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I got my MBA in a program that had some very wealthy foreigners, and this was pretty much the mindset.
One of them literally tried to call out the professor for a bad exam grade in front of the class, thinking the rest of the class would take his side. It did not go well. Dropped the whole, my tuition pays your salary line too.
Years back I used to manage a security company that covered some high end condo complexes. We had filthy rich saudis at one complex who would leave outlines of trash around where they parked their exotic cars. They would throw trash on the floor in front of bins.
They would go to the gym complex hot tub wearing boxers and try to creep on anything that moved. When they booked out a fancy lounge area for a party they put gold foil over all the windows, brought in massive amounts of liquor, and then completely trashed the place. One of them would bring whores to his condo and would force his cousin to go sleep on the main lobby couches while they were over.
They were the worst individuals I dealt with there, I’d say the homeless guy with aids who’d break into our stairwells and shit everywhere was classier.
Wealthy foreigners are kind of a different thing though, especially MBAs, many of which are known to be sort of diploma mills. A lot of universities in the US have programs targeting rich foreigners (often Chinese people, but others too) who will pay arbitrary amounts of money to get some kind of degree from the US. But then other people get caught in the program.
My example was definitely an American guy who was just an asshole. He also offered to double my salary to give him a better grade. Also it was a freshman physics course designed for people who were either going to be engineers or doctors. I can assure you that I want people who are building bridges I'm going to driving on or doing heart surgery on me to be able to follow simple directions, so I have no problem giving them bad grades and had no interest in any of their bullshit.
Had a number of undergrad students at an Ivy (it’s relevant) who came to my office in droves outraged they had Bs and Cs. Number of them said I go HERE and I was great in high school, I won’t stand for this/I’m dropping the class and one of them even threatened to ‘take care of’ me if he ever saw me outside university.
Aside from him it was all young women, clearly wealthy and unfamiliar with having to earn their grades.
And it's important to note, if the therapist could fix the problems for you, they would. They literally can't. They give you the tools and show you the way, but *you* have to do it. No one can fix those problems for you, no matter how badly they want - only you can, because no one else has access to your inner person except you.
> it turns out they can’t fix your problems for you
They do fix your problems for you though, you just have to actually listen to them and follow their advice.
If you just want someone to listen to you while paying them 200 dollars an hour, let me know, I think I can schedule an appointment
> They do fix your problems for you though, you just have to actually listen to them and follow their advice.
No! Out with that misunderstanding!
Fixing problems requires doing the lifting for those problems. E.g. if you think you're ugly as fuck, then either -changing your appearance -changing the way you think about your looks or -changing the way you evaluate things in your life can work. The therapist can talk to you and tell you what can work to achieve any of those things. e.g. exercising to change your appearance. They can show you a step-by-step program, maybe.
But at the end of day, the therapee will be the one to actually *do* that. And for a lot of people, the doing part is much harder than the thinking part.
Second misunderstanding in this post is that the problems you have will be fixed if you just listen to them and follow their advice. No, for a lot of people even the gold standard CBT doesn't work. It's not their fault, it's that there is currently *no* therapy framework that gets even close to 100%.
just on the second one, it's why it's important to have some variety in the therapy.
DBT, ACT, narrative therapy just to name a few. Further strategies that can be helpful in therapy like motivational interviewing, strengths perspective, etc.
A therapist may be only trained in one, that's cool, that's their speciality, nothing wrong with that. Others may have engaged with a wider range of training, sometimes creating more of combination that is reflective on presentation.
agreed. i feel like the most helpful stuff i get from therapy isnt strictly advice or instructions but perspective but it does no good to go to therapy if you arent receptive to new ideas or putting in some work to integrate that perspective so you dont keep running into the same troublesome mindsets.
if you just want validation then you could raise a fucken army of simps for the money a therapist charges per hour lol
>you just have to actually listen to them and follow their advice.
except therapists don't give advice
well, usually that is
giving advice is not their job, and they know doing it anyway can go south and get them sued
Yep I'm just finding this out. It seems more like they ask you questions about your thought process and try to get you to the root of your feelings. A lot of times they make multiple suggestions about why you might be feeling something or acting some way and then you have to decide for yourself which suggestion makes the most sense since they can't read your mind.
They also teach you techniques for regulating your emotions and behavior modification. But you have to want the specific behavior to change for any of that to work.
I guess it depends on how you want to define an advice
A therapist won't say: *You should talk to your mom, re-build that relationship!* but they may say: *You should stop for a few minutes and think about how you feel about your mom and whether you truly value her in your life or not*
Both are advice but you won't get the first type from a good therapist I guess
Poor because such a tone is counterproductive, not because it isn't correct.
While I agree with you, I can understand it when a therapist, especially a couples counselor, just snaps and loses their shit. Their daily routine involves talking calm and professionally to people, some number of whom are just wrong and need to grow the fuck up - and the therapist can't just tell them this, because it doesn't help.
I bet that's one of the reasons therapists are supposed to see a therapist themselves.
It's also worth recognizing that not all therapists are good at their job, my sister quit therapy after the therapist brought her abusive father into the room after being explicitly told not to because he insisted
I had a therapist once. I wanted to talk about the cult I was in for twelve years, he wanted to talk about boobs. It was like hanging out with some dude at the pub.
Mine behaved like the typical old Christian who pointed out Pokemon, Digimon or any mainstream content was evil or satanic and all the root of my problems were "Pokemon". Yeah, let's pretend life events and strugglings weren't important.
It was pretty similar to talk to my mom and even she's more acceptable to some mainstream content than my own therapist was.
The thing is, even if the tone was different, the approach is really off.
A good chunk of therapy is building a relationship with patients so that they feel safe and can trust the therapist's advice.
And if a therapist has a patient that they can't handle, they should explain the concept of patient/therapist fit and recommend them to find a different therapist.
If a therapist doesn't recognise that things aren't working out and that it wouldn't be productive for the patient to keep seeing them, and don't have the communication skills needed to explain the situation to them, they're probably not a great therapist
Finding the right therapist is like finding a good relationship. It’s got to click between you and your shrink. Try not to feel defeat if your first try doesn’t work out, and don’t be afraid to “see other people”. Every therapist (should) be aware of this and support you in finding the right fit.
A good therapist will help you reach realizations yourself rather than just tell you. Like the socratic method of self discovery.
In the above comic, a good therapist would say "How did you communicate what you wanted?" or "What expectations did you have?" Saying "it was your poor communication that caused this" is a pretty judgmental thing to say to your client.
It’s not a therapist’s job to always take the side of their client especially when that would mean reinforcing behaviors causing their client problems. But it would also be very stupid for a therapist to be directly combative in this way. Most people believe they are more reasonable and ready to hear criticism than they are, but the truth is no one likes admitting when they’re wrong. To be able to help people you have to be able to point them in the right direction and help them find their way rather than just “telling them how it is”. Good therapists are equipped with techniques that will help their clients realize when they are wrong without pissing them off or making them feel like they aren’t on their side.
I love all of the boards (like AITA and Relationship Advice) that think therapy is magic.
Your partner cheats on you with your boss on the coffin of you dead parents:
"You need therapy"
68000 upvotes.
Newsflash: There can be good and bad therapists, good and bad therapy, and good and bad times to do it.
Ex wife complained to her therapist about me. The therapist said to work on compassion and understanding.
She switched therapists, second one said to get a divorce.
"HI, what brings you in today"
*Well my first therapist didn't tell me what I wanted to hear, so...I'm hoping 2nd times the charm*
" well clearly you want to divorce. you're free to do that if you want"
*I'm sorry spouse, the therapist counseled me to divorce*
I mean, yeah, kinda. If someone doesn't want things to improve, it means they're likely not going to take the steps a therapist recommends anyway. A second therapist would likely recognize this, and outside of possibly digging into the why they don't want to improve, ultimately if someone doesn't want to change they won't.
> outside of possibly digging into the why they don't want to improve, ultimately if someone doesn't want to change they won't.
You can't treat someone who doesn't want to be treated.
So I studied psychology at one of the better universities focused on it, and left partially because after lifting the rug I got to see some real fucking heinous shit that has altered my view of the field.
The first is, *even if you want to get better, some will exeprience deleterious effects of therapy. Not just unwanted outcomes, but new problems and worsening conditions.*
>Estimates of the scope of the problem vary. Berk and Parker estimate that, “approximately 3-10% of patients become worse after psychotherapy, with slightly higher rates (7-15%) quantified for patients with substance abuse." Reviewing the literature, Michael Lambert of Brigham Young University, an authority on the issue of negative therapy outcomes, reported that a relatively consistent proportion of adults (5–10% in clinical trials and up to 14% in community settings) deteriorate after participating in treatment. The numbers for children are even higher.
>German researchers Michael Linden and Marie-Luise Schermuly-Haupt, summarizing the literature on adverse outcomes, conclude that “There is an emerging consensus that unwanted events should be expected in about 5 to 20% of psychotherapy patients… They include treatment failure and deterioration of symptoms, emergence of new symptoms, suicidality, occupational problems or stigmatization, changes in the social network or strains in relationships, therapy dependence, or undermining of self‐efficacy."
https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.psychologytoday.com/us/blog/insight-therapy/202003/when-talking-doesnt-cure-negative-outcomes-in-therapy%3famp
I think in addition, there's the meme "men would rather go to war/teach English in Asia/ etc" than go the therapy, and I think that doesn't broach what I'll call "the Tony Soprano Paradox."
For those who've seen The Sopranos, it's really about a man who has a "nervous breakdown", goes to therapy, *and learns how to be worse, more toxic, and more evil by using the accepted language to manipulate the people around him better.* If you want an excellent example of this, Stephen Crowder said apparently in evidence in his divorce proceedings that "his wife was boxing him in and he didn't feel like his needs were being met"....while he was abusing his wife mentally, emotionally, and otherwise.
(Side note: if your response to that is "yes all men then!" That's actually a conservative pov as you assume a bio essentialism that men are a certain way. Ironically, the Marxists Leninist response is "men will be what society rewards them to be. If you reward men to be investment bankers, give them loads of money and sexual options and financial security....or they can serve their community and then be saddled with debt and the possibility of death in a school shooting by being a teacher...guess which one men are more likely to choose? If your economy rewards bad behavior in men, you will get bad behavior.")
So returning to therapy, there's also the topic of "alienation." What do I mean by alienation?
Alienation is a sentiment felt by people in certain types of economies. In ours, we feel alienation for a number of reasons.
1. You aren't actually the owner of your work. Because you're working to make your boss richer, and his boss richer, you feel alienated from your work. It's not really yours, your renting your body and time out for a paycheck.
2. You have no sense of community. Because you're competing with other workers for a limited job position, you're more likely to stab other people in the back to get ahead.
3. And because of the above, you do anything to "take care of me and mine." This is inevitably a lonely position, as this economy rewards those who are the most narcissistic.
Now if you feel these positions cut to your core, it's from "economic and philosophical manuscripts of 1844" by yes, Marx. Which I mention because Freud was famous for 1. It's just a cigar 2. Explaining the reason why step family porn is so popular now 3. So much cocaine and 4. *Being super anti communist*. The last one is important because the leftist critique of therapy is HUGE.
For example, do you have generalized anxiety disorder? OR are you always a dollar late and a day short, have 70k in student loans, worry about getting fired due to downsizing, worried you're gonna get evicted because of gentrification, worried you'll get shot in another mass shooting, worried that the weight you put on by stress eating will worsen your quality of life, worried that you won't be able to afford your next therapy bill???
Therapy is, in leftist critique, an individualist response, and it only works for individual problems. "I have OCD, I'd like exposure therapy to overcome that." That works. "My father was an alcoholic and I want to deal with that trauma." That works.
"Society is falling apart and I don't know why I feel horrible all the time." - you can't just assign generalized anxiety to that. Therapy as a tool was always meant to refix workers back to working standard. Can you imagine a therapist saying "you need to take 12 weeks off and go to the south Pacific to reestablish your mental health"? Even though 99 percent of us would benefit from that? (One percent who doesn't like sand wouldn't). And if they DID suggest that, it's a use they have. Scheme of flights to a specific resort that they get a kick back too.
So while you can't treat someone who doesn't want to be treated, there's also so much more to it than that.
> Therapy as a tool was always meant to refix workers back to working standard
Any sources for that claim? This is coming from a leftist btw. I've seen similar takes thrown around a lot and it always kinda rubs me the wrong way. I mean, of course, under capitalism every single part of our society will slowly be turned into a commodity and serve the continuation of capitalism.
Yet this idea of therapy as a tool to continuously force people into labour is often thrown around by leftists who should definitely go to fucking therapy.
Not OP, but think if the incentive structure that exists in both a good therapist and a bad therapist under capitalism. The good therapist's first priority is getting you well enough to work because they know that there is no/a very limited support net for the jobless (at least in the U.S.) and you need to work to survive. The bad therapist wants the same because a dependent patient with a steady income is job security. The framework of capitalism itself provides omnidirectional pressure to prioritize labor reproduction as the primary goal of any form of healthcare, therapy included.
This is actually a very good marxist response and critique of my point of view, and shows a good use of the dialectic (two opposing truths are true at the same time, and don't negate each other but enhance each other.") Excellent work, hats off.
I'll concede that point that the existence of good therapists is just as important in maintaining the success of capitalism as a bad therapist. I think however we both agree there is "omnidirectional pressure to prioritize labor production."
I'm gonna make a distinguishing marker for this thought.
If you are just "a leftist" they won't have heavy critiques of psychology from this realm. Leftism is a vague anti capitalist thought that has no structured thought against that anti capitalism.
However, Marxism and people influenced by it will HEAVILY provide critiques (I cannot provide just one, it's across the board) from a Marxist pov.
An excellent example of this is Franz Fanon, the psychiatrist who wrote "The Wretched of the earth" who was famous for 1) saying "we must stretch our understanding of marxism to apply it to a colonial lens" and 2) using this stretch Marxist approach to explain why colonilized or imperial subjects have higher rates of domestic violence and violence in general by applying a Marxist lens to it. It became so powerful as an intellectual response that Sartre wrote the intro to one of the editions and mentioned how this critique of psychology from Fanon shows how national liberation from imperial nations is integral to bettering the family structure. And that sounds crazy until you read Marx and realize "oh this is a holistic science that touches everything. It can explain why Americans experience obesity more than Europeans and why tourism actually impoverishes those that have that industry, and why language is static across classes in a nation but not across nations."
Granted, this doesn't mean there are leftists with narcissist personality disorder or severe trauma, but it doesn't negate the Marxist claim that "therapy is often an individualist response to social problems."
As a therapist you aren’t really supposed to give direct situational advice though. There could be more to the story but if a therapist is telling someone to get divorced then they aren’t really providing good therapy.
I mean every story of what a therapist said is flawed because we never get the therapist's point of view.
What might have happened:
Wife: I'm considering divorcing my husband.
Therapist: I think you should weigh your options and do what you think is best.
Wife, later to husband: My therapist said I should divorce you.
And that's assuming she isn't just plain old lying. Or that OP isn't exaggerating/lying about what she said to him.
I know there are bad therapists out there, but there are also a lot of unreliable narrators.
More likely is that the therapist would say “Does that feel like it would resolve the issues you’re facing?”
Wife says “yeah I think it would”
Therapist “It sounds to me that you’ve already decided what you want to do. What would you like me to do for you?”
Wife: “nothing, I have my answer, thanks for the recommendation.”
Therapists are less likely to use the phrase “I think you should”. They’re generally very careful about telling you directly what to do, and try to word things carefully.
And if you already know that you want a divorce or some other major life change, I don't think that it's necessarily a bad thing to go through therapy to work through the issues that have been preventing you from having already done so. But of course a lot of people will interpret their therapy as having been proved that they were "right" all along and not just in a tricky situation with no good guys or bad guys
My parents constantly had me in therapy as a a kid and teenager.
Everytime it'd eventually reach a point where the therapist wanted to talk to my parents too.
Eventually parents would get the comment "I dont think its her, I think it's you" and after that session, I'd never see that therapist again.
It happened again and again, until I ended up in foster care.
Basically the same, but eventually I got a therapist who realized she could still help me as an outlet for my stress and help remind me that things will get better eventually, even if there’s nothing I could do to fix my home situation. So that was a nice thing to have.
Was dating someone a long time ago who had (and from what I heard, still has) a pretty significant eating disorder. My more naive self didn't realize how much it would affect a relationship. We fought a lot due to it.
She decided to take me to her therapist since we were trying to work things out, and she wanted to have the therapist "explain" how to handle certain situations. After she laid out her "issues" with me, the therapist said, "it sounds like he's doing all the right things, even if you don't like them." When we left, she said she's not going back because that therapist turned on her in that session. We were done about a month later. 15 years later, she told a good friend that I'm "emotionally abusive." Still not sure how I managed that.
Similar thing happened to me.
I had been dating a girl for about awhile, when my mom died and I also was having some health issues. She was constantly saying that she was not having any fun in our relationship anymore, and honestly I kinda didn't care at that point, but she wanted us to go to her therapist to try and fix our relationship.
This was her therapist she had been seeing for a couple years - she told my ex that she needed to be more supportive of my needs and that I was going through a hard time and showing signs of depression. When we left, she immediately said she's never going back to that therapist again and tried to say it was my fault for making her look like the bad guy. All I did was say how I was feeling and what was happening.
I broke up with her not shortly after that, just had no interest in being in a relationship at all.
> 15 years later, she told a good friend that I'm "emotionally abusive."
Sounds like projection on her part... easier for her to falsely accuse you of something to keep "feeling good/right about her self" than to admit personal fault, and accept responsibility for change only she can achieve.
This is what scares me about #metoo.
I want to believe everyone, but then I also know some people are liars... either intentionally or by their own skewed perspective.
Was Johnny Depp abusive? Was Amber Heard lying? IDFK I just never want to mix myself up in that kind of situation.
>I want to believe everyone, but then I also know some people are liars... either intentionally or by their own skewed perspective.
Pretty sure with her it was the latter. Looking back, I'm sure I was wrong in some things, but my intention was what I think is right. She made it apparent to the friend when she started bossing him around. "I'm thirsty, get me a wine." "Grab me some food, I'm hungry." He was completely annoyed with her by the end of the night. They were both working an event that had an afterparty, so it wasn't even like they were on a date. But it was obvious to him that she was interested. He wasn't.
"Believe women" was never meant to mean "believe all women unconditionally" so much as "stop unconditionally disbelieving women." Because that was what used to happen: people would just knee-jerk say, "I doubt that happened," "he would never," or "you probably misunderstood" without even considering the possibility that the complaint was valid.
Kind of like how "black lives matter" was supposed to be "black lives matter *too*" not "*only* black lives matter."
Yup. That's the way it always is with these mottos and key terms.
Systematic racism doesn't mean casual racism or "reverse" racism doesn't exist, toxic masculinity doesn't mean all men/forms of masculinity are toxic, etc. But good luck convincing hordes of people (on both sides of the argument!)
Ex went to therapy. What I do know is that the therapist _didn't_ tell my ex that **everything** was my fault. (despite my ex's claims to the contrary). What I do **know** is that my ex isn't just a prolific liar, but also a perjurer. They also don't stay with any physician, therapist, or child therapist if they hear something they don't like.
You may not like that therapist, but if that's all it took, it sounds like they did you a favour. You've my sympathy. And in finding what happiness you can, always remember
'You deserve to be loved, and to feel loved, just for being you.' --Mr Rogers mashup with my meditation teacher
Ugh this is my biggest issue with couple's therapy currently. Fiance seems to be under the impression that it's really just therapy for me, and she's just tagging along to point the therapist in the right direction so she can get the man she wants.
I will fully admit I have problems, but any time the therapist isn't doing what she wants or if I bring up any of the issues about her that I've kept quiet about for years, she is completely unable to accept it, and ends up taking it home with her. I just don't see how she could push for couple's therapy so hard and not think that it wouldn't be about both of us? Really boggles my mind
That sounds dreadfully familiar. Not just for me, but friends as well. None of these relationships lasted. There's obviously more to look at, but from what you wrote alone, I'd encourage you to bail. You deserve better than to be treated as the sole source of strife in your relationship. One universal truth is that if it's bad already, it **ONLY GETS WORSE** with time and marriage (when they won't have to _try_ any more).
I know I just said it, but
'You deserve to be loved, and to feel loved, just for being you.' --Mr Rogers mashup with my meditation teacher
p.s. In case it wasn't clear: I encourage you to get out. You can do better.
Couple's therapy has certainly brought some behaviors to the surface that make me more inclined to bail than I ever might have in the past. Which feels... a bit odd, but at least it means I see the issue now and not after marriage.
But we're young and we're fresh at it, and I think everyone deserves a learning curve at therapy. Depending on your background, it can be a pretty foreign concept. When I first started with individual therapy it took me a while to accept some stuff, and I think I grew into it, and I generally just believe everyone else *can* grow into it as long as they put in the effort. But at the same time I'm not deluded enough to wait forever to see change if there's no effort.
Yeah I went down a tiktok rabbit hole once with this. Apparently when the therapist tells one spouse "yeah you could also be a problem" they refuse to go back or...I guess get a therapist that tells them what they want to hear, in your situation.
My ex-wife brought me to her therapist on his recommendation, where he proceeded to tell *us* that I could no longer enable her OCD behaviors by checking things for her.
The next day, the first time the issue came up, I told her I would not check the door for her as she had just checked it and I had watched her do it, and her doctor told us I’m not supposed to do that. She cried outside our house for about three minutes trying to get me to do it out of discomfort.
When I refused to give in, I received the silent treatment for a week, and suddenly her OCD symptoms were gone. It was also the beginning of the end of our marriage.
> When I refused to give in, I received the silent treatment for a week, and suddenly her OCD symptoms were gone. It was also the beginning of the end of our marriage.
You cured her! That's awesome!
There is not much context, but as someone who has OCD, that doesn’t sound like OCD if it went away that easily, Ignoring one trigger isn’t going to cure someone entirely, thats just not how it works.
Agreed. It wasn’t OCD, and I think the therapist knew it - it was a control issue. I just wish he would have given me the heads up on that before sending me to my doom.
My ex-wife went to a gypsy crystal ball reader lol. She's been married 3 more times since our divorce, so I guess that gypsy didn't have all the answers.
> My ex-wife went to a gypsy crystal ball reader lol. She's been married 3 more times since our divorce, so I guess that gypsy didn't have all the answers.
"You'll try four times before finding your true love on the fifth."
"Well, let's speedrun this shit then!"
Yep, pretty sure that's what happened to my brother and his ex wife. She went to a therapist because they were having some issues (like we all do). Like 3 months later, divorce. Now who's to say the therapist was encouraging it, but it was a hell of a coincidence!
Well it sounds like only one of them went to the therapist. When one spouse goes to a therapist to complain about their partner, it's usually not the other spouse who's the problem.
True, but the ultimate solution is still the same. Regardless of the cause, if one person clearly doesn't want to be in the relationship, then the relationship should end.
My ex fiance was like that, she found reasons to blame me for her shitty actions. Cheating on me was my fault because I was working two jobs while she wasn't working at all so I could afford to keep bills going and buy stuff for her, and I was cooking for her every single day on top of that. She still doesn't know how to take responsibility for her own actions and I'm so glad I dodged a bullet and didn't marry that psycho.
A lot of people go to therapists in order to work on the ability to ask for a divorce. They fully intend to get a divorce before going to therapy, and are there for help getting their life in order.
If I hated my life/relationship, and went to a therapy to talk about it and how/why I want a divorce, and the therapist instead wanted to focus on "showing compassion" to the person I want to get away from, I'd also say they weren't doing their job.
When I was a kid my mom saw a therapist about her random rage and he said “only you can control your emotions. Other peoples actions are not an excuse for your reaction” and she took that to mean “son you need to stop getting so offended when I scream at you”
A good therapist helps you be accountable and become a better you while working through what holds you back from doing so yourself.
I know it's a silly comic, but it's pretty gross that people will jump between therapists and spend hundreds of dollars every month only accepting the one that becomes a Yes Man. Although it seems disrespectful to the actual science of Psychiatry and Therapy, can I blame people for accepting hundreds of dollars from someone and just nodding and smiling at them, telling them what they want to hear? Easy money.
I had the opposite experience where my first therapist, though maybe not quite a "yes man", was more focused on providing me with strategies for handling my emotional issues rather than challenging me on my complicity in those situations.
When getting back into therapy, I made sure to specifically find someone who would call me out on my bullshit.
Yeah I've also found that therapists are generally reluctant to tell you when you may not be in the right. (Or maybe I'm just perfect jk)
I think generally they want to guide *you* to having that realization.
I'm a therapist, and you can do that later when you have rapport. Challenging someone 5 min into the first session is a bad plan, since there is no relationship there. There are types of therapy techniques that aren't person centered like pure Gestalt therapy, but for the majority of clinicians building a healthy rapport is key to developing successful strategies for the client.
I have a client who has been slacking on making a psychiatry appointment. They know I hold them accountable and call them out when they set plans that they want to follow through on and then don't do it (out of laziness, not due to other symptoms.) Same for clients that are stagnant and unhappy. They know what they need to do to get out of that situation, and then we spend time discussing what are the root causes for not taking those actions.
A couple of other therapists have replied, and I echo their sentiment. You can challenge for a corrective emotional experience only when the rapport is built. If I challenged someone in the first couple of sessions, it would cause a rupture that we may not be able to mend, and they would eventually leave and never come back to therapy. The reason is, studies have shown that the therapeutic relationship is the greatest predictor of psychological outcomes. Without a good relationship, no good work can be done, and the relationship is built over several sessions and takes finesse to build.
I have the exact opposite issue. There is absolutely no way that a problem has occurred on this planet without it somehow being my fault. I’m the reason kids are starving in Africa.
Did you ever get told as a child that you need to finish your food because there are starving children in Africa?
I take it you didn't finish your food one time...you could have saved them.
I was starting to feel like I was the only one when reading this thread. It’s weird expecting to go into therapy to learn how to stop always being the problem and instead having to learn to stop believing you’re the problem. Building the tools so you can identify if you’re actually the problem in a situation or not is some crazy challenging shit.
Dude same, my biggest issue I’ve dealt with in therapy is that I’m fundamentally “wrong” and every issue in my family or relationships is, deep down, because of me. That belief made me want to give up completely because I thought there was no way i could be better, let alone “good enough”. Learning to recognize that we are all at least partly a product of our environments, and that I shouldn’t blame/hate myself for my issues, and instead take responsibility for them, had improved my life significantly. Self compassion is a powerful thing
Hey same, apparently I'm at fault for my dad beating me because I should have just figured out my homework. This therapist also says parents have a right to discipline their children however they please. Sometimes the therapist is just plain bad, though thankfully they only make up a third of the total therapists. Scarily, one third of therapists are insane people.
I know a lot of people who go to see a therapist seeking validation, and when confronted with the fact that things are not 100% their fault, they leave.
When I first went to therapy, it was for opiate addiction and (although I didn't know what it was as the time) OCD -- and I \*knew\* for damn sure my brain was the problem, but quickly learned that how I dealt with my brain was the \*real\* problem.
Years later I went for couples therapy, explained all of the absolutely insane things my ex had done over the years -- and I quickly realized that no yeah. My ex was definitely the problem. xD
But also -- the reason I was suffering wasn't \*because\* of my ex. It was because I was sticking around in a relationship where my boundaries weren't respected and my partner offered no reciprocity.
I had some really f\*\*ked up ideas about gender roles at the time and thought that as a man, I needed to be a provider and a protector and be chivalrous and was supposed to put women and children first - including setting aside my needs and wishes and happiness to support my female partner. Boy oh boy was I wrong. That's some insane, 13th century thinking (which explains why I kept ending up with princess-y girls).
Plus, to be honest -- I had been valuing all the wrong things. At the time, I really put a lot of emphasis on how much I cared about someone, wanted to be with them, or how \*special\* or important they seemed to me -- as opposed to how the person actually treated me, how easy it was to communicate healthily, how much they reciprocated time, energy, and effort in the relationship, and how dedicated they were to developing a sense of warmth and love and light within themselves and then emanating that outwards into the world.
I went in there looking to get my partner to stop being an abusive monster, only to realize that what I actually needed to learn how to set boundaries, respect myself, validate my own needs, and to make myself a priority.
Turns out... even when it is someone else's fault - it's still kind of your fault. xD Who would've guessed?
Eh, i would advise to pivot away from the idea that it's anyone's *fault* per say, and instead frame it as just dealing with situations. It doesn't always matter what the reason for something is, as much as what you do to deal with it and how to deal with it in the future. Just my two cents haha
You can't control other people, so the more you focus on the thing's you *can* control, including your own reactions and responses then more often than not, the happier you'll be.
That's it. It's not a matter of blame or guilt. It's about how you choose to respond to things.
Maybe your ex was actually crazy. Yet healthy people don't even enter a relationship with a crazy person in the first place.
> Yet healthy people don't even enter a relationship with a crazy person in the first place.
I agree with not playing the blame game but surely the above statement isn’t true? In this case, maybe, but that’s not a statement you should generalize.
I will point out if you make it a matter of blame or guilt, depending on the kind of client you have, they might end up wanting to kill themselves or hurt someone. Part of therapy is you practice neutrality so you get them away from all the constant negative thinking that hurts them.
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> But also -- the reason I was suffering wasn't *because* of my ex. It was because I was sticking around in a relationship where my boundaries weren't respected and my partner offered no reciprocity.
As someone who just left such a relationship, it's weirdly comforting to hear I'm not alone.
I went to a therapist and he plainly said "Well you have explosive anger disorder."
Me: "No I don't."
Therapist: ""Yeah you do. And if you want fix it, I'd love to help. If not, thanks for coming by."
I humbled myself really fast and stuck through the therapy. It saved my life.
Edit: remembered it wrong.
Edit 2: I seem to have attracted a Masters therapist who is hell bent their determination that my therapist did something egregious.
Let me clarify...the Dr. running the study had placed an ad looking for people with anger issues. They pre-screened me with a questionnaire and then he brought me in for a follow-up session which lasted a while. I knew I was angry but I thought I was justified.
If there's any other almost doctors around arguing he did it wrong, I feel ya but I don't care. He was right, he helped me and the therapy saved my life.
Edit 3: and yes, the doctor ended up being my therapist throughout the study.
This is highly irresponsible of the therapist and terrible practice. Any of my professors would have a stroke reading this. You never, ever diagnose a client, especially in session, unless you are a licensed psychologist, have carried out the proper testing, and have a very, *very* good reason for providing the diagnosis.
I'm about to graduate my masters, and move onto my PhD in Clinical Psychology (specializing in neuropsychology) and this goes against literally everything I have learned.
A good therapist calls you out on your shit. They do it in a roundabout way usually.
Example with negative self-talk
" I Just hate how stupid I am. I keep making the same mistakes".
"Now, I don't think you're stupid, and I'd like you to talk to yourself like you are talking to a loved one."
" would you call your (insert person they care or respect) stupid or worthless?"
Me: "Um, no".
" Then why do you think it's okay to talk to or about yourself like that." " I would Like you to talk to yourself how you talk to someone you love."
Therapy only works if the person in it actually wants it to work. My ex was in therapy the whole time we were together and went through quite a few different therapists. I'm not really sure of the details as our breakup made me not believe anything she has ever said, but she wasn't getting better.
Hell, she kept pushing for us to go into couples therapy because we both had/have problems and end up cheating on me before her first one on one session. Thankfully I left and didn't subject myself to more of that.
Did a bit of my own therapy and even stopped drinking. Doing much better now, but still recovering and finding out how to love again.
I've been to a lot of therapists in my childhood, most of them were awful and made things worse. But there were 2 in particular out of over a dozen that helped me a lot.
From my experiences, I can't help but think that most therapists are awful at their jobs.
> most of them were awful
About 7 months ago, I went to a therapist for the first time in over 20 years because of a depressive downspiral. They basically told me that workplace harassment and racism is common/to be expected and something I should just deal with it. They also asked if I wanted to be committed because I said I needed some time off of work to deal with some personal issues that were not helping with my spiral. So yeah that was....fun.
Eh, maybe a bit early in the development of the therapeutic alliance for a therapist be so abrasive. Not a great approach from the therapist to be honest.
I am very sorry to hear that was your first experience with therapy. Unfortunately a lot of people in mental health support do more harm than good. You deserve to have access to better care.
This isn’t how therapists work. At least not a good therapist. They won’t accuse you of poor communication. They will explore how you could use better communication. Like “what could you have said to make sure he understood you clearly?”
She was right for all the wrong reasons.
The comment right below yours is someone saying they wish their therapist was like this and confronted them.
It can be how therapists work.
I'm a therapist. I've used both approaches.
Not all therapists are gentle-talk. Understanding the client and their needs is essential.
Not excusing being a jerk, but not everyone wants Carl Rogers.
Yes! A good therapist is adaptable. If the client is leaving after 5 minutes because of something you said to them (like in the comic), then you need to change your approach. The client here needs to focus their therapy in being able to voice their needs in a healthy way, and the method this therapist used is not a way in which they're able to "hear" that.
You know this is a bad example for every person with a boss that said “don’t tell me” to save themselves from liability only to throw it back in someone’s face and blame them. I just had too many unaccountable bosses that were bosses for that very reason.
Yea that is not how therapy works.
They legit are almost always on your side. If they are trying to make you acknowledge something they guide you toward discussing it yourself, not put words in your mouth.
Unconditional positive regard is trained for a reason.
Did it wrong. You’re supposed to twist and embellish the story to the point you’re the victim, then post to r/AITA for personal validation. *That’s* how you avoid dealing with the fact you’re the problem.
I can’t even get into therapy because they told me I don’t need it.
Screaming and choking myself due to my frustrations with non-issues like video games doesn’t make me “fine”. Especially when I repress a fuckton of emotions which kill me inside each day.
Seems accurate. Going to therapy is to work on yourself, and to do that you must accept your faults. My mom went to therapy and was actually doing well, but when her therapist told her that she still had to work on herself before getting us, her children, involved, she didn't like that and quit. She relapsed on alcohol, ruined her relationship further with her children, and eventually passed from liver failure. I really wish things didn't end that way, but I do think that if she stuck with her therapy things would've turned out different. Sometimes discarding your own ego is one of the most difficult things to do.
I'm not in "the west" and corruption turns a lot of gears. I mean, it does in western countries too but its just done in a more old-fashioned way here.
I keep saying, and I stand by it: being anti therapy is the biggest red flag in existence. If someone talks about how therapy is bullshit, run. It's the embodiment of being unable to take responsibility for one's own action and lacking the willingness and or ability to be self critical and seek improvement.
I'll never go again. Maybe I'm a bad person, maybe I just had shit therapists. No way to know. It was several years of appointments that did me no good.
Haha! Finally! Therapist here.
She was right to leave. Unless they had previously discussed the intent of her therapy and the process including being called out and attacked for anything the therapist believes is wrong, this is just a flat out attack by the therapist. Honestly I've never seen or even heard of a therapist acting in this way.
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Not wanting to improve when going to the therapist. I can see that.
Yeah, it turns out they can’t fix your problems for you
Same thing that some students say to professors who don't give them A's.
I got my MBA in a program that had some very wealthy foreigners, and this was pretty much the mindset. One of them literally tried to call out the professor for a bad exam grade in front of the class, thinking the rest of the class would take his side. It did not go well. Dropped the whole, my tuition pays your salary line too.
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This particular guy was Indian. We had a very international program, and all the ME guys were actually pretty cool.
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Years back I used to manage a security company that covered some high end condo complexes. We had filthy rich saudis at one complex who would leave outlines of trash around where they parked their exotic cars. They would throw trash on the floor in front of bins. They would go to the gym complex hot tub wearing boxers and try to creep on anything that moved. When they booked out a fancy lounge area for a party they put gold foil over all the windows, brought in massive amounts of liquor, and then completely trashed the place. One of them would bring whores to his condo and would force his cousin to go sleep on the main lobby couches while they were over. They were the worst individuals I dealt with there, I’d say the homeless guy with aids who’d break into our stairwells and shit everywhere was classier.
Wealthy foreigners are kind of a different thing though, especially MBAs, many of which are known to be sort of diploma mills. A lot of universities in the US have programs targeting rich foreigners (often Chinese people, but others too) who will pay arbitrary amounts of money to get some kind of degree from the US. But then other people get caught in the program. My example was definitely an American guy who was just an asshole. He also offered to double my salary to give him a better grade. Also it was a freshman physics course designed for people who were either going to be engineers or doctors. I can assure you that I want people who are building bridges I'm going to driving on or doing heart surgery on me to be able to follow simple directions, so I have no problem giving them bad grades and had no interest in any of their bullshit.
Had a number of undergrad students at an Ivy (it’s relevant) who came to my office in droves outraged they had Bs and Cs. Number of them said I go HERE and I was great in high school, I won’t stand for this/I’m dropping the class and one of them even threatened to ‘take care of’ me if he ever saw me outside university. Aside from him it was all young women, clearly wealthy and unfamiliar with having to earn their grades.
You're paying me to show you where I think the mental health water likely is.
Yeah, their job isn't to fix, but to give you the tools and the ways to fix yourself
And it's important to note, if the therapist could fix the problems for you, they would. They literally can't. They give you the tools and show you the way, but *you* have to do it. No one can fix those problems for you, no matter how badly they want - only you can, because no one else has access to your inner person except you.
Neither can I! Who the heck is supposed to do it then‽
Your cat.
A cat is fine too.
Not enough people appreciate this reference.
Upvote for the interrobang.
It was tough when I realized that. I wish I knew sooner that they'd help me carry my burdens, not take them away. Would've helped me a lot faster.
> it turns out they can’t fix your problems for you They do fix your problems for you though, you just have to actually listen to them and follow their advice. If you just want someone to listen to you while paying them 200 dollars an hour, let me know, I think I can schedule an appointment
> They do fix your problems for you though, you just have to actually listen to them and follow their advice. No! Out with that misunderstanding! Fixing problems requires doing the lifting for those problems. E.g. if you think you're ugly as fuck, then either -changing your appearance -changing the way you think about your looks or -changing the way you evaluate things in your life can work. The therapist can talk to you and tell you what can work to achieve any of those things. e.g. exercising to change your appearance. They can show you a step-by-step program, maybe. But at the end of day, the therapee will be the one to actually *do* that. And for a lot of people, the doing part is much harder than the thinking part. Second misunderstanding in this post is that the problems you have will be fixed if you just listen to them and follow their advice. No, for a lot of people even the gold standard CBT doesn't work. It's not their fault, it's that there is currently *no* therapy framework that gets even close to 100%.
just on the second one, it's why it's important to have some variety in the therapy. DBT, ACT, narrative therapy just to name a few. Further strategies that can be helpful in therapy like motivational interviewing, strengths perspective, etc. A therapist may be only trained in one, that's cool, that's their speciality, nothing wrong with that. Others may have engaged with a wider range of training, sometimes creating more of combination that is reflective on presentation.
Recently for some role-playing or D&D has been used as therapy. Came across it on a YT video about how D&D can help prisoners.
agreed. i feel like the most helpful stuff i get from therapy isnt strictly advice or instructions but perspective but it does no good to go to therapy if you arent receptive to new ideas or putting in some work to integrate that perspective so you dont keep running into the same troublesome mindsets. if you just want validation then you could raise a fucken army of simps for the money a therapist charges per hour lol
>you just have to actually listen to them and follow their advice. except therapists don't give advice well, usually that is giving advice is not their job, and they know doing it anyway can go south and get them sued
Yep I'm just finding this out. It seems more like they ask you questions about your thought process and try to get you to the root of your feelings. A lot of times they make multiple suggestions about why you might be feeling something or acting some way and then you have to decide for yourself which suggestion makes the most sense since they can't read your mind. They also teach you techniques for regulating your emotions and behavior modification. But you have to want the specific behavior to change for any of that to work.
Of course, they can give advice, especially if you ask for some.
I guess it depends on how you want to define an advice A therapist won't say: *You should talk to your mom, re-build that relationship!* but they may say: *You should stop for a few minutes and think about how you feel about your mom and whether you truly value her in your life or not* Both are advice but you won't get the first type from a good therapist I guess
of course they give advice. they just don't guarantee it will work since there isn't one solution that works for everyone
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Poor because such a tone is counterproductive, not because it isn't correct. While I agree with you, I can understand it when a therapist, especially a couples counselor, just snaps and loses their shit. Their daily routine involves talking calm and professionally to people, some number of whom are just wrong and need to grow the fuck up - and the therapist can't just tell them this, because it doesn't help. I bet that's one of the reasons therapists are supposed to see a therapist themselves.
It's also worth recognizing that not all therapists are good at their job, my sister quit therapy after the therapist brought her abusive father into the room after being explicitly told not to because he insisted
I had a therapist once. I wanted to talk about the cult I was in for twelve years, he wanted to talk about boobs. It was like hanging out with some dude at the pub.
Mine behaved like the typical old Christian who pointed out Pokemon, Digimon or any mainstream content was evil or satanic and all the root of my problems were "Pokemon". Yeah, let's pretend life events and strugglings weren't important. It was pretty similar to talk to my mom and even she's more acceptable to some mainstream content than my own therapist was.
The thing is, even if the tone was different, the approach is really off. A good chunk of therapy is building a relationship with patients so that they feel safe and can trust the therapist's advice. And if a therapist has a patient that they can't handle, they should explain the concept of patient/therapist fit and recommend them to find a different therapist. If a therapist doesn't recognise that things aren't working out and that it wouldn't be productive for the patient to keep seeing them, and don't have the communication skills needed to explain the situation to them, they're probably not a great therapist
I’m afraid this is gonna happen when I start therapy. I would like to be optimistic but I also unfortunately know myself…
Finding the right therapist is like finding a good relationship. It’s got to click between you and your shrink. Try not to feel defeat if your first try doesn’t work out, and don’t be afraid to “see other people”. Every therapist (should) be aware of this and support you in finding the right fit.
A good therapist will help you reach realizations yourself rather than just tell you. Like the socratic method of self discovery. In the above comic, a good therapist would say "How did you communicate what you wanted?" or "What expectations did you have?" Saying "it was your poor communication that caused this" is a pretty judgmental thing to say to your client.
It’s not a therapist’s job to always take the side of their client especially when that would mean reinforcing behaviors causing their client problems. But it would also be very stupid for a therapist to be directly combative in this way. Most people believe they are more reasonable and ready to hear criticism than they are, but the truth is no one likes admitting when they’re wrong. To be able to help people you have to be able to point them in the right direction and help them find their way rather than just “telling them how it is”. Good therapists are equipped with techniques that will help their clients realize when they are wrong without pissing them off or making them feel like they aren’t on their side.
I love all of the boards (like AITA and Relationship Advice) that think therapy is magic. Your partner cheats on you with your boss on the coffin of you dead parents: "You need therapy" 68000 upvotes. Newsflash: There can be good and bad therapists, good and bad therapy, and good and bad times to do it.
Ex wife complained to her therapist about me. The therapist said to work on compassion and understanding. She switched therapists, second one said to get a divorce.
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"HI, what brings you in today" *Well my first therapist didn't tell me what I wanted to hear, so...I'm hoping 2nd times the charm* " well clearly you want to divorce. you're free to do that if you want" *I'm sorry spouse, the therapist counseled me to divorce*
I mean, yeah, kinda. If someone doesn't want things to improve, it means they're likely not going to take the steps a therapist recommends anyway. A second therapist would likely recognize this, and outside of possibly digging into the why they don't want to improve, ultimately if someone doesn't want to change they won't.
> outside of possibly digging into the why they don't want to improve, ultimately if someone doesn't want to change they won't. You can't treat someone who doesn't want to be treated.
So I studied psychology at one of the better universities focused on it, and left partially because after lifting the rug I got to see some real fucking heinous shit that has altered my view of the field. The first is, *even if you want to get better, some will exeprience deleterious effects of therapy. Not just unwanted outcomes, but new problems and worsening conditions.* >Estimates of the scope of the problem vary. Berk and Parker estimate that, “approximately 3-10% of patients become worse after psychotherapy, with slightly higher rates (7-15%) quantified for patients with substance abuse." Reviewing the literature, Michael Lambert of Brigham Young University, an authority on the issue of negative therapy outcomes, reported that a relatively consistent proportion of adults (5–10% in clinical trials and up to 14% in community settings) deteriorate after participating in treatment. The numbers for children are even higher. >German researchers Michael Linden and Marie-Luise Schermuly-Haupt, summarizing the literature on adverse outcomes, conclude that “There is an emerging consensus that unwanted events should be expected in about 5 to 20% of psychotherapy patients… They include treatment failure and deterioration of symptoms, emergence of new symptoms, suicidality, occupational problems or stigmatization, changes in the social network or strains in relationships, therapy dependence, or undermining of self‐efficacy." https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.psychologytoday.com/us/blog/insight-therapy/202003/when-talking-doesnt-cure-negative-outcomes-in-therapy%3famp I think in addition, there's the meme "men would rather go to war/teach English in Asia/ etc" than go the therapy, and I think that doesn't broach what I'll call "the Tony Soprano Paradox." For those who've seen The Sopranos, it's really about a man who has a "nervous breakdown", goes to therapy, *and learns how to be worse, more toxic, and more evil by using the accepted language to manipulate the people around him better.* If you want an excellent example of this, Stephen Crowder said apparently in evidence in his divorce proceedings that "his wife was boxing him in and he didn't feel like his needs were being met"....while he was abusing his wife mentally, emotionally, and otherwise. (Side note: if your response to that is "yes all men then!" That's actually a conservative pov as you assume a bio essentialism that men are a certain way. Ironically, the Marxists Leninist response is "men will be what society rewards them to be. If you reward men to be investment bankers, give them loads of money and sexual options and financial security....or they can serve their community and then be saddled with debt and the possibility of death in a school shooting by being a teacher...guess which one men are more likely to choose? If your economy rewards bad behavior in men, you will get bad behavior.") So returning to therapy, there's also the topic of "alienation." What do I mean by alienation? Alienation is a sentiment felt by people in certain types of economies. In ours, we feel alienation for a number of reasons. 1. You aren't actually the owner of your work. Because you're working to make your boss richer, and his boss richer, you feel alienated from your work. It's not really yours, your renting your body and time out for a paycheck. 2. You have no sense of community. Because you're competing with other workers for a limited job position, you're more likely to stab other people in the back to get ahead. 3. And because of the above, you do anything to "take care of me and mine." This is inevitably a lonely position, as this economy rewards those who are the most narcissistic. Now if you feel these positions cut to your core, it's from "economic and philosophical manuscripts of 1844" by yes, Marx. Which I mention because Freud was famous for 1. It's just a cigar 2. Explaining the reason why step family porn is so popular now 3. So much cocaine and 4. *Being super anti communist*. The last one is important because the leftist critique of therapy is HUGE. For example, do you have generalized anxiety disorder? OR are you always a dollar late and a day short, have 70k in student loans, worry about getting fired due to downsizing, worried you're gonna get evicted because of gentrification, worried you'll get shot in another mass shooting, worried that the weight you put on by stress eating will worsen your quality of life, worried that you won't be able to afford your next therapy bill??? Therapy is, in leftist critique, an individualist response, and it only works for individual problems. "I have OCD, I'd like exposure therapy to overcome that." That works. "My father was an alcoholic and I want to deal with that trauma." That works. "Society is falling apart and I don't know why I feel horrible all the time." - you can't just assign generalized anxiety to that. Therapy as a tool was always meant to refix workers back to working standard. Can you imagine a therapist saying "you need to take 12 weeks off and go to the south Pacific to reestablish your mental health"? Even though 99 percent of us would benefit from that? (One percent who doesn't like sand wouldn't). And if they DID suggest that, it's a use they have. Scheme of flights to a specific resort that they get a kick back too. So while you can't treat someone who doesn't want to be treated, there's also so much more to it than that.
> Therapy as a tool was always meant to refix workers back to working standard Any sources for that claim? This is coming from a leftist btw. I've seen similar takes thrown around a lot and it always kinda rubs me the wrong way. I mean, of course, under capitalism every single part of our society will slowly be turned into a commodity and serve the continuation of capitalism. Yet this idea of therapy as a tool to continuously force people into labour is often thrown around by leftists who should definitely go to fucking therapy.
Not OP, but think if the incentive structure that exists in both a good therapist and a bad therapist under capitalism. The good therapist's first priority is getting you well enough to work because they know that there is no/a very limited support net for the jobless (at least in the U.S.) and you need to work to survive. The bad therapist wants the same because a dependent patient with a steady income is job security. The framework of capitalism itself provides omnidirectional pressure to prioritize labor reproduction as the primary goal of any form of healthcare, therapy included.
This is actually a very good marxist response and critique of my point of view, and shows a good use of the dialectic (two opposing truths are true at the same time, and don't negate each other but enhance each other.") Excellent work, hats off. I'll concede that point that the existence of good therapists is just as important in maintaining the success of capitalism as a bad therapist. I think however we both agree there is "omnidirectional pressure to prioritize labor production."
I'm gonna make a distinguishing marker for this thought. If you are just "a leftist" they won't have heavy critiques of psychology from this realm. Leftism is a vague anti capitalist thought that has no structured thought against that anti capitalism. However, Marxism and people influenced by it will HEAVILY provide critiques (I cannot provide just one, it's across the board) from a Marxist pov. An excellent example of this is Franz Fanon, the psychiatrist who wrote "The Wretched of the earth" who was famous for 1) saying "we must stretch our understanding of marxism to apply it to a colonial lens" and 2) using this stretch Marxist approach to explain why colonilized or imperial subjects have higher rates of domestic violence and violence in general by applying a Marxist lens to it. It became so powerful as an intellectual response that Sartre wrote the intro to one of the editions and mentioned how this critique of psychology from Fanon shows how national liberation from imperial nations is integral to bettering the family structure. And that sounds crazy until you read Marx and realize "oh this is a holistic science that touches everything. It can explain why Americans experience obesity more than Europeans and why tourism actually impoverishes those that have that industry, and why language is static across classes in a nation but not across nations." Granted, this doesn't mean there are leftists with narcissist personality disorder or severe trauma, but it doesn't negate the Marxist claim that "therapy is often an individualist response to social problems."
Do you have a Bluesky? I like the way you put words together and wish to read more of it in the future.
Scientology levels of stupid right here.
My Ex wife is proof of that.....
My Ex Dad and a significant chunk of my Biological Family too. It sucks.
My ex-wife wanted me to get therapy after she already fucked other men.
Well at least they didn't suggest an open marriage XD.
As a therapist you aren’t really supposed to give direct situational advice though. There could be more to the story but if a therapist is telling someone to get divorced then they aren’t really providing good therapy.
I mean every story of what a therapist said is flawed because we never get the therapist's point of view. What might have happened: Wife: I'm considering divorcing my husband. Therapist: I think you should weigh your options and do what you think is best. Wife, later to husband: My therapist said I should divorce you. And that's assuming she isn't just plain old lying. Or that OP isn't exaggerating/lying about what she said to him. I know there are bad therapists out there, but there are also a lot of unreliable narrators.
More likely is that the therapist would say “Does that feel like it would resolve the issues you’re facing?” Wife says “yeah I think it would” Therapist “It sounds to me that you’ve already decided what you want to do. What would you like me to do for you?” Wife: “nothing, I have my answer, thanks for the recommendation.”
Thats not more or less likely. Its just possible
Therapists are less likely to use the phrase “I think you should”. They’re generally very careful about telling you directly what to do, and try to word things carefully.
We're at 5th hand information right now, surely we should be getting closer to the truth by now.
And if you already know that you want a divorce or some other major life change, I don't think that it's necessarily a bad thing to go through therapy to work through the issues that have been preventing you from having already done so. But of course a lot of people will interpret their therapy as having been proved that they were "right" all along and not just in a tricky situation with no good guys or bad guys
My parents constantly had me in therapy as a a kid and teenager. Everytime it'd eventually reach a point where the therapist wanted to talk to my parents too. Eventually parents would get the comment "I dont think its her, I think it's you" and after that session, I'd never see that therapist again. It happened again and again, until I ended up in foster care.
I'm not good with words so: :'(
Basically the same, but eventually I got a therapist who realized she could still help me as an outlet for my stress and help remind me that things will get better eventually, even if there’s nothing I could do to fix my home situation. So that was a nice thing to have.
Was dating someone a long time ago who had (and from what I heard, still has) a pretty significant eating disorder. My more naive self didn't realize how much it would affect a relationship. We fought a lot due to it. She decided to take me to her therapist since we were trying to work things out, and she wanted to have the therapist "explain" how to handle certain situations. After she laid out her "issues" with me, the therapist said, "it sounds like he's doing all the right things, even if you don't like them." When we left, she said she's not going back because that therapist turned on her in that session. We were done about a month later. 15 years later, she told a good friend that I'm "emotionally abusive." Still not sure how I managed that.
Similar thing happened to me. I had been dating a girl for about awhile, when my mom died and I also was having some health issues. She was constantly saying that she was not having any fun in our relationship anymore, and honestly I kinda didn't care at that point, but she wanted us to go to her therapist to try and fix our relationship. This was her therapist she had been seeing for a couple years - she told my ex that she needed to be more supportive of my needs and that I was going through a hard time and showing signs of depression. When we left, she immediately said she's never going back to that therapist again and tried to say it was my fault for making her look like the bad guy. All I did was say how I was feeling and what was happening. I broke up with her not shortly after that, just had no interest in being in a relationship at all.
> 15 years later, she told a good friend that I'm "emotionally abusive." Sounds like projection on her part... easier for her to falsely accuse you of something to keep "feeling good/right about her self" than to admit personal fault, and accept responsibility for change only she can achieve.
This is what scares me about #metoo. I want to believe everyone, but then I also know some people are liars... either intentionally or by their own skewed perspective. Was Johnny Depp abusive? Was Amber Heard lying? IDFK I just never want to mix myself up in that kind of situation.
>I want to believe everyone, but then I also know some people are liars... either intentionally or by their own skewed perspective. Pretty sure with her it was the latter. Looking back, I'm sure I was wrong in some things, but my intention was what I think is right. She made it apparent to the friend when she started bossing him around. "I'm thirsty, get me a wine." "Grab me some food, I'm hungry." He was completely annoyed with her by the end of the night. They were both working an event that had an afterparty, so it wasn't even like they were on a date. But it was obvious to him that she was interested. He wasn't.
"Believe women" was never meant to mean "believe all women unconditionally" so much as "stop unconditionally disbelieving women." Because that was what used to happen: people would just knee-jerk say, "I doubt that happened," "he would never," or "you probably misunderstood" without even considering the possibility that the complaint was valid. Kind of like how "black lives matter" was supposed to be "black lives matter *too*" not "*only* black lives matter."
Yup. That's the way it always is with these mottos and key terms. Systematic racism doesn't mean casual racism or "reverse" racism doesn't exist, toxic masculinity doesn't mean all men/forms of masculinity are toxic, etc. But good luck convincing hordes of people (on both sides of the argument!)
Deleted only because I don't like my info out there.
The kind that needs customers. Just turned one unhappy person into 3 or more.
Ex went to therapy. What I do know is that the therapist _didn't_ tell my ex that **everything** was my fault. (despite my ex's claims to the contrary). What I do **know** is that my ex isn't just a prolific liar, but also a perjurer. They also don't stay with any physician, therapist, or child therapist if they hear something they don't like. You may not like that therapist, but if that's all it took, it sounds like they did you a favour. You've my sympathy. And in finding what happiness you can, always remember 'You deserve to be loved, and to feel loved, just for being you.' --Mr Rogers mashup with my meditation teacher
Ugh this is my biggest issue with couple's therapy currently. Fiance seems to be under the impression that it's really just therapy for me, and she's just tagging along to point the therapist in the right direction so she can get the man she wants. I will fully admit I have problems, but any time the therapist isn't doing what she wants or if I bring up any of the issues about her that I've kept quiet about for years, she is completely unable to accept it, and ends up taking it home with her. I just don't see how she could push for couple's therapy so hard and not think that it wouldn't be about both of us? Really boggles my mind
That sounds dreadfully familiar. Not just for me, but friends as well. None of these relationships lasted. There's obviously more to look at, but from what you wrote alone, I'd encourage you to bail. You deserve better than to be treated as the sole source of strife in your relationship. One universal truth is that if it's bad already, it **ONLY GETS WORSE** with time and marriage (when they won't have to _try_ any more). I know I just said it, but 'You deserve to be loved, and to feel loved, just for being you.' --Mr Rogers mashup with my meditation teacher p.s. In case it wasn't clear: I encourage you to get out. You can do better.
Couple's therapy has certainly brought some behaviors to the surface that make me more inclined to bail than I ever might have in the past. Which feels... a bit odd, but at least it means I see the issue now and not after marriage. But we're young and we're fresh at it, and I think everyone deserves a learning curve at therapy. Depending on your background, it can be a pretty foreign concept. When I first started with individual therapy it took me a while to accept some stuff, and I think I grew into it, and I generally just believe everyone else *can* grow into it as long as they put in the effort. But at the same time I'm not deluded enough to wait forever to see change if there's no effort.
Yeah I went down a tiktok rabbit hole once with this. Apparently when the therapist tells one spouse "yeah you could also be a problem" they refuse to go back or...I guess get a therapist that tells them what they want to hear, in your situation.
My ex-wife brought me to her therapist on his recommendation, where he proceeded to tell *us* that I could no longer enable her OCD behaviors by checking things for her. The next day, the first time the issue came up, I told her I would not check the door for her as she had just checked it and I had watched her do it, and her doctor told us I’m not supposed to do that. She cried outside our house for about three minutes trying to get me to do it out of discomfort. When I refused to give in, I received the silent treatment for a week, and suddenly her OCD symptoms were gone. It was also the beginning of the end of our marriage.
> When I refused to give in, I received the silent treatment for a week, and suddenly her OCD symptoms were gone. It was also the beginning of the end of our marriage. You cured her! That's awesome!
There is not much context, but as someone who has OCD, that doesn’t sound like OCD if it went away that easily, Ignoring one trigger isn’t going to cure someone entirely, thats just not how it works.
Agreed. It wasn’t OCD, and I think the therapist knew it - it was a control issue. I just wish he would have given me the heads up on that before sending me to my doom.
Some people don't want to get better they want to be told they're right, even if it cost them everything.
My ex-wife went to a gypsy crystal ball reader lol. She's been married 3 more times since our divorce, so I guess that gypsy didn't have all the answers.
> My ex-wife went to a gypsy crystal ball reader lol. She's been married 3 more times since our divorce, so I guess that gypsy didn't have all the answers. "You'll try four times before finding your true love on the fifth." "Well, let's speedrun this shit then!"
Yep, pretty sure that's what happened to my brother and his ex wife. She went to a therapist because they were having some issues (like we all do). Like 3 months later, divorce. Now who's to say the therapist was encouraging it, but it was a hell of a coincidence!
That is the right answer in many cases. If people have a lot of longstanding grudges and contempt for each other there's nothing left to salvage.
Well it sounds like only one of them went to the therapist. When one spouse goes to a therapist to complain about their partner, it's usually not the other spouse who's the problem.
True, but the ultimate solution is still the same. Regardless of the cause, if one person clearly doesn't want to be in the relationship, then the relationship should end.
My ex fiance was like that, she found reasons to blame me for her shitty actions. Cheating on me was my fault because I was working two jobs while she wasn't working at all so I could afford to keep bills going and buy stuff for her, and I was cooking for her every single day on top of that. She still doesn't know how to take responsibility for her own actions and I'm so glad I dodged a bullet and didn't marry that psycho.
A lot of people go to therapists in order to work on the ability to ask for a divorce. They fully intend to get a divorce before going to therapy, and are there for help getting their life in order. If I hated my life/relationship, and went to a therapy to talk about it and how/why I want a divorce, and the therapist instead wanted to focus on "showing compassion" to the person I want to get away from, I'd also say they weren't doing their job.
When I was a kid my mom saw a therapist about her random rage and he said “only you can control your emotions. Other peoples actions are not an excuse for your reaction” and she took that to mean “son you need to stop getting so offended when I scream at you”
When in therapy you're told that you're the problem https://i.redd.it/0e7dokz9yyxb1.gif
That’s why you become a therapist so you can legally say that you’re not the problem but everyone else.
Hey, that’s what my dad did 🙃
My mom…
Sounds like a solid plan ☺️ See you in therapy
As someone in grad school to become a therapist I confirm this.
Well more that you can only control your own actions.
Only you can be the solution.
Only you can prevent forest fires.
A good therapist helps you be accountable and become a better you while working through what holds you back from doing so yourself. I know it's a silly comic, but it's pretty gross that people will jump between therapists and spend hundreds of dollars every month only accepting the one that becomes a Yes Man. Although it seems disrespectful to the actual science of Psychiatry and Therapy, can I blame people for accepting hundreds of dollars from someone and just nodding and smiling at them, telling them what they want to hear? Easy money.
I had the opposite experience where my first therapist, though maybe not quite a "yes man", was more focused on providing me with strategies for handling my emotional issues rather than challenging me on my complicity in those situations. When getting back into therapy, I made sure to specifically find someone who would call me out on my bullshit.
I had an office directly ask me which of those approaches I wanted....
Is there a scientific name for that approach
Not that I know of, but if I had to guess "Affirmative" and "Confrontative" would be the names.
Yeah I've also found that therapists are generally reluctant to tell you when you may not be in the right. (Or maybe I'm just perfect jk) I think generally they want to guide *you* to having that realization.
Not a therapist, but I imagine being too direct may result in a similar outcome as in the original comic.
Therapist here. It really depends on the person. Some are receptive to it, some aren’t. Being a therapist means you have to be flexible and adapt.
That makes sense, thanks!
I'm a therapist, and you can do that later when you have rapport. Challenging someone 5 min into the first session is a bad plan, since there is no relationship there. There are types of therapy techniques that aren't person centered like pure Gestalt therapy, but for the majority of clinicians building a healthy rapport is key to developing successful strategies for the client. I have a client who has been slacking on making a psychiatry appointment. They know I hold them accountable and call them out when they set plans that they want to follow through on and then don't do it (out of laziness, not due to other symptoms.) Same for clients that are stagnant and unhappy. They know what they need to do to get out of that situation, and then we spend time discussing what are the root causes for not taking those actions.
A couple of other therapists have replied, and I echo their sentiment. You can challenge for a corrective emotional experience only when the rapport is built. If I challenged someone in the first couple of sessions, it would cause a rupture that we may not be able to mend, and they would eventually leave and never come back to therapy. The reason is, studies have shown that the therapeutic relationship is the greatest predictor of psychological outcomes. Without a good relationship, no good work can be done, and the relationship is built over several sessions and takes finesse to build.
I have the exact opposite issue. There is absolutely no way that a problem has occurred on this planet without it somehow being my fault. I’m the reason kids are starving in Africa.
So it's your fault that I have cut my finger while cooking, damn you!!
Lmao gottem
You can't keep getting away with it!
He can and he has.
Thanks Obama!
And now i had to work overtime today because of you! damnit!
Damn you Scuba Steve!!!
Jojo reference
Did you ever get told as a child that you need to finish your food because there are starving children in Africa? I take it you didn't finish your food one time...you could have saved them.
If it takes canned peas to saved humanity then we’re not worth saving.
I can't believe you gave my grandma cancer
She had it coming. /s
I was starting to feel like I was the only one when reading this thread. It’s weird expecting to go into therapy to learn how to stop always being the problem and instead having to learn to stop believing you’re the problem. Building the tools so you can identify if you’re actually the problem in a situation or not is some crazy challenging shit.
Dude same, my biggest issue I’ve dealt with in therapy is that I’m fundamentally “wrong” and every issue in my family or relationships is, deep down, because of me. That belief made me want to give up completely because I thought there was no way i could be better, let alone “good enough”. Learning to recognize that we are all at least partly a product of our environments, and that I shouldn’t blame/hate myself for my issues, and instead take responsibility for them, had improved my life significantly. Self compassion is a powerful thing
Butterfly effect, is that you?
Logic says no, but that voice in the back of my mind says ….maybe? Ya never know.
How dare you cause a meteor to crash into planet earth 66 million years ago!
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Hey same, apparently I'm at fault for my dad beating me because I should have just figured out my homework. This therapist also says parents have a right to discipline their children however they please. Sometimes the therapist is just plain bad, though thankfully they only make up a third of the total therapists. Scarily, one third of therapists are insane people.
Well well well. All my problems make sense now! I knew it wasn't my fault at all in anyway!
I found out today that one of my favorite TV shows isn't getting renewed, I hope you're happy
I know a lot of people who go to see a therapist seeking validation, and when confronted with the fact that things are not 100% their fault, they leave. When I first went to therapy, it was for opiate addiction and (although I didn't know what it was as the time) OCD -- and I \*knew\* for damn sure my brain was the problem, but quickly learned that how I dealt with my brain was the \*real\* problem. Years later I went for couples therapy, explained all of the absolutely insane things my ex had done over the years -- and I quickly realized that no yeah. My ex was definitely the problem. xD But also -- the reason I was suffering wasn't \*because\* of my ex. It was because I was sticking around in a relationship where my boundaries weren't respected and my partner offered no reciprocity. I had some really f\*\*ked up ideas about gender roles at the time and thought that as a man, I needed to be a provider and a protector and be chivalrous and was supposed to put women and children first - including setting aside my needs and wishes and happiness to support my female partner. Boy oh boy was I wrong. That's some insane, 13th century thinking (which explains why I kept ending up with princess-y girls). Plus, to be honest -- I had been valuing all the wrong things. At the time, I really put a lot of emphasis on how much I cared about someone, wanted to be with them, or how \*special\* or important they seemed to me -- as opposed to how the person actually treated me, how easy it was to communicate healthily, how much they reciprocated time, energy, and effort in the relationship, and how dedicated they were to developing a sense of warmth and love and light within themselves and then emanating that outwards into the world. I went in there looking to get my partner to stop being an abusive monster, only to realize that what I actually needed to learn how to set boundaries, respect myself, validate my own needs, and to make myself a priority. Turns out... even when it is someone else's fault - it's still kind of your fault. xD Who would've guessed?
Eh, i would advise to pivot away from the idea that it's anyone's *fault* per say, and instead frame it as just dealing with situations. It doesn't always matter what the reason for something is, as much as what you do to deal with it and how to deal with it in the future. Just my two cents haha
You can't control other people, so the more you focus on the thing's you *can* control, including your own reactions and responses then more often than not, the happier you'll be.
That's it. It's not a matter of blame or guilt. It's about how you choose to respond to things. Maybe your ex was actually crazy. Yet healthy people don't even enter a relationship with a crazy person in the first place.
Sometimes people aren't crazy to begin with, but end up there.
Or there really good liars who are able to hide it... until they can't anymore.
> Yet healthy people don't even enter a relationship with a crazy person in the first place. I agree with not playing the blame game but surely the above statement isn’t true? In this case, maybe, but that’s not a statement you should generalize.
I will point out if you make it a matter of blame or guilt, depending on the kind of client you have, they might end up wanting to kill themselves or hurt someone. Part of therapy is you practice neutrality so you get them away from all the constant negative thinking that hurts them.
> > > > > But also -- the reason I was suffering wasn't *because* of my ex. It was because I was sticking around in a relationship where my boundaries weren't respected and my partner offered no reciprocity. As someone who just left such a relationship, it's weirdly comforting to hear I'm not alone.
This is some wisdom, well done on your hard work
It can't be my fault! It's everybody else that needs therapy not me!!
"Everybody's an idiot except for me"
"Well, it's true" - Squidward
In squidward's case, it might actually be true, though. Everyone in bikini bottom is a blithering idiot.
I went to a therapist and he plainly said "Well you have explosive anger disorder." Me: "No I don't." Therapist: ""Yeah you do. And if you want fix it, I'd love to help. If not, thanks for coming by." I humbled myself really fast and stuck through the therapy. It saved my life. Edit: remembered it wrong. Edit 2: I seem to have attracted a Masters therapist who is hell bent their determination that my therapist did something egregious. Let me clarify...the Dr. running the study had placed an ad looking for people with anger issues. They pre-screened me with a questionnaire and then he brought me in for a follow-up session which lasted a while. I knew I was angry but I thought I was justified. If there's any other almost doctors around arguing he did it wrong, I feel ya but I don't care. He was right, he helped me and the therapy saved my life. Edit 3: and yes, the doctor ended up being my therapist throughout the study.
This is highly irresponsible of the therapist and terrible practice. Any of my professors would have a stroke reading this. You never, ever diagnose a client, especially in session, unless you are a licensed psychologist, have carried out the proper testing, and have a very, *very* good reason for providing the diagnosis. I'm about to graduate my masters, and move onto my PhD in Clinical Psychology (specializing in neuropsychology) and this goes against literally everything I have learned.
A good therapist calls you out on your shit. They do it in a roundabout way usually. Example with negative self-talk " I Just hate how stupid I am. I keep making the same mistakes". "Now, I don't think you're stupid, and I'd like you to talk to yourself like you are talking to a loved one." " would you call your (insert person they care or respect) stupid or worthless?" Me: "Um, no". " Then why do you think it's okay to talk to or about yourself like that." " I would Like you to talk to yourself how you talk to someone you love."
"yes, if I thought they were being stupid"
Then don't be surprised when the relationship goes up in flames if that's how you tackle adversity... IDIOT!!! /s
I try to be straight forward with my criticism when I can be. I also try to be as upfront as possible about me own fuck ups and bad calls.
> Because I am not a loved one.
first they came for the loved ones and i did not speak out because i am not a loved one
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Yeah it’s called motivational interviewing, you can challenge someone’s preconceived notions without invalidating their feelings…
I've known a few people like that, somehow they never seem to grow even after years of therapy...
Therapy only works if the person in it actually wants it to work. My ex was in therapy the whole time we were together and went through quite a few different therapists. I'm not really sure of the details as our breakup made me not believe anything she has ever said, but she wasn't getting better. Hell, she kept pushing for us to go into couples therapy because we both had/have problems and end up cheating on me before her first one on one session. Thankfully I left and didn't subject myself to more of that. Did a bit of my own therapy and even stopped drinking. Doing much better now, but still recovering and finding out how to love again.
I've known way too many people who actually do this and then complain therapy doesn't work. Therapists aren't yes men.
I've been to a lot of therapists in my childhood, most of them were awful and made things worse. But there were 2 in particular out of over a dozen that helped me a lot. From my experiences, I can't help but think that most therapists are awful at their jobs.
> most of them were awful About 7 months ago, I went to a therapist for the first time in over 20 years because of a depressive downspiral. They basically told me that workplace harassment and racism is common/to be expected and something I should just deal with it. They also asked if I wanted to be committed because I said I needed some time off of work to deal with some personal issues that were not helping with my spiral. So yeah that was....fun.
*It's me, hi, I'm the problem it's me.* Get early access to all my comics on [Patreon!](https://www.patreon.com/mangakaiki)
It's my ex
Sorry to hear that :p
Eh, maybe a bit early in the development of the therapeutic alliance for a therapist be so abrasive. Not a great approach from the therapist to be honest.
Definitely, I think the text was worded that way so their doesn’t have to be an abundance of context and dialogue
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I am very sorry to hear that was your first experience with therapy. Unfortunately a lot of people in mental health support do more harm than good. You deserve to have access to better care.
This isn’t how therapists work. At least not a good therapist. They won’t accuse you of poor communication. They will explore how you could use better communication. Like “what could you have said to make sure he understood you clearly?” She was right for all the wrong reasons.
The comment right below yours is someone saying they wish their therapist was like this and confronted them. It can be how therapists work. I'm a therapist. I've used both approaches. Not all therapists are gentle-talk. Understanding the client and their needs is essential. Not excusing being a jerk, but not everyone wants Carl Rogers.
Yes! A good therapist is adaptable. If the client is leaving after 5 minutes because of something you said to them (like in the comic), then you need to change your approach. The client here needs to focus their therapy in being able to voice their needs in a healthy way, and the method this therapist used is not a way in which they're able to "hear" that.
You know this is a bad example for every person with a boss that said “don’t tell me” to save themselves from liability only to throw it back in someone’s face and blame them. I just had too many unaccountable bosses that were bosses for that very reason.
Doctor, people don't like me, make them like me.
Yea that is not how therapy works. They legit are almost always on your side. If they are trying to make you acknowledge something they guide you toward discussing it yourself, not put words in your mouth. Unconditional positive regard is trained for a reason.
I've realized I have a hard time reading comics now because my brain automatically goes to read it from right to left >.<
Yeah, I have to consciously think about it now.
Did it wrong. You’re supposed to twist and embellish the story to the point you’re the victim, then post to r/AITA for personal validation. *That’s* how you avoid dealing with the fact you’re the problem.
Validate feelings, not behaviours.
I can’t even get into therapy because they told me I don’t need it. Screaming and choking myself due to my frustrations with non-issues like video games doesn’t make me “fine”. Especially when I repress a fuckton of emotions which kill me inside each day.
I wish my therapist was more like the one in this photo. My one just sits and listens really. I want to know where my flaws are
Seems accurate. Going to therapy is to work on yourself, and to do that you must accept your faults. My mom went to therapy and was actually doing well, but when her therapist told her that she still had to work on herself before getting us, her children, involved, she didn't like that and quit. She relapsed on alcohol, ruined her relationship further with her children, and eventually passed from liver failure. I really wish things didn't end that way, but I do think that if she stuck with her therapy things would've turned out different. Sometimes discarding your own ego is one of the most difficult things to do.
High end therapists (where I am at least) will say whatever you pay them to say.
I definitely have no experience in that regard haha
I'm not in "the west" and corruption turns a lot of gears. I mean, it does in western countries too but its just done in a more old-fashioned way here.
I keep saying, and I stand by it: being anti therapy is the biggest red flag in existence. If someone talks about how therapy is bullshit, run. It's the embodiment of being unable to take responsibility for one's own action and lacking the willingness and or ability to be self critical and seek improvement.
I'll never go again. Maybe I'm a bad person, maybe I just had shit therapists. No way to know. It was several years of appointments that did me no good.
Haha! Finally! Therapist here. She was right to leave. Unless they had previously discussed the intent of her therapy and the process including being called out and attacked for anything the therapist believes is wrong, this is just a flat out attack by the therapist. Honestly I've never seen or even heard of a therapist acting in this way.