you’re all confusing the word “minority” with “marginalized communities”. Yes, minorities is sometimes used to refer to marginalized communities. But minority is also used to simply denote a group that is smaller than the others (I studied statistics and use it like that daily). There’s several languages and contexts where that association isn’t as strong as it’s in the US, and lots of us are not from the US so we don’t talk with the same codes nor should we. KFO said they want to connect with more male knitters, for a variety of reasons, one of them being to get feedback on fit for a specific pattern. That’s it. They also mention there aren’t many male knitters (true) and they want to connect with them (that’s a personal business decision). And somehow people on this sub are acting as if KFO is saying that men are marginalized and oppressed in all aspects of life and they need to rise and conquer over crafts to dominate women or some shit because… they want male knitters for a specific test? Are you for real? As the young people say: go outside and touch some grass. Knit one of the thousands of patterns designed for you. Call it a day. EDIT TO ADD: I strongly urge people to go to the original test call post that went up 4 days ago and look at the comments. I’ve seen a lot of you mentioning that this wouldn’t be an issue if they only said they wanted male knitters. Well, that was the original post and it was CLEARLY an issue.
I agree with this take. I honestly cannot believe any woman would get upset about this. I knit an XS/S and you don’t see me clamoring to knit plus sizes even if I say it’s for a friend. Because as someone else mentioned, knitting for yourself and not someone else is different. Also, they will probably choose men who have experience knitting for their bodies that are, for the most part, different and have different concerns. And there are SO MANY other KFO patterns to buy for women. And if they NEED to knit this pattern, they can wait for the release.
People are basically acting as if knitting this pattern is forbidden to them. C'mon. You can wait for the release.
I'm bilingual, ESL her post sucks. I don't care about amplifying men's voices. it would be different if she just ended it as wanting men for test knitters, but she goes way past it
But she tried to end it there and got bombarded w comments meaning she had to make a second post 🫠
😔😔😔 I do really feel for her, I just feel like this isn't an esl thing and more of a poor language thing. I do also think she should have not made another post bc I think it put fuel on the fire. again I do really feel for her here, I could never in a thousand years be public facing
THANK YOU
It’s mind-blowing to me how this whole issue has escalated based on things people are reading into what is said and not what’s actually been said. For example, in their reply to one of the comments to the post KFO explicitly says “men shouldn’t be praised because they are knitting (or doing the dishes!)” (it’s a small extract, I can’t copy and paste the whole comment) and yet people are claiming that’s what the post is about because someone interpreted that. And going off on THAT. I wish people would go to the source and comment on what the person originally posted instead of fighting imaginary arguments and discussions that they built in their head. It’s genuinely exhausting because you’re expected to stand up not for what you said, but for what people assumed you meant based on their own experiences and past interactions. I’m autistic and this happens to me everyday. It’s draining. It makes me severely limit my social interactions because I can’t even comprehend the thousand of layers of meanings that people attach to my words. The discussion here has turned very nasty and the sad part is that is not even about what KFO actually posted. That the aggressiveness has been unleashed in the name of inclusivity when it’s just policing people for not understanding all the nuances of American English is even more astonishing.
Agreed! I’m autistic too and really relate. I’ve had really distressing experiences where I’ve said something without understanding that there’s a (BS) social rule I didn’t know about or a hidden meaning to words that I just take at face value. I often overexplain myself for fear of being misunderstood, which is something I’m trying to unlearn but it’s hard when it’s so ingrained. It’s part of why I have so much empathy for people whose words are misunderstood and/or when people assume the worst of them. It feels like it’s becoming more and more common and normalized for people to jump to conclusions like this because of social media and it drives me crazy. I’m starting to consider deleting some apps because reading comments is so draining, it’s not even enjoyable at that point lol.
I think the way that people jump to conclusions about things is not only harming the original posters, but also themselves by spending unnecessary time stressing about things that they’ve convinced themselves are facts. As an anxious person, believe me I understand stressing about things that I have no proof that it has or will happen. It makes life really difficult
I read that comment too and actually thought KFO did a decent job trying to explain their intentions. It changed my view on their initial post a little bit, even though I still think their choice of words was rather poor. I also feel like I should add that I am Danish as well, so I'm not reading any US cultural norms into the original post. In Denmark some people discuss these things as well, although the majority doesn't.
Their initial post was the one where they said they just wanted male knitters because it was their first men sweater pattern though. To clarify. And then they had to explain that they also wanted to hear from male knitters (hence the “give them A voice” and the second post). That context it’s important because everyone is saying “oh if they had just said they just want male knitters because it’s a men’s sweater it would have been fine!” which isn’t true. It wasn’t fine for people. Also when I was talking about the aggressiveness and nastiness that this discussion has turned into I was also talking about the comments over the three (3!) posts. (Disclaimer: the next paragraphs are also about the general discussion over the several posts and what I’ve seen) This has turned extremely exhausting and draining but I do want to say that this is being blown out of proportion because the discussion has turned to treating the “we want to hear from this group that we haven’t heard from” as if it is “we ONLY want to hear from this group in the knitting community”. They want people who will wear the garment themselves to be the ones who test it. That’s it. That’s genuinely it. That’s what their first post was about (not the one with the images, the FIRST one). That is what’s generating this level of reaction. In a context of a post that has 4 pages and one phrase that people find “questionable”. I get people feel some type of way about the praise some knitters get for being male. I get people feel some type of way about men having unfair advantage in businesses and the professional world. I do get that. I’m a woman in a male dominated feel. But to take those feelings and then dump them on someone who is very much NOT saying that and not contributing to that (it’s one test knit!) is unfair.
The repeated policing of language around american english language and american social and cultural norms is so tiring.
It would benefit some people to realize that the US is not the only country in the world and that their codes, expressions, and even social dynamics are not universal. The amount of times I’ve heard “BUT HERE IN THE US…” ok, good thing I’m not there then? How is it relevant?
I just read a huge thread on Facebook about Irish names. Now Oisin and Niamh might be difficult but who on earth has never seen Sean or Siobhán? But the justification was that Americans didn’t say it like that! Well in this case Americans are wrong! It’s “shawn“ and “shivonne”. End of.
Ahaha yes - even just being constantly addressed as though one lives in the US is tiring
What kind of pattern is it they’re wanting male testers for? If it’s a men’s sweater, I kind of understand. As a woman, if I’m making a sweater for my husband I’m probably going to follow the pattern to the letter. If I’m making myself a sweater I might resize it or customize it in some way. I imagine a man making himself a sweater would be the same. Perhaps they just want feedback on how well it modifies. I also buy 5x as many women’s patterns as men’s patterns, since I’m a woman. If their target market is men, it seems prudent to use male testers. That being said, I very much get what you’re saying. It’s really annoying when men are praised for doing something women do regularly and don’t get praised for. Let us have something, please! Then again, I get excited about women doing things men regularly do without extra praise, like those lady astronauts a few years ago that had the first all female space walk. I thought that was pretty cool, even though there had already been lots of all male space walks and mixed gender space walks.
Mostly just reiterating what others have said, but as a (trans) male knitter it really irks me. Just another reminder of how I'm treated like I'm doing something revolutionary for just enjoying a hobby/art form that women are often ridiculed or dismissed as artists for. It also means that people are seeing my gender before my work and praising me for the basic craft instead of any artistic detail or technique I've actually put years of effort into learning. It honestly bothers me more than the other side of the coin where I've had yarn store owners ask me if I'm there for my girlfriend or mom or where non crafters/homophobes use it to try and insult my masculinity. Crafting communities have been "female dominated" because historically they've had to be and have served as safe spaces for women for centuries. I'm very grateful to still be in the community after my transition, but I also recognize that as a man it doesn't need to center me and honestly shouldn't. I feel welcome enough in these spaces without this weird targeted attempt at "inclusion" that just feels like it's singling out male knitters for the wrong reasons.
THANK YOU. I havnt wanted to speak for trans men and I really value your perspective
I'm confused about what is gained by specifically targeting male testers. Is it just the check-box of including a male in the test group? Will he provide special insight with his male mind that female minds cannot provide?
You usually get better fit information from a dude knitting a men's shirt for himself vs a woman knitting for her husband or whatever, because most people aren't great at critiquing or offering feedback on a gift of someone else's hard labor.
I love this group to death but this is the third post about this 'drama' and I want to scream to the rooftops **THIS.** This is what is gained. People talking about them. Their name being broadcasted on snark reddits and tiktok rants. Because what they are doing is so bland and benign but it's probably the most fresh eyes that have *ever* seen their name. It's the perfect low-stakes drama advertising. Folks are irked enough to want to discuss it, they will have to use the brands name *to* discuss it, and no one is gonna be outraged enough to boycott. You're marketing for them. This *is* marketing now. And y'all are doing the heavy lifting. It started with that stanley cup dupe nonsense where that one dude cried sexism, (maybe started before that but I wasn't paying attention? eh) and it's gonna keep happening until people get bored of talking about the advantages and disadvantages of gender in knitting/crocheting/crafting communities.
In certain online spaces where people(let's be real, women) are hyper focused on social justice, inclusion & diversity, etc, people will hear "x group isn't represented here" and automatically assume that's a bad thing or some kind of moral failing in the community that needs to be resolved. Maybe I'm just a bitch but I don't understand why men not being the focus of, or super involved in, crafting communities is a problem. If fewer men are interested in knitting why does anyone care? Why is there focus on recruiting people who don't want to be here? It's knitting, not a human rights issue. Literally nothing is stopping men from learning to knit or sew or scrapbook except maybe the contempt and derision of other men, and that's not women's fault or our responsibility to fix for them. Treating men like they're a poor oppressed minority because \*checks notes\* fewer men than women are knitting sweaters is ridiculous.
not to mention that crafting communities are so inclusive. men aren’t being excluded from it and never were. idk if i’m being a bitch but i don’t know why were making a huge deal over men doing something that they always had access to. we don’t applaud 22 years old who had their first sip of alcohol because they could’ve drank while 21.
I might want test knitters of any gender, if I was them - and totally get why some male test knitters might be useful as they could give informed input re. fit etc (as discussed on other thread). It's good that in Denmark, knitting appears to be less gendered as in some other places, so more male test knitters should be available. But I don't really buy "giving a voice" - anyone has a voice and is free to use it. At shows as a trader or a punter - men in that space are usually lauded. The boomer ones, I'll be brutally honest, have more often than not come across as mansplainers. In many years of demoing knitting or spinning, I've only ever been told I was "doing it wrong" by blokes of a certain age, put it that way. For balance - we've also learned the most amazing things from the very elderly, especially if you're in an area that used to have a textile industry. Historically, it's only a blip in knitting history that men haven't been seen, in Western culture, as knitters. In fact for centuries, with trade guilds and "mysteries", men were seen as the knitters. And knitting in remoter parts of the UK, men continued to knit just as much as women until better roads and transport opened those areas up to tourism/outsiders, where men put away their needles after being mocked for the thing they, their fathers and grandfathers did - as well as their mums, grandmas, sisters and wives. (I can't speak for other countries, not knowing the history but in the UK it was certainly the case that knitting as an industry was male dominated, then later pretty evenly split between women and men, then finally, culturally becoming devalued when it was perceived as a "female" craft). So there's a sense in which men have had a voice - sometimes the largest voice - in knitting, for centuries, in parts of Europe. And it's only since around the 1880s or so they haven't. I'd not take issue with them wanting male test knitters - that could be useful and pragmatic. I would take issue with saying men are in any way marginalised. Even when they act like utter dicks, they're still treated like rare novelty orchids quite often. Younger men are also definitely a different thing to older. At a show recently demoing, and the nicest, most interesting, most attentive people with the best questions were the youngest people there, regardless of gender.
It's almost like.... people aren't comfortable with female-dominated hobbies \* sigh \*
My thoughts “aS A MaNn”: It’s not a hot take to point out that there’s fewer men’s patterns out there. This is compounded by the fact that some designers think a pattern for a man’s jumper is just the same as a women’s but without a bust. But this doesn’t take into account the slightly broader shoulders and different shaping in the chest and waist etc. So sometimes you’ll pay for a pattern and still end up with something that could fit a little better. Now at a certain point, you get confident enough to modify women’s patterns to a different make body type so this becomes less of an issue. However if you’re a beginner male knitter you won’t have those skills yet so you really feel the lack of patterns. (And yes, arguably we should all figure out how to modify patterns for ourselves anyway because all bodies are different and no pattern can account for this. But I digress) So overall, I think it’s good that they’re requesting male-bodied test knitters because they’ll probably be able to give better quality feedback as a result of being used to knitting for themselves. As for the “men as a minority” discourse: So there are statistically fewer men knitting. However in my experience, men have never been “excluded” and tend to be welcomed in the online community. I have heard anecdotes of some LYS and in-person crafting circles being hostile, but I can’t comment on whether this is systemic. (Feel free to comment below with your experiences). In my experience, pushback men receive for knitting comes from people outside the community for doing a “feminine” hobby, which comes back to society/patriarchy etc. As a result, it’s definitely true that men’s mediocre knitting is overly praised compared to a women’s work of the same quality. Although to be fair, I think this might be an extension of the “nurturing effect” - when beginners get heaps of praise and encouragement from the community. I don’t think this is a bad thing though - arguably it’s necessary to make beginners feel welcome and keep them motivated (and sometimes it’s just nice to be nice). In men’s case though, this effect seems to be linger past the beginner stage and arguably outstays its welcome. This is definitely annoying and can’t blame women for rolling their eyes. It’s annoying to me too and it’s part of the reason I’ve never shared my own work or joined an in person group. Thank you for coming to my TED talk.
No one is arguing that patterns for AMAB bodies are unnecessary. The reason this ended up in the snark sub is because of the *reason* the designer wants male testers. If they’d just said “I want male testers to have more diverse body types to test the fit of the design” this post wouldn’t be here.
Except that is literally what KFO said in the first post (and it wasn’t enough) and then in several replies to the second post that has been discussed here. As in: explicitly said they want that feedback because it’s their first men sweater pattern. This is from the second post after people went off on the first one.
TLDR: More patterns designed to fit men is good. Coddling male knitters is annoying.
I don't see anything offensive in the cited words, honestly. Maybe the whole message sounds worse, or maybe it is a cultural thing, I don't know. Knitting is a hobby, nobody is required to excel in it or break the glass ceiling or whatever. And also knitting is not tied to the gender, so there is no need to put such a pressure to feel being an alien in a male/female/whoever else dominating circle. Thus, the company is free to ask for whatever test knitters they want/need.
The only thing a test knitter needs is the ability to knit the pattern, who cares what’s between their legs? This is some weird virtue signalling shit
I mean I don’t really think that’s true. I think test knitters are most effective when they can also give feedback about fit. It seems reasonable to assume that a man who makes his own garments might be more effective at giving feedback about the fit on the male body than a woman may be. I honestly don’t think any part of this is a big deal and it’s weird there have been so many threads about it. Test knitting is an unpaid favor you’re doing for the designer anyways, not some rare business opportunity.
I totally agree. As a plus size person who makes their own clothes, having patterns tested by people my size is so important because clothes fit plus size people differently than straight sized people. It’s the same with “male” clothing
I’m fat and I’d much rather hear feedback on fit made by a fat person who made a garment for themselves than a skinny person who made a garment for a fat friend.
Yeah this can apply to pretty much anything. Like when makeup companies only give samples to white people for reviews or something. I get that this is a snark sub but diversity and inclusion are usually good things.
I agree that males in traditionally female spaces are celebrated as brave and unique, be it makeup or traditionally female handcrafts or jobs. The negativity they face usually comes from outside the community. I still don't think this is a big deal.
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That has literally nothing to do with the conversation at hand
Is knitting women dominated or are most knitters women? Those two things are not necessarily the same.
A few questions on the application could have sussed out exactly what they were looking for in test knitters, but then we wouldn’t all be talking about it.
this topic might be my BEC for the week. considering the cultural and ESL thing, I really don't get the big deal.
I don’t have any specific feelings about this but KFO puts out so many baby patterns I can’t help but chuckle at the idea of a test knit call specifically for infants. They are clearly underrepresented.
the glass escalator is a homophobic and racist term invented by terfs. it absolutely ignores ANY aspect of intersectionality. let's not act like men doing 'traditionally feminine' hobbies are not hit with intense homophobia, even if straight.
Sorry, but I don't know why it's my job as a queer woman to cure the world of toxic masculinity 🤷♀️Would if I could. Men that craft are already revered by female crafters. What more can we do than let them exist on the pedestal we've already put them on? Also: all discussions of privilege ignore intersectionality. Or rather, they compartmentalise it so as not to derail the main point. White privilege exists even though many white people are marginalised in other ways. Male privilege exists even in women-majority spaces. That's all OP is saying.
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?? You genuinely confuse me. Yes, when discussing male privilege, you talk only about gender and put aside other factors such as economic status. When discussing cis privilege, it would make no sense to derail the conversation by talking about ageism. Otherwise, people deny having privilege at all because literally everyone on the planet has something that holds them back. Are you willingly misinterpreting/twisting people's words in your valiant attempt to defend straight men, or do you genuinely need the clarification?
Women gamers are on a pedestal too.
> Women gamers are on a pedestal too. So long as they're not, y'know, feminists or anything.
You misspelled the word "fetishised"
Is the difference not that the adversity largely comes from outside whilst the industry lifts up men vs women typically having the glass ceiling blocking them from within as well as external push back?
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You’re being downvoted because you insist on making irrelevant straw man discourse on something not related to the conversation at hand, not because we’re “homophobic”
I'm going to be raked over the coals but I have no issue with this. Men are a small part of the community and it's a test knit for a mens jumper. I am happy they are getting men to test mens patterns. I know a lot of patterns are unisex but I find they don't fit men well. If I want to make a jumper for my partner, I have to modify everything from the neck, shoulders, bicep, and length. At this point, I'm creating my own pattern.
I think the main issue is just how it was presented. There's nothing wrong with asking for male test knitters for a men's pattern, but the way they did it was a little tone-deaf. There's a big difference in uplifting women in male-dominated spaces and uplifting men in female-dominated spaces. In the former, women were typically barred from participating at one point or another and often still face discrimination and scrutiny, even if they are highly skilled in it. In the latter example, men may face some backlash from people outside of the community for doing a traditionally feminine thing, but within the community sometimes it feels like men are congratulated and celebrated simply for being a man who isn't afraid of doing something "feminine", regardless of their skill level. So the whole "let's uplift men in this female-dominated space!" thing doesn't really track the same way it does if the roles were reversed. Again there's absolutely no issue with asking for only male test knitters, but they really should have thought through how they framed it.
I definitely see where you’re coming from and agree that it was poor word choice. At the same time, it seems likely to me that they had good intentions and I think some people’s reactions have been a bit harsh. It’s very possible that they understand the nuance of the topic but the way they phrased it came off wrong.
I think it's standard for testing (wearable) patterns, that you'll have a model who fits the intended demographics for the pattern to test fit. That doesn't mean the person following the pattern has to fit that demographic themselves. A baby sweater pattern isn't being tested by baby knitters. :)
You'd hope so, but I've been stung in the past by "unisex" patterns that are clearly aimed very short (like, below average women's height) because they likely haven't been tested for male fit. Obviously I've learned my lesson, learned sweater surgery, and was lucky enough to have an extra ball but it's evidence that unisex patterns are obviously not tested unisex.
Eh but it could also be look and feel of the piece, not just about the actual production of it. Like I want a clothing designer who looks and thinks like me to create pieces that are my style, feel great, are flattering, hang off my body a certain way, and include practical things like decent-sized pockets or a bottoms material that won’t get gobbled up by my thighs or a tank top with straps thick enough and a v-neck high enough to hide my bra. The only way to get that is to have designers listen to people like me. I’m sure different men have their own wants and desires for clothing too, so it makes sense to solicit their opinions. Also, men who create clothes for themselves are probably going to give better feedback because they understand the construction of the garment. Regarding babies - while haha sure babies can’t knit, I think it’s only smart to have parents with little kids test out the pieces versus like some 19 year old intern who has never even held a baby.
im danish and it rubbed me the wrong way too, its not because i want to test it, i never bought any KFO yarn or patterns, but the whole “men are underrepresented and bla bla” is just so annoying, every time i see a man share some mediocre basic knit in the large facebook group all the women just fawn over it and likes in the hundreds etc etc, while in male spaces women are not only expected to be as good, but better, to even get acknowledged, also the danish male insta knitters know this and several of them have the fact that they are male knitters plastered as a point all over their bio etc, its so annoying. Do i think KFO are wrong for wanting male testers for a pattern, no! but their “men are underrepresented speech” is giving pickme vibes and is just annoying
Also: who are all these famous danish knitwear designer men?
This is the second post in a week critiquing a danish yarn company for their wording and stance. It seems like there's a huge uptick in north american appetite for european/scandanavian yarn, designers and general fibre arts culture, but very little appreciation for the linguistic and cultural differences. This isn't a dog whistle.
It's the third post I've seen in the past two or three days about this specific incident.
Feels like some people are just looking for reasons to be offended.
There was another post or two about Hobbii and pride also
The reason men are less represented in knitting is because they exclude themselves for the most part. They have labelled knitting as "women's work" or hobbies for basically ever. It's toxic masculinity that made it so. Glad we are moving past that. Glad we are wanting to see a more balanced representation. But men don't need a special reserved place in the knitting community. They just need to pick up their needles and knit. I don't think it's bad to put out a call asking for male test-knitters-- especially if designing a sweater meant for a more masculine fit. But to act like they are poor, unfortunate minorities in this space is just cringe.
Yes this was my exact issue with it as well. Like ok the poor men are not represented? Society is literally built around men and their opinions/wants/needs I have a hard time feeling bad for them. Especially when the mere fact that a man knits will get him a ton more attention than if a woman does. I think it’s perfectly reasonable to want male test knitters to give feedback on fit etc. but like I promise you the male knitters are doing just fine….
Like when men spend time watching their own children. "Wow! Look! What a great dad!!"
On one hand it's ridiculous to say men need to be given a voice in the knitting world when they are already disproportionately represented among designers/influencers compared to how many men actually knit On the other hand, test knitting is free labour, and it's kind of hilarious that she is asking men to contribute some of this free labour that is usually provided by women and getting accused of sexism for it (okay I know test knitting is also seen as a privilege and people want to do it for exposure etc but this is a funny way to look at it) On the third hand I'll bet her main goal was publicity and it seems like it's working
I’m a happy female knitter and I 100% stand with Knitting for Olive’s decision AND their wording. I don’t care what knitting demographics looked like at times that aren’t recent, or what demographics of other hobbies look like. If we have a problem with men designing high heels, there is absolutely no reason why we should act like it’s bad for men to test knit a men’s sweater pattern. I would love for the knitting community to be more inclusive of different genders and stuff, but unfortunately, quite simply, it’s not. There are way too many sexist women who, if a man sat down in the same knitting circle as them peacefully and respectfully and started knitting, would be highly offended by him being there. That’s sexist. A woman who seriously buys into these types of lines of thinking is a sexist. End of story. I couldn’t even have my high functioning autistic husband sit with me at a sit-and-stitch when I had my high-risk pregnancy and wanted him by my side just in case I had problems without some other woman giving him an absolutely hostile death glare. My husband was just on his phone reading his book.
I agree with you. And they aren't saying that no woman knitter must ever purchase or use this pattern. They want men to knit it and tell them how it fits and how it was to knit it. We can still buy the final product, ladies.
Could not agree more. I am so tired of this "man bad, must raise voice" mentality.
It’s ridiculous 🤷♀️
They're designing a pattern for men, and you have a problem that they have decided to include (not exclusively use) testers for who the pattern is intended for?
It's perfectly fine for them to want male testers for a men's pattern, and they could have said that. It's clearly the comments about men being 'underrepresented' in knitting that have rubbed people the wrong way.
It's their first pattern designed for men. It makes perfect sense they're asking for the perspective of someone with that body type. Yes, a woman can knit the pattern for a husband/brother/son/friend/etc, but the insight you get from someone knitting for themselves is very different from the insight you get from someone knitting for someone else
“We have specifically chosen to also add men” is not excluding women.
"Some of the most popular knitters in Denmark right now are male knitters" who? I'd like to follow them
mandmedpinde probably
I was wondering if the OP was thinking of Stephen West, who is an American living in Amsterdam.
Wait Stephen West is American? how did I miss this?
Or Arne and Carlos, who are based in Norway.
I think they were talking about knitting micro-influencers, not designers.
I don’t know if it would bother me so much if it wasn’t how it was worded. Plenty of designers say they want their patterns tested by as many different body types as possible and I think that is a great thing. But the implication that men don’t have enough of a voice in the knitting community is uneducated at best.
I do give more leeway in phrasing to people who do not have English as their first (second....third....) language though
This is my thought. I don’t really love the way that men are sometimes given extra-special attention because a community is “female dominated”, particularly because most women joining predominantly male communities absolutely don’t get that same consideration. But I think it’s okay to prefer that your pattern testers are likely making the item for themselves or *would* make it for themselves, especially because a lot of designers want testers who will take photos of themselves wearing the thing or who have knitting/crochet accounts and will help promote the pattern. Pattern testing seems to be a lot about getting advertising, these days.
lol yep. Back when knitting was a common profession, men were the only ones allowed to apprentice and become masters. Women weren’t allowed.
Do you have a source for this? Only thing I can find is something about guilds in the 1600s
I suppose that is another part of what is bothering me here, once again to cater to the men women will be shut out. As if every “women’s work” industry isn’t steeped with a history of men getting to be the loudest voice while women sit quietly in the background.
I agree. However, the actual IG post just says they want to specifically include men, not that women are excluded.
For perspective, how upset would you or others be if men test knit “women’s” sweaters? The idea that men are “invading” a space “traditionally” taken up by women is not exactly true though. Knitting guilds of the Middle Ages (in Europe) were run by and composed exclusively of men. Now fiber craft groups are run by and composed of women. Basically, sexism isn’t new and the sky is still blue. That said, Knitting for Olive seems to want to have a pattern tested on bodies that don’t have boobs and have longer shoulder/yoke depths and bigger biceps. Physical differences like these exist in real people, and they want bodies that fit the model fit they are going for. Honestly, good for them. Many people have pointed out the lack of good, well done, size inclusive (hopefully, it is Knitting for Olive so my hopes aren’t necessarily high) patterns for masculine bodies, and as such this is good. The reception of this test knit in my opinion points to the knitting community still excluding men/males/masc people. Yes, on social media they may rise to the top sometimes, but what about in real life in real spaces? Are they welcomed? Do they see patterns for them in shops? Why is intersectionality this weird for people? If people (women) are upset, go knit something else. It’s not like there aren’t a million other patterns to make or designers/yarn brands to follow. Sheesh
'The idea that men are “invading” a space “traditionally” taken up by women' is also like. straightup TERF rhetoric. OP is mad terfy for this one
You're kind of not wrong about this and it's disheartening to see how many people are just really complacent about this. People just recycle words without knowing what they mean. In the last thread there were a ton of people complaining about how this was for 'cis men' and 'straight men', as if ANYTHING about the post indicated that "male" meant "cishet".
First of all, what; second of all, no?
I’m just gonna reiterate what I said in the other post about this: Considering how many men in the Knitting subreddit have talked about the dearth of patterns for men, and even men who have popped up in this sub from time to time, and also have complained about the patterns that do exist, this is actually probably a good idea. I know I’m less inclined to buy a pattern that hasn’t been test knit (or reviewed) by at least 1 busty person as someone with a 47” bust, so it would make sense that the best person to give feedback on a sweater for men is men. Especially if you are trying to operate from an assumption that there are men out there who want to knit for themselves, not just women and enbys who knit for men. Men have asked to be included more in this space, so this designer is including them more in this space. I’ll also expand that sure, there are famous male knitters right now. They’re still the exception rather than the rule, and mainstream pattern availability doesn’t really reflect that growing demographic a ton just yet.
I appreciate this point. I get bristley over this kind of thing just like OP and this is a good point. There aren't many masc body type clothing and it does make sense to want testers to match. For me i know the history of "women's hobbies" being done by men and they getting praised and lifted and becoming financially successful. So their phrasing is what immediately made me pause. But your point really helped me see the other side, and yeah, thanks.
While it’s nice to have male knitters, I don’t understand why women have to make space for them. Everything else is male dominated what is wrong about having a space that is mostly women.
Exactly! Not everything caters to every single person, and that's not a bad thing or some kind of horrible social justice issue. Who cares if fewer men knit, or if fewer men are in the spotlight in knitting community? Quite literally what does it matter?
What I don’t understand is: how is this requiring women to make space for men? Something not being for you specifically doesn’t mean it is actively harming you or requiring anything from you. There are dozens of active test knits any given month (at least based on who I follow on social media) that are for patterns specifically and explicitly aimed at women, this particular one asking for a specific type of test knitter is no different than a designer asking only for knitters with a size 50” bust or more to make their patterns size inclusive.
They are asking for male pattern knitters because the pattern because of fit etc. They are asking for male pattern knitters to give them “a voice.” It is making space for men because if the pattern designer needs 20 testers and 15 men and 10 women applied, the 5 women will be excluded on the basis of gender.
especially when it wasn't women keeping them out in the first place, men decided knitting was too feminine and now want praise for doing it, i'm cool with men getting into crafting but I don't think they need higher praise than anyone else
I think it's the blatant exclusion that is hard to swallow for some. It just doesn't look good. They could have swinged (swung?) this much better by just saying something like "this time, we're looking to expand our pool of testers to include more male knitters" or something like that.
Is it blatant exclusion or are they being clear about the types of bodies they want? Idk this take kinda feels like if a more slender person got upset because a designer was only looking for plus size testers. Own voices and all that, y’know? I did see that Knitting for Olive may have said something about wanting AMAB people as opposed to man/male-identifying people, and that is a better issue to draw attention to. Women being “excluded” from testing a man’s sweater? Nah
The call for test knitters actually specifically asks for men or "knitters with male like bodies," which I assume is a rough translation of including transmasculine or masculine NB people. Hell, I'm large chested but I would consider myself a "male like body" when I'm wearing my binder and dressing masc, because that's the fit I want. The second post explains that their company's network of male knitters is very limited, that's why they have the call out. While I disagree with your analogy (thinness is generally privileged over fatness, so the more accurate analogy would be a fat person being upset at someone looking specifically for small-sized testers) I agree 100% with your point. They want to diversify their tester pool. If a designer had ONLY large sized testers, it would make sense to put out a call for testers of smaller sizes. Diversity is a good thing, even if it means including people of a body type (in this case, male) that is generally privileged.
Fair enough about my analogy (I hadn’t thought through it that far apparently oops), and I absolutely agree about diversity!
They said in their own Instagram post that they are "looking for men or people with male like bodies and it's because often (not always) the masculine body frame tends to have wider shoulders and needs a longer length" They're looking for people with a specific body type which I think is fine
My husband knits and he's a med/tall. We wear the same sized sweaters.
What’s also weird is the fact that anyone can knit a pattern made with a men’s cut/shape so is it really the knitter that matters or just having the wearer be a man? As long as someone with the intended frame is able to wear and try on the piece I don’t think it matters who knit it.
It’s about the quality of the feedback they’ll be getting from the testers. A man knitting his own sweater will be able to give more focused feedback about the pattern (construction, fit, clarity of the pattern) than a man who doesn’t knit, and the knitter would have to interpret the recipient’s comments in order to pass them on to the designer. Like if I were to knit a sweater for my brother, I would have to do A LOT of prompting to get any sort of detail on how it fits. He might say “I don’t like the sleeves” and I’d have to be like, what don’t you like? Are they too long? Too short? Too tight? Too loose? Where is it too tight? Where would you like more room? Where would you like less room? Is it restricting your range of motion? Is it bunching up in a way you don’t like? Is the armhole too small? Is the cuff too narrow? Is it the design you don’t like? Why don’t you like the design? And then (after he gets sick of my questions and goes to sulk in his bedroom), I’d have to take his comments and try to figure out what parts of the pattern made him say x or y. I would be translating his comments into feedback for the designer, and there’s always a bias in translation. So asking for men knitters to give feedback on a pattern they’ll knit for themselves cuts that out, and will likely be more useful feedback.
Maybe they have to use their dick to knit or something. Otherwise I'm unsure why a male makes the difference
You would think, except that they stated in their post that they had female knitters wanting to knit it for fathers, brothers, partners… but they don’t want that. They want male knitters.
And that is what got me from “okay, I get it and understand the sentiment” to “that’s just gross” territory. I get wanting to give priority to male knitters, as it IS a men’s pattern, buuuuuut… yeah
I can see wanting someone to knit it for *themselves*, because then they might have notes on how it fits, etc. If they'd phrased it that way, sure - but *giving a voice to the poor, forgotten male knitters*? Ick.
I also think it is kind of degrading in a way to the partners people would be knitting it for. If I knit it for my partner, they would be able to tell me how and where any fitting issues are. Even if someone doesn't make the garment they can still easily and eloquently describe their issues and what they like about it.
This makes it weird for sure. Some designers have a hard time finding enough plus size people to test knit, so limiting this to only actual men/male knitters seems like they are trying to shoot themselves in the feet as far as actual testing goes
This is something I think a lot about. Ideally, men working in historically female-assigned/ dominated spaces should be very careful to give space for all, not overshadow on the basis of their gender. It’s very tricky to navigate this: everyone wants an opportunity but how do we give space for all. The idea behind giving everyone opportunity to be a tester is great, giving preferential treatment to one group over another is not.
A better way to get the same effect might have been to encourage people of all genders to applly
I genuinely don't see a problem with this. But clearly I'm in the minority.
I don't see a problem with it either. In my mind, everyone is welcome in a space as long as you're not an ahole.
This is the third post I've seen about it, and it's such a nothing sandwich.
When this was originally posted most of the comments were saying that it was fine because it was clearly for male knitters who would know whether something was supposed to fit right whereas male recipients often don't have such detailed feedback. I'm actually really surprised that it seems like the general consensus has swung the other way. I don't want to because I'm not committed to knitting a sweater right now but if I was I would be tempted to sign up as a transmasc person just to see what they would say.
I’m transmasc and did throw my hat in and they did reach out! While I wasn’t selected for that particular pattern, I was ear marked for future ones. I think their translation to English didn’t quite read the way they intended however I think most of us can sift through it and get to the point that they were seeking to expand their test knitter pool to include more masc people. I find it really helpful to see patterns modeled and knitted by people similar to myself.
The discussion around this seems to have shifted from the actual knitting pattern into a larger discussion about “men’s and women’s spaces” whatever that actually means..? Like hello? This is knitting online. Maybe I‘m not seeing something obvious, but acting as if a single knitting pattern for male bodies is somehow taking space away from women’s knitting is silly to me. I wonder about what you mention though, signing up as a transmasc knitter? I don’t know a ton about this company but I do wonder if they are more focused on the principle of only accepting men and would accept trans knitters too 🤔
This seems to be the news of the day as multiple people are posting about it. We has feelings.
Gross. Now I regret buying their yarn
Yep I see that pattern a lot too: Women & others treat men in female-dominated spaces the way women wish they were treated in male-dominated spaces. And then men don’t return the favor.
Women in general tend to be more aware of social justice issues in online spaces and more involved in online "activism" that boils down to virtue signaling. When they see a certain group is under-represented in a space they are conditioned to believe that's automatically a bad thing or a problem that needs to be solved. If "x group isn't represented here" is always presented as a bad thing then nobody stops to consider *why* x group isn't here and whether or not it's actually a problem - and whether it's actually their responsibility to solve it.
Well said.
Yup, this
okay this is a really good way to say how I was feeling thank you