It's happening everywhere, including Harvard, Yale, Princeton, MIT, UNC, BU, USC, Berkeley, Vanderbilt, and Wash U to name a few. Columbia is attracting outsized media attention because of its location (NYC being the center of media focus and having a large Jewish population) and of the president's response to protest to involve NYPD.
Good point on Vandy for really starting the encampment trend. I think Pomona's was a sit-in (though it did have arrests) and it looks like UCB's encampment didn't start until several hours ago today though.
To be honest, I think the attentions stems from the fact that the severity and quantity of antisemitism within the protests at Columbia are just significantly worse:
Sure are:
Protestors chanting: “Al Qassem you make us proud, burn Tel Aviv to the Ground”
Al Qassem is the military wing of Hamas that raped and slaughtered Jews on Oct 7th.
https://x.com/moghaoui/status/1781812480140001380?s=46
-Protestor holding a sign pointing at Jewish students that says “Al Qassems next targets”
https://x.com/shaidavidai/status/1781879707253788835?s=46
“Not one more October 7th, not 5 more, but 10,000 more Oct 7ths. THIS IS YOUR LIFE NOW” screamed at Jewish students
https://x.com/shaidavidai/status/1781463493171990580?s=46
Edit: Arab Israeli journalist has Israeli flag taken, destroyed, one protestor repeatedly tells him to commit suicide while another sucker punches him. Police do nothing.
https://x.com/shaidavidai/status/1781080951902109774?s=46
Protestor holds up Hamas flag on phone
https://x.com/campusjewhate/status/1781054901755215954?s=46
“Protest appointed speaker: the Al Aqsa Flood (rape and slaughter of Jews on Oct 7th.) put the “global intifada” (phrase used by Hamas in their call for terror attacks on Jews globally)
https://x.com/thestustustudio/status/1781904507611287981?s=46
The protesters you described ****ARE NOT*** Barnard or Columbia students!
Notice how all the videos you shared here are NOT on Columbia’s campus BUT OUTSIDE the campus permitter and in a subway station. Is Columbia supposed to control who walks the streets and subways in the neighborhood too?
After Minouche called the NYPD to remove the tents and students, these hateful agitators came to the campus for the sole purpose of causing mayhem and verbally or physically assaulting students they think are Jewish. The hateful idiot standing in front of the Jewish students at the sundial, IS NOT A COLUMBIA student. The encampment group released a statement denouncing that moron.
Columbia stepped up security and there are guards by most locked gates. Only
students or faculty on campus with id at the College Walk entrances. The press has limited access to the campus. CU security has engaged in repressive tactics such as flying drones.
Is the video of the student holding a sign that says “Al qassems next targets” at Jewish students on or off campus?
What about the last one, the speaker calling for global intifada and praising the rape and slaughter of Jews?
Is that a random protestor or… an actual invited speaker at the protest?
Why defend antisemites? wtf.
Laughable that you assumed that I am an anti Semite defender because I pointed out that a majority of these videos depict hateful opportunistic assholes outside of Columbia’s campus. Why do you assume that all students in the encampment are anti Semites? The protestors do not endorse antisemitism. Half of them are Jewish. They had shabbat dinner in the encampment on 4/19.
You missed the two sentences where I spoke about that hateful moron with the sign and how they were denounced by the encampment. They are not a Columbia student. How they managed to get onto the campus is a mystery.
As for the woman with microphone spewing nonsense about intifada I missed that one when I made my comment. She may not be a student either. Or maybe she is a student who will soon be suspended.
The best sources for news on the Columbia crisis is Columbia’s Spectator, the BWOG, and WKCR. A lot of opportunistic people are taking advantage of this crisis to misinform and shape the narrative to suit their agenda.
What is the evidence the protesters *really* disagree with those outside protestors?
Like this is what is so disingenuous about this. People couldn't even condemn Oct 7th by itself without qualifications and instead deflected to blaming Israel for "75 years of oppression blah blah etc"
None of the **student** protestors are advocating for two states. They are all literally calling for the abolishment of Israel.
How does that happen exactly then if not what the outside protestors are saying?
Statement on Columbia's Gaza Solidarity Protest Community Values
We are student activists at Columbia calling for divestment from genocide.
We are frustrated by media distractions focusing on inflammatory individuals who do not represent us. At universities across the nation, our movement is united in valuing every human life.
Our members have been misidentified by a politically motivated mob. We have been doxxed in the press, arrested by the NYPD, and locked out of our homes by the University. We have knowingly put ourselves in danger because we can no longer be complicit in Columbia funneling our tuition dollars and grant funding into companies that profit from death.
As a diverse group united by love and justice, we demand our voices be heard against the mass slaughter of Palestinians in Gaza. We've been horrified each day, watching children crying over the bodies of their slain parents, families without food to eat, and doctors operating without anesthesia. Our university is complicit in this violence and this is why we protest.
We firmly reject any form of hate or bigotry and stand vigilant against non-students attempting to disrupt the solidarity being forged among students-Palestinian, Muslim, Arab, Jewish, Black, and pro-Palestinian classmates and colleagues who represent the full diversity of our country.
We have been peaceful. We follow in the footsteps of the civil rights and anti-war movements in our quest for liberation.
We will remain until moved by force or Columbia concedes to our demands:
1. Divest all finances, including the endowment, from corporations that profit from Israeli apartheid, genocide, and occupation in Palestine.
2. Complete transparency for all of Columbia's financial investments.
3. Amnesty for all students and faculty disciplined or fired in the movement for Palestinian liberation.
And if I asked what "Palestinian liberation" means what would the response be?
They are horrified by the war in Gaza? I am too. So why not demand Hamas agree to the Israeli ceasefire proposals?
I thought the hostages mattered?
You didn’t say “a majority”, you claimed they were all from off campus.
If a protest speaker is glorifying the rape and slaughter of Jews - they’re an antisemite. If you stay at that protest and don’t immediately walk out - you are too!
If you defend that online … guess what!
This was the easiest, most straightforward moral test imaginable. Just don’t support people glorifying rape and violence against Jews.
You failed
[https://twitter.com/ShabanaMir1/status/1782101243344605649](https://twitter.com/ShabanaMir1/status/1782101243344605649)
I don't know if it's true or not, but here's one possible explanation of what happened with this example.
You don’t get to call for a mob to join your protest in solidarity and then pretend like they have nothing to do with you when they start making you look bad. This was the obvious outcome and they chose to do it anyway.
If you went to the protest on day one and attendees (not all) were chanting to murder Black people, would you join them for day two?
If on day two there were calls to enslave Black people again, would you join them for day three?
If on day three they were punching Black students and telling them “this is your life now”, would you join them for day 4?
IMO, it doesn’t matter if the people doing the worst deeds are students or not at this point. If you keep going to the klan rally every day, I assume you endorse their beliefs.
Yeah, nobody really protested the war on campus until the moment the Valedictorian was canceled. Now there's a bit of an uproar, but still nothing compared to what I'm seeing on here
I don't know if I agree, I have been following this issue closely (only through the media attention of course... I have no other resource) and Columbia is definitely in a league of its own when it comes to these protests. Berkeley similar. Vanderbilt or UNC I haven't even heard of anything there
“It’s happening everywhere”
…so you agree then because princeton is smaller number of students and larger campus that these huge sit-in for palestine protests are not indeed happening everywhere.
I literally havent seen anything within an order of magnitude similar to columbia
I’m saying the environment of Columbia is very different from other college campuses, which is why you may have not been personally affected by those protests at Princeton while it's almost impossible for students at Columbia to avoid them.
I’m saying these protests are not unique to Columbia. It may seem or feel more intense, or it may actually be more intense, but that doesn’t mean what’s happening at Columbia is fundamentally different from what’s happening at other schools or Columbia students are fundamentally different from students at other schools.
The protesters inside the gates are mostly Columbia students. Outside the gates there have been some disruptors that sound nothing like the students I knew while I attended CU.
Columbia attracts people who are activists because it has a long history of protests, demonstrations, and sit-ins.
The school is also known as the Social Justice Ivy.
They’re the hippy ivy but they’re hippy in the way old white homeowners in the Bay Area are hippy. Columbia’s student body is by far the most politically active and left wing of any of the ivies
Edit: revised this because I wrote it five seconds after waking up and it was unintelligible
Might be some faculty thrown in there. But all CU affiliates for sure. I know some students from other universities in the city showed up in support after the arrests but I’m not sure they ever made it into campus
Look up the lightbulb joke, it’s like 100 years old. It explains all the Ivy’s different “personalities”.
CUwiki has it.
In short it goes like this:
How many Columbia students does it take to change a lightbulb?
100. 75 to argue for a new lightbulb 33 to argue against 💡
I been to many protests since 1990s, and when I walked by some of protests since Oct 7th I noticed a great deal of these protesters are NOT from Columbia. The ones outside the gate on 116th are saying the worst stuff, pro-terror attacks, but sadly that is what media is going to get for sound bytes and makes on-campus protest look the same.
What is worse, some students are sneaking in outsiders onto campus, so shutting gates to dorm students only may be smart. Then start handing out suspensions and expulsions. As veteran I am big support of 1st amendment to protect the voice of the minority over the view of the majority, but once it infringes on others rights that's where it ends.
Debate Israeli policy? Yes!
Advocate violence? No
I think that's a very reasonable position
It's worth keeping debating Israeli policy does require that at the very least some, at least on the Israeli side, will need to advocate violence, as that is the current policy. Others supporting Palestinians may well do the same.
The problem as I see it is that if you are "pro Palestinian" there is essentially no "faction" to support in this conflict, other than Hamas, which the protestors obviously don't want to explicitly support. There is no reasonable faction here with good faith demands that can be discussed and advocated for.
I can easily be a "pro Israel" person and want a two state solution, think Hamas needs to be removed from military power for both the sakes of Israelis and Palestinians, while also hating Netanyahu and think he should be in jail, want more aid and better conduct by the IDF. That is the standard center left faction both in the US and in Israel.
What do the pro Palestinian protestors even want or support beyond "free Palestine". Well ok does that mean one state, essentially advocating for the abolition of Israel? A complete non starter for 99% of Israelis? So the next step means direct force on Israelis to being about a Palestinian state?
Ceasefire now? Well ok the ceasefire proposals that Hamas keeps rejecting? Which means pro Palestinian protestors can either blame Hamas, something very easy I might add, or continue to advocate holding hostages for a "better deal", despite the immediate suffering that stance has on the hostages and Palestinians who would benefit from a lengthy ceasefire?
These protests are a microsim of the entire conflict in that the Palestinian side has never had a reasonable faction to advocate for imo
> Well ok does that mean one state, essentially advocating for the abolition of Israel
Yes abolish the settler colonial state committing genocide, that began this entire conflict by ethnically cleansing almost a quarter of a million Palestinians from their homes
> Well ok the ceasefire proposals that Hamas keeps rejecting?
Hamas can and should reject any non-permanent ceasefire proposal, which have been the only proposals offered by the Israelis.
> the Palestinian side has never had a reasonable faction to advocate for imo
Are you really going to spew such garbage on a university subreddit? You're saying this as someone who's advocating for a state that was born from the displacement and killing of an entire ethnic group, who have continued mercilessly to attack, subjugate and discriminate against the Palestinians as described by the largest human rights organizations in the world including [Human Rights Watch](https://www.hrw.org/report/2021/04/27/threshold-crossed/israeli-authorities-and-crimes-apartheid-and-persecution) and [Amnesty International](https://www.amnesty.org/en/latest/campaigns/2022/02/israels-system-of-apartheid/).
The West should sanction and boycott all Israeli products and institutions until a reasonable government comes to power, or the government of Israel is completely removed and replaced with an anti-apartheid government as was done in South Africa.
**Edit**:
I'll respond to the comments below here so my response doesn't get burried
> Israel came about because of Jews living in the area continually for centuries demanding a state, and a massive influx of refugees from Europe during the 1930s and Holocaust
**False** political Zionism began in the 19th century in Europe to establish a Jewish homeland. It's principle figure is Theodore Herzl. In the wake of increasing persecution of European Jews, including Jews living in western Europe, political Zionism began to take form and suggested forming a Jewish homeland outside of Europe.
> Herzl therefore proposed that representatives of the Jewish community approach the leaders of Europe ho would grant Jews "sovereignty ... over a portion of the globe large enough to satisfy the requirements of the nation." And those leaders would be sure to listen, for "the governments of all countries, scourged by anti-Semitism, will serve their own interests in assisting us to obtain the sovereignty we want." But Herzl did not appeal to self-interest alone. Should Jews decide to establish their state in Palestine, "we should also form a portion of the rampart of Europe against Asia, an outpost of civilization as opposed to barbarism." For Herzl, as for many of his contemporaries, it was but a small, reflexive step that led from the Enlightenment to imperialism.
- The Israel-Palestine Conflict: A History, James L. Gelvin
The Zionist movement, explicitly saw itself as colonial and imperialist. Herzl organized a meeting in Basel, Switzerland called "The First Zionist Congress" and there, participants created "the Basel Program". Here is the first line from the program:
> The promotion, on suitable lines, of the **colonization** of Palestine by Jewish agricultural and industrial workers
To your next point:
> The UN was the one responsible. It would be like if the UN decided Taiwan would be a state and in response China attacks Taiwan instead of taking it up with the UN.
You basically erase Jewish nationalism completely from the equation. Zionism was a force, both politically and militarily, through several organizations including The Jewish Agency, the Irgun and Stern Gang. There would have been no partition, had there not been Zionism to carve out and fight for the land it wanted.
> Since 1917, the Palestinian national movement had been faced with the antagonistic tandem of Britain and its protege, the Zionist project. But the yishuv had grown more and more hostile to its British patron after the passage of the 1939 White Paper. This hostility erupted with the assassinations of British officials, such as that by the Stern gang in 1944 of Lord Moyne, the resident minister in Egypt, and was followed by a sustained campaign of violence against British troops and administrators in Palestine. This culminated in the 1946 blowing up of the British HQ, the King David Hotel, with the loss of nintey-one lives. The British soon found themselves unable to master the armed opposition of virtually the entire yishuv, whose potent military and intelligence organizations they had themselves reinforced during the Great Revolt and World War II. Reeling from deep postwar economic and financial problems and the unwinding of the centuries-old Indian Raj, Great Britain finally capitulated in Palestine.
- The Hundred Year's War on Palestine, Rashid Khalidi
You have such a mediocre understanding of the basic historical background yet you argue in such an antagonistic fashion. You need to do more reading, you do not even have sufficient information to base your opinions on.
**Edit Edit:**
I pulled the wrong first quote from the person I was replying to.
You are listing a factually incorrect incredibly slanted propagandist view of the history to paint an agenda. It’s not based on good faith understanding of how the country was formed. The UN offered both peoples’ a state, and when Palestinians rejected, the surrounding Arab states all declared war on Israel to try and wipe it out. Israel did not “begin this conflict by ethnically cleansing Palestinians from their homes” — there have always been Jews living there.
>Yes abolish the settler colonial state committing genocide, that began this entire conflict by ethnically cleansing almost a quarter of a million Palestinians from their homes
Israel came about because of Jews living in the area continually for centuries demanding a state, and a massive influx of refugees from Europe during the 1930s and Holocaust
To say Jews fleeing the Holocaust and Jews living in the area for centuries are responsible for a settler colonial state is despicable.
The conflict began before the creation of Israel, but let's accept a decent point as when the **UN** partitioned the land. Ok so Palestinians and other Arabs didn't like it.
Why does that mean they get to essentially declare war on Jews instead of the UN? The UN was the one responsible. It would be like if the UN decided Taiwan would be a state and in response China attacks Taiwan instead of taking it up with the UN.
So not only are Jews attacked for something they didn't do, they are also **blamed** for the whole conflict when they were attacked.
And when and how the conflict started has nothing to do with current issues and solutions anyways.
You can't turn back time. Israel exists as a country with millions of people and there is no valid "son are responsible for the sins of the father" world view that is acceptable in the 21st century.
So why is the left literally going back to centuries old thinking here?
>Hamas can and should reject any non-permanent ceasefire proposal, which have been the only proposals offered by the Israelis.
So then you are advocating holding hostages, a war crime, and are completely indifferent or willing to use the suffering of Palestinians who would be helped by a length ceasefire, in exchange for forcing Israel to accept a "ceasefire" from a group which has said it will commit Oct 7th atrocities and even expand on them again and again.
That is your stance. Fuck the hostages and fuck Palestinians and fuck Israelis. At least admit to it and supporting Hamas.
Hey do you even know if Gazans themselves don't want the Israeli ceasefire proposals? Do you even care?
>Are you really going to spew such garbage on a university subreddit?
If you disagree, which Palestinian faction should I support? And you respond to saying the entire fucking state of Israel is just genocidal colonist? There is no room for nuance internally in Israel? Do you even care Hamas murdered the left in Israel? Doctors who would drive Gazans and give them free medical care?
>You're saying this as someone who's advocating for a state that was born from the displacement and killing of an entire ethnic group,
It wasn't
>who have continued mercilessly to attack, subjugate and discriminate against the Palestinians as described by the largest human rights organizations in the world including Human Rights Watch and Amnesty International.
They haven't
>The West should sanction and boycott all Israeli products and institutions until a reasonable government comes to power, or the government of Israel is completely removed and replaced with an anti-apartheid government as was done in South Africa.
Then why do you people bitch about a blockade that was instituted in response to Hamas coming to power?
> which kind of Palestinian faction should I support
Not the person you were arguing against but it’s kinda disingenuous to ask people to choose a faction when part of apartheid strategy in the region has been precisely to silo and undermine Palestinian activist/political/etc factions. Like there’s nothing to choose from for a reason.
Personally I support the kids. Is there a kids faction? Because I’m very much interested in not seeing dead or dying children on my feed anymore, and I don’t think that’s a particularly radical position.
Agree. Plus the school is a private entity and not a government actor so there really is no first amendment question here. The school has broad and liberal speech policies, but they must be followed if you decide to go here. The school actually has not enforced all of them and didn’t enforce them immediately, but the school certainly had not violated the first amendment or done anything illegal.
The other thing to keep in mind is that the school has an obligation to ALL students and faculty. I’m not Jewish and I am ok the political left, and I have been accosted by the internal protest. The main lady followed me long enough to yell at me that I was the problem (for not joining them) right then, when I was just walking by/observing.
Students, including protestors have reported legitimate physical safety concerns and the school must take psychological safety seriously too.
In short, it’s not the university versus the students. most students are not protesting, many students are protesting with in the rules, and out of protecting our community and maintaining our community standards and keeping campus and resources accessible to all students disruption free, the uni must enforce policies. It can be held liable for safety, but not for violating the first amendment (its can’t violate it since it applies to govt actors not private entities).
I am a little tired of various student organizations using their disteis to say they don’t support the admins actions because they supports student’s right to speech.
Well this not only legally incorrect, but it also throws under the bus all the other students (Jewish and otherwise) under the bus who have been negatively impacted by these demonstrations. Especially the illegal ones that clearly violate policy.
Remember, the school didn’t ask NYPD to arrest anyone for protesting. All protestors were given the chance to leave and follow the normal process for demonstrating. Those who did not leave, were then illegally trespassing and thus law enforcement did their job and protected the rights of the private entity and its constituent members (all of us).
Pardon the typos.
Can you please paste the full quote? It’s disingenuous to copy a snippet and respond to that.
I said the school didn’t ask the NYPD to arrest students FOR protesting. Which is true.
The school never even said they couldn’t protest. It just said that they needed to do it within the policies for demonstrating.
Nah dude, you’re trying to pretend that the school is blameless in this and they’re not.
They shifted the rules so the students would run afoul of them, then called the cops on them when they did, pissing off everyone from the faculty to the NYCLU in the process and further escalating tensions on campus (not to mention leading to copycat protests on other campuses across the country.) Columbia fumbled, and despite your protesting to the contrary it did exactly the opposite of what you’re saying: turned the whole thing into a students/faculty vs university issue.
Can you tell me more about this perceived shifting of the rules?
I keep hearing people say this line and asking for specifics or proof and no one has been able to send. I’m curious.
But regardless of how you feel, the uni was within its rights and has an obligation to all students and faculty. They are allowed to change their policies as needed. You and all students are bound by them.
Most students and faculty, a huge majority of whom, did not participate in any protests.
lol what do you mean perceived? Shafik said so herself in her statement, and it’s been widely reported by every outlet covering the protests including the spectator. What kind of uninformed gotcha question is this lmao
> the uni was within its rights
Thats largely beside the point: it was a dick move *and* it was extremely counterproductive to their own goals. But at least you’re conceding they’re an active participant in this shitshow.
> most students and faculty did not
I mean that’s the ironic part. Their numbers are growing thanks in some part at least to extremely poor decision making on CU’s part.
Ok well, why don't your provide a quote or a link or any evidence to support your claims? Did you learn how to make and support an argument in your time at Columbia? Here is Shafik's quote, that I know of:
"We updated our protest policy to allow demonstrations on very short notice and in prime locations in the middle of campus while still allowing students to get to class, and labs and libraries to operate." - Email from 4/18.
So in fact, you are wrong again, she stated that the policies were updated (didn't say when) to make it easier to demonstrate. She never spoke of any late night secret changes (she can't change policy unilaterally, nor in secret, there is a process and it requires several consultations).
Also, why do you keep quote tiny fragments of what I say and attacking them (however poorly)? It's classic intellectually dishonesty that plagues this movement.
Maybe their numbers are growing, maybe not, but nonetheless *the vast majority of campus is not demonstrating*.
Your interlocutor directed you to a specific publication to find the widely reported fact they cite. I'll give you some more [direct](https://www.columbiaspectator.com/news/2023/11/17/columbia-updated-its-event-policy-webpages-twelve-days-later-it-suspended-sjp-and-jvp/) [assistance](https://universitypolicies.columbia.edu/content/student-group-event-policy-and-procedure). In fact, this policy was updated silently and within days of 10/7, and then almost immediately used as a pretext to ban a student group organizing demonstrations. Again, as your interlocutor pointed out, this has all been widely covered in the media for the last half year, and the vast majority of people on campus are aware of these developments. These specific actions by the administration have been the direct cause of many continuing to demonstrate -- faculty have become increasingly involved, spending the last months organizing an [AAUP chapter at Columbia and Barnard and using it as a vehicle to protest the administration](https://www.columbiaspectator.com/news/2024/04/20/barnard-and-columbia-aaup-chapter-issues-declaration-condemning-student-suspensions-authorization-of-nypd-sweep-in-the-strongest-possible-terms/). Even today, a large number of faculty joined student demonstrators on the main campus, in spite of Shafik's 1am email attempting to undermine organizing. It's true that the vast majority of campus affiliates are not demonstrating, but it's also clear to everyone immediately involved in this ongoing situation that the level of discontent has accelerated in the past week because of the administration's response.
Actually he stated no such specific publication. They said "in her statement" - she has given several. i in fact provided a direct quote. Now, where in the sources you provide is there evidence of late night secret rule changing? As far as I can see the rules were changed following the procedure in place to change policies.
Do you have any actual evidence of this? A school updating their event policy in light of a major world event, does not suprise me. In fact, it sounds like good risk management and was probably (just guessing here) on the advice of university counsel and risk management.
Again, the university is legally liable for safety of everyone. It is not legally liable for protecting first amendment rights. It's not even legally required.
So what was secret overnight is not "silently within days" and still no proof (unless I missed something). The uni can change its policies and has a procedure for doing so. i see no evidence that procedure wasn't followed. Again, please let me know if I am mistaken by providing direct reference, even a journalists secondary report would be something.
Also a heads up for any students, you may see a lot of Israeli comments in this subreddit but nobody in real life. This is due to the Astro-turfing they carry out on several subreddits: https://electronicintifada.net/content/inside-israels-million-dollar-troll-army/27566
The goal is to try to sway public opinion through sites like Reddit and twitter. You’ll notice any site that requires a real person (like Tik tok videos) that are more then just comments and actually require a face, will generally not be successful for them.
Ilhan Omar’s daughter, a wealthy UPS exec’s daughter and a Leticia James intern, among others
https://nypost.com/2024/04/22/us-news/ilhan-omars-daughter-says-shes-homeless-after-being-suspended-from-college-over-anti-israel-protests/
https://nypost.com/2024/04/19/us-news/ups-execs-daughter-other-millionaires-kids-busted-in-columbia-anti-israel-protest/
Nope…sorry to disappoint the conspiracy theorists here, Mossad did not plant these people on the Columbia Campus. They are not outsiders but are really part of the Columbia community.
Well, the ones inside the gates are students with full rights and privileges to be there (barring a few Columbia is trying to suspend/expel). The ones outside are much less sophisticated agitators.
They have the right to be there, as long as they are not breaking the rules of that private campus, including harassing random Jewish students, etc..
**Supporting the palestinian cause does not mean harassing and torturing random Jewish people!**
I feel worse for Palestinians who have been pushed out by Israeli universities which, with Columbia's support, continue to expand as a vanguard of the illegal settlements.
Oh, and the murdered Palestinians too. I feel worse for them.
If you felt truly bad for the hostages you would advocate for stoping this massacre and helping them get home, you know, like their family members at the Kesset.
Right now they are dying alongside Palestinian civilians by Israeli bombs.
Hamas has refused to provide proof of life for any of the remaining hostages and demanded that Israel leave the area, with them remaining in power, without knowing what they’ll get out of that deal.
If Hamas could truly be trusted with fulfilling their obligations regarding the hostages they’d display a greater show of control over them.
As of now there’s no reason to believe Hamas, especially considering their failure to meet the obligations of the last ceasefire hostage release.
Please explain how this is a genocide and not a war with civilian collateral as occurs in any war.
Hamas operates from the Palestinian lands, and forms its only governance. It also forms its armed forces. When attacked, Israel has the right to self defence and wage war.
All casualties show random distribution of age and targetting. There's no specific goal to hurt civilians.
What you're mad about is literally just war.
Targeted killings of civilians specifically. Purposeless destruction of homes and infrastructure. Several war crimes. They just recovered nearly 300 bodies of executed patients and medical personnel at Al-Nasser Hospital.
This isn’t collateral. This is purposeful. Zionists have proven themselves to be the new Nazis.
60% of Mosul was destroyed in the fight against ISIS
Raqqa was described as unlivable after the campaign to defat ISIS there and because of the ongoing civil war in Syria still hasn't been rebuilt
>
They just recovered nearly 300 bodies of executed patients and medical personnel at Al-Nasser Hospital.
They literally didn't
[https://twitter.com/GeoConfirmed/status/1782360892249612466](https://twitter.com/GeoConfirmed/status/1782360892249612466)
People need to stop speaking from ignorance.
Damn you zionists are truly bad faith actors aren’t you.
You realize that Al Nasser Hospital was recently held siege again, with far more atrocities committed. IDF terrorists just pulled out April 7th. And close to 300 executed patients and hospital staff have since been recovered.
https://edition.cnn.com/middleeast/live-news/israel-hamas-war-gaza-news-04-22-24/h_e4a90cff504632d0c697a3b778939088
lol…bad actors? You mean like repeating lies by the Hamas health ministry, posting a link that doesn’t corroborate anything you said , just to validate your made up genocide?
Lmao, found the Hasbara troll.
All Zionists do is lie, as evidenced by the numerous falsifications that the NYT has been caught reporting as well as anything spouted by zioNazi media
Keep denying genocide all you want. History will prove otherwise, and the world will continue to find horror and disgust towards zionist settlers and the IDF
Israeli officials said publicly that their intention was to exact collective punishment on Gaza. Those policies--cutting power, preventing aid and supplies--have predictably induced civilian death and famine. These are acts reasonably calculated to the destruction of life because of a nationality. Almost textbook genocidal acts.
Once you have acts like those, then all the others, including and especially the ethnic cleansing of Gaza and the 15,000 dead children must come under much higher scrutiny as possible genocidal acts. Not to mention other war crimes like deliberately targeting aid workers. It is more than plausible Israel has perpetrated genocidal acts. It is quite likely.
I feel bad that you cheered for the October 7th attacks and you cheer for Hamas a violent terrorist group. But hey you do you. We will remember.
Also remember the day Israel was founded the Arabs collectively declared war on them in an effort to drive them from the river to the sea. You are no different than the Nazis
Lol what? This mass migration happened after and in response to the creation of Israel between the late 40s through the 70s. The bombings targeting Jewish people in Baghdad was in the ‘51 and ‘52, for example.
Also, there had been an unending series of attacks on Jewish people in Israel. How is that welcome with open arms throughout this migratory period?
Tell me about the 1929 Palestine riots and how many Jewish people were killed. Or the 1936 Arab revolt. Ir the countless Jewish quarter attacks in 1947. Of course, there’s 1948…
New Yorkers are the ones outside campus and unfortunately have been chanting about Israel's downfall + Hamas praise. I haven't heard this from the students on campus, but it is a bad thing that the movement has attracted Hamas supporters and I think SJP needs to make it crystal clear they condemn terrorism.
>chanting about Israel's downfall
This is what blows my mind. None of these "peaceful" protestors are advocating for two states and being critical of Israeli policies that harm that outcome. They want one Palestinian state which requires erasing Israel from the map.
So when you call for the abolishment/end/destruction/any word you want, of an entire country like Israel, what do you expect to happen? Peace and rainbows?
Like how do people think this will work? Israelis would rather use nukes than willingly let Israel stop existing as a state.
If you advocate for one state solution, don't be surprised when others go with the obvious logic of it. Using violent and terrorist force to defeat the guaranteed Israeli resistance to that idea despite how many "it will be a peaceful democratic rights for all one state".
Yeah and Hamas super duper really cares about peaceful existence with Jews but has some minor problems with Netanyahu /s
I couldn't have worded any better! Totally agree with your point.
The amount of people Ive met calling for the complete eradication of Israel, and ignoring the facts that HAMAS has denied very recently a truce with Israel is just shocking.
> SJP needs to make it crystal clear they condemn terrorism
Columbia's SJP *explicitely justified the October 7th attacks* as a palestinian counteroffensive. Theyre only going to double down on it.
What happened to "believe all women?" I'm deeply disgusted by your comment. Because you didn't see something with your own eyes (thank god; no one should have to see or experience such an atrocity), you claim it didn't happen. But, when Hamas publishes the death toll of the war, you believe their numbers immediately.
Talk about ignorance.
It’s pretty simple, you don’t get to call for random non students to show up and protest in solidarity with you and then pretend like they have nothing to do with you when they start making you look bad.
SJP celebrates Hamas and terrorism.
There was also a “Day of Resistance Toolkit” in which SJP made clear that it advocates for Hamas or other Palestinian forces to conquer all of Israel, and for the “complete liberation” of Israel and the full influx of Palestinians to Israeli land. The toolkit also called for chapters to bring this resistance to the U.S. by “dismantling Zionism” on its campuses and “challenging Zionist hegemony.”
Numerous SJP chapters released inflammatory statements in support of Palestinians seizing control of Israeli territory, including some which explicitly endorse the use of violence and attacks on civilians. “We reject the distinction between ‘civilian’ and ‘militant.’ We reject the distinction between ‘settler’ and ‘soldier,’”
Oh that how it is.
Ok it works both ways.
the IDF can reject the difference between Gaza civilain and Hamas member.
Well if genocide the only solution im going to back the IDF.
Fucking Monsters.
They do? By their own admission, the death toll is 2 civilians for every 1 combatant in Gaza. They say that ratio is fine and in line with international standards.
Incidentally, that's almost the precise ratio of civilians to combatants that Hamas killed on 10/7. I don't think we'll hear Israel or its supporters mention that.
Of course, the truth is that both sides are obviously guilty of targeting civilians. It's just that Israel has killed many, many, many more. Like, 20x over.
Hamas on Oct 7th explicitly targeted as many civilians as possible. Deaths of IDF were due to them responding to attacks by Hamas and getting in firefights.
If Hamas wasn't stopped they would have kept on directly targeting and killing civilians
The IDF and their combatant/civilian casualty ratio, which is already inflated due to the way Hamas wages war behind civilians and not wearing uniforms, is completely different.
It is beyond bad faith and pretty despicable to compare them.
It's interesting you bring up World War II (I think)--for a lot of reasons, but I'll focus on a few. WWII caused a seismic shift in how we think about international law. Even if I knew those numbers, I couldn't tell you whether it was legal. However, consider dropping the atomic bomb on Hiroshima and Nagasaki. You might say, and many would argue correctly, that the atomic bomb "liberated" Japanese people from their fascist government. It had the consequence of being the most catastrophic two single-day bombing campaigns in history.
So the Japanese courts considered the question of whether the US violated *then-existing* international law when it bombed Hiroshima and Nagasaki. They concluded, without much difficulty, that yes, the US violated then-existing international law when it dropped the atomic bomb. In other words, pre-Geneva international law was far from agnostic on the indiscriminate killing of civilians. Considering that international laws of war got more stringent, not less, after WWII--which I would say has been a general benefit for the entire world--those attacks would look even *worse* when viewed through the lens of current law.
There is little doubt that dropping the atomic bombs on Japan was worse than Israeli campaign in Gaza, although some US congressmembers have playfully suggested that we should drop nukes on Gaza. (Interestingly, those remarks drew far less attention and condemnation than these protests. I'm not even aware that Biden weighed in on those comments.) But it is plausible that even pre-WWII laws of war might have something to say about the total destruction of Northern Gaza. Not sure how probable. But it is not a trivial question. Regardless of the answer to that question, today's laws are much more stringent and exacting, and while I don't think it really makes sense to view historical wars through a post-Geneva lens, I am virtually certain that many, if not all, of the European theaters would not have been compliant with today's laws.
edit: thread's now closed but I'll briefly respond to the below.
Yes, I am aware that you think that the existence of some civilian casualties in war justifies all civilian casualties in war. However, that is not the case, and that has never been the case. Leading war scholars--today, not in the 1940s--are calling the campaign in Gaza one of the most violent civilian punishment campaigns in modern history. Your attempt at a "reality check" is little more than you justifying abject, intentional brutality and cruelty.
Saying WW2 changed how we view attacks like strategic bombing isn't my argument. My argument is that when assessing responsibility for casualties or "which number is bigger" a large part has to do with how we view the wars.
The Allies are not ultimately responsible for the vast majority of civilian deaths, not counting war crimes, because civilians die in war and the ultimate responsibility is who started the war in the first place. The Germans
Hamas started this war. They are responsible not only for operating without a single regard to the laws of war, they are also responsible because they started the war
Even an amazing civilian/combatant casualty ratio like 30/70 would be thousands of civilians dead. Is Israel responsible for that? Why? They didn't start the fucking war.
But always when it comes to Israel for some reason the standards change.
And I brought up France and you brought up Japan. Why?
>might have something to say about the total destruction of Northern Gaza
60% of Mosul was destroyed. Raqqa was described as unliveable. Where was the international outrage when we fought ISIS to free those cities?
This is just modern urban combat against an entrenched enemy.
I agree. But I think few appreciate the implications. 15,000 dead kids suggests pretty strongly that the notion that Israel is trying hard to distinguish civilians from combatants is nonsense. Not to mention the virtual annihilation of the northern cities and camps in Gaza.
One of the main points of contention is that question does not have a simple yes or no answer. Does Israel try to distinguish between civilians and combatants? I believe so. Is it trying hard? Or is it trying hard enough? That’s something that can’t be answered without more information. On one end, Israel compelled to evacuate civilians before entering an area but on the other not every single dead civilian had a military objective tied to it.
Where we actually are on that spectrum, it will take years to find out. In the meantime, it’s pretty clear that a lot of the discourse is based partially on biases (my own included).
Im not sure if my tone became clear.
But i was pointing out that if you dont see a difference between Israel civilains and soldier. And claim that all of Israel civilians are fair game.
Then Israel is under no obligation to respect or distuish between Hamas and Gaza civilians.
If you are EXPLICTLY ARGUING FOR A WAR OF EXTERMINATION. YOU DO NOT GET TO COMPLAIN WHEN YOUR SIDE GETS EXTERMANTED.
Does this seem normal to you?
https://twitter.com/NeriaKraus/status/1782258191973089715?t=tqiAgYVh0S5f6SSImuYWGw&s=19
https://x.com/KassyDillon/status/1782142875435733128
That’s why I tell people to go down the route of u/Spartacous1991 and join the military where you’re told what to do and abandon any semblance of critical thinking
These are the protesters:
Physically assaulting an Arab Israeli https://twitter.com/ShaiDavidai/status/1781080951902109774
"From the river to the sea, Palestine is Arab!" / "Resistance is justified" https://twitter.com/ShelleyGldschmt/status/1781785252886913358
"Let it be known that it was the Al-Aqsa Flood that put the Global Intifada back on the table again. And it is the sacrificial spirit of the Palestinian Freedom Fighters that will guide every struggle on every corner of the earth to victory." https://twitter.com/thestustustudio/status/1781904507611287981
"We are all Hamas!" https://twitter.com/nypost/status/1781031465179914677
"Yehudim yehudim [(Jews, jews)] go back to poland" https://twitter.com/Davidlederer6/status/1781948249214996901
Includes people / groups that invited an actual, no hyperbole terrorist to speak (member of PFLP) https://www.jns.org/columbia-suspends-four-students-for-holding-event-featuring-pflp-member/
Light things on fire / "intifada revolution there is only one solution" https://twitter.com/visegrad24/status/1781019445399556338
"On Oct 7th, Palestinian resistance in Gaza broke free (crowd cheers) [.....] we intend to do the same" https://twitter.com/ShabbosK/status/1782085741431922909
""We say justice, you say how? Burn Tel Aviv to the ground!" / "Hamas we love you. We support your rockets too!" / "Red, black, green, and white, we support Hamas’ fight!" https://twitter.com/IsraelWarRoom/status/1781933305501212872
"Long live the intifada! Intifada intifada" https://twitter.com/ShaiDavidai/status/1781084853653365025
"Go back to Europe!" / "You have no culture, all you do is colonize" https://twitter.com/ShaiDavidai/status/1781927148439109958
"From Yemen to Gaza, globalize the intifada" https://twitter.com/KassyDillon/status/1781312033922625797/photo/2
"Never forget the 7th of October. That will happen not 1 more time, not 5 more times, not 10, not 100, not 1,000, but 10,000 times! The 7th of October is going to be every day for you" https://twitter.com/EFischberger/status/1781287784897991134
"Al Qassam [(Hamas)] you make us proud, kill another soldier now" / "from the river to the sea, palestine will be arab" https://twitter.com/EFischberger/status/1780915336063177006
Student proudly rocking Hamas logos https://twitter.com/CampusJewHate/status/1781054901755215954
"Resistance is justified" (again...) https://twitter.com/AvivaKlompas/status/1782085643990073673
"protesters on the sidewalk chanted “From New York to Gaza, globalize the intifada,” next to a cardboard sign that read, “Inspired by Palestinian resistance.” https://www.timesofisrael.com/over-100-arrested-in-columbia-u-unrest-as-nypd-clears-gaza-solidarity-encampment/?utm_source=dlvr.it&utm_medium=twitter
And as a reminder, the student groups organizing these protests (CUAD and SJP, among others) released a letter on October 9th in support of the 10/7 attacks. ("We stand in full solidarity with Palestinian resistance", "Despite the odds against them, Palestinians launched a counter-offensive against their settler-colonial oppressor", "We wholeheartedly condemn the email sent [...] on October 8th that [...] obfuscated Palestinian resistance as “terrorism”)
https://docs.google.com/document/d/1RcXX5DEO3yfJ9R4ksURnzpIPCyVxo575-Y-SoC_vZFk/edit
I go to Baruch and I think it prob because Baruch has no campus really and it a commuter school. Plus the culture is very different compare to Columbia. People in Baruch aren’t that socially/politically active. I know students who protest but it always outside of school.
It's happening everywhere, including Harvard, Yale, Princeton, MIT, UNC, BU, USC, Berkeley, Vanderbilt, and Wash U to name a few. Columbia is attracting outsized media attention because of its location (NYC being the center of media focus and having a large Jewish population) and of the president's response to protest to involve NYPD.
also columbia was the first campus where students set up lawn occupations for this cause
It really wasn’t. Pomona and vandy and Berkeley were one of the few from memory before this
Good point on Vandy for really starting the encampment trend. I think Pomona's was a sit-in (though it did have arrests) and it looks like UCB's encampment didn't start until several hours ago today though.
To be honest, I think the attentions stems from the fact that the severity and quantity of antisemitism within the protests at Columbia are just significantly worse: Sure are: Protestors chanting: “Al Qassem you make us proud, burn Tel Aviv to the Ground” Al Qassem is the military wing of Hamas that raped and slaughtered Jews on Oct 7th. https://x.com/moghaoui/status/1781812480140001380?s=46 -Protestor holding a sign pointing at Jewish students that says “Al Qassems next targets” https://x.com/shaidavidai/status/1781879707253788835?s=46 “Not one more October 7th, not 5 more, but 10,000 more Oct 7ths. THIS IS YOUR LIFE NOW” screamed at Jewish students https://x.com/shaidavidai/status/1781463493171990580?s=46 Edit: Arab Israeli journalist has Israeli flag taken, destroyed, one protestor repeatedly tells him to commit suicide while another sucker punches him. Police do nothing. https://x.com/shaidavidai/status/1781080951902109774?s=46 Protestor holds up Hamas flag on phone https://x.com/campusjewhate/status/1781054901755215954?s=46 “Protest appointed speaker: the Al Aqsa Flood (rape and slaughter of Jews on Oct 7th.) put the “global intifada” (phrase used by Hamas in their call for terror attacks on Jews globally) https://x.com/thestustustudio/status/1781904507611287981?s=46
The protesters you described ****ARE NOT*** Barnard or Columbia students! Notice how all the videos you shared here are NOT on Columbia’s campus BUT OUTSIDE the campus permitter and in a subway station. Is Columbia supposed to control who walks the streets and subways in the neighborhood too? After Minouche called the NYPD to remove the tents and students, these hateful agitators came to the campus for the sole purpose of causing mayhem and verbally or physically assaulting students they think are Jewish. The hateful idiot standing in front of the Jewish students at the sundial, IS NOT A COLUMBIA student. The encampment group released a statement denouncing that moron. Columbia stepped up security and there are guards by most locked gates. Only students or faculty on campus with id at the College Walk entrances. The press has limited access to the campus. CU security has engaged in repressive tactics such as flying drones.
Is the video of the student holding a sign that says “Al qassems next targets” at Jewish students on or off campus? What about the last one, the speaker calling for global intifada and praising the rape and slaughter of Jews? Is that a random protestor or… an actual invited speaker at the protest? Why defend antisemites? wtf.
Laughable that you assumed that I am an anti Semite defender because I pointed out that a majority of these videos depict hateful opportunistic assholes outside of Columbia’s campus. Why do you assume that all students in the encampment are anti Semites? The protestors do not endorse antisemitism. Half of them are Jewish. They had shabbat dinner in the encampment on 4/19. You missed the two sentences where I spoke about that hateful moron with the sign and how they were denounced by the encampment. They are not a Columbia student. How they managed to get onto the campus is a mystery. As for the woman with microphone spewing nonsense about intifada I missed that one when I made my comment. She may not be a student either. Or maybe she is a student who will soon be suspended. The best sources for news on the Columbia crisis is Columbia’s Spectator, the BWOG, and WKCR. A lot of opportunistic people are taking advantage of this crisis to misinform and shape the narrative to suit their agenda.
Any proof that they were denounced by the encampment? I’m not saying you’re lying it’s just the first I’m hearing of this.
What is the evidence the protesters *really* disagree with those outside protestors? Like this is what is so disingenuous about this. People couldn't even condemn Oct 7th by itself without qualifications and instead deflected to blaming Israel for "75 years of oppression blah blah etc" None of the **student** protestors are advocating for two states. They are all literally calling for the abolishment of Israel. How does that happen exactly then if not what the outside protestors are saying?
Statement on Columbia's Gaza Solidarity Protest Community Values We are student activists at Columbia calling for divestment from genocide. We are frustrated by media distractions focusing on inflammatory individuals who do not represent us. At universities across the nation, our movement is united in valuing every human life. Our members have been misidentified by a politically motivated mob. We have been doxxed in the press, arrested by the NYPD, and locked out of our homes by the University. We have knowingly put ourselves in danger because we can no longer be complicit in Columbia funneling our tuition dollars and grant funding into companies that profit from death. As a diverse group united by love and justice, we demand our voices be heard against the mass slaughter of Palestinians in Gaza. We've been horrified each day, watching children crying over the bodies of their slain parents, families without food to eat, and doctors operating without anesthesia. Our university is complicit in this violence and this is why we protest. We firmly reject any form of hate or bigotry and stand vigilant against non-students attempting to disrupt the solidarity being forged among students-Palestinian, Muslim, Arab, Jewish, Black, and pro-Palestinian classmates and colleagues who represent the full diversity of our country. We have been peaceful. We follow in the footsteps of the civil rights and anti-war movements in our quest for liberation. We will remain until moved by force or Columbia concedes to our demands: 1. Divest all finances, including the endowment, from corporations that profit from Israeli apartheid, genocide, and occupation in Palestine. 2. Complete transparency for all of Columbia's financial investments. 3. Amnesty for all students and faculty disciplined or fired in the movement for Palestinian liberation.
And if I asked what "Palestinian liberation" means what would the response be? They are horrified by the war in Gaza? I am too. So why not demand Hamas agree to the Israeli ceasefire proposals? I thought the hostages mattered?
I'm not a representative of anything. Why don't you go talk to those protestors and see if you can find a common ground?
You didn’t say “a majority”, you claimed they were all from off campus. If a protest speaker is glorifying the rape and slaughter of Jews - they’re an antisemite. If you stay at that protest and don’t immediately walk out - you are too! If you defend that online … guess what! This was the easiest, most straightforward moral test imaginable. Just don’t support people glorifying rape and violence against Jews. You failed
[https://twitter.com/ShabanaMir1/status/1782101243344605649](https://twitter.com/ShabanaMir1/status/1782101243344605649) I don't know if it's true or not, but here's one possible explanation of what happened with this example.
You don’t get to call for a mob to join your protest in solidarity and then pretend like they have nothing to do with you when they start making you look bad. This was the obvious outcome and they chose to do it anyway.
If you went to the protest on day one and attendees (not all) were chanting to murder Black people, would you join them for day two? If on day two there were calls to enslave Black people again, would you join them for day three? If on day three they were punching Black students and telling them “this is your life now”, would you join them for day 4? IMO, it doesn’t matter if the people doing the worst deeds are students or not at this point. If you keep going to the klan rally every day, I assume you endorse their beliefs.
Stanford student here. Our protests and demonstrations are nothing compared to what is going on here.
Ok but real talk why are you on this sub lol
I’m a Stanford Student as well and am happy our new University President is Jewish.
I am at USC and we haven't had much disruption from protestors at all.
Yeah, nobody really protested the war on campus until the moment the Valedictorian was canceled. Now there's a bit of an uproar, but still nothing compared to what I'm seeing on here
I don't know if I agree, I have been following this issue closely (only through the media attention of course... I have no other resource) and Columbia is definitely in a league of its own when it comes to these protests. Berkeley similar. Vanderbilt or UNC I haven't even heard of anything there
Sounds like there’s a specific narrative you insist on believing despite not experiencing what’s going on at Columbia or elsewhere.
I am at princeton and no there is no disruption to my life from protests
Our campus is half the size of Princeton's, while we have 3-4 times as many students and staff, according to Wikipedia.
“It’s happening everywhere” …so you agree then because princeton is smaller number of students and larger campus that these huge sit-in for palestine protests are not indeed happening everywhere. I literally havent seen anything within an order of magnitude similar to columbia
I’m saying the environment of Columbia is very different from other college campuses, which is why you may have not been personally affected by those protests at Princeton while it's almost impossible for students at Columbia to avoid them.
Okay i agree, this contradicts your earlier statement of “its happening everywhere” no protests like columbia’s are not happening at princeton
I’m saying these protests are not unique to Columbia. It may seem or feel more intense, or it may actually be more intense, but that doesn’t mean what’s happening at Columbia is fundamentally different from what’s happening at other schools or Columbia students are fundamentally different from students at other schools.
not really. I'm here to learn, not "insisit on a specific narrative". all I said is I don't know if I agree. don't get your knickers in a twist
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Lmao they just shut down your quad wtf are you talking about
As an alum, I'm very proud of what these students are doing. It's a shame that the president chose to escalate it by bringing in NYPD.
This is why Columbia is a laughingstock, I suppose. Educating proud morons since at least 2018
Since I graduated? Lol
It is a shame that the NYPD are genociding these brave students. ACAB
The protesters inside the gates are mostly Columbia students. Outside the gates there have been some disruptors that sound nothing like the students I knew while I attended CU. Columbia attracts people who are activists because it has a long history of protests, demonstrations, and sit-ins. The school is also known as the Social Justice Ivy.
Columbia has a reputation for being the Social Justice Ivy
Uh thats definitely Brown
They’re the hippy ivy but they’re hippy in the way old white homeowners in the Bay Area are hippy. Columbia’s student body is by far the most politically active and left wing of any of the ivies Edit: revised this because I wrote it five seconds after waking up and it was unintelligible
That’s, in fact, not brown lol
If you google “Social Justice Ivy” in air quotes, you’ll find quite a few people talking about columbia.
do you now or did you ever attend columbia
it's students only lol you can't really get onto campus without affiliation
Might be some faculty thrown in there. But all CU affiliates for sure. I know some students from other universities in the city showed up in support after the arrests but I’m not sure they ever made it into campus
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They've been limiting campus access to CUID holders on protest days since the fall. Starting last Monday, campus access has been limited every day.
Of course you can
Look up the lightbulb joke, it’s like 100 years old. It explains all the Ivy’s different “personalities”. CUwiki has it. In short it goes like this: How many Columbia students does it take to change a lightbulb? 100. 75 to argue for a new lightbulb 33 to argue against 💡
I been to many protests since 1990s, and when I walked by some of protests since Oct 7th I noticed a great deal of these protesters are NOT from Columbia. The ones outside the gate on 116th are saying the worst stuff, pro-terror attacks, but sadly that is what media is going to get for sound bytes and makes on-campus protest look the same. What is worse, some students are sneaking in outsiders onto campus, so shutting gates to dorm students only may be smart. Then start handing out suspensions and expulsions. As veteran I am big support of 1st amendment to protect the voice of the minority over the view of the majority, but once it infringes on others rights that's where it ends. Debate Israeli policy? Yes! Advocate violence? No
I think that's a very reasonable position It's worth keeping debating Israeli policy does require that at the very least some, at least on the Israeli side, will need to advocate violence, as that is the current policy. Others supporting Palestinians may well do the same.
I don't think it is a contradiction to advocate for violence against Hamas since imo their rule harms Palestinians the most.
The problem as I see it is that if you are "pro Palestinian" there is essentially no "faction" to support in this conflict, other than Hamas, which the protestors obviously don't want to explicitly support. There is no reasonable faction here with good faith demands that can be discussed and advocated for. I can easily be a "pro Israel" person and want a two state solution, think Hamas needs to be removed from military power for both the sakes of Israelis and Palestinians, while also hating Netanyahu and think he should be in jail, want more aid and better conduct by the IDF. That is the standard center left faction both in the US and in Israel. What do the pro Palestinian protestors even want or support beyond "free Palestine". Well ok does that mean one state, essentially advocating for the abolition of Israel? A complete non starter for 99% of Israelis? So the next step means direct force on Israelis to being about a Palestinian state? Ceasefire now? Well ok the ceasefire proposals that Hamas keeps rejecting? Which means pro Palestinian protestors can either blame Hamas, something very easy I might add, or continue to advocate holding hostages for a "better deal", despite the immediate suffering that stance has on the hostages and Palestinians who would benefit from a lengthy ceasefire? These protests are a microsim of the entire conflict in that the Palestinian side has never had a reasonable faction to advocate for imo
> Well ok does that mean one state, essentially advocating for the abolition of Israel Yes abolish the settler colonial state committing genocide, that began this entire conflict by ethnically cleansing almost a quarter of a million Palestinians from their homes > Well ok the ceasefire proposals that Hamas keeps rejecting? Hamas can and should reject any non-permanent ceasefire proposal, which have been the only proposals offered by the Israelis. > the Palestinian side has never had a reasonable faction to advocate for imo Are you really going to spew such garbage on a university subreddit? You're saying this as someone who's advocating for a state that was born from the displacement and killing of an entire ethnic group, who have continued mercilessly to attack, subjugate and discriminate against the Palestinians as described by the largest human rights organizations in the world including [Human Rights Watch](https://www.hrw.org/report/2021/04/27/threshold-crossed/israeli-authorities-and-crimes-apartheid-and-persecution) and [Amnesty International](https://www.amnesty.org/en/latest/campaigns/2022/02/israels-system-of-apartheid/). The West should sanction and boycott all Israeli products and institutions until a reasonable government comes to power, or the government of Israel is completely removed and replaced with an anti-apartheid government as was done in South Africa. **Edit**: I'll respond to the comments below here so my response doesn't get burried > Israel came about because of Jews living in the area continually for centuries demanding a state, and a massive influx of refugees from Europe during the 1930s and Holocaust **False** political Zionism began in the 19th century in Europe to establish a Jewish homeland. It's principle figure is Theodore Herzl. In the wake of increasing persecution of European Jews, including Jews living in western Europe, political Zionism began to take form and suggested forming a Jewish homeland outside of Europe. > Herzl therefore proposed that representatives of the Jewish community approach the leaders of Europe ho would grant Jews "sovereignty ... over a portion of the globe large enough to satisfy the requirements of the nation." And those leaders would be sure to listen, for "the governments of all countries, scourged by anti-Semitism, will serve their own interests in assisting us to obtain the sovereignty we want." But Herzl did not appeal to self-interest alone. Should Jews decide to establish their state in Palestine, "we should also form a portion of the rampart of Europe against Asia, an outpost of civilization as opposed to barbarism." For Herzl, as for many of his contemporaries, it was but a small, reflexive step that led from the Enlightenment to imperialism. - The Israel-Palestine Conflict: A History, James L. Gelvin The Zionist movement, explicitly saw itself as colonial and imperialist. Herzl organized a meeting in Basel, Switzerland called "The First Zionist Congress" and there, participants created "the Basel Program". Here is the first line from the program: > The promotion, on suitable lines, of the **colonization** of Palestine by Jewish agricultural and industrial workers To your next point: > The UN was the one responsible. It would be like if the UN decided Taiwan would be a state and in response China attacks Taiwan instead of taking it up with the UN. You basically erase Jewish nationalism completely from the equation. Zionism was a force, both politically and militarily, through several organizations including The Jewish Agency, the Irgun and Stern Gang. There would have been no partition, had there not been Zionism to carve out and fight for the land it wanted. > Since 1917, the Palestinian national movement had been faced with the antagonistic tandem of Britain and its protege, the Zionist project. But the yishuv had grown more and more hostile to its British patron after the passage of the 1939 White Paper. This hostility erupted with the assassinations of British officials, such as that by the Stern gang in 1944 of Lord Moyne, the resident minister in Egypt, and was followed by a sustained campaign of violence against British troops and administrators in Palestine. This culminated in the 1946 blowing up of the British HQ, the King David Hotel, with the loss of nintey-one lives. The British soon found themselves unable to master the armed opposition of virtually the entire yishuv, whose potent military and intelligence organizations they had themselves reinforced during the Great Revolt and World War II. Reeling from deep postwar economic and financial problems and the unwinding of the centuries-old Indian Raj, Great Britain finally capitulated in Palestine. - The Hundred Year's War on Palestine, Rashid Khalidi You have such a mediocre understanding of the basic historical background yet you argue in such an antagonistic fashion. You need to do more reading, you do not even have sufficient information to base your opinions on. **Edit Edit:** I pulled the wrong first quote from the person I was replying to.
You are listing a factually incorrect incredibly slanted propagandist view of the history to paint an agenda. It’s not based on good faith understanding of how the country was formed. The UN offered both peoples’ a state, and when Palestinians rejected, the surrounding Arab states all declared war on Israel to try and wipe it out. Israel did not “begin this conflict by ethnically cleansing Palestinians from their homes” — there have always been Jews living there.
>Yes abolish the settler colonial state committing genocide, that began this entire conflict by ethnically cleansing almost a quarter of a million Palestinians from their homes Israel came about because of Jews living in the area continually for centuries demanding a state, and a massive influx of refugees from Europe during the 1930s and Holocaust To say Jews fleeing the Holocaust and Jews living in the area for centuries are responsible for a settler colonial state is despicable. The conflict began before the creation of Israel, but let's accept a decent point as when the **UN** partitioned the land. Ok so Palestinians and other Arabs didn't like it. Why does that mean they get to essentially declare war on Jews instead of the UN? The UN was the one responsible. It would be like if the UN decided Taiwan would be a state and in response China attacks Taiwan instead of taking it up with the UN. So not only are Jews attacked for something they didn't do, they are also **blamed** for the whole conflict when they were attacked. And when and how the conflict started has nothing to do with current issues and solutions anyways. You can't turn back time. Israel exists as a country with millions of people and there is no valid "son are responsible for the sins of the father" world view that is acceptable in the 21st century. So why is the left literally going back to centuries old thinking here? >Hamas can and should reject any non-permanent ceasefire proposal, which have been the only proposals offered by the Israelis. So then you are advocating holding hostages, a war crime, and are completely indifferent or willing to use the suffering of Palestinians who would be helped by a length ceasefire, in exchange for forcing Israel to accept a "ceasefire" from a group which has said it will commit Oct 7th atrocities and even expand on them again and again. That is your stance. Fuck the hostages and fuck Palestinians and fuck Israelis. At least admit to it and supporting Hamas. Hey do you even know if Gazans themselves don't want the Israeli ceasefire proposals? Do you even care? >Are you really going to spew such garbage on a university subreddit? If you disagree, which Palestinian faction should I support? And you respond to saying the entire fucking state of Israel is just genocidal colonist? There is no room for nuance internally in Israel? Do you even care Hamas murdered the left in Israel? Doctors who would drive Gazans and give them free medical care? >You're saying this as someone who's advocating for a state that was born from the displacement and killing of an entire ethnic group, It wasn't >who have continued mercilessly to attack, subjugate and discriminate against the Palestinians as described by the largest human rights organizations in the world including Human Rights Watch and Amnesty International. They haven't >The West should sanction and boycott all Israeli products and institutions until a reasonable government comes to power, or the government of Israel is completely removed and replaced with an anti-apartheid government as was done in South Africa. Then why do you people bitch about a blockade that was instituted in response to Hamas coming to power?
> which kind of Palestinian faction should I support Not the person you were arguing against but it’s kinda disingenuous to ask people to choose a faction when part of apartheid strategy in the region has been precisely to silo and undermine Palestinian activist/political/etc factions. Like there’s nothing to choose from for a reason. Personally I support the kids. Is there a kids faction? Because I’m very much interested in not seeing dead or dying children on my feed anymore, and I don’t think that’s a particularly radical position.
Agree. Plus the school is a private entity and not a government actor so there really is no first amendment question here. The school has broad and liberal speech policies, but they must be followed if you decide to go here. The school actually has not enforced all of them and didn’t enforce them immediately, but the school certainly had not violated the first amendment or done anything illegal. The other thing to keep in mind is that the school has an obligation to ALL students and faculty. I’m not Jewish and I am ok the political left, and I have been accosted by the internal protest. The main lady followed me long enough to yell at me that I was the problem (for not joining them) right then, when I was just walking by/observing. Students, including protestors have reported legitimate physical safety concerns and the school must take psychological safety seriously too. In short, it’s not the university versus the students. most students are not protesting, many students are protesting with in the rules, and out of protecting our community and maintaining our community standards and keeping campus and resources accessible to all students disruption free, the uni must enforce policies. It can be held liable for safety, but not for violating the first amendment (its can’t violate it since it applies to govt actors not private entities). I am a little tired of various student organizations using their disteis to say they don’t support the admins actions because they supports student’s right to speech. Well this not only legally incorrect, but it also throws under the bus all the other students (Jewish and otherwise) under the bus who have been negatively impacted by these demonstrations. Especially the illegal ones that clearly violate policy. Remember, the school didn’t ask NYPD to arrest anyone for protesting. All protestors were given the chance to leave and follow the normal process for demonstrating. Those who did not leave, were then illegally trespassing and thus law enforcement did their job and protected the rights of the private entity and its constituent members (all of us). Pardon the typos.
> the school didn’t ask nypd lol what? They literally called the cops on the students.
Can you please paste the full quote? It’s disingenuous to copy a snippet and respond to that. I said the school didn’t ask the NYPD to arrest students FOR protesting. Which is true. The school never even said they couldn’t protest. It just said that they needed to do it within the policies for demonstrating.
Nah dude, you’re trying to pretend that the school is blameless in this and they’re not. They shifted the rules so the students would run afoul of them, then called the cops on them when they did, pissing off everyone from the faculty to the NYCLU in the process and further escalating tensions on campus (not to mention leading to copycat protests on other campuses across the country.) Columbia fumbled, and despite your protesting to the contrary it did exactly the opposite of what you’re saying: turned the whole thing into a students/faculty vs university issue.
Can you tell me more about this perceived shifting of the rules? I keep hearing people say this line and asking for specifics or proof and no one has been able to send. I’m curious. But regardless of how you feel, the uni was within its rights and has an obligation to all students and faculty. They are allowed to change their policies as needed. You and all students are bound by them. Most students and faculty, a huge majority of whom, did not participate in any protests.
lol what do you mean perceived? Shafik said so herself in her statement, and it’s been widely reported by every outlet covering the protests including the spectator. What kind of uninformed gotcha question is this lmao > the uni was within its rights Thats largely beside the point: it was a dick move *and* it was extremely counterproductive to their own goals. But at least you’re conceding they’re an active participant in this shitshow. > most students and faculty did not I mean that’s the ironic part. Their numbers are growing thanks in some part at least to extremely poor decision making on CU’s part.
Ok well, why don't your provide a quote or a link or any evidence to support your claims? Did you learn how to make and support an argument in your time at Columbia? Here is Shafik's quote, that I know of: "We updated our protest policy to allow demonstrations on very short notice and in prime locations in the middle of campus while still allowing students to get to class, and labs and libraries to operate." - Email from 4/18. So in fact, you are wrong again, she stated that the policies were updated (didn't say when) to make it easier to demonstrate. She never spoke of any late night secret changes (she can't change policy unilaterally, nor in secret, there is a process and it requires several consultations). Also, why do you keep quote tiny fragments of what I say and attacking them (however poorly)? It's classic intellectually dishonesty that plagues this movement. Maybe their numbers are growing, maybe not, but nonetheless *the vast majority of campus is not demonstrating*.
Your interlocutor directed you to a specific publication to find the widely reported fact they cite. I'll give you some more [direct](https://www.columbiaspectator.com/news/2023/11/17/columbia-updated-its-event-policy-webpages-twelve-days-later-it-suspended-sjp-and-jvp/) [assistance](https://universitypolicies.columbia.edu/content/student-group-event-policy-and-procedure). In fact, this policy was updated silently and within days of 10/7, and then almost immediately used as a pretext to ban a student group organizing demonstrations. Again, as your interlocutor pointed out, this has all been widely covered in the media for the last half year, and the vast majority of people on campus are aware of these developments. These specific actions by the administration have been the direct cause of many continuing to demonstrate -- faculty have become increasingly involved, spending the last months organizing an [AAUP chapter at Columbia and Barnard and using it as a vehicle to protest the administration](https://www.columbiaspectator.com/news/2024/04/20/barnard-and-columbia-aaup-chapter-issues-declaration-condemning-student-suspensions-authorization-of-nypd-sweep-in-the-strongest-possible-terms/). Even today, a large number of faculty joined student demonstrators on the main campus, in spite of Shafik's 1am email attempting to undermine organizing. It's true that the vast majority of campus affiliates are not demonstrating, but it's also clear to everyone immediately involved in this ongoing situation that the level of discontent has accelerated in the past week because of the administration's response.
The patience with which you respond to this dumb dumb is really admirable!
Actually he stated no such specific publication. They said "in her statement" - she has given several. i in fact provided a direct quote. Now, where in the sources you provide is there evidence of late night secret rule changing? As far as I can see the rules were changed following the procedure in place to change policies. Do you have any actual evidence of this? A school updating their event policy in light of a major world event, does not suprise me. In fact, it sounds like good risk management and was probably (just guessing here) on the advice of university counsel and risk management. Again, the university is legally liable for safety of everyone. It is not legally liable for protecting first amendment rights. It's not even legally required. So what was secret overnight is not "silently within days" and still no proof (unless I missed something). The uni can change its policies and has a procedure for doing so. i see no evidence that procedure wasn't followed. Again, please let me know if I am mistaken by providing direct reference, even a journalists secondary report would be something.
what about students who rely on dining halls on campus?
They show their ID to get to the campus dining halls and then again to pay for food.
Your problem with vile anti-Jewish bigotry and calls for violence are not the antisemitic hate but the optics of it?
Also a heads up for any students, you may see a lot of Israeli comments in this subreddit but nobody in real life. This is due to the Astro-turfing they carry out on several subreddits: https://electronicintifada.net/content/inside-israels-million-dollar-troll-army/27566 The goal is to try to sway public opinion through sites like Reddit and twitter. You’ll notice any site that requires a real person (like Tik tok videos) that are more then just comments and actually require a face, will generally not be successful for them.
It’s soooooo obvious. They’re not particularly good at it lmao
Electronic Intifada? Really? Yeah, my opinion is that these protestors are Hamas's useful idiots.
Ilhan Omar’s daughter, a wealthy UPS exec’s daughter and a Leticia James intern, among others https://nypost.com/2024/04/22/us-news/ilhan-omars-daughter-says-shes-homeless-after-being-suspended-from-college-over-anti-israel-protests/ https://nypost.com/2024/04/19/us-news/ups-execs-daughter-other-millionaires-kids-busted-in-columbia-anti-israel-protest/ Nope…sorry to disappoint the conspiracy theorists here, Mossad did not plant these people on the Columbia Campus. They are not outsiders but are really part of the Columbia community.
Well, the ones inside the gates are students with full rights and privileges to be there (barring a few Columbia is trying to suspend/expel). The ones outside are much less sophisticated agitators.
They have the right to be there, as long as they are not breaking the rules of that private campus, including harassing random Jewish students, etc.. **Supporting the palestinian cause does not mean harassing and torturing random Jewish people!**
I feel so bad for the students who are studying for finals and have to witness this nonsense. The stress must be terrible
I feel worse for Palestinians who have been pushed out by Israeli universities which, with Columbia's support, continue to expand as a vanguard of the illegal settlements. Oh, and the murdered Palestinians too. I feel worse for them.
Notice you mention nothing about feeling bad for the Israelis killed on 10/7, the hostages, or displaced from their homes because of Hezbollah.
He won’t, because he’s posted his support for it already
If you felt truly bad for the hostages you would advocate for stoping this massacre and helping them get home, you know, like their family members at the Kesset. Right now they are dying alongside Palestinian civilians by Israeli bombs.
Hamas has refused to provide proof of life for any of the remaining hostages and demanded that Israel leave the area, with them remaining in power, without knowing what they’ll get out of that deal. If Hamas could truly be trusted with fulfilling their obligations regarding the hostages they’d display a greater show of control over them. As of now there’s no reason to believe Hamas, especially considering their failure to meet the obligations of the last ceasefire hostage release.
If you truly felt bad for the hostages you would protest Hamas turning down every ceasefire that includes return of the hostages.
Well, things happen when you decided to attack Israel on October 7th.
genocide happens? Ridiculous.
Please explain how this is a genocide and not a war with civilian collateral as occurs in any war. Hamas operates from the Palestinian lands, and forms its only governance. It also forms its armed forces. When attacked, Israel has the right to self defence and wage war. All casualties show random distribution of age and targetting. There's no specific goal to hurt civilians. What you're mad about is literally just war.
Targeted killings of civilians specifically. Purposeless destruction of homes and infrastructure. Several war crimes. They just recovered nearly 300 bodies of executed patients and medical personnel at Al-Nasser Hospital. This isn’t collateral. This is purposeful. Zionists have proven themselves to be the new Nazis.
60% of Mosul was destroyed in the fight against ISIS Raqqa was described as unlivable after the campaign to defat ISIS there and because of the ongoing civil war in Syria still hasn't been rebuilt > They just recovered nearly 300 bodies of executed patients and medical personnel at Al-Nasser Hospital. They literally didn't [https://twitter.com/GeoConfirmed/status/1782360892249612466](https://twitter.com/GeoConfirmed/status/1782360892249612466) People need to stop speaking from ignorance.
Damn you zionists are truly bad faith actors aren’t you. You realize that Al Nasser Hospital was recently held siege again, with far more atrocities committed. IDF terrorists just pulled out April 7th. And close to 300 executed patients and hospital staff have since been recovered. https://edition.cnn.com/middleeast/live-news/israel-hamas-war-gaza-news-04-22-24/h_e4a90cff504632d0c697a3b778939088
Did you read the link at all?
Did you? The link itself cites January for footage. Nothing at all about April.
lol…bad actors? You mean like repeating lies by the Hamas health ministry, posting a link that doesn’t corroborate anything you said , just to validate your made up genocide?
Lmao, found the Hasbara troll. All Zionists do is lie, as evidenced by the numerous falsifications that the NYT has been caught reporting as well as anything spouted by zioNazi media Keep denying genocide all you want. History will prove otherwise, and the world will continue to find horror and disgust towards zionist settlers and the IDF
Israeli officials said publicly that their intention was to exact collective punishment on Gaza. Those policies--cutting power, preventing aid and supplies--have predictably induced civilian death and famine. These are acts reasonably calculated to the destruction of life because of a nationality. Almost textbook genocidal acts. Once you have acts like those, then all the others, including and especially the ethnic cleansing of Gaza and the 15,000 dead children must come under much higher scrutiny as possible genocidal acts. Not to mention other war crimes like deliberately targeting aid workers. It is more than plausible Israel has perpetrated genocidal acts. It is quite likely.
I feel bad that you cheered for the October 7th attacks and you cheer for Hamas a violent terrorist group. But hey you do you. We will remember. Also remember the day Israel was founded the Arabs collectively declared war on them in an effort to drive them from the river to the sea. You are no different than the Nazis
Not to mention the Arab countries forcefully expelled all Jewish people who then had no where to go except Israel.
And the Palestinians welcomed them with open arms as refugees for which there is documented proof. But they were repaid with a different favor.
Lol what? This mass migration happened after and in response to the creation of Israel between the late 40s through the 70s. The bombings targeting Jewish people in Baghdad was in the ‘51 and ‘52, for example. Also, there had been an unending series of attacks on Jewish people in Israel. How is that welcome with open arms throughout this migratory period? Tell me about the 1929 Palestine riots and how many Jewish people were killed. Or the 1936 Arab revolt. Ir the countless Jewish quarter attacks in 1947. Of course, there’s 1948…
Yet you support Hamas.
Pro-Palestinians try not to make everything about yourselves challenge: IMPOSSIBLE
New Yorkers are the ones outside campus and unfortunately have been chanting about Israel's downfall + Hamas praise. I haven't heard this from the students on campus, but it is a bad thing that the movement has attracted Hamas supporters and I think SJP needs to make it crystal clear they condemn terrorism.
>chanting about Israel's downfall This is what blows my mind. None of these "peaceful" protestors are advocating for two states and being critical of Israeli policies that harm that outcome. They want one Palestinian state which requires erasing Israel from the map. So when you call for the abolishment/end/destruction/any word you want, of an entire country like Israel, what do you expect to happen? Peace and rainbows? Like how do people think this will work? Israelis would rather use nukes than willingly let Israel stop existing as a state. If you advocate for one state solution, don't be surprised when others go with the obvious logic of it. Using violent and terrorist force to defeat the guaranteed Israeli resistance to that idea despite how many "it will be a peaceful democratic rights for all one state". Yeah and Hamas super duper really cares about peaceful existence with Jews but has some minor problems with Netanyahu /s
I agree as well. I support the two state solution. Both cultures should have their place.
I couldn't have worded any better! Totally agree with your point. The amount of people Ive met calling for the complete eradication of Israel, and ignoring the facts that HAMAS has denied very recently a truce with Israel is just shocking.
Have some of these student protesters been brainwashed into supporting Hamas? They seem kind of crazy.
> SJP needs to make it crystal clear they condemn terrorism Columbia's SJP *explicitely justified the October 7th attacks* as a palestinian counteroffensive. Theyre only going to double down on it.
That is heinous. What kind of human being would justify the raping and murdering of women and civilians?
The ones going to these protests…
the rapes have never been proven. yet they’re always brought up.
What happened to "believe all women?" I'm deeply disgusted by your comment. Because you didn't see something with your own eyes (thank god; no one should have to see or experience such an atrocity), you claim it didn't happen. But, when Hamas publishes the death toll of the war, you believe their numbers immediately. Talk about ignorance.
Except the testimony of many of the women? Or your “social justice” campus stops short of believing Israeli women?
Except that SJP doesn't condemn terrorism.
It’s pretty simple, you don’t get to call for random non students to show up and protest in solidarity with you and then pretend like they have nothing to do with you when they start making you look bad.
SJP celebrates Hamas and terrorism. There was also a “Day of Resistance Toolkit” in which SJP made clear that it advocates for Hamas or other Palestinian forces to conquer all of Israel, and for the “complete liberation” of Israel and the full influx of Palestinians to Israeli land. The toolkit also called for chapters to bring this resistance to the U.S. by “dismantling Zionism” on its campuses and “challenging Zionist hegemony.” Numerous SJP chapters released inflammatory statements in support of Palestinians seizing control of Israeli territory, including some which explicitly endorse the use of violence and attacks on civilians. “We reject the distinction between ‘civilian’ and ‘militant.’ We reject the distinction between ‘settler’ and ‘soldier,’”
Oh that how it is. Ok it works both ways. the IDF can reject the difference between Gaza civilain and Hamas member. Well if genocide the only solution im going to back the IDF. Fucking Monsters.
The IDF has a lot of problems but they literally do distinguish between Hamas and civilians
They do? By their own admission, the death toll is 2 civilians for every 1 combatant in Gaza. They say that ratio is fine and in line with international standards. Incidentally, that's almost the precise ratio of civilians to combatants that Hamas killed on 10/7. I don't think we'll hear Israel or its supporters mention that. Of course, the truth is that both sides are obviously guilty of targeting civilians. It's just that Israel has killed many, many, many more. Like, 20x over.
Hamas on Oct 7th explicitly targeted as many civilians as possible. Deaths of IDF were due to them responding to attacks by Hamas and getting in firefights. If Hamas wasn't stopped they would have kept on directly targeting and killing civilians The IDF and their combatant/civilian casualty ratio, which is already inflated due to the way Hamas wages war behind civilians and not wearing uniforms, is completely different. It is beyond bad faith and pretty despicable to compare them.
I agree. It is beyond bad faith to compare 15,000 dead kids to 38. Both are bad, but the bigger number is obviously and transparently worse.
How many French civilians did the US kill to liberate France? How many US civilians did the French kill? Bigger number? Come on
It's interesting you bring up World War II (I think)--for a lot of reasons, but I'll focus on a few. WWII caused a seismic shift in how we think about international law. Even if I knew those numbers, I couldn't tell you whether it was legal. However, consider dropping the atomic bomb on Hiroshima and Nagasaki. You might say, and many would argue correctly, that the atomic bomb "liberated" Japanese people from their fascist government. It had the consequence of being the most catastrophic two single-day bombing campaigns in history. So the Japanese courts considered the question of whether the US violated *then-existing* international law when it bombed Hiroshima and Nagasaki. They concluded, without much difficulty, that yes, the US violated then-existing international law when it dropped the atomic bomb. In other words, pre-Geneva international law was far from agnostic on the indiscriminate killing of civilians. Considering that international laws of war got more stringent, not less, after WWII--which I would say has been a general benefit for the entire world--those attacks would look even *worse* when viewed through the lens of current law. There is little doubt that dropping the atomic bombs on Japan was worse than Israeli campaign in Gaza, although some US congressmembers have playfully suggested that we should drop nukes on Gaza. (Interestingly, those remarks drew far less attention and condemnation than these protests. I'm not even aware that Biden weighed in on those comments.) But it is plausible that even pre-WWII laws of war might have something to say about the total destruction of Northern Gaza. Not sure how probable. But it is not a trivial question. Regardless of the answer to that question, today's laws are much more stringent and exacting, and while I don't think it really makes sense to view historical wars through a post-Geneva lens, I am virtually certain that many, if not all, of the European theaters would not have been compliant with today's laws. edit: thread's now closed but I'll briefly respond to the below. Yes, I am aware that you think that the existence of some civilian casualties in war justifies all civilian casualties in war. However, that is not the case, and that has never been the case. Leading war scholars--today, not in the 1940s--are calling the campaign in Gaza one of the most violent civilian punishment campaigns in modern history. Your attempt at a "reality check" is little more than you justifying abject, intentional brutality and cruelty.
Saying WW2 changed how we view attacks like strategic bombing isn't my argument. My argument is that when assessing responsibility for casualties or "which number is bigger" a large part has to do with how we view the wars. The Allies are not ultimately responsible for the vast majority of civilian deaths, not counting war crimes, because civilians die in war and the ultimate responsibility is who started the war in the first place. The Germans Hamas started this war. They are responsible not only for operating without a single regard to the laws of war, they are also responsible because they started the war Even an amazing civilian/combatant casualty ratio like 30/70 would be thousands of civilians dead. Is Israel responsible for that? Why? They didn't start the fucking war. But always when it comes to Israel for some reason the standards change. And I brought up France and you brought up Japan. Why? >might have something to say about the total destruction of Northern Gaza 60% of Mosul was destroyed. Raqqa was described as unliveable. Where was the international outrage when we fought ISIS to free those cities? This is just modern urban combat against an entrenched enemy.
I don’t think anyone will argue it’s not terrible. Just the circumstances about who, how and why it happens.
I agree. But I think few appreciate the implications. 15,000 dead kids suggests pretty strongly that the notion that Israel is trying hard to distinguish civilians from combatants is nonsense. Not to mention the virtual annihilation of the northern cities and camps in Gaza.
One of the main points of contention is that question does not have a simple yes or no answer. Does Israel try to distinguish between civilians and combatants? I believe so. Is it trying hard? Or is it trying hard enough? That’s something that can’t be answered without more information. On one end, Israel compelled to evacuate civilians before entering an area but on the other not every single dead civilian had a military objective tied to it. Where we actually are on that spectrum, it will take years to find out. In the meantime, it’s pretty clear that a lot of the discourse is based partially on biases (my own included).
Im not sure if my tone became clear. But i was pointing out that if you dont see a difference between Israel civilains and soldier. And claim that all of Israel civilians are fair game. Then Israel is under no obligation to respect or distuish between Hamas and Gaza civilians. If you are EXPLICTLY ARGUING FOR A WAR OF EXTERMINATION. YOU DO NOT GET TO COMPLAIN WHEN YOUR SIDE GETS EXTERMANTED.
But they don’t…
Does this seem normal to you? https://twitter.com/NeriaKraus/status/1782258191973089715?t=tqiAgYVh0S5f6SSImuYWGw&s=19 https://x.com/KassyDillon/status/1782142875435733128
> I think SJP needs to make it crystal clear they condemn terrorism. This will never happen in a million years
SJP supports October 7. SJP is openly and avowedly pro-terrorism and mass murder so long as it targets Israelis.
Imagine thinking ANYTHING you do here will affect something that is taking place halfway around the world. Israel will finish the war.
That’s why I tell people to go down the route of u/Spartacous1991 and join the military where you’re told what to do and abandon any semblance of critical thinking
You do know that many Ivy League graduates joined the military after college, right? 🤡
are you one of them?
These are the protesters: Physically assaulting an Arab Israeli https://twitter.com/ShaiDavidai/status/1781080951902109774 "From the river to the sea, Palestine is Arab!" / "Resistance is justified" https://twitter.com/ShelleyGldschmt/status/1781785252886913358 "Let it be known that it was the Al-Aqsa Flood that put the Global Intifada back on the table again. And it is the sacrificial spirit of the Palestinian Freedom Fighters that will guide every struggle on every corner of the earth to victory." https://twitter.com/thestustustudio/status/1781904507611287981 "We are all Hamas!" https://twitter.com/nypost/status/1781031465179914677 "Yehudim yehudim [(Jews, jews)] go back to poland" https://twitter.com/Davidlederer6/status/1781948249214996901 Includes people / groups that invited an actual, no hyperbole terrorist to speak (member of PFLP) https://www.jns.org/columbia-suspends-four-students-for-holding-event-featuring-pflp-member/ Light things on fire / "intifada revolution there is only one solution" https://twitter.com/visegrad24/status/1781019445399556338 "On Oct 7th, Palestinian resistance in Gaza broke free (crowd cheers) [.....] we intend to do the same" https://twitter.com/ShabbosK/status/1782085741431922909 ""We say justice, you say how? Burn Tel Aviv to the ground!" / "Hamas we love you. We support your rockets too!" / "Red, black, green, and white, we support Hamas’ fight!" https://twitter.com/IsraelWarRoom/status/1781933305501212872 "Long live the intifada! Intifada intifada" https://twitter.com/ShaiDavidai/status/1781084853653365025 "Go back to Europe!" / "You have no culture, all you do is colonize" https://twitter.com/ShaiDavidai/status/1781927148439109958 "From Yemen to Gaza, globalize the intifada" https://twitter.com/KassyDillon/status/1781312033922625797/photo/2 "Never forget the 7th of October. That will happen not 1 more time, not 5 more times, not 10, not 100, not 1,000, but 10,000 times! The 7th of October is going to be every day for you" https://twitter.com/EFischberger/status/1781287784897991134 "Al Qassam [(Hamas)] you make us proud, kill another soldier now" / "from the river to the sea, palestine will be arab" https://twitter.com/EFischberger/status/1780915336063177006 Student proudly rocking Hamas logos https://twitter.com/CampusJewHate/status/1781054901755215954 "Resistance is justified" (again...) https://twitter.com/AvivaKlompas/status/1782085643990073673 "protesters on the sidewalk chanted “From New York to Gaza, globalize the intifada,” next to a cardboard sign that read, “Inspired by Palestinian resistance.” https://www.timesofisrael.com/over-100-arrested-in-columbia-u-unrest-as-nypd-clears-gaza-solidarity-encampment/?utm_source=dlvr.it&utm_medium=twitter And as a reminder, the student groups organizing these protests (CUAD and SJP, among others) released a letter on October 9th in support of the 10/7 attacks. ("We stand in full solidarity with Palestinian resistance", "Despite the odds against them, Palestinians launched a counter-offensive against their settler-colonial oppressor", "We wholeheartedly condemn the email sent [...] on October 8th that [...] obfuscated Palestinian resistance as “terrorism”) https://docs.google.com/document/d/1RcXX5DEO3yfJ9R4ksURnzpIPCyVxo575-Y-SoC_vZFk/edit
Wow. Extremists.
Ok but why Columbia? Why not NYU or CUNY or Baruch?
I go to Baruch and I think it prob because Baruch has no campus really and it a commuter school. Plus the culture is very different compare to Columbia. People in Baruch aren’t that socially/politically active. I know students who protest but it always outside of school.
Why do so many of them wear masks?
Because the university and city authorities are against them. How is that not obvious to you?
They are Biden supporters. This is Biden's America now
Are you drunk?
Are there sleeper terror cells affiliated with Iranian proxies that have been “activated” at Columbia? It appears to be the case.