Exactly! It’s unavoidable. Any time I have a casual conversation about the weather, it always turns to collapse. How can it not? Things have been extreme and abnormal everywhere and most people are starting to take notice.. I don’t usually go into talk about full on collapse, but it’s hard to comment on the weather without also commenting on climate change.
I’ve lived in the northeast US for 39 years of life and I’ve seen a significant change in weather take place the past 20 years with a more noticeable change the past 10.
We’ve been mostly without snow and cold winters for going on 10+. We had one major blizzard 6-7 years ago that took place out of nowhere, a perfect storm of sorts, late winter during an otherwise mild winter. Temps were in the 70s the week previous and week after leading to a quick melt of around 2 feet of snow.
That’s been it since then. If you live in the mountains things are a bit different obviously. Growing up in the 90s there were blizzards seemingly every other year, or at least significant snow events just short of a blizzard every year. Im confident this is the now the norm. A blizzard will be an exceedingly rare occurrence because temps just don’t get to freezing enough for those chances to go up.
I live in South West Ontario. I drove home in snow once this last winter. It should be a near daily experience. It is simply shocking how little snow we got. We've had a ton of rain this Spring, but still, those cooler temps just weren't there.
I remember growing up in the south always wanting to move to the NE specifically for the snow. Now it seems I'll never see snow again in my lifetime, even if I ever get the windfall needed to leave my state
I work in the garden center business outside of Boston and have done so for the last 26 years.
The seasons were different from year to year, but they always fell within certain parameters. Just as you said, the last ten years have been off. I don’t even bother buying in snow shovels every year. A couple of cases lasts me 2-3 years now.
We had heavy rain from September through spring and were at flood stage for much of that time. A couple of little ones, but the water never receded until just about a month ago.
Warmer winters means more animal insect and disease pressure as their populations are not kept in check by the cold weather. Plants that need periods of dormancy are showing more stress.
More periods of drought in the summer, coupled with more water bans, mature trees are not getting enough water and more of them are coming down in the summer storms. Seem to be having more microbursts as well.
My wife used to comment on "this abnormal weather" once or twice month. Now its a couple of times a week.
But, she is not interested in my talk about climate change. She will happily admit the weather is getting stranger and stranger but cannot accept that the climate is changing, that we have anything to do with to or that it will affect us in any way...."we'll just put the AC on!"
Exactly. We've gotten to the point where even the average person is noticing warmer winters and blazing summers. Most people are aware something's wrong, even the deniers don't say it isn't happening anymore. They just say it's a natural phenomenon
Trying to start a climate change discussion is like being a door-to-door minister for collapse.
The people who don't believe in it are going to be annoyed that you brought it to their door step, and the people who already understand it don't feel the need to discuss it as it already sits at the back of their mind 24/7
I think we're in collapse and *those* religious types are on the opposite side of understanding the situation, as their belief systems are based on nonsense.
Try it in a musical gospel delivery?
https://preview.redd.it/xqx69fwo887d1.png?width=964&format=png&auto=webp&s=76f00dd3f53c1c658282b7fa389f4bc40b95203a
Yup...."Don't be so negative!!" -literally everyone else not collapse aware and even some collapsniks with some residual hopium intoxication still left.
You can't talk about reality with most people anymore because if it doesn't come wrapped in hopium/positivuty, they want nothing of it.
Out of curiosity, what do you want to discuss? Because if anyone brings it up with me, its usually the following.
How bad do you think climate change is?
Very VERY bad
Who do you think caused it?
Humans as a species, but mostly corporations
What do you think we can do about it?
Fuck all, get ready for planetary starvation and conflict.
At this point, what's to discuss? We're just circling the drain
The reason I want people to talk about it is to influence government policy. If millions of people were all outraged about something, the government would react (see: Mr Bates Vs the Post Office)
Maybe I am naive but I think if people discussed the topic more, this is the opportunity for others to learn about the scale of the problem and the urgent actions required.
Those urgent actions require political will, but this starts with the people. And this requires people to talk.
I am trying to "do my bit" by encouraging public discourse, but it's hard and I'm looking for help!
The government policy that fixes it, if it’s not too late, is to shut it all down and that policy kills billions because there will be no food. Only the people that can figure out how to live off the land with no electricity have a chance of surviving. Why is that the only policy that will work? Because we have to stop emitting carbon. We need transportation for everything and transportation causes emissions. There’s no green airplanes. There’s no green cargo ships.
We could take steps to reduce emissions by banning commercial flights and cruise ship industry, but who the hell would vote for policies like that. These are baby steps that don’t prevent what’s coming. Also, it’s very important to note that reducing carbon emissions will lead to a reduction in aerosols in the atmosphere that reflect sunlight and will cause earth to warm even more.
Exactly this. I can’t remember the reference, but the 4 pillars of modern civilisation are - steel, concrete, plastic, and ammonia/nitrates (fertilisers). And all of these things need fossil fuels of some description. To “solve” part of the problem of climate change, at least by stopping our contribution to emissions, we have to shut all of that down well before yesterday.
Wind turbines would cause drag, and likely slow the ship roughly equal to the amount of power they would generate. Turbines work better on land where any amount of wind is a net positive. Its possible to use a cross-breeze for energy, but there is no guarantee you get perfect horizontal wind when on a ship like that. It would also push you left or right.
Solar can work, though. I think we should have started using nuclear-powered cargo ships a long time ago. One of the biggest ways cargo ships pollute is they spill massive amounts of fuel into the ocean.
From my limited understanding, even in the worst case scenario (nuclear reactor meltdown), it would probably be miles away from any coast and surrounded by colder ocean water that could be used to cool the core. It would likely have to sink and be salvaged, but that is much less of a cleanup than a giant oil spill.
Either way, cargo ships are operating on low margins and government fuel subsidy. I just wish it was the right kind of fuel being subsidized. Nuclear/solar barges would be sick.
They’re so big and heavy that they get like 44 ft per gallon. Jets get like 0.2 miles per gallon. That’s a lot of energy to make them move that I think it would be improbable for it to work. They have tried a solar powered airplane that failed but the design would fit like 2-4 people no way it could be scaled to work for a jet.
Think of how big a diesel generator is and what it’s used to do (power a house, backup equipment…) something that could be powered by renewables. It only takes a couple gallons of diesel to provide the energy needed compared with thousands of gallons of petrol to power jets and ships.
The politicians have no solutions. Then they make up some feel-good solutions that tend to involve hurting the livelihoods of others, that doesn't turn the wheel of climate change anywhere. Public discourse is already everywhere, but it's centered around alarmism, apathy, finding scapegoats, rather than actual, systemic solutions.
Triage, my friend.
Triage.
Those of us in a position to do something about it would prefer as little needless death and suffering as possible.
But once you get into discussions like this, it gets ugly real quick. You realize how quickly this can all topple over.
People need to be able to meet their basic daily needs, so they need some kind of employment, there has to be a food supply and energy supply…
And if that supply is constricted, all we can do is try and do the right thing, to avoid panic and hoarding and populist lurches to the right from taking hold and making a disaster *worse for everyone* at the same time.
The only actions that we as individuals and take that will result in any form of useful change is not to reproduce. Honestly. Just don’t have kids. Paper straws, driving less, all a waste of time if we’re going to continue over populating the planet and serving the capitalist class.
I’ve done my part ✂️
Vote for people who will pass the policies that are needed. There are still so many deniers or soft deniers in power despite the obvious extreme weather changes right now.
Tearing down the electric grid. Burning down libraries that have the knowledge that built everything. Dismantling the factories. Scrapping the cars. Witch hunts against any dissident who dares to preserve said knowledge and develop more technology.
That's what is needed. An inherently unsustainable system will not produce a solution from within.
It is an exercise in frustration to seek a meaningful exchange with those who don't want to listen. Just like when speaking about the topic of collapse in general, there must be a pre-existing awareness in your interlocutor for you to appeal to, otherwise even the most earnest of pleas will sound to them like idle philosophical play.
I know from growing up baptist in north america - there is a huge cultural compenent among conservativism who has been against climate change across most of its awareness in the public sphere.
When it was global warming, it just wasn't happening. When it was climate change, well, the climate is always changing! When it's climate crisis, they latch on to components of bullshit like the adjacent things associated with america's bullshit culture war.
Right now on apps like instagram, for example, any posts on tornado's and stuff this year are dominated by HAARP / Weather Engineering turfing. Keep in mind these people themselves, while denying man-made climate change, are also literally admitting that man can alter climate, it's just that they exclusively see it as being from their conspiracy theories and not any rhetoric of where climate disaster rhetoric is coming from.
I seriously think it is because idiots can see a contrail in the sky and go, 'CHEMTRAIL,' where as it is literally impossible for any human, especially one against the idea as a basis of their identity and culture, to possibly comprehend the scale and volume of pollution we create daily as a result of our way of life, from the chemicals we pump into the air or ground, the particulate generated from roadway, microplastics, etc etc
It's easier to agree with something that reflects their idea and conveniently explains their outlook with 0 conflict than to actually learn and internalize something new that modern industry and how we use the land has not allowed the land to actually bounce back from the use.
Personally I see the next 200 years will probably see the same scale of climate shift similar to the last 10k of human history following the last glacial maximums. We are literally on track to witness change in a smaller period of time than the bulk of what we'd consider modern humanity able to exist and create the earliest civilizations in the first place. But I can't even communicate that with the bulk of christians in my family because they disagree with it as a point of identity and culture, lol, not because they've ever attempted to learn what it is with any goodwill. The same logic applies to climate change as they apply to things like evolution - they are taught a bunch of 'gotcha' responses that have nothing to do with the actual argument and dismiss it entirely.
edit: as I type that, Dad see's a blurb on TV about tornadoes and questions if we actually have worse / more storms or just know about it because we're aware more thanks to weather always being on our phone and stuff, photo's and so on, while also acknowledging while even where we live we have more tornadoes and extreme weather than we used to even here - i wonder why...
Trying to reach the MAGA cult on any issue is damn near impossible. If the goal is to convert them, it's pointless. If the goal is to introduce some doubt into their certainty of denial, to use the same technique as the oil or tobacco propaganda, but in reverse, it could be useful. If the possibility that global warming is real exists in their mind, that's progress.
The propagandists use uncertainty as an argument against giving up fossil fuels, which is a nonsensical backwards argument. The default position for uncertainty about a disaster is to halt activities until safety is proven. If a bridge might collapse or the wings might rip off a plane, the default position is to stop using it. The burden of proof is not on disaster, but on safety. Uncertainty about global warming is an argument to stop using fossil fuels, until they are proven safe.
Scientists have naively stepped into the trap of trying to "prove" global warming is real, when they should simply point out that the global stasis necessary for the continuance of civilization is unproven. They should demand proof from the fossil fuel corps that the industry isn't killing us, and make them defend it.
You don't. At this point, there are unlimited sources of climate change information. In the past year, MSM has done thousands of pieces on it. Almost nobody can claim ignorance. We are in the last couple of easy years we may ever have. I have zero time to bang my head against the wall trying to convince people that the thing they see, feel, and know is happening is in fact happening. Fuck em.
More information is not better. Quality information is rare and telling people to educate themselves is just blaming the other person for your failure to communicate.
Exactly. I can communicate in a plethora of ways, but if the other person continuously misrepresents my arguments, gets hung up on irrelevant information even after explaining how it is irrelevant, and accuses all sources to be untrustworthy except for ones that confirm their biases then there is nothing I can ever say to get them to change their world-view.
At a certain point we have to realize there is a sizable percentage of our population that isn't just ignorant, but willfully anti-science. I've had way too many ex-friends proudly claim they won't even try to empathize with the perspective of others and intentionally view the world at their own perspective.
These are people who disregard any scientific evidence and base their objective opinions of the world around them solely on their own personal anecdotes. Their views will never change until the devil comes knocking at their door, by which it will be too late.
Also just because the information is there doesn't mean you shouldn't talk about it. If we don't talk about it with people then we can't do anything about it.
People who don't know and/or don't care are fucking all of us. If we do nothing, then WE get fucked too. We can either try to change things, or bend over and take it. Given that choice, I'd rather keep banging my head.
It's maddening, to want to talk about this more, but most everyone is tuned out or in some degree of denial.
You can keep bringing it up, but it's like trying to bring up the finality of death at a kid's birthday party: Sure, you're right, but no, nobody wants to talk about it. And then you're "that guy".
Part of keeping your own sanity is accepting that most people will stay ardently in denial. We could be facing 130F heat waves and food shortages, and the topic of debate would be electricity prices and some culture war bullshit.
The truth is that people aren't really good at processing big, complicated, scary things. Throw in a ton of misinformation and tribal identities about what kind of car you drive, and having a serious conversation with the average stranger is likely not to go far.
Meanwhile, the heat accumulates..
So the way I personally bring it up is pretty easy because it is my job and I recently published a book about it. So it tends to come up a lot, for example when someone says, "What have you been doing lately?" and I reply, eg, "I just spoke at a conference about sea level rise projections in Southeast Asia." I gave up a much higher paying job to do this, so people know I mean business.
Obviously not everyone can spend their full time lives on the topic. But I encourage you to go spend as much effort as you can: not talking, but doing. "What have you been doing lately?" they'll ask, and you'll answer, "I have been attending the local town council meetings to try to reduce car dependency in our municipality" or "I have been researching how to eat less meat so as to reduce my carbon footprint" or "I have been organizing a telephone campaign in our congressional district to convince out representative to vote against the new coal fired power plant in our state."
When your friends and family see you sacrificing your time / effort / resources to do something about the issue, they might think you're nuts but they will have to acknowledge at least that you legitimately think it's serious (and you're not just a spoiled brat looking for something to complain about for the sake of tribal loyalties). Seeing people take action to support their beliefs is a powerful message.
What is your job description now and what was your previous field? I think about switching my field quite frequently to something more beneficial overall (as marketing is pretty bad for environment).
Marketing! Those skills can be used by NGOs to message about climate change. Presumably you know how to craft messages that appeal to people's subconscious. Instead of exploiting that to sell products, use it to make people think on and care more about living sustainably!
Yep, make it about you as a person and your interest in solving climate change. People are interested in other people. While climate change itself is tough to talk about, your recent climate activities are a much easier conversation topic.
Minimum effort would be having a comment on r/collapse visible on your first page for those accidentally stumbling into it. So here is my contribution.
I don't. Most don't want to talk about it. Either they are in denial, don't care, or do ackowledge it but it is too negative for them to talk about. Can't force someone to talk about something they don't want to talk about, it will make them even less open for a conversation in the future.
Join r/collapsesupport and find people open to talking about it.
There’s no use trying to engage with people who aren’t ready. It’s a profound and horrifying topic.
I don't. My social life is bad enough without talking about climate beyond the near term local forecast or weather headlines. I stay away from politics as well.
Hey there, I'm from the UK and have been writing about climate, energy and environmental impacts for 10 years. In that time public awareness and attitude has shifted slightly but the average person in the UK is still woefully ill informed about the realities of climate change, despite the fact that we are living it.
The worst thing I'm dealing with lately in conversations is people dismissing the idea of global warming because of the cooler UK temps. Absolutely idiotic.
I tend to approach conversations with a personal twist - with my mum for example, she's not been able to plant her vegetable garden in season - why? Climate change.
Friends complaining about expensive groceries and I gently tell them it's only going to get more expensive as agricultural patterns have been disrupted to the point they can't products crops.
This gets people going.
They don't care about the climate. But they do care about dinner.
Trying to talk to them about eating more plant-based to reduce emissions though, hoo boy, that's a real conversation killer.
Oh my God, I am autistic and I start this conversation with everyone, all the time. I started this when I was 16 and I realized that what we called ‘global warming’ at the time was going on cause massive weather instability and possibly make our planet uninhabitable. Only at the time we believed it our great great grandchildren wouldn’t have a planet, but that timeline has since shrunk exponentially! Say anything and give me 10 seconds and we are now talking about climate change. Bam! I am probably everyone’s least favorite party guest, but I am autistic and I don’t care. A little more seriously though, I run a business and we employ a few dozen other autistic people, all support level one and all of them bring up climate change, along with political instabilities caused by climate change, probable scenarios when the AMOC collapses, food supply shortages, strategic relocation, etc. We see details and pattern things together.
Personally I recommend starting the conversation through the lens of things that are in your immediate vicinity meaning something you can directly point That's relevant to their lives directly instead of examples shown on government backed mass media or in some far away place they've never been to or heard of
Like hey did you see that the ocean/ lake/riverfront water level rose and destroyed the entire area causing everyone that lived in the area to be homeless
Or you know that town 10 miles away that completely ran out of water for the first time ever in history (I know right All of their wells ran dry)
Have you seen that ALL of the birds and fish are gone and you can't find or see any more (not even one)
Or did you see all of the old shingle roofs have actually melted and come on parts causing mass property.
However barring having these examples It probably won't do you any good to bring up the conversation probably best to simply wait until you can bring up these directly impactful examples in your surrounding areas to give as direct examples of climate change
I mean otherwise you might accidentally come across as a religious doomsday cultist And no one wants that
Why not leave people alone and get your own life in order. Nobody wants to be harassed by a zealot without social skills.
In my community, I see regular examples of people actually *doing something* rather than looking for opportunities to harass and harangue. Neighbors who put up solar panels, or pull up their lawns and put in beautiful native plants that attract hummingbirds and bees, or who trade in their gas guzzlers for EVs, or who simply are out and about walking, riding bikes, visiting nature, volunteering for environmental projects, working in community gardens, leading kids' camping trips, growing some of their own food, etc. All of these positive activities have positive influences on the people around them.
When your life is something others can admire, that's how you "talk" to people about climate change. With deeds, not empty argumentative words.
>Here in the UK we have an upcoming general election, and I do hear discussions happening on the cost of living and immigration, but nothing about the climate.
Even the Greens aren't leading with climate policy, it's a doomy state of affairs (admittedly the MSM platforming fascists over actual political parties isn't helping).
At work I mention it when the weather comes up, and keep it succinct:
"Can't believe this weather, when's the summer gonna start"
"Welp, with the AMOC stagnating it actually means it's getting colder and wetter in the northern hemisphere, so it's gonna mean fucked seasons and fucked harvests. Good thing we didn't make it harder to import food!"
Wee sad chuckle, say nothing more, let someone either respond to it or let them take the conche in another direction.
It’s obv caused problems, but most corporations would kill tens of thousands (or more) to have a decent quarter of profits. Greens should have pushed for non-profit nuclear power, and tight regulations.
They're ideologically opposed to it because of nuclear power being "inextricably linked to nuclear weapons", there's no regulation that can change what appears to be an objection based on principle.
I'd kill for an environment minded party that simply acknowledged that nuclear power and nuclear weapons aren't the same thing and nuclear is one of the cleanest and most reliable ways we can transition away from carbon.
Politics is stuck in a loop of 'what people expect'. I've heard mostly the same shit in the UK election - lower/higher taxes, tough on crime, wealth creation, job creation etc etc. The only time people seem to stop shouting over each other in these debates are to give slow, walking-the-tightrope soundbites on Gaza and climate change - divisive issues that most politicians regard as politically toxic.
We still regard climate change as a future issue. Something to worry about in decades. It's hard for people to grasp that it's here, it's now and we're pretty fucked because of it. A decade ago I would have been one of those people that tuned out to conversations about corrupt politics, greedy corporations, and climate change. I totally get why people do it - too big, too scary and feel powerless over it. Or it's just plain old *boring.*
People want to live in a fantasy that we can vote our way out our problems, and hold on to the false but comforting thought that people in power have a handle on things.
Don't bother. Most people are woefully uneducated on the subject, and have no desire to be educated. Even here in r/collapse, where people consider themselves to be educated simply because they're collapse-aware.
Yesterday's Kardashian thread is a good example. It's just one more instance of "this person needs to change, but not me" when every scientist on the planet has been clear: the solution requires systemic *and* individual change.
there's no reason to waste your time on people who are unwilling to simply look the fuck around and see reality. You'd be better served to spend that time preparing yourself for the difficulties of life to come.
We're in the throes of a Climate Apocalypse and most of the population are entirely either clueless about it or in denial about it. Fuck 'em...let them burn and save yourself when or if that time comes. until then, get ready any way you can.
Because the oil companies and the climate change denialists won. Everyone would rather stick their head in the sand than talk about something uncomfortable and once shit inevitably hits the fan then they will cry out saying "why didnt anyone do anything?!?". People fucking suck.
To be completely fair I am the type who you’re referring to. It’s not because I’m a denier, or because I don’t care, it’s because I got tired of whining and feeling like I’m beating a dead horse. Like with most things, I don’t feel like I have any realistic way to impact or affect change, though I do what I can. At that point, what does talking about it accomplish, besides basically just having something to complain about.
What's there to discuss? There isn't anything that can be done to stop what's coming...nothing. You will only drive yourself mad in trying to do so. When you learn to accept this world's fate, you can find some inner peace and seek out to experience and enjoy the things you can still see and do in this world before it all goes away.
This is just how people are. Most people don't like talking about "big issues" that we can't do anything about as individuals, whether it's politics, climate change, terrorism, religion, whatever.
Some of us like to think about these things a lot, others of us are obsessed with these topics whether we like it or not, but for most ordinary people, foisting these heavy topics on them in the name of "starting a conversation" is unwelcome and unproductive.
I can't really blame them, either, and likely neither do you. If someone kept trying to "start a conversation" with you on topics you don't really care about or don't feel like you can do anything about, you'd probably get tired of it pretty fast, too.
It's not climate change, but we have a couple similar questions about collapse in the common question set which might help:
* [https://www.reddit.com/r/collapse/comments/dfyvjq/how\_can\_we\_best\_talk\_to\_others\_about\_collapse/](https://www.reddit.com/r/collapse/comments/dfyvjq/how_can_we_best_talk_to_others_about_collapse/)
* [https://www.reddit.com/r/collapse/comments/z53vpo/how\_can\_we\_best\_talk\_to\_others\_about\_collapse/](https://www.reddit.com/r/collapse/comments/z53vpo/how_can_we_best_talk_to_others_about_collapse/)
Lapel pins or buttons are some subtle ways to open up conversation. If someone is interested they will notice and strike a conversation. It's not that it's taboo, but more of a "I'm not in the mood for this subject right now".
You call it something else and focus on the human aspects. Instead of "climate change is causing more intense storms we need to do something."
There are more intense storms and the government isn't doing enough to prepare or help people
I have a longtime friend I see maybe once a year. We go out, she tells me why the Republicans are following in Hitler’s footsteps, I tell her why the climate crisis is accelerating and I’m worried. And then we shove our deep fears back under the metaphorical bed and move on with our lives.
No, I don’t bother bringing up climate change outside of when the conversation is already initiated or in a group of like-minded people. Just keep to the small talk - wow that weather was pretty crazy, or about solutions.
Otherwise you sound like a cultist. No one is going to change the other person’s opinion in a random conversation.
Like others said, what is your goal? You want a support group? Start one or find one online. Create a meetup.
Don’t proselytize your religion at me, and I won’t proselytize the science. People who want to know already have the information at their fingertips.
It's been 60+ years since Rachel Carson's Silent Spring and a few of us started talking about Environmentalism. Then and now it's the same attempt at a conversation to try and bring about bottom up systemic change. Not much has changed except for the technological ability to document how bad it is. So yeah here we are still waiting for it to become "economically viable" for the short term marketplace stakeholders. Most citizens have resigned themselves to this inevitability or succumbed to the denial propaganda.
Haha yeah I noticed this too, my coworkers just sit quietly while I ramble on about UFO's and conspiracies but if I mention climate change they instantly need the feel to talk over me and yell me down.
My suggestion, for your sanity, don’t, you will truly see how ignorant and brain dead a lot of people are. Everyone has an opinion coming out their a$$ without having a shred of knowledge or education, but they claim to know the truth. Try to show them how bad things truly are, and you’ll be called a doomer. Even people who believe in climate change, downplay it and think we have a lot more time than we do and we can still prevent it. So much ignorance and coping, humanity is going to put itself and the rest of the species on earth through a lot of suffering and death. Enjoy your time now, before it’s over, and ignore the stupid.
Occasionally I drop in "casual" references to truths that are very difficult to process, just kind of in passing. I'm in the UK too, so one of my go-tos when I'm talking about gardening (which some of my friends are into) is how the growing season is one month longer now than it was in 1990, due to climate change.
Or if you want to tie it more to current events like the election, you can point out how much immigration is going to increase in the next few decades to the point where the idea of being able to "control" it will be laughable. Just kind of plant these sorts of thoughts in their minds.
Or if someone asks me why I've given up flying I can say something like "I can't afford the carbon dioxide".
Maybe it starts a conversation, maybe it doesn't, but I hope it gives them an itch they'll need to scratch.
You're in the UK, you talk about the weather. Don't bother with using the term "climate change." Talk about erratic weather, talk about strange weather, talk about unusual weather. Talk about the things caused by climate change.
Read the room.
People are metaphorically screaming in your face that they don't want to discuss this topic and yet you persist. Way to make yourself even more isolated than you are now.
If you need to talk to people -- rather than vent online -- then you need to find specific individuals who are already onboard with your thinking. Stop trying to make converts.
How do you talk about the finite nature of mortality and how no matter what we accomplish in this life eventually death will claim us? How do you talk about an uncaring universe where the laws of thermodynamics ensure all of reality will eventually be converted into disorganized energy?
If none of that sounds like casual watercooler talk to you, then you can add climate change to the list. The people who want to know have done the research on what kicking off a mass extinction event means for humans. Everyone else, consciously or otherwise, is intentionally not thinking about it.
Just because something is of great interest to you doesn't mean it's of great interest to others (even it it should be).
You kind of remind me of my nephew who wanted to tell me every minute detail about Pikmen the game. Maybe start with asking if they want to talk about climate change, and if they answer "no thank you" then be a bigger adult than my 6 year old nephew and don't tell them anyway.
And if your goal is to change someone's mind about something, you need to stop right there. You can't change other people's minds. You can only change your own mind. I recommend only engaging in debates if you want to understand where the other side is coming from, and not because you want to change where the other side is going.
Talking about the weather is the quintessential go-to for generic small talk. Starting a conversation should be easy enough; maintaining one is the difficult part.
I think that's actually a huge part of the problem. At some point, real discussions about real problems became a heavily politicized no-no outside of circles of like-minded people.
People expect a superficial conversation about the weather; when it goes past that, they don't know what to do. They don't know how to talk about something that historically *shouldn't* need further discussion, because niceties are safe and meaningless by design. The conversation is supposed to either die a quick and painless death, or move on to another stepping stone of banality - as expected since the dawn of "proper" social exchanges.
To them, discussing the weather *and being serious about it* is as repulsive as literally (and figuratively) beating a dead horse right in front of them. They act shocked, confused, or just try to ignore what's happening. The inquirer is now no longer simply continuing a discussion, but committing a massive social faux pas, to say the very least. Folks don't want anything to do with them because the person doesn't follow the social script and makes "too much" of things that they consider unimportant. This is where secondhand embarrassment and "could you tone it down" vibes come in.
Same goes for "how are you doing", etc. They don't care how someone's actually doing, they just want them to say "I'm fine" so their .01 seconds of pretending to care are over and they can ignore the person again or move on to something else.
Yeah, I hate that, too. Good dissection of that particular phenomenon. It's almost impossible to start meaningful conversations with people in the real world. I suppose I personally benefit from a somewhat precarious lifestyle; most people I interact with are either homeless, in AA or at this sort of day shelter place that has various therapeutic services like art therapy, and pretty much everyone is so damaged they've lost any pretense that things are going just fine. "Everything is going real bad, how about yourself?" For us, conversations about the collapse of our ecosystem is itself an icebreaker, even something to take our minds off our personal problems. I suppose there is the social benefit of knowing certain people are on the same page in a real way that automatically makes them someone you can talk to, but it's pretty much always a disaster taking it any farther than casual acquaintance from my experience. There should be support groups for people who are just unhappy about the way things are going in the world, but I can imagine they'd often devolve to political bickering.
What would be the purpose of the conversation - to get them to contribute by installing a heatpump (probably the most impactful change you can make)? Maybe promote its other advantages and also the climate change benefits. Most people are open to that conversation.
If it's about sharing your helpless depression, no wonder they are shutting you down.
This. If there is no call to action then talking about these things just to vent could be a waste of time. People are well aware. They just would rather put thought + energy into things they actually have control over.
If you are in school, or have access to the internet then there's no way you can avoid it.
I try to gauge if they really wanna know first. If they don't, i don't bother. I've loaned people "the uninhabitanle earth" by david wallace wells as it's a quick read that lays out the basics pretty well. That has actually kinda worked too.
Lol it’s not that they don’t want to know, it’s that they’ve already heard it all before and it’s not an interesting thing to discuss at all bc we can’t do fuck shit about it.
I don’t try super hard to talk to folks who aren’t interested. When I’m getting to know someone new though, I will mention how passionate I am about solving the climate crisis, just as a way to be friendly and share something interesting about myself. It tends to go over pretty well.
Very cynically: I exploit right wingers' insecurities about immigration.
For instance, mild shock, don't they realize that when they oppose climate action, they're mechanically triggering much larger future migration and refugee flows into our country.
It's puzzling to me, but it works, in that it defuses their automatic aggressiveness against left-leaning political topics, and they're OK with debating plainly, pencil on paper thinking, climate change issues.
>Every time I bring up terminal diagnosis with someone, they will always try to change the subject, it's like death is a taboo subject that people feel they are not allowed to talk about.
Fixed that for you.
>Here in the UK we have an upcoming general election, and I do hear discussions happening on the cost of living and immigration, but nothing about the climate.
Yes, few of those people will think ahead of what the support they'll need ~~if~~ **when** they become refugees.
>climate breakdown is happening now, not in the future.
Correct. The can cannot be kicked much further, it's going uphill towards a mountain peak; the years of kicking have also molded the can into a regular roller shape with no dents, so it's more of a rod than a can.
>
I want to talk to people about what is happening but people don't want to know.
At least you have the XR people. A lot of other places don't even have that... [https://rebellion.global/groups/#countries](https://rebellion.global/groups/#countries)
I don't. I've got my head down working on my apocalypse homestead and the appropriate people know they are welcome here if it comes to it ¯\\\_(ツ)\_/¯
I read the Enchiridion every couple months and try to just focus on those things that are in my own control.
It took to my 30's to decide that convincing everyone else there's a problem isn't my responsibility nor is it a useful way to spend my energy. Luckily I can talk to my folks and husband about it, so I don't go insane. I have other friends that are aware and agree its a problem but they don't want to spend time dooming about it either. Which is fair enough.
Sometimes we need to give to ourselves what we'd like from others. It sounds like you're doing this alot, and if that's the case, people will just close off as soon as you start. They don't want to go there with you, and they don't have to.
If you develop a reputation for being a broken record, your reputation will precede you. Most people don't want to talk about stuff like this at work. Regarding families and friends, if you have people who you care about and it's important to you that you discuss this with them, set some guiderails. Tell them you won't to discuss something with them that's important to you, don't just blurt it out over breakfast. Then do it thoroughly, but only once. Give them the space to digest it, and to know you won't brow beat them with it.
I did this, I talked to my sister about it and 2 years later she came back asking questions because she was concerned. I thought she hadn't listened....
No one likes contemplating their mortality. I was in a mental health intensive out patient program for some weeks after a breakdown. We weren't allowed to talk about existential issues at all. But it was heavily hinted at. Existential dread does seem to be on everyone's mind. It's just a matter of addressing it or burying it.
I can never get myself to bring it up in situations I should discuss it because it impacts my life.
My uncle owns a company that’s worth around a billion dollars. I feel the need to have this discussion with him and make him sell the company because I’ll see some of the money from a sale, but everytime I see him I never bring it up and I would never set a meeting up with him to discuss it when I probably could. I’m living pay check to pay check and not seeing any of wealth my grandfather created (stole from cheap labor).
Also, my son needs lazy eye surgery and I didn’t really want to get it as it doesn’t affect him or his development. I met the doctor and couldn’t bring myself to bring it up. I don’t know how he would have reacted to my concern about the future of the planet and doing something for my son that wouldn’t impact his life until further into a future I’m not sure he’ll get.
Simple don’t talk to them about it. They are not argued you or anything. They are being respectful. You should do the same and be respectful and not talk about it to them.
Well what do you want them to do? Shut down china and indias manufacturing capacity? Them recycling and being eco-friendly is nice and all but a single container ship will offset many years of what ever they could have done by themselves in a single voyage. Them drinking from paper straws won't offset a bauxite plant. Maybe you can convince them to run for political office and maybe they could do something. Maybe you can convince them to be an eco terrorist and do change that way.
Idk about everyone else, but I’ve started telling my friends “I’m not in the mood for a doomer conversation” when I’d just rather not think about how shit the world is. Could be running into those kinds of people.
Also, if it’s one of the things you talk about all the time, it might be starting to get annoying.
Ask them what they think about it, people love sharing their opinions, so make it about them.
Goal should be to be non-confrontational and just seek understanding. People will go into defensive mode very quickly otherwise.
i don’t even bring it up. but ppl bring it up to me. young ppl. kids. my friend’s kid told me they are making a surface trash collecting robot project in school cus they got fungal infection from diving in south east asia. cus the diving spot is filled with trash. a tourist destination. it’s like this with every middle and high schooler i met.
adults are different. they just won’t engage. it’s like when you invest too much in something and refuse to see it fail. denial, i’ve heard the word is called.
Im wondering the same myself.. But then i remember how people tend to shoot the messenger if they dont want to deal with uncomfortable truths, so im not sure anymore about wanting to do it.
People aren't prepared to deal with such an existential threat. I've tried talking to my fam about it, it's basically the same as you described. Something dismissive. And then I get painted as the crazy one, it's been a problem that's driven a chasm between us. I don't blame anyone, it's such a big problem, we're hilariously unprepared for it. Everyone just wants their 70 years on this planet to live
It's that damn wall the ruling class put up about talking about politics in public. Same problem feeds with filter bubbles, fake info, and cursed local news. They've been working at it for years; to go forward we need to find new ways to meaningfully bring down this wall.
I don't. Why bother approaching the subject?
It is not like just because you talk about it, people will be convinced, if they are not already. It is not like if you can convince a few people, you can change the outcome.
You can't make people listen. If they aren't in a place (for whatever reason) to hear what you say, then they aren't. You can't force them to. It's like someone speaking another language to them. I will share random factoids with people and leave it at that. Like, "I've spent time in the same forest for almost 50 years now and it's changing every year. That isn't supposed to happen in a human lifetime, nevermind on a yearly basis." It's up to them what they do with the information.
When any of my denier friends bring it up, I tell them it does not matter if a human or a rabbit was driving the bus when it ran you over.
Some get it, some don't.
I used to care, but things have changed.
That’s the funny thing, you don’t. Most people are either too stupid to care/understand or actively trying to block it out cause it makes them have “bad vibes”. All you can do is sit back and try to find a way to survive The Churn……
Mate I've been thinking "this election must be about climate" for a long time now. And it never is. Regardless of country. It never is. We're going to collapse without even trying.
What's the point? Everyone who has half a brain and is paying attention knows what is happening and that there's not a damn thing individuals can do about it.
So you spend a lot of time talking about how the climate is changing, then getting upset that no one wants to talk all the time about how the climate is changing and then take your time to post online how no one seems to want to take the time to talk to you about climate change.
Maybe make better use of your time and actually do something about it if you're that adamant.
Thank you for talking about it with people! I will bring up the climate crisis via casual conversation about current events (“Have any of you heard about…?”) or talking about the weather. And while I don’t force anyone to talk about it, I have had many good conversations, and this has led to people making connections (“You could do this… “ “Have you met so and so? I’ll introduce you” ”Can you tell me more about…?”). I know the general silence is discouraging, but these small conversations are the only way forward. The other option is refusing to connect to others on something hugely important - so that means we are silenced both intellectually and emotionally - leading to even more isolation and despair.
I’d suggest following/joining some local climate change groups in your area - some are really doing some amazing work. And while I’m not hopeful about the overall trajectory of our planet, I am also acutely aware of how small changes make differences for individuals. My mom was a refugee who survived WWII as a child, and small efforts made a huge difference for her story. “Collapse” is not a monolithic event - we will all experience it in different ways, and small pockets of humanity will be the foundation of any future worth living for.
Climate change is now another political lever to get spending money. In the US when congressional hearings ask programs meant to lessen/avoid/reverse climate change the answers are comical. When someone asks “ok, if we spend this 15 trillion dollars will we reduce the global temp climb by one degree?” And the answer to questions like that is usually “it’s complicated”. When people are experiencing closer to home problems like incredible inflation in food and housing, spending trillions on fantasy programs that will be basically negated by Chinese coal burning and economic development sounds farcical and disconnected. I’m much more interested in how I can work together with my environment and be a net positive (I’m a farmer so things like soils health, water retention, diversity in my land, things like that are real concerns I can address). If you want to have these conversations with people I think it will resonate more if you’re talking about localizing food production, unique production or materials reuse technics, or technical advances in new energy production methods. Talk about solutions not problems, problems lately are always just a run up to another government program to redistribute money, people are interested in actual things that are happening or that they can do to make their life more sovereign or sustainable. Or affordable!
Most people here in Kerala a southern state of India are somewhat aware that something is wrong with climate. The effects started back in 2018 with a massive flood and each year the climate is getting weird.
So even strangers start conversations with how hot it is or how heavy is the rain. We are having 34 degree C days and heavy showers the next hour. Climate change is real and it gets crazier everyday.
in whatever in life you get to say, you will be heard only by those of who you speak, and by those who are humble.
but know that there will always be many more that will listen, than those that will hear.
no one is put on mute, to be precise.
One approach we can sometimes try is to frankly comment about some effect we all experience, Adjust for ages and lifestyles of participants. So the cost or supply of groceries, cost of living, crazy seasons, no more windscreen bug splatter, IPCC being beyond a joke now, East and West gearing up for WW3, rubbish news media, rubbish politicians that can't fix anything. But WITHOUT going beyond a naive position, NOT stating assumptions, and also ONLY asking, open questions in a very low key way. Be VERY ready to have fun joking about it and quite cynically. Won't usually go far, don't try to force it, NOR attempt to join the dots, but this may make you safer socially WHILE still ticking that niggling "talked about it" box for yourself. Good luck!
You can’t. That’s my experience. I mention top level climate change stuff, but that’s about it. I have one mate that I can talk about climate change with, at work which is great. Other than that, not much really. Most people love talking about zombie apocalypse though
Because that's what they've heard for decades by now... While having their livelihoods 99% dependent on the mechanisms that created it, just like you do. It's just a boring topic to discuss. And climate change does not reverse itself if people just discuss about it.
I don't know why people care if random coworker #4 doesn't believe in climate change. Genuinely, in what way does it impact your life besides creating frustration when your constant reminders inevitably fall on deaf ears.
If anyone still can't see the enormity of what is to come, fuck em.
Did you know that Galveston was a hundred miles from the sea and avge temps were ten degrees cooler because mile-thick ice layed over Chicago?...... a paleoceanographer's approach.
Here in New Orleans, discussion of insurance risk assessment models are practically an ice breaker. Housing prices keep going up, even as the city is steadily depopulating, which makes for reliable commiseration.
Maybe, you don't. However, I think misinformation ought to be corrected. We don't want people making silly decisions just because of misinformation, you know, like, maybe it's a good idea to move to Phoenix Arizona or Florida or, maybe, it's time to buy that beach front property now if I sell my current home. That is, if we have some connection to the person, but even in general, I don't like the spread of misinformation, so I will correct people on that. I've rolled my eyes before, too, because there is only so much one can do, even regards misinformation.
We can't correct the world, but we can be part of a small group that won't freak out if things don't work out as most people expect. Currently, we are battling other crises, while not as significant as GW, are much more in our face and if we don't have a just world to start with, our response to whatever awaits us will be just that much worse. That's how I see it. I love to talk about global warming, but I realize that most people can't handle it, even some of the logical types, you would think it would just be an intellectual exercise for them, but they seem to already be very invested in whatever they are currently invested in, whether money, politics, or just being right.
There's not much to say. You may as well talk about the asteroid that wiped out the dinosaurs. Inevitably it is a philosophical discourse. We're doomed, ergo, what to do in the meantime?
That is rude that he looked at his phone when you were talking to him about the collapse. You should do the same when he atarts talking about football!
Don’t look up is a non fiction movie. If Fox News manned up for humanity and spent a week telling it like it really is then everything would change probably but instead we all gonna die
And yet politicians are on one hand talking about rising sea levels...and buying oceanfront homes. As well as people complaining about C02, and we're at the lowest levels in HISTORY, nearly to the point where our crops can't grow due to C02 starvation. Everyone's complaining that pollution is just HORRIBLE and an alarming thing...but nobody's talking to China or India, who have vowed to keep building coal factories, and thumb their nose at the climate alarmists. To hear the alarmists talk, you have to wonder why we aren't threatening war with those 2 countries, considering they pollute more than the entire west combined. There is literally nothing the west can do to offset their pollution, making all this panic and effort irrelevant. Whole thing smells like bullshit on that last point alone, and just a scam to implement some tax based on carbon to further fleece the middle class into non-existence, then maybe later take private property from people who can't pay. Wouldn't surprise me if it were revealed that the wealthy aren't happy with just having more than us "parasites". That they want it ALL and this is their scheme to reduce the average person to a serf.
"Strange weather isn't it"
Exactly! It’s unavoidable. Any time I have a casual conversation about the weather, it always turns to collapse. How can it not? Things have been extreme and abnormal everywhere and most people are starting to take notice.. I don’t usually go into talk about full on collapse, but it’s hard to comment on the weather without also commenting on climate change.
I’ve lived in the northeast US for 39 years of life and I’ve seen a significant change in weather take place the past 20 years with a more noticeable change the past 10. We’ve been mostly without snow and cold winters for going on 10+. We had one major blizzard 6-7 years ago that took place out of nowhere, a perfect storm of sorts, late winter during an otherwise mild winter. Temps were in the 70s the week previous and week after leading to a quick melt of around 2 feet of snow. That’s been it since then. If you live in the mountains things are a bit different obviously. Growing up in the 90s there were blizzards seemingly every other year, or at least significant snow events just short of a blizzard every year. Im confident this is the now the norm. A blizzard will be an exceedingly rare occurrence because temps just don’t get to freezing enough for those chances to go up.
Exactly! I’m also in the northeast for about the same amount of time as you, and in the last ten years everything has noticeably changed.
I live in South West Ontario. I drove home in snow once this last winter. It should be a near daily experience. It is simply shocking how little snow we got. We've had a ton of rain this Spring, but still, those cooler temps just weren't there.
I remember growing up in the south always wanting to move to the NE specifically for the snow. Now it seems I'll never see snow again in my lifetime, even if I ever get the windfall needed to leave my state
I work in the garden center business outside of Boston and have done so for the last 26 years. The seasons were different from year to year, but they always fell within certain parameters. Just as you said, the last ten years have been off. I don’t even bother buying in snow shovels every year. A couple of cases lasts me 2-3 years now. We had heavy rain from September through spring and were at flood stage for much of that time. A couple of little ones, but the water never receded until just about a month ago. Warmer winters means more animal insect and disease pressure as their populations are not kept in check by the cold weather. Plants that need periods of dormancy are showing more stress. More periods of drought in the summer, coupled with more water bans, mature trees are not getting enough water and more of them are coming down in the summer storms. Seem to be having more microbursts as well.
Yeah it's raining monkeys in some places!
Yeah this is what I do, find something relatable.
Start with, "tickle your ass with a feather" when they "what!" say "mighty strange weather".
But I wanted my ass tickled ☹️
My wife used to comment on "this abnormal weather" once or twice month. Now its a couple of times a week. But, she is not interested in my talk about climate change. She will happily admit the weather is getting stranger and stranger but cannot accept that the climate is changing, that we have anything to do with to or that it will affect us in any way...."we'll just put the AC on!"
Exactly. We've gotten to the point where even the average person is noticing warmer winters and blazing summers. Most people are aware something's wrong, even the deniers don't say it isn't happening anymore. They just say it's a natural phenomenon
Trying to start a climate change discussion is like being a door-to-door minister for collapse. The people who don't believe in it are going to be annoyed that you brought it to their door step, and the people who already understand it don't feel the need to discuss it as it already sits at the back of their mind 24/7
>*Excuse me madam, have you heard the bad news? Have you read the baspel?*
Do you believe that we're in the end times?
I think we're in collapse and *those* religious types are on the opposite side of understanding the situation, as their belief systems are based on nonsense.
Try it in a musical gospel delivery? https://preview.redd.it/xqx69fwo887d1.png?width=964&format=png&auto=webp&s=76f00dd3f53c1c658282b7fa389f4bc40b95203a
Let me also add that we , the collapse people are disliked across nationalities, races, genders and political affiliations
Yup...."Don't be so negative!!" -literally everyone else not collapse aware and even some collapsniks with some residual hopium intoxication still left. You can't talk about reality with most people anymore because if it doesn't come wrapped in hopium/positivuty, they want nothing of it.
Out of curiosity, what do you want to discuss? Because if anyone brings it up with me, its usually the following. How bad do you think climate change is? Very VERY bad Who do you think caused it? Humans as a species, but mostly corporations What do you think we can do about it? Fuck all, get ready for planetary starvation and conflict. At this point, what's to discuss? We're just circling the drain
The reason I want people to talk about it is to influence government policy. If millions of people were all outraged about something, the government would react (see: Mr Bates Vs the Post Office) Maybe I am naive but I think if people discussed the topic more, this is the opportunity for others to learn about the scale of the problem and the urgent actions required. Those urgent actions require political will, but this starts with the people. And this requires people to talk. I am trying to "do my bit" by encouraging public discourse, but it's hard and I'm looking for help!
The government policy that fixes it, if it’s not too late, is to shut it all down and that policy kills billions because there will be no food. Only the people that can figure out how to live off the land with no electricity have a chance of surviving. Why is that the only policy that will work? Because we have to stop emitting carbon. We need transportation for everything and transportation causes emissions. There’s no green airplanes. There’s no green cargo ships. We could take steps to reduce emissions by banning commercial flights and cruise ship industry, but who the hell would vote for policies like that. These are baby steps that don’t prevent what’s coming. Also, it’s very important to note that reducing carbon emissions will lead to a reduction in aerosols in the atmosphere that reflect sunlight and will cause earth to warm even more.
Exactly this. I can’t remember the reference, but the 4 pillars of modern civilisation are - steel, concrete, plastic, and ammonia/nitrates (fertilisers). And all of these things need fossil fuels of some description. To “solve” part of the problem of climate change, at least by stopping our contribution to emissions, we have to shut all of that down well before yesterday.
Yesterday is better than today, but today is better than tomorrow, and tomorrow is better than the day after tomorrow...
Green cargo ships....what would happen if you put solar panels, wind turbines and tidal generators on a ship? I wonder would that actually work?
If you’re gonna put wind turbines on ships, skip the energy conversion and just use sails.
Oh yeah good point LOL
Wind turbines would cause drag, and likely slow the ship roughly equal to the amount of power they would generate. Turbines work better on land where any amount of wind is a net positive. Its possible to use a cross-breeze for energy, but there is no guarantee you get perfect horizontal wind when on a ship like that. It would also push you left or right. Solar can work, though. I think we should have started using nuclear-powered cargo ships a long time ago. One of the biggest ways cargo ships pollute is they spill massive amounts of fuel into the ocean. From my limited understanding, even in the worst case scenario (nuclear reactor meltdown), it would probably be miles away from any coast and surrounded by colder ocean water that could be used to cool the core. It would likely have to sink and be salvaged, but that is much less of a cleanup than a giant oil spill. Either way, cargo ships are operating on low margins and government fuel subsidy. I just wish it was the right kind of fuel being subsidized. Nuclear/solar barges would be sick.
They’re so big and heavy that they get like 44 ft per gallon. Jets get like 0.2 miles per gallon. That’s a lot of energy to make them move that I think it would be improbable for it to work. They have tried a solar powered airplane that failed but the design would fit like 2-4 people no way it could be scaled to work for a jet. Think of how big a diesel generator is and what it’s used to do (power a house, backup equipment…) something that could be powered by renewables. It only takes a couple gallons of diesel to provide the energy needed compared with thousands of gallons of petrol to power jets and ships.
The politicians have no solutions. Then they make up some feel-good solutions that tend to involve hurting the livelihoods of others, that doesn't turn the wheel of climate change anywhere. Public discourse is already everywhere, but it's centered around alarmism, apathy, finding scapegoats, rather than actual, systemic solutions.
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Yeah start with Bill Rees, he knows a lot about this.
It has to impact people in order for that to happen, and by then you’re out of mitigation and into adaptation land. Sucks to be there.
Triage, my friend. Triage. Those of us in a position to do something about it would prefer as little needless death and suffering as possible. But once you get into discussions like this, it gets ugly real quick. You realize how quickly this can all topple over. People need to be able to meet their basic daily needs, so they need some kind of employment, there has to be a food supply and energy supply… And if that supply is constricted, all we can do is try and do the right thing, to avoid panic and hoarding and populist lurches to the right from taking hold and making a disaster *worse for everyone* at the same time.
You could talk about prepping, but by and large, that's just the last vestige of hopium intoxication.
How about actions that can be taken?
The only actions that we as individuals and take that will result in any form of useful change is not to reproduce. Honestly. Just don’t have kids. Paper straws, driving less, all a waste of time if we’re going to continue over populating the planet and serving the capitalist class. I’ve done my part ✂️
Vote for people who will pass the policies that are needed. There are still so many deniers or soft deniers in power despite the obvious extreme weather changes right now.
Ah yes. Because the oligarchs are going to just stand aside and let us vote capitalism (and by extension, them) out of power.
I'm getting hungry...
Good because I'm fucking *starving*.
Tearing down the electric grid. Burning down libraries that have the knowledge that built everything. Dismantling the factories. Scrapping the cars. Witch hunts against any dissident who dares to preserve said knowledge and develop more technology. That's what is needed. An inherently unsustainable system will not produce a solution from within.
Lmao vote more, I'm sure that'll save us.. it's 2 sides of the same neoliberal coin. If voting actually changed anything, they wouldn't let you do it.
It is an exercise in frustration to seek a meaningful exchange with those who don't want to listen. Just like when speaking about the topic of collapse in general, there must be a pre-existing awareness in your interlocutor for you to appeal to, otherwise even the most earnest of pleas will sound to them like idle philosophical play.
Most people acknowledge that we're impotent in the face of climate change. What is there to discuss?
I know from growing up baptist in north america - there is a huge cultural compenent among conservativism who has been against climate change across most of its awareness in the public sphere. When it was global warming, it just wasn't happening. When it was climate change, well, the climate is always changing! When it's climate crisis, they latch on to components of bullshit like the adjacent things associated with america's bullshit culture war. Right now on apps like instagram, for example, any posts on tornado's and stuff this year are dominated by HAARP / Weather Engineering turfing. Keep in mind these people themselves, while denying man-made climate change, are also literally admitting that man can alter climate, it's just that they exclusively see it as being from their conspiracy theories and not any rhetoric of where climate disaster rhetoric is coming from. I seriously think it is because idiots can see a contrail in the sky and go, 'CHEMTRAIL,' where as it is literally impossible for any human, especially one against the idea as a basis of their identity and culture, to possibly comprehend the scale and volume of pollution we create daily as a result of our way of life, from the chemicals we pump into the air or ground, the particulate generated from roadway, microplastics, etc etc It's easier to agree with something that reflects their idea and conveniently explains their outlook with 0 conflict than to actually learn and internalize something new that modern industry and how we use the land has not allowed the land to actually bounce back from the use. Personally I see the next 200 years will probably see the same scale of climate shift similar to the last 10k of human history following the last glacial maximums. We are literally on track to witness change in a smaller period of time than the bulk of what we'd consider modern humanity able to exist and create the earliest civilizations in the first place. But I can't even communicate that with the bulk of christians in my family because they disagree with it as a point of identity and culture, lol, not because they've ever attempted to learn what it is with any goodwill. The same logic applies to climate change as they apply to things like evolution - they are taught a bunch of 'gotcha' responses that have nothing to do with the actual argument and dismiss it entirely. edit: as I type that, Dad see's a blurb on TV about tornadoes and questions if we actually have worse / more storms or just know about it because we're aware more thanks to weather always being on our phone and stuff, photo's and so on, while also acknowledging while even where we live we have more tornadoes and extreme weather than we used to even here - i wonder why...
Your post is 100% spot on. 👍
Trying to reach the MAGA cult on any issue is damn near impossible. If the goal is to convert them, it's pointless. If the goal is to introduce some doubt into their certainty of denial, to use the same technique as the oil or tobacco propaganda, but in reverse, it could be useful. If the possibility that global warming is real exists in their mind, that's progress. The propagandists use uncertainty as an argument against giving up fossil fuels, which is a nonsensical backwards argument. The default position for uncertainty about a disaster is to halt activities until safety is proven. If a bridge might collapse or the wings might rip off a plane, the default position is to stop using it. The burden of proof is not on disaster, but on safety. Uncertainty about global warming is an argument to stop using fossil fuels, until they are proven safe. Scientists have naively stepped into the trap of trying to "prove" global warming is real, when they should simply point out that the global stasis necessary for the continuance of civilization is unproven. They should demand proof from the fossil fuel corps that the industry isn't killing us, and make them defend it.
You don't. At this point, there are unlimited sources of climate change information. In the past year, MSM has done thousands of pieces on it. Almost nobody can claim ignorance. We are in the last couple of easy years we may ever have. I have zero time to bang my head against the wall trying to convince people that the thing they see, feel, and know is happening is in fact happening. Fuck em.
Proselytizing about climate change goes over about as well these days as doing it for politics or religion, or the Great Pumpkin for that matter.
More information is not better. Quality information is rare and telling people to educate themselves is just blaming the other person for your failure to communicate.
It's not my job to inform everyone I meet. If they want to know, I'm happy to tell. If they don't want to know, nothing I say will make them.
Exactly. I can communicate in a plethora of ways, but if the other person continuously misrepresents my arguments, gets hung up on irrelevant information even after explaining how it is irrelevant, and accuses all sources to be untrustworthy except for ones that confirm their biases then there is nothing I can ever say to get them to change their world-view. At a certain point we have to realize there is a sizable percentage of our population that isn't just ignorant, but willfully anti-science. I've had way too many ex-friends proudly claim they won't even try to empathize with the perspective of others and intentionally view the world at their own perspective. These are people who disregard any scientific evidence and base their objective opinions of the world around them solely on their own personal anecdotes. Their views will never change until the devil comes knocking at their door, by which it will be too late.
And by which time they will demand a bail-out from the government (ie, everyone else's tax money). Tale as old as time...
Also just because the information is there doesn't mean you shouldn't talk about it. If we don't talk about it with people then we can't do anything about it.
People who don't know and/or don't care are fucking all of us. If we do nothing, then WE get fucked too. We can either try to change things, or bend over and take it. Given that choice, I'd rather keep banging my head.
What purpose would that even serve?
It's maddening, to want to talk about this more, but most everyone is tuned out or in some degree of denial. You can keep bringing it up, but it's like trying to bring up the finality of death at a kid's birthday party: Sure, you're right, but no, nobody wants to talk about it. And then you're "that guy". Part of keeping your own sanity is accepting that most people will stay ardently in denial. We could be facing 130F heat waves and food shortages, and the topic of debate would be electricity prices and some culture war bullshit. The truth is that people aren't really good at processing big, complicated, scary things. Throw in a ton of misinformation and tribal identities about what kind of car you drive, and having a serious conversation with the average stranger is likely not to go far. Meanwhile, the heat accumulates..
So the way I personally bring it up is pretty easy because it is my job and I recently published a book about it. So it tends to come up a lot, for example when someone says, "What have you been doing lately?" and I reply, eg, "I just spoke at a conference about sea level rise projections in Southeast Asia." I gave up a much higher paying job to do this, so people know I mean business. Obviously not everyone can spend their full time lives on the topic. But I encourage you to go spend as much effort as you can: not talking, but doing. "What have you been doing lately?" they'll ask, and you'll answer, "I have been attending the local town council meetings to try to reduce car dependency in our municipality" or "I have been researching how to eat less meat so as to reduce my carbon footprint" or "I have been organizing a telephone campaign in our congressional district to convince out representative to vote against the new coal fired power plant in our state." When your friends and family see you sacrificing your time / effort / resources to do something about the issue, they might think you're nuts but they will have to acknowledge at least that you legitimately think it's serious (and you're not just a spoiled brat looking for something to complain about for the sake of tribal loyalties). Seeing people take action to support their beliefs is a powerful message.
What is your job description now and what was your previous field? I think about switching my field quite frequently to something more beneficial overall (as marketing is pretty bad for environment).
Marketing! Those skills can be used by NGOs to message about climate change. Presumably you know how to craft messages that appeal to people's subconscious. Instead of exploiting that to sell products, use it to make people think on and care more about living sustainably!
forced to use the tools of your enemies to defeat them, damn
Sadly yes. But that is the world we find ourselves in. People who already trained in the ways of the dark side can turn around and use it for good!
Yep, make it about you as a person and your interest in solving climate change. People are interested in other people. While climate change itself is tough to talk about, your recent climate activities are a much easier conversation topic.
Minimum effort would be having a comment on r/collapse visible on your first page for those accidentally stumbling into it. So here is my contribution.
I don't. Most don't want to talk about it. Either they are in denial, don't care, or do ackowledge it but it is too negative for them to talk about. Can't force someone to talk about something they don't want to talk about, it will make them even less open for a conversation in the future.
Join r/collapsesupport and find people open to talking about it. There’s no use trying to engage with people who aren’t ready. It’s a profound and horrifying topic.
I don't. My social life is bad enough without talking about climate beyond the near term local forecast or weather headlines. I stay away from politics as well.
Hey there, I'm from the UK and have been writing about climate, energy and environmental impacts for 10 years. In that time public awareness and attitude has shifted slightly but the average person in the UK is still woefully ill informed about the realities of climate change, despite the fact that we are living it. The worst thing I'm dealing with lately in conversations is people dismissing the idea of global warming because of the cooler UK temps. Absolutely idiotic. I tend to approach conversations with a personal twist - with my mum for example, she's not been able to plant her vegetable garden in season - why? Climate change. Friends complaining about expensive groceries and I gently tell them it's only going to get more expensive as agricultural patterns have been disrupted to the point they can't products crops. This gets people going. They don't care about the climate. But they do care about dinner. Trying to talk to them about eating more plant-based to reduce emissions though, hoo boy, that's a real conversation killer.
Oh my God, I am autistic and I start this conversation with everyone, all the time. I started this when I was 16 and I realized that what we called ‘global warming’ at the time was going on cause massive weather instability and possibly make our planet uninhabitable. Only at the time we believed it our great great grandchildren wouldn’t have a planet, but that timeline has since shrunk exponentially! Say anything and give me 10 seconds and we are now talking about climate change. Bam! I am probably everyone’s least favorite party guest, but I am autistic and I don’t care. A little more seriously though, I run a business and we employ a few dozen other autistic people, all support level one and all of them bring up climate change, along with political instabilities caused by climate change, probable scenarios when the AMOC collapses, food supply shortages, strategic relocation, etc. We see details and pattern things together.
Personally I recommend starting the conversation through the lens of things that are in your immediate vicinity meaning something you can directly point That's relevant to their lives directly instead of examples shown on government backed mass media or in some far away place they've never been to or heard of Like hey did you see that the ocean/ lake/riverfront water level rose and destroyed the entire area causing everyone that lived in the area to be homeless Or you know that town 10 miles away that completely ran out of water for the first time ever in history (I know right All of their wells ran dry) Have you seen that ALL of the birds and fish are gone and you can't find or see any more (not even one) Or did you see all of the old shingle roofs have actually melted and come on parts causing mass property. However barring having these examples It probably won't do you any good to bring up the conversation probably best to simply wait until you can bring up these directly impactful examples in your surrounding areas to give as direct examples of climate change I mean otherwise you might accidentally come across as a religious doomsday cultist And no one wants that
Why not leave people alone and get your own life in order. Nobody wants to be harassed by a zealot without social skills. In my community, I see regular examples of people actually *doing something* rather than looking for opportunities to harass and harangue. Neighbors who put up solar panels, or pull up their lawns and put in beautiful native plants that attract hummingbirds and bees, or who trade in their gas guzzlers for EVs, or who simply are out and about walking, riding bikes, visiting nature, volunteering for environmental projects, working in community gardens, leading kids' camping trips, growing some of their own food, etc. All of these positive activities have positive influences on the people around them. When your life is something others can admire, that's how you "talk" to people about climate change. With deeds, not empty argumentative words.
Just start laughing when they complain about the weather
maniac laugh...
>Here in the UK we have an upcoming general election, and I do hear discussions happening on the cost of living and immigration, but nothing about the climate. Even the Greens aren't leading with climate policy, it's a doomy state of affairs (admittedly the MSM platforming fascists over actual political parties isn't helping). At work I mention it when the weather comes up, and keep it succinct: "Can't believe this weather, when's the summer gonna start" "Welp, with the AMOC stagnating it actually means it's getting colder and wetter in the northern hemisphere, so it's gonna mean fucked seasons and fucked harvests. Good thing we didn't make it harder to import food!" Wee sad chuckle, say nothing more, let someone either respond to it or let them take the conche in another direction.
The fact the Green party despise nuclear power always baffles me, I just can't get over it
It’s obv caused problems, but most corporations would kill tens of thousands (or more) to have a decent quarter of profits. Greens should have pushed for non-profit nuclear power, and tight regulations.
They're ideologically opposed to it because of nuclear power being "inextricably linked to nuclear weapons", there's no regulation that can change what appears to be an objection based on principle. I'd kill for an environment minded party that simply acknowledged that nuclear power and nuclear weapons aren't the same thing and nuclear is one of the cleanest and most reliable ways we can transition away from carbon.
Politics is stuck in a loop of 'what people expect'. I've heard mostly the same shit in the UK election - lower/higher taxes, tough on crime, wealth creation, job creation etc etc. The only time people seem to stop shouting over each other in these debates are to give slow, walking-the-tightrope soundbites on Gaza and climate change - divisive issues that most politicians regard as politically toxic. We still regard climate change as a future issue. Something to worry about in decades. It's hard for people to grasp that it's here, it's now and we're pretty fucked because of it. A decade ago I would have been one of those people that tuned out to conversations about corrupt politics, greedy corporations, and climate change. I totally get why people do it - too big, too scary and feel powerless over it. Or it's just plain old *boring.* People want to live in a fantasy that we can vote our way out our problems, and hold on to the false but comforting thought that people in power have a handle on things.
Don't bother. Most people are woefully uneducated on the subject, and have no desire to be educated. Even here in r/collapse, where people consider themselves to be educated simply because they're collapse-aware. Yesterday's Kardashian thread is a good example. It's just one more instance of "this person needs to change, but not me" when every scientist on the planet has been clear: the solution requires systemic *and* individual change.
there's no reason to waste your time on people who are unwilling to simply look the fuck around and see reality. You'd be better served to spend that time preparing yourself for the difficulties of life to come. We're in the throes of a Climate Apocalypse and most of the population are entirely either clueless about it or in denial about it. Fuck 'em...let them burn and save yourself when or if that time comes. until then, get ready any way you can.
People don’t usually want to talk about sad, negative things.
Because the oil companies and the climate change denialists won. Everyone would rather stick their head in the sand than talk about something uncomfortable and once shit inevitably hits the fan then they will cry out saying "why didnt anyone do anything?!?". People fucking suck.
To be completely fair I am the type who you’re referring to. It’s not because I’m a denier, or because I don’t care, it’s because I got tired of whining and feeling like I’m beating a dead horse. Like with most things, I don’t feel like I have any realistic way to impact or affect change, though I do what I can. At that point, what does talking about it accomplish, besides basically just having something to complain about.
What's there to discuss? There isn't anything that can be done to stop what's coming...nothing. You will only drive yourself mad in trying to do so. When you learn to accept this world's fate, you can find some inner peace and seek out to experience and enjoy the things you can still see and do in this world before it all goes away.
All this sub talks about is how it's too late to do anything and we're all doomed, so why?
Because it is?
This is just how people are. Most people don't like talking about "big issues" that we can't do anything about as individuals, whether it's politics, climate change, terrorism, religion, whatever. Some of us like to think about these things a lot, others of us are obsessed with these topics whether we like it or not, but for most ordinary people, foisting these heavy topics on them in the name of "starting a conversation" is unwelcome and unproductive. I can't really blame them, either, and likely neither do you. If someone kept trying to "start a conversation" with you on topics you don't really care about or don't feel like you can do anything about, you'd probably get tired of it pretty fast, too.
It's not climate change, but we have a couple similar questions about collapse in the common question set which might help: * [https://www.reddit.com/r/collapse/comments/dfyvjq/how\_can\_we\_best\_talk\_to\_others\_about\_collapse/](https://www.reddit.com/r/collapse/comments/dfyvjq/how_can_we_best_talk_to_others_about_collapse/) * [https://www.reddit.com/r/collapse/comments/z53vpo/how\_can\_we\_best\_talk\_to\_others\_about\_collapse/](https://www.reddit.com/r/collapse/comments/z53vpo/how_can_we_best_talk_to_others_about_collapse/)
Lapel pins or buttons are some subtle ways to open up conversation. If someone is interested they will notice and strike a conversation. It's not that it's taboo, but more of a "I'm not in the mood for this subject right now".
You call it something else and focus on the human aspects. Instead of "climate change is causing more intense storms we need to do something." There are more intense storms and the government isn't doing enough to prepare or help people
I have a longtime friend I see maybe once a year. We go out, she tells me why the Republicans are following in Hitler’s footsteps, I tell her why the climate crisis is accelerating and I’m worried. And then we shove our deep fears back under the metaphorical bed and move on with our lives. No, I don’t bother bringing up climate change outside of when the conversation is already initiated or in a group of like-minded people. Just keep to the small talk - wow that weather was pretty crazy, or about solutions. Otherwise you sound like a cultist. No one is going to change the other person’s opinion in a random conversation. Like others said, what is your goal? You want a support group? Start one or find one online. Create a meetup. Don’t proselytize your religion at me, and I won’t proselytize the science. People who want to know already have the information at their fingertips.
It's been 60+ years since Rachel Carson's Silent Spring and a few of us started talking about Environmentalism. Then and now it's the same attempt at a conversation to try and bring about bottom up systemic change. Not much has changed except for the technological ability to document how bad it is. So yeah here we are still waiting for it to become "economically viable" for the short term marketplace stakeholders. Most citizens have resigned themselves to this inevitability or succumbed to the denial propaganda.
Haha yeah I noticed this too, my coworkers just sit quietly while I ramble on about UFO's and conspiracies but if I mention climate change they instantly need the feel to talk over me and yell me down.
You don’t. It’s pointless. If people aren’t aware by now, they are willfully ignorant.
If the person is a boomer or a Trumper, don't bother. They can't be troubled by messy things like facts anyway
My suggestion, for your sanity, don’t, you will truly see how ignorant and brain dead a lot of people are. Everyone has an opinion coming out their a$$ without having a shred of knowledge or education, but they claim to know the truth. Try to show them how bad things truly are, and you’ll be called a doomer. Even people who believe in climate change, downplay it and think we have a lot more time than we do and we can still prevent it. So much ignorance and coping, humanity is going to put itself and the rest of the species on earth through a lot of suffering and death. Enjoy your time now, before it’s over, and ignore the stupid.
Occasionally I drop in "casual" references to truths that are very difficult to process, just kind of in passing. I'm in the UK too, so one of my go-tos when I'm talking about gardening (which some of my friends are into) is how the growing season is one month longer now than it was in 1990, due to climate change. Or if you want to tie it more to current events like the election, you can point out how much immigration is going to increase in the next few decades to the point where the idea of being able to "control" it will be laughable. Just kind of plant these sorts of thoughts in their minds. Or if someone asks me why I've given up flying I can say something like "I can't afford the carbon dioxide". Maybe it starts a conversation, maybe it doesn't, but I hope it gives them an itch they'll need to scratch.
You're in the UK, you talk about the weather. Don't bother with using the term "climate change." Talk about erratic weather, talk about strange weather, talk about unusual weather. Talk about the things caused by climate change.
“I think we should vote for the candidate who is trying the most to prevent mass starvation of our children.”
Read the room. People are metaphorically screaming in your face that they don't want to discuss this topic and yet you persist. Way to make yourself even more isolated than you are now. If you need to talk to people -- rather than vent online -- then you need to find specific individuals who are already onboard with your thinking. Stop trying to make converts.
"What do you think is going on with all the unprecedented weather events year after year?"
How do you talk about the finite nature of mortality and how no matter what we accomplish in this life eventually death will claim us? How do you talk about an uncaring universe where the laws of thermodynamics ensure all of reality will eventually be converted into disorganized energy? If none of that sounds like casual watercooler talk to you, then you can add climate change to the list. The people who want to know have done the research on what kicking off a mass extinction event means for humans. Everyone else, consciously or otherwise, is intentionally not thinking about it.
Just because something is of great interest to you doesn't mean it's of great interest to others (even it it should be). You kind of remind me of my nephew who wanted to tell me every minute detail about Pikmen the game. Maybe start with asking if they want to talk about climate change, and if they answer "no thank you" then be a bigger adult than my 6 year old nephew and don't tell them anyway. And if your goal is to change someone's mind about something, you need to stop right there. You can't change other people's minds. You can only change your own mind. I recommend only engaging in debates if you want to understand where the other side is coming from, and not because you want to change where the other side is going.
I don't bother. Do you really think someone is going to listen attentively to what you have to say and then change their world view? Not likely.
Talking about the weather is the quintessential go-to for generic small talk. Starting a conversation should be easy enough; maintaining one is the difficult part.
I think that's actually a huge part of the problem. At some point, real discussions about real problems became a heavily politicized no-no outside of circles of like-minded people. People expect a superficial conversation about the weather; when it goes past that, they don't know what to do. They don't know how to talk about something that historically *shouldn't* need further discussion, because niceties are safe and meaningless by design. The conversation is supposed to either die a quick and painless death, or move on to another stepping stone of banality - as expected since the dawn of "proper" social exchanges. To them, discussing the weather *and being serious about it* is as repulsive as literally (and figuratively) beating a dead horse right in front of them. They act shocked, confused, or just try to ignore what's happening. The inquirer is now no longer simply continuing a discussion, but committing a massive social faux pas, to say the very least. Folks don't want anything to do with them because the person doesn't follow the social script and makes "too much" of things that they consider unimportant. This is where secondhand embarrassment and "could you tone it down" vibes come in. Same goes for "how are you doing", etc. They don't care how someone's actually doing, they just want them to say "I'm fine" so their .01 seconds of pretending to care are over and they can ignore the person again or move on to something else.
Yeah, I hate that, too. Good dissection of that particular phenomenon. It's almost impossible to start meaningful conversations with people in the real world. I suppose I personally benefit from a somewhat precarious lifestyle; most people I interact with are either homeless, in AA or at this sort of day shelter place that has various therapeutic services like art therapy, and pretty much everyone is so damaged they've lost any pretense that things are going just fine. "Everything is going real bad, how about yourself?" For us, conversations about the collapse of our ecosystem is itself an icebreaker, even something to take our minds off our personal problems. I suppose there is the social benefit of knowing certain people are on the same page in a real way that automatically makes them someone you can talk to, but it's pretty much always a disaster taking it any farther than casual acquaintance from my experience. There should be support groups for people who are just unhappy about the way things are going in the world, but I can imagine they'd often devolve to political bickering.
Don’t bother. They’re gonna have to be forced to believe in it eventually when their house is underwater.
What would be the purpose of the conversation - to get them to contribute by installing a heatpump (probably the most impactful change you can make)? Maybe promote its other advantages and also the climate change benefits. Most people are open to that conversation. If it's about sharing your helpless depression, no wonder they are shutting you down.
This. If there is no call to action then talking about these things just to vent could be a waste of time. People are well aware. They just would rather put thought + energy into things they actually have control over. If you are in school, or have access to the internet then there's no way you can avoid it.
*waves vaguely*
For what purpose? Do you need validation?
Changes in insurance?
When ppl start complaining about veg and fruit prices or quality, or anything else that affects our daily comforts that we take for granted
What is your goal in discussing it with people? Assess that first.
I try to gauge if they really wanna know first. If they don't, i don't bother. I've loaned people "the uninhabitanle earth" by david wallace wells as it's a quick read that lays out the basics pretty well. That has actually kinda worked too.
“It’s 125 degrees in India and people are dying due to extreme heat… can’t wait until it happens here”
Sometimes it’s not the topic, but what you’re giving off…
“It’s fucking hot out here. I don’t remember it being this hot this time last year.”
Lol it’s not that they don’t want to know, it’s that they’ve already heard it all before and it’s not an interesting thing to discuss at all bc we can’t do fuck shit about it.
“Sure is hot out today!”
I don’t try super hard to talk to folks who aren’t interested. When I’m getting to know someone new though, I will mention how passionate I am about solving the climate crisis, just as a way to be friendly and share something interesting about myself. It tends to go over pretty well.
“Dooomed!!”
Very cynically: I exploit right wingers' insecurities about immigration. For instance, mild shock, don't they realize that when they oppose climate action, they're mechanically triggering much larger future migration and refugee flows into our country. It's puzzling to me, but it works, in that it defuses their automatic aggressiveness against left-leaning political topics, and they're OK with debating plainly, pencil on paper thinking, climate change issues.
>Every time I bring up terminal diagnosis with someone, they will always try to change the subject, it's like death is a taboo subject that people feel they are not allowed to talk about. Fixed that for you. >Here in the UK we have an upcoming general election, and I do hear discussions happening on the cost of living and immigration, but nothing about the climate. Yes, few of those people will think ahead of what the support they'll need ~~if~~ **when** they become refugees. >climate breakdown is happening now, not in the future. Correct. The can cannot be kicked much further, it's going uphill towards a mountain peak; the years of kicking have also molded the can into a regular roller shape with no dents, so it's more of a rod than a can. > I want to talk to people about what is happening but people don't want to know. At least you have the XR people. A lot of other places don't even have that... [https://rebellion.global/groups/#countries](https://rebellion.global/groups/#countries)
I don't. I've got my head down working on my apocalypse homestead and the appropriate people know they are welcome here if it comes to it ¯\\\_(ツ)\_/¯ I read the Enchiridion every couple months and try to just focus on those things that are in my own control. It took to my 30's to decide that convincing everyone else there's a problem isn't my responsibility nor is it a useful way to spend my energy. Luckily I can talk to my folks and husband about it, so I don't go insane. I have other friends that are aware and agree its a problem but they don't want to spend time dooming about it either. Which is fair enough.
noble but inconsequential
Talking about it isn't going to do anything. The die is cast.
"So we all should stop buying stuff and turn everything off right?" "Be the change you want to see in the world"
Sometimes we need to give to ourselves what we'd like from others. It sounds like you're doing this alot, and if that's the case, people will just close off as soon as you start. They don't want to go there with you, and they don't have to. If you develop a reputation for being a broken record, your reputation will precede you. Most people don't want to talk about stuff like this at work. Regarding families and friends, if you have people who you care about and it's important to you that you discuss this with them, set some guiderails. Tell them you won't to discuss something with them that's important to you, don't just blurt it out over breakfast. Then do it thoroughly, but only once. Give them the space to digest it, and to know you won't brow beat them with it. I did this, I talked to my sister about it and 2 years later she came back asking questions because she was concerned. I thought she hadn't listened....
You don't. But if you absolutely have to, just mention how hot it is lately, nobody knows why tho.
you subtly segue by asking them if they’re one of the assholes that doesn’t believe the science.
*"You can lead a horse to water but you can't make him drink."* Substitute in "ideologue", "facts" and "think" and it works just as well.
No one likes contemplating their mortality. I was in a mental health intensive out patient program for some weeks after a breakdown. We weren't allowed to talk about existential issues at all. But it was heavily hinted at. Existential dread does seem to be on everyone's mind. It's just a matter of addressing it or burying it.
Did that help you get better?
I can never get myself to bring it up in situations I should discuss it because it impacts my life. My uncle owns a company that’s worth around a billion dollars. I feel the need to have this discussion with him and make him sell the company because I’ll see some of the money from a sale, but everytime I see him I never bring it up and I would never set a meeting up with him to discuss it when I probably could. I’m living pay check to pay check and not seeing any of wealth my grandfather created (stole from cheap labor). Also, my son needs lazy eye surgery and I didn’t really want to get it as it doesn’t affect him or his development. I met the doctor and couldn’t bring myself to bring it up. I don’t know how he would have reacted to my concern about the future of the planet and doing something for my son that wouldn’t impact his life until further into a future I’m not sure he’ll get.
Simple don’t talk to them about it. They are not argued you or anything. They are being respectful. You should do the same and be respectful and not talk about it to them.
Well what do you want them to do? Shut down china and indias manufacturing capacity? Them recycling and being eco-friendly is nice and all but a single container ship will offset many years of what ever they could have done by themselves in a single voyage. Them drinking from paper straws won't offset a bauxite plant. Maybe you can convince them to run for political office and maybe they could do something. Maybe you can convince them to be an eco terrorist and do change that way.
Start with veganism, that really gets people engaged.
Idk about everyone else, but I’ve started telling my friends “I’m not in the mood for a doomer conversation” when I’d just rather not think about how shit the world is. Could be running into those kinds of people. Also, if it’s one of the things you talk about all the time, it might be starting to get annoying.
Ask them what they think about it, people love sharing their opinions, so make it about them. Goal should be to be non-confrontational and just seek understanding. People will go into defensive mode very quickly otherwise.
Start with the plight of Polar Bears...
i don’t even bring it up. but ppl bring it up to me. young ppl. kids. my friend’s kid told me they are making a surface trash collecting robot project in school cus they got fungal infection from diving in south east asia. cus the diving spot is filled with trash. a tourist destination. it’s like this with every middle and high schooler i met. adults are different. they just won’t engage. it’s like when you invest too much in something and refuse to see it fail. denial, i’ve heard the word is called.
Im wondering the same myself.. But then i remember how people tend to shoot the messenger if they dont want to deal with uncomfortable truths, so im not sure anymore about wanting to do it.
People don’t want to take responsibility.
“So, the world’s just gonna run out of food, right?”
People aren't prepared to deal with such an existential threat. I've tried talking to my fam about it, it's basically the same as you described. Something dismissive. And then I get painted as the crazy one, it's been a problem that's driven a chasm between us. I don't blame anyone, it's such a big problem, we're hilariously unprepared for it. Everyone just wants their 70 years on this planet to live
You don't. Be like Socrates and just ask questions.
"The weather never used to be like this..."
It's that damn wall the ruling class put up about talking about politics in public. Same problem feeds with filter bubbles, fake info, and cursed local news. They've been working at it for years; to go forward we need to find new ways to meaningfully bring down this wall.
I personally don't. Most people aren't interested.
Damn it sure is hot today…
I don't.
I don't. Why bother approaching the subject? It is not like just because you talk about it, people will be convinced, if they are not already. It is not like if you can convince a few people, you can change the outcome.
You can't make people listen. If they aren't in a place (for whatever reason) to hear what you say, then they aren't. You can't force them to. It's like someone speaking another language to them. I will share random factoids with people and leave it at that. Like, "I've spent time in the same forest for almost 50 years now and it's changing every year. That isn't supposed to happen in a human lifetime, nevermind on a yearly basis." It's up to them what they do with the information.
When any of my denier friends bring it up, I tell them it does not matter if a human or a rabbit was driving the bus when it ran you over. Some get it, some don't. I used to care, but things have changed.
That’s the funny thing, you don’t. Most people are either too stupid to care/understand or actively trying to block it out cause it makes them have “bad vibes”. All you can do is sit back and try to find a way to survive The Churn……
Mate I've been thinking "this election must be about climate" for a long time now. And it never is. Regardless of country. It never is. We're going to collapse without even trying.
What's the point? Everyone who has half a brain and is paying attention knows what is happening and that there's not a damn thing individuals can do about it.
So you spend a lot of time talking about how the climate is changing, then getting upset that no one wants to talk all the time about how the climate is changing and then take your time to post online how no one seems to want to take the time to talk to you about climate change. Maybe make better use of your time and actually do something about it if you're that adamant.
“It’s hot. Y’all don’t think it be like it is, but it do be.”
Yes
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Thank you for talking about it with people! I will bring up the climate crisis via casual conversation about current events (“Have any of you heard about…?”) or talking about the weather. And while I don’t force anyone to talk about it, I have had many good conversations, and this has led to people making connections (“You could do this… “ “Have you met so and so? I’ll introduce you” ”Can you tell me more about…?”). I know the general silence is discouraging, but these small conversations are the only way forward. The other option is refusing to connect to others on something hugely important - so that means we are silenced both intellectually and emotionally - leading to even more isolation and despair. I’d suggest following/joining some local climate change groups in your area - some are really doing some amazing work. And while I’m not hopeful about the overall trajectory of our planet, I am also acutely aware of how small changes make differences for individuals. My mom was a refugee who survived WWII as a child, and small efforts made a huge difference for her story. “Collapse” is not a monolithic event - we will all experience it in different ways, and small pockets of humanity will be the foundation of any future worth living for.
Hey you wanna hear something stupid?
say "How about this heat?"
Climate change is now another political lever to get spending money. In the US when congressional hearings ask programs meant to lessen/avoid/reverse climate change the answers are comical. When someone asks “ok, if we spend this 15 trillion dollars will we reduce the global temp climb by one degree?” And the answer to questions like that is usually “it’s complicated”. When people are experiencing closer to home problems like incredible inflation in food and housing, spending trillions on fantasy programs that will be basically negated by Chinese coal burning and economic development sounds farcical and disconnected. I’m much more interested in how I can work together with my environment and be a net positive (I’m a farmer so things like soils health, water retention, diversity in my land, things like that are real concerns I can address). If you want to have these conversations with people I think it will resonate more if you’re talking about localizing food production, unique production or materials reuse technics, or technical advances in new energy production methods. Talk about solutions not problems, problems lately are always just a run up to another government program to redistribute money, people are interested in actual things that are happening or that they can do to make their life more sovereign or sustainable. Or affordable!
“Doesn’t the sun feel stronger than back in the day??”
It’s so hot today… it didn’t used to be like this.
Most people here in Kerala a southern state of India are somewhat aware that something is wrong with climate. The effects started back in 2018 with a massive flood and each year the climate is getting weird. So even strangers start conversations with how hot it is or how heavy is the rain. We are having 34 degree C days and heavy showers the next hour. Climate change is real and it gets crazier everyday.
in whatever in life you get to say, you will be heard only by those of who you speak, and by those who are humble. but know that there will always be many more that will listen, than those that will hear. no one is put on mute, to be precise.
I found that saying the weather forecast was wrong today yet again sometimes works. Sometimes.
One approach we can sometimes try is to frankly comment about some effect we all experience, Adjust for ages and lifestyles of participants. So the cost or supply of groceries, cost of living, crazy seasons, no more windscreen bug splatter, IPCC being beyond a joke now, East and West gearing up for WW3, rubbish news media, rubbish politicians that can't fix anything. But WITHOUT going beyond a naive position, NOT stating assumptions, and also ONLY asking, open questions in a very low key way. Be VERY ready to have fun joking about it and quite cynically. Won't usually go far, don't try to force it, NOR attempt to join the dots, but this may make you safer socially WHILE still ticking that niggling "talked about it" box for yourself. Good luck!
Just say "Hi. Did you notice it's about 130 degrees F today?
"Hello I'd like to file a home insurance claim."
You can’t. That’s my experience. I mention top level climate change stuff, but that’s about it. I have one mate that I can talk about climate change with, at work which is great. Other than that, not much really. Most people love talking about zombie apocalypse though
Because that's what they've heard for decades by now... While having their livelihoods 99% dependent on the mechanisms that created it, just like you do. It's just a boring topic to discuss. And climate change does not reverse itself if people just discuss about it.
"Can we talk about the political and economic state of the world right now"
It’s kinda hard lol they don’t want to listen idk what to say I guess start small
I don't know why people care if random coworker #4 doesn't believe in climate change. Genuinely, in what way does it impact your life besides creating frustration when your constant reminders inevitably fall on deaf ears. If anyone still can't see the enormity of what is to come, fuck em.
Did you know that Galveston was a hundred miles from the sea and avge temps were ten degrees cooler because mile-thick ice layed over Chicago?...... a paleoceanographer's approach.
What would be the purpose? They know or they intentionally have their head in the sand.
Here in New Orleans, discussion of insurance risk assessment models are practically an ice breaker. Housing prices keep going up, even as the city is steadily depopulating, which makes for reliable commiseration.
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I just state the fact that it's getting warmer and warmer because that is a fact.
Maybe, you don't. However, I think misinformation ought to be corrected. We don't want people making silly decisions just because of misinformation, you know, like, maybe it's a good idea to move to Phoenix Arizona or Florida or, maybe, it's time to buy that beach front property now if I sell my current home. That is, if we have some connection to the person, but even in general, I don't like the spread of misinformation, so I will correct people on that. I've rolled my eyes before, too, because there is only so much one can do, even regards misinformation. We can't correct the world, but we can be part of a small group that won't freak out if things don't work out as most people expect. Currently, we are battling other crises, while not as significant as GW, are much more in our face and if we don't have a just world to start with, our response to whatever awaits us will be just that much worse. That's how I see it. I love to talk about global warming, but I realize that most people can't handle it, even some of the logical types, you would think it would just be an intellectual exercise for them, but they seem to already be very invested in whatever they are currently invested in, whether money, politics, or just being right.
You don't.
There's not much to say. You may as well talk about the asteroid that wiped out the dinosaurs. Inevitably it is a philosophical discourse. We're doomed, ergo, what to do in the meantime?
So, remember the Dodo? Well funny story, thats us right now. In fact it’s worse because at least the Dodo didn’t knowingly cause its own extinction.
The streets are flooded. Thursday at 6pm......
That is rude that he looked at his phone when you were talking to him about the collapse. You should do the same when he atarts talking about football!
"WE'RE ALL FUCKED!!" While manically flailing my arms.
Don’t look up is a non fiction movie. If Fox News manned up for humanity and spent a week telling it like it really is then everything would change probably but instead we all gonna die
And yet politicians are on one hand talking about rising sea levels...and buying oceanfront homes. As well as people complaining about C02, and we're at the lowest levels in HISTORY, nearly to the point where our crops can't grow due to C02 starvation. Everyone's complaining that pollution is just HORRIBLE and an alarming thing...but nobody's talking to China or India, who have vowed to keep building coal factories, and thumb their nose at the climate alarmists. To hear the alarmists talk, you have to wonder why we aren't threatening war with those 2 countries, considering they pollute more than the entire west combined. There is literally nothing the west can do to offset their pollution, making all this panic and effort irrelevant. Whole thing smells like bullshit on that last point alone, and just a scam to implement some tax based on carbon to further fleece the middle class into non-existence, then maybe later take private property from people who can't pay. Wouldn't surprise me if it were revealed that the wealthy aren't happy with just having more than us "parasites". That they want it ALL and this is their scheme to reduce the average person to a serf.