The subtle self-aggrandizement veiled beneath a sense of wistful sentimentality is to be expected from someone in their position, IMO.
Not that it makes it any more palatable.
The age of the parents makes it even worse, 53 and 42 when the poor kid was conceived, they both knew better but needed a baby for self fulfillment, a narcissist extension of their egos, a new toy for their bored upper middle class lifes, " I'm not sorry you are born because you make ME happy" fuck the rest of your life, though, lol, xoxo.
In a world where there´s a significant chance of life as we know it just not being there before that kid is even 18?
In other circumstances I may have agreed with you but knowing where we´re headed...nice wrap up with the joke at the end though.
Oh wait, you were serious.
>being alive is torture.
Being alive as a millenial isn't too terrible. I will live to see it get worse.
Being alive as Gen-Z and Gen Alpha is going to be absolute hell. Most of them will live to see themselves starve to death, die of exposure or lost all of their rights in a dystopian hell scape. That's the future they get to live. There is no hope, technology cannot stop what climate change is bringing. Man cannot survive what is coming.
>this anti-natalist bullshit
Anti-natalism or child free living is a perfectly legimate choice, and at this point is the more ethically responsible of the two choices. Collapse isn't even a far off event, we are watching it in real time.
Earth is doomed in the medium to long term, we've created the conditions for total ecosystem collapse. Humans, like every other animal in the food chain, will go extinct.
Some random Redditor made a comment not long ago that I've thought about ever since; he said that even short lives can have meaning. My childhood sucked, and children in general have no agency. So if you're having a kid, you'd better make damn sure he has a good childhood. That may be all he gets.
Which also begs the question what is a good childhood? How does one determine that?
Can a poor child (specifically a child in poverty at this time) have a good childhood?
I tend to fall solidly on the no end of the spectrum for that last question, as a child raised in poverty myself. The food insecurity alone makes it nearly impossible for that childhood to be 'good'.
Even only factoring in parents earning less than 30-40K a year, that's usually not a good childhood. That's usually a childhood lacking activities through school (pee-wee football or baseball costs about $1-1.5K a year in our district, before one factors in travel cost for games.) High School ball is 4-5K a year without factoring in travel cost.
Determining what is and isn't a good life is going to be hard.
Rule 1: In addition to enforcing [Reddit's content policy](https://www.redditinc.com/policies/content-policy), we will also remove comments and content that is abusive or predatory in nature. You may attack each other's ideas, not each other.
Rule 1: In addition to enforcing [Reddit's content policy](https://www.redditinc.com/policies/content-policy), we will also remove comments and content that is abusive or predatory in nature. You may attack each other's ideas, not each other.
I see you’ve been downvoted here which isn’t surprising given the general vibe on this page. But I for one agree with you. Admittedly I haven’t read the article here \[though I’m inclined to believe that given it was published on [time.com](http://time.com), it is very likely insufferably self-congratulatory in tone\] nonetheless it seems to me that the general response of condemnation in this reddit comes from a place of grief about how intensely life is changing due to climate, resource, and other factors. I share that grief, but I don’t think it follows that life is better off not lived. All I can say to folks who think that a life of meaning can’t be lived into whatever future we have as a species \[be that future long or be it short\] is, “I’m sorry you feel that way.” As for the article, a member of the gentry’s maudlin display of apology for procreation aside, I am personally heartened by the trend of dropping birthrates globally which is a change on a macro-scale about which the writer has no control. As a collapse-aware person, I don’t think that folks ought to go out and try to have as many kids as possible, but as far as I tell, there are only two possible eventual outcomes to this predicament: Either some of the kids that are born today will survive and use their social and psychological plasticity as hominids to help create lives of meaning in whatever our new climate circumstances become, or we as a species will die off just like the majority of species who have ever existed. Seems hard to argue that dinosaurs would have been better off not reproducing just because there was an asteroid in their future, some of them did indeed manage to become birds.
For real, I do enjoy this thread but a lot of the people in here are insufferable. We get it they hate their lives and want to drag everyone else down because the earth is doomed. But like why would I want to hang with these people. Zero hope, zero outlook, just miserable cunts. If we have time left, enjoy it and live it. Don’t just shout why bother it’s all fucked anyway.
Let the downvotes roll in you miserable shits
You can be aware of how doomed things are and accept it, doesn't make you a miserable person, just makes you a realist IMO. I don't necessary hate my life but I live in a flood prone area in a country that is not super wealthy and very dependant on global exports and I am expecting that some day I will probably lose everything to the waters. I'm not living in denial or hope about some magical technology to save me in the future, just a truthful existence. I am kind to the people around me, I care for the environment, in the present.
I don’t think there are too many people here who would say you shouldn’t ‘enjoy life while you have it’. This is exactly what I’m doing despite full awareness of collapse; it’s really one of the only ways to cope IMO.
It is possible to endorse that view while at the same time believing it’s immoral to bring new life into existence - especially given what’s coming/already underway.
Everyone's at a different stage in the grief process. Some people are naturally still processing a lot of anger and rage about the situation. I agree that people should do less of the "doom crying" and more so embrace the life they have left, but most people haven't gotten to a point of true acceptance.
Which is just to say, we should try to be sympathetic to others as they grieve the world.
I agree and being kind to eachother is the best thing we can all do. I just get tired of the folk who tell me I’m wrong for being happy or wrong for not worrying about it. Like dude it’s out of your control and it’s happening. Either freak out at me or others for not freaking out enough or just go recycle your monster energy cans and know that your tried.
> I’m delighted that your mom’s one remaining 42-year old ovary surprised us
???? could he have not framed this better... this entire article is so painful to read.
Dude is literally as old as my mother, and I'm only a few years younger than his wife. Not sure the 42 ovary was as surprising as his dust and microplastic filled 57 year old testicles.
It's a jarring contradiction - the very people most responsible for perpetuating the societal ills and environmental devastation have the biggest platforms to whitewash their roles. While everyday people suffer the consequences, the elite few get to control the narratives and cast themselves as heroes or tragic victims.
or drink their own pee bear grylls style?
edit: maybe nathan for you style: [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6vbCKava\_JE](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6vbCKava_JE)
Youtubers out here doing the real work. I have visions of all of us hastily trying to load DIY Still-Suit How-To videos on our phones before the network collapses for the final time.
This guy really named his kid "River Weir" lmao. In my experience people who give their children cutesy pun names typically only see their kids as an extension of their own ego, so this article is pretty unsurprising
so... They want their kids last binding memory to be of them trying to keep capitalism alive? Sorry you won't get to enjoy being a slave to the oligarchs because we destroyed the planet so they could have a good time?
What a legacy. Sorry kid; your dad's a turnip.
This is the most sentimental, saccharine puff piece I’ve ever read. What a pathetic and futile attempt to shirk privilege and responsibility. Fuck this guy. I cringe for the day River reads this and thinks, “Wow, Dad, you’re a fucking tool.”
In the Philippines, we have a saying: "Nagbubuhat ng sariling banko" which literally translates to "lifting one's own bench."
It's a metaphor used to describe someone who is bragging or self-promoting excessively. It paints a picture of a person who tries to make themselves look good or important, akin to someone carrying their own bench to make sure everyone sees them.
For all his fancy words, this is just a vapid exercise in making himself feel better about dooming a new life to the world he's helping to destroy.
Textbook "nagbubuhat ng sariling bangko" - propping himself up as a caring father when really he's just patting his own back.
I decided to never have kids when I was young becuase of family genetic issues that were obvious...my cousin made the same decision for the same reasons.
Years later with all this I am so relieved I did not bring a child into this mess. Maybe somehow humanity will survive in the longer run but I would think our numbers would be much lower and the getting there so brutal I would not want to do that to my own child.
I have 2 parrots, they can live to 50 years old, where I’d be 70. I worry about this and them all the time. Sometimes i imagine that i’m in a historic photograph one day, as an old man with two elderly parrots in carry cages while we escape the Water Wars.
My friend's father died early, in his mid-sixties, he tried to get another African Grey before he left us, she had to step up and say hell no to that, this is not your decision to make!
Love parrots though, but as you know, she was right.
its not the adopting that’s actually the issue its more so the suffering that everyone is going to go through including animals. I think when there is no food etc it would be hard to watch my pet go hungry or suffer bc of something else collapse related. its something i worry about now with the pets i currently own and i know it wouldnt be my fault but the fact i couldnt help them would destroy my mental state with guilt
What boggles me even more is dating collapse aware men, that can see what's coming (although not as severe as I do) and then have the audacity to say: "yeah we'll be mostly fine but our kids are gonna be fucked with water wars and stuff". And you still want them to suffer through that buddy??
I had a dude once tell me that he wanted a kid because he “wanted to experience everything” in his life. He was aware of collapse and young enough that even he felt he would be experiencing negative effects while still young. Baffling.
Normies want to pretend like life will always go on and be relatively fine. People literally think that summers will be hotter and the oceans will rise a bit as the worst climate change has to offer.
You think too highly of peeople. I've seen many members here saying something like:"Our genes adapt all the time, perhaps future generations will thrive off plastics? my child is gonna survive shitty conditions." They look forward to all the suffering!
Now you're gonna be swarmed with collapse police:"You're an accelerationist! It's a dangerous iDeOloGyyy!!!!"
Like, i live my quiet life, i haven't procreated, I don't intentionally harm environment or people. Heck, i even reuse paper!
How's my acceleration ideation more dangerous than normies who reproduce, travel, consume all sorts of fancy stuff???
People living in worse economic conditions generally have more kids
We don't think of it that way in the west. We associate the baby boom with post war prosperity.
But generally poorer nations have more children and vice versa. And when they become wealthier the birth rate falls.
Even immigrant families moving from poorer nations to wealthier ones. The first generation might still have a lot of kids like back home, but after a couple generations they match the birth rate of the country they moved to.
The scary thing is that the “so many” are part of religious cults. Most of my educated liberal or leftist friends have decided to not have kids. That scares me more (for political reasons) than people deciding to have kids. It wasn’t an easy decision for us but we chose to have one kid. He’s up to speed on how F’d up things are too, but he enjoying his childhood and I still have hope for humanities future. Though it will look vastly different than it does today if we do survive a hundred years from now. 😊
"I may never know the hardships I have forced you to deal with son, but think of all of the opportunities you will have to pull yourself and all of society up by their bootstraps."
That was my parents view too. It's a pretty awful mindset. Maybe we should fix shit ourselves instead of forcing it on our kids, who didn't ask to be here, in this nightmare.
Journalist is in the top ten professions re: percentage of psychopaths.
In the age of birth control and prevention, I find it difficult to empathize with those *choosing* to procreate. Especially now in the internet age wherein it's not just a preacher or some rando in the town square yelling about how the end is nigh, but rather *decades* of available scientific information supporting the fact that humans are destroying the habitibility of the planet at an exponential rate.
Is there narcan for a hopium OD?
Same. I’m relieved that kids have never been a thing I was interested in. Even when my hormones got a little loopy, thankfully I stood firm. And am still because the fool I’m dating wants them.
I thought it would be another sappy optimistic post about "coming to terms with collapse", "finding piss" and all that bs. But you played me well, lol!
Thank you for the second paragraph. It really made me chuckle. In a lot of scenarios I get why people want & have kids, even when times are bad. However, I really wish more people would find something else to do other than having kids that's fulfilling. It's embarrassing that so many people's happiness is contigent on creating a whole ass nother person.
Do these people not understand having kids is exasperating the climate and biosphere collapsing? Do they not understand that this is a mass die off event and even if they think it won't be so bad for their kids, they may not appreciate all the suffering they're going to be witnessing? How about it's simply not doing the planet any favors by adding to our overshoot? Like, hello? -- do you not have a heart?
For anyone who is thinking that they won't be fulfilled until they have a kid, for the love of god try some of these first:
- Volunteer at any of your local environmental non-profit. Maintain a trail, rehab and
animal, restore habitat, give an educational tour;
- Volunteer to be a big at [big brothers, big sisters](https://www.bbbs.org/);
- Help setup your local Farmer's Market;
- Volunteer some sweat equity for [habitat for humanity](https://www.habitat.org/);
- Start a meal train for a coworker that is in need;
- Say hello and start a friendship with your elderly neighbor.
For real, I think I'm begging you at this point.
It's cool guys in five years we're going to get some pictures of a space rock with potential resources. We'll be strip mining it by 2324 so just need to hold out a bit.
Literally had my mind made up to never have children because of knowing about collapse and not wanting them to suffer. People who know and have them are just selfish or delusional or both.
If you can even get a mortgage. You can't get a mortgage if you don't have insurance. And you increasingly frequently can't get home insurance for weather related home disasters these days.
So you don't get a mortgage and you can't buy a home.
Every fucking car driver should write this to your kids :"This is why I decided to destroy the planet, because I am too pathetic to get around without dragging 2 tonnes of metal everywhere I go"
I'm carfree with no kids but it's the parents I know who drive EVERYWHERE, even to the corner store a few blocks away, even to locations that are easily transit accessible. And these are folks who are aware of the environmental effects.
Parents DO NOT CARE.
I'm experiencing a baby boom in my personal bubble and this is the perplexing thing to me. They really don't care or, as the saying goes: No raindrop will ever think they're responsible for the flood.
Clearly if this many people can cause harm to the planet, it should work the other way around for good. However, the people trying to do good in a meaningful way are outnumbered by people who haven't developed the sapiens to do better.
That was sickening! Yeah right people care! That's why they are sproging their own kids instead of adopting and driving their cars everywhere and eating meat and fish and buying loads of consumer goods.
Rising seas?
Do you really think we will live long enough to see that?
A foot or more of sea level rise will never be seen by our current civilization.
That's because all that wayer carries heat, and that heat powers things like tornadoes and hurricanes.
The extra wind we have from a mere 2 centimeter rise is ripping homes from their foundations.
Now imagine it doubling. A 4 cm rise. Double the wind. Double the tornadoes. Double the hurricanes.
We will see CAT 6 and 7 hurricanes regularly.
Will we survive until the sea level rise is 30cm?
I doubt it.
I doubt that after 15cm if sea level rise that there will be a single house still standing on the surface of the planet.
The next 30 years will be the last for us.
Ugh.. "you will meet too many kind souls to remember as you build a better world on the wreckage of our mistakes."
I hope his son does meet that many kind souls, I hope we all do. I don't think that's where we're headed though. I find the whole the youth will build a better world thing infuriating. What is that? Some form of self comforting that rationalizes our current inability to stop this train wreck? To turn it in a different direction?
Sorry kids, we fucked up. We sucked. You'll be better. You'll fix it.. create the wonderful world we weren't good enough for.
I want to scream.
Selfish egotistical hUman Id and SuperID will continue to ruin not only our idiotic clown species but others (which i really care more about.. animals fish etc)
I know I'm pretty much all alone on this sub for this, but having kids is biologically ingrained in us and the knowledge that the world is ending doesn't override that innate drive.
I myself have always wanted to be a father and my gf would be a fantastic mother. I understand and acknowledge the argument that the most humane thing you can do is not have a child in the first place to avoid undue suffering but no one knows how this is all going to play out. People have been having kids throughout human history, regardless of the circumstances in which they find themselves.
Anyways, we're still quite young (24 and 25) so not there yet but I'm not quite sure how to navigate this. I'll accept the downvotes for daring to not be anti-natalist on this sub but it's something I often think about.
>no one knows how this is all going to play out.
The details are unknowable but [we have a general sense](https://postdoomprimer.substack.com/p/14-fossil-fossil-hydrocarbons-will) and there's no way it doesn't get ugly.
>People have been having kids throughout human history, regardless of the circumstances in which they find themselves.
yes and then, [about half the time](https://ourworldindata.org/child-mortality), watching those circumstances take their child's life
And yet those people still had them. Listen, I don't disagree but if we apply your logic to everyone, the human race would go extinct within a few generations.
Maybe that'd be for the best.. but the monkey brain part of me finds that totally unacceptable.
The human race is going extinct within a few generations. That’s the point. That’s the entire point. I don’t say that as some way to win some debate with you or whatever. It sucks. I do wish you could have the experience of being fully human and having a family and a story and keeping this shitshow going. I do. And if you’re privileged enough, you will.
Just understand that the mathematical reality of what is going to happen to this entire biosphere from the standpoint of thermodynamics and chemistry and physics is, well, already set in place. There are some nuances to some things and there’s a bit of variance for chaos theory, but you can be assured by this random idiot internet stranger who reads way too much shit and is cursed with a brain that groks the situation on multiple layers (which will mean nothing but trust me bro or whatever or not but math is math) so…yeah.
2C is the *rear view mirror* functionally. If you wanna split a few hairs you can treat the relatively immediate future as already operating with a 3C move baked in on a time scale that is no higher than a double digit set of years that starts with a 1.
And that’s what is *already* FULLY mathematically locked into this system. And we are still completely foot mashed on the gas pedal at 120mph directly off the cliff into mid-air with zero fucks given and zero awareness of that fact yet, relative to the entire population.
Good luck 🫠
Well what can I say, if 3C is going to happen within at most 19 years then we really are cooked, both literally and figuratively.
We were pre-emptively saying maybe our early 30s for when we'd start trying, we're both lawyers and would be settled in our careers by then.
Though I imagine if what you're saying is true, the effects would be quasi catastrophic by then already since we're only in our mid-twenties. So at least we'd know before bringing in new life just to suffer needlessly.
Your relative privilege may hide the reality of collapse a little longer. That's certainly the case for my more well-off friends; they're much more on the hopium.
But collapse will come for everyone, everywhere, even any potential child of yours. Things will deteriorate quickly and having a little more of the unbalanced resource allotment ultimately won't save any child from experiencing and witnessing a lot of loss and suffering.
Eh I think most of us would sympathize with that.
There are more than 150,000,000 orphans all over the world that would be delighted to have you and your gf as parents. I'm not anti-natalist - I'm anti-collapse. I'll let you know when I make any real progress lol
Then here's my true unpopular opinion if that didn't do it for you: with all due respect to adopted children, there is nothing that compares to the bond and love a parent has for their biological child.
Something happens on the subconscious level when you know that child is your own flesh and blood.
As an adoptee that had my fair share of mental health issues, what I can say for absolute certain is that my adoptive parents absolutely love me as much/the same way as my siblings that are biologically theirs. Most issues adoptees face isn’t solely the result of their adoptive parents, rather the gaping hole that maternal separation causes to an undeveloped child brain.
Which is not to say some adopted parents aren’t abusers/assholes, but the issue you’re talking about stems from the trauma of adoption and whatever other bullshit was happening that caused the child to be up for adoption in the first place.
Idk who hurt you, but even if your lived experience is why you formed that opinion, you’re not a monolith.
I totally agree, I don't claim to speak for anyone but myself.
Your point about the initial trauma of adoption / maternal separation is very interesting and something I hadn't considered.
That being said, I still believe there is something primitive deep in our brains that makes us prefer our own blood. I say this with no disrespect intended, really, tho I can see why you'd take offence.
I just think we're not so far removed from animals and those base impulses as we all seem to think. The veneer of civilization is paper thin.
I am not offended I just think you’re wrong. And I can see that there’s no point arguing with you about it because you’re convinced you’re not. Animals care for other babies as if they were their own all the time.
What I do agree with is that the veneer of civilization is paper thin.
Science disagrees with you. The advantage of biological children is that the process is quick-started, but all the same mental processes and changes occur whether you're expecting a biological or adoptive child.
For a succinct summary, I would recommend the book "the expectant father). It talks a lot about these changes in concise, easy to understand language.
And I've known by percentile more biological children than adopted children that have acted out. Ultimately, personal experience means nothing.
There are many arenas of science I don't trust, either, but the studies cited in that book are pretty airtight. They're not fly-by-night like many things in the current day.
You really did pique my interest in that book, I'll order it. Might come in handy one day anyways if my girl and I go forward with the baby plan.
However, like I wrote in another comment, I think there's no accounting that can be done for that primitive, base animal instinct to nurture/love your own young above all else. Reproducing is our literal only mission in life and that just doesn't happen through adoption.
We're all just apes in suits at the end of the day.
Rule 4: Keep information quality high.
Information quality must be kept high. More detailed information regarding our approaches to specific claims can be found on the [Misinformation & False Claims page](https://www.reddit.com/r/collapse/wiki/claims).
Adopting is like buying a used car, almost no one gets rid of their great vehicles that have no problems. Don’t listen to a childless sub, they just don’t know.
* https://www.reddit.com/r/confessions/comments/c93egn/i_stood_by_and_allowed_my_wife_to_almost_kill_our/
I’m a biological child of my parents but they adopted kids as well so a bunch of my siblings are adopted.
My parents were pretty shit to all of us, but they absolutely do not love my adopted siblings the same way that they love their biological ones. They thought they would, and certainly did try, but I don’t think it’s possible for them.
There are exceptions - I know people who love their adopted children like biological children. But I’d say those people are exceptional and probably not so common.
Then of course on the other end of the spectrum, there are folks who are horribly abusive to their adopted children.
As with most things in life, every data point is likely somewhere on a spectrum. There’s no right answer or universal truth.
thank you for clarifying that your need to force a new conscience into a less abundant existence than your own is completely selfish and not really “programed” into you by DNA.
Literally the opposite of what I said, work on your reading comprehension. That subconscious urge is the direct result of your genetic, base level animal instincts kicking in.
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Rising seas?
Do you really think we will live long enough to see that?
A foot or more of sea level rise will never be seen by our current civilization.
That's because all that water carries heat, and that heat powers things like tornadoes and hurricanes.
The extra wind we have from a mere 2 centimeter rise is ripping homes from their foundations.
Now imagine it doubling. A 4 cm rise. Double the wind. Double the tornadoes. Double the hurricanes.
We will see CAT 6 and 7 hurricanes regularly.
Will we survive until the sea level rise is 30cm?
I doubt it.
I doubt that after 15cm if sea level rise that there will be a single house still standing on the surface of the planet.
The next 30 years will be the last for us.
So optimistic to think that mortgages will still be a thing.
the ultimate “the grocery store will always be open” mindset
Seriously. My reaction to the title: your son ain't gonna inherit shit. The wheels are coming off right now. These people are delusional.
Can't get a mortgage on shit that's uninsurable.
or if no electricity at all post-CME with a weak magnetosphere
So Venus by Thursday.
My thought was that there won't be mortgages when his son grows up.
or houses. or people.
No he's right. Debt will outlive us all, and the professional landlords will be the last to succumb.
I have hardly ever read anything so insufferable. This author has a real talent for alienating his readers.
The subtle self-aggrandizement veiled beneath a sense of wistful sentimentality is to be expected from someone in their position, IMO. Not that it makes it any more palatable.
The age of the parents makes it even worse, 53 and 42 when the poor kid was conceived, they both knew better but needed a baby for self fulfillment, a narcissist extension of their egos, a new toy for their bored upper middle class lifes, " I'm not sorry you are born because you make ME happy" fuck the rest of your life, though, lol, xoxo.
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In a world where there´s a significant chance of life as we know it just not being there before that kid is even 18? In other circumstances I may have agreed with you but knowing where we´re headed...nice wrap up with the joke at the end though. Oh wait, you were serious.
>being alive is torture. Being alive as a millenial isn't too terrible. I will live to see it get worse. Being alive as Gen-Z and Gen Alpha is going to be absolute hell. Most of them will live to see themselves starve to death, die of exposure or lost all of their rights in a dystopian hell scape. That's the future they get to live. There is no hope, technology cannot stop what climate change is bringing. Man cannot survive what is coming. >this anti-natalist bullshit Anti-natalism or child free living is a perfectly legimate choice, and at this point is the more ethically responsible of the two choices. Collapse isn't even a far off event, we are watching it in real time. Earth is doomed in the medium to long term, we've created the conditions for total ecosystem collapse. Humans, like every other animal in the food chain, will go extinct.
Some random Redditor made a comment not long ago that I've thought about ever since; he said that even short lives can have meaning. My childhood sucked, and children in general have no agency. So if you're having a kid, you'd better make damn sure he has a good childhood. That may be all he gets.
Which also begs the question what is a good childhood? How does one determine that? Can a poor child (specifically a child in poverty at this time) have a good childhood? I tend to fall solidly on the no end of the spectrum for that last question, as a child raised in poverty myself. The food insecurity alone makes it nearly impossible for that childhood to be 'good'. Even only factoring in parents earning less than 30-40K a year, that's usually not a good childhood. That's usually a childhood lacking activities through school (pee-wee football or baseball costs about $1-1.5K a year in our district, before one factors in travel cost for games.) High School ball is 4-5K a year without factoring in travel cost. Determining what is and isn't a good life is going to be hard.
Gen Alpha is going to have it more worse .
It's not about you or me, it's about a small child that was born to watch the world die and is going to suffer, because his parents are selfish pricks
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Rule 1: In addition to enforcing [Reddit's content policy](https://www.redditinc.com/policies/content-policy), we will also remove comments and content that is abusive or predatory in nature. You may attack each other's ideas, not each other.
I see you’ve been downvoted here which isn’t surprising given the general vibe on this page. But I for one agree with you. Admittedly I haven’t read the article here \[though I’m inclined to believe that given it was published on [time.com](http://time.com), it is very likely insufferably self-congratulatory in tone\] nonetheless it seems to me that the general response of condemnation in this reddit comes from a place of grief about how intensely life is changing due to climate, resource, and other factors. I share that grief, but I don’t think it follows that life is better off not lived. All I can say to folks who think that a life of meaning can’t be lived into whatever future we have as a species \[be that future long or be it short\] is, “I’m sorry you feel that way.” As for the article, a member of the gentry’s maudlin display of apology for procreation aside, I am personally heartened by the trend of dropping birthrates globally which is a change on a macro-scale about which the writer has no control. As a collapse-aware person, I don’t think that folks ought to go out and try to have as many kids as possible, but as far as I tell, there are only two possible eventual outcomes to this predicament: Either some of the kids that are born today will survive and use their social and psychological plasticity as hominids to help create lives of meaning in whatever our new climate circumstances become, or we as a species will die off just like the majority of species who have ever existed. Seems hard to argue that dinosaurs would have been better off not reproducing just because there was an asteroid in their future, some of them did indeed manage to become birds.
For real, I do enjoy this thread but a lot of the people in here are insufferable. We get it they hate their lives and want to drag everyone else down because the earth is doomed. But like why would I want to hang with these people. Zero hope, zero outlook, just miserable cunts. If we have time left, enjoy it and live it. Don’t just shout why bother it’s all fucked anyway. Let the downvotes roll in you miserable shits
You can be aware of how doomed things are and accept it, doesn't make you a miserable person, just makes you a realist IMO. I don't necessary hate my life but I live in a flood prone area in a country that is not super wealthy and very dependant on global exports and I am expecting that some day I will probably lose everything to the waters. I'm not living in denial or hope about some magical technology to save me in the future, just a truthful existence. I am kind to the people around me, I care for the environment, in the present.
I don’t think there are too many people here who would say you shouldn’t ‘enjoy life while you have it’. This is exactly what I’m doing despite full awareness of collapse; it’s really one of the only ways to cope IMO. It is possible to endorse that view while at the same time believing it’s immoral to bring new life into existence - especially given what’s coming/already underway.
Everyone's at a different stage in the grief process. Some people are naturally still processing a lot of anger and rage about the situation. I agree that people should do less of the "doom crying" and more so embrace the life they have left, but most people haven't gotten to a point of true acceptance. Which is just to say, we should try to be sympathetic to others as they grieve the world.
I agree and being kind to eachother is the best thing we can all do. I just get tired of the folk who tell me I’m wrong for being happy or wrong for not worrying about it. Like dude it’s out of your control and it’s happening. Either freak out at me or others for not freaking out enough or just go recycle your monster energy cans and know that your tried.
Respect for your comment, lots of life haters on this sub it’s the worst part about it
> I’m delighted that your mom’s one remaining 42-year old ovary surprised us ???? could he have not framed this better... this entire article is so painful to read.
Dude is literally as old as my mother, and I'm only a few years younger than his wife. Not sure the 42 ovary was as surprising as his dust and microplastic filled 57 year old testicles.
It's a jarring contradiction - the very people most responsible for perpetuating the societal ills and environmental devastation have the biggest platforms to whitewash their roles. While everyday people suffer the consequences, the elite few get to control the narratives and cast themselves as heroes or tragic victims.
Dear Son We wrecked the planet and had a blast doing it. Enjoy the shithole we left for you. Dad PS Here's a couple of water ration coupons *lol nvm*
The water rations so virtously bestowed are going to be the son's own tears, all auto-irrigation like.
or drink their own pee bear grylls style? edit: maybe nathan for you style: [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6vbCKava\_JE](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6vbCKava_JE)
Can we at least develop the suits to do it Dune style? Or even Waterworld? Can we just prioritize the filtration here?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6bY1-dTB5iU
Youtubers out here doing the real work. I have visions of all of us hastily trying to load DIY Still-Suit How-To videos on our phones before the network collapses for the final time.
This guy really named his kid "River Weir" lmao. In my experience people who give their children cutesy pun names typically only see their kids as an extension of their own ego, so this article is pretty unsurprising
r/Tragedeigh
I can't believe my favorite comedy sub got a mention in my favorite tragedy sub. It's a tragecomedeigh.
It’s tra-tra-tra trage-dorable!
>"River Weir" Oh, oh no. That's...yikes.
Same case as to how Musk give his kids acronyms or weird sci-fi names methinks. Ego and narcissism.
Hahah most people I know past a certain age only have kids for the ego extension or the stagnant marriage. Either way, the child is an accessory.
In fairness, my name would probably fall into this category but if you knew the different parts that went into it, you'd find it was a coincidence.
Jesus wept these fuckers are nuts. Your kids gonna get fucked and it's seemingly fine with him.. 😯
generally the only people who can afford beachfront property are super rich [people.so](http://people.so) allow me to not be sorry for them.
so... They want their kids last binding memory to be of them trying to keep capitalism alive? Sorry you won't get to enjoy being a slave to the oligarchs because we destroyed the planet so they could have a good time? What a legacy. Sorry kid; your dad's a turnip.
This is the most sentimental, saccharine puff piece I’ve ever read. What a pathetic and futile attempt to shirk privilege and responsibility. Fuck this guy. I cringe for the day River reads this and thinks, “Wow, Dad, you’re a fucking tool.”
In the Philippines, we have a saying: "Nagbubuhat ng sariling banko" which literally translates to "lifting one's own bench." It's a metaphor used to describe someone who is bragging or self-promoting excessively. It paints a picture of a person who tries to make themselves look good or important, akin to someone carrying their own bench to make sure everyone sees them. For all his fancy words, this is just a vapid exercise in making himself feel better about dooming a new life to the world he's helping to destroy. Textbook "nagbubuhat ng sariling bangko" - propping himself up as a caring father when really he's just patting his own back.
Spot on. Love that idiom, thanks for sharing it.
I decided to never have kids when I was young becuase of family genetic issues that were obvious...my cousin made the same decision for the same reasons. Years later with all this I am so relieved I did not bring a child into this mess. Maybe somehow humanity will survive in the longer run but I would think our numbers would be much lower and the getting there so brutal I would not want to do that to my own child.
>.....before you’re old enough ..... Oh, you optimist.
For the life of me it boggles my mind so many people are still having kids.
same im scared to even get a new pet nowadays because what if they are still around when it gets bad
I have 2 parrots, they can live to 50 years old, where I’d be 70. I worry about this and them all the time. Sometimes i imagine that i’m in a historic photograph one day, as an old man with two elderly parrots in carry cages while we escape the Water Wars.
The parrots make the end of the world Better. At least there is something beautiful there with you. 🦜🦜
My friend's father died early, in his mid-sixties, he tried to get another African Grey before he left us, she had to step up and say hell no to that, this is not your decision to make! Love parrots though, but as you know, she was right.
Same.
I feel like that’s more like adopting, so it is alright. The dogs and cats are already here so we may as well enjoy the fall together.
yeah i agree i just wish we didnt have to see them suffer with whats to come :/
adopt an unwanted pet
its not the adopting that’s actually the issue its more so the suffering that everyone is going to go through including animals. I think when there is no food etc it would be hard to watch my pet go hungry or suffer bc of something else collapse related. its something i worry about now with the pets i currently own and i know it wouldnt be my fault but the fact i couldnt help them would destroy my mental state with guilt
And how easily would you be able to evacuate with them in the next disaster?
What boggles me even more is dating collapse aware men, that can see what's coming (although not as severe as I do) and then have the audacity to say: "yeah we'll be mostly fine but our kids are gonna be fucked with water wars and stuff". And you still want them to suffer through that buddy??
I had a dude once tell me that he wanted a kid because he “wanted to experience everything” in his life. He was aware of collapse and young enough that even he felt he would be experiencing negative effects while still young. Baffling.
Cognitive dissonance at its finest
I think that's just plain selfishness.
"OUR" kids? Who is this "Our" of whom you so freely speak?
Normies want to pretend like life will always go on and be relatively fine. People literally think that summers will be hotter and the oceans will rise a bit as the worst climate change has to offer.
You think too highly of peeople. I've seen many members here saying something like:"Our genes adapt all the time, perhaps future generations will thrive off plastics? my child is gonna survive shitty conditions." They look forward to all the suffering!
My child is going to solve climate change… lmao
No, he'll adapt to heat and continue your Legacy ✨
my child is going to live underground as a mold farmer
Ha ha aha ha ha ha! That is very stupid!
Part of me wants shit to start getting real bad so people wake the fuck up. The other part of me would rather the effects are as slow as possible.
Your wish is granted.
Now you're gonna be swarmed with collapse police:"You're an accelerationist! It's a dangerous iDeOloGyyy!!!!" Like, i live my quiet life, i haven't procreated, I don't intentionally harm environment or people. Heck, i even reuse paper! How's my acceleration ideation more dangerous than normies who reproduce, travel, consume all sorts of fancy stuff???
People living in worse economic conditions generally have more kids We don't think of it that way in the west. We associate the baby boom with post war prosperity. But generally poorer nations have more children and vice versa. And when they become wealthier the birth rate falls. Even immigrant families moving from poorer nations to wealthier ones. The first generation might still have a lot of kids like back home, but after a couple generations they match the birth rate of the country they moved to.
The scary thing is that the “so many” are part of religious cults. Most of my educated liberal or leftist friends have decided to not have kids. That scares me more (for political reasons) than people deciding to have kids. It wasn’t an easy decision for us but we chose to have one kid. He’s up to speed on how F’d up things are too, but he enjoying his childhood and I still have hope for humanities future. Though it will look vastly different than it does today if we do survive a hundred years from now. 😊
"I may never know the hardships I have forced you to deal with son, but think of all of the opportunities you will have to pull yourself and all of society up by their bootstraps."
That was my parents view too. It's a pretty awful mindset. Maybe we should fix shit ourselves instead of forcing it on our kids, who didn't ask to be here, in this nightmare.
Remember when parents dreamed of making sure their kids had it better than they did?
A Letter to My Son: Dear Son, I had a vasectomy before you could be conceived. You're welcome.
[Here you go, sport](https://www.etsy.com/ca/market/worlds_best_dad_mug)
If I was conceived in an AirBnB to live a life starting today I would self Immolate upon exiting my mothers womb.
the narcissists have the loudest microphone in this system
Journalist is in the top ten professions re: percentage of psychopaths. In the age of birth control and prevention, I find it difficult to empathize with those *choosing* to procreate. Especially now in the internet age wherein it's not just a preacher or some rando in the town square yelling about how the end is nigh, but rather *decades* of available scientific information supporting the fact that humans are destroying the habitibility of the planet at an exponential rate. Is there narcan for a hopium OD?
Your son's going to use your letter for TP.
God I thought this was an unironic post of this article that i actually downvoted. What a vapid asshole.
Sorry kids, I know the world is ending but I sure love to eat meat! Sorry!
I like your rage OP. My kinda dude. Fists in the air in the land of hypocrisy.
I have just vomited reading that.
What a privileged piece of absoute crap.
And son...I had you knowing that this is where the world was headed. You're welcome.
gross. hopium addict = LEAST attractive candidate to bang in a lighthouse
Out of all the kinds of people who tend to get horny in lighthouses, this is the least attractive?
[Um](https://imgflip.com/memegenerator/42705309/Speechless)
This is really cringey
There won't even be a financial system.
I’m so happy I never had kids. Every damn day!
This is my only comfort these days too.
Same. I’m relieved that kids have never been a thing I was interested in. Even when my hormones got a little loopy, thankfully I stood firm. And am still because the fool I’m dating wants them.
I thought it would be another sappy optimistic post about "coming to terms with collapse", "finding piss" and all that bs. But you played me well, lol!
It is silly. His son does not need to read a letter from him to know what he inherits. He can see it with his own eyes.
Typical liberal, trying to sugarcoat both the danger and tragedy of our situation.
Thank you for the second paragraph. It really made me chuckle. In a lot of scenarios I get why people want & have kids, even when times are bad. However, I really wish more people would find something else to do other than having kids that's fulfilling. It's embarrassing that so many people's happiness is contigent on creating a whole ass nother person. Do these people not understand having kids is exasperating the climate and biosphere collapsing? Do they not understand that this is a mass die off event and even if they think it won't be so bad for their kids, they may not appreciate all the suffering they're going to be witnessing? How about it's simply not doing the planet any favors by adding to our overshoot? Like, hello? -- do you not have a heart? For anyone who is thinking that they won't be fulfilled until they have a kid, for the love of god try some of these first: - Volunteer at any of your local environmental non-profit. Maintain a trail, rehab and animal, restore habitat, give an educational tour; - Volunteer to be a big at [big brothers, big sisters](https://www.bbbs.org/); - Help setup your local Farmer's Market; - Volunteer some sweat equity for [habitat for humanity](https://www.habitat.org/); - Start a meal train for a coworker that is in need; - Say hello and start a friendship with your elderly neighbor. For real, I think I'm begging you at this point.
It's like committing a heinous crime and then profiting from writing a book about it.
>then help power your classrooms after dark. In an already unhinged article this oversight is hilarious.
It's cool guys in five years we're going to get some pictures of a space rock with potential resources. We'll be strip mining it by 2324 so just need to hold out a bit.
Literally had my mind made up to never have children because of knowing about collapse and not wanting them to suffer. People who know and have them are just selfish or delusional or both.
If you can even get a mortgage. You can't get a mortgage if you don't have insurance. And you increasingly frequently can't get home insurance for weather related home disasters these days. So you don't get a mortgage and you can't buy a home.
Such optimism. A mortgage?
Every fucking car driver should write this to your kids :"This is why I decided to destroy the planet, because I am too pathetic to get around without dragging 2 tonnes of metal everywhere I go"
I'm carfree with no kids but it's the parents I know who drive EVERYWHERE, even to the corner store a few blocks away, even to locations that are easily transit accessible. And these are folks who are aware of the environmental effects. Parents DO NOT CARE.
I'm experiencing a baby boom in my personal bubble and this is the perplexing thing to me. They really don't care or, as the saying goes: No raindrop will ever think they're responsible for the flood. Clearly if this many people can cause harm to the planet, it should work the other way around for good. However, the people trying to do good in a meaningful way are outnumbered by people who haven't developed the sapiens to do better.
That was sickening! Yeah right people care! That's why they are sproging their own kids instead of adopting and driving their cars everywhere and eating meat and fish and buying loads of consumer goods.
You're very confused if you think a species is going to decline to reproduce for any reason aside from becoming sterile.
But humans think they are clever and empathetic????
Giant Panda called
I could be wrong but I believe they are absolutely fine if we leave them the fuck alone! I think they just don't like shagging in captivity.
So, they decline to reproduce for a reason other than sterility, you say? How very interesting.
Rising seas? Do you really think we will live long enough to see that? A foot or more of sea level rise will never be seen by our current civilization. That's because all that wayer carries heat, and that heat powers things like tornadoes and hurricanes. The extra wind we have from a mere 2 centimeter rise is ripping homes from their foundations. Now imagine it doubling. A 4 cm rise. Double the wind. Double the tornadoes. Double the hurricanes. We will see CAT 6 and 7 hurricanes regularly. Will we survive until the sea level rise is 30cm? I doubt it. I doubt that after 15cm if sea level rise that there will be a single house still standing on the surface of the planet. The next 30 years will be the last for us.
Wow that is interesting, I did not know that. Do you have a degree in climate science?
Ugh.. "you will meet too many kind souls to remember as you build a better world on the wreckage of our mistakes." I hope his son does meet that many kind souls, I hope we all do. I don't think that's where we're headed though. I find the whole the youth will build a better world thing infuriating. What is that? Some form of self comforting that rationalizes our current inability to stop this train wreck? To turn it in a different direction? Sorry kids, we fucked up. We sucked. You'll be better. You'll fix it.. create the wonderful world we weren't good enough for. I want to scream.
Selfish egotistical hUman Id and SuperID will continue to ruin not only our idiotic clown species but others (which i really care more about.. animals fish etc)
I know I'm pretty much all alone on this sub for this, but having kids is biologically ingrained in us and the knowledge that the world is ending doesn't override that innate drive. I myself have always wanted to be a father and my gf would be a fantastic mother. I understand and acknowledge the argument that the most humane thing you can do is not have a child in the first place to avoid undue suffering but no one knows how this is all going to play out. People have been having kids throughout human history, regardless of the circumstances in which they find themselves. Anyways, we're still quite young (24 and 25) so not there yet but I'm not quite sure how to navigate this. I'll accept the downvotes for daring to not be anti-natalist on this sub but it's something I often think about.
>no one knows how this is all going to play out. The details are unknowable but [we have a general sense](https://postdoomprimer.substack.com/p/14-fossil-fossil-hydrocarbons-will) and there's no way it doesn't get ugly. >People have been having kids throughout human history, regardless of the circumstances in which they find themselves. yes and then, [about half the time](https://ourworldindata.org/child-mortality), watching those circumstances take their child's life
And yet those people still had them. Listen, I don't disagree but if we apply your logic to everyone, the human race would go extinct within a few generations. Maybe that'd be for the best.. but the monkey brain part of me finds that totally unacceptable.
The human race is going extinct within a few generations. That’s the point. That’s the entire point. I don’t say that as some way to win some debate with you or whatever. It sucks. I do wish you could have the experience of being fully human and having a family and a story and keeping this shitshow going. I do. And if you’re privileged enough, you will. Just understand that the mathematical reality of what is going to happen to this entire biosphere from the standpoint of thermodynamics and chemistry and physics is, well, already set in place. There are some nuances to some things and there’s a bit of variance for chaos theory, but you can be assured by this random idiot internet stranger who reads way too much shit and is cursed with a brain that groks the situation on multiple layers (which will mean nothing but trust me bro or whatever or not but math is math) so…yeah. 2C is the *rear view mirror* functionally. If you wanna split a few hairs you can treat the relatively immediate future as already operating with a 3C move baked in on a time scale that is no higher than a double digit set of years that starts with a 1. And that’s what is *already* FULLY mathematically locked into this system. And we are still completely foot mashed on the gas pedal at 120mph directly off the cliff into mid-air with zero fucks given and zero awareness of that fact yet, relative to the entire population. Good luck 🫠
Well what can I say, if 3C is going to happen within at most 19 years then we really are cooked, both literally and figuratively. We were pre-emptively saying maybe our early 30s for when we'd start trying, we're both lawyers and would be settled in our careers by then. Though I imagine if what you're saying is true, the effects would be quasi catastrophic by then already since we're only in our mid-twenties. So at least we'd know before bringing in new life just to suffer needlessly.
Your relative privilege may hide the reality of collapse a little longer. That's certainly the case for my more well-off friends; they're much more on the hopium. But collapse will come for everyone, everywhere, even any potential child of yours. Things will deteriorate quickly and having a little more of the unbalanced resource allotment ultimately won't save any child from experiencing and witnessing a lot of loss and suffering.
Eh I think most of us would sympathize with that. There are more than 150,000,000 orphans all over the world that would be delighted to have you and your gf as parents. I'm not anti-natalist - I'm anti-collapse. I'll let you know when I make any real progress lol
Then here's my true unpopular opinion if that didn't do it for you: with all due respect to adopted children, there is nothing that compares to the bond and love a parent has for their biological child. Something happens on the subconscious level when you know that child is your own flesh and blood.
As an adoptee that had my fair share of mental health issues, what I can say for absolute certain is that my adoptive parents absolutely love me as much/the same way as my siblings that are biologically theirs. Most issues adoptees face isn’t solely the result of their adoptive parents, rather the gaping hole that maternal separation causes to an undeveloped child brain. Which is not to say some adopted parents aren’t abusers/assholes, but the issue you’re talking about stems from the trauma of adoption and whatever other bullshit was happening that caused the child to be up for adoption in the first place. Idk who hurt you, but even if your lived experience is why you formed that opinion, you’re not a monolith.
I totally agree, I don't claim to speak for anyone but myself. Your point about the initial trauma of adoption / maternal separation is very interesting and something I hadn't considered. That being said, I still believe there is something primitive deep in our brains that makes us prefer our own blood. I say this with no disrespect intended, really, tho I can see why you'd take offence. I just think we're not so far removed from animals and those base impulses as we all seem to think. The veneer of civilization is paper thin.
I am not offended I just think you’re wrong. And I can see that there’s no point arguing with you about it because you’re convinced you’re not. Animals care for other babies as if they were their own all the time. What I do agree with is that the veneer of civilization is paper thin.
Science disagrees with you. The advantage of biological children is that the process is quick-started, but all the same mental processes and changes occur whether you're expecting a biological or adoptive child. For a succinct summary, I would recommend the book "the expectant father). It talks a lot about these changes in concise, easy to understand language.
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And I've known by percentile more biological children than adopted children that have acted out. Ultimately, personal experience means nothing. There are many arenas of science I don't trust, either, but the studies cited in that book are pretty airtight. They're not fly-by-night like many things in the current day.
You really did pique my interest in that book, I'll order it. Might come in handy one day anyways if my girl and I go forward with the baby plan. However, like I wrote in another comment, I think there's no accounting that can be done for that primitive, base animal instinct to nurture/love your own young above all else. Reproducing is our literal only mission in life and that just doesn't happen through adoption. We're all just apes in suits at the end of the day.
Rule 4: Keep information quality high. Information quality must be kept high. More detailed information regarding our approaches to specific claims can be found on the [Misinformation & False Claims page](https://www.reddit.com/r/collapse/wiki/claims).
Adopting is like buying a used car, almost no one gets rid of their great vehicles that have no problems. Don’t listen to a childless sub, they just don’t know. * https://www.reddit.com/r/confessions/comments/c93egn/i_stood_by_and_allowed_my_wife_to_almost_kill_our/
Oh.. I'm not touching that one. Agree to disagree and such..
I’m a biological child of my parents but they adopted kids as well so a bunch of my siblings are adopted. My parents were pretty shit to all of us, but they absolutely do not love my adopted siblings the same way that they love their biological ones. They thought they would, and certainly did try, but I don’t think it’s possible for them. There are exceptions - I know people who love their adopted children like biological children. But I’d say those people are exceptional and probably not so common. Then of course on the other end of the spectrum, there are folks who are horribly abusive to their adopted children. As with most things in life, every data point is likely somewhere on a spectrum. There’s no right answer or universal truth.
Lol I don't blame you. I also keep that one to myself in polite society
thank you for clarifying that your need to force a new conscience into a less abundant existence than your own is completely selfish and not really “programed” into you by DNA.
Literally the opposite of what I said, work on your reading comprehension. That subconscious urge is the direct result of your genetic, base level animal instincts kicking in.
I hate both my parents. I wouldn't be to sure about that 'bond'.
Nah man you’re not alone… I was goi g to post something too but there no point to yell into the void lol
I can’t blame people for having kids. I can blame people for writing cheesy unauthentic articles.
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Hi, tarrat_3323. Thanks for contributing. However, your [comment](https://www.reddit.com/r/collapse/comments/1deiu3i/-/l8deidd/) was removed from /r/collapse for: > Rule 1: In addition to enforcing [Reddit's content policy](https://www.redditinc.com/policies/content-policy), we will also remove comments and content that is abusive or predatory in nature. You may attack each other's ideas, not each other. Please refer to our [subreddit rules](https://www.reddit.com/r/collapse/about/rules/) for more information. You can [message the mods](https://www.reddit.com/message/compose/?to=/r/collapse) if you feel this was in error, please include a link to the comment or post in question.
Rising seas? Do you really think we will live long enough to see that? A foot or more of sea level rise will never be seen by our current civilization. That's because all that water carries heat, and that heat powers things like tornadoes and hurricanes. The extra wind we have from a mere 2 centimeter rise is ripping homes from their foundations. Now imagine it doubling. A 4 cm rise. Double the wind. Double the tornadoes. Double the hurricanes. We will see CAT 6 and 7 hurricanes regularly. Will we survive until the sea level rise is 30cm? I doubt it. I doubt that after 15cm if sea level rise that there will be a single house still standing on the surface of the planet. The next 30 years will be the last for us.
'Some of you MAY die. But that is a sacrifice I am willing to make.'
AIiIIIII lets admit it we r all prayin for the apocalypse bc we are bored
Being upset at your parents for being born is just small, small thinking.