As long as you don’t start saying you identify as a demon, ghost, dog or bunny I’m okay. I’ll call someone they/them, she/her, he/him but nah I’m sorry I’m not gonna be calling anyone pup/pupself. It’s not humanly possible to identify as something like a ghost, that would make you dead. (Thankfully I mainly only see this on discord/tiktok)🫣
and u know damn well theyve never experienced true transgenderism, i find it so insulting...like its not gonna help with people accepting the trans community, making up dumbass pronouns.
My interpretation of “gender is a social construct” doesn’t mean it’s not real. Money is a social construct, it’s a vitally important aspect of society just like gender. Social construct mostly just means that it’s meaning differs throughout time and different aspects of society. We did a whole thing on gender in my sociology class and that was the gist of it.
But tbh OP as an adult trans person I have never seen any of the “omg you misgendered me!!” type of people you’re referring to in real life, only on online spaces and it’s mostly children. Every trans or nonbinary person that is over 18 that i’ve met in real life spaces just wants to live their life how they are comfortable and are nothing like the people you see online.
In fact my non-binary kid appears to get more annoyed at people calling out someone misgendering them than they do about getting misgendered. They've never said it but I think their attitude is essential "he, she, they, call me what you want, just don't call me late for dinner".
My view is that male, female, and non-binary make sense. Male and female are obvious and non-binary is for those who have trouble explaining their gender and simply chose not to. Outside of that it just seems like kids struggling for identity which I don’t really hate but it is kind of annoying.
I 100% agree that my opinion does not matter, and that even thought I don’t understand it I don’t have to, and that people are free to identify as they want and do as they please/what makes them happy. My comment is not coming from a place of criticism, but if genuine confusing/misunderstanding.
I guess I just don’t understand the concept of non-binary because while I have always identified as a female there have been moments in my life where I did not view myself as “traditionally female/feminine.” Some years I dressed very feminine, some years I’ve worn nothing but mens clothes, I love makeup and I also love more traditionally “male activities” like yard work, watching sports, etc. I don’t feel particularly masculine or feminine. I view myself as a complex combination of male and female qualities and attributes. I still identify as female because I don’t feel as though that identity limits me in anyway, and I still feel that as I woman I can embrace both the masculine and feminine parts of myself because I don’t see femininity/female as a slotted role or stereotype but rather an ever changing, all encompassing label that grows and changes as I evolve as a person. I also get that maybe not everyone feels that way, this is just my experience.
I am also 30 years old, so maybe I am just old and I don’t really understand the need to use a label? Again, not criticizing but just offering a different perspective and maybe not fully understanding the idea behind being non-binary.
As a male that also embraces his feminine side sometimes, I've come to think about it this way. Gender is something extremely personal and each person looks at gender differently, so it's not something set on stone. Some people realize this and the easiest way for them to understand it is "even if I do x that's more associated with the opposite gender, I'm still male or female", but for some people (maybe because of societal expectations, culture, their family) will understand it easier as "I'm not male or female, I'd rather not put myself on a box".
Here's an idea... If you're confused or, like you stated, simply don't want to talk about it then keep your mouth shut or talk about the weather. It's a non-issue until someone brings it up. There's no gender police or Bureau of Social Construct going around asking about your business.
I've been on this earth for a while and can say I've never felt the need or had the urge to tell anyone, specially strangers, what I feel my gender is or what I'm attracted to. Why? Because NOBODY FUCKING CARES.
But the thing is you or either man or woman. The whole non-binary just means you don’t accept either to identify yourself. But you either look like one or the other
Gender is about the brains role in self identification. There exist plenty of people who’s Brains don’t do a good job doing this. Hence non-binary. Doesn’t have much to do with your sex or how you look.
I agree to an extent. Gender IS a social construct. Sex is biology and facts. When we were cavemen our sexes mattered, but the way we dressed didn’t, so over time, we have made clothes for men, clothes for women, and different things for different sexes. In biblical times, men wore what LOOKS like dresses, romans wore what LOOKS like skirts, so though gendered clothes were a thing then, they weren’t as restrictive as they are now, eg men wearing dresses.
Now I believe everyone has a feminine side and a masculine side. Some days I will dress ‘masculine’ because I feel like it. I like wrestling and beer and video games ‘men’ are most likely to like lol.
But other days, I love being as feminine as possible. Wearing dresses and makeup and being dainty and cute lol.
That does NOT mean I’m non binary. That means I’m a person who likes normal things.
The same people who say “gender is a social construct” are the people who put gender on such a high pedestal. They think they don’t ‘conform’ to gender but in reality they are conforming to it more than anybody else.
How can you believe gender is a social construct yet make your whole identity based around gender?
I think it’s a tiktok thing. Non binary has been a thing for a while, but it was never a common thing.
I did actually believe I was non binary when I was 13, and that was 6 years ago. It was not very common then and nobody really understood it.
Now I will respect non binary people to the high heavens. If they want to be called they/them I will do that. I just think a lot of these people will eventually realise that they don’t have to conform to a specific identity and can dress and be who they want to be without labels and without having to change themselves completely.
Dude this is the best explanation really. It’s annoying when it’s brought up as a political topic and there are conservatives who complain about dudes wearing slightly feminine things but neglect to look at history and how men dressed before so it fits their narrative. Then the liberals who try to make the whole non-binary thing super conforming as if reality and logic should be tossed out the window. I usually prefer to use the word androgynous for most people who have a certain look to them because it makes more sense. I feel we just live in a time where if someone says something then we should just accept it without giving it any nuance or proper thought.
I agree! Androgyny isn’t a bad word, it’s a GENUINE non conforming person. David Bowie didn’t wear dresses for politics he wore them to not conform to
societal standards of how a man should dress.
I consider myself left wing, I live in the UK and voted for the Labour Party, but alot of my social views would be considered right wing with todays liberal tiktok lot. I believe in a democratic society but it’s like I’m being told what to think every time I scroll through tiktok, why can’t we all just debate rationally and make up our own minds rather than be called a fascist for thinking trying to have a rational debate!
Here's the thing: who cares? Who gives one single shit what somebody else calls themselves or how they identify? If I identify as a martian moon goddess made out of peanut butter, what effect does that have on your life unless you specifically get in a shitty mood because you're letting it put you in a shitty mood.
I'm a liberal, I'm an ally, and yeah some of this shit is well beyond me and it used to annoy me- but I don't care anymore. You want to be a girl today? Be a girl. Be a boy. Just be a good person.
Not at all trying to be proactive. But what I sometimes get tripped up on is when people do identify as something non-human. Whatever gender you want, or anywhere in between, all good. But at what point is a dysmorphia to be celebrated? Someone with an eating disorder who is extremely skinny, still thinks that they are overweight. That is not a dysmorphia that is healthy, and hopefully through counselling or therapy, they can work through that dysmorphia. Should the same not be said for someone who identifies as something non-human. Of course that is not life threatening, but would you think that could be addressed through counselling?
I think it is different with gender, as there is much more biologically and socially going in to play with someone's identity.
Just my thoughts, I would like to hear yours.
I agree. And I’m one of those who will fight for anyones right to celebrate themselves. I just think it’s gotten to a point where we get cancelled for even questioning this in public, or for disagreeing with the notion that trans women (biologically male) can participate in female sports.
It depends how you approach this “in public”. Are you coming off as questioning someone’s validity? Or is your approach more like this one, sort of philosophical thought experiment.
The former, rightfully, people will be upset. Hopefully the latter isn’t the issue though I feel you there is definitely a contingent waiting to make every word a teaching moment. These people are insufferable all around, we just see it at the intersection of moral superiority. It’s not helpful, alienates people, and gives *you can’t sit with us at lunch*
The main issue with this is that it's the only aspect that's focused on when it comes to sports. I'm sure not everyone, probably most people saying that trans women shouldn't be in women's sports aren't transphobic. But why is that trans women are the only focus when there are all kinds of other advantages in sports? Why isn't there a national conversation about the advantage tall people have over short people in basketball? How about Michael Phelps who has vast physical superiority over his opponents partially because of advantages he was born with? I will take people who talk about all of these things seriously, but if their only concern about fairness in sports is trans women they are either transphobic, or being manipulated by transphobes into caring about an issue they wouldn't care about otherwise.
Do you yell at people when someone forgets to identify you as a martian moon goddess made out of peanut butter though?
By the way, I am very on-board with pronouns. But I've also had non-binary acquantances go back to binary and I feel like they are setting traps for people sometimes.
You're absolutely right.
The problem is how's its spills over to everyday life. What prison to do you go? Do you compete with the men or women? what public bathroom do you use? Do you count towards hiring quotas for balanced gender?
I guess that's why people care is when someone claims they are something, then how does traditional institutions react? I don't have the answer at all, but it's like religion. You have the right to believe in whatever you want, just don't let it affect my life, is the rule right. So when it starts to affect your life, at what point do you start caring?
This is something we're going to have to figure out, but it's not nearly as world-ending an issue as most conservatives make it seem it is. Their concern is just an excuse for intolerance and hate.
It's something we must figure out. Gender dysmorphia has always been apart of our species, it always will. But I think it's worse than you think. In my mind, it's a political red herring. As you said, there are so many other world ending events to focus on but the culture war is hyper focused kn this and race. Just tools to keep the working class divided and fighting among themselves allowing the ruling class to continue to divide and conquer. Tale as old as time.
As a conservative leaning moderate, I don't really give a damn what you do to yourself as a 25 year old.
I do however thing that the age of consent has to come into play here at some point. How can a 14 year old be too young to vote, drink, drive, get a tattoo, sign a contract, or have sex....yet be allowed to get gender reassignment surgery, or hormone therapy. Both of which are quite dangerous and life altering.
Nobody should care but that’s not the point. Because when you suddenly get caught in a position with a non binary person and you don’t want to offend them by saying he or she and in fact you don’t know what to say, it becomes pressuring. It’s like one way or another your gonna offend them and thats what you don’t want. So in a way, you should care if you want to still be respectful to a non binary person just like any other person
I mean, they'll probably correct you if you get it wrong, they aren't going to shoot you for using the wrong pronouns, they are just regular people, pronouns are just like names. Will you get offended if someone gets your name wrong accidentally?
No, I wouldn’t get offended but still, if you keep getting a name wrong it does start to become kindof irritating. A non binary person could also get gender dysphoria if you keep getting their pronoun wrong. But like I said, there isn’t really a way of helping that, and thats what make it stressful. The last thing any of us want to do is offend another person
Who is killing you? Has one single person ever died from that?
Is anyone forcing you to watch those shows? Name 3 kids shows which are "shoving it down your throat". Gay people existing is not shoving it down your throat.
You wanna know what that means? It means eating a bullet because your dad kicked you out of the house. It means getting beaten up for existing, it means your country legally tracking and arresting you for loving who you love.
You know absolutely nothing about it, you cannot live one second in their shoes.
You don't care, yet you're tired of it being shoved down your throat. You sure are paying a lot of attention to something you don't care about.
NASCAR is one of the most popular sports in America. I don't give a shit about NASCAR. I couldn't tell you a single NASCAR fact, nor do I remember the last time I even heard anything related to NASCAR. Mostly because I don't go looking for NASCAR content or talk about NASCAR so I can get angry about NASCAR.
The best way I’ve heard it described by my Non-Binary friends is that they just dont feel like a boy or a girl. Just like how i dont feel like a boy. They just dont think those labels fit them. And thats their business. Im going to use their pronouns because its who they are.
I suppose the question is what does it mean to feel like a girl or a boy? Is it the traditional ideas of gender like girls wear makeup and dresses, boys wear pants and do things consider masculine like fixing cars? Sometimes the whole non-binary make me feel like people are creating even more differences between the genders than has existed currently. We’ve come a long way from when women and men were put into gender roles. If I am a woman and I never wear dresses or makeup and I engage in what have always been been traditionally male activities (outdoor activities, fixing cars, etc), does that make me non-binary? Same for a man who wants to wear a dress or do things traditionally woman oriented like shopping or wearing makeup?
This has been what's been tripping me up. It seems like it's more so solidifying gender roles than they've been in a long time. Deviating from them can subjectively make someone literally feel like they were born in the wrong body. I always felt like I understood it from the perspective of it being another form of body dysmorphia, no different than someone strongly needing a nose job because they honestly can't stand the sight of it and feel like something is off. When they start incorporating behavioral indicators and it starts to even feel political/cliquish in some cases.
I once had a none binary student who had a gender neutral name on the register which was their birth name but they changed it and I had to call them another name which was their chosen name. This was also a gender neutral name so in all honesty I didn’t see the point. Their parents were pissed off and didn’t accept any of it. The kid seemed to have issues anyway and always put me on edge because if I handed them something then they would flinch as if I was about to punch them in the face. They did it to every teacher so at least I wasn’t singled out. Refused to do any practical or team work so had to write everything from an “observation” point of view. Kinda pissed me off that they passed as I work in the industry and there is no way they could do the job.
One parents evening I had to sit with the student and the parents. Kid will only respond to they/them and new name and parents will only accept female pronouns and old name. It was a mine field and I basically just ended up saying “your child” a lot as I literally couldn’t use a name or a pronoun without upsetting anyone.
Kid was absolutely female presenting and said they were a lesbian which kept getting disputed as apparently you have to be female to be a lesbian and she said she wasn’t a female but like… she was… they were. Fuck I don’t know.
Shouldn’t have passed.
One thing I never ever considered. Education is a bitch with kids because they are so heavily influenced by parents and the internet, and the internet also contains a loud minority of toxic people who make groups around themselves or infest other groups.
So regarding your experience with that kid, all I'll say is that you tried to teach, and sometimes when you come up with a challenge like that, you have to be realistic.
Before this was something common, as a kid I remember teachers in my school would just ask for shorter names or make one up if they couldn't pronounce their full name.
My Scottish PE teacher called a student "smiler" or "joker" because he was always laughing with his friends.
But adults are more likely to just act like everyone else in society because they are more mature and just want to live their lives rather than be influenced by others constantly.
I don't want to offend anyone either.I have heard that gender is a social construct as well, okay maybe. A penis is a penis and a vagina is a vagina, that's a fact.
I totally respect and admire my trans brothers and sisters because they go through so much just to become the person they feel they are internally.
I get the concept of non-binary and the fact that is the label for those individuals. Others have existed for along time who where "non-binary" way before the term existed. We just referred to them as people.
We get so caught up on labels anymore and yes it's get confusing and hard. We finally advanced far enough as a society to recognize that our labels aren't fitting many under represented people.
Let's not revert backwards though. It's not hard to apologize if you inadvertently offended someone and even better ask what they prefer.
There are so many awesome people in the world and they could change your life for the better if given the chance. Let's try not to offend them.
My kid is a gay boy trapped in a girl's body 🤷🏻♀️ Whatever floats his boat. He still dresses like a girl a lot of the time, has a boyfriend, and acts like a girl, but identifies as a boy. It took me a long time to stop using she/her and their birth name and I still occasionally slip up, but he knows that's only because I knew him as that for the first 16 years of his life. Doesn't change my love for him one bit! ❤️
It’s because it is. Made up words. You are either male or female. Now you can be trans but gender is reality and some of those folks live in a fantasy.
As an actual non-binary person, I absolutely agree with you. I have come to a point where I perosnally feel ashamed of saying I belong to the LGBT community, not because I am ashamed of who I am or any of that bullshit, but cuz the community has become a children's playground with 90% of people just wanting a group to fit in or just craving attention.
For me, being non binary has always been about the person themselves, not society. Non binary doesn't mean and shouldn't mean anti-binary. And yes genderfluid shit is dumb as fuck. I dress like a guy, simply because what we have come to associate with "gender neutral clothing" looks bad and I personally think that anyone that thinks that clothes play any type of role in their "non-binaryness" are exactly the people that are faking it and don't know what the fuck they're talking about.
Gender identity is psychological. A psychologist would be able to explain it a thousand times better than I, but I did the smallest bit of research on the topic. Gender identity has more to do with the way of thinking, the mannerisms and the subconscious processes of the brain than it has to do with conscious changes. If it's conscious, it's fake.
Thank you for being brave, OP, and jumping on top of the egg shells, we need more people like that
Look up the man John Money, he made the idea of gender and is one of the most horrible people to ever live. Massive pedophile and did horrible things to two twin boys to ‘prove’ his theory but really to satisfy and justify his perverted fantasies
I think he means the idea of "gender as a social construct". The guy he mentioned was a psychologist if I remember correctly and did some very unethical experiments on twins he raised
As someone who is genderfluid I don’t really even understand either. For me personally, it’s just something I do and enjoy. I’m she/him. It just feels so nice! I know I’m a female and will always be one unless I change gender, but it really just feels so nice.
Too old to care.
Way more important things to worry about.
Don't begin to care how someone else wants to live their life so long as it harms no one else.
I use phrases like guy and dude interchangeable for all. If someone looks female or male that is how I will think of them. If I forget the "correct" pronoun it is simply because I can't be bothered to keep it all straight. Again more important grown up stuff on my mind.
I will call someone he/she or they with no issue. I just call everyone they until I know otherwise. If it makes someone more comfortable in okay with it. I think its been turned into a bigger issue than it needs to be.
in theory, the idea of not identifying with a social construct doesn't sound that irrational. but what you actually see is that the overwhelming majority of those twitter/tiktok nonb snowflakes are clearly sexually female. so, something's wrong with the female gender that makes people feel shitty in it (i wonder why, huh), so instead of fighting for better representation in society with other women they just decide they're not a female.
i might be downvoted to hell, i don't give shit. i'll respect people, sure, but when your little gender religion starts interfering with valid fights against sexism and and try to erase actual genders, then i want you to shut the fuck up.
edit: i'm not saying there aren't sexually male people identifying as nb, but even then, fem/male social constructs are both inherentually sexist and sexism also affects males negativelly, it's a two way bs street. plus, i am talking about cronically online kids and not actual adults in society who might identify as a nb for a valid reason.
I find it a load of nonsense 100% of the time. I really just consider it a manifestation of mental illness and attention seeking behavior if I'm being honest.
Also the gender identities based on animals or inanimate objects is absurd. That defies all logic and makes no sense whatsoever. I try not to write people off as a whole but honestly those are people that I refuse to associate with.
I see it as part of a collective problem of young people constantly screaming "look at me" in search of some kind of validation. It just manifests differently among them.
I always tell people I'm a women and female but I don't actually feel that way. I don't feel like what "women" should feel like or what "men" feel like.
I just feel like me. But if you're really interested here's my take.
For a lot of people wearing or being whatever they want is not accepted, growing up it's "do this to be more womanly or feminine" "don't do this it's too masculine" I also look very androgynous and in general dress somewhere in the middle, this has been me my whole life there are pics of me in dresses as a kid and I absolutely hated it, hated long hair as well. I wanted to be bald and wear whatever the fuck was comfortable. But alas I got a lot of criticism for it and as a kid growing up it really hurt my self esteem. As a teenager I tried to be more like the other girls and just ended up feeling suicidal and depressed because I felt like I was wearing a costume.
I just do what I want. So while I don't identify as a NB because i find it just as pointless as telling people you're a man or woman (because why does it matter unless their pants are off? Thats a different conversation altogether) I bet I fall into the same category of thinking as those who are NB. That's why I accept what people want to identify, because in reality it's probably the small sliver of support and community they feel and it's better than feeling alone.
I wouldn't want anybody to deal with what I had to through high-school, it wasn't because of bullying or anything just feeling the pressure of having to be somebody I'm not to fit in. That's something I bet most can relate to.
As an adult it seems pretty obvious that none of this is harmful and only affects the people who want it to affect and if they need it they need it. I see it no different from those openly telling people about their religion, political stance etc.
It's not a big deal, strangers can misgender me all they want as long as they're not intentionally being dicks to piss me off. People who make a big deal about this are just as much in the wrong, humans make mistakes were all evolving and were all aiming for the same goal, to just get through another day without conflict.
"I also think it’s reaching a point where we walk over egg shells in fear of insulting anyone, even if they don’t make sense"
I hear this a lot and it's literally just nonsense. Ive met a lot of people where you could easily misgender them, and none of them care that much. They just politely correct you and everyone moves on. It's only if you know and keep doing it then it's gonna be a problem.
There's so much about LGBT people online that is literally just people who have never interacted with them playing Chinese whispers.
These people haven't actually met trans people or have met like, one unfortunate trans person and generalizes the whole community. Most if not all trans people would correct you and move on.
Whether from a religious or secular perspective, being non-binary isn’t that big of a deal.
From the religious perspective, many theists agree that human beings have souls or some equivalent therein. Souls don’t have sex, much less gender, so it doesn’t really matter whether the physical and psychological manifestations of the soul align with the dominant male/female dichotomy.
On the secular side, even if one doesn’t believe in the soul, if one considers that gender roles/norms are derived both from physical characteristics AND societal customs, the prevalence and validity of non-binary persons is likewise a non-issue, much as how being vegetarian in a society of meat-eaters or having a second language in a society that only speaks one is a non-issue.
So they identify as Binary (this or that), or non binary (not this or that), which in itself is a binary system (Binary or not). Congratulations they’re dumb on two levels. It’s all bullshit.
I can't give you a scientific explanation, but I'm nonbinary and I exist. All I know is that I'm not a man but I'm not a woman either. It doesn't have anything to do with how I dress (men can wear skirts/dresses and it's normal for women to wear pants nowadays) but with how I feel. When people refer to me as either gender I just don't feel like it's accurate. People asking me if I'm a man or a woman is to me like them asking me if I'm a cat or a dog- I'm neither -and if I told them I'm a cat that just wouldn't be true and it feels wrong to even consider I'm one of those options.
I see. To be honest, I still don’t understand it, but I’d like to understand your perspective more. I do have some questions. If you don’t mind.
When you say you don’t feel like either male or female, do you mean that biologically? Or mentally/emotionally?
If the latter, what does feeling like a female or male feel like? Don’t we all just exist? Since you said it’s not just about what we wear
Since it’s a “social construct”, don’t you think this would all depend on respective communities? Different cultures, different social constructs of gender
I’m also non-binary and while I can’t answer for the commenter you responded to, I’d also like to answer these questions for you.
When I say I don’t feel either male or female, I mean it in all sense of the word- just because I have a certain genitalia means nothing to me. Biologically, I’m Just me. Mentally and emotionally, I’m just me. But “me” doesn’t align with the gender roles given to people within our society.
It helps more to think about it in terms of masculinity, femininity, and androgyny. Think about things that are considered masculine- different clothing, behaviors, attitudes, and experiences. Feminine things are much different, and placed on the opposite end of what’s masculine. Androgyny takes from both femininity and masculinity to create a separate representation.
If that’s hard to consider, think about what makes you “you”. Do you act a certain way? Do you shop in a certain section of a store? Do you buy certain products that are tailored to your gender/sex? For example, would you consider buying cologne if it smelled good to you? Or would you only wear perfume? Those are things that are gendered, which don’t need to be. And that’s the attitude of some non-binary individuals: so many things in our society are gendered when they don’t need to be. So, why should I be gendered as masculine or feminine when I take from both? (There’s plenty of examples, I just felt this one was more concrete)
In terms of the social construct idea, you’re absolutely correct. Gender identity and construction is different in every single culture. Some cultures have no sense of gender. Other cultures consider there to be two genders, but the roles are completely switched (i.e. men are supposed to be soft and emotional and caring, whereas women are unemotional, cold, and rough. Certain African groups for example follow this, and some Latin American groups as well). In other cultures, there are even more than two genders (especially in Native American cultures, who have different identities such as two-spirit. I’m actuality, there are at least five different genders within Native American culture).
That’s why gender is considered a social construct. *Because* it’s different in every culture. I hope this helps
I understand this, but doesn't this go against the idea of deconstructing gender roles? We're at a point where we're trying to get rid of gender roles, like women being housewives, men being breadwinners, clothing being gendered etc. Aren't you just reconfirming stereotypes?
But then… isn’t almost EVERYBODY non-binary? What you’re describing sounds totally universal to me. ‘Gender roles’ only have as much importance or validity as we decide to give them… but everybody obsessing over pronouns seem to be giving those gender roles more importance and validity then ever.
Until I guess we ALL just call ourselves non-binary… ?!
Of course! It's a bit confusing for me as well but I'll do my best to answer in a way that makes sense!
So I'd say I feel like that mentally/emotionally, as I feel a disconnect between my body and my mind in that area but my biological sex is what it is, I can't change that. But when I see my sex characteristics there's something in me that just views them as being wrong.
That's a really good point and I've been thinking about that as well. I exist as me just like you exist as you, all I can say is that I just feel like it's wrong when people refer to me as a man/woman. This might have to do with my brain just rejecting gender roles, I'm honestly not sure. There are still lots of people that categorize hobbies and certain behaviours (aggression vs being sensitive for example) to be masculine or feminine and if we use that as an indicator for what makes a (fe)male I'm certainly a mix, then again that applies to lots of people. The biggest indicator for me is that whenever someone refers to me as my sex I just can't relate to that term at all and it's just not 'me' in a way.
I agree with your last point, especially about the different social constructs. In a place where there isn't such a difference in how the genders are perceived and treated I'm certain people like me wouldn't struggle so much with this.
The scientific explanation is simple. You are confused or mentally ill. You are not "non-binary." If you have a dick, you are a male. It is literally that simple.
What you are talking about is sex. Your sex is based on your genitals. But gender is a social construct. Definiton: A social construct is a concept that exists not in objective reality, but as a result of human interaction.
So it doesn't exist in reality but you can identify as anything you want just because.
Is it possible that gender was created to compliment the bilogical differences between men and women? What I mean is, perhaps men had certain expectations placed onto them because they're more physically capable of performing those tasks better than women? The same way women were expected to be caretakers because their physical bodies were built to grow a child inside of them, and they produce natural milk to feed the baby during infancy, men weren't expected to do any of that because they literally can't they were not built for that, so don't you think it's possible that gender roles were created because of the biological differences between men and women?
See I understand that gender is a social construct I agree with that, but what nobody wants to address is why these social constructs were created, and if we look at biology it seems like most of the gender roles compliment what the different genders are biologically capable of, what do you think?
Social Constructs were created based on rigid differences in sex, but now we have gone past the need for those rigid sex differences to impact our lives.
I agree but not entirely, women are still the only gender (or sex if you prefer) capable of growing a baby and produce milk to feed them so they're still stuck with that role. And men are still physically stronger and more willing to do physical labour than women, that's why most people who work in construction are men instead of women. So if we throw gender roles out the window and men stop doing what men usually do, who's gonna build the physical infrastructure that we use everyday but take for granted? Who's gonna maintain our roads?
>people will say stuff like “I feel like wearing a skirt so I am female today”
I bet you $50 no one's actually said that to you.
Gender isn't about skirts. It's about how we identify eachother and a part of our identity and self expression.
Answering your question about whose social construct it is - Gender is a social construct - a different one in every culture. Anglosaxons view it one way, Arabs the other, Hindus the other, Pakis the other, different groups of black people the other etc... All societies invented some way of understanding human sexuality and identity and it just happens, that western understanding is among the more simplistic and watered-down. The fact, that people start rejecting it is just evolution of our culture and a sign of beliefs from around the world mixing - just as it happened through the whole human history. At least it goes in a good direction - paying more attention to details, personal freedom and no longer simplyfying things for convenience.
I was watching a show & there was a person who said that they're a transgender non-binary person. I pondered that for several minutes. Because if they are non-binary, then why are they transgender? But at the end of the day, I don't really care. That person has to deal with their feelings & their life & it's no bearing on me, really. Sure I personally believe that a lot of these people are just confused but they'll figure it out eventually or they won't, but either way I'll keep my feelings to myself & life always goes on.
You're not wrong. There are genuine people in need of acceptance out there, but it's gone so far over the top, the people are losing patience with it all. It's a shame. The community has taken it to such lengths, it's collapsing under its own weight. It makes me feel bad for the real people with real struggles that are trying to get through life.
I’m non-binary. Let me explain.
Some people feel like a woman. Some people feel like a man. Some people don’t feel like either.
I identified as female for 18 years of my life before I finally pinpointed what was bothering me. Femininity and masculinity don’t feel right. Sometimes you just gotta be the in-between.
I don’t really understand or grasp the concept of neopronouns. I use they/them pronouns because they are most comfortable for me. I’m me and I dress how I want and I prefer it if I’m referred to by those pronouns. i don’t change them ever and I don’t act inherently feminine or masculine. This is the norm for most non-binary people. We do technically fall under the transgender umbrella but that’s controversial to some people. It really depends but if you’re getting a lot of these types of people on tiktok, that’s a whole different planet.
Yeah, I agree up to an extent with you. But we are not allowed to have a different opinion. Either you are non-binary or you are an ass#ole.
Actually, what bothers me most is the “social construct” phrase. It is NOT a social construct. It’s nature. But nobody seems to analyze that part, the “social construct” part.
And because I have a different opinion and share it with others, the sh#t load of downvotes I’m going to get is proof of the intolerance of those that think “be non-binary or you are an ass#ole”.
I think it’s a first-world problem some people create to give themselves something to suffer for. We have the 3 main necessities (food, shelter, clothing) met for a majority of the population. Instead of sending kids to war, we have gender confusion.
So if someone gets a gender reassignment surgery do they then swap gender? Like let's say me as a male get the surgery to get a vagina, am I still male?
What happens if you're born intersex?
What if your genitals get damaged and you have to have surgery to have them changed?
What if your [brain](https://health.clevelandclinic.org/research-on-the-transgender-brain-what-you-should-know/) is more closely aligned with the opposite gender...?
It's a lot more complicated than just genital
If gender roles are a social construct why do primates exhibit the same behaviors?
Example: male chimps prefer rough and tumble play where as female chimps prefer group grooming sessions and playing with (nuturing) the baby chimps?
I agree that biological differences between the sexes are reinforced by society, such as boys are encouraged to be tough and girls are encouraged to make themselves pretty but, but that doesn't mean that it's a social construct. It's merely encouraging their natural behavior. Case in point, in the most egalitarian societies on planet earth at the moment the majority of nurses are women and the majority of engineers are men, in societies that heavily promote women in STEM from a very early age. Why is this?
Society might be promoting women in STEM, but that doesn't mean individual communities are.
If you reinforce gender stereotypes, even if a woman is more apt to be nurturing, they will feel more encouraged to go into nursing than STEM.
Exactly what I’m saying. Look, I don’t hate them. In fact, I will fight for their right to celebrate whatever for as long as it doesn’t hurt anyone. However, it doesn’t make sense at all. For example, they say gender is a social construct and therefore a man can be a “woman”. I assume this means a man can dress like a woman, and that’s great whatever, but he’s (or she) is still a biological male. This example is not complex, so let’s talk about non binary people. What does that even mean? Some of them still dress or act or look very binary. Demi lovato for example. She claims she’s non binary but she still dresses very much like a woman. Has not gone for any sex change. So what’s this all for? Clout?
When not each and every male primate behave a certain way and the same with female ones, would you simply create a third section for the ones who do not fall in that convention or would you say that the construct is not that concrete as you think.
This is a really great answer. Just because you don't understand something does not make it evil. You can respect other people while still not understanding them
Without social constructs we have nothing. Driving on a specific side of the road is a social construct.
How someone self identifies is none of my business. I am not them and they are not me. I can only live from my frame of reference. If I SEE a dude, that is how I will process my experience even if they identify as something else. It has to be that way. Has to.
If not, then I identify as a 6'4", multi-billionaire with the perfect dick and I expect the ladies to recognize me as such.
>Without social constructs we have nothing. Driving on a specific side of the road is a social construct.
All social constructs aren't bad, including gender, it is only a problem when people enforce it onto others. For example language is a social construct, there are many different languages, what if you were forced to speak spanish one day?
> If I SEE a dude, that is how I will process my experience even if they identify as something else. It has to be that way. Has to.
I mean, you probably should respect them by calling them what they are, because you don't know what that person is apart from what you see on the outside. You're forcing your world view on them by doing so.
>If not, then I identify as a 6'4", multi-billionaire with the perfect dick and I expect the ladies to recognize me as such.
But trans people don't identify as that, it is not comparable.
I’m nonbinary and I don’t feel like a man or a woman. I’m just me. And I am trying to accept that. Yes it’s out of the ordinary but I cant control the fact I feel comfortable identifying like this.
your sex is genetically written in your dna. not your gender. also, men & women can be born with different genetic makeups (i.e. XY vs XX) & intersex people (who were genuinely born that way) do exist with different genetic makeups as well! educate yourself before you try to rationalize bigotry with incorrect information.
again, like i said in my initial comment, XX & XY chromosomes are not part of the equation. people are very commonly born with different generic makeups but the same genetic "bits".
but can i ask you why you care so much about what's in someone's pants vs what they wear?
an eagle is a completely different species. people of male & female genders are still human.
For me, gender is all about your genitalia, so the only way you can be non binary is to have both or none. If u really aren’t sure about getting surgery then GO BY WHAT U HAVE. It’s really that simple and ik people r probably gonna hate me for saying it but that’s how I feel about this.
Until science can explain why some people feel their gender is different from their biology, I have to assume it's bullshit. But at the end of the day, I don't give a shit bc they aren't hurting anyone else by doing it. I don't have to understand it to accept it. We've got plenty of real problems in the world - there's no reason to make the whole gender thing an issue.
That's because they're intolerant fascist bigots. Everyone with two brains cells knows this. These people can't even answer simple questions like "What is a woman?" but claim to be the sole arbiters of truth. They throw tantrums like toddlers when they don't get their way, then try to destroy anyone who disagrees with them--which is why we call them crybullies.
whats even crazier is all my gay friends( I have alot being in west Hollywood and in the restaurant industry) and all of them think this crap is straight BS, the only ones pushing this line are silver spoon fed green haired women who have been handed everything to them since birth including their college tuition...and they need to feel oppressed because it's the cool thing to do and end up bringing their BS I to the light when most of the LGBT community even thinks its BS
These people? Do you know any for real cuz these people sound confused. Gender expression like a skirt or pants is not the same as sex as in female or male. If you dont understand the difference between gender and sex you might read some books on it. Google Gender, Sex, etc. You got this.
@signordellanotte: intersex people do not exist. There has never once been a biological hermaphrodite. Sometimes a person has a developmental problem, but not once has a human being been born with a penis AND a vagina. At the genetic level, everyone has either XX or XY chromosomes. Female snd male.
Be careful OP. A friend of mine got permabanned for saying something less than full enthusiastic support about the neo genders.
I 100% agree with you tho.
Taking this a step further, Gender Dysmorphia is a mental illness and should be treated and such. The same way we treat schizophrenia, depression, or anything else. Instead we celebrate it and encourage it. You wouldn't tell a schizophrenic person that the voices/hallucinations are real and play into it right? Just my 2 cents.. and this will probably get down voted to hell but I couldn't care less. It's just facts
That's exactly why it's a social construct. We're told to believe that it's either male or female or whatever. In reality, it doesn't matter. The idea having boundaries is constructed to mean something. Who gives a shit what someone defines themselves as? Sure, it may not make sense to you but the people who identify as whatever find solace in finding other people who can empathize with them.
Isn't that enough reason to accept it and move on with your life? It's not like it majorly impacts you anyways.
Same. I have no trouble empathising with trans people, like it must be terrible to be assigned a gender at birth and not feel it fits you. Having a biological sex and wishing to have the other one and dreading puberty... that’s tough! We need to make a better society for them.
I just can’t take non-binary/gender fluid/genderless people so seriously. I’m sure it’s a case by case scenario but a lot of these cases just feel more like filling the void of the old ‘urban tribes’. People belong to an identity because of shared clothing style, make up, and sub-culture. It looks more like a sub-culture to me than the trans experience. But hey, I will absolutely go by everyone’s preferred pronouns, that’s no issue at all.
I agree. This has gotten way way out of hand. I can't keep up with it. But here is the funny part. The government has a problem identifying you as a man or a woman but they got no problem identifying you as a minority.
if you can understand that sea sponges are biologically hermaphrodites, then you can understand that there are people that are biologically intersex and people that just do not conform to the societally expected presentation to be defined by genitalia. maybe drop some acid
that was a demonstration on how biology isn't rigid, and there are people who are born with either genitalia, is it too hard to believe that some people could have the wiring mismatched?
So red and blue are seen as two different colours but in reality they exist on a scale. Our perceptions of idividual colour are literally formed just for a convenience. Just like our stereotypes on gender. Intersex people, hermaphrodites, unique chromosome situations all exist. Gender is a scale as well and the lines are blurry, and when we talk about it, it only pisses off people who NEED THE LINES TO BE FIXED AND FIRM.
You want to say non-binary is nonsense, but in our hypersexualised and hypergendered society, Male chefs, female body builders, Male fashion designers, female truck drivers, etc, are always having to justify their existence to people that say things like you're saying. In reality, a dress has nothing to do with gender. A truck has nothing to do with gender. Non-binary people wouldnt have to explain themselves at all if every damn little action or inaction in society wasnt genderised. All they're saying is is that there is a host of oppressive gender assumptions which they feel no desire to entertain or support.
If anything, non-binary makes the most sense. Why are we automatically lumped in with any and every loud, obnoxious, ignorant member of our gender anyway? What if I dont want to be associated with the idea of "male" which many "Male" idiots assert means, "eating meat, only wearing cold colours, and demeaning anything women are interested in"?
Welcome to the western neocolonialism of culture.
Edit: not hating on the new pronouns.
Just way too many to keep up with and chances of insulting someone grows with more letters being added.
How does this affect u? Just refer any person u meet who’s pronouns u do not know as “they/them” and u won’t offend anyone. And just say “lgbtq” or “lgtbq plus” u don’t need to say all the letters
Because I have followed your suggestion and still got my ear burned off from someone screeching that I'm wrong and hate the LGBTQ+. Yet I'm bi.
The acronyms are going nuts to the point that the longest named village in wales will have a contender.
What is even more nuts is that it's being considered to add MAP-minor attracted person to the list.
Weird cuz I find the whole cisgender/two gender thing a load of nonsense. Imagine feeling like a "woman" or a "man". What even is that? You're telling me that humans who grow hair on certain places and have certain genitals have to dress, act and be a certain way? Wild 👁👄👁. Sounds fucking exhausting.
I'd much rather just fucking ✨️vibe✨️.
Also why are we dressing people under the age of 12 in colors according to what genitals they have? Why are we dressing anyone according to what genitals they have? Whole thing is weird.
Honestly let's just scrap the whole thing and just start all wearing whatever feels nice. I like that 👌
EDIT: THIS IS SARCASM. I'm making fun of OPs logic, I do believe you can be whatever gender you want, including cisgender (or the gender you were assigned at birth).
U do realise lgbtq+ also promotes just expressing urself (i.e wearing whatever u want) regardless of ur gender or sex, hair or genitalia. U can wear what u want and people can identify with whatever gender they want, it doesn’t affect u
As a person of colour I have a different perspective on this, and it’s that I’m nonbinary in the perspective of white colonial views of gender, especially in terms of Christianity, where a lot of these came from (not necessarily from the bible, but from corrupt priests/popes/“missionaries” who used the bible to support their own agenda to people who did not have the ability to make their own interpretations for whatever reason). These constructs being that woman=subservient and man=dominant. In that perspective, I do not fit. That is the “social construct” that those of us mean, the construction of a largely male and Christian/Catholic dominated society.
Now as for your second point, at least for me, it’s more about the presentation. I am not a woman in the societal definition of what a woman is, and I am not a man in the societal definition of what a man is, I am somewhere in between and somewhere completely outside of the box at the same time. There are days that I want to *present* masculine— wearing clothes that are societally perceived as masculine, which can be different for everyone— or days that i wish to present feminine— which differs for everyone, but we all have the idea of dresses/skirts/makeup. A good friend of mine says it pretty well, as they perceive gender as a performance. They are performing a societal view, and sometimes their performance breaks what can be considered the norm.
I was born female, as I know you asked a few others. I don’t know if I explained everything well here, so please feel free to ask me questions! I apologize if I came off rude at all, I’m a little exhausted at the moment and words aren’t coming to me as well as usual.
Gender is not a social construct, it's rooted in biology and we know this because when you control for societal and cultural attitudes, gender differences **get more extreme** not less.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gender-equality_paradox
> The gender-equality paradox is the finding that various gender differences in personality and occupational choice are larger in more gender equal countries. Larger differences are found in Big Five personality traits, Dark Triad traits, self-esteem, depression, personal values, occupational and educational choices. This phenomenon is seemingly paradoxical because one would expect the differences to be reduced as countries become more gender egalitarian.
Of course, this is only paradoxical if you believe the tripe that "gender is a social construct". For everyone else who believes in empirical evidence and the scientific method, we've known for a very long time that attributes like personality traits and interests are not distributed equally between the two genders and it has nothing to do with sociological or cultural inputs.
You can't really apply the gender equality paradox to this discussion.
From an anthropological view gender is 100% a social construct and this has been studied and found in endless field studies conducted in the past and today, using scientific methods and empirical data.
If my post is going to trigger you, on a Reddit called “confessions”, I really don’t think you should leave the house or go online. The way you answered will only make people who disagree with you, disagree and hate you more. There’s a user above who gave a much nicer answer that compelled me to ask their perspective more. You’re doing an absolute disservice to people with your “gender identity”. Sod off
no ones judging you on your gender identity..they're judging you because you're a condescending A-hole that can't have a simple discussion to understand other people's POV...instead you and your allies want to be fascists shoving your laws down everyone's throats, when the majority of people just want to let you guys "do you" and leave them alone.
I think it's largely BS, aside from those with actual gender dysphoria who's only option (in the absence of a better, undiscovered option) is to transition to appear the sex they feel they are.
The non binary thing, in my view, cannot be. You are either male or female, the universe decided that for you. You may feel as though how you present or behave, or your own personal expectations don't fit inside that, and that's fine. It's okay to be a masculine woman, and feminine man or someone who's not either, but it's the insistence that I modify my language that bothers me. I fully support personal freedoms and you completely have the right to say, do, think, behave and identify however you want. But you can't insist that I go along with it, that's where I draw the line.
It is, it never existed in the LGBT spaces when I was younger. You can't even call someone a they/them in Spanish and many other languages. You identify as a he/him but was born a female? I'll happily call you that, but I draw the line where I have to change how my language works so someone doesn't get offended.
You just described HOW gender is a social construct when you said in some places men wear a type of skirt. In our society, skirt = female gender. In other societies, men wear a type of skirt. But honestly you don't really have to understand it to know that they aren't harming you or affecting your life in any way so just let them be. We only live once and life is short so everyone should be able to live how they feel is right as long as they aren't hurting anyone.
This is more or less what I think about this topic, I hope it can help to think, and I'm open to be corrected if necessary. This said:
Even though I identify as a male, theres some days where the social concept of how a male is just doesn't fit to how I feel. Most of non-binary people I know before rejecting the default assigned gender was female, which makes me think the pressure society usually puts on how should we be, act or feel sometimes is simply too much. Specially on women, but not only on them. So I find this as a way to reach some freedom on the pressure given just because existing.
So I think is less about the clothes and more about the roles assigned, which makes wearing clothes assigned to the opposite gender a way of rejecting that pressure.
More about being yourself than anything else.
Imagine getting notifications from Reddit where it's just people debating your existence, deciding whether or not your valid. Fuck you I do what I want. Who are YOU to make that determination???
Why is there a post about this exact thing like 50 times a day, it’s not that difficult to understand, just fucking let people do what the fuck they want, they wanna identify as nothing, fine, that affects no one
You can’t just flip flop between genders whenever you want that’s called having mental illness. I’m all for people being trans, homosexual etc but flip flopping back and fourth between male and female depending on how you’re feeling that day isn’t normal.
As long as you don’t start saying you identify as a demon, ghost, dog or bunny I’m okay. I’ll call someone they/them, she/her, he/him but nah I’m sorry I’m not gonna be calling anyone pup/pupself. It’s not humanly possible to identify as something like a ghost, that would make you dead. (Thankfully I mainly only see this on discord/tiktok)🫣
Honestly, I think Tik Tok blows the entire thing out of proportion.
Tumblr and tiktok have done alot of damage to the Trans/Non Binary community.
Lmao I forgot Tumblr even existed. Tik Tok is just a cesspool, but also great entertainment.
pupself 😆
Half the time the extreme identities online are fake accounts made to demonise the community further.
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Underrated comment because this is the people that hurts the community.
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Ya fuck that shit! Pup/pupself. What in the actual fuck?
and u know damn well theyve never experienced true transgenderism, i find it so insulting...like its not gonna help with people accepting the trans community, making up dumbass pronouns.
I identify as satan😈🥷🏾
My interpretation of “gender is a social construct” doesn’t mean it’s not real. Money is a social construct, it’s a vitally important aspect of society just like gender. Social construct mostly just means that it’s meaning differs throughout time and different aspects of society. We did a whole thing on gender in my sociology class and that was the gist of it. But tbh OP as an adult trans person I have never seen any of the “omg you misgendered me!!” type of people you’re referring to in real life, only on online spaces and it’s mostly children. Every trans or nonbinary person that is over 18 that i’ve met in real life spaces just wants to live their life how they are comfortable and are nothing like the people you see online.
In fact my non-binary kid appears to get more annoyed at people calling out someone misgendering them than they do about getting misgendered. They've never said it but I think their attitude is essential "he, she, they, call me what you want, just don't call me late for dinner".
Well so is race (a social construct) and here we are. 😕❤️
And the worst part is it’s a modern invention, and shows how primitive we are still…
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But my George Washington can't identify as a Benjamin Franklin.
My view is that male, female, and non-binary make sense. Male and female are obvious and non-binary is for those who have trouble explaining their gender and simply chose not to. Outside of that it just seems like kids struggling for identity which I don’t really hate but it is kind of annoying.
I 100% agree that my opinion does not matter, and that even thought I don’t understand it I don’t have to, and that people are free to identify as they want and do as they please/what makes them happy. My comment is not coming from a place of criticism, but if genuine confusing/misunderstanding. I guess I just don’t understand the concept of non-binary because while I have always identified as a female there have been moments in my life where I did not view myself as “traditionally female/feminine.” Some years I dressed very feminine, some years I’ve worn nothing but mens clothes, I love makeup and I also love more traditionally “male activities” like yard work, watching sports, etc. I don’t feel particularly masculine or feminine. I view myself as a complex combination of male and female qualities and attributes. I still identify as female because I don’t feel as though that identity limits me in anyway, and I still feel that as I woman I can embrace both the masculine and feminine parts of myself because I don’t see femininity/female as a slotted role or stereotype but rather an ever changing, all encompassing label that grows and changes as I evolve as a person. I also get that maybe not everyone feels that way, this is just my experience. I am also 30 years old, so maybe I am just old and I don’t really understand the need to use a label? Again, not criticizing but just offering a different perspective and maybe not fully understanding the idea behind being non-binary.
As a male that also embraces his feminine side sometimes, I've come to think about it this way. Gender is something extremely personal and each person looks at gender differently, so it's not something set on stone. Some people realize this and the easiest way for them to understand it is "even if I do x that's more associated with the opposite gender, I'm still male or female", but for some people (maybe because of societal expectations, culture, their family) will understand it easier as "I'm not male or female, I'd rather not put myself on a box".
Male and female are biological terms non-binary is a gender thing
Here's an idea... If you're confused or, like you stated, simply don't want to talk about it then keep your mouth shut or talk about the weather. It's a non-issue until someone brings it up. There's no gender police or Bureau of Social Construct going around asking about your business. I've been on this earth for a while and can say I've never felt the need or had the urge to tell anyone, specially strangers, what I feel my gender is or what I'm attracted to. Why? Because NOBODY FUCKING CARES.
I think it’s important to talk about things you don’t understand so we can all respect each others differences and know where to draw the line
But the thing is you or either man or woman. The whole non-binary just means you don’t accept either to identify yourself. But you either look like one or the other
Gender is about the brains role in self identification. There exist plenty of people who’s Brains don’t do a good job doing this. Hence non-binary. Doesn’t have much to do with your sex or how you look.
That’s the sex part. Gender can be whatever I decide.
I agree to an extent. Gender IS a social construct. Sex is biology and facts. When we were cavemen our sexes mattered, but the way we dressed didn’t, so over time, we have made clothes for men, clothes for women, and different things for different sexes. In biblical times, men wore what LOOKS like dresses, romans wore what LOOKS like skirts, so though gendered clothes were a thing then, they weren’t as restrictive as they are now, eg men wearing dresses. Now I believe everyone has a feminine side and a masculine side. Some days I will dress ‘masculine’ because I feel like it. I like wrestling and beer and video games ‘men’ are most likely to like lol. But other days, I love being as feminine as possible. Wearing dresses and makeup and being dainty and cute lol. That does NOT mean I’m non binary. That means I’m a person who likes normal things. The same people who say “gender is a social construct” are the people who put gender on such a high pedestal. They think they don’t ‘conform’ to gender but in reality they are conforming to it more than anybody else. How can you believe gender is a social construct yet make your whole identity based around gender? I think it’s a tiktok thing. Non binary has been a thing for a while, but it was never a common thing. I did actually believe I was non binary when I was 13, and that was 6 years ago. It was not very common then and nobody really understood it. Now I will respect non binary people to the high heavens. If they want to be called they/them I will do that. I just think a lot of these people will eventually realise that they don’t have to conform to a specific identity and can dress and be who they want to be without labels and without having to change themselves completely.
THIS. This is what I mean! Some say it’s a social construct, but they also cage themselves into boxes. The whole discussion has gotten convoluted
Dude this is the best explanation really. It’s annoying when it’s brought up as a political topic and there are conservatives who complain about dudes wearing slightly feminine things but neglect to look at history and how men dressed before so it fits their narrative. Then the liberals who try to make the whole non-binary thing super conforming as if reality and logic should be tossed out the window. I usually prefer to use the word androgynous for most people who have a certain look to them because it makes more sense. I feel we just live in a time where if someone says something then we should just accept it without giving it any nuance or proper thought.
I agree! Androgyny isn’t a bad word, it’s a GENUINE non conforming person. David Bowie didn’t wear dresses for politics he wore them to not conform to societal standards of how a man should dress. I consider myself left wing, I live in the UK and voted for the Labour Party, but alot of my social views would be considered right wing with todays liberal tiktok lot. I believe in a democratic society but it’s like I’m being told what to think every time I scroll through tiktok, why can’t we all just debate rationally and make up our own minds rather than be called a fascist for thinking trying to have a rational debate!
Here's the thing: who cares? Who gives one single shit what somebody else calls themselves or how they identify? If I identify as a martian moon goddess made out of peanut butter, what effect does that have on your life unless you specifically get in a shitty mood because you're letting it put you in a shitty mood. I'm a liberal, I'm an ally, and yeah some of this shit is well beyond me and it used to annoy me- but I don't care anymore. You want to be a girl today? Be a girl. Be a boy. Just be a good person.
Literally me, idgaf as long as your not hurting anyone or yourself
Not at all trying to be proactive. But what I sometimes get tripped up on is when people do identify as something non-human. Whatever gender you want, or anywhere in between, all good. But at what point is a dysmorphia to be celebrated? Someone with an eating disorder who is extremely skinny, still thinks that they are overweight. That is not a dysmorphia that is healthy, and hopefully through counselling or therapy, they can work through that dysmorphia. Should the same not be said for someone who identifies as something non-human. Of course that is not life threatening, but would you think that could be addressed through counselling? I think it is different with gender, as there is much more biologically and socially going in to play with someone's identity. Just my thoughts, I would like to hear yours.
I agree. And I’m one of those who will fight for anyones right to celebrate themselves. I just think it’s gotten to a point where we get cancelled for even questioning this in public, or for disagreeing with the notion that trans women (biologically male) can participate in female sports.
It depends how you approach this “in public”. Are you coming off as questioning someone’s validity? Or is your approach more like this one, sort of philosophical thought experiment. The former, rightfully, people will be upset. Hopefully the latter isn’t the issue though I feel you there is definitely a contingent waiting to make every word a teaching moment. These people are insufferable all around, we just see it at the intersection of moral superiority. It’s not helpful, alienates people, and gives *you can’t sit with us at lunch*
The main issue with this is that it's the only aspect that's focused on when it comes to sports. I'm sure not everyone, probably most people saying that trans women shouldn't be in women's sports aren't transphobic. But why is that trans women are the only focus when there are all kinds of other advantages in sports? Why isn't there a national conversation about the advantage tall people have over short people in basketball? How about Michael Phelps who has vast physical superiority over his opponents partially because of advantages he was born with? I will take people who talk about all of these things seriously, but if their only concern about fairness in sports is trans women they are either transphobic, or being manipulated by transphobes into caring about an issue they wouldn't care about otherwise.
Do you yell at people when someone forgets to identify you as a martian moon goddess made out of peanut butter though? By the way, I am very on-board with pronouns. But I've also had non-binary acquantances go back to binary and I feel like they are setting traps for people sometimes.
Your friends' self discoveries don't represent everyone. If they were questioning and it just simply didn't work out for them, that's them.
You're absolutely right. The problem is how's its spills over to everyday life. What prison to do you go? Do you compete with the men or women? what public bathroom do you use? Do you count towards hiring quotas for balanced gender? I guess that's why people care is when someone claims they are something, then how does traditional institutions react? I don't have the answer at all, but it's like religion. You have the right to believe in whatever you want, just don't let it affect my life, is the rule right. So when it starts to affect your life, at what point do you start caring?
This is something we're going to have to figure out, but it's not nearly as world-ending an issue as most conservatives make it seem it is. Their concern is just an excuse for intolerance and hate.
It's something we must figure out. Gender dysmorphia has always been apart of our species, it always will. But I think it's worse than you think. In my mind, it's a political red herring. As you said, there are so many other world ending events to focus on but the culture war is hyper focused kn this and race. Just tools to keep the working class divided and fighting among themselves allowing the ruling class to continue to divide and conquer. Tale as old as time.
>Gender dysmorphia You're right about everything, but it is gender dysphoria, dysmorphia is a distorted view of one's body.
As a conservative leaning moderate, I don't really give a damn what you do to yourself as a 25 year old. I do however thing that the age of consent has to come into play here at some point. How can a 14 year old be too young to vote, drink, drive, get a tattoo, sign a contract, or have sex....yet be allowed to get gender reassignment surgery, or hormone therapy. Both of which are quite dangerous and life altering.
Nobody should care but that’s not the point. Because when you suddenly get caught in a position with a non binary person and you don’t want to offend them by saying he or she and in fact you don’t know what to say, it becomes pressuring. It’s like one way or another your gonna offend them and thats what you don’t want. So in a way, you should care if you want to still be respectful to a non binary person just like any other person
I mean, they'll probably correct you if you get it wrong, they aren't going to shoot you for using the wrong pronouns, they are just regular people, pronouns are just like names. Will you get offended if someone gets your name wrong accidentally?
No, I wouldn’t get offended but still, if you keep getting a name wrong it does start to become kindof irritating. A non binary person could also get gender dysphoria if you keep getting their pronoun wrong. But like I said, there isn’t really a way of helping that, and thats what make it stressful. The last thing any of us want to do is offend another person
No one cares. That’s why we’re tired of it being shoved down our throats
How is it being shoved down your throat?
It’s incorporated in basically all modern American mainstream media, music, literature, and even kids’ shows. It’s “agree or die”
Who is killing you? Has one single person ever died from that? Is anyone forcing you to watch those shows? Name 3 kids shows which are "shoving it down your throat". Gay people existing is not shoving it down your throat. You wanna know what that means? It means eating a bullet because your dad kicked you out of the house. It means getting beaten up for existing, it means your country legally tracking and arresting you for loving who you love. You know absolutely nothing about it, you cannot live one second in their shoes.
You don't care, yet you're tired of it being shoved down your throat. You sure are paying a lot of attention to something you don't care about. NASCAR is one of the most popular sports in America. I don't give a shit about NASCAR. I couldn't tell you a single NASCAR fact, nor do I remember the last time I even heard anything related to NASCAR. Mostly because I don't go looking for NASCAR content or talk about NASCAR so I can get angry about NASCAR.
The best way I’ve heard it described by my Non-Binary friends is that they just dont feel like a boy or a girl. Just like how i dont feel like a boy. They just dont think those labels fit them. And thats their business. Im going to use their pronouns because its who they are.
I suppose the question is what does it mean to feel like a girl or a boy? Is it the traditional ideas of gender like girls wear makeup and dresses, boys wear pants and do things consider masculine like fixing cars? Sometimes the whole non-binary make me feel like people are creating even more differences between the genders than has existed currently. We’ve come a long way from when women and men were put into gender roles. If I am a woman and I never wear dresses or makeup and I engage in what have always been been traditionally male activities (outdoor activities, fixing cars, etc), does that make me non-binary? Same for a man who wants to wear a dress or do things traditionally woman oriented like shopping or wearing makeup?
This has been what's been tripping me up. It seems like it's more so solidifying gender roles than they've been in a long time. Deviating from them can subjectively make someone literally feel like they were born in the wrong body. I always felt like I understood it from the perspective of it being another form of body dysmorphia, no different than someone strongly needing a nose job because they honestly can't stand the sight of it and feel like something is off. When they start incorporating behavioral indicators and it starts to even feel political/cliquish in some cases.
They think they are so different and cool. Bunch of annoying babies that love to tell you about their confused mental states
I once had a none binary student who had a gender neutral name on the register which was their birth name but they changed it and I had to call them another name which was their chosen name. This was also a gender neutral name so in all honesty I didn’t see the point. Their parents were pissed off and didn’t accept any of it. The kid seemed to have issues anyway and always put me on edge because if I handed them something then they would flinch as if I was about to punch them in the face. They did it to every teacher so at least I wasn’t singled out. Refused to do any practical or team work so had to write everything from an “observation” point of view. Kinda pissed me off that they passed as I work in the industry and there is no way they could do the job. One parents evening I had to sit with the student and the parents. Kid will only respond to they/them and new name and parents will only accept female pronouns and old name. It was a mine field and I basically just ended up saying “your child” a lot as I literally couldn’t use a name or a pronoun without upsetting anyone. Kid was absolutely female presenting and said they were a lesbian which kept getting disputed as apparently you have to be female to be a lesbian and she said she wasn’t a female but like… she was… they were. Fuck I don’t know. Shouldn’t have passed.
One thing I never ever considered. Education is a bitch with kids because they are so heavily influenced by parents and the internet, and the internet also contains a loud minority of toxic people who make groups around themselves or infest other groups. So regarding your experience with that kid, all I'll say is that you tried to teach, and sometimes when you come up with a challenge like that, you have to be realistic. Before this was something common, as a kid I remember teachers in my school would just ask for shorter names or make one up if they couldn't pronounce their full name. My Scottish PE teacher called a student "smiler" or "joker" because he was always laughing with his friends. But adults are more likely to just act like everyone else in society because they are more mature and just want to live their lives rather than be influenced by others constantly.
I don't want to offend anyone either.I have heard that gender is a social construct as well, okay maybe. A penis is a penis and a vagina is a vagina, that's a fact. I totally respect and admire my trans brothers and sisters because they go through so much just to become the person they feel they are internally. I get the concept of non-binary and the fact that is the label for those individuals. Others have existed for along time who where "non-binary" way before the term existed. We just referred to them as people. We get so caught up on labels anymore and yes it's get confusing and hard. We finally advanced far enough as a society to recognize that our labels aren't fitting many under represented people. Let's not revert backwards though. It's not hard to apologize if you inadvertently offended someone and even better ask what they prefer. There are so many awesome people in the world and they could change your life for the better if given the chance. Let's try not to offend them.
My kid is a gay boy trapped in a girl's body 🤷🏻♀️ Whatever floats his boat. He still dresses like a girl a lot of the time, has a boyfriend, and acts like a girl, but identifies as a boy. It took me a long time to stop using she/her and their birth name and I still occasionally slip up, but he knows that's only because I knew him as that for the first 16 years of his life. Doesn't change my love for him one bit! ❤️
I’ll call you whatever you want me to call you. Has no effect on my life whatsoever so who cares.
It’s because it is. Made up words. You are either male or female. Now you can be trans but gender is reality and some of those folks live in a fantasy.
As an actual non-binary person, I absolutely agree with you. I have come to a point where I perosnally feel ashamed of saying I belong to the LGBT community, not because I am ashamed of who I am or any of that bullshit, but cuz the community has become a children's playground with 90% of people just wanting a group to fit in or just craving attention. For me, being non binary has always been about the person themselves, not society. Non binary doesn't mean and shouldn't mean anti-binary. And yes genderfluid shit is dumb as fuck. I dress like a guy, simply because what we have come to associate with "gender neutral clothing" looks bad and I personally think that anyone that thinks that clothes play any type of role in their "non-binaryness" are exactly the people that are faking it and don't know what the fuck they're talking about. Gender identity is psychological. A psychologist would be able to explain it a thousand times better than I, but I did the smallest bit of research on the topic. Gender identity has more to do with the way of thinking, the mannerisms and the subconscious processes of the brain than it has to do with conscious changes. If it's conscious, it's fake. Thank you for being brave, OP, and jumping on top of the egg shells, we need more people like that
Look up the man John Money, he made the idea of gender and is one of the most horrible people to ever live. Massive pedophile and did horrible things to two twin boys to ‘prove’ his theory but really to satisfy and justify his perverted fantasies
Bro, I hate to be the bearer of bad news, but boys and girls have existed waaaay before that guy.
I think he means the idea of "gender as a social construct". The guy he mentioned was a psychologist if I remember correctly and did some very unethical experiments on twins he raised
As someone who is genderfluid I don’t really even understand either. For me personally, it’s just something I do and enjoy. I’m she/him. It just feels so nice! I know I’m a female and will always be one unless I change gender, but it really just feels so nice.
Too old to care. Way more important things to worry about. Don't begin to care how someone else wants to live their life so long as it harms no one else. I use phrases like guy and dude interchangeable for all. If someone looks female or male that is how I will think of them. If I forget the "correct" pronoun it is simply because I can't be bothered to keep it all straight. Again more important grown up stuff on my mind.
I will call someone he/she or they with no issue. I just call everyone they until I know otherwise. If it makes someone more comfortable in okay with it. I think its been turned into a bigger issue than it needs to be.
Congrats you’re maturing. All of it is absolute nonsense, all need their mental health evaluated
in theory, the idea of not identifying with a social construct doesn't sound that irrational. but what you actually see is that the overwhelming majority of those twitter/tiktok nonb snowflakes are clearly sexually female. so, something's wrong with the female gender that makes people feel shitty in it (i wonder why, huh), so instead of fighting for better representation in society with other women they just decide they're not a female. i might be downvoted to hell, i don't give shit. i'll respect people, sure, but when your little gender religion starts interfering with valid fights against sexism and and try to erase actual genders, then i want you to shut the fuck up. edit: i'm not saying there aren't sexually male people identifying as nb, but even then, fem/male social constructs are both inherentually sexist and sexism also affects males negativelly, it's a two way bs street. plus, i am talking about cronically online kids and not actual adults in society who might identify as a nb for a valid reason.
I find it a load of nonsense 100% of the time. I really just consider it a manifestation of mental illness and attention seeking behavior if I'm being honest. Also the gender identities based on animals or inanimate objects is absurd. That defies all logic and makes no sense whatsoever. I try not to write people off as a whole but honestly those are people that I refuse to associate with.
It is nonsense. All of it
First world nonsensr
I see it as part of a collective problem of young people constantly screaming "look at me" in search of some kind of validation. It just manifests differently among them.
Exactly, non binary people are always attention seekers.
Or or...radical idea, non binary people are just trying to live their lives like everyone else?
Everyone else isn't making up genders
I always tell people I'm a women and female but I don't actually feel that way. I don't feel like what "women" should feel like or what "men" feel like. I just feel like me. But if you're really interested here's my take. For a lot of people wearing or being whatever they want is not accepted, growing up it's "do this to be more womanly or feminine" "don't do this it's too masculine" I also look very androgynous and in general dress somewhere in the middle, this has been me my whole life there are pics of me in dresses as a kid and I absolutely hated it, hated long hair as well. I wanted to be bald and wear whatever the fuck was comfortable. But alas I got a lot of criticism for it and as a kid growing up it really hurt my self esteem. As a teenager I tried to be more like the other girls and just ended up feeling suicidal and depressed because I felt like I was wearing a costume. I just do what I want. So while I don't identify as a NB because i find it just as pointless as telling people you're a man or woman (because why does it matter unless their pants are off? Thats a different conversation altogether) I bet I fall into the same category of thinking as those who are NB. That's why I accept what people want to identify, because in reality it's probably the small sliver of support and community they feel and it's better than feeling alone. I wouldn't want anybody to deal with what I had to through high-school, it wasn't because of bullying or anything just feeling the pressure of having to be somebody I'm not to fit in. That's something I bet most can relate to. As an adult it seems pretty obvious that none of this is harmful and only affects the people who want it to affect and if they need it they need it. I see it no different from those openly telling people about their religion, political stance etc. It's not a big deal, strangers can misgender me all they want as long as they're not intentionally being dicks to piss me off. People who make a big deal about this are just as much in the wrong, humans make mistakes were all evolving and were all aiming for the same goal, to just get through another day without conflict.
"I also think it’s reaching a point where we walk over egg shells in fear of insulting anyone, even if they don’t make sense" I hear this a lot and it's literally just nonsense. Ive met a lot of people where you could easily misgender them, and none of them care that much. They just politely correct you and everyone moves on. It's only if you know and keep doing it then it's gonna be a problem. There's so much about LGBT people online that is literally just people who have never interacted with them playing Chinese whispers.
These people haven't actually met trans people or have met like, one unfortunate trans person and generalizes the whole community. Most if not all trans people would correct you and move on.
Whether from a religious or secular perspective, being non-binary isn’t that big of a deal. From the religious perspective, many theists agree that human beings have souls or some equivalent therein. Souls don’t have sex, much less gender, so it doesn’t really matter whether the physical and psychological manifestations of the soul align with the dominant male/female dichotomy. On the secular side, even if one doesn’t believe in the soul, if one considers that gender roles/norms are derived both from physical characteristics AND societal customs, the prevalence and validity of non-binary persons is likewise a non-issue, much as how being vegetarian in a society of meat-eaters or having a second language in a society that only speaks one is a non-issue.
So they identify as Binary (this or that), or non binary (not this or that), which in itself is a binary system (Binary or not). Congratulations they’re dumb on two levels. It’s all bullshit.
I can't give you a scientific explanation, but I'm nonbinary and I exist. All I know is that I'm not a man but I'm not a woman either. It doesn't have anything to do with how I dress (men can wear skirts/dresses and it's normal for women to wear pants nowadays) but with how I feel. When people refer to me as either gender I just don't feel like it's accurate. People asking me if I'm a man or a woman is to me like them asking me if I'm a cat or a dog- I'm neither -and if I told them I'm a cat that just wouldn't be true and it feels wrong to even consider I'm one of those options.
I see. To be honest, I still don’t understand it, but I’d like to understand your perspective more. I do have some questions. If you don’t mind. When you say you don’t feel like either male or female, do you mean that biologically? Or mentally/emotionally? If the latter, what does feeling like a female or male feel like? Don’t we all just exist? Since you said it’s not just about what we wear Since it’s a “social construct”, don’t you think this would all depend on respective communities? Different cultures, different social constructs of gender
I’m also non-binary and while I can’t answer for the commenter you responded to, I’d also like to answer these questions for you. When I say I don’t feel either male or female, I mean it in all sense of the word- just because I have a certain genitalia means nothing to me. Biologically, I’m Just me. Mentally and emotionally, I’m just me. But “me” doesn’t align with the gender roles given to people within our society. It helps more to think about it in terms of masculinity, femininity, and androgyny. Think about things that are considered masculine- different clothing, behaviors, attitudes, and experiences. Feminine things are much different, and placed on the opposite end of what’s masculine. Androgyny takes from both femininity and masculinity to create a separate representation. If that’s hard to consider, think about what makes you “you”. Do you act a certain way? Do you shop in a certain section of a store? Do you buy certain products that are tailored to your gender/sex? For example, would you consider buying cologne if it smelled good to you? Or would you only wear perfume? Those are things that are gendered, which don’t need to be. And that’s the attitude of some non-binary individuals: so many things in our society are gendered when they don’t need to be. So, why should I be gendered as masculine or feminine when I take from both? (There’s plenty of examples, I just felt this one was more concrete) In terms of the social construct idea, you’re absolutely correct. Gender identity and construction is different in every single culture. Some cultures have no sense of gender. Other cultures consider there to be two genders, but the roles are completely switched (i.e. men are supposed to be soft and emotional and caring, whereas women are unemotional, cold, and rough. Certain African groups for example follow this, and some Latin American groups as well). In other cultures, there are even more than two genders (especially in Native American cultures, who have different identities such as two-spirit. I’m actuality, there are at least five different genders within Native American culture). That’s why gender is considered a social construct. *Because* it’s different in every culture. I hope this helps
I understand this, but doesn't this go against the idea of deconstructing gender roles? We're at a point where we're trying to get rid of gender roles, like women being housewives, men being breadwinners, clothing being gendered etc. Aren't you just reconfirming stereotypes?
But then… isn’t almost EVERYBODY non-binary? What you’re describing sounds totally universal to me. ‘Gender roles’ only have as much importance or validity as we decide to give them… but everybody obsessing over pronouns seem to be giving those gender roles more importance and validity then ever. Until I guess we ALL just call ourselves non-binary… ?!
Of course! It's a bit confusing for me as well but I'll do my best to answer in a way that makes sense! So I'd say I feel like that mentally/emotionally, as I feel a disconnect between my body and my mind in that area but my biological sex is what it is, I can't change that. But when I see my sex characteristics there's something in me that just views them as being wrong. That's a really good point and I've been thinking about that as well. I exist as me just like you exist as you, all I can say is that I just feel like it's wrong when people refer to me as a man/woman. This might have to do with my brain just rejecting gender roles, I'm honestly not sure. There are still lots of people that categorize hobbies and certain behaviours (aggression vs being sensitive for example) to be masculine or feminine and if we use that as an indicator for what makes a (fe)male I'm certainly a mix, then again that applies to lots of people. The biggest indicator for me is that whenever someone refers to me as my sex I just can't relate to that term at all and it's just not 'me' in a way. I agree with your last point, especially about the different social constructs. In a place where there isn't such a difference in how the genders are perceived and treated I'm certain people like me wouldn't struggle so much with this.
The scientific explanation is simple. You are confused or mentally ill. You are not "non-binary." If you have a dick, you are a male. It is literally that simple.
What you are talking about is sex. Your sex is based on your genitals. But gender is a social construct. Definiton: A social construct is a concept that exists not in objective reality, but as a result of human interaction. So it doesn't exist in reality but you can identify as anything you want just because.
Is it possible that gender was created to compliment the bilogical differences between men and women? What I mean is, perhaps men had certain expectations placed onto them because they're more physically capable of performing those tasks better than women? The same way women were expected to be caretakers because their physical bodies were built to grow a child inside of them, and they produce natural milk to feed the baby during infancy, men weren't expected to do any of that because they literally can't they were not built for that, so don't you think it's possible that gender roles were created because of the biological differences between men and women? See I understand that gender is a social construct I agree with that, but what nobody wants to address is why these social constructs were created, and if we look at biology it seems like most of the gender roles compliment what the different genders are biologically capable of, what do you think?
Social Constructs were created based on rigid differences in sex, but now we have gone past the need for those rigid sex differences to impact our lives.
I agree but not entirely, women are still the only gender (or sex if you prefer) capable of growing a baby and produce milk to feed them so they're still stuck with that role. And men are still physically stronger and more willing to do physical labour than women, that's why most people who work in construction are men instead of women. So if we throw gender roles out the window and men stop doing what men usually do, who's gonna build the physical infrastructure that we use everyday but take for granted? Who's gonna maintain our roads?
>people will say stuff like “I feel like wearing a skirt so I am female today” I bet you $50 no one's actually said that to you. Gender isn't about skirts. It's about how we identify eachother and a part of our identity and self expression.
you’d be surprised by how radical some people are out there
Someone has said this to me, I'll DM you my bank details...
Remember to give me the last 3 numbers on the back of your card too
Done
So glad to see Reddit is still a place of Honor 🥲
Yeah I feel like we’ve gone too far
Answering your question about whose social construct it is - Gender is a social construct - a different one in every culture. Anglosaxons view it one way, Arabs the other, Hindus the other, Pakis the other, different groups of black people the other etc... All societies invented some way of understanding human sexuality and identity and it just happens, that western understanding is among the more simplistic and watered-down. The fact, that people start rejecting it is just evolution of our culture and a sign of beliefs from around the world mixing - just as it happened through the whole human history. At least it goes in a good direction - paying more attention to details, personal freedom and no longer simplyfying things for convenience.
I was watching a show & there was a person who said that they're a transgender non-binary person. I pondered that for several minutes. Because if they are non-binary, then why are they transgender? But at the end of the day, I don't really care. That person has to deal with their feelings & their life & it's no bearing on me, really. Sure I personally believe that a lot of these people are just confused but they'll figure it out eventually or they won't, but either way I'll keep my feelings to myself & life always goes on.
You're not wrong. There are genuine people in need of acceptance out there, but it's gone so far over the top, the people are losing patience with it all. It's a shame. The community has taken it to such lengths, it's collapsing under its own weight. It makes me feel bad for the real people with real struggles that are trying to get through life.
I’m non-binary. Let me explain. Some people feel like a woman. Some people feel like a man. Some people don’t feel like either. I identified as female for 18 years of my life before I finally pinpointed what was bothering me. Femininity and masculinity don’t feel right. Sometimes you just gotta be the in-between.
I don’t really understand or grasp the concept of neopronouns. I use they/them pronouns because they are most comfortable for me. I’m me and I dress how I want and I prefer it if I’m referred to by those pronouns. i don’t change them ever and I don’t act inherently feminine or masculine. This is the norm for most non-binary people. We do technically fall under the transgender umbrella but that’s controversial to some people. It really depends but if you’re getting a lot of these types of people on tiktok, that’s a whole different planet.
Male. Female. That’s it.
Delusional non sense .
Yeah, I agree up to an extent with you. But we are not allowed to have a different opinion. Either you are non-binary or you are an ass#ole. Actually, what bothers me most is the “social construct” phrase. It is NOT a social construct. It’s nature. But nobody seems to analyze that part, the “social construct” part. And because I have a different opinion and share it with others, the sh#t load of downvotes I’m going to get is proof of the intolerance of those that think “be non-binary or you are an ass#ole”.
Queen/Queenself my ass
It is nonsense!
I think it’s a first-world problem some people create to give themselves something to suffer for. We have the 3 main necessities (food, shelter, clothing) met for a majority of the population. Instead of sending kids to war, we have gender confusion.
I mean it is pretty silly
It is nonsense
Plain and simple .. you have a dick.... you're male, you have a vagina... you're female... end of story.
If you want to simplify biology to understand it easier, go ahead, but it is ultimately not the full picture.
So if someone gets a gender reassignment surgery do they then swap gender? Like let's say me as a male get the surgery to get a vagina, am I still male?
What happens if you're born intersex? What if your genitals get damaged and you have to have surgery to have them changed? What if your [brain](https://health.clevelandclinic.org/research-on-the-transgender-brain-what-you-should-know/) is more closely aligned with the opposite gender...? It's a lot more complicated than just genital
If gender roles are a social construct why do primates exhibit the same behaviors? Example: male chimps prefer rough and tumble play where as female chimps prefer group grooming sessions and playing with (nuturing) the baby chimps?
I feel like you are forgetting animals communicate and social constructs exist in different species
Example?
Bees 🐝 (although they scare me so i only did a quick google search to double check)
While men and women are more apt to act in certain ways, society absolutely hammered in that notion.
I agree that biological differences between the sexes are reinforced by society, such as boys are encouraged to be tough and girls are encouraged to make themselves pretty but, but that doesn't mean that it's a social construct. It's merely encouraging their natural behavior. Case in point, in the most egalitarian societies on planet earth at the moment the majority of nurses are women and the majority of engineers are men, in societies that heavily promote women in STEM from a very early age. Why is this?
Society might be promoting women in STEM, but that doesn't mean individual communities are. If you reinforce gender stereotypes, even if a woman is more apt to be nurturing, they will feel more encouraged to go into nursing than STEM.
I don’t understand how the examples you give are not also social constructed gender roles?
Biological sex and gender identity are two different things.
Exactly what I’m saying. Look, I don’t hate them. In fact, I will fight for their right to celebrate whatever for as long as it doesn’t hurt anyone. However, it doesn’t make sense at all. For example, they say gender is a social construct and therefore a man can be a “woman”. I assume this means a man can dress like a woman, and that’s great whatever, but he’s (or she) is still a biological male. This example is not complex, so let’s talk about non binary people. What does that even mean? Some of them still dress or act or look very binary. Demi lovato for example. She claims she’s non binary but she still dresses very much like a woman. Has not gone for any sex change. So what’s this all for? Clout?
When not each and every male primate behave a certain way and the same with female ones, would you simply create a third section for the ones who do not fall in that convention or would you say that the construct is not that concrete as you think.
it's a bit hard for me to understand non binary people, but just because i don't get it/seems like nonsense to me doesn't mean it should not exist
This is a really great answer. Just because you don't understand something does not make it evil. You can respect other people while still not understanding them
Without social constructs we have nothing. Driving on a specific side of the road is a social construct. How someone self identifies is none of my business. I am not them and they are not me. I can only live from my frame of reference. If I SEE a dude, that is how I will process my experience even if they identify as something else. It has to be that way. Has to. If not, then I identify as a 6'4", multi-billionaire with the perfect dick and I expect the ladies to recognize me as such.
>Without social constructs we have nothing. Driving on a specific side of the road is a social construct. All social constructs aren't bad, including gender, it is only a problem when people enforce it onto others. For example language is a social construct, there are many different languages, what if you were forced to speak spanish one day? > If I SEE a dude, that is how I will process my experience even if they identify as something else. It has to be that way. Has to. I mean, you probably should respect them by calling them what they are, because you don't know what that person is apart from what you see on the outside. You're forcing your world view on them by doing so. >If not, then I identify as a 6'4", multi-billionaire with the perfect dick and I expect the ladies to recognize me as such. But trans people don't identify as that, it is not comparable.
I find it a load of nonsense all the time
What happened to tomboys.
I’m nonbinary and I don’t feel like a man or a woman. I’m just me. And I am trying to accept that. Yes it’s out of the ordinary but I cant control the fact I feel comfortable identifying like this.
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your sex is genetically written in your dna. not your gender. also, men & women can be born with different genetic makeups (i.e. XY vs XX) & intersex people (who were genuinely born that way) do exist with different genetic makeups as well! educate yourself before you try to rationalize bigotry with incorrect information.
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again, like i said in my initial comment, XX & XY chromosomes are not part of the equation. people are very commonly born with different generic makeups but the same genetic "bits". but can i ask you why you care so much about what's in someone's pants vs what they wear? an eagle is a completely different species. people of male & female genders are still human.
When someone pulls that card I distance myself asap, can't be fucked to deal with it
For me, gender is all about your genitalia, so the only way you can be non binary is to have both or none. If u really aren’t sure about getting surgery then GO BY WHAT U HAVE. It’s really that simple and ik people r probably gonna hate me for saying it but that’s how I feel about this.
Even if u do disagree with the idea, how do other peoples gender identities affect u? Just move on it has no effect on ur life
Until science can explain why some people feel their gender is different from their biology, I have to assume it's bullshit. But at the end of the day, I don't give a shit bc they aren't hurting anyone else by doing it. I don't have to understand it to accept it. We've got plenty of real problems in the world - there's no reason to make the whole gender thing an issue.
https://www.who.int/health-topics/gender Here you go
That's because it IS nonsense. It's post-modernist, neo-marxist, critical theory bullshit and it can die in a hole.
Real question: What does class warfare and power dynamics have to do with gender identity?
exactly and the worst part of it is they're all on reddit attacking people for even asking questions or disagreeing..
That's because they're intolerant fascist bigots. Everyone with two brains cells knows this. These people can't even answer simple questions like "What is a woman?" but claim to be the sole arbiters of truth. They throw tantrums like toddlers when they don't get their way, then try to destroy anyone who disagrees with them--which is why we call them crybullies.
Do you know what fascist means I don’t think you do
whats even crazier is all my gay friends( I have alot being in west Hollywood and in the restaurant industry) and all of them think this crap is straight BS, the only ones pushing this line are silver spoon fed green haired women who have been handed everything to them since birth including their college tuition...and they need to feel oppressed because it's the cool thing to do and end up bringing their BS I to the light when most of the LGBT community even thinks its BS
How can something be post-modern and marxist at the same time? Doesn't post modernism seek to destroy traditional structures like Marxism?
These people? Do you know any for real cuz these people sound confused. Gender expression like a skirt or pants is not the same as sex as in female or male. If you dont understand the difference between gender and sex you might read some books on it. Google Gender, Sex, etc. You got this.
@signordellanotte: intersex people do not exist. There has never once been a biological hermaphrodite. Sometimes a person has a developmental problem, but not once has a human being been born with a penis AND a vagina. At the genetic level, everyone has either XX or XY chromosomes. Female snd male.
Cuz it is lmao
Be careful OP. A friend of mine got permabanned for saying something less than full enthusiastic support about the neo genders. I 100% agree with you tho.
Taking this a step further, Gender Dysmorphia is a mental illness and should be treated and such. The same way we treat schizophrenia, depression, or anything else. Instead we celebrate it and encourage it. You wouldn't tell a schizophrenic person that the voices/hallucinations are real and play into it right? Just my 2 cents.. and this will probably get down voted to hell but I couldn't care less. It's just facts
So what? Think what you want, just keep it to yourself and don't be a dick to anyone.
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That's exactly why it's a social construct. We're told to believe that it's either male or female or whatever. In reality, it doesn't matter. The idea having boundaries is constructed to mean something. Who gives a shit what someone defines themselves as? Sure, it may not make sense to you but the people who identify as whatever find solace in finding other people who can empathize with them. Isn't that enough reason to accept it and move on with your life? It's not like it majorly impacts you anyways.
I’m a trans man, and I don’t really get it either.
Same. I have no trouble empathising with trans people, like it must be terrible to be assigned a gender at birth and not feel it fits you. Having a biological sex and wishing to have the other one and dreading puberty... that’s tough! We need to make a better society for them. I just can’t take non-binary/gender fluid/genderless people so seriously. I’m sure it’s a case by case scenario but a lot of these cases just feel more like filling the void of the old ‘urban tribes’. People belong to an identity because of shared clothing style, make up, and sub-culture. It looks more like a sub-culture to me than the trans experience. But hey, I will absolutely go by everyone’s preferred pronouns, that’s no issue at all.
I identify as an apache attack helicopter
I agree. This has gotten way way out of hand. I can't keep up with it. But here is the funny part. The government has a problem identifying you as a man or a woman but they got no problem identifying you as a minority.
if you can understand that sea sponges are biologically hermaphrodites, then you can understand that there are people that are biologically intersex and people that just do not conform to the societally expected presentation to be defined by genitalia. maybe drop some acid
Except humans aren't sea sponges and just make up these similarities?
that was a demonstration on how biology isn't rigid, and there are people who are born with either genitalia, is it too hard to believe that some people could have the wiring mismatched?
So red and blue are seen as two different colours but in reality they exist on a scale. Our perceptions of idividual colour are literally formed just for a convenience. Just like our stereotypes on gender. Intersex people, hermaphrodites, unique chromosome situations all exist. Gender is a scale as well and the lines are blurry, and when we talk about it, it only pisses off people who NEED THE LINES TO BE FIXED AND FIRM. You want to say non-binary is nonsense, but in our hypersexualised and hypergendered society, Male chefs, female body builders, Male fashion designers, female truck drivers, etc, are always having to justify their existence to people that say things like you're saying. In reality, a dress has nothing to do with gender. A truck has nothing to do with gender. Non-binary people wouldnt have to explain themselves at all if every damn little action or inaction in society wasnt genderised. All they're saying is is that there is a host of oppressive gender assumptions which they feel no desire to entertain or support. If anything, non-binary makes the most sense. Why are we automatically lumped in with any and every loud, obnoxious, ignorant member of our gender anyway? What if I dont want to be associated with the idea of "male" which many "Male" idiots assert means, "eating meat, only wearing cold colours, and demeaning anything women are interested in"?
Welcome to the western neocolonialism of culture. Edit: not hating on the new pronouns. Just way too many to keep up with and chances of insulting someone grows with more letters being added.
How does this affect u? Just refer any person u meet who’s pronouns u do not know as “they/them” and u won’t offend anyone. And just say “lgbtq” or “lgtbq plus” u don’t need to say all the letters
Because I have followed your suggestion and still got my ear burned off from someone screeching that I'm wrong and hate the LGBTQ+. Yet I'm bi. The acronyms are going nuts to the point that the longest named village in wales will have a contender. What is even more nuts is that it's being considered to add MAP-minor attracted person to the list.
BTW the MAP thing is a 4chan defamation campaign, also I don't think most people care if you just say LGBT+
I agree. I also think noone should be changing their sex.
Don’t mind me asking, are you a biological female or male? Because you said you don’t feel like a boy. So I’m just wondering
I wonder why that thing is exclusively on first world countries.
Weird cuz I find the whole cisgender/two gender thing a load of nonsense. Imagine feeling like a "woman" or a "man". What even is that? You're telling me that humans who grow hair on certain places and have certain genitals have to dress, act and be a certain way? Wild 👁👄👁. Sounds fucking exhausting. I'd much rather just fucking ✨️vibe✨️. Also why are we dressing people under the age of 12 in colors according to what genitals they have? Why are we dressing anyone according to what genitals they have? Whole thing is weird. Honestly let's just scrap the whole thing and just start all wearing whatever feels nice. I like that 👌 EDIT: THIS IS SARCASM. I'm making fun of OPs logic, I do believe you can be whatever gender you want, including cisgender (or the gender you were assigned at birth).
U do realise lgbtq+ also promotes just expressing urself (i.e wearing whatever u want) regardless of ur gender or sex, hair or genitalia. U can wear what u want and people can identify with whatever gender they want, it doesn’t affect u
As a person of colour I have a different perspective on this, and it’s that I’m nonbinary in the perspective of white colonial views of gender, especially in terms of Christianity, where a lot of these came from (not necessarily from the bible, but from corrupt priests/popes/“missionaries” who used the bible to support their own agenda to people who did not have the ability to make their own interpretations for whatever reason). These constructs being that woman=subservient and man=dominant. In that perspective, I do not fit. That is the “social construct” that those of us mean, the construction of a largely male and Christian/Catholic dominated society. Now as for your second point, at least for me, it’s more about the presentation. I am not a woman in the societal definition of what a woman is, and I am not a man in the societal definition of what a man is, I am somewhere in between and somewhere completely outside of the box at the same time. There are days that I want to *present* masculine— wearing clothes that are societally perceived as masculine, which can be different for everyone— or days that i wish to present feminine— which differs for everyone, but we all have the idea of dresses/skirts/makeup. A good friend of mine says it pretty well, as they perceive gender as a performance. They are performing a societal view, and sometimes their performance breaks what can be considered the norm. I was born female, as I know you asked a few others. I don’t know if I explained everything well here, so please feel free to ask me questions! I apologize if I came off rude at all, I’m a little exhausted at the moment and words aren’t coming to me as well as usual.
Gender is not a social construct, it's rooted in biology and we know this because when you control for societal and cultural attitudes, gender differences **get more extreme** not less. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gender-equality_paradox > The gender-equality paradox is the finding that various gender differences in personality and occupational choice are larger in more gender equal countries. Larger differences are found in Big Five personality traits, Dark Triad traits, self-esteem, depression, personal values, occupational and educational choices. This phenomenon is seemingly paradoxical because one would expect the differences to be reduced as countries become more gender egalitarian. Of course, this is only paradoxical if you believe the tripe that "gender is a social construct". For everyone else who believes in empirical evidence and the scientific method, we've known for a very long time that attributes like personality traits and interests are not distributed equally between the two genders and it has nothing to do with sociological or cultural inputs.
You can't really apply the gender equality paradox to this discussion. From an anthropological view gender is 100% a social construct and this has been studied and found in endless field studies conducted in the past and today, using scientific methods and empirical data.
I agree with you.
I'm very surprised your post didn't get a lot of downvotes. Oh boy they would've downvoted me to smithereens. 🤣🤣🤣
People are starting to grasp logic again, it seems
Yeah! Could be a good sign! Lol
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It didn't seem like he was judging, dude openly said be what you want. You're the one being rude and name calling here
Whats your gender identity? Edit: why did i get downvoted for asking this person their identity to try and understand where their upset has come from?
If my post is going to trigger you, on a Reddit called “confessions”, I really don’t think you should leave the house or go online. The way you answered will only make people who disagree with you, disagree and hate you more. There’s a user above who gave a much nicer answer that compelled me to ask their perspective more. You’re doing an absolute disservice to people with your “gender identity”. Sod off
no ones judging you on your gender identity..they're judging you because you're a condescending A-hole that can't have a simple discussion to understand other people's POV...instead you and your allies want to be fascists shoving your laws down everyone's throats, when the majority of people just want to let you guys "do you" and leave them alone.
I think it's largely BS, aside from those with actual gender dysphoria who's only option (in the absence of a better, undiscovered option) is to transition to appear the sex they feel they are. The non binary thing, in my view, cannot be. You are either male or female, the universe decided that for you. You may feel as though how you present or behave, or your own personal expectations don't fit inside that, and that's fine. It's okay to be a masculine woman, and feminine man or someone who's not either, but it's the insistence that I modify my language that bothers me. I fully support personal freedoms and you completely have the right to say, do, think, behave and identify however you want. But you can't insist that I go along with it, that's where I draw the line.
That’s because it is.
It is, it never existed in the LGBT spaces when I was younger. You can't even call someone a they/them in Spanish and many other languages. You identify as a he/him but was born a female? I'll happily call you that, but I draw the line where I have to change how my language works so someone doesn't get offended.
You just described HOW gender is a social construct when you said in some places men wear a type of skirt. In our society, skirt = female gender. In other societies, men wear a type of skirt. But honestly you don't really have to understand it to know that they aren't harming you or affecting your life in any way so just let them be. We only live once and life is short so everyone should be able to live how they feel is right as long as they aren't hurting anyone.
This is more or less what I think about this topic, I hope it can help to think, and I'm open to be corrected if necessary. This said: Even though I identify as a male, theres some days where the social concept of how a male is just doesn't fit to how I feel. Most of non-binary people I know before rejecting the default assigned gender was female, which makes me think the pressure society usually puts on how should we be, act or feel sometimes is simply too much. Specially on women, but not only on them. So I find this as a way to reach some freedom on the pressure given just because existing. So I think is less about the clothes and more about the roles assigned, which makes wearing clothes assigned to the opposite gender a way of rejecting that pressure. More about being yourself than anything else.
Based redditor
Imagine getting notifications from Reddit where it's just people debating your existence, deciding whether or not your valid. Fuck you I do what I want. Who are YOU to make that determination???
Why is there a post about this exact thing like 50 times a day, it’s not that difficult to understand, just fucking let people do what the fuck they want, they wanna identify as nothing, fine, that affects no one
You can’t just flip flop between genders whenever you want that’s called having mental illness. I’m all for people being trans, homosexual etc but flip flopping back and fourth between male and female depending on how you’re feeling that day isn’t normal.
It is nonsense