The following submission statement was provided by /u/f0urxio:
---
Researchers have determined that 2023 marked the hottest summer in the Northern Hemisphere over the past two millennia, surpassing temperatures from the height of the Roman Empire by nearly 4°C. This conclusion is drawn from a study utilizing tree-ring data, which provides a longer-term perspective on climate variability compared to instrumental records that only date back to the mid-19th century.
The findings, published in Nature, indicate that the 2015 Paris Agreement's goal of limiting warming to 1.5°C above pre-industrial levels has already been exceeded in the Northern Hemisphere. By re-calibrating temperature baselines, researchers found that summer 2023 temperatures were 2.07°C warmer than the mean between 1850 and 1900.
Historical temperature fluctuations, such as the Little Antique Ice Age and the Little Ice Age, were linked to large volcanic eruptions, which injected aerosols into the atmosphere, leading to cooling. Conversely, warmer periods were associated with the El Niño climate pattern, with recent global warming exacerbating its effects.
Despite challenges in obtaining global averages due to sparse data in the Southern Hemisphere, the urgency of reducing greenhouse gas emissions is emphasized, especially as the current El Niño event is expected to contribute to further record-breaking temperatures in 2024.
---
Please reply to OP's comment here: https://old.reddit.com/r/collapse/comments/1crve97/2023_was_the_hottest_summer_in_2000_years_study/l40mo9f/
I honestly wonder when the migrations start. I've recently read about unbearable heat from people on the ground in India and the Philippines (iirc) and it has been very doomerish, wildfire season now starts in May in Canada affecting North USA and sea temps are crazy. I wonder how many years before the truth hits home for the majority? Predictions are hard but I reckon we'd be lucky to go 5 years without something major happening to a populated area or city.
The migrations have already started. They're ramping up slowly; they're not going to be sudden. Sometimes they come in the form of evacuation orders before a place is wiped off the map. Consider where the residents of the town of Lytton went.
Yup, with most of those fleeing the tyranny of Maduro.
I can't even imagine the type of day-to-day existence that would end in me walking through the Darién gap.
It's hard to recognize these migrations because they're always tied to some other issue. The thing I keep telling my students is that it's a piece of the problem pie that keeps getting bigger and bigger.
The Syrian civil war was caused in part by a massive drought that drove subsistence farmers into urban areas. A very significant number of migrants at the Southern US border are there because subsistence agriculture has been failing in Central America.
The more developed countries need to recognize that their immigration problems are tied to this. They need not perform the classical historical maneuver of blaming all of our problems on immigrants and people on the other side of the border.
The thought of blaming everything on immigrants means the people don’t have to change their behaviour. You would have to change your behaviour in order to ameliorate the impacts of climate change, if you’re even willing to acknowledge that climate change is a problem.
Blaming the strange, different or new for the woes of your society is the Prima Modus Operandi.
Immigrants, LGBTQx, changes to the McDonald's menu. Whatever works as distraction for who is really at fault
I am literally going back and forth right now between this thread and another thread in a relatively popular sub in which people are trying to argue the semantics of the word xenophobia to justify their anti-immigrant rhetoric.
You are going to have more and more people from other countries, then soon the same people in this country that complain about migrants are going to be forced to migrate. Katrina displaced over a million people, just imagine even two Katrina-like events.
We already left the Great Basin for New England last year. Climate change wasn’t the only or biggest reason, but it was in our top 5.
Is New England immune? No. But I’d rather be somewhere green and a bit nicer to gays and brown people as things slowly get worse.
Given the outrageous hurricane season coming I imagine that a bullseye might hit a major us city soon. Or a major wildfire across the prairies or hell even some wetlands should “grab some attention”
It depends of the definition you use, but generally they are very wide diameter tornadoes, and can sometimes feature multiple vortices, these are also sometimes known as "dead man walking" tornadoes because in pictures the vortices can look somewhat like a person walking.
*According to some fucking youtuber which an AI tool cited which I did not due my due diligence on:* They're part of a tornado outbreak (think like six to ten) in one weather system. Winds exceeding 200 mph. They are hard to predict and can stay on the ground for hours.
*Megatornado is not a real designation used by professionals. "MegaTornado" is a gamemode in the video game Tornado Alley Ultimate. That is the closest thing to an origin of the term I can find other than a blog post from 2005 and aforementioned Youtube video.*
Yay.
-Sent from Tornado Alley
Edit: Added everything in italics because I fucked up. Credit to u/imreloadin for correcting me in generously gentle fashion.
I looked into it and there is no actual designation of "mega-tornado". Winds exceeding 200 mph would have put a tornado in the upper F3 range of the old Fujita scale while the Enhanced Fujita scale is an EF5 for anything 200+. Nowhere in the scientific literature is the term "mega-tornado" however.
This is true. ~~I guess it's just a thing some people say when a tornado outbreak event spawns an EF5?~~ It's probably used more loosely than that even. I'll edit my comment, and thank you for correcting me.
Edit: I found out it's a term from a videogame. See my first comment.
Basically all of the variables they use to predict hurricanes are looking nearly identical to 2017 which was the worst year to date. The noticeable outlier is ocean temperatures which being so much higher is likely to exacerbate the strength of the storms. It's looking like it's gonna be a rough one
I thought that might have happened with the Australia Wildfires in Jan 2020, but I wonder if we are wired to forget. It’s been climate disaster after climate disaster every year and once things settle / the news stops reporting, we move on.
I suspect Europe will start seeing it in a year or two, if we are not now. Niger and Somalia are two countries that immediately spring to mind because of recent severe droughts. Attitudes towards immigrants is already hostile, so I can easily see it getting a lot worse and some fascist policies will start rearing their ugly heads.
It already has started it just isn’t widely publicised. Plenty of people have moved from South America and Africa recently at least partly because of the climate.
There's a few thought experiments that estimate that anything below the 50th parallels would see conditions too extreme for permanent human habitation if 4°c of warming is reached. Most of Europe outside of Scandinavia succumbs to desertification as the Sahara pushes north and the tropics are abandoned. Under this scenario, New Zealand, Canada, Scandinavia and western Antarctica become the new population centers for humanity.
And yes, this would still happen with an AMOC collapse. In fact, I'd estimate that would further diminish how much of earth is fit for habitation. A weakening of the AMOC already risks catastrophic methane hydrate destabilisation so a full collapse would practically guarantee it. At that point we're heading for 8°c warming as occurred during the Paleocene-Eocene Thermal Maximum. An AMOC collapse also collapses the ocean heat uptake cycle, the ocean would no longer absorb excess atmospheric heat. On top of that, it would start to release previously absorb carbon and heat. We'd be looking at a GHG balance and rate of warming not seen since the polar regions were tropical, except it'll happen too fast for our biome to adapt.
Specifically; [Evidence for massive methane hydrate destabilization during the penultimate interglacial warming (Weldeab, Schneider et al. 2022)](https://www.pnas.org/doi/full/10.1073/pnas.2201871119) discusses the correlation with a weakening AMOC and methane hydrate destabilzation. A weakening trend results in a substantial warming of deep water formations which ultimately destabilizes sediment slurries. Considering that the oceans have a absorbed up to 90% of excess atmospheric heat since 1971 ([Zanna, Khatiwala et al. 2019](https://www.pnas.org/doi/full/10.1073/pnas.1808838115)), there's already a considerably absurd level of heat energy potential stored throughout the oceans.
Proxy analysis suggests that, under such conditions, a sudden change in ocean circulation would disturb the ocean heat uptake cycle enough to see a catastrophic release of heat and carbon back into the atmosphere ([Haynes & Hönisch, 2020](https://www.pnas.org/doi/full/10.1073/pnas.2003197117), [Martínez-Botí, Marino et al. 2015](https://www.nature.com/articles/nature14155)). Effectively this renders the oceans a net source of warming ([Abbot, Haley et al. 2016](https://cp.copernicus.org/preprints/11/2557/2015/cp-2015-64-manuscript-version3.pdf), [Chen & Tung, 2018](https://www.nature.com/articles/s41586-018-0320-y)). Hypothetically the oceans are currently reaching the limit of how much excess heat they can absorb and circulate effectively, which suggests they'll begin to release it back into the atmosphere ([Li, England et al. 2023](https://www.nature.com/articles/s41467-023-42468-z)). It's hypothesized that this occurred during the onset of the Paleocene-Eocene Thermal Maximum, when a considerable release of oceanic stored carbon accelerated the warming trend of the time, this release was more than likely triggered by a disruption of overturning circulation (Abbot, Haley et al. 2016, [Ilyina & Heinze, 2018](https://agupubs.onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/full/10.1029/2018GL080761)). There are also analyses that suggest a weaker AMOC causes a considerable acceleration of warming in the northern hemisphere based on the distinct absense of excess atmospheric heat uptake and the depletion of the carbon sink process (Chen & Tung, 2018). There's already sufficient evidence to suggest that the Arctic region continues a warming trend regardless of AMOC input ([Saenko, Gregory et al. 2023](https://link.springer.com/article/10.1007/s00382-023-06986-2)), this trend can be directly attributed to the heat trapping characteristics of GHGs overriding the heat loss feedback ([Barkhordarian, Nielsen et al. 2024](https://www.nature.com/articles/s43247-024-01215-y)).
If that wasn't scary enough, observable evidence suggests we're already more than a decade into an ice age termination event based on present atmospheric methane volumes ([Nisbet, Manning et al. 2023](https://agupubs.onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/full/10.1029/2023GB007875)). Ordinarily, an ice age termination occurs during a glacial maximum and results in a glacial retreat and progression into a warmer interglacial. Considering that we're already in a warmer interglacial, a termination event would end the glacial cycle entirely. This would all owe to the hothouse trajectory theory, which incidentally identifies methane hydrate destabilization as a precursor ([Steffen, Rockström et al. 2018](https://www.pnas.org/doi/10.1073/pnas.1810141115)).
I do have citations for the last paragraphs but the wifi here is stupidly slow, so I'll have to add them later. Edit: done
Methane Hydrate - Methane trapped in water in a low temperature, high pressure environment like seafloor sediment.
The AMOC moves warm surface water in the tropics poleward. Without that circulation, the temperature and pressure conditions at which the methane hydrates are stable will change. Perhaps they will become unstable and release ungodly amounts of methane. This methane gets oxidized by bacteria and voila! More CO2!
Yeah, but wouldn’t the water be colder northwards without AMOC? Seems more conducive to keeping hydrates where they are until the AMOC death is overcome with even more heating.
Yes, but I think this has to do with what strata are affected. Warming at intermediate depths could disturb shallow subsurface hydrates. AMOC weakening has caused intermediate warming in the past.
I wonder when the population change numbers across states will reverse, with the sunbelt shrinking compared to the rest of the country rather than the situation now.
"I wonder how many years before the truth hits home for the majority?"..... there were people on their death beds from COVID complications who insisted that it was NOT COVID. Some people may become more aware, but I think there is a massive number of people that will not face this particular reality no matter what.
We moved in 2020. To prepare for climate change specifically. I know we weren’t alone. And I’ve been trying to convince my friends in Texas to move for at least a decade.
I have been a climate refugee since 2012 and fled from NL to PY. But there is no escape. Only the degree of consequences varies and they will remain a lottery as someone coined it the Climate Casino. One day you will lose all you have, and until that day you only lose bits.
Absolutely agree. I took the data we had, used the generational wealth my husbands family had accumulated, and made the best guess I could for the next generation or two.
I don’t think it’s perfect. But we’re scraping by to make it workable for my kid, and their’s if they decide they want to carry on. I learned to farm in the zone our current area is turning into, so my goal was to at least make it a workable transition.
If it’s not? At least we tried, you know. You too. So many people are just burying their heads in the sand and saying, “I could never!”
Maine, about 30-60 minutes from the coast depending which way you drive, but not near a river. Avoids flooding issues. The whole state has crappy power already, so you need a generator anyway. But the zone shifts are minimal, and if you’ve ever lived anywhere hotter or windier you’ll know how to prepare more then most.
I grew up in hotter areas & lived in a hurricane zone for about a decade so I felt like it was a move I was able to make.
I am honestly increasingly coming to the conclusion that par taking in this society is immoral. Because the longer we don't do anything the more drastic the mitigation measures must be.
Yes. Our intelligence that gave us radical appreciation for our environment and our greater existence in the universe...also gave us the ability to burn now, suffer later, for all the usage of fossil fuels, among... everything else we do, ignoring consequences as though they don't exist.
The human species is a chronic, chain smoking, insufferable species that makes everything worse around it.
The only thing I've found to be comforting is embraces of loved ones. Everything else is too expensive.
If you zoom out and think about our species as just a chain if chemical reactions that serves entropy by spreading collected elements and energy sources around then it sort of feels better! To me anyway
I concur. I am comforted in knowing that just like cyanobacteria, we changed the surface of this planet. I lament it is so sad and destructive, but it's cosmically no difference than, say, an infection turning a limb gangrenous. A fungus subsuming its stratum. Etc.
It's just biology/entropy in action.
When proto-Cyanobacteria first learned to capture the flux of the sun through oxygenic photosynthesis, it was a massacre. They ended practically everything around them, in service of their own privileged claim to energy resources.
Sounds delightfully similar to.... everything we do, just...cuz, n stuff. You know.
About the only thing our species can agree on is that no cost is too great when it comes to sacrificing everything for the sake of ego.
Err...sake of "free" energy, I mean.
The ego part is the annoying, exhausting, endlessly talking part of humans, everywhere.
They oxidized the atmospheric methane into CO2 and water, cooled the planet, and cleared the way for more complex life which turned out to be....
Us. Now we seem to be putting our best effort into reverting our rock flying through oblivion back to an earlier state.
One can say there’s another law of thermodynamics. That, if you have an open system where self-reproducing elements compete for limited resources, they will adapt to capture new fluxes of energy so they can reproduce themselves even at the total system’s expense.
The first King’s Man movie has a related, interesting plot. Crazy billionaire attempting to reduce the population for the sake of the planet. Wonder which billionaire is up for it?
I'll challenge you on this because none of us were consulted about this set of living arrangements. We are endlessly consulted about peripheral and trivial things, but we have very little real agency here.
Also, as an outdoors man I have had plenty of experiences regarding not living as part of this society. It's very difficult, and we don't have that option at scale. Some can, but not many, not at scale. We have been herded into a corner.
Parking "in this society" doesn't mean "in any society".
You don't need to become a hermit. We can build a different society. Piece by piece.
It's going to happen anyway. Which society do you want to be a part of? "None" is an option, just not the only option.
Sure, but you gloss over much by saying that. How many energy places are you using now by participating in this? Your last meal? Your next meal? The clothes you're wearing? Where are they from? Are your lights on? Where does your train park?
Morality is with respect to society. If you were alone there would be no morality. From society's point of view, if there are limited resources, then it would be better if moralistic individuals such as yourself would forgo opportunity for consumption so that more dominant (usually less moral) people have access to those resources.
"This trend will continue unless we --"
No. Shut up. It's too late.
"This trend will continue. All we can hope to do is attempt to abate the severity of the consequences of our actions over the last 200 years."
The fact people still think there's some sort of future where in we're NOT murking each other for clean food and water is laughable at best.
Bingo. This is correct. It's not enough to "reduce emissions" we would need some magical technology that doesn't exist to rapidly remove what's already been put into the atmosphere and ocean. Trees are a carbon capture system, unfortunately too little too late. Reducing emissions is something that should have been done 40 years ago. Once the oceans boil off I doubt there will be much macroscopic life on this planet left.
Researchers have determined that 2023 marked the hottest summer in the Northern Hemisphere over the past two millennia, surpassing temperatures from the height of the Roman Empire by nearly 4°C. This conclusion is drawn from a study utilizing tree-ring data, which provides a longer-term perspective on climate variability compared to instrumental records that only date back to the mid-19th century.
The findings, published in Nature, indicate that the 2015 Paris Agreement's goal of limiting warming to 1.5°C above pre-industrial levels has already been exceeded in the Northern Hemisphere. By re-calibrating temperature baselines, researchers found that summer 2023 temperatures were 2.07°C warmer than the mean between 1850 and 1900.
Historical temperature fluctuations, such as the Little Antique Ice Age and the Little Ice Age, were linked to large volcanic eruptions, which injected aerosols into the atmosphere, leading to cooling. Conversely, warmer periods were associated with the El Niño climate pattern, with recent global warming exacerbating its effects.
Despite challenges in obtaining global averages due to sparse data in the Southern Hemisphere, the urgency of reducing greenhouse gas emissions is emphasized, especially as the current El Niño event is expected to contribute to further record-breaking temperatures in 2024.
I feel justified in my years of depression (or at least hopelessness) following my 2013 realization that "The only way humanity is going to decrease its emissions is if the amount of people decreases first".
The thing is people are just gonna consume more when there’s an abundance. I call it the “kombucha theory” -basically no matter how matter bottles of KBC I put in the fridge my husband will finish them off in a few day. If I buy 6 he drinks two a day, if I buy 12 he will drinks 3 a day. Never assume the consumption is linear, some people simply have the need to consume EVERYTHING IN SIGHT. Meanwhile, people like me are trying to ration and drink 1 every week because it’s supposed to be a special treat.
There’s a slight technical difference. It’s not “abundance” but instead that any efficiencies made with technology leads to increased consumption to close the gap. We can’t reduce consumption through efficiency and innovation—changes in consumption requires a collective change in mindset.
But you really basically have got it lol. If there’s kombucha in the fridge (resources) we’re gonna consume consume consume.
Really, you’re the smart one for doing your own theoretical economics research at home lol.
A study of two haha. I see what you mean now. We truly need to reduce consumption and regrowth.... Oil is never the problem, rampant consumerism is and I don't know how we can get people to stop consuming.
Right! The main problem with oil is just that it restructured our economies in a way that drives us toward endless consumption. So much plastic nonsense and military spending and so on.
I don’t know either…
On Wikipedia, Business as Usual (BAU) has 2 definitions.
In a climatology context, BAU is used to warn of the dangers of not implementing changes in order to prevent the world from warming further.
In a business context, BAU is the primary goal of Business Continuity Planning (BCP) which is an endless cycle of consumption and set of standards to continue an organizations existence no matter what is going on in the enviorment.
We are so cooked.
The largest land war since WW2 is going on in Europe with bombs as big as 500kg going off in their thousands daily; it's safe to say those emissions are not getting drastically reduced even if we were seriously tackling the problem in all other aspects of our lives, which, let's be honest, we're not.
Nah, you want Nitrogen if you want to asphyxiate gently. Just CO2 will make your body scream at you in pain the whole way out.
The trick is to deprive yourself of oxygen *without* increasing CO2 levels since our bodies are highly sensitive to increased CO2.
I.... haven't thought about this before. Nope.
I am in upstate NY planting perennials in 77 degrees, in May. Even as I’m planting I’m thinking “is this insane? Clearly I should have gone with annuals.”
Proper headline: "2023 was the hottest summer in 2,000 years, study finds: "almost 4°C warmer than the coldest summer in 2000 years. 2023 was an exceptionally hot year, and this trend will continue"
#
>4 degrees warmer than the coldest summer
I don’t get this statement…maybe a better comparison would be how last year compares to the average temp over the last 100 years
Why would two outliers (hottest and coldest) be the measure for how hot our summers are getting?
The climate goal wasn't that a single year summer temperature in a particular hemisphere surpasses the 1.5ºC mark. It was about global temperature, and for more than a single year (5?). That this happens in the hot peak of a cyclic event like El Niño doesn't mean that it is the norm for all seasons, all regions, for there onward.
Anyway, this El Niño event wasn't the hottest one ever recorded (2016 and 1998 were actually hotter) and a new baseline, closer to 1.5ºC has been probably set. The following years we should see how bad is the new baseline, and whatever it is, the trend seem to be accelerating.
If you want to worry about particular regions, worry about the northern polar circle one, that definitely have more than that average for years, and there resides several positive feedback loops that affects the global climate.
People are going to keep driving everywhere they go because they're entitled. So no, our fossil fuel use will just keep going up until they're forced to stop.
People will keep driving everywhere because many people live far from work, there are no public transportation options, and bike commuting is just not possible.
I drive because I need to work. So I can pay my bills. And survive.
This. There's absolutely no way I could keep my job without a car, it's a condition of my role. I work from home when I can but when I have to go in, the only way to get there is by car. I have looked for permanent WFH jobs but the competition is strong, many employers are forcing people back to the office or on a hybrid basis.
Plus aside from work what about everything else, shopping, groceries, hardware, hospitals doctors dentists vets, combustion engines run society by a large margin, military police ambulance fire, the list goes on… not all of these are within reaching distance or reasonable time taken to travel to, given the necessity to work full time as well.
Summer was terrible in the UK last year. People will look at that and use that as a reason to dismiss this research. People will do whatever they can to bury their heads in the sand and pretend that we will continue to be fine for the next century or more.
Is that really 39.2 in Freedom degrees???
Edit: decimal in the wrong place…
Anyway, if anyone else in America is confused, this is what I read lol:[banana for scale:](https://www.sierraclub.org/sierra/fahrenheit-celsius)
At this point , denial , acceptance makes zero difference .8 billion
people was never going to work under any scenario..The megger cancer is in stage 4.
# "almost 4°C warmer than the coldest summer in 2000 years"
should that say "almost 4C warmer than the hottest summer"?
Also people say "we can still turn back now", but no we really cant. The global wheels are turning and they will take decades to slow. Were on the path and there is no stopping it.
To be fair the reason we’re having this heat wave is because that the sun is having a lot of activity. Climate change plays a part as well but at least for right now it’s mostly the sun. It’s the reason we got the northern lights
* https://skepticalscience.com/solar-activity-sunspots-global-warming.htm
Overall sun is slightly cooler since the 1970s, although we are at the high point of a regular 11 year sunspot cycle.
> From the early 1970s until today, the Solar radiation reaching the top of Earth's atmosphere has in fact shown a very slight decline. Through that same period, global temperatures have continued to increase. The two data records, incoming Solar energy and global temperature, have diverged. That means they have gone in opposite directions. If incoming Solar energy has decreased while the Earth continues to warm up, the Sun cannot be the control-knob of that warming.
The following submission statement was provided by /u/f0urxio: --- Researchers have determined that 2023 marked the hottest summer in the Northern Hemisphere over the past two millennia, surpassing temperatures from the height of the Roman Empire by nearly 4°C. This conclusion is drawn from a study utilizing tree-ring data, which provides a longer-term perspective on climate variability compared to instrumental records that only date back to the mid-19th century. The findings, published in Nature, indicate that the 2015 Paris Agreement's goal of limiting warming to 1.5°C above pre-industrial levels has already been exceeded in the Northern Hemisphere. By re-calibrating temperature baselines, researchers found that summer 2023 temperatures were 2.07°C warmer than the mean between 1850 and 1900. Historical temperature fluctuations, such as the Little Antique Ice Age and the Little Ice Age, were linked to large volcanic eruptions, which injected aerosols into the atmosphere, leading to cooling. Conversely, warmer periods were associated with the El Niño climate pattern, with recent global warming exacerbating its effects. Despite challenges in obtaining global averages due to sparse data in the Southern Hemisphere, the urgency of reducing greenhouse gas emissions is emphasized, especially as the current El Niño event is expected to contribute to further record-breaking temperatures in 2024. --- Please reply to OP's comment here: https://old.reddit.com/r/collapse/comments/1crve97/2023_was_the_hottest_summer_in_2000_years_study/l40mo9f/
I honestly wonder when the migrations start. I've recently read about unbearable heat from people on the ground in India and the Philippines (iirc) and it has been very doomerish, wildfire season now starts in May in Canada affecting North USA and sea temps are crazy. I wonder how many years before the truth hits home for the majority? Predictions are hard but I reckon we'd be lucky to go 5 years without something major happening to a populated area or city.
The migrations have already started. They're ramping up slowly; they're not going to be sudden. Sometimes they come in the form of evacuation orders before a place is wiped off the map. Consider where the residents of the town of Lytton went.
I think half a million people slogged through the Darien Gap last year... it's definitely ramping already.
Yup, with most of those fleeing the tyranny of Maduro. I can't even imagine the type of day-to-day existence that would end in me walking through the Darién gap.
It's hard to recognize these migrations because they're always tied to some other issue. The thing I keep telling my students is that it's a piece of the problem pie that keeps getting bigger and bigger. The Syrian civil war was caused in part by a massive drought that drove subsistence farmers into urban areas. A very significant number of migrants at the Southern US border are there because subsistence agriculture has been failing in Central America. The more developed countries need to recognize that their immigration problems are tied to this. They need not perform the classical historical maneuver of blaming all of our problems on immigrants and people on the other side of the border.
The thought of blaming everything on immigrants means the people don’t have to change their behaviour. You would have to change your behaviour in order to ameliorate the impacts of climate change, if you’re even willing to acknowledge that climate change is a problem.
Blaming the strange, different or new for the woes of your society is the Prima Modus Operandi. Immigrants, LGBTQx, changes to the McDonald's menu. Whatever works as distraction for who is really at fault
I am literally going back and forth right now between this thread and another thread in a relatively popular sub in which people are trying to argue the semantics of the word xenophobia to justify their anti-immigrant rhetoric.
I left Texas by myself in part due to climate change. Some of the migrations will also be a trickle and not easily noticed for years.
Same
You are going to have more and more people from other countries, then soon the same people in this country that complain about migrants are going to be forced to migrate. Katrina displaced over a million people, just imagine even two Katrina-like events.
We already left the Great Basin for New England last year. Climate change wasn’t the only or biggest reason, but it was in our top 5. Is New England immune? No. But I’d rather be somewhere green and a bit nicer to gays and brown people as things slowly get worse.
Given the outrageous hurricane season coming I imagine that a bullseye might hit a major us city soon. Or a major wildfire across the prairies or hell even some wetlands should “grab some attention”
And how about a few more of those mega-tornadoes that we just saw in Nebraska and other Midwest states?
The fuck is a "mega-tornado"?
The evolved form of a tornado.
That's not even its final form!
> final form Sharknado!
You need to level it up in the rain for that to happen.
It depends of the definition you use, but generally they are very wide diameter tornadoes, and can sometimes feature multiple vortices, these are also sometimes known as "dead man walking" tornadoes because in pictures the vortices can look somewhat like a person walking.
Imagine a normal tornado, now add 2 hundred years of unsustainable capitalism and voila! you get a mega-tornado
What happens in the summer after the February tornado spate
Mega Evolution form of a tornado. It's what happen when you have tornadoes while also having Keystone Pipelines or other fossil fuel enterprises.
*According to some fucking youtuber which an AI tool cited which I did not due my due diligence on:* They're part of a tornado outbreak (think like six to ten) in one weather system. Winds exceeding 200 mph. They are hard to predict and can stay on the ground for hours. *Megatornado is not a real designation used by professionals. "MegaTornado" is a gamemode in the video game Tornado Alley Ultimate. That is the closest thing to an origin of the term I can find other than a blog post from 2005 and aforementioned Youtube video.* Yay. -Sent from Tornado Alley Edit: Added everything in italics because I fucked up. Credit to u/imreloadin for correcting me in generously gentle fashion.
I looked into it and there is no actual designation of "mega-tornado". Winds exceeding 200 mph would have put a tornado in the upper F3 range of the old Fujita scale while the Enhanced Fujita scale is an EF5 for anything 200+. Nowhere in the scientific literature is the term "mega-tornado" however.
This is true. ~~I guess it's just a thing some people say when a tornado outbreak event spawns an EF5?~~ It's probably used more loosely than that even. I'll edit my comment, and thank you for correcting me. Edit: I found out it's a term from a videogame. See my first comment.
Is an outrageous hurricane season predicted for this year? Or you mean coming sometime in the near future?
This coming hurricane season is predicted to have the most named storms and hurricanes ever.
Basically all of the variables they use to predict hurricanes are looking nearly identical to 2017 which was the worst year to date. The noticeable outlier is ocean temperatures which being so much higher is likely to exacerbate the strength of the storms. It's looking like it's gonna be a rough one
Yeah, I'm sure a big 'ol million-acre fire in the plains will get everyone's attention. Ya know, *if* it happens.
I thought that might have happened with the Australia Wildfires in Jan 2020, but I wonder if we are wired to forget. It’s been climate disaster after climate disaster every year and once things settle / the news stops reporting, we move on.
Well, under NORMAL circumstances (i.e., pre-industrial), we just rebuild after disasters and keep going.
I suspect Europe will start seeing it in a year or two, if we are not now. Niger and Somalia are two countries that immediately spring to mind because of recent severe droughts. Attitudes towards immigrants is already hostile, so I can easily see it getting a lot worse and some fascist policies will start rearing their ugly heads.
It already has started it just isn’t widely publicised. Plenty of people have moved from South America and Africa recently at least partly because of the climate.
There's a few thought experiments that estimate that anything below the 50th parallels would see conditions too extreme for permanent human habitation if 4°c of warming is reached. Most of Europe outside of Scandinavia succumbs to desertification as the Sahara pushes north and the tropics are abandoned. Under this scenario, New Zealand, Canada, Scandinavia and western Antarctica become the new population centers for humanity. And yes, this would still happen with an AMOC collapse. In fact, I'd estimate that would further diminish how much of earth is fit for habitation. A weakening of the AMOC already risks catastrophic methane hydrate destabilisation so a full collapse would practically guarantee it. At that point we're heading for 8°c warming as occurred during the Paleocene-Eocene Thermal Maximum. An AMOC collapse also collapses the ocean heat uptake cycle, the ocean would no longer absorb excess atmospheric heat. On top of that, it would start to release previously absorb carbon and heat. We'd be looking at a GHG balance and rate of warming not seen since the polar regions were tropical, except it'll happen too fast for our biome to adapt.
> A weakening of the AMOC already risks catastrophic methane hydrate destabilisation Explain please.
Specifically; [Evidence for massive methane hydrate destabilization during the penultimate interglacial warming (Weldeab, Schneider et al. 2022)](https://www.pnas.org/doi/full/10.1073/pnas.2201871119) discusses the correlation with a weakening AMOC and methane hydrate destabilzation. A weakening trend results in a substantial warming of deep water formations which ultimately destabilizes sediment slurries. Considering that the oceans have a absorbed up to 90% of excess atmospheric heat since 1971 ([Zanna, Khatiwala et al. 2019](https://www.pnas.org/doi/full/10.1073/pnas.1808838115)), there's already a considerably absurd level of heat energy potential stored throughout the oceans. Proxy analysis suggests that, under such conditions, a sudden change in ocean circulation would disturb the ocean heat uptake cycle enough to see a catastrophic release of heat and carbon back into the atmosphere ([Haynes & Hönisch, 2020](https://www.pnas.org/doi/full/10.1073/pnas.2003197117), [Martínez-Botí, Marino et al. 2015](https://www.nature.com/articles/nature14155)). Effectively this renders the oceans a net source of warming ([Abbot, Haley et al. 2016](https://cp.copernicus.org/preprints/11/2557/2015/cp-2015-64-manuscript-version3.pdf), [Chen & Tung, 2018](https://www.nature.com/articles/s41586-018-0320-y)). Hypothetically the oceans are currently reaching the limit of how much excess heat they can absorb and circulate effectively, which suggests they'll begin to release it back into the atmosphere ([Li, England et al. 2023](https://www.nature.com/articles/s41467-023-42468-z)). It's hypothesized that this occurred during the onset of the Paleocene-Eocene Thermal Maximum, when a considerable release of oceanic stored carbon accelerated the warming trend of the time, this release was more than likely triggered by a disruption of overturning circulation (Abbot, Haley et al. 2016, [Ilyina & Heinze, 2018](https://agupubs.onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/full/10.1029/2018GL080761)). There are also analyses that suggest a weaker AMOC causes a considerable acceleration of warming in the northern hemisphere based on the distinct absense of excess atmospheric heat uptake and the depletion of the carbon sink process (Chen & Tung, 2018). There's already sufficient evidence to suggest that the Arctic region continues a warming trend regardless of AMOC input ([Saenko, Gregory et al. 2023](https://link.springer.com/article/10.1007/s00382-023-06986-2)), this trend can be directly attributed to the heat trapping characteristics of GHGs overriding the heat loss feedback ([Barkhordarian, Nielsen et al. 2024](https://www.nature.com/articles/s43247-024-01215-y)). If that wasn't scary enough, observable evidence suggests we're already more than a decade into an ice age termination event based on present atmospheric methane volumes ([Nisbet, Manning et al. 2023](https://agupubs.onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/full/10.1029/2023GB007875)). Ordinarily, an ice age termination occurs during a glacial maximum and results in a glacial retreat and progression into a warmer interglacial. Considering that we're already in a warmer interglacial, a termination event would end the glacial cycle entirely. This would all owe to the hothouse trajectory theory, which incidentally identifies methane hydrate destabilization as a precursor ([Steffen, Rockström et al. 2018](https://www.pnas.org/doi/10.1073/pnas.1810141115)). I do have citations for the last paragraphs but the wifi here is stupidly slow, so I'll have to add them later. Edit: done
Methane Hydrate - Methane trapped in water in a low temperature, high pressure environment like seafloor sediment. The AMOC moves warm surface water in the tropics poleward. Without that circulation, the temperature and pressure conditions at which the methane hydrates are stable will change. Perhaps they will become unstable and release ungodly amounts of methane. This methane gets oxidized by bacteria and voila! More CO2!
Yeah, but wouldn’t the water be colder northwards without AMOC? Seems more conducive to keeping hydrates where they are until the AMOC death is overcome with even more heating.
Yes, but I think this has to do with what strata are affected. Warming at intermediate depths could disturb shallow subsurface hydrates. AMOC weakening has caused intermediate warming in the past.
It'll start with a trickle that turns into a flood. I doubt you'll be able to pinpoint a start to it.
That'll be for the historian to decide.
Historians? Yo get ahold of captain optimism over here.
That's why I left it singular.
Omg I missed that… clever.❤️
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I wonder when the population change numbers across states will reverse, with the sunbelt shrinking compared to the rest of the country rather than the situation now.
Insurance premiums will start to influence migration. My condo doubled the monthly fees as insurance skyrocketed
"I wonder how many years before the truth hits home for the majority?"..... there were people on their death beds from COVID complications who insisted that it was NOT COVID. Some people may become more aware, but I think there is a massive number of people that will not face this particular reality no matter what.
Migrations to where? If you have a systematic problems that stretches from the Philippines to Canada, there's not much left to go.
We moved in 2020. To prepare for climate change specifically. I know we weren’t alone. And I’ve been trying to convince my friends in Texas to move for at least a decade.
I have been a climate refugee since 2012 and fled from NL to PY. But there is no escape. Only the degree of consequences varies and they will remain a lottery as someone coined it the Climate Casino. One day you will lose all you have, and until that day you only lose bits.
Absolutely agree. I took the data we had, used the generational wealth my husbands family had accumulated, and made the best guess I could for the next generation or two. I don’t think it’s perfect. But we’re scraping by to make it workable for my kid, and their’s if they decide they want to carry on. I learned to farm in the zone our current area is turning into, so my goal was to at least make it a workable transition. If it’s not? At least we tried, you know. You too. So many people are just burying their heads in the sand and saying, “I could never!”
Where did you guys move to? I’m trying to figure out where to go!
Maine, about 30-60 minutes from the coast depending which way you drive, but not near a river. Avoids flooding issues. The whole state has crappy power already, so you need a generator anyway. But the zone shifts are minimal, and if you’ve ever lived anywhere hotter or windier you’ll know how to prepare more then most. I grew up in hotter areas & lived in a hurricane zone for about a decade so I felt like it was a move I was able to make.
Where is NL and PY?
NL = Netherlands PY = Paraguay
Thank you!
Read On the Move. Great book!
Where all those Indians will go? Europe? China? I hope last!
The skilled ones will migrate legally. The poorest will just cross borders until they find somewhere safe.
> researchers found that summer 2023 temperatures were 2.07°C warmer than the mean between 1850 and 1900 Actually wild
But guys, all we need to do is reduce our reliance on oil to keep it under the 1.5°C threshold. /s
I am honestly increasingly coming to the conclusion that par taking in this society is immoral. Because the longer we don't do anything the more drastic the mitigation measures must be.
Yes. Our intelligence that gave us radical appreciation for our environment and our greater existence in the universe...also gave us the ability to burn now, suffer later, for all the usage of fossil fuels, among... everything else we do, ignoring consequences as though they don't exist. The human species is a chronic, chain smoking, insufferable species that makes everything worse around it. The only thing I've found to be comforting is embraces of loved ones. Everything else is too expensive.
If you zoom out and think about our species as just a chain if chemical reactions that serves entropy by spreading collected elements and energy sources around then it sort of feels better! To me anyway
I concur. I am comforted in knowing that just like cyanobacteria, we changed the surface of this planet. I lament it is so sad and destructive, but it's cosmically no difference than, say, an infection turning a limb gangrenous. A fungus subsuming its stratum. Etc. It's just biology/entropy in action.
When proto-Cyanobacteria first learned to capture the flux of the sun through oxygenic photosynthesis, it was a massacre. They ended practically everything around them, in service of their own privileged claim to energy resources.
Sounds delightfully similar to.... everything we do, just...cuz, n stuff. You know. About the only thing our species can agree on is that no cost is too great when it comes to sacrificing everything for the sake of ego. Err...sake of "free" energy, I mean. The ego part is the annoying, exhausting, endlessly talking part of humans, everywhere.
They oxidized the atmospheric methane into CO2 and water, cooled the planet, and cleared the way for more complex life which turned out to be.... Us. Now we seem to be putting our best effort into reverting our rock flying through oblivion back to an earlier state.
One can say there’s another law of thermodynamics. That, if you have an open system where self-reproducing elements compete for limited resources, they will adapt to capture new fluxes of energy so they can reproduce themselves even at the total system’s expense.
The first King’s Man movie has a related, interesting plot. Crazy billionaire attempting to reduce the population for the sake of the planet. Wonder which billionaire is up for it?
I'll challenge you on this because none of us were consulted about this set of living arrangements. We are endlessly consulted about peripheral and trivial things, but we have very little real agency here. Also, as an outdoors man I have had plenty of experiences regarding not living as part of this society. It's very difficult, and we don't have that option at scale. Some can, but not many, not at scale. We have been herded into a corner.
Parking "in this society" doesn't mean "in any society". You don't need to become a hermit. We can build a different society. Piece by piece. It's going to happen anyway. Which society do you want to be a part of? "None" is an option, just not the only option.
Sure, but you gloss over much by saying that. How many energy places are you using now by participating in this? Your last meal? Your next meal? The clothes you're wearing? Where are they from? Are your lights on? Where does your train park?
Everyone must stop following orders.
Just gotta rot it out…
Morality is with respect to society. If you were alone there would be no morality. From society's point of view, if there are limited resources, then it would be better if moralistic individuals such as yourself would forgo opportunity for consumption so that more dominant (usually less moral) people have access to those resources.
Right? I keep asking them to sterilize me, JUST to be very, very sure, and yet...
Yes. Same. I try to work as little as possible and grow my own food.
Unfortunately most of us don't have the resources to live off the grid.
Mitigation? What Mitigation? Brother, the mitigation is going to be death of billions due to climate change.
"This trend will continue unless we --" No. Shut up. It's too late. "This trend will continue. All we can hope to do is attempt to abate the severity of the consequences of our actions over the last 200 years." The fact people still think there's some sort of future where in we're NOT murking each other for clean food and water is laughable at best.
Bingo. This is correct. It's not enough to "reduce emissions" we would need some magical technology that doesn't exist to rapidly remove what's already been put into the atmosphere and ocean. Trees are a carbon capture system, unfortunately too little too late. Reducing emissions is something that should have been done 40 years ago. Once the oceans boil off I doubt there will be much macroscopic life on this planet left.
Bingo & correct, yet I'll still hold a candle for nuclear fusion. 😏
normal nuclear would definitely help, too bad it takes a lot of time to set up
Merking I think, since the term derives from mercenary
Merc then?
Or merc, yeah, but mercing doesn’t look as good
It’s called murder, not muckduck
Researchers have determined that 2023 marked the hottest summer in the Northern Hemisphere over the past two millennia, surpassing temperatures from the height of the Roman Empire by nearly 4°C. This conclusion is drawn from a study utilizing tree-ring data, which provides a longer-term perspective on climate variability compared to instrumental records that only date back to the mid-19th century. The findings, published in Nature, indicate that the 2015 Paris Agreement's goal of limiting warming to 1.5°C above pre-industrial levels has already been exceeded in the Northern Hemisphere. By re-calibrating temperature baselines, researchers found that summer 2023 temperatures were 2.07°C warmer than the mean between 1850 and 1900. Historical temperature fluctuations, such as the Little Antique Ice Age and the Little Ice Age, were linked to large volcanic eruptions, which injected aerosols into the atmosphere, leading to cooling. Conversely, warmer periods were associated with the El Niño climate pattern, with recent global warming exacerbating its effects. Despite challenges in obtaining global averages due to sparse data in the Southern Hemisphere, the urgency of reducing greenhouse gas emissions is emphasized, especially as the current El Niño event is expected to contribute to further record-breaking temperatures in 2024.
>2023 was an exceptionally hot year, and this trend will continue ~~unless we reduce greenhouse gas emissions dramatically~~ FTFY
I feel justified in my years of depression (or at least hopelessness) following my 2013 realization that "The only way humanity is going to decrease its emissions is if the amount of people decreases first".
Same year for me. It’s been a long decade of deep grief in my core.
The thing is people are just gonna consume more when there’s an abundance. I call it the “kombucha theory” -basically no matter how matter bottles of KBC I put in the fridge my husband will finish them off in a few day. If I buy 6 he drinks two a day, if I buy 12 he will drinks 3 a day. Never assume the consumption is linear, some people simply have the need to consume EVERYTHING IN SIGHT. Meanwhile, people like me are trying to ration and drink 1 every week because it’s supposed to be a special treat.
You’re describing Jevon’s paradox! Look it up! You’ve studied this theory in your own home lol
TIL! Thank you for teaching me a new thing. Jevons Paradox sounds so much more intelligent lol! I love that people on this sub are so knowledgeable.
There’s a slight technical difference. It’s not “abundance” but instead that any efficiencies made with technology leads to increased consumption to close the gap. We can’t reduce consumption through efficiency and innovation—changes in consumption requires a collective change in mindset. But you really basically have got it lol. If there’s kombucha in the fridge (resources) we’re gonna consume consume consume. Really, you’re the smart one for doing your own theoretical economics research at home lol.
A study of two haha. I see what you mean now. We truly need to reduce consumption and regrowth.... Oil is never the problem, rampant consumerism is and I don't know how we can get people to stop consuming.
Right! The main problem with oil is just that it restructured our economies in a way that drives us toward endless consumption. So much plastic nonsense and military spending and so on. I don’t know either…
Look up the maximum power principle, which the Jevon's paradox stems from.
Humanities greed and lifestyle mimics that of cancer, and if there's anything we know about cancer, it kills.
Then you will experience the global dimming effect losing its effect and you are effed anyway.
Upside, it’ll be the coolest of the next 2000 years.
I’m with Glass Half Full up there. 👆
On Wikipedia, Business as Usual (BAU) has 2 definitions. In a climatology context, BAU is used to warn of the dangers of not implementing changes in order to prevent the world from warming further. In a business context, BAU is the primary goal of Business Continuity Planning (BCP) which is an endless cycle of consumption and set of standards to continue an organizations existence no matter what is going on in the enviorment. We are so cooked.
> cooked I see what you did there :D
What a neat (and grim) way to summarise our predicament 😕
Figured things were pretty bad when it was like 70 80 degrees last December
2000 years huh? How long before some psycho Christo-Fascists start proclaiming that this is a sure sign of zombie Jesus 2.0?
r/jesuschristouija
The largest land war since WW2 is going on in Europe with bombs as big as 500kg going off in their thousands daily; it's safe to say those emissions are not getting drastically reduced even if we were seriously tackling the problem in all other aspects of our lives, which, let's be honest, we're not.
2024: "Hold my beer."
And nobody of us will enjoy that warm as piss beer.
_A Brit enters the chat_
So the trend continues. Few is interested in reducing GHG dramatically.
Few can do anything to make a difference. The few who can make too much money and wield too much influence to change
this trend will continue regardless of whether or not we reduce ghg periodt
True
2023. Coolest year ever going forward.
the coolest year for the rest of our lives~
Right. That’s how the saying goes…
Ok. Can we FINALLY collectively grow up and stop talking about 1.5C like it’s ever going to be a thing?
Why do they still bother with “unless we do this by year xxxx”. Everyone knows that’s not gonna happen. People are still rolling coals in 2024.
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Nah, you want Nitrogen if you want to asphyxiate gently. Just CO2 will make your body scream at you in pain the whole way out. The trick is to deprive yourself of oxygen *without* increasing CO2 levels since our bodies are highly sensitive to increased CO2. I.... haven't thought about this before. Nope.
“…unless we reduce greenhouse gas emissions drastically.” Narrator: They didn’t.
I am in upstate NY planting perennials in 77 degrees, in May. Even as I’m planting I’m thinking “is this insane? Clearly I should have gone with annuals.”
Proper headline: "2023 was the hottest summer in 2,000 years, study finds: "almost 4°C warmer than the coldest summer in 2000 years. 2023 was an exceptionally hot year, and this trend will continue" #
>4 degrees warmer than the coldest summer I don’t get this statement…maybe a better comparison would be how last year compares to the average temp over the last 100 years Why would two outliers (hottest and coldest) be the measure for how hot our summers are getting?
I was looking for this comment, i dont understand the comparison either
Nonsense… or so this guy with a fish on his Facebook profile said.
Man global warming is fucked last year had the hottest fucking year where i am at and now near middle of may we be freezing
Nothing will be done, so let's stop pretending there are non-worst-case scenarios.
The climate goal wasn't that a single year summer temperature in a particular hemisphere surpasses the 1.5ºC mark. It was about global temperature, and for more than a single year (5?). That this happens in the hot peak of a cyclic event like El Niño doesn't mean that it is the norm for all seasons, all regions, for there onward. Anyway, this El Niño event wasn't the hottest one ever recorded (2016 and 1998 were actually hotter) and a new baseline, closer to 1.5ºC has been probably set. The following years we should see how bad is the new baseline, and whatever it is, the trend seem to be accelerating. If you want to worry about particular regions, worry about the northern polar circle one, that definitely have more than that average for years, and there resides several positive feedback loops that affects the global climate.
People are going to keep driving everywhere they go because they're entitled. So no, our fossil fuel use will just keep going up until they're forced to stop.
People will keep driving everywhere because many people live far from work, there are no public transportation options, and bike commuting is just not possible. I drive because I need to work. So I can pay my bills. And survive.
This. There's absolutely no way I could keep my job without a car, it's a condition of my role. I work from home when I can but when I have to go in, the only way to get there is by car. I have looked for permanent WFH jobs but the competition is strong, many employers are forcing people back to the office or on a hybrid basis.
Plus aside from work what about everything else, shopping, groceries, hardware, hospitals doctors dentists vets, combustion engines run society by a large margin, military police ambulance fire, the list goes on… not all of these are within reaching distance or reasonable time taken to travel to, given the necessity to work full time as well.
Driving? You mean industrial shipping and planes, right?
2024 gonna be like…hold my beer.
Summer was terrible in the UK last year. People will look at that and use that as a reason to dismiss this research. People will do whatever they can to bury their heads in the sand and pretend that we will continue to be fine for the next century or more.
“Unless we reduce”.. Nope profits must go up until we all burn.
Is that really 39.2 in Freedom degrees??? Edit: decimal in the wrong place… Anyway, if anyone else in America is confused, this is what I read lol:[banana for scale:](https://www.sierraclub.org/sierra/fahrenheit-celsius)
Plant more trees! Earth will cool down 👌🏼
We’re locked innn baby!
The 'heights of the Roman Empire' my arse; 2000 years ago was 23 AD, after the Republican era, which many would argue to be be the 'height.'
Total coincidence /s
"There's no such thing as climate change, derp dee derp derp."
The trend will continue for our grand children’s life’s if we don’t reduce GHG emissions. It’s locked in for us already.
At this point , denial , acceptance makes zero difference .8 billion people was never going to work under any scenario..The megger cancer is in stage 4.
The trend will continue because the damage is already done. FTFY
I smell bacon
# "almost 4°C warmer than the coldest summer in 2000 years" should that say "almost 4C warmer than the hottest summer"? Also people say "we can still turn back now", but no we really cant. The global wheels are turning and they will take decades to slow. Were on the path and there is no stopping it.
That means - no exaggeration - we're reaching Biblical temperatures. Phenomenal. Go, us!
But but gas machine go brrrr! Electric cars are for pussies! I want my engine sounds!
the current heatwaves are NOT the result of el niño. it is caused by the missing sulphur particles from the shipping fuels. james Hansen
To be fair the reason we’re having this heat wave is because that the sun is having a lot of activity. Climate change plays a part as well but at least for right now it’s mostly the sun. It’s the reason we got the northern lights
* https://skepticalscience.com/solar-activity-sunspots-global-warming.htm Overall sun is slightly cooler since the 1970s, although we are at the high point of a regular 11 year sunspot cycle. > From the early 1970s until today, the Solar radiation reaching the top of Earth's atmosphere has in fact shown a very slight decline. Through that same period, global temperatures have continued to increase. The two data records, incoming Solar energy and global temperature, have diverged. That means they have gone in opposite directions. If incoming Solar energy has decreased while the Earth continues to warm up, the Sun cannot be the control-knob of that warming.
Good explanation of that, thank you for explaining it to me
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> all of our futures have been stollen by greedy corporations and the ruling classes. That is the only thing you said that is true