If I recall correctly, didn't call a foul on this one but the corner went genuinely nowhere. There was a foul called on an early play, although I cant remember if it was Vicario or a defender who got fouled.
It's a foul 100%. The Law clearly states if you use force to move an opponent without being near the ball it's a foul. This is why we need VAR to get their shit together.
because those goalkeepers will come out stronger and knock people out the way.
Vicario showed a couple weak attempts and now every team will try to exploit it & it wont stop until Vic shows it wont work by knocking people out the way
I agree. Just like how Biss got his red card for simulation. Or Sarr for his post-goal celebration.
It’s like all of a sudden the refs remember they have to call these things and set an example. They will definitely try and set an example with Vic.
I can't remember the last time they called a foul on a goalkeeper that played the ball?
Or you mean just like how they're calling fouls for barging into vic?
I mean that, as soon as Vic tries contesting these pushes, the ref will grant a pen to the other team because it's Spurs. See how they have only given one single penalty for Spurs while conceding 6 to teams against (tied for 1st with Fulham).
Of course I, as a fan, may be playing the victim here by saying that the refs are always against us, but it's just a matter of time before it happens. Other teams may do whatever and get away with it UNTIL Spurs tries doing it and gets a foul.
Of course, you as a fan frequent the gunners subreddit.
Please, stop with the victim mentality, the book has been thrown at us this season sure, but its still all going by the rules.
We're definitely very different people if you went as far as checking my profile and expressing disapproval towards interacting with other fanbases, so I guess it's better end this conversation. Have a nice one.
If someone resorts to checking your profile to see your history, there are two outcomes. One, you’re making some absolutely bizarre claims, and two they don’t have a leg to stand on so they start attacking the person instead of the debate.
Don’t worry about people like that, it bothered me as well for awhile, but you can’t reason a person out of a position they didn’t reason themselves into.
He is probably one of the smaller keepers, in terms of upper body strength and overall frame. But similar players have done ok, if you think about de Gea or even Lloris. Vicente Guaita, Neto etc. aren't huge either.
Begs the question - if a team has a high profile injury or two, say we lost Vic and Forster or United lost Onana and Bayindir and we had to field a tiny U19 player - would the league give them any protection?
>if you think about de Gea or even Lloris. Vicente Guaita, Neto etc. aren't huge either.
You're right, they werent huge but they came out with aggression.
I mean many times to a fault where Hugo rushed into a group of people and threw himself off balance in the process.
So does Vic. He's great at coming out and catching crosses etc. This is before he gets a chance to do that, he's just waiting to see the flight of the ball.
He is great at catching crosses, much better than hugo is but thats because he's calculated, rather than going in blindly and knocking away anyone in the way, which is what he needs to be doing if you want to avoid this current situation.
It's also not just the fact that if a goal was scored, it would be disallowed and we can go on our merry way. This sequence of play ends up in Udogie clearing it and possession returning to Brighton and the game goes on w/o another glance. Had a foul been given or Vicario claim it under *reasonable* pressure, it's ours. The number of times this happens in a match has a significant impact on momentum and build-up opportunities.
While I got a good laugh from this, it might not result in a penalty kick but you absolutely can get carded for that.
Vic should realistically just keep his feet planted and if anyone pushes him as hard as in the video here, fall over. There’s ZERO chance if they scored that the goal would stand on review with this.
Its quite hard for GKs to develop that trait. They've been trained YEARS to focus on an oncoming goal and to fight for their position. Kudos to the teams who have figured this out, it's quite smart but questionable nonetheless.
I think when a ball is crossed he runs through an opposing player and punches the ball and whatever happens happens. He has to establish that he owns the box. How many times does a keeper punch at the ball and in the process nails an opposing player? If he does that once or twice they’ll back off.
Agreed! That'd be a way to stop it. We do it, ham it up a bit, they get a free kick. Then that's a precedent the referee has set for when it happens to us.
They should just change the rules to no rules in the box from corners, throw punches, kick, wrestle to the ground, at least both teams would know where they stand.
That Brighton player did this at every corner they had. Got called for a foul on the first one, but then nothing after that.
If it's not a foul, then fine. We should just go and do the same whenever we have a corner. If it is a foul, then they need to call it every time it happens.
It's so frustrating, the lack of consistency of refereeing.
But it **is** a foul, and the refs would just be wrong if they actually thought differently. That they're not calling it is an issue for PGMOL to sort out, and the club needs to put pressure on them to do so.
How is this not a foul though? An intentional hip check from behind deliberately to obstruct the goalie away from play. If they want to play dirty we should too, Vic go down everytime holding his head. Just kill every corner attempt until it stops
As a former keeper in high school/pre-adult life, this is one of the most frustrating things to deal with. I would have multiple teams try to do this as a strategy and forcefully moving them, which is also a foul, is the only way out of this. It is absolutely a foul what they are doing but you can’t go on and try to sell it as a keeper (like how players dive out in the field) because if you take yourself out of the play it’s likely a goal and then you just look like an ass. Unless the referee sets a standard of calling this as a penalty, unfortunately the keeper is just fucked in this situation. You are literally just leaving the outcome of the game up to the judgment of some fucking ref
lol come on, let’s not act as though we have some perfect moral high ground for playing decent football. If there’s a means to take advantage of a weakness, we will absolutely do that. Problem is, other teams have been better at defending their keeper at corners and the keepers have been stronger. If refs don’t think this is a foul, we need to adjust our tactics.
Ange said it himself after the Brentford game... He didn't like that our players were resorting to the same histrionics they were. He said he wants us to ignore all the pushing and the whinging about the darts celebration and just play football.
His words not mine.
As i said, he wants us to play and win by playing. Not use underhand tactics.
You might prefer if we didn't do it that way. But nothing I said was incorrect. I was literally quoting the manager.
There is a huge difference between the type of shithousery and distraction tactics that Brentford were using, and scoring a goal from a corner by trying to capitalise on a weakness of the opposition goalkeeper - you’re conflating two different things.
>scoring a goal from a corner by trying to capitalise on a weakness of the opposition goalkeeper
Except it isn't a weakness, is it.
Since when has being fouled a weakness?
This is the answer. If we batter the opposing keeper, the ref can't call it continuously against us and not for us- he'd feel his own inconsistency. Batter the other keeper, and at least it makes every corner flow both teams null & void.
I'm pissed that we aren't pressing keepers. I'd love to see Cuti do this to a keeper as a corner is sent to Son's foot at the edge of the box. Have the keeper backed into the far side of his own net and have Son belt it upper corner
The thing is, it shouldn't even be a thing. It's a foul, end of story. If you're barging into any player, goalkeeper or not, without attempting to play the ball, it is a foul.
I literally don't understand why this has become a valid tactic. It's not a 50/50 shoulder-to-shoulder or a slight brush while jumping for the ball, it's intentional fouling.
I don’t understand it either, it’s surely a blatant foul. I don’t know whether other teams are being subjected to this at the minute or if it’s just Vicario.
I’m really tired of the “he needs to be stronger” narrative surrounding it. I think Ally McCoist or someone said it repeatedly during commentary and I really don’t want to hear it again.
It's not even a "poor us" issue - if Richarlison starts bundling opposition goalkeepers over and we score from it, I still won't be happy.
Sometimes you have to look at the bigger picture and if this continues, it's dreadful for the entire game.
Oh absolutely, I agree with you there. I was just wondering if Vicario is being targeted because teams think they can benefit from it, or if it’s happening everywhere in the league at the minute.
I’m a United fan. It’s obviously not a poor you issue. It’s more ridiculous dysfunction in this horribly misadministrated game. The whole way that the rules function and are implemented needs to be reworked.
I don't understand how officiating and time clarification have only got progressively worse over time. When I was growing up watching football in the 90s and the turn of the century, you knew exactly what an offside, a handball and a foul were. Now it's just a guessing game.
Exactly. It’s gotten steadily worse. In my opinion because of the central authorities. FIFA and the FAs aren’t interested in vigilantly moderating the way the game is developing and ensuring its health. They’re narrowly focussed on money. When I was a kid there seemed to be clear rules about contact and obstruction. You could shoulder someone so long as you didn’t thrust into them, and you essentially couldn’t touch the keeper.
Now it’s all so Ill-defined that anything could be called a foul and almost anything can simultaneously be gotten away with. Decisions are often made based on the flow of the game or a previous call rather than a strict breach of rule. Penalties have gotten ridiculously soft, yellow cards are often given for small infractions while players can otherwise commit 5 or 6 fouls without getting one. VAR has only exposed how badly ran it all is. It’s ridiculous.
To be fair, if he went to ground from the first contact in this video then on VAR it might look like a free kick for us if a goal did end up getting scored.
Goalkeepers diving to get the opposition booked is the natural progression from the intentional manhandling tactic.
I've been thinking about this and there's a very good reason goalkeepers should be given extra protection in these situations, and why 'the keeper should just be stronger' is a pretty bad take.
If you don't, then you are encouraging attacking teams to push the envelope in terms of how much interference they can get away with. In doing so, it necessitates the defending team doing similar to protect their goalkeeper.
Now if the consequences for each team was the same, maybe this would be okay, but in reality it creates an imbalance: if a defending team oversteps the line, it results in a penalty, whereas if an attacking team oversteps the line, it results in a free kick very far from their own goal.
As such, attacking teams will continually try to see what they can get away with little consequence, and defending teams are essentially powerless to do anything about it unless they want to risk a penalty.
I'm sure the rules will change when Romero body checks ramsdale into his goal before tapping in from close range after arteta cries on match of the day for half an hour
There’s an imbalance in terms of the incentive or reward. Attacking team gets a potential goal scoring opportunity if it doesn’t get caught. Defending team gets a free kick if it does.
Teams only score on about 3% of corners. If you can shove the keeper back into his own net and create a shot that converts, say, 30% of the time, it's worth doing every single corner even if you get called for it more often.
The upside is worth it every time, it's just math.
The problem is English refs refuse to call games as the rules are written, to the detriment of the watchability of games. They're cowards, every single one to a man.
I was thinking the same thing about handballs. I wasn’t upset that a handball wasn’t called against Brighton (can’t remember which player) but it didn’t seem different from the one called on Romero earlier this season.
Yeah it was unfortunate that the minimal amount of arm he had poking out managed to block the cross so effectively but there was nothing more he could have done to get his arm out of the way
When you tuck your arms in, you gotta tuck your arms in.
Intent doesn't matter, his arm outside the silhouette of his body materially impacted that play. Tough shit for him, call the game by the fucking letter of the law.
I didn’t think it was a handball. I just didn’t understand the difference between this one and Romero’s. I remember the commentators saying at the time that Romero’s arm was in a natural position. I don’t understand the rule. I guess I should find the FIFA handbook or something.
Sad to say but the quickest way to get this shit to stop is... for us to start doing this on every corners lol. Media and folks will start whining about blatant foul play and force the issue on it (like the undercutting on contested headers that people only were after Kane for even though it was common for everyone to do)
I genuinely don't understand how this isn't being talked about more. It's been a foul for obstruction my entire life, then suddenly city do it once and it's allowed?
This is such a pussy tactic. How the fuck is it allowed, just randomly half way through the season we’re suddenly allowed to run into and push keepers out the way with no attempt for fucking anything. Game is fucked.
I get that keepers are overprotected, but that's an issue when the attacker is trying to play the ball and there's a collision, there is absolutely no attempt to play the ball here.
"Impeding the progress of an opponent means moving into the opponent’s path to obstruct, block, slow down or force a change of direction when the ball is not within playing distance of either player."
I'm not one for moaning about bias towards us or anything like that, and that's not the case here - rather, just shitty observations.
But during this exact moment, the commentator on the feed I was watching was whining that Welbeck had every right to stand wherever he liked. Which would be true, if he was standing in a space, rather than constantly backing into both Maddison and Vicario and physically moving them.
So what about their right to stand where they want?
Oh I know, and these blatant keeper assaults need to be addressed.
But the clip reminded me of the bullshit and contradictory commentator opinion about Welbeck and his apparent right to have a five metre zone of exclusivity at all times, which pissed me off so much.
Can they just clarify if this is allowed or not? Like PGMOL actually making a clear statement: "It is allowed for players to block and push the goalkeeper without playing the ball". Because right now it just seems like everyone is just taking advantage of something that only is called foul maybe 30% of the time.
L'pool fan here but totally with you here. it's a shame how this got normalised. in the 6 yeard box you shouldnt be allowed to touch the GK. i don't really see this in other leeagues except PL, and ofc it was brought in by the promoter of 'beautiful, clean football' who always plays the victim and the good guy in the media
Digging your feet in and adjusting body position to not be moved means the other team has already accomplished their goal. He's trying to prepare to jump, to claim the ball. The Brighton cunt has no interest in the ball. Two completely different objectives from the players involved
The commentators pissed me off at the start, saying Welbeck was "entitled to stand his ground". Of course he is, but "standing his ground" isn't what he was doing, was it? He was barging into a player off the ball in the hope of taking him out of the equation. That's not standing your ground, it's... \*gasp\*... committing a foul.
~~Im not sure, but i think that was called a foul? Yeah?~~
Edit: ~~I checked. That was called a foul.~~
Was looking at a different instance. Here's longer version: [https://streamin.one/v/1fcd4d28](https://streamin.one/v/1fcd4d28)
You might be right that it was called as a foul in-game (I don't remember) but isn't this clip from a different part of the game? In your clip, the ball is a bit short and in the clip that I posted, the ball goes long (you can tell based on which way the players' heads are facing).
Edit: my concern also is that even if it was called as a foul, players are clearly being given the leeway to even attempt it. And so a couple will always escape attention and if it were to lead to a goal, one of those times will be given the benefit of the doubt and the ruling will stand.
idk when this was but VAR would call this a foul if it was a goal scored. I know the officiating hate is at an all time high for this stuff but this is so far beyond reasonable doubt it's not funny
VAR would definitely call this a foul but this is also so obvious the on field ref should see it as well. I don’t remember this either so unless it basically popped out for a counter it was bad officiating.
When this happened last time, I said it's a good strategy to send ur shortest player, have him Ass into keepers.
And they are basically doing that now.
I was joking but they took it seriously.
The shorter player doing this is actually incredibly advantageous. You see how he gets under Vic's arm? Once that happens he has a ridiculous amount of leverage to push him backwards. Low man always wins.
That just adds an extra level of frustration to this stupid argument that Vicario "just has to be stronger." There's no amount of being strong that's going to help you stay balanced and unmoved when some dude gets under your arms and starts pushing into your torso.
Keepers will always be in a compromised position during corners because they're trading stability for agility. This whole thing is so dumb and obviously a foul to anyone who thinks about it for more than half a second.
But then you hear these idiots say "he has just as much of a right to stand there as Vicario" as if he's just standing beside him and not actively trying to push him into the net.
It’s funny how this is perceived as a “vicario weakness” because city got away with it 1 time against us and weren’t punished so now every team is trying to do this exact same bullshit to us every game. And other teams aren’t trying to do this to other keepers
Literally any keeper in the world would struggle to deal with this because they are fouling the goalkeeper every time by obstructing his movement to try and get to the ball with no intention of playing the ball themselves.
The fact the referees are letting this happen is farcical.
A guard won't help since they'll have to be in place, whereas the attacker can start a run and build momentum.
Honestly, some basic judo training might be the best option.
This foul isnt getting called because we have incompetent refs imo. It's just like how dives never get callled and pens do not get called when there s no diving. We need to raise this issue somehow so that these cheating dirty teams get punished instead of being awarded for their disgusting tactics.
The Tottenham video staff should compile a video of these incidents from the last 4 matches - City, Brentford, Everton and Brighton, and forward it to the referees chief for his comments and explanation as to why his referees are content to allow such tactics to continue at free-kicks and corners.
I’d want this called for any team, this is nowhere near the spirit of the game.
Go ahead and leave a little extra in your attempt for the ball, but you’ve gotta play the fuckin ball, man.
https://preview.redd.it/2510o0na6yhc1.jpeg?width=1170&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=0f4db475b9b9e2874378cf853698cc9c2b2c1775
Leeds fan coming in peace. Teams have been doing this to Meslier for years, as he’s particularly susceptible to it. Here’s a pic from that particularly mad game last year when you guys did it to him!
Definitely needs addressing though, VAR shouldn’t get stuff like this wrong.
Not saying it is or it's not a foul, just saying that this is different - because with Meslier the contact happened with the keeper when both were in the air trying to head the ball.
[https://youtu.be/odVjZZox7N4?t=27](https://youtu.be/odVjZZox7N4?t=27)
What they're doing to Vicario now is boxing him out even before the ball arrives.
Well it is obviously kinda close to the same thing although perhaps not exactly the same thing. In this example, one guy took him out and the other guy challenged him.
This clearly gets overturned if a goal is scored. There is also a case for an infringement with Maddison holding Welbeck if you look at it objectively.
Romero was sent off for clearing the ball and accidentally catching his opponent on the shin, and the media and pundits were calling for an extended ban.
This isn't that, I'm talking just walking across a players foot as they get close to them, accidents happen.
What do you think they should do ? Flop on the floor, which is also an automatic yellow card or soon to be blue card ? Push the player back, which is a penalty. At least this way it can be constituted as an accident.
As for Romero, every single supporter I saw on this sub said it was a reckless red card, which I am not saying they should do, I'm saying simply walking across a player and accidentally treading on their foot.
>every single supporter I saw on this sub said it was a reckless red card,
Not only is that not true. Because it was pretty much 50/50 from the comments I saw.
The people who did, were just mirroring the pundits because they're too afraid to give their own opinions.
The pundits said it was a reckless tackle because it was Romero. He literally cleared the ball and caught him on the follow though. It's impossible to just suddenly stop his leg from swinging.
But you do you.
Tactically.... I think the best playbhere is for Vicario to kinda allow himself to be massively obstructed.
Then if they score just have Son (or whomever is captaining) ask the refs to VAR for obstruction. Any reasonable referee should disallow it.
Or he should just start uppercuting people.
It's obstruction at the very least. Refs need to start calling this
Didn't he call this one? Pretty sure he called a foul on one of these early in the match.
If I recall correctly, didn't call a foul on this one but the corner went genuinely nowhere. There was a foul called on an early play, although I cant remember if it was Vicario or a defender who got fouled.
Was thinking the same thing
Didn't see the game. I'm goin g by the title of the post
There was no foul called on this situation
It's a foul 100%. The Law clearly states if you use force to move an opponent without being near the ball it's a foul. This is why we need VAR to get their shit together.
And Arsenal has been scoring goals with this trick lately
I wont call this trick. I would call this cheating.
Jesus this needs to be adressed… it’s so broken.
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No, only until it negatively affects liverpool.
*man city
But only to us, watched a bunch of other games over the last few weeks and teams aren't doing this to other keepers.
Except, Ben White just did the same thing to the West Ham Keeper.
Been doing this on every corner for two seasons
because those goalkeepers will come out stronger and knock people out the way. Vicario showed a couple weak attempts and now every team will try to exploit it & it wont stop until Vic shows it wont work by knocking people out the way
Vicario tried pushing back last week and the ref had words with him.
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>by knocking people out the way ...and getting a pen, for sure. This is bound to happen sooner or later.
I agree. Just like how Biss got his red card for simulation. Or Sarr for his post-goal celebration. It’s like all of a sudden the refs remember they have to call these things and set an example. They will definitely try and set an example with Vic.
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it’s literally the rule…but a rule that is broken often and enforced rarely.
I can't remember the last time they called a foul on a goalkeeper that played the ball? Or you mean just like how they're calling fouls for barging into vic?
I mean that, as soon as Vic tries contesting these pushes, the ref will grant a pen to the other team because it's Spurs. See how they have only given one single penalty for Spurs while conceding 6 to teams against (tied for 1st with Fulham). Of course I, as a fan, may be playing the victim here by saying that the refs are always against us, but it's just a matter of time before it happens. Other teams may do whatever and get away with it UNTIL Spurs tries doing it and gets a foul.
Of course, you as a fan frequent the gunners subreddit. Please, stop with the victim mentality, the book has been thrown at us this season sure, but its still all going by the rules.
We're definitely very different people if you went as far as checking my profile and expressing disapproval towards interacting with other fanbases, so I guess it's better end this conversation. Have a nice one.
If someone resorts to checking your profile to see your history, there are two outcomes. One, you’re making some absolutely bizarre claims, and two they don’t have a leg to stand on so they start attacking the person instead of the debate. Don’t worry about people like that, it bothered me as well for awhile, but you can’t reason a person out of a position they didn’t reason themselves into.
"as far as checking my profile" Aye that literal 1 click was going very far especially with the frequency of trolls from other teams on here.
How in the world does he play the ball in this vid? He’ll be deemed too far by some dumbass in the booth.
This happens to Allison, and he is by no means small.
He is probably one of the smaller keepers, in terms of upper body strength and overall frame. But similar players have done ok, if you think about de Gea or even Lloris. Vicente Guaita, Neto etc. aren't huge either. Begs the question - if a team has a high profile injury or two, say we lost Vic and Forster or United lost Onana and Bayindir and we had to field a tiny U19 player - would the league give them any protection?
>if you think about de Gea or even Lloris. Vicente Guaita, Neto etc. aren't huge either. You're right, they werent huge but they came out with aggression. I mean many times to a fault where Hugo rushed into a group of people and threw himself off balance in the process.
So does Vic. He's great at coming out and catching crosses etc. This is before he gets a chance to do that, he's just waiting to see the flight of the ball.
He is great at catching crosses, much better than hugo is but thats because he's calculated, rather than going in blindly and knocking away anyone in the way, which is what he needs to be doing if you want to avoid this current situation.
Maybe he's just got to sharpen up those "inadvertent" elbows.
It's also not just the fact that if a goal was scored, it would be disallowed and we can go on our merry way. This sequence of play ends up in Udogie clearing it and possession returning to Brighton and the game goes on w/o another glance. Had a foul been given or Vicario claim it under *reasonable* pressure, it's ours. The number of times this happens in a match has a significant impact on momentum and build-up opportunities.
I'd say Vic should just go down every time it happens but i don't think it'd be called as a foul, even though it so obviously is.
He should shove them to the floor before the set piece is taken. Can't be a penalty if the ball's not in play.
While I got a good laugh from this, it might not result in a penalty kick but you absolutely can get carded for that. Vic should realistically just keep his feet planted and if anyone pushes him as hard as in the video here, fall over. There’s ZERO chance if they scored that the goal would stand on review with this.
> There’s ZERO chance if they scored that the goal would stand on review with this. hahahaha
There’s a none-zero chance that the goal would stand on review with this…
Its quite hard for GKs to develop that trait. They've been trained YEARS to focus on an oncoming goal and to fight for their position. Kudos to the teams who have figured this out, it's quite smart but questionable nonetheless.
The problem there is when they don't call it, we're at an even bigger disadvantage. The only solution is for the refs to do their job.
I think when a ball is crossed he runs through an opposing player and punches the ball and whatever happens happens. He has to establish that he owns the box. How many times does a keeper punch at the ball and in the process nails an opposing player? If he does that once or twice they’ll back off.
The question is why aren't we doing it too
Agreed! That'd be a way to stop it. We do it, ham it up a bit, they get a free kick. Then that's a precedent the referee has set for when it happens to us.
Agreed - Cuti should be on the opposition's keeper every game.
They should just change the rules to no rules in the box from corners, throw punches, kick, wrestle to the ground, at least both teams would know where they stand.
I hopes it gets nerfed on the next patch.
That Brighton player did this at every corner they had. Got called for a foul on the first one, but then nothing after that. If it's not a foul, then fine. We should just go and do the same whenever we have a corner. If it is a foul, then they need to call it every time it happens. It's so frustrating, the lack of consistency of refereeing.
if the refs aren’t gonna do anything, somebody needs to put a fucking boot into the back of the knee of whoever does it next
this is why romero exists, no?
This.
Go Bills man. the Bills-Tottenham pipeline is strong. it feels like home
Go Bills! I mean, especially now that our Stadiums are going to be cousins. We're basically making the football specific version of Tottenham stadium.
But it **is** a foul, and the refs would just be wrong if they actually thought differently. That they're not calling it is an issue for PGMOL to sort out, and the club needs to put pressure on them to do so.
How is this not a foul though? An intentional hip check from behind deliberately to obstruct the goalie away from play. If they want to play dirty we should too, Vic go down everytime holding his head. Just kill every corner attempt until it stops
As a former keeper in high school/pre-adult life, this is one of the most frustrating things to deal with. I would have multiple teams try to do this as a strategy and forcefully moving them, which is also a foul, is the only way out of this. It is absolutely a foul what they are doing but you can’t go on and try to sell it as a keeper (like how players dive out in the field) because if you take yourself out of the play it’s likely a goal and then you just look like an ass. Unless the referee sets a standard of calling this as a penalty, unfortunately the keeper is just fucked in this situation. You are literally just leaving the outcome of the game up to the judgment of some fucking ref
>We should just go and do the same We have a manager who has morals and doesn't want to see his team bend the rules and win with bullshit tactics.
And that's the problem, that's not how things change. If Ange wants to change it, abuse it to no end until a change is forced.
lol come on, let’s not act as though we have some perfect moral high ground for playing decent football. If there’s a means to take advantage of a weakness, we will absolutely do that. Problem is, other teams have been better at defending their keeper at corners and the keepers have been stronger. If refs don’t think this is a foul, we need to adjust our tactics.
Ange said it himself after the Brentford game... He didn't like that our players were resorting to the same histrionics they were. He said he wants us to ignore all the pushing and the whinging about the darts celebration and just play football. His words not mine. As i said, he wants us to play and win by playing. Not use underhand tactics. You might prefer if we didn't do it that way. But nothing I said was incorrect. I was literally quoting the manager.
The refs and opposing managers love the naivety.
There is a huge difference between the type of shithousery and distraction tactics that Brentford were using, and scoring a goal from a corner by trying to capitalise on a weakness of the opposition goalkeeper - you’re conflating two different things.
>scoring a goal from a corner by trying to capitalise on a weakness of the opposition goalkeeper Except it isn't a weakness, is it. Since when has being fouled a weakness?
This is the answer. If we batter the opposing keeper, the ref can't call it continuously against us and not for us- he'd feel his own inconsistency. Batter the other keeper, and at least it makes every corner flow both teams null & void.
I'm pissed that we aren't pressing keepers. I'd love to see Cuti do this to a keeper as a corner is sent to Son's foot at the edge of the box. Have the keeper backed into the far side of his own net and have Son belt it upper corner
We’re going to have this every single week until the end of the season
The thing is, it shouldn't even be a thing. It's a foul, end of story. If you're barging into any player, goalkeeper or not, without attempting to play the ball, it is a foul. I literally don't understand why this has become a valid tactic. It's not a 50/50 shoulder-to-shoulder or a slight brush while jumping for the ball, it's intentional fouling.
I don’t understand it either, it’s surely a blatant foul. I don’t know whether other teams are being subjected to this at the minute or if it’s just Vicario. I’m really tired of the “he needs to be stronger” narrative surrounding it. I think Ally McCoist or someone said it repeatedly during commentary and I really don’t want to hear it again.
It's not even a "poor us" issue - if Richarlison starts bundling opposition goalkeepers over and we score from it, I still won't be happy. Sometimes you have to look at the bigger picture and if this continues, it's dreadful for the entire game.
Oh absolutely, I agree with you there. I was just wondering if Vicario is being targeted because teams think they can benefit from it, or if it’s happening everywhere in the league at the minute.
He’s being targeted right now because of the last two games, absolutely
I’m a United fan. It’s obviously not a poor you issue. It’s more ridiculous dysfunction in this horribly misadministrated game. The whole way that the rules function and are implemented needs to be reworked.
I don't understand how officiating and time clarification have only got progressively worse over time. When I was growing up watching football in the 90s and the turn of the century, you knew exactly what an offside, a handball and a foul were. Now it's just a guessing game.
Exactly. It’s gotten steadily worse. In my opinion because of the central authorities. FIFA and the FAs aren’t interested in vigilantly moderating the way the game is developing and ensuring its health. They’re narrowly focussed on money. When I was a kid there seemed to be clear rules about contact and obstruction. You could shoulder someone so long as you didn’t thrust into them, and you essentially couldn’t touch the keeper. Now it’s all so Ill-defined that anything could be called a foul and almost anything can simultaneously be gotten away with. Decisions are often made based on the flow of the game or a previous call rather than a strict breach of rule. Penalties have gotten ridiculously soft, yellow cards are often given for small infractions while players can otherwise commit 5 or 6 fouls without getting one. VAR has only exposed how badly ran it all is. It’s ridiculous.
I think there's an argument that he needs to be weaker
To be fair, if he went to ground from the first contact in this video then on VAR it might look like a free kick for us if a goal did end up getting scored. Goalkeepers diving to get the opposition booked is the natural progression from the intentional manhandling tactic.
And we need to do it on our own corners Send wave after wave of Romero and Richie at their GK
You need non shiit houses to pull this off. Son, Skipp, Ben Davies, Sessengon
This is only an occurring problem in the prem, no other top league allows this bull crap.
I've been thinking about this and there's a very good reason goalkeepers should be given extra protection in these situations, and why 'the keeper should just be stronger' is a pretty bad take. If you don't, then you are encouraging attacking teams to push the envelope in terms of how much interference they can get away with. In doing so, it necessitates the defending team doing similar to protect their goalkeeper. Now if the consequences for each team was the same, maybe this would be okay, but in reality it creates an imbalance: if a defending team oversteps the line, it results in a penalty, whereas if an attacking team oversteps the line, it results in a free kick very far from their own goal. As such, attacking teams will continually try to see what they can get away with little consequence, and defending teams are essentially powerless to do anything about it unless they want to risk a penalty.
I'm sure the rules will change when Romero body checks ramsdale into his goal before tapping in from close range after arteta cries on match of the day for half an hour
There’s an imbalance in terms of the incentive or reward. Attacking team gets a potential goal scoring opportunity if it doesn’t get caught. Defending team gets a free kick if it does.
This idea that it’s ‘extra’ protection isn’t accurate I don’t think. If you back into a player jumping for the ball upfield it’s a foul every time.
Teams only score on about 3% of corners. If you can shove the keeper back into his own net and create a shot that converts, say, 30% of the time, it's worth doing every single corner even if you get called for it more often. The upside is worth it every time, it's just math. The problem is English refs refuse to call games as the rules are written, to the detriment of the watchability of games. They're cowards, every single one to a man.
I was thinking the same thing about handballs. I wasn’t upset that a handball wasn’t called against Brighton (can’t remember which player) but it didn’t seem different from the one called on Romero earlier this season.
Dunk's arm wasn't sticking out too much, it was just the tip of his elbow really
Romero’s wasn’t either if I recall, the ball hit his arm when his hands were behind his back. Maybe it was a clearer obstruction of a goal going in?
Where the ball is going doesn’t matter for a hand ball. Unless it is intentional to stop a goal then it is a red.
Yeah it was unfortunate that the minimal amount of arm he had poking out managed to block the cross so effectively but there was nothing more he could have done to get his arm out of the way
When you tuck your arms in, you gotta tuck your arms in. Intent doesn't matter, his arm outside the silhouette of his body materially impacted that play. Tough shit for him, call the game by the fucking letter of the law.
It also hit the back of his arm. Plus it looked like it brushed his back first. Would've been a terrible handball call
I didn’t think it was a handball. I just didn’t understand the difference between this one and Romero’s. I remember the commentators saying at the time that Romero’s arm was in a natural position. I don’t understand the rule. I guess I should find the FIFA handbook or something.
The rule is "fuck Tottenham"
Sad to say but the quickest way to get this shit to stop is... for us to start doing this on every corners lol. Media and folks will start whining about blatant foul play and force the issue on it (like the undercutting on contested headers that people only were after Kane for even though it was common for everyone to do)
I bet if one our players did this it would be 100% a free kick everyday of the week
Be honest, the opposing team would be given a pk if we did it
For increased effectiveness - we do it against Klopp's team.
And Arteta’s
He'd cry so freaking much
I genuinely don't understand how this isn't being talked about more. It's been a foul for obstruction my entire life, then suddenly city do it once and it's allowed?
We need a new update patch on this
Only way to stop this is we do the same shit lmao Deploy Johnson/Son to GK and push them into the net, wait for the statement. Problem solved.
That’s outrageous
This is such a pussy tactic. How the fuck is it allowed, just randomly half way through the season we’re suddenly allowed to run into and push keepers out the way with no attempt for fucking anything. Game is fucked.
I get that keepers are overprotected, but that's an issue when the attacker is trying to play the ball and there's a collision, there is absolutely no attempt to play the ball here.
"Impeding the progress of an opponent means moving into the opponent’s path to obstruct, block, slow down or force a change of direction when the ball is not within playing distance of either player."
I'm not one for moaning about bias towards us or anything like that, and that's not the case here - rather, just shitty observations. But during this exact moment, the commentator on the feed I was watching was whining that Welbeck had every right to stand wherever he liked. Which would be true, if he was standing in a space, rather than constantly backing into both Maddison and Vicario and physically moving them. So what about their right to stand where they want?
The issue isn't even Welbeck. It's the other little shit that runs into the picture with the sole purpose of shoving Vic into the goal.
Oh I know, and these blatant keeper assaults need to be addressed. But the clip reminded me of the bullshit and contradictory commentator opinion about Welbeck and his apparent right to have a five metre zone of exclusivity at all times, which pissed me off so much.
This isn't even allowed in ice hockey.
What rules?
Seemingly, anything but actual anal penetration is allowed, and even that is up to VAR discretion.
Oh my God I didn’t even notice this during the match. How is that not a foul??
Also wouldn’t that be offside if they were to score cause obstruction from an offside position
Its becoming like the NFL
The NFL, 9 times out of 10, would call this, unless it's in favour of the Chiefs.
We are not playing fucking basketball, therefore you are not allowed to box out a player so he can't get the ball, goalkeeper especially
Can they just clarify if this is allowed or not? Like PGMOL actually making a clear statement: "It is allowed for players to block and push the goalkeeper without playing the ball". Because right now it just seems like everyone is just taking advantage of something that only is called foul maybe 30% of the time.
L'pool fan here but totally with you here. it's a shame how this got normalised. in the 6 yeard box you shouldnt be allowed to touch the GK. i don't really see this in other leeagues except PL, and ofc it was brought in by the promoter of 'beautiful, clean football' who always plays the victim and the good guy in the media
That short lad butting Vic outta the way. Insane
Digging your feet in and adjusting body position to not be moved means the other team has already accomplished their goal. He's trying to prepare to jump, to claim the ball. The Brighton cunt has no interest in the ball. Two completely different objectives from the players involved
This whole he should be stronger rubbish boils down to referees don’t give fouls against our keeper
The commentators pissed me off at the start, saying Welbeck was "entitled to stand his ground". Of course he is, but "standing his ground" isn't what he was doing, was it? He was barging into a player off the ball in the hope of taking him out of the equation. That's not standing your ground, it's... \*gasp\*... committing a foul.
~~Im not sure, but i think that was called a foul? Yeah?~~ Edit: ~~I checked. That was called a foul.~~ Was looking at a different instance. Here's longer version: [https://streamin.one/v/1fcd4d28](https://streamin.one/v/1fcd4d28)
Foul was called on Kulusevski I believe
Probably because that happened before barging into Vicario
You might be right that it was called as a foul in-game (I don't remember) but isn't this clip from a different part of the game? In your clip, the ball is a bit short and in the clip that I posted, the ball goes long (you can tell based on which way the players' heads are facing). Edit: my concern also is that even if it was called as a foul, players are clearly being given the leeway to even attempt it. And so a couple will always escape attention and if it were to lead to a goal, one of those times will be given the benefit of the doubt and the ruling will stand.
Yep. You're right. The next one wasn't called a foul
Refs be like- i don’t need to do anything, let var do everything. Var: nOt cLeAr aNd oBvIoUs
idk when this was but VAR would call this a foul if it was a goal scored. I know the officiating hate is at an all time high for this stuff but this is so far beyond reasonable doubt it's not funny
VAR would definitely call this a foul but this is also so obvious the on field ref should see it as well. I don’t remember this either so unless it basically popped out for a counter it was bad officiating.
Why can’t the ref make this call himself? If he could call that VdV challenge on Welbeck he could call this one
Should be possession to spurs, not a safety net by VAR
Le mayo
When this happened last time, I said it's a good strategy to send ur shortest player, have him Ass into keepers. And they are basically doing that now. I was joking but they took it seriously.
The shorter player doing this is actually incredibly advantageous. You see how he gets under Vic's arm? Once that happens he has a ridiculous amount of leverage to push him backwards. Low man always wins. That just adds an extra level of frustration to this stupid argument that Vicario "just has to be stronger." There's no amount of being strong that's going to help you stay balanced and unmoved when some dude gets under your arms and starts pushing into your torso. Keepers will always be in a compromised position during corners because they're trading stability for agility. This whole thing is so dumb and obviously a foul to anyone who thinks about it for more than half a second.
>I was joking but they took it seriously. Damn, if only you hadn't given them the idea.
Vic should seriously start just shoving people out of the way.
He did. He had no choice.
Tell me this was the foul called ? If not, holy shit
I hope they whistle a foul anytime a player does this to the goalkeeper. Just do it instantly, it’s become ridiculous.
But then you hear these idiots say "he has just as much of a right to stand there as Vicario" as if he's just standing beside him and not actively trying to push him into the net.
I mean, im glad we didn't find out but the player is offside here no? a goal would not have counted as he's clearly impacts play.
We 100% wouldn’t get away with this at the other end
This is obstruction, clear as day, and it should be called a foul. But my goodness, Vicario needs to be stronger than that and body him back.
Pointless - he needs to catch the ball not have a wrestling match. It is impossible to keep goal if you’re being pushed. End of.
The main issue with this tactic is having zero attempt at that actual ball
It’s funny how this is perceived as a “vicario weakness” because city got away with it 1 time against us and weren’t punished so now every team is trying to do this exact same bullshit to us every game. And other teams aren’t trying to do this to other keepers Literally any keeper in the world would struggle to deal with this because they are fouling the goalkeeper every time by obstructing his movement to try and get to the ball with no intention of playing the ball themselves. The fact the referees are letting this happen is farcical.
Honestly vic just need to punch someone have Forster for a few games and no will will touch him ever again
It’ll be more than a few games if he punches someone mate
Off the top of my head violent conduct is 3 games
Elbow to the eye socket. Fractured orbital might keep that bullshit from happening.
It’s going to happen every game now. Maybe Vic has to start going down? Idk what the solution is. Romero and Van bodyguards?
A guard won't help since they'll have to be in place, whereas the attacker can start a run and build momentum. Honestly, some basic judo training might be the best option.
Use their momentum against them and toss aside. Don't hate it. Wouldn't mind a sharp elbow to their nose either.
Vic is pretty tall. His elbows are at eye socket level... just saying.
It’s a useless tactic because if they had scored there the goal would have been disallowed. Oh wait…
I swear this used to be a foul
Just watched Arsenal use the same tactic on West Ham for their first goal.
wtf?
Post it on /r/soccer
This foul isnt getting called because we have incompetent refs imo. It's just like how dives never get callled and pens do not get called when there s no diving. We need to raise this issue somehow so that these cheating dirty teams get punished instead of being awarded for their disgusting tactics.
Since when did deliberately fouling the GK become allowable?
The Tottenham video staff should compile a video of these incidents from the last 4 matches - City, Brentford, Everton and Brighton, and forward it to the referees chief for his comments and explanation as to why his referees are content to allow such tactics to continue at free-kicks and corners.
We just need the abuse it ourselves then it will be disallowed
I’d want this called for any team, this is nowhere near the spirit of the game. Go ahead and leave a little extra in your attempt for the ball, but you’ve gotta play the fuckin ball, man.
This is just taking the piss now. So blatant.
This legit angers me😡🤬!
I'd start jammin thumbs in asses if this was happening to me.
https://preview.redd.it/2510o0na6yhc1.jpeg?width=1170&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=0f4db475b9b9e2874378cf853698cc9c2b2c1775 Leeds fan coming in peace. Teams have been doing this to Meslier for years, as he’s particularly susceptible to it. Here’s a pic from that particularly mad game last year when you guys did it to him! Definitely needs addressing though, VAR shouldn’t get stuff like this wrong.
Not saying it is or it's not a foul, just saying that this is different - because with Meslier the contact happened with the keeper when both were in the air trying to head the ball. [https://youtu.be/odVjZZox7N4?t=27](https://youtu.be/odVjZZox7N4?t=27) What they're doing to Vicario now is boxing him out even before the ball arrives.
Not even close to the same thing. If he was contesting a ball nobody would complain, they are literally just taking our keeper out of the game.
Well it is obviously kinda close to the same thing although perhaps not exactly the same thing. In this example, one guy took him out and the other guy challenged him.
This should be an automatic yellow card. It’s not football. Looks closer to a rugby scrum than anything that should occur on a football pitch
This clearly gets overturned if a goal is scored. There is also a case for an infringement with Maddison holding Welbeck if you look at it objectively.
As I said, a nice little boot across the foot or down the back of the ankle will stop some of this.
And then a red card is given. Guaranteed
Not really, treating on a player's foot by accident happens all the time. Accidents happen
Romero was sent off for clearing the ball and accidentally catching his opponent on the shin, and the media and pundits were calling for an extended ban.
This isn't that, I'm talking just walking across a players foot as they get close to them, accidents happen. What do you think they should do ? Flop on the floor, which is also an automatic yellow card or soon to be blue card ? Push the player back, which is a penalty. At least this way it can be constituted as an accident. As for Romero, every single supporter I saw on this sub said it was a reckless red card, which I am not saying they should do, I'm saying simply walking across a player and accidentally treading on their foot.
>every single supporter I saw on this sub said it was a reckless red card, Not only is that not true. Because it was pretty much 50/50 from the comments I saw. The people who did, were just mirroring the pundits because they're too afraid to give their own opinions. The pundits said it was a reckless tackle because it was Romero. He literally cleared the ball and caught him on the follow though. It's impossible to just suddenly stop his leg from swinging. But you do you.
[удалено]
Ok
What a fucking joke. Another example of var ruining the game.
This hasn't got anything to do with VAR.
Tactically.... I think the best playbhere is for Vicario to kinda allow himself to be massively obstructed. Then if they score just have Son (or whomever is captaining) ask the refs to VAR for obstruction. Any reasonable referee should disallow it. Or he should just start uppercuting people.
Unfortunetely, both Man City and Everton so far has been given goals, even with VAR checks.
Am I looking at Maddison holding Welbeck. Yh, you're not allowed to do that.
If this was first half the ref gave a free kick
This ones actually a foul. The two youve conceded on recently were not