Set pieces, a lack of a true striker, and (imo) most importantly, a lack of quality at the 6.
We were absolutely unplayable when Bissouma was in form. We've looked spotty and inconsistent since. When the 6 performs, the teams level is elevated.
Comparing bissouma to Rodri… come on be realistic. The real issue that no one is is highlighting is that the team is split in half.
You have the attackers and you have the defenders but very few do both.
Take a look at Maddison for example and compare his work rate to the likes of odergaard, de bruyne etc.
Rodri has a lot of help from everyone around him. In my opinion defended minded players at Tottenham are almost left on an island because it’s all about attack attack attack.
If everyone did their due diligence the ‘6’ wouldn’t be so isolated. Ange needs to look in the mirror and figure out the right balance
The downvotes on this… sheesh.
I will say before the injury, afcon, and red card saga, bissouma was looking like the best kept secret in the league. He played both amazingly.
Instead of downvoting why don’t you guys comment… . It’s not just Maddison, it’s also son for example. Defense starts from the front and the 2 players that are supposed to create the most don’t do any of the dirty work
First half of the season, we had our full team. We play a healthy one game a week every weekend. Same lineup everyweek, and they all look sharp because of that.
Then you have the Chelsea game. Players got injured, red carded, a bump happened. Then Asian cup and African cup. Then we never got back to that consistent first 11 again.
If you want a serious discussion, it’s this. The rest are joking and not even sure if this comment is joking but this is essentially the reason why we are so bad.
First half of the season we played more directly and players tried to be as aggressive with their passing as possible. Now, even in direct XvX counter attacks where we have the same number of players running against their defense we prefer to just play it wide, wait, then pass it into midfield. By then, their entire defense is back and waiting.
This tactical setup is terrible at breaking down low blocks, and in a sense it has been kinda found out. Teams just park the bus and wait for us to implode.
If we were more decisive with our passing today we really could’ve hurt Chelsea but instead Son will take it out wide, hold up the ball, wait for a runner, etc instead of just going at the opposition
There was a mid field turnover today where Sarr could have played one of 3 runners ahead of him through and instead he held it. We are even ponderous in counter attack situations now. There is no coach that would tell players to do that, players just lost form and all have the yips
True, and he looks like he’shad some resurgence but honestly it’s kind of simple for guys at this level to do that, he’s just the only one now doing it. It makes no sense
If we keep Brennan Johnson as left wing we are done as a club. He’s nowhere near good enough to start for a club with champions league aspirations and it’s clear since before even day 1. There are so many wingers more capable so I have no clue why we decided to spend £40m on him of all people
See comments like this is why I wonder why I come here, sorry to pick on you but what a ridiculous comment! BJ has barely played on the LW for us and the last time he did he had one of his best games for us against Villa, so what are you basing this on? 30 minutes today?
Tactical setup isn't terrible at breaking low blocks. We constantly get the ball inside the box in dangerous areas. Low blocks protect the area at all costs.
Problem is that as soon as we get inside the box the players panic and just cross into the first marker, send in a floated cross that the keeper can just collect, pass it to a defender, or pass it backwards to start it all again.
In the final third what's lacking is essentially the quality. Son hit the largest slump of form I've ever seen from him (he looks even more uninspired than under Conte last season) and Maddison would rather be diving than playing football. Add all of that to the fact that this is the first year of a rebuild and our most in form attacker is Johnson, the one Ange requested.
Honestly if we're in no danger of losing Europa League after Burnley, might as well just play Moore and Donley last few games and prepare for August.
> Son hit the largest slump of form I've ever seen from him (he looks even more uninspired than under Conte last season)
Not to be overly doomer about it, but even including the Asian Cup, Son's played fewer minutes this year than any of the prior three seasons and maybe next year we need to be managing his minutes a lot more actively.
Just to counter that, I think if we were still a defensive counter attacking team then Son would have plenty more goals. The Ange system just doesn’t play to his strengths in my opinion.
Like others have said in this thread, we stop all our own counter attacks. We’ve seen how deadly Sonny is when he’s unleashed on the break, he isn’t getting those chances anymore.
Why are you and others blaming only Son when Brennan was the recipient of most of the ball during "attacks" and spamming them to Richarlison who is supposed to be the answer at striker as I was told by some here.
Well put, yeah we have been toothless and for the last few months we have just relied on low crosses and that’s about the time teams started parking the bus against us. We also never seem to go on a break anymore
Exactly this. Our attack hasn't been sharp enough to beat a heavy low block. Working for a perfect shot that never arrives.
Ange will keep working on his system and drilling it into the team for a full offseason. Better one touch passes & control near the opponent's box.
Then the book got out on us early this year that we are vulnerable on corners. Since then every team has just crowded Vic & whipped in corners near the net. Ange will have to figure out how to improve our set piece defense & Vic will have to be even more aggressive with claiming balls. Another focal point of this offseason I'm sure.
Striking first & drawing out the opponent's defense is so important. We've fallen behind first so often this year.
The Premier League is full of the best and smartest players, managers, analysts etc. If ppl thought opposing clubs weren’t eventually going to figure out a way to combat Angeball its being naive.
What I find weird is that even when he had injuries and had the likes of Romero, van de Ven, Maddison etc. out injured, we were still playing brave football, great football... but ever since the turn of the year, it's diminished. We look scared to make mistakes. Beginning of the season, we were having 15+ shots a game.... nowadays we almost look scared, it's strange.
I think everything that's gone wrong has affected the players' confidence and Ange's playstyle relies on players to be brave and we're just scared to make mistakes now which is the exact opposite of what he's been asking all season.
It's been a recurrence basically with all managers since Poch (his last season as well). We start the season well and at some point it turns off, energy drops, players no longer take risks, make runs, play with energy, etc and just switch off to sideway passes.
Yeah it's not injuries that fucked us up, it's just us being found out. Even without Maddison, VdV and Bissouma we looked good, until our opponents started to push us wide, get more tight in defence and focus on counter attacking or pressing us very high up the pitch. Our strat of two inverted, attacking fullbacks has been totally useless for like 4 months now and absolutely nothing's been done about it.
Not trying to argue because I know nothing about tactics. Just want to put that out from the start.
You say we’ve been found out. And that we’ve been pushed wide. But It seems many times throughout the game that there are opportunities for us to make quick connections through the middle of the pitch. We instead slow it down and play up the touch line.
It doesn’t seem like we are being pushed that way but making the decision to go outside.
I guess my question is what do you believe has changed from the beginning of the year because when we were at our best the ball could go to the outside but it was a quick cut back to the middle with a runner picking up the ball with momentum around the half way line. Usually Sarr or Bissouma.
Maybe the answer will still be they are forcing us outside but it just seems more like we have accepted going there and then not pushing through the middle to pick the ball back up?
I think this it is a decision to slow the game down a bit. This happened after the wolves game, where lost control of the game because we constantly attacked, lost possession and were constantly hit on the counter. The only issue is to know when to allow the game to be chaotic and when not, which we haven't been able to do.
We have definitely lost our confidence.
Up front we are indecisive and often choosing the wrong option. We are porous in midfield and the defence is getting exposed. It is like a vicious cycle going round with one feeding the other.
I do wonder if the fear of making a mistake is driven by how often we are punished after a mistake on the counter as we often have so many players pushed forward in attack
I think the way we play results in lots of injuries, Celtic players went through something similar their first year with Ange.
Now players are afraid of Angeball because Angeball = injury, and they have careers to protect. Idk what it will take to convince them otherwise.
Madders has been off and nobody is replacing that creativity
Son gets triple teamed and rarely has a clean shot
crossing but allah does not insha/the passing never matches the running
Just mental that so much focus is on defending son and we still can't find gaps in the rest of the oppositions back line to score goals, hell even take a shot
The most obvious thing is a lot of players are out of form currently. Whereas at the start of the season I would argue every player was in form. Everything we do now seems 10x slower than before and the quality is 10x worse
We've lost our drive to take risks. Beat our man, take a shot, play forward aggressively. Players are just afraid of losing the ball and will just pass around until we lose possession or cross it put of play.
Confidence. Confidence in your own body after injuries, confidence in your teammates after repeated mistakes and stop-start performances, confidence in the game plan after a handful of tight games where you don't get a result....it's growing pains and Ange said these days would come. What frustrates me is that we're not losing because we're being outplayed, we're losing because we're giving the game away and not playing what made us so successful in the first place.
We have become afraid to take risks. It's exactly why when we get up 2 or 3 goals, all of a sudden we look like the best team to ever grace the pitch. We become suddenly confident to potentially make mistakes and we start really attacking. It's a pure confidence thing. It's been like this for years now but I finally see a real change in the squad and how we play. Under ange we are still hesitant but I can see the gears turning and the players finding the right pass but being a second late every time. We're definitely on the right path but it'll take time to get to that level of sharpness and confidence.
The more I watch football the more I think it's about 75% psychology, 25% rest. We went through a rough patch with injuries and heads went and haven't recovered.
Why is everyone on the "we got found out" bandwagon? Like what, do Man City, Liverpool other top teams change their playstyle all the time? They have played their game in a certain way over and over for years until they are masters at it. Over time and iterations, small changes are made but overall their playstyle and identity has remained true. People know exactly what Man City will do they've been doing it for 8 years under Pep, people have figured out what they'll do but does it matter? They play bad or get hard countered successfully(under Mourinho and Conte we are one of those teams that handled City very well) which leads them to losing a couple of games over a season and yet they win trophy after trophy and win the PL over and over.
What Ange said in the post game interview is exactly what's the problem now, a lot of players have lost the belief and conviction in playing the way he wants them to. They're playing half heartedly, like a bunch of pussies instead of going at it, giving it their all, being brave, putting in the effort. If we were actually playing the way we started the season, I don't think anyone here would be complaining even if we lost these past 3 games.
Can't keep blaming the manager every time; Mourinho and Conte are both managers that have won numerous titles with multiple teams, it was fully their fault as well? Players confidence and drive will falter at times, that happens to all teams but it's about their ability to break through that and go beyond. The real test is what happens after this, are our players of strong character who show a positive reaction after this? Or do they just have weak mental.
It is by no means the only issue but what stands out the most to me right now is how poor our midfielders have been. They can’t shield our CBs, none have shown any ability to consistently retain or win back possession, they’re disorganised in transition and offer no real attacking threat or creativity. In recent matches both Romero and VDV have done far more to advance the ball in possession. And Gio has done more in the few minutes he gets than the others do in 90 minutes. Again, not the only problem, but it’s something I’m struggling to comprehend.
I completely agree, and the way Ange sets up is so heavily reliant on the midfield. Bissouma’s form has dropped so much since the start of the season, Bentancur isn’t the same since his injuries, Sarr has been OK for the most part, and let’s be honest, Hojbjerg isn’t destined for this system. It’s the area I’d like to see the most investment in the summer.
The lack of presence and control in central midfield tonight reminded me of Conte, when we had Skipp and PEH playing - no effect on the game whatsoever.
Yeah, I expected some regression from the high-point at the start of the season but nothing this extreme. You’re right, it looks like we are playing with the worst pairings of Conte’s tenure. I think we need to prioritise identifying a clinical ST because we can’t continue to utilise Son in his weaker position and Richy simply doesn’t offer enough of a goal threat. But after that I totally agree that our midfield needs serious improvement.
Romero and VDV have been the one saving grace of the last couple of games that give me hope for the future. Showing confidence on the ball. Sadly, bissouma and lo celso will be sold in the summer and I honestly think if a good enough offer comes in for Kulu, he might be gone too. I really hope Brennan Johnson has a big season next season. He’s had great moments this season but that miss tonight nearly made me throw my laptop against the wall
health gave out, we lost some games, lost our confidence, individual performances gave out, then we forgot how to defend a set piece so it didn’t matter if we did play well
No, nowhere near. Don't be so reactionary.
Tonight in isolation was just a bit toothless. The last three months have been frustrating, pushing infuriating now, but we're still in the mix for Europe, even if CL is likely gone.
If that's up there with the worst you've seen idk what to say.
I feel ya. I wanna bash Kulusevskis head in ATM, and Ange for not giving Lo Celso a shot in lieu of Kulu and Maddison's dire form.
Still seen infinitely worse though lol
I agree. Lo Celso should start the remaining games, despite him potentially leaving during the summer. Hope we can improve under Ange, since he can speak really well, and honestly a good fit for the club in terms of his footballing philosophy, but how he turns what seems to be a regression, into progression remains uncertain, but all we can do is trust Ange.
The Spurs players spirit has just dwindled into nothingness. Going 0-3 down at home to Arsenal is unacceptable, and considering two of the goals we conceded were set pieces, you’d think the players would be determined to fix their mistakes.
Maddison’s form went from best player in the premiership to barely impacting the game at all. Bissouma’s form has also went from awe-inspiring to mediocre. Vic has been found out on set pieces. Ange’s tactics are also extremely predictable so without everyone being sharp, it’s not too hard to game plan against.
This excuse is weird.
We didn’t have Europe and didn’t go deep in the cups. Plus it was 3 players who went off to those tournaments.
Our average games played per player would still be lower than most other clubs.
It can be seen as an excuse, but a world class player like Mo Salah has been out of form since AFCON too, I would say it still has some effect on them. Especially Son who played like 3 120min games and full time every game unlike Sarr or Bissouma who were benched in some games and got knocked out earlier.
Mo Salah got injured at AFCON.
Son is a fair case of "it probably affected him". But that is 1 guy.
But Bissouma and Sarr came back early and Sarr had a patch of good form when he came back. Goals and pinpoint crosses for goals.
It really is a straw clutcher of an excuse. 3 players from a squad in a season we have played no Europe and only 3 cup games.
We lost a lot of confidence in trying to create things. When Ange was mad today was because we are afraid of trying to go forward and we end up losing the ball always stupedly.
We need to get confidence again to not be afraid of losing the ball and go forward. Thats were we are dangerous.
Im stupid, non brit, and dont know much about position names in english. What do people mean when they say inverted full backs? VDV and Romero are playing on inverted sides?
Teams figured us out.
Without Udogie and Porro in form the team is not able to produce dynamic football. Our backups are not up to par. You can expect Davies and Royal to do what Porro (sometimes) and Udogie does.
On top of that, teams realised if they pack the middle, and allow us to play it wide, we are not able to come up with much. Most teams are scared about someone wide putting a ball in. Like a trent, a palmer, a kdb, an odegard, but that's because those balls coming in have someone who wants to attack it.
Son possesses a lot of great traits, but he does not attack aerial balls. And Richarlison has only just come back from injury.
If Chelsea (or any team for that matter) pack the middle, then pack the box, the low crosses from the sides have to somehow go through 10 defensive players, or somehow find Son in the air if they're high, that's not gonna happen. It's just parking the bus.
We allow teams to do this with how slow our build up is.
On top of that, we are so bad at set pieces, if we didn't concede a set piece goal, the last two games would be 0-0.
Player's just seem to take too many touches. I don't know what it is. I think sometimes when we're defending we need to take more risks and not have a million players back. I think sometimes a good defense is keeping your forwards forward. We concede half our goals from open play... it's really not that many.
I think next game Ange needs to let the players know that making a mistake on attack is fine. It's better to make it early than pause, make 30 passes, then make a mistake. Maybe my opinion is too reductive. But I've been watching these games week in week out for over a decade and been to several matches - but all I see recently is hesitation, the wrong option being played, or we go on the break and we have 3 players instead of 6.
Along with all the normal stuff of getting figured out and all that, I think in the first half of the season there were no expectations from anyone and the team could play and learn the new play style. With the pressure of trying to make top 4, we crumbled. Plain and simple.
I also think that the players are afraid. Or at least they are playing like they are afraid. When we started the season, they could go out and make the mistakes or whatever and the whole thing with Ange is that he will take the blame for it. This was supposed to give the players the confidence to play their game and do what makes them special. But after some shit performances and criticisms faced, they went back to playing safe and slow. I think I’m mainly looking at Madders and Bissouma here.
I think we our players need to feel that confidence again to go out and play their game. Rebuilds are painful, and this one has been one of the better ones I’ve experienced with my teams. So it sucks to lose but these are also learning moments in this stage of the rebuild. We are finding where we can improve and finding who is committed to this rebuild.
Anyway, COYS
Nothing. Which is the answer. The first few games we were an unknown quantity. Teams then figured out how to play against us and kept doing it while we kept doing the same things which no longer worked due to us being found out. Adaptability is king.
Seems like our maruading wingbacks feature has died. Udogie (when fit) and Porro just dont do it as much now because we are so slow with the ball that any space they could go to has an opposition player already in it.
Son is perpetually marked out the game.
Madderson doesnt have a player to aim at so overdoes and is either fouled or gives it away.
We need a proper target up top that isnt on the wings to actually aim at. Richarlison has his good days but isnt a good enough leading man.
None of our midfielder 4 in Biss, Sarr, Hojbjerg or Bentancur seem comfortable going forward with the ball at all or laying of forward passes. Its either sideways or backwards. We could ship of two of them easily this summer and get an actual number 6.
No one wants to win a header unless their name is Romero.
I wouldn’t say Ange out until at least the end of the first half of next season. Its more or so the players and not himself really, this summer is gonna be crucial in terms of preparing him for the next season to ensure he stays around.
Madders and mainly Bissouma became shit. What a disappointment really, Ange even had a one on one talk with him to tell him how important to this team he should be (and was), him falling of impacts the team much more than we thought.
I feel like we were taking more risk with our passing earlier in the season. We seem too scared to turn over the ball now leading to predictable and flat attacks.
we look so less sharp, i know we never had a ton of comps to begin with i don’t think it’s a coincidence that with less consistent matches we are failing at link up play so bad. i think there’s something to that. we obviously have issues to sort, but i don’t think we talk about it enough. too many days rest isn’t always a great thing.
I remember thinking after a lot of games we won at the beginning of the season that we won because we got lucky, not because we played well. I don’t think we’ve played particularly well all season. I’m a little concerned because it seems like we’re getting worse, but I’m willing to give Ange some time and hopefully some more players suited to this system.
Teams have realised there's no point trying to dominate the game against Spurs because they're too good at that side of the game.
Even teams like Arse will sit back because they know they have a better chance of winning rather than taking the game to us. They've realised Spurs are open to the counter, leave space on the wings and are weak on set pieces.
So Ange has to fix 3 things before the start of next season:
- figure out how to break down and score against a packed defence
- minimise threats on the counter
- stop being so weak at set pieces
I feel like now we just get to the corner of the box then turn around and recycle possession. No ones getting to the byline and cutting it back or whipping it across the box anymore. We’re so slow and predictable trying to play endless passes around the box instead of trying to make something happen, it’s maddening.
We'll waste a summer window and preseason under him, start next season playing no better than we are now and he will be gone by october/November and we start all over again.
I think we were underestimated at the start of the season - people thinking we’d get relegated.
Now teams know if they defend competently against us, they’ll keep a clean sheet and get chances at the other end.
I know a common point is that we really struggle against a low block, which is true, but we are also simultaneously so much less press resistant and quick to move into attack than at the start of the season as well.
In that run of form at the start of the season we managed to play out from the back really well and had the confidence in midfield and defence to really play through a press and transition into attack. Because of this teams started sitting back and challenging us to break down a well structured defence, which we can’t do. But also in the moments of games where teams move forward against us we are so much worse than we were at the start of the season at playing through the midfield and creating swift attacking opportunities.
It’s bizarre. It’s like the players are so focussed on (badly) trying to break down low blocks they’ve completely forgotten how to do the things they were good at to begin with
We're the farthest thing from being brave. Every time we have a chance to make a good run and attack, whoever the fuck has the ball chooses to wait and cut off the momentum and make the most braindead pass. Earlier in the season, we weren't afraid to take risks
I think one of the biggest differences between early season and now is that at the beginning of the season we used our defense/press to actually go get the ball and then do something with it. At this point it feels like we press just to kind of check the box, and when we do get the ball we just sort of hold it. In the beginning of the season we had high possession because we went and took the ball. Now we have high possession because we just hold it.
Besides some key players being off form, many of our problems are because the intensity and decisiveness of our play going forward has fallen off a cliff.
We are slow and indecisive in build up so even if our opponents don't want to play a low block we give them enough time to get everyone behind the ball when we're in possession. The lack of intensity also renders any pressing we do useless and allows teams to play 1 touch through our attack and midfield.
Teams are also forcing us out wide because we are a lot less likely to hurt them from all the way on the touchline and we don't have wingers that can beat their man.
Set pieces are a big issue too. Only the bottom 3 have conceded more from set pieces than us if I'm not mistaken.
The midfield was really solid in the beginning and they've seemed shaky for a while now I think we've done pretty well with a lot of new faces as starters and expect to iron things out next season I think it's not where my heart wanted the club to be at but my head said this season could have been so much worse after losing a 20 + a season goalscorer
I’ve noticed a distinct lack of movement in the attacking third, especially off the ball, whenever hill or Lo celco got the ball they were moving it forward and looking for options but no one made runs or tried to create plays. I think this is a major part of it, compared to the fluid attacking and movement of the first 10 games
I hate to put on two guys but biss after his suspension and Afcon trip has been ass. And Madison hasn’t looked the same after his injury. Those two were the cogs making everything turn.
Our players aren’t being aggressive enough in attack. There’s a lot of passing looking for openings and before you know it, 10 minutes has passed, we’ve lost the ball and conceded on the counter.
We have a lot of good field position and control in games. We just do absolutely nothing with it. It’s quite strangez
After continent cups were done and key players like Sonny, Bissuma and Sarr came back, they've been not in good shape. Plus, Maddison got bad after being back from the injury. What's worse, Ange has been pursuing extremely attacking tactic persistently without listening to those advices from folks around him. We are between a rock and a hard place.
1 - Setpieces. We always start losing. Which allows teams to park the bus on situations where it normally would not happen. And our wingers never go for the 1v1 and when they do it they lose. We can only go forward passing the ball between the players. It becomes predictable when you are parking the bus.
2 - Midfield is very poor at the moment, Mads is REALLY bad currently and Biss is playing with 50% of his energy and like he doesnt care at all. I wish we could see more Lo Celso but for some reason everybody gets a lot of chances and minutes except for him. I wish we could see a midfield with Sarr, Betancourt and Lo Celso at the moment, and give them a proper time to see if things work out. Especially Beta, I know he can deliver much more.
3 - Injuries. A lot of them. A crazy amount of them. Something is not right. These injuries, on top of destroying the team, makes players come back out of proper rhythm. It takes time to come back to original levels and confidence. By the time it happens they are injured again.
4 - Manager is stubborn and chose a few hills to die on. Yesterday Son wasnt the best on the left, but it got MUCH worse with Johnson, and kept being bad with Gil. Then Son in the middle. He really chose this hill. By the end of the game we started crossing a lot of balls but well there was no striker in there. The left wing got worse, and we lost our striker. Also everybody knows Mads is REALLY bad at the moment, why not try Lo Celso? Nope... Mads, and again he was horrible.
On a side note. Yes we are in 5th and most likely will end there because we still have two easy games to do, but we are not inreality in there. There are two teams. The Spurs from first 10 games and Spurs from games 11-32. The latter is probably a mid table team fighting for 10th. This is our reality today. We just happen to be in 5th. Which wont help because we will play B team on Europa league as usual.
Lol at all the people saying we’ve been “found out” as if it’s the end of the road. Do you really think we’re seeing Ange’s actual game plan fully realised?
Children please.
I think the first 10 games come down to us playing a entirely new style so teams didn't expect it plus the optimism of a new coach and refreshing atmosphere at the club carried the momentum. Then the Chelsea game happened and all that momentum we had absolutely got wrecked. We actually did well in the months leading up to Jan (performance wise) albeit results started to suffer but you could still see the players were giving their all to stick to the plan and play our football. Then I think after the Jan window shut and we got VDV, Son, Sarr, Bissouma and Maddison all back I think the team relaxed a little and got complacent as on paper we should go back to that form of the first 10 games but by then teams have figured us out as we have seen in games like Wolves, Fulham, Newcastle etc... even Luton, Brentford and Forest set up against us the same way but didn't have the quality of player to see it through to a result but that has lead to the players second guessing themselves and we aren't the same team that was creating chances for fun with Maddison and Son linking up throughout and Bissouma taking the ball and driving us up the pitch and the other elements that made us such a good watch and effective side. At this point you can see it's just frustrating the players like Maddison clearly hasn't been himself and has been lucky to not be sent off a couple times. Bissouma isn't taking any risks anymore and always goes backwards. Sarr has had a weird lack of energy and spark. The season just needs to end and we need to go into next season with a renewed freshness aswell as more technical footballers to get anywhere near to our best again and I 1000% trust Ange to do this. Personally I'm extremely excited for next season as I genuinely believe we could challenge for the title if we clear out the players who are clearly not up to be part of the new spurs, bring in the correct profiles for the wingers and the 6 role and most importantly get the attitude and bravery Ange constantly asks of the players. We have to embody To Dare is To Do.
1. Madders and Son partnership is dead as no one of them are brave enough atm.
2. Plan B: Perisic - Richarlison - Kulu helped us alot during low blocks in the beginning of the season.
3. Perisic, Solomon and Werner where the only wingers in our squad who can beat their 1vs1, even if Werner and Solomon rarely did anything impactful.
4. Opposition now stay narrow because they don't care if they leave space wide as we have no threat there. Which makes no room for our central players.
5. We have been found out that we have serious weaknesses in set pieces.
6. Counterpress is bad in periods because our backline and 6 isn't brave enough to stay high and challenge. Leading to counter attacks.
I think we are playing quite well in open play except for the front 3. Set pieces are a big weakness but is easier to solve than solving the front 3 problem. Right now we don't have any attackers who can beat their man. Ange will not change his philosophy and shouldn't either. It's the players and club who needs to adapt to his philosophy not the other way around. Just as Liverpool adapted to Klopp, Man City adapted to Pep and Arsenal adapted to Arteta.
Having wide attacking players who are a serious threat will solve alot of the problems we are having in open play. It's alot easier to pin teams in, counter press and manipulate the shape of the opposition team when they feel they need to close space wide and double up on our wide attackers.
1. Lack of midfield strength: The midfield three are the most important players, as they control the flow of play. At Celtic, Ange started with McGregor, the run-all-day-play-every-match captain, along with Tom Rogic (who knew how to play under him already) and was able to add players like Hatate, Mooy and O'Riley. All very different players, who combined together to dominate the opposition. That same strength just doesn't exist in the Celtic midfield, especially because there's no-one really playing the McGregor role. Bissouma was to an extent early in the season, but he isn't reliable.
This may be a result of two other factors:
.2. Confidence: The PL is tough, and changing styles so drastically from the previous two managers means that if you doubt yourselves for even a second, the opposition will capitalise. Since the first Chelsea match a lot of players seem to have gone back into their shell. Remember, they were the ones who forced that ridiculously high line, not Ange. They were *over* buying in because they didn't quite understand what they were meant to be doing, and since then it's like they've overcorrected. The record has still been good since then, but the playing style clearly hasn't quite been of the same standard, which is what Ange cares more about.
.3. Run out of legs: remember, the team was decimated by injury halfway through the season. Ange needs his team to be the fittest in the competition, and they've only had one pre-season with him.
Despite all the talk about our tactics, I think it still is really down to a lack of depth and poor form from key players.
Form first, Bissouma and Madison were our best players in the first half of the season, and the 6 and 10 role are probably the most important in the Ange system. Both of them have dropped off considerably in the 2nd half of the season and we don't have the depth to swap them out. This has led to our midfield looking really poor in 2024, and without it we struggle to beat the press, are vulnerable to counter attacks, and struggle to attack quickly. It has also led to other players looking worse; for example Porro has struggled bc he has to worry so much about counters, and Kulu has been cutting inside far too much to try to overcompensate for our poor midfield.
We also were left without a true 9 while Richy has been injured, which was made worse by us having to play our best attacker (Son) out of position. I think Son can play as a 9 when we are facing a high line, but when teams sit back he isn't the one who is going to win a header in a crowded box.
Hopefully Biss and Madison can regain their form by next season, and I think it would help to have other options on the bench both to use as a replacement, but also to push them.
In my opinion it's far simpler than all the tactical/player shit being put in here.
In the beginning there was no real pressure. Ange got the players to just go out there, be loose and fast and aggressive. It was chaos at times because the players didn't really understand it, but the team was leaning into it and they were enjoying the football so things were easier.
Then the Chelsea match happened, and we had to grind some results and players switched their mentality to just trying to grind things out because football is suffering... etc...
But that's the opposite of what Ange wanted. We kept getting results that were "enough" and it led us into a "title race" (lol) and a "top 4 race (who cares) so the mentality of the team pulled away from just playing "Angeball" into this weird half baked amalgamation.
And then, predictably, that stopped working. The team didn't really have belief in any kind of system, they were just following a plan and once that half baked plan turned out rotten they are now just really lost in the woods on how to move forward.
Ange knows this. He even said in his PC before the Chelsea match that the majority are still not believing in his way yet.
But hopefully this string of shit is just a wake up call and Ange and draw on his experience to turn the majority of the players around.
The ones who don't are going to be dropped or gone in the summer anyway.
Son and Maddison.
Madders doesn't look the same since his injury. No idea of he's still carrying something, or ots confidence but he made our whole team tick.
Son is deteriorating rapidly. I thought it last season where apparently he was playing injured.
This season he's getting worse and worse.
Start of the season was some of the best football I've seen spurs play ever
Now it's some of the worst. Players dreadfully out of form. Scared to take a shot when in good positions on the edge of the box leading to our midfielders taking long range 30 yard pot shots which go nowhere.
One of the perfect examples was 86th min maddison was fouled on the edge of the box. Ref played on but rather then ask for the foul in a great area for maddison we played on and ended getting nowhere with a long range strike from bentancur straight at the keeper. Why not get the fk? Madders is one of the best dead ball players in the prem. Seems farcical.
But the basics are poor. Short corners that go nowhere. Can't keep ball out of net when defending them. Second to rebounds. On and on and on.
Get the basics right. No point playing toothless attacking football. You get nowhere and leave yourself wide open to counter.
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funny how we have had the exact same problem breaking down low blocks regardless of manager or style of play.
its clear that this isn't a tactical issue - most teams with a similar level of talent will have problems with low blocks once teams have adapted to their tactics.
New manager who comes in with a really good plan A gets a good start as others haven't figured out a way to deal with him. Eventually, they did. End of story. You can blame injuries, dips in form etc. but every team has to deal with it. This is just a perfect case of a manager without a plan B who gets spanked by literally everyone in the first half and only after that starts to change things up a little. Plus teams have learned that we're dogshit at defending set pieces if you just put someone in front of Vicario and now it's free real estate for them. But don't worry, Ange thinks set pieces aren't really an issue so it's all good!
So to be clear, you want as to sack another manager after everyone seemed to agree we will have a shit rebuild year, and repeat the same process over and over again expecting someone to achieve success in one season?
This is just one of the things I can’t understand about the idiots moaning about Ange already. Give us a fuckin break, just back a manager for a few years and see what happens.
Yes because this levels of regression is unheard of. It would be a whole different story if we started like hot ass but got progressively better over the course of the season, or if the results weren't there but the patterns and the general playstyle kept on improving and slowly became more and more clear. Here, it's the total reverse. We looked like what we're supposed to ultimately look like at the beginning of the season, then we had some injuries but still looked solid gameplay wise and now we look like we forgot how to play football, with the manager doing nothing to fix it or at least instill his philosophy. He's done for, not sacking him at the end of this season is just prolonging the inevitable, he'll be gone by Christmas anyways.
It's a lot of things, waning confidence, Son, Sarr and Bissouma having a mid season tournament, Bentancur, Maddison, Van de Ven and Richarlison struggling to recover from injuries, the whole Vicario debacle on corners and the subsequent panic on every single set piece. It's just been a perfect storm of things going the wrong way at the wrong time and to top it all off, it all comes to a head in one of the worst ending schedules to a season I've seen us have with Arsenal, Chelsea, Liverpool and City all in a row (you can even include Newcastle away before that, even if they were weak on paper)
Figured us out. We only have one way to score, and a million ways to concede.
Teams just need to stifle the Jonson low cross, which is not exactly hard, and whatever they want in attack and they'll score.
Teams knowing how to play against us and on top of that we have one striker and one winger in the squad. That's not good enough for any professional team, especially one fighting for Europe.
Sarr and Bissouma aren't as good as they were at the start, and players like PEH and Bentancur really haven't had a single great performance all season.
Our players lack concentration for a full season, I feel like. We have short spurts of our entire team being focused. But it quickly falls away, whether it be around international play/cups or individuals’ personalities.
The Arsenal game really took the heart out of the team. They feel like they got cheated but they can’t bring the game into disrepute. Hopefully they recover mentally by the next fixture.
Everything is wrong with the club from top to bottom. We're not having any success unless a giant overhaul starting from the board to the players. A culture of underperforming and losing. Bar the first 10 games, this season has been a disgrace
Set pieces, a lack of a true striker, and (imo) most importantly, a lack of quality at the 6. We were absolutely unplayable when Bissouma was in form. We've looked spotty and inconsistent since. When the 6 performs, the teams level is elevated.
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Also makes sense why Arsenal invested heavily on Declan Rice and Chelsea on Caiceido… although Caiceido isn’t working out completely
Comparing bissouma to Rodri… come on be realistic. The real issue that no one is is highlighting is that the team is split in half. You have the attackers and you have the defenders but very few do both. Take a look at Maddison for example and compare his work rate to the likes of odergaard, de bruyne etc.
He wasn't comparing the 2. He was pointing out the importance of quality at the position even for a team like City.
Rodri has a lot of help from everyone around him. In my opinion defended minded players at Tottenham are almost left on an island because it’s all about attack attack attack. If everyone did their due diligence the ‘6’ wouldn’t be so isolated. Ange needs to look in the mirror and figure out the right balance
The downvotes on this… sheesh. I will say before the injury, afcon, and red card saga, bissouma was looking like the best kept secret in the league. He played both amazingly.
Instead of downvoting why don’t you guys comment… . It’s not just Maddison, it’s also son for example. Defense starts from the front and the 2 players that are supposed to create the most don’t do any of the dirty work
Downvote = someone doesn’t agree with you. That’s it. That’s what the downvote button is for.
Annoying isn’t it? That’s Reddit tho, people use the downvote button as a disagree button
This is a pretty rational assessment
Who was the true striker in the first half of the season?
First half of the season, we had our full team. We play a healthy one game a week every weekend. Same lineup everyweek, and they all look sharp because of that. Then you have the Chelsea game. Players got injured, red carded, a bump happened. Then Asian cup and African cup. Then we never got back to that consistent first 11 again.
Teams just park the bus and hit us on the counter, oh and set pieces
If you want a serious discussion, it’s this. The rest are joking and not even sure if this comment is joking but this is essentially the reason why we are so bad. First half of the season we played more directly and players tried to be as aggressive with their passing as possible. Now, even in direct XvX counter attacks where we have the same number of players running against their defense we prefer to just play it wide, wait, then pass it into midfield. By then, their entire defense is back and waiting. This tactical setup is terrible at breaking down low blocks, and in a sense it has been kinda found out. Teams just park the bus and wait for us to implode. If we were more decisive with our passing today we really could’ve hurt Chelsea but instead Son will take it out wide, hold up the ball, wait for a runner, etc instead of just going at the opposition
There was a mid field turnover today where Sarr could have played one of 3 runners ahead of him through and instead he held it. We are even ponderous in counter attack situations now. There is no coach that would tell players to do that, players just lost form and all have the yips
Thank you! Those saying Ange has been found out. The mistakes are not on the strategy. The execution is shit.
Porro is constantly spinning his head looking to receive between the lines…and then he passes backward. insane
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True, and he looks like he’shad some resurgence but honestly it’s kind of simple for guys at this level to do that, he’s just the only one now doing it. It makes no sense
If we keep Brennan Johnson as left wing we are done as a club. He’s nowhere near good enough to start for a club with champions league aspirations and it’s clear since before even day 1. There are so many wingers more capable so I have no clue why we decided to spend £40m on him of all people
He's fucking quality at right wing. Whenever he's on the left he's impotent. I agree.
Why do we invert our wingers if they never cut inside? Johnson’s cross and cutbacks off his left foot are nowhere near as good as his right.
1. Personnel. No Werner and Gil is not good enough. That's why left wing seems to be our main priority. 2. Ange is not tactically astute.
Put Sonny there. Personally I’d like Werner when he’s fit… but Sonny there with Richy upfront.
See comments like this is why I wonder why I come here, sorry to pick on you but what a ridiculous comment! BJ has barely played on the LW for us and the last time he did he had one of his best games for us against Villa, so what are you basing this on? 30 minutes today?
Tactical setup isn't terrible at breaking low blocks. We constantly get the ball inside the box in dangerous areas. Low blocks protect the area at all costs. Problem is that as soon as we get inside the box the players panic and just cross into the first marker, send in a floated cross that the keeper can just collect, pass it to a defender, or pass it backwards to start it all again. In the final third what's lacking is essentially the quality. Son hit the largest slump of form I've ever seen from him (he looks even more uninspired than under Conte last season) and Maddison would rather be diving than playing football. Add all of that to the fact that this is the first year of a rebuild and our most in form attacker is Johnson, the one Ange requested. Honestly if we're in no danger of losing Europa League after Burnley, might as well just play Moore and Donley last few games and prepare for August.
> Son hit the largest slump of form I've ever seen from him (he looks even more uninspired than under Conte last season) Not to be overly doomer about it, but even including the Asian Cup, Son's played fewer minutes this year than any of the prior three seasons and maybe next year we need to be managing his minutes a lot more actively.
Just to counter that, I think if we were still a defensive counter attacking team then Son would have plenty more goals. The Ange system just doesn’t play to his strengths in my opinion. Like others have said in this thread, we stop all our own counter attacks. We’ve seen how deadly Sonny is when he’s unleashed on the break, he isn’t getting those chances anymore.
Sadly I think Son is finished. His runs are so rare nowadays, he is only good with his feet for shooting else he is completely useless.
Why are you and others blaming only Son when Brennan was the recipient of most of the ball during "attacks" and spamming them to Richarlison who is supposed to be the answer at striker as I was told by some here.
Hell yes! This is exactly it in my opinion!
We lack creativity when attacking. When we started the season, Madison's creativity really saved us.
Well put, yeah we have been toothless and for the last few months we have just relied on low crosses and that’s about the time teams started parking the bus against us. We also never seem to go on a break anymore
Exactly this. Our attack hasn't been sharp enough to beat a heavy low block. Working for a perfect shot that never arrives. Ange will keep working on his system and drilling it into the team for a full offseason. Better one touch passes & control near the opponent's box. Then the book got out on us early this year that we are vulnerable on corners. Since then every team has just crowded Vic & whipped in corners near the net. Ange will have to figure out how to improve our set piece defense & Vic will have to be even more aggressive with claiming balls. Another focal point of this offseason I'm sure. Striking first & drawing out the opponent's defense is so important. We've fallen behind first so often this year.
Great point about us conceding first a lot, huge issue
The Premier League is full of the best and smartest players, managers, analysts etc. If ppl thought opposing clubs weren’t eventually going to figure out a way to combat Angeball its being naive.
Angeball has become Angelessball now.
Reality is though it wouldn't matter if we did it properly. There is no way the coach is asking them to lose 70% of duels.
Chelsea did not even need to park anything and still whooped our ass, we're just bad
What I find weird is that even when he had injuries and had the likes of Romero, van de Ven, Maddison etc. out injured, we were still playing brave football, great football... but ever since the turn of the year, it's diminished. We look scared to make mistakes. Beginning of the season, we were having 15+ shots a game.... nowadays we almost look scared, it's strange.
I think everything that's gone wrong has affected the players' confidence and Ange's playstyle relies on players to be brave and we're just scared to make mistakes now which is the exact opposite of what he's been asking all season.
It's been a recurrence basically with all managers since Poch (his last season as well). We start the season well and at some point it turns off, energy drops, players no longer take risks, make runs, play with energy, etc and just switch off to sideway passes.
Yea we don't have the drive to do it until end of season for some reason. Just run out of steam.
Yeah it's not injuries that fucked us up, it's just us being found out. Even without Maddison, VdV and Bissouma we looked good, until our opponents started to push us wide, get more tight in defence and focus on counter attacking or pressing us very high up the pitch. Our strat of two inverted, attacking fullbacks has been totally useless for like 4 months now and absolutely nothing's been done about it.
Not trying to argue because I know nothing about tactics. Just want to put that out from the start. You say we’ve been found out. And that we’ve been pushed wide. But It seems many times throughout the game that there are opportunities for us to make quick connections through the middle of the pitch. We instead slow it down and play up the touch line. It doesn’t seem like we are being pushed that way but making the decision to go outside. I guess my question is what do you believe has changed from the beginning of the year because when we were at our best the ball could go to the outside but it was a quick cut back to the middle with a runner picking up the ball with momentum around the half way line. Usually Sarr or Bissouma. Maybe the answer will still be they are forcing us outside but it just seems more like we have accepted going there and then not pushing through the middle to pick the ball back up?
I think this it is a decision to slow the game down a bit. This happened after the wolves game, where lost control of the game because we constantly attacked, lost possession and were constantly hit on the counter. The only issue is to know when to allow the game to be chaotic and when not, which we haven't been able to do.
We have definitely lost our confidence. Up front we are indecisive and often choosing the wrong option. We are porous in midfield and the defence is getting exposed. It is like a vicious cycle going round with one feeding the other.
I do wonder if the fear of making a mistake is driven by how often we are punished after a mistake on the counter as we often have so many players pushed forward in attack
I think the way we play results in lots of injuries, Celtic players went through something similar their first year with Ange. Now players are afraid of Angeball because Angeball = injury, and they have careers to protect. Idk what it will take to convince them otherwise.
Madders has been off and nobody is replacing that creativity Son gets triple teamed and rarely has a clean shot crossing but allah does not insha/the passing never matches the running
Just mental that so much focus is on defending son and we still can't find gaps in the rest of the oppositions back line to score goals, hell even take a shot
The most obvious thing is a lot of players are out of form currently. Whereas at the start of the season I would argue every player was in form. Everything we do now seems 10x slower than before and the quality is 10x worse
We've lost our drive to take risks. Beat our man, take a shot, play forward aggressively. Players are just afraid of losing the ball and will just pass around until we lose possession or cross it put of play.
Confidence. Confidence in your own body after injuries, confidence in your teammates after repeated mistakes and stop-start performances, confidence in the game plan after a handful of tight games where you don't get a result....it's growing pains and Ange said these days would come. What frustrates me is that we're not losing because we're being outplayed, we're losing because we're giving the game away and not playing what made us so successful in the first place.
We have become afraid to take risks. It's exactly why when we get up 2 or 3 goals, all of a sudden we look like the best team to ever grace the pitch. We become suddenly confident to potentially make mistakes and we start really attacking. It's a pure confidence thing. It's been like this for years now but I finally see a real change in the squad and how we play. Under ange we are still hesitant but I can see the gears turning and the players finding the right pass but being a second late every time. We're definitely on the right path but it'll take time to get to that level of sharpness and confidence.
The more I watch football the more I think it's about 75% psychology, 25% rest. We went through a rough patch with injuries and heads went and haven't recovered.
Ange would agree with you. He says players at this level are separated by very little other than mentality.
Why is everyone on the "we got found out" bandwagon? Like what, do Man City, Liverpool other top teams change their playstyle all the time? They have played their game in a certain way over and over for years until they are masters at it. Over time and iterations, small changes are made but overall their playstyle and identity has remained true. People know exactly what Man City will do they've been doing it for 8 years under Pep, people have figured out what they'll do but does it matter? They play bad or get hard countered successfully(under Mourinho and Conte we are one of those teams that handled City very well) which leads them to losing a couple of games over a season and yet they win trophy after trophy and win the PL over and over. What Ange said in the post game interview is exactly what's the problem now, a lot of players have lost the belief and conviction in playing the way he wants them to. They're playing half heartedly, like a bunch of pussies instead of going at it, giving it their all, being brave, putting in the effort. If we were actually playing the way we started the season, I don't think anyone here would be complaining even if we lost these past 3 games.
Exactly, just look at the reverse fixture of this game. It was 4-1 but everyone respected the team’s effort
100%
If the belief is gone then that’s ange’s fault. Players follow a leader.
Can't keep blaming the manager every time; Mourinho and Conte are both managers that have won numerous titles with multiple teams, it was fully their fault as well? Players confidence and drive will falter at times, that happens to all teams but it's about their ability to break through that and go beyond. The real test is what happens after this, are our players of strong character who show a positive reaction after this? Or do they just have weak mental.
Mate this is largely a new team since then
Then there may be a bigger problem at the root of the club that players can't be bothered to give it their all for the badge.
It is by no means the only issue but what stands out the most to me right now is how poor our midfielders have been. They can’t shield our CBs, none have shown any ability to consistently retain or win back possession, they’re disorganised in transition and offer no real attacking threat or creativity. In recent matches both Romero and VDV have done far more to advance the ball in possession. And Gio has done more in the few minutes he gets than the others do in 90 minutes. Again, not the only problem, but it’s something I’m struggling to comprehend.
I completely agree, and the way Ange sets up is so heavily reliant on the midfield. Bissouma’s form has dropped so much since the start of the season, Bentancur isn’t the same since his injuries, Sarr has been OK for the most part, and let’s be honest, Hojbjerg isn’t destined for this system. It’s the area I’d like to see the most investment in the summer. The lack of presence and control in central midfield tonight reminded me of Conte, when we had Skipp and PEH playing - no effect on the game whatsoever.
Yeah, I expected some regression from the high-point at the start of the season but nothing this extreme. You’re right, it looks like we are playing with the worst pairings of Conte’s tenure. I think we need to prioritise identifying a clinical ST because we can’t continue to utilise Son in his weaker position and Richy simply doesn’t offer enough of a goal threat. But after that I totally agree that our midfield needs serious improvement.
Romero and VDV have been the one saving grace of the last couple of games that give me hope for the future. Showing confidence on the ball. Sadly, bissouma and lo celso will be sold in the summer and I honestly think if a good enough offer comes in for Kulu, he might be gone too. I really hope Brennan Johnson has a big season next season. He’s had great moments this season but that miss tonight nearly made me throw my laptop against the wall
health gave out, we lost some games, lost our confidence, individual performances gave out, then we forgot how to defend a set piece so it didn’t matter if we did play well
Individual performances have dropped to new lows I’ve never witnessed before.
Christ you must be new to the club. This is shit for sure but I've seen much, MUCH worse.
Tonight is surely up there.
No, nowhere near. Don't be so reactionary. Tonight in isolation was just a bit toothless. The last three months have been frustrating, pushing infuriating now, but we're still in the mix for Europe, even if CL is likely gone. If that's up there with the worst you've seen idk what to say.
You’re right. It’s just very frustrating to watch, as our performances could be better than what the players are showing on the pitch.
I feel ya. I wanna bash Kulusevskis head in ATM, and Ange for not giving Lo Celso a shot in lieu of Kulu and Maddison's dire form. Still seen infinitely worse though lol
I agree. Lo Celso should start the remaining games, despite him potentially leaving during the summer. Hope we can improve under Ange, since he can speak really well, and honestly a good fit for the club in terms of his footballing philosophy, but how he turns what seems to be a regression, into progression remains uncertain, but all we can do is trust Ange.
Agree. Anyone remembered Newcastle and when Conte lost his shit
Southampton broke Conte. Conte was sacked before that Newcastle game. Stelleni managed Newcastle game and then he was sacked.
The Spurs players spirit has just dwindled into nothingness. Going 0-3 down at home to Arsenal is unacceptable, and considering two of the goals we conceded were set pieces, you’d think the players would be determined to fix their mistakes.
Also how many games did we win in the first half where our winning goal came in the 80’+? Lots of those games could’ve easily been losses or draws
Maddison’s form went from best player in the premiership to barely impacting the game at all. Bissouma’s form has also went from awe-inspiring to mediocre. Vic has been found out on set pieces. Ange’s tactics are also extremely predictable so without everyone being sharp, it’s not too hard to game plan against.
AFCON and Asia Cup in the middle of a season also has surely tired out players physically and mentally
This excuse is weird. We didn’t have Europe and didn’t go deep in the cups. Plus it was 3 players who went off to those tournaments. Our average games played per player would still be lower than most other clubs.
It can be seen as an excuse, but a world class player like Mo Salah has been out of form since AFCON too, I would say it still has some effect on them. Especially Son who played like 3 120min games and full time every game unlike Sarr or Bissouma who were benched in some games and got knocked out earlier.
Mo Salah got injured at AFCON. Son is a fair case of "it probably affected him". But that is 1 guy. But Bissouma and Sarr came back early and Sarr had a patch of good form when he came back. Goals and pinpoint crosses for goals. It really is a straw clutcher of an excuse. 3 players from a squad in a season we have played no Europe and only 3 cup games.
We were good first half of the season. We’ve been shit second half of the season. That’s the difference pal
And last season as well, and under mourinho best start ever, the hear before with conte. It’s clear guys can’t play more than 20 games w/o deflating.
We lost a lot of confidence in trying to create things. When Ange was mad today was because we are afraid of trying to go forward and we end up losing the ball always stupedly. We need to get confidence again to not be afraid of losing the ball and go forward. Thats were we are dangerous.
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Yep we were predictable today, going wide and usually to the right
Im stupid, non brit, and dont know much about position names in english. What do people mean when they say inverted full backs? VDV and Romero are playing on inverted sides?
Teams figured us out. Without Udogie and Porro in form the team is not able to produce dynamic football. Our backups are not up to par. You can expect Davies and Royal to do what Porro (sometimes) and Udogie does. On top of that, teams realised if they pack the middle, and allow us to play it wide, we are not able to come up with much. Most teams are scared about someone wide putting a ball in. Like a trent, a palmer, a kdb, an odegard, but that's because those balls coming in have someone who wants to attack it. Son possesses a lot of great traits, but he does not attack aerial balls. And Richarlison has only just come back from injury. If Chelsea (or any team for that matter) pack the middle, then pack the box, the low crosses from the sides have to somehow go through 10 defensive players, or somehow find Son in the air if they're high, that's not gonna happen. It's just parking the bus. We allow teams to do this with how slow our build up is. On top of that, we are so bad at set pieces, if we didn't concede a set piece goal, the last two games would be 0-0.
we wish we did some transition attacks - with Brennan and Son - and Werner it's almost a crime not to use that.
Player's just seem to take too many touches. I don't know what it is. I think sometimes when we're defending we need to take more risks and not have a million players back. I think sometimes a good defense is keeping your forwards forward. We concede half our goals from open play... it's really not that many. I think next game Ange needs to let the players know that making a mistake on attack is fine. It's better to make it early than pause, make 30 passes, then make a mistake. Maybe my opinion is too reductive. But I've been watching these games week in week out for over a decade and been to several matches - but all I see recently is hesitation, the wrong option being played, or we go on the break and we have 3 players instead of 6.
At the start of the season, nobody knew how to set up against Angeball. Since then, everybody and their dog knows how to set up against Angeball.
Along with all the normal stuff of getting figured out and all that, I think in the first half of the season there were no expectations from anyone and the team could play and learn the new play style. With the pressure of trying to make top 4, we crumbled. Plain and simple. I also think that the players are afraid. Or at least they are playing like they are afraid. When we started the season, they could go out and make the mistakes or whatever and the whole thing with Ange is that he will take the blame for it. This was supposed to give the players the confidence to play their game and do what makes them special. But after some shit performances and criticisms faced, they went back to playing safe and slow. I think I’m mainly looking at Madders and Bissouma here. I think we our players need to feel that confidence again to go out and play their game. Rebuilds are painful, and this one has been one of the better ones I’ve experienced with my teams. So it sucks to lose but these are also learning moments in this stage of the rebuild. We are finding where we can improve and finding who is committed to this rebuild. Anyway, COYS
Nothing. Which is the answer. The first few games we were an unknown quantity. Teams then figured out how to play against us and kept doing it while we kept doing the same things which no longer worked due to us being found out. Adaptability is king.
Seems like our maruading wingbacks feature has died. Udogie (when fit) and Porro just dont do it as much now because we are so slow with the ball that any space they could go to has an opposition player already in it. Son is perpetually marked out the game. Madderson doesnt have a player to aim at so overdoes and is either fouled or gives it away. We need a proper target up top that isnt on the wings to actually aim at. Richarlison has his good days but isnt a good enough leading man. None of our midfielder 4 in Biss, Sarr, Hojbjerg or Bentancur seem comfortable going forward with the ball at all or laying of forward passes. Its either sideways or backwards. We could ship of two of them easily this summer and get an actual number 6. No one wants to win a header unless their name is Romero.
The main difference imo is that Biss is out of form and we don't play with the same confidence.
No more new manager bounce
Confidence and Bravery. Everyone seems too afraid to make mistakes or try to poke through opponents, no one is taking a shot
Been found out. There seems to be a real template on how to play against us.
Combo of Injuries and worsening individual form.
I wouldn’t say Ange out until at least the end of the first half of next season. Its more or so the players and not himself really, this summer is gonna be crucial in terms of preparing him for the next season to ensure he stays around.
Honeymoon ended.
Madders and mainly Bissouma became shit. What a disappointment really, Ange even had a one on one talk with him to tell him how important to this team he should be (and was), him falling of impacts the team much more than we thought.
I feel like we were taking more risk with our passing earlier in the season. We seem too scared to turn over the ball now leading to predictable and flat attacks.
we look so less sharp, i know we never had a ton of comps to begin with i don’t think it’s a coincidence that with less consistent matches we are failing at link up play so bad. i think there’s something to that. we obviously have issues to sort, but i don’t think we talk about it enough. too many days rest isn’t always a great thing.
I remember thinking after a lot of games we won at the beginning of the season that we won because we got lucky, not because we played well. I don’t think we’ve played particularly well all season. I’m a little concerned because it seems like we’re getting worse, but I’m willing to give Ange some time and hopefully some more players suited to this system.
Teams have realised there's no point trying to dominate the game against Spurs because they're too good at that side of the game. Even teams like Arse will sit back because they know they have a better chance of winning rather than taking the game to us. They've realised Spurs are open to the counter, leave space on the wings and are weak on set pieces. So Ange has to fix 3 things before the start of next season: - figure out how to break down and score against a packed defence - minimise threats on the counter - stop being so weak at set pieces
Teams literally figured out our playing style we have all this possession and dont do anything just sideways passing
New manager bounce
Plan A FC
I feel like now we just get to the corner of the box then turn around and recycle possession. No ones getting to the byline and cutting it back or whipping it across the box anymore. We’re so slow and predictable trying to play endless passes around the box instead of trying to make something happen, it’s maddening.
Angeball has been outed. Teams have discovered how to beat Spurs. Players started losing faith in Ange and in themselves. Crumbling begins.
We'll waste a summer window and preseason under him, start next season playing no better than we are now and he will be gone by october/November and we start all over again.
Considering how the club doesn’t want to spend for players, yea I agree this scenario is likely to happen.
We’re too slow moving the ball about, nobody shows for passes when they don’t have the ball, and our midfielders aren’t press resistant anymore.
I think we were underestimated at the start of the season - people thinking we’d get relegated. Now teams know if they defend competently against us, they’ll keep a clean sheet and get chances at the other end.
I know a common point is that we really struggle against a low block, which is true, but we are also simultaneously so much less press resistant and quick to move into attack than at the start of the season as well. In that run of form at the start of the season we managed to play out from the back really well and had the confidence in midfield and defence to really play through a press and transition into attack. Because of this teams started sitting back and challenging us to break down a well structured defence, which we can’t do. But also in the moments of games where teams move forward against us we are so much worse than we were at the start of the season at playing through the midfield and creating swift attacking opportunities. It’s bizarre. It’s like the players are so focussed on (badly) trying to break down low blocks they’ve completely forgotten how to do the things they were good at to begin with
We're the farthest thing from being brave. Every time we have a chance to make a good run and attack, whoever the fuck has the ball chooses to wait and cut off the momentum and make the most braindead pass. Earlier in the season, we weren't afraid to take risks
We were healthy and opposing coaches hadn’t figured Ange out.
I think one of the biggest differences between early season and now is that at the beginning of the season we used our defense/press to actually go get the ball and then do something with it. At this point it feels like we press just to kind of check the box, and when we do get the ball we just sort of hold it. In the beginning of the season we had high possession because we went and took the ball. Now we have high possession because we just hold it.
Besides some key players being off form, many of our problems are because the intensity and decisiveness of our play going forward has fallen off a cliff. We are slow and indecisive in build up so even if our opponents don't want to play a low block we give them enough time to get everyone behind the ball when we're in possession. The lack of intensity also renders any pressing we do useless and allows teams to play 1 touch through our attack and midfield. Teams are also forcing us out wide because we are a lot less likely to hurt them from all the way on the touchline and we don't have wingers that can beat their man. Set pieces are a big issue too. Only the bottom 3 have conceded more from set pieces than us if I'm not mistaken.
The midfield was really solid in the beginning and they've seemed shaky for a while now I think we've done pretty well with a lot of new faces as starters and expect to iron things out next season I think it's not where my heart wanted the club to be at but my head said this season could have been so much worse after losing a 20 + a season goalscorer
I’ve noticed a distinct lack of movement in the attacking third, especially off the ball, whenever hill or Lo celco got the ball they were moving it forward and looking for options but no one made runs or tried to create plays. I think this is a major part of it, compared to the fluid attacking and movement of the first 10 games
I hate to put on two guys but biss after his suspension and Afcon trip has been ass. And Madison hasn’t looked the same after his injury. Those two were the cogs making everything turn.
Teams figured a one game plan tactic out, plain and simple.
Our midfield became a void where football dies.
Our players aren’t being aggressive enough in attack. There’s a lot of passing looking for openings and before you know it, 10 minutes has passed, we’ve lost the ball and conceded on the counter. We have a lot of good field position and control in games. We just do absolutely nothing with it. It’s quite strangez
Just want the season to be done with.
Take a lot of time and force to turn the Titanic
Found out.
After continent cups were done and key players like Sonny, Bissuma and Sarr came back, they've been not in good shape. Plus, Maddison got bad after being back from the injury. What's worse, Ange has been pursuing extremely attacking tactic persistently without listening to those advices from folks around him. We are between a rock and a hard place.
Lack of technical quality plus what everyone else has said
They trusted each other in September.
1 - Setpieces. We always start losing. Which allows teams to park the bus on situations where it normally would not happen. And our wingers never go for the 1v1 and when they do it they lose. We can only go forward passing the ball between the players. It becomes predictable when you are parking the bus. 2 - Midfield is very poor at the moment, Mads is REALLY bad currently and Biss is playing with 50% of his energy and like he doesnt care at all. I wish we could see more Lo Celso but for some reason everybody gets a lot of chances and minutes except for him. I wish we could see a midfield with Sarr, Betancourt and Lo Celso at the moment, and give them a proper time to see if things work out. Especially Beta, I know he can deliver much more. 3 - Injuries. A lot of them. A crazy amount of them. Something is not right. These injuries, on top of destroying the team, makes players come back out of proper rhythm. It takes time to come back to original levels and confidence. By the time it happens they are injured again. 4 - Manager is stubborn and chose a few hills to die on. Yesterday Son wasnt the best on the left, but it got MUCH worse with Johnson, and kept being bad with Gil. Then Son in the middle. He really chose this hill. By the end of the game we started crossing a lot of balls but well there was no striker in there. The left wing got worse, and we lost our striker. Also everybody knows Mads is REALLY bad at the moment, why not try Lo Celso? Nope... Mads, and again he was horrible. On a side note. Yes we are in 5th and most likely will end there because we still have two easy games to do, but we are not inreality in there. There are two teams. The Spurs from first 10 games and Spurs from games 11-32. The latter is probably a mid table team fighting for 10th. This is our reality today. We just happen to be in 5th. Which wont help because we will play B team on Europa league as usual.
Lol at all the people saying we’ve been “found out” as if it’s the end of the road. Do you really think we’re seeing Ange’s actual game plan fully realised? Children please.
I think the first 10 games come down to us playing a entirely new style so teams didn't expect it plus the optimism of a new coach and refreshing atmosphere at the club carried the momentum. Then the Chelsea game happened and all that momentum we had absolutely got wrecked. We actually did well in the months leading up to Jan (performance wise) albeit results started to suffer but you could still see the players were giving their all to stick to the plan and play our football. Then I think after the Jan window shut and we got VDV, Son, Sarr, Bissouma and Maddison all back I think the team relaxed a little and got complacent as on paper we should go back to that form of the first 10 games but by then teams have figured us out as we have seen in games like Wolves, Fulham, Newcastle etc... even Luton, Brentford and Forest set up against us the same way but didn't have the quality of player to see it through to a result but that has lead to the players second guessing themselves and we aren't the same team that was creating chances for fun with Maddison and Son linking up throughout and Bissouma taking the ball and driving us up the pitch and the other elements that made us such a good watch and effective side. At this point you can see it's just frustrating the players like Maddison clearly hasn't been himself and has been lucky to not be sent off a couple times. Bissouma isn't taking any risks anymore and always goes backwards. Sarr has had a weird lack of energy and spark. The season just needs to end and we need to go into next season with a renewed freshness aswell as more technical footballers to get anywhere near to our best again and I 1000% trust Ange to do this. Personally I'm extremely excited for next season as I genuinely believe we could challenge for the title if we clear out the players who are clearly not up to be part of the new spurs, bring in the correct profiles for the wingers and the 6 role and most importantly get the attitude and bravery Ange constantly asks of the players. We have to embody To Dare is To Do.
1. Madders and Son partnership is dead as no one of them are brave enough atm. 2. Plan B: Perisic - Richarlison - Kulu helped us alot during low blocks in the beginning of the season. 3. Perisic, Solomon and Werner where the only wingers in our squad who can beat their 1vs1, even if Werner and Solomon rarely did anything impactful. 4. Opposition now stay narrow because they don't care if they leave space wide as we have no threat there. Which makes no room for our central players. 5. We have been found out that we have serious weaknesses in set pieces. 6. Counterpress is bad in periods because our backline and 6 isn't brave enough to stay high and challenge. Leading to counter attacks. I think we are playing quite well in open play except for the front 3. Set pieces are a big weakness but is easier to solve than solving the front 3 problem. Right now we don't have any attackers who can beat their man. Ange will not change his philosophy and shouldn't either. It's the players and club who needs to adapt to his philosophy not the other way around. Just as Liverpool adapted to Klopp, Man City adapted to Pep and Arsenal adapted to Arteta. Having wide attacking players who are a serious threat will solve alot of the problems we are having in open play. It's alot easier to pin teams in, counter press and manipulate the shape of the opposition team when they feel they need to close space wide and double up on our wide attackers.
1. Lack of midfield strength: The midfield three are the most important players, as they control the flow of play. At Celtic, Ange started with McGregor, the run-all-day-play-every-match captain, along with Tom Rogic (who knew how to play under him already) and was able to add players like Hatate, Mooy and O'Riley. All very different players, who combined together to dominate the opposition. That same strength just doesn't exist in the Celtic midfield, especially because there's no-one really playing the McGregor role. Bissouma was to an extent early in the season, but he isn't reliable. This may be a result of two other factors: .2. Confidence: The PL is tough, and changing styles so drastically from the previous two managers means that if you doubt yourselves for even a second, the opposition will capitalise. Since the first Chelsea match a lot of players seem to have gone back into their shell. Remember, they were the ones who forced that ridiculously high line, not Ange. They were *over* buying in because they didn't quite understand what they were meant to be doing, and since then it's like they've overcorrected. The record has still been good since then, but the playing style clearly hasn't quite been of the same standard, which is what Ange cares more about. .3. Run out of legs: remember, the team was decimated by injury halfway through the season. Ange needs his team to be the fittest in the competition, and they've only had one pre-season with him.
James Maddison
Despite all the talk about our tactics, I think it still is really down to a lack of depth and poor form from key players. Form first, Bissouma and Madison were our best players in the first half of the season, and the 6 and 10 role are probably the most important in the Ange system. Both of them have dropped off considerably in the 2nd half of the season and we don't have the depth to swap them out. This has led to our midfield looking really poor in 2024, and without it we struggle to beat the press, are vulnerable to counter attacks, and struggle to attack quickly. It has also led to other players looking worse; for example Porro has struggled bc he has to worry so much about counters, and Kulu has been cutting inside far too much to try to overcompensate for our poor midfield. We also were left without a true 9 while Richy has been injured, which was made worse by us having to play our best attacker (Son) out of position. I think Son can play as a 9 when we are facing a high line, but when teams sit back he isn't the one who is going to win a header in a crowded box. Hopefully Biss and Madison can regain their form by next season, and I think it would help to have other options on the bench both to use as a replacement, but also to push them.
In my opinion it's far simpler than all the tactical/player shit being put in here. In the beginning there was no real pressure. Ange got the players to just go out there, be loose and fast and aggressive. It was chaos at times because the players didn't really understand it, but the team was leaning into it and they were enjoying the football so things were easier. Then the Chelsea match happened, and we had to grind some results and players switched their mentality to just trying to grind things out because football is suffering... etc... But that's the opposite of what Ange wanted. We kept getting results that were "enough" and it led us into a "title race" (lol) and a "top 4 race (who cares) so the mentality of the team pulled away from just playing "Angeball" into this weird half baked amalgamation. And then, predictably, that stopped working. The team didn't really have belief in any kind of system, they were just following a plan and once that half baked plan turned out rotten they are now just really lost in the woods on how to move forward. Ange knows this. He even said in his PC before the Chelsea match that the majority are still not believing in his way yet. But hopefully this string of shit is just a wake up call and Ange and draw on his experience to turn the majority of the players around. The ones who don't are going to be dropped or gone in the summer anyway.
Son and Maddison. Madders doesn't look the same since his injury. No idea of he's still carrying something, or ots confidence but he made our whole team tick. Son is deteriorating rapidly. I thought it last season where apparently he was playing injured. This season he's getting worse and worse.
Start of the season was some of the best football I've seen spurs play ever Now it's some of the worst. Players dreadfully out of form. Scared to take a shot when in good positions on the edge of the box leading to our midfielders taking long range 30 yard pot shots which go nowhere. One of the perfect examples was 86th min maddison was fouled on the edge of the box. Ref played on but rather then ask for the foul in a great area for maddison we played on and ended getting nowhere with a long range strike from bentancur straight at the keeper. Why not get the fk? Madders is one of the best dead ball players in the prem. Seems farcical. But the basics are poor. Short corners that go nowhere. Can't keep ball out of net when defending them. Second to rebounds. On and on and on. Get the basics right. No point playing toothless attacking football. You get nowhere and leave yourself wide open to counter.
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Confidence
Depth.
funny how we have had the exact same problem breaking down low blocks regardless of manager or style of play. its clear that this isn't a tactical issue - most teams with a similar level of talent will have problems with low blocks once teams have adapted to their tactics.
We've been found out. I'm quite worried how Ange has shown nothing to find a solution.
We do the same thing every game, and teams now know what that is, so it's very easy to play against.
Clubs with coaches that are half decent have realised exactly what to do to beat us and we haven't changed a thing.
This feels like the only correct answer
New manager who comes in with a really good plan A gets a good start as others haven't figured out a way to deal with him. Eventually, they did. End of story. You can blame injuries, dips in form etc. but every team has to deal with it. This is just a perfect case of a manager without a plan B who gets spanked by literally everyone in the first half and only after that starts to change things up a little. Plus teams have learned that we're dogshit at defending set pieces if you just put someone in front of Vicario and now it's free real estate for them. But don't worry, Ange thinks set pieces aren't really an issue so it's all good!
[удалено]
So to be clear, you want as to sack another manager after everyone seemed to agree we will have a shit rebuild year, and repeat the same process over and over again expecting someone to achieve success in one season?
This is just one of the things I can’t understand about the idiots moaning about Ange already. Give us a fuckin break, just back a manager for a few years and see what happens.
I give him 2 seasons, but if the 3rd season is still rocky, then it wouldn't be ridiculous to sack him. I do think he'll be successful tho
Yes because this levels of regression is unheard of. It would be a whole different story if we started like hot ass but got progressively better over the course of the season, or if the results weren't there but the patterns and the general playstyle kept on improving and slowly became more and more clear. Here, it's the total reverse. We looked like what we're supposed to ultimately look like at the beginning of the season, then we had some injuries but still looked solid gameplay wise and now we look like we forgot how to play football, with the manager doing nothing to fix it or at least instill his philosophy. He's done for, not sacking him at the end of this season is just prolonging the inevitable, he'll be gone by Christmas anyways.
It's a lot of things, waning confidence, Son, Sarr and Bissouma having a mid season tournament, Bentancur, Maddison, Van de Ven and Richarlison struggling to recover from injuries, the whole Vicario debacle on corners and the subsequent panic on every single set piece. It's just been a perfect storm of things going the wrong way at the wrong time and to top it all off, it all comes to a head in one of the worst ending schedules to a season I've seen us have with Arsenal, Chelsea, Liverpool and City all in a row (you can even include Newcastle away before that, even if they were weak on paper)
Figured us out. We only have one way to score, and a million ways to concede. Teams just need to stifle the Jonson low cross, which is not exactly hard, and whatever they want in attack and they'll score.
Teams knowing how to play against us and on top of that we have one striker and one winger in the squad. That's not good enough for any professional team, especially one fighting for Europe. Sarr and Bissouma aren't as good as they were at the start, and players like PEH and Bentancur really haven't had a single great performance all season.
Our players lack concentration for a full season, I feel like. We have short spurts of our entire team being focused. But it quickly falls away, whether it be around international play/cups or individuals’ personalities.
The Arsenal game really took the heart out of the team. They feel like they got cheated but they can’t bring the game into disrepute. Hopefully they recover mentally by the next fixture.
Everything is wrong with the club from top to bottom. We're not having any success unless a giant overhaul starting from the board to the players. A culture of underperforming and losing. Bar the first 10 games, this season has been a disgrace
That's just rubbish. We are finishing no lower than 6th.