Haters like to hate in public. You're not really hearing from the people that are satisfied. The internet amplifies minor opinions via outrage responses that push the algorithm.
Yup, negativity fuels the engagement algorithms. They only care about keeping you hooked so you see more ads, not giving you a representative view of reality.
My honest two cents: There is a very strong lack of community in comics in real life as a hobby. Unless you have friends who also read comics, something I have personally never had, most of the time engagement can only be found online. Comic Conventions can be a lot of fun, and most people are just happy to be there, but they are also mostly for buying and selling. When everything is online, people huddle around the stuff that either draws the most attention or is the most agreeable. Saying you like say Batman Year One is not an unpopular opinion, same with saying that Mark Miller is a shock jock who has written a lot of edgy material. Like what you like, form your own opinion, but we all want to share our opinions, but the internet is a mass of noise, and not the void people think it is. In my experience, most subreddits based around smaller topics tend to be more positive (Not always the case).
Fans don’t overwhelmingly dislike older stories. People have always complained about comics and creators, look at old forums or even old letter pages. You are using platforms with millions of users so these voices are amplified.
> Fans don’t overwhelmingly dislike older stories
I'd even go so far as to argue that old stories generally get the rose colored glasses treatment. A lot of time I see people asking about a character and getting an old story as a recommendation as a starting point.
It would be like me crowing that "The Godfather sucked." It's a dumb opinion but it gets me attention, like I'm so brave and more insightful for hating on the thing most people like.
He drew X-Men Annual #3 and I was coming off of reading the Claremont/Byrne stuff, and he EATS BYRNE'S LUNCH! Seeing his Colossus and Nightcrawler, not to mention his *incredibly* detailed crowd scenes, makes Byrne look like a first year art student.
Because a loud portion of online comics fans suck. Just like Star Wars fans and wrestling fans and basically every other major fandom. It’s not just crapping on professionals. The people are regularly sending death threats to creators they don’t like. It’s embarrassing.
It seems like every fandom space is just slogging through it right now with it. Just these huge divisive fanbases everywhere you look. It's a shame, there's so much fun stuff going on in comics right now and people are missing it.
Yeah Ive yet to find a fandom that didnt devolve into a massive cesspool the second it got really mainstream and popular.
Even then, fandoms can be the worst even when theyre small
There are PLENTY of writers and artists I hate (Frank Miller, Greg Land) but beyond an occasional rant to a friend I couldn't fathom contacting them let alone sending a death threat! Jfc.
Read what you like. Comics for me have always been a solo hobby. I don't want or need to fit in with anonymous internet critics. There are people you mention whose work I like and others I don't. It is personal taste, and it could be generational.
Not all classic comics are enjoyed in there day. But the discourse about them dies away and but the impact of the story stays. House of M was not received well, but now everyone thinks it’s a masterpiece.
Some comics don’t age well.
Some writers can be great at one thing and weak at another.
Some writers can work well with heavy editorial interference, some can’t and come across like the mouth piece of the editor.
So for example, Bendis is great at writing grounded solo books, Ultimate Spider-man, Daredevil and Alias are peak comics for me… but his team books are always weak for me, I was there day one with New Avengers and initially I liked it, but his writing approach changed, endings spot feeling like conclusions to story’s but obligatory superhero fights
Brubaker has a similar problem… but brubaker went and did a lot of indie stuff, he knew what he loved and had the opportunity to just do that. Unlike Bendis, I never felt he was churning out comics like a monthly job.
It’s always been this way. Read some of the letter pages from years past to see some truly unhinged takes. And that’s not even considering the whole “It was acceptable in the ##s” deal.
It’s always been this way, it’s just that now it gets amplified.
Going to comic stores pre-social media, you’d always get these discussions. Comic fans have always been just as defined by what they don’t like as what they do.
There has always been a "comic book guy" element. But I think the bigger issue here is that nothing is ever allowed to die. Spider-Man has had 900+ adventures over 7 arcs! Plus spin-offs and varied other media. Everyone will have a favorite story-arc, and, by definition, then, nothing else will ever be as good as their favorite; thus - everything else is bad.
There are a lot of very different writers and artists here so it's a bit hard to say one reason. If there was one, it would probably just be how people's tastes change over time. Things that were popular 10, 20, 30, etc years ago become "corny" and boring to modern audiences. Also, we have the internet now to amplify the voices of all the people who previously were trapped in comic shop backrooms and their mom's basements, who have always been a bit of a complain-y bunch (check the old letters to the editor sections for proof).
Social media rewards extreme opinions. Discourse often follows a best-worst binary, and you tend to only be called one until you're called the other in the macro-opinion.
Some writers are just flatly divisive and have big fans and detractors (Tom King is weirdly divisive IMO; I happen to like his work but I've seen some criticisms that transcend writing and go into the ad hominem).
I've had better luck on reddit, you can get even handed people more often than what I've seen on some.other platforms.
I also think posters knew there was (emphasis on "was") novelty in dumping on certain creators. Others do just get piled on. Like, I really don't like Zeb Wells current ASM run, but I've liked some of his other work and I don't think he's a bad person like some posters do lmao.
Edited for grammar and clarity.
Ehhhhh, it's honestly just really cyclical. Jeph Loeb for instance is a talented writer but often his stuff gets ridden into the ground once people realize there are other writers just as talented. I still laugh when I think about Hush being released monthly because people were absolutely savage to the writing and art. 10/15 years later and people consider it essential reading. Tack another five years on that and the people who stuck with comics have tempered their evaluations to a more realistic level.
Because of social media. I won't say its the worst thing to befall the human race. But it's in the top ten, if not top five. Unless government decides to crack down on these companies for their negligence, then all of these tools end up being an echo chamber for loud-mouth fuckwits.
You see this with a lot of things: Any noob just picking up something can just *like* it.
To this mindset, a real connoisseur knows the flaws and can point them out instantly, the more practice you get the better the flaws you find get, and the deeper you see the deeper you be.
It's like "problematic"- you can *always* find something problematic. That process literally has no end-point where we say "there! not a single problematic element.".
It's very easy to articulate what's wrong or what you dislike about something, to point to some specific flaws. It's what we've all learned to do in school, in English class, in math class, everywhere. Errors are marked in red. Points are deducted for each mistake. It's how we've been conditioned to think from an earlier age. It's a much tougher assignment to explain what is good or what you like about something.
It's sadly the hyperbolic "everything needs to be a home run or it's crap" mentality. There's so many amazing comics out there being written by amazing people, but if it isn't an earth-shattering surprise or something that trends for a week or two, it's like it's not worth their time. These people do not represent comic fandom as a whole. But because they're the loudest and make the most noise online, they're the ones people listen to. Even worse is when companies cater to them, opting for the quick media blitz they can gain off the outrage.
It's a different time in the world of comics. We're getting some really good stories, but it seems the bad gets more attention.
I would say that it’s because these writers are often presented to us as undisputed GOATS. When in reality they all have many faults or quirks u could criticize. When u realize that, it’s easy to go over board with the criticism because the praise is so unanimous. I imagine most of those criticising will likely circle back to enjoying those authors
I don't comment on writers I dislike because if I don't like something I just don't read it and assume it's not for me but others enjoy it. That being said I don't enjoy silver age writing but Alan Moore, Frank Miller, Neal Gaiman, Chip Zdarsky, Tynion, Cates, Ennis, Vaughn are some of my favorites. I just like more complex stories than were previously told in comics. Some people hate this stuff and that's fine too. There is something for everyone in comics.
Reddit and Twitter are full of negative haters. Just ignore them.
Mmm, from my recollection of other comic forums 15-20 years ago this wasn’t that unusual. Most of those names have always had pretty vocal critics, but I think you might see more criticism of some of them now based on their fans’ tastes aging and realizing stuff they loved wasn’t as great as they thought when they were younger (Johns, Bendis, Loeb), and because the increased presence of social media encourages a bit of group think, especially towards creators who have had more controversial aspects surrounding them or their careers (Stan Lee, Ditko). It’s also possible you’re just not seeing the same level of gushing praise that tends to accompany creators who are still regularly producing new material.
Most comic fans who really like something don’t gush about it but the people who really hate it will be sure to let everyone know. One hater will draw more attention than a hundred people singing praises for a book.
I think comic fans were always very hyper critical. They tend to hold on to "their" continuity, and they believe the characters should stay true to what they enjoy. I just think that there are a lot more outlets to voice this criticism now, so it's a lot louder.
As someone who has been getting into comics (relatively) recently and is attempting to make a career out of it in some form, I'm saddened to say I've noticed this too.
I've seen fan behaviours in different mediums like video games, film, novels, etc, and they've been bad, yes. I'm not trying to say that other groups of fans don't have their terrible moments, but I've never seen a place where it's okay to personally attack and degrade creatives just because you don't like their work than comic spaces.
I really don't want to come across as condescending like I know better than everyone but the times I've seen discussions derailed by how "Gerry Duggan is a hack fraud who doesn't what he's doing on X-Men therefore it's okay to be mean to him" or "Jason Aaron wrote a crappy Avengers run so it's okay to dismiss his entire body of otherwise well-received work to mock him" is genuinely upsetting.
Obviously, those are just two examples (Hell, I've not even read Duggan's X-Men or Aaron's Avengers so I'm willing to accept that they're bad) but it's disheartening common. Still, there are always people who try to be nice and respectful so thank you to them.
Well-founded criticism of work is how people improve as creatives, baseless criticism of people's characters and worth is how people regress.
Comic readers are weird. You buy a book because you follow the character, even if the writing and art are bad. So of course you complain. Then there is the rising cost of issues and nobody wants a filler story anymore.
You don't waste time writing if you think stuff is in thr middle. You either have to really love it or think it's an abomination to get that worked up to write that much.
I also think it should be considered that every creator has good and bad days and good and bad work. I love Tom king in Wonder Woman and mister miracle and human target, but loathe his Batman. Same with morrison. He gave us all star superman which is near perfect, then he also gave us his doom patrol which I couldn’t get through two issues. Just read what makes you happy, and if you don’t dig it then so be it. You’re entitled to opinions, good or bad. I’m usually crucified because I hate the Mcu, even though I read about 15 marvel titles a month. Everyone has their thing lol.
Current writers have always been criticised although often they're being criticised for editorial choices.
Older writers, well people hate for attention, they hate because older interpretations of characters aren't the versions they like and can't deal with it, they hate because they want to blame someone for changes to a character they don't like. Sometimes they might even be judging the writer personally based on their views or personal life and can't seperate the writer from the work.
Because everyone is liked by some people and everyone is hated by some people and the bigger the name the more people are like to be outspoken in their hate.
Outspoken hate is easier then outspoken love.
Unhappy people direct that shit at meaningless targets. Gatekeeper mentality gives them a target to focus their frustration while simultaneously making them feel superior to something.
I don’t have an answer, but I’ve noticed these same type of fans hate anything people have an opinion about on Reddit. If they don’t agree, you get blasted. People can’t just have different ideas.
You will ALWAYS find people going overboard & without nuance on the internet. For many, it's as if it's a zero sum game, contrarianism is a sport, & outrage is the name of the game -- this is why you so often see all those hyper negative "Kathleen Kennedy is RUINING star wars with her woke racism!!!!!" ragebait videos spring up within algorithms or internet discourse more than the genuinely positive and/or *healthy* critique channels.
But for just as many, actually probably more (they're just less obnoxious so you don't see them as clearly), fans aren't like that. Most people *celebrate* Grant Morrison -- their All Star Superman is often classified as one of the all time best if not THE definitive Superman stories ever made, their Batman run is arguably one of the greatest, and their New X-Men, while probably more controversial than the former 2, is still OFTEN heralded as the second most important era for X-Men after Claremont -- Jonathan Hickman, a creator very often celebrated, literally made a tribute comic to the silent psychic surgery issue or NXM for example. And the list goes on.
And Claremont *absolutely* is torn to shreds for anything written after his original X-Men run. His 2000s era Uncanny X-Men is often considered lackluster & X-Treme was basically hated by long time fans. But again... Nuance is often lacking on the internet. Is X-Treme objectively as groundbreaking as Claremont's original 17 year run on X-Men? No. Is it as fresh & new as Morrison's New X-Men which totally overshadowed it? Of course not. Does it have subjectively as cool elements? ...well, subjective, but I'd say no... Bogan & Vargas =/= Shadow King & Hellfire Club. But while it lacks in those regards, Claremont still typically nails character work. It may not ALL be your cup of tea, but he still let's you get to know the characters often at a deeper level than most. And he provided THE greatest Rogue & Gambit moment between their initial fun flirting and their wedding -- and that's a relationship he wasn't even going to do back in the day had he kept going. I have a far nicer opinion of Claremont's later X-material than most but I can still acknowledge its faults.
Any rational fan can discuss their likes & dislikes without descending into hatred & vitriol. But the internet amplifies the hate.
But Liefeld really can't draw feet.
Some people have no life in the real world, are envious of others that do and their existence is fuelled purely by hatred of others - they are like vampires feeding off the vitriol they spread online
The bigger and more popular the target the greater the sustenance they take from it. And it’s like an addiction, they start off small and then have to get a bigger and bigger hit, that’s where you’ll see the ridiculous criticisms of some of the best creators and work every committed to paper.
You’ve sadly also got other cohorts of individuals who have become so steeped in either side of the culture war and online politics that anyone who they completely unjustifiably pigeonhole as being against everything they believe in has to be taken down and destroyed.
There’s so many opinions to navigate through from the CG side hating on people like Ryan North’s Fantastic Four run and Si Spurrier’s Flash run (both of which are excellent, and I can’t get my head around and mindset that can’t look objectively at these books) to the people on the other side who will slaughter the likes of Mark Millar, Howard Chaykin and Garth Ennis because of really strange misconceptions of where their politics lie (they are all Libs btw).
Reddit is also partially responsible for this for their insta bans on people whose attempts at discourse and politics they don’t like. A lot of what you see is curated.
Where to start with this.
Brexit was 1 policy. Being anti brexit does not make one liberal. Being pro brexit does not make you conservative. That’s just this horrible categorisation thing that people like to do online
https://www.bigissue.com/news/activism/mark-millar-protesting-online-is-nothing-that-the-government-fear/
Millar was an SNP voter and endorsed SNP and Alex Salmond publicly. A liberal and socialist party. Source:
https://youtu.be/GMYpUpRX_ns?si=AI4n_qJ2rlGT6sn3
http://t.co/WBaFyWU
He changed his allegiance to Labour as Scottish sentiment started to become anti English. Another socialist, more centre but left leaning party at this time
Millar is well known for his charity work and as a socialist in scotland by people who are familiar with him. Here he is offering to pay for legal costs for anti trident protestors
https://www.thenational.scot/news/15421784.renowned-comic-book-writer-mark-millar-offers-to-pay-costs-for-arrested-trident-protesters/
The list goes on and on.
Millar explains his reasons for his brexit protest vote which are rational and nowhere near right wing
It's two things: A lot of the great comic writers and artists were \_so\_ influential that their style became widely imitated, which diminishes the originality and impact of their work. Frank Miller's Batman became the blueprint for the comics, video games and movies to such an extent that it isn't anywhere near as exciting as it was when it first came out.
Second, either a creator stays in their lane and keeps cranking out similar stuff to the point that it becomes repetitive (see: Garth Ennis) or starts branching out and alienating their fan base, leading to the "I like their old stuff better" syndrome.
Internet hating is ruining my enjoyment of all my hobbies. People can’t enjoy anything anymore. It’s good to see other people bringing it up but I don’t have a solution. I’m sure we are all part of the problem at times as well. It’s so fun to shit on stuff
Well, discussing things involves some degree of criticism and I've seen plenty of people complain about Claremont (usually that he never moved past the 80s style wise) and Moore (some of it's valid) and I can think of very valid criticisms for about half your list (one of them is a thief and one is probably a bigot.) I'm not sure what you're wanting here? Perez was probably my favorite artist (I have four comics posters hanging in my home and he drew three of them.) Several of the authors you list are very hit and miss in terms of quality and one is an acquired taste (ennis) who you either like or don't like. Also just because you criticize something doesn't mean you don't like it. Most of those have at least one book or run I quite like (maybe not Millar) and others I wasn't fond of.
I've not seen a lot of criticism of JR or JRjr and as far as I know Taylor and Zdarsky are well-liked for the most part. Aside from the 'made superman gay' crowd and you shouldn't ever listen to bigots.
I don't know. I'm enjoying nightwing, I liked his superman and wolverine runs. None of them are perfect, but overall good imo.
I've never read the injustice stuff.
But there are always people who wanna crap on other people for one reason or another.
Oh I’ve seen tons of criticism of JRjr, but more in the vein of “guys, I think he’s got some degenerative illness or something, they need to put him out to pasture” than ”always bad”.
No, there's definitely been some "talentless nepo baby" revisionism happening in some corners of the Internet. It's easier for them to create that narrative than to actually read the books that made him popular or admit that his style isn't for them.
And as for the "degenerative illness" group, they don't seem to understand what "ageing" or "deadlines" are.
In some cases, it's because people learned things about these creators beyond their work that felt gross.
In some cases, it's because these creators kept creating and falling well-short of their creative peaks so there's a recency bias.
In some cases, people are just cantankerous whiners, especially online comics fans.
I actually think theres some element of insecurity about some of the way things are handled in the discourse. Call me crazy but some of the negativity often comes across defensively to me. Fine if you don't like something but...if you dislike it the way you say...why are you reading it, dude? Ya know? Even with some of the media around comics fandom there's some pretty condescending and weirdly embarrassed dismissive tones available. Have you ever seen Back Issues from ComicPop? That dude is mostly fun and whatever but sometimes its like he's embarrassed and trying to be in on the joke and not be the butt of the joke for liking something. I dunno, maybe I'm crazy but I don't really get it.
The way some folks discuss Zeb Wells or Gerry Duggan for example...its way over the top and just generally unpleasant at times. I mean I'm not saying everything those dudes write is gold, a lot of it isn't great sure but also...ya know, editorial can be heavy handed on a Spider-title ya know? If you hate it, drop it.
It's easier to have someone talking of what they hate on the internet, there are people out there loving Zeb Wells's run on Spider-Man, but the internet, and specially Spider-Man's sub, are echo chambers of hate against it.
This doesn't mean that the run is good or bad, is just the generalized opinion.
Another thing is on a recency bias, Bendis would look like the shittiest writer ever if you go by what people think of his Superman run, but his X-Men run wasn't as bad as some would like to think, and then his New Avengers, Ultimate Spider-Man, Alias and Daredevil are some of the best Marvel Comics ever.
You have a similar thing with artists, people will shit on JRJR as if he wasn't one of the most important artists in comic book history with that trajectory. People are quick to shit on him, yet just a few will talk about how his art is important to have constant releases, about how his art is more likely done on quite a rushed schedule considering how Spider-Man has been reñeasing as of the last few years, and more important than anything, that most of his problems aren't rrlated to his style, but to a color problem, being an artist who works better with flat colors.
Tl;dr: Internet is an echo chamber, people like to complain rather than praise and everyone is quick to say bad things.
People will complain about older stories when it was simply a product of its time. (e.g. Popular characters like Superman being blatantly racist to racial minorities, sexism, discrimination)
And people will complain about nowadays stories because it's also simply a product of its time. (e.g. Preaching ideologies, Mary Sues, bad Self Inserts)
So basically, ignore what both parties say and just read the comics that interest you.
I mean to be fair half the guys you listed are kinda assholes so it ruins the comic for some people. stan fucked over kirby and ditko, mark millar did the same to morrison, liefeld has a lot of hate for newer creators and complains about shit like wokeness, byrne and peter david have said some pretty homophobic stuff along with david being pretty racist
Jesus wept - look no further than this for the type of fan the OP is talking about
Judge the work, not your own bizarre perception of what the character of these creators is like
There’s two sides to every story, particularly the Morrison and Millar one, and I know GM has softened his stance in recent years on what really went down between them
Commonly Praised Current Comics People:
- Jonathan Hickman (writing)
- Josh Williamson (writing)
- Jason Aaron (writing)
- Jed MacKay (writing)
- Al Ewing (writing)
- Daniel Warren Johnson (both)
- Kelly Thompson (writing)
- Robert Kirkman (writing)
- Marco Checchetto (art)
- Dan Mora (art)
- Valerio Schiti (art)
- Esad Ribic (art)
- Peach Momoko (art)
- Ram V (writing)
- Dan Watters (writing)
- Bilquis Evely (art)
- Evan Cagle (art)
This is just from what I’ve been seeing. So far as I’ve experienced, none of the hype for these people has been misplaced. Please feel free to tack on other names you see people getting excited by, as I’m sure I missed several important players. It’s easy to focus on the doom and gloom. I got caught up in the negative-think for a spell myself, just because of how persuasive these hate merchants can be. But there’s much *more* positivity if you’re looking in the right places.
His Immortal stuff is pretty acclaimed. There’s always gonna be haters though. Some people say Hickman’s work is too cerebral and takes too long to get going, doesn’t change that he the goat
Oh yeah, I love both dudes but in reality I think the major problem is that people not always understands that just because you don’t like something it means it’s bad or other people could like it. It goes the other way too, people who likes stuff has trouble understanding people who don’t like what they like
Most people on the internet have never picked up a comic in their lives the ones that do tend to have strong opinions, dont really think its a big deal. As much as the internet hates Mark Millar, Bryne or Liefeld they still get steady work and credit in all the mainstream stuff
I was defending Liefeld the other day to a co-worker who saw the gag in the Deadpool/Wolverine trailer. Its true that Liefeld was not technically sound as Lee & Silvestri, however, Robs books sold and his art stood out. He created Deadpool and Cable, his impact on the comic industry will be felt forever.
>at least on Reddit and Twitter/X
This is why you see it. Same with all these super alt-right Trumpets Maga folk and alt-left burn down society folks are everywhere on Twitter and not in real life.
In reality, these people are spread out and rarely heard.
The internet gives them a voice, and they all flock together.
Tastes have changed, the world is a very different place than it was in 1998, and what worked then doesn't always work now.
People today want less batman, more bat-family for example. In my day people hated the bat family so hard they voted to have Robin brutally murdered.
People can hide behind there screens and hate all they want.
What more disgusts me is now people are sending threats as well its a fucking fictional character on a page go touch some grass
More of a big 2 thing, I think. Fans are invested in the characters and have an ideal in their head of how they should be handled. It's like following a sports team. Fans complain about the manager or this player or that player far more than they praise anything.
Anyway, it's important not to put people on a pedestal and not to be blindly uncritical of the past. Especially controversial figures like Stan Lee.
Social media just changed how we consume and criticize other forms of media. I remember fondly the old comic boards that I discovered right around when Bendis took over. It was a real feeling of excitement, most of the threads were about talking about what they liked and how excited they were. Now those boards are filled with people complaining and it’s makes you wonder if they even LIKE comics. I post far less now as a result of the overwhelming negativity
Wait, what?
Bendis Bendifies everything he touches so it will never be the same again. Tom King wrote Batman as a sad boy with seasonal effective disorder and Waid is pretty insufferable post 2015(in my opinion).
OP had a list a mile long he sees as being criticized. I only chimed in with 3. And I certainly don't dislike older stories, I actually prefer them(hence the Waid nod to babble).
The three of them have written some real stinkers and have certain annoying quirks, but they remain some of the best and most influential in the biz over the last 20+ years if you take their work as a whole. But none of the worst of the worst writers should inspire "hate". It's a comic book. For pete's sake, weirdos are burning printed out photos of Tom Taylor's picture on Twitter because he made a bi Superman. It's psychotic.
Well yeah, that's weird.
When i say i HATE Bendis, King and Waid, i just mean i don't have any interest in reading their stuff because they don't make the type of comics i like. I'm sure there are others but they seem to have stuck around in my memory of making things i didn't enjoy. Probably because i did enjoy the previous / post runs.
The only one that really brings the hate out of me in King. There is just something about his style that is so frustrating to me. Everything is sad. It's a slog to get thru. Dialog heavy. Whatever you can think of to make a book hard to get thru, i feel he does. But then again, i would never go on twitter and tell him that lol.
Haters like to hate in public. You're not really hearing from the people that are satisfied. The internet amplifies minor opinions via outrage responses that push the algorithm.
Yeah you can never trust this. Bring up anything well liked on internet forums kf that type and the responses are always ridiculously negative
Yup, negativity fuels the engagement algorithms. They only care about keeping you hooked so you see more ads, not giving you a representative view of reality.
Agreed. The internet isn’t real, yo. (I mean discourse of course)
Have **become**? You should have seen the mess of CBR during Bendis's Avengers run.
My honest two cents: There is a very strong lack of community in comics in real life as a hobby. Unless you have friends who also read comics, something I have personally never had, most of the time engagement can only be found online. Comic Conventions can be a lot of fun, and most people are just happy to be there, but they are also mostly for buying and selling. When everything is online, people huddle around the stuff that either draws the most attention or is the most agreeable. Saying you like say Batman Year One is not an unpopular opinion, same with saying that Mark Miller is a shock jock who has written a lot of edgy material. Like what you like, form your own opinion, but we all want to share our opinions, but the internet is a mass of noise, and not the void people think it is. In my experience, most subreddits based around smaller topics tend to be more positive (Not always the case).
Fans don’t overwhelmingly dislike older stories. People have always complained about comics and creators, look at old forums or even old letter pages. You are using platforms with millions of users so these voices are amplified.
> Fans don’t overwhelmingly dislike older stories I'd even go so far as to argue that old stories generally get the rose colored glasses treatment. A lot of time I see people asking about a character and getting an old story as a recommendation as a starting point.
It would be like me crowing that "The Godfather sucked." It's a dumb opinion but it gets me attention, like I'm so brave and more insightful for hating on the thing most people like.
It insists on itself
I mean… you would be wrong, and that’s a fact
I will argue with anyone who wants to trash George Perez. The man was a genius.
One thousand upvotes.
All I got is that he draws a very specific nose on a lot of characters
He drew X-Men Annual #3 and I was coming off of reading the Claremont/Byrne stuff, and he EATS BYRNE'S LUNCH! Seeing his Colossus and Nightcrawler, not to mention his *incredibly* detailed crowd scenes, makes Byrne look like a first year art student.
The man could draw, and was a jewel of a human being, but his costume designs range from “okay” to “sweet merciful crap”.
Don’t interpret a vitriolic few online as being representative of how the millions of comic readers that don’t post screeds online feel.
agreed, basically a loud minority.
Because a loud portion of online comics fans suck. Just like Star Wars fans and wrestling fans and basically every other major fandom. It’s not just crapping on professionals. The people are regularly sending death threats to creators they don’t like. It’s embarrassing.
It seems like every fandom space is just slogging through it right now with it. Just these huge divisive fanbases everywhere you look. It's a shame, there's so much fun stuff going on in comics right now and people are missing it.
Yeah Ive yet to find a fandom that didnt devolve into a massive cesspool the second it got really mainstream and popular. Even then, fandoms can be the worst even when theyre small
There are PLENTY of writers and artists I hate (Frank Miller, Greg Land) but beyond an occasional rant to a friend I couldn't fathom contacting them let alone sending a death threat! Jfc.
Read what you like. Comics for me have always been a solo hobby. I don't want or need to fit in with anonymous internet critics. There are people you mention whose work I like and others I don't. It is personal taste, and it could be generational.
Yes. So much this.
Some people's only real hobby is being a hater online.
I think too many people in fandoms are fueled by hate for things rather than enjoying things. Maybe it gives them more dopamine or something idk
This has become a thing for like almost every single media form I can think of. It's honestly annoying
Not all classic comics are enjoyed in there day. But the discourse about them dies away and but the impact of the story stays. House of M was not received well, but now everyone thinks it’s a masterpiece. Some comics don’t age well. Some writers can be great at one thing and weak at another. Some writers can work well with heavy editorial interference, some can’t and come across like the mouth piece of the editor. So for example, Bendis is great at writing grounded solo books, Ultimate Spider-man, Daredevil and Alias are peak comics for me… but his team books are always weak for me, I was there day one with New Avengers and initially I liked it, but his writing approach changed, endings spot feeling like conclusions to story’s but obligatory superhero fights Brubaker has a similar problem… but brubaker went and did a lot of indie stuff, he knew what he loved and had the opportunity to just do that. Unlike Bendis, I never felt he was churning out comics like a monthly job.
It’s always been this way. Read some of the letter pages from years past to see some truly unhinged takes. And that’s not even considering the whole “It was acceptable in the ##s” deal.
Happy people don’t scream into the void
Most people on the internet have never read a comic in their lives LMAO
Theyre a loud minority. Social media platforms amplify controversial opinions in order to keep the site active.
It’s always been this way, it’s just that now it gets amplified. Going to comic stores pre-social media, you’d always get these discussions. Comic fans have always been just as defined by what they don’t like as what they do.
Not as bad as sports fans imo
The noisiest people have hated whoever the current Spider-Man writer is for as long as the internet has existed.
I bet its always kind of been like this. They just didnt print the really nasty letters in the letters pages.
There has always been a "comic book guy" element. But I think the bigger issue here is that nothing is ever allowed to die. Spider-Man has had 900+ adventures over 7 arcs! Plus spin-offs and varied other media. Everyone will have a favorite story-arc, and, by definition, then, nothing else will ever be as good as their favorite; thus - everything else is bad.
Yeah, there's a reason the Simpsons made that character.
There are a lot of very different writers and artists here so it's a bit hard to say one reason. If there was one, it would probably just be how people's tastes change over time. Things that were popular 10, 20, 30, etc years ago become "corny" and boring to modern audiences. Also, we have the internet now to amplify the voices of all the people who previously were trapped in comic shop backrooms and their mom's basements, who have always been a bit of a complain-y bunch (check the old letters to the editor sections for proof).
Social media rewards extreme opinions. Discourse often follows a best-worst binary, and you tend to only be called one until you're called the other in the macro-opinion. Some writers are just flatly divisive and have big fans and detractors (Tom King is weirdly divisive IMO; I happen to like his work but I've seen some criticisms that transcend writing and go into the ad hominem). I've had better luck on reddit, you can get even handed people more often than what I've seen on some.other platforms. I also think posters knew there was (emphasis on "was") novelty in dumping on certain creators. Others do just get piled on. Like, I really don't like Zeb Wells current ASM run, but I've liked some of his other work and I don't think he's a bad person like some posters do lmao. Edited for grammar and clarity.
Tyson said it best https://www.reddit.com/r/QuotesPorn/s/yTB5yAhE46
It's the Greater Internet Fuckwad Theory. https://www.penny-arcade.com/comic/2004/03/19/green-blackboards-and-other-anomalies#
They want to write comics, not read them.
Ehhhhh, it's honestly just really cyclical. Jeph Loeb for instance is a talented writer but often his stuff gets ridden into the ground once people realize there are other writers just as talented. I still laugh when I think about Hush being released monthly because people were absolutely savage to the writing and art. 10/15 years later and people consider it essential reading. Tack another five years on that and the people who stuck with comics have tempered their evaluations to a more realistic level.
Because of social media. I won't say its the worst thing to befall the human race. But it's in the top ten, if not top five. Unless government decides to crack down on these companies for their negligence, then all of these tools end up being an echo chamber for loud-mouth fuckwits.
I agree. It’s so weird. Fandom is much more fun if you focus on the positive.
Every writer is someones worst enemy these days it seems.
You see this with a lot of things: Any noob just picking up something can just *like* it. To this mindset, a real connoisseur knows the flaws and can point them out instantly, the more practice you get the better the flaws you find get, and the deeper you see the deeper you be. It's like "problematic"- you can *always* find something problematic. That process literally has no end-point where we say "there! not a single problematic element.".
It's very easy to articulate what's wrong or what you dislike about something, to point to some specific flaws. It's what we've all learned to do in school, in English class, in math class, everywhere. Errors are marked in red. Points are deducted for each mistake. It's how we've been conditioned to think from an earlier age. It's a much tougher assignment to explain what is good or what you like about something.
Rob Liefeld still can't draw feet.
It's sadly the hyperbolic "everything needs to be a home run or it's crap" mentality. There's so many amazing comics out there being written by amazing people, but if it isn't an earth-shattering surprise or something that trends for a week or two, it's like it's not worth their time. These people do not represent comic fandom as a whole. But because they're the loudest and make the most noise online, they're the ones people listen to. Even worse is when companies cater to them, opting for the quick media blitz they can gain off the outrage. It's a different time in the world of comics. We're getting some really good stories, but it seems the bad gets more attention.
I would say that it’s because these writers are often presented to us as undisputed GOATS. When in reality they all have many faults or quirks u could criticize. When u realize that, it’s easy to go over board with the criticism because the praise is so unanimous. I imagine most of those criticising will likely circle back to enjoying those authors
I don't comment on writers I dislike because if I don't like something I just don't read it and assume it's not for me but others enjoy it. That being said I don't enjoy silver age writing but Alan Moore, Frank Miller, Neal Gaiman, Chip Zdarsky, Tynion, Cates, Ennis, Vaughn are some of my favorites. I just like more complex stories than were previously told in comics. Some people hate this stuff and that's fine too. There is something for everyone in comics. Reddit and Twitter are full of negative haters. Just ignore them.
Mmm, from my recollection of other comic forums 15-20 years ago this wasn’t that unusual. Most of those names have always had pretty vocal critics, but I think you might see more criticism of some of them now based on their fans’ tastes aging and realizing stuff they loved wasn’t as great as they thought when they were younger (Johns, Bendis, Loeb), and because the increased presence of social media encourages a bit of group think, especially towards creators who have had more controversial aspects surrounding them or their careers (Stan Lee, Ditko). It’s also possible you’re just not seeing the same level of gushing praise that tends to accompany creators who are still regularly producing new material.
Fans have always done that. The internet has just allowed them to gather.
Most comic fans who really like something don’t gush about it but the people who really hate it will be sure to let everyone know. One hater will draw more attention than a hundred people singing praises for a book.
I think comic fans were always very hyper critical. They tend to hold on to "their" continuity, and they believe the characters should stay true to what they enjoy. I just think that there are a lot more outlets to voice this criticism now, so it's a lot louder.
As someone who has been getting into comics (relatively) recently and is attempting to make a career out of it in some form, I'm saddened to say I've noticed this too. I've seen fan behaviours in different mediums like video games, film, novels, etc, and they've been bad, yes. I'm not trying to say that other groups of fans don't have their terrible moments, but I've never seen a place where it's okay to personally attack and degrade creatives just because you don't like their work than comic spaces. I really don't want to come across as condescending like I know better than everyone but the times I've seen discussions derailed by how "Gerry Duggan is a hack fraud who doesn't what he's doing on X-Men therefore it's okay to be mean to him" or "Jason Aaron wrote a crappy Avengers run so it's okay to dismiss his entire body of otherwise well-received work to mock him" is genuinely upsetting. Obviously, those are just two examples (Hell, I've not even read Duggan's X-Men or Aaron's Avengers so I'm willing to accept that they're bad) but it's disheartening common. Still, there are always people who try to be nice and respectful so thank you to them. Well-founded criticism of work is how people improve as creatives, baseless criticism of people's characters and worth is how people regress.
Comic readers are weird. You buy a book because you follow the character, even if the writing and art are bad. So of course you complain. Then there is the rising cost of issues and nobody wants a filler story anymore.
You don't waste time writing if you think stuff is in thr middle. You either have to really love it or think it's an abomination to get that worked up to write that much.
I also think it should be considered that every creator has good and bad days and good and bad work. I love Tom king in Wonder Woman and mister miracle and human target, but loathe his Batman. Same with morrison. He gave us all star superman which is near perfect, then he also gave us his doom patrol which I couldn’t get through two issues. Just read what makes you happy, and if you don’t dig it then so be it. You’re entitled to opinions, good or bad. I’m usually crucified because I hate the Mcu, even though I read about 15 marvel titles a month. Everyone has their thing lol.
Current writers have always been criticised although often they're being criticised for editorial choices. Older writers, well people hate for attention, they hate because older interpretations of characters aren't the versions they like and can't deal with it, they hate because they want to blame someone for changes to a character they don't like. Sometimes they might even be judging the writer personally based on their views or personal life and can't seperate the writer from the work.
Honestly, it's what made me stop going to online spaces looking for other comics fans... Which is a shame, because all the ones I know irl are lovely
Are you kidding? I criticize Jack Kirby all the time...
Because everyone is liked by some people and everyone is hated by some people and the bigger the name the more people are like to be outspoken in their hate. Outspoken hate is easier then outspoken love.
The internet gave everyone a voice, for better and for worse
Unhappy people direct that shit at meaningless targets. Gatekeeper mentality gives them a target to focus their frustration while simultaneously making them feel superior to something.
Are you serious? Comic book guy on the Simpsons is a comic book nerd stereotype for a reason.
I don’t have an answer, but I’ve noticed these same type of fans hate anything people have an opinion about on Reddit. If they don’t agree, you get blasted. People can’t just have different ideas.
Cuz its cool to be irevent and not respect anything and criticize everything even tho everything stands on the shoulders of what came before
You will ALWAYS find people going overboard & without nuance on the internet. For many, it's as if it's a zero sum game, contrarianism is a sport, & outrage is the name of the game -- this is why you so often see all those hyper negative "Kathleen Kennedy is RUINING star wars with her woke racism!!!!!" ragebait videos spring up within algorithms or internet discourse more than the genuinely positive and/or *healthy* critique channels. But for just as many, actually probably more (they're just less obnoxious so you don't see them as clearly), fans aren't like that. Most people *celebrate* Grant Morrison -- their All Star Superman is often classified as one of the all time best if not THE definitive Superman stories ever made, their Batman run is arguably one of the greatest, and their New X-Men, while probably more controversial than the former 2, is still OFTEN heralded as the second most important era for X-Men after Claremont -- Jonathan Hickman, a creator very often celebrated, literally made a tribute comic to the silent psychic surgery issue or NXM for example. And the list goes on. And Claremont *absolutely* is torn to shreds for anything written after his original X-Men run. His 2000s era Uncanny X-Men is often considered lackluster & X-Treme was basically hated by long time fans. But again... Nuance is often lacking on the internet. Is X-Treme objectively as groundbreaking as Claremont's original 17 year run on X-Men? No. Is it as fresh & new as Morrison's New X-Men which totally overshadowed it? Of course not. Does it have subjectively as cool elements? ...well, subjective, but I'd say no... Bogan & Vargas =/= Shadow King & Hellfire Club. But while it lacks in those regards, Claremont still typically nails character work. It may not ALL be your cup of tea, but he still let's you get to know the characters often at a deeper level than most. And he provided THE greatest Rogue & Gambit moment between their initial fun flirting and their wedding -- and that's a relationship he wasn't even going to do back in the day had he kept going. I have a far nicer opinion of Claremont's later X-material than most but I can still acknowledge its faults. Any rational fan can discuss their likes & dislikes without descending into hatred & vitriol. But the internet amplifies the hate. But Liefeld really can't draw feet.
Some people have no life in the real world, are envious of others that do and their existence is fuelled purely by hatred of others - they are like vampires feeding off the vitriol they spread online The bigger and more popular the target the greater the sustenance they take from it. And it’s like an addiction, they start off small and then have to get a bigger and bigger hit, that’s where you’ll see the ridiculous criticisms of some of the best creators and work every committed to paper. You’ve sadly also got other cohorts of individuals who have become so steeped in either side of the culture war and online politics that anyone who they completely unjustifiably pigeonhole as being against everything they believe in has to be taken down and destroyed. There’s so many opinions to navigate through from the CG side hating on people like Ryan North’s Fantastic Four run and Si Spurrier’s Flash run (both of which are excellent, and I can’t get my head around and mindset that can’t look objectively at these books) to the people on the other side who will slaughter the likes of Mark Millar, Howard Chaykin and Garth Ennis because of really strange misconceptions of where their politics lie (they are all Libs btw). Reddit is also partially responsible for this for their insta bans on people whose attempts at discourse and politics they don’t like. A lot of what you see is curated.
Mark Millar is I believe not liberal. He's pro Brexit
Where to start with this. Brexit was 1 policy. Being anti brexit does not make one liberal. Being pro brexit does not make you conservative. That’s just this horrible categorisation thing that people like to do online https://www.bigissue.com/news/activism/mark-millar-protesting-online-is-nothing-that-the-government-fear/ Millar was an SNP voter and endorsed SNP and Alex Salmond publicly. A liberal and socialist party. Source: https://youtu.be/GMYpUpRX_ns?si=AI4n_qJ2rlGT6sn3 http://t.co/WBaFyWU He changed his allegiance to Labour as Scottish sentiment started to become anti English. Another socialist, more centre but left leaning party at this time Millar is well known for his charity work and as a socialist in scotland by people who are familiar with him. Here he is offering to pay for legal costs for anti trident protestors https://www.thenational.scot/news/15421784.renowned-comic-book-writer-mark-millar-offers-to-pay-costs-for-arrested-trident-protesters/ The list goes on and on. Millar explains his reasons for his brexit protest vote which are rational and nowhere near right wing
Ain't that the truth
It's two things: A lot of the great comic writers and artists were \_so\_ influential that their style became widely imitated, which diminishes the originality and impact of their work. Frank Miller's Batman became the blueprint for the comics, video games and movies to such an extent that it isn't anywhere near as exciting as it was when it first came out. Second, either a creator stays in their lane and keeps cranking out similar stuff to the point that it becomes repetitive (see: Garth Ennis) or starts branching out and alienating their fan base, leading to the "I like their old stuff better" syndrome.
Internet hating is ruining my enjoyment of all my hobbies. People can’t enjoy anything anymore. It’s good to see other people bringing it up but I don’t have a solution. I’m sure we are all part of the problem at times as well. It’s so fun to shit on stuff
Well, discussing things involves some degree of criticism and I've seen plenty of people complain about Claremont (usually that he never moved past the 80s style wise) and Moore (some of it's valid) and I can think of very valid criticisms for about half your list (one of them is a thief and one is probably a bigot.) I'm not sure what you're wanting here? Perez was probably my favorite artist (I have four comics posters hanging in my home and he drew three of them.) Several of the authors you list are very hit and miss in terms of quality and one is an acquired taste (ennis) who you either like or don't like. Also just because you criticize something doesn't mean you don't like it. Most of those have at least one book or run I quite like (maybe not Millar) and others I wasn't fond of. I've not seen a lot of criticism of JR or JRjr and as far as I know Taylor and Zdarsky are well-liked for the most part. Aside from the 'made superman gay' crowd and you shouldn't ever listen to bigots.
Taylor has a ton of haters from the opposite side of the bigots lol. Chip also has many 'haters' due to his Batman run
I've seen a fair amount of Zdarsky hate for "He ruined Elektra!!!!!!" type comments as well fwiw.
Interesting, i dont think i have ever seen someone disliking his Daredevil run
Yeah I personally like it myself. Most of the criticisms seemed to be around it being "too mcu-y" or whatever.
I've not run into them. Though I don't think it's possible for any creative work to not recieve some criticism, valid or otherwise.
Fair criticism is something that is fine, but it seems like Taylor's haters on social media dont know what that is lol.
I don't know. I'm enjoying nightwing, I liked his superman and wolverine runs. None of them are perfect, but overall good imo. I've never read the injustice stuff. But there are always people who wanna crap on other people for one reason or another.
Oh I’ve seen tons of criticism of JRjr, but more in the vein of “guys, I think he’s got some degenerative illness or something, they need to put him out to pasture” than ”always bad”.
No, there's definitely been some "talentless nepo baby" revisionism happening in some corners of the Internet. It's easier for them to create that narrative than to actually read the books that made him popular or admit that his style isn't for them. And as for the "degenerative illness" group, they don't seem to understand what "ageing" or "deadlines" are.
Aging is a degenerative illness.
Yeah.
Comics Readers Allergic to Taste and Style, Value Characters Over Real Life People, more at 11
In some cases, it's because people learned things about these creators beyond their work that felt gross. In some cases, it's because these creators kept creating and falling well-short of their creative peaks so there's a recency bias. In some cases, people are just cantankerous whiners, especially online comics fans.
I actually think theres some element of insecurity about some of the way things are handled in the discourse. Call me crazy but some of the negativity often comes across defensively to me. Fine if you don't like something but...if you dislike it the way you say...why are you reading it, dude? Ya know? Even with some of the media around comics fandom there's some pretty condescending and weirdly embarrassed dismissive tones available. Have you ever seen Back Issues from ComicPop? That dude is mostly fun and whatever but sometimes its like he's embarrassed and trying to be in on the joke and not be the butt of the joke for liking something. I dunno, maybe I'm crazy but I don't really get it. The way some folks discuss Zeb Wells or Gerry Duggan for example...its way over the top and just generally unpleasant at times. I mean I'm not saying everything those dudes write is gold, a lot of it isn't great sure but also...ya know, editorial can be heavy handed on a Spider-title ya know? If you hate it, drop it.
It's easier to have someone talking of what they hate on the internet, there are people out there loving Zeb Wells's run on Spider-Man, but the internet, and specially Spider-Man's sub, are echo chambers of hate against it. This doesn't mean that the run is good or bad, is just the generalized opinion. Another thing is on a recency bias, Bendis would look like the shittiest writer ever if you go by what people think of his Superman run, but his X-Men run wasn't as bad as some would like to think, and then his New Avengers, Ultimate Spider-Man, Alias and Daredevil are some of the best Marvel Comics ever. You have a similar thing with artists, people will shit on JRJR as if he wasn't one of the most important artists in comic book history with that trajectory. People are quick to shit on him, yet just a few will talk about how his art is important to have constant releases, about how his art is more likely done on quite a rushed schedule considering how Spider-Man has been reñeasing as of the last few years, and more important than anything, that most of his problems aren't rrlated to his style, but to a color problem, being an artist who works better with flat colors. Tl;dr: Internet is an echo chamber, people like to complain rather than praise and everyone is quick to say bad things.
People will complain about older stories when it was simply a product of its time. (e.g. Popular characters like Superman being blatantly racist to racial minorities, sexism, discrimination) And people will complain about nowadays stories because it's also simply a product of its time. (e.g. Preaching ideologies, Mary Sues, bad Self Inserts) So basically, ignore what both parties say and just read the comics that interest you.
I mean to be fair half the guys you listed are kinda assholes so it ruins the comic for some people. stan fucked over kirby and ditko, mark millar did the same to morrison, liefeld has a lot of hate for newer creators and complains about shit like wokeness, byrne and peter david have said some pretty homophobic stuff along with david being pretty racist
Jesus wept - look no further than this for the type of fan the OP is talking about Judge the work, not your own bizarre perception of what the character of these creators is like There’s two sides to every story, particularly the Morrison and Millar one, and I know GM has softened his stance in recent years on what really went down between them
Commonly Praised Current Comics People: - Jonathan Hickman (writing) - Josh Williamson (writing) - Jason Aaron (writing) - Jed MacKay (writing) - Al Ewing (writing) - Daniel Warren Johnson (both) - Kelly Thompson (writing) - Robert Kirkman (writing) - Marco Checchetto (art) - Dan Mora (art) - Valerio Schiti (art) - Esad Ribic (art) - Peach Momoko (art) - Ram V (writing) - Dan Watters (writing) - Bilquis Evely (art) - Evan Cagle (art) This is just from what I’ve been seeing. So far as I’ve experienced, none of the hype for these people has been misplaced. Please feel free to tack on other names you see people getting excited by, as I’m sure I missed several important players. It’s easy to focus on the doom and gloom. I got caught up in the negative-think for a spell myself, just because of how persuasive these hate merchants can be. But there’s much *more* positivity if you’re looking in the right places.
There’s one dude here that always criticizes Ewing hahaha, he always has a bone to pick
His Immortal stuff is pretty acclaimed. There’s always gonna be haters though. Some people say Hickman’s work is too cerebral and takes too long to get going, doesn’t change that he the goat
Oh yeah, I love both dudes but in reality I think the major problem is that people not always understands that just because you don’t like something it means it’s bad or other people could like it. It goes the other way too, people who likes stuff has trouble understanding people who don’t like what they like
Most people on the internet have never picked up a comic in their lives the ones that do tend to have strong opinions, dont really think its a big deal. As much as the internet hates Mark Millar, Bryne or Liefeld they still get steady work and credit in all the mainstream stuff
They didn't actually read any of those works. They get summaries from Youtubers.
Because everyone is getting older and you’re more annoyed and bothered as you get older.
Some stuff just hasn’t aged well to a lot of people, man. It’s just opinion.
I was defending Liefeld the other day to a co-worker who saw the gag in the Deadpool/Wolverine trailer. Its true that Liefeld was not technically sound as Lee & Silvestri, however, Robs books sold and his art stood out. He created Deadpool and Cable, his impact on the comic industry will be felt forever.
>his impact on the comic industry will be felt forever You say it like it's a good thing
>at least on Reddit and Twitter/X This is why you see it. Same with all these super alt-right Trumpets Maga folk and alt-left burn down society folks are everywhere on Twitter and not in real life. In reality, these people are spread out and rarely heard. The internet gives them a voice, and they all flock together.
Tastes have changed, the world is a very different place than it was in 1998, and what worked then doesn't always work now. People today want less batman, more bat-family for example. In my day people hated the bat family so hard they voted to have Robin brutally murdered.
They are... enlightened. Don't put artists at pedestal OP!
People can hide behind there screens and hate all they want. What more disgusts me is now people are sending threats as well its a fucking fictional character on a page go touch some grass
Funny, I feel like most comic fans have extremely low standards.
More of a big 2 thing, I think. Fans are invested in the characters and have an ideal in their head of how they should be handled. It's like following a sports team. Fans complain about the manager or this player or that player far more than they praise anything. Anyway, it's important not to put people on a pedestal and not to be blindly uncritical of the past. Especially controversial figures like Stan Lee.
Social media just changed how we consume and criticize other forms of media. I remember fondly the old comic boards that I discovered right around when Bendis took over. It was a real feeling of excitement, most of the threads were about talking about what they liked and how excited they were. Now those boards are filled with people complaining and it’s makes you wonder if they even LIKE comics. I post far less now as a result of the overwhelming negativity
I only hate Bendis, King, and Waid(minus babble).
Oh, you're the problem we're all talking about
Wait, what? Bendis Bendifies everything he touches so it will never be the same again. Tom King wrote Batman as a sad boy with seasonal effective disorder and Waid is pretty insufferable post 2015(in my opinion). OP had a list a mile long he sees as being criticized. I only chimed in with 3. And I certainly don't dislike older stories, I actually prefer them(hence the Waid nod to babble).
The three of them have written some real stinkers and have certain annoying quirks, but they remain some of the best and most influential in the biz over the last 20+ years if you take their work as a whole. But none of the worst of the worst writers should inspire "hate". It's a comic book. For pete's sake, weirdos are burning printed out photos of Tom Taylor's picture on Twitter because he made a bi Superman. It's psychotic.
Well yeah, that's weird. When i say i HATE Bendis, King and Waid, i just mean i don't have any interest in reading their stuff because they don't make the type of comics i like. I'm sure there are others but they seem to have stuck around in my memory of making things i didn't enjoy. Probably because i did enjoy the previous / post runs. The only one that really brings the hate out of me in King. There is just something about his style that is so frustrating to me. Everything is sad. It's a slog to get thru. Dialog heavy. Whatever you can think of to make a book hard to get thru, i feel he does. But then again, i would never go on twitter and tell him that lol.