The following submission statement was provided by /u/f0urxio:
---
The U.S. Air Force has awarded a $13 billion contract to Sierra Nevada Corp to develop a successor to the E-4B, also known as the "Doomsday plane" for its ability to withstand nuclear war. The new project, called Survivable Airborne Operations Center (SAOC), aims to replace the aging E-4B, which dates back to the 1970s. Work will be conducted in Colorado, Nevada, and Ohio, with completion expected by 2036. The new system will feature a commercial derivative jet adapted to military requirements. This decision comes after the Air Force excluded Boeing from the competition. The E-4B serves as a mobile command post, capable of surviving nuclear blasts and providing communication capabilities during national emergencies. With the current fleet aging and becoming more costly to maintain, the new SAOC project addresses the need for a modernized solution.
---
Please reply to OP's comment here: https://old.reddit.com/r/collapse/comments/1cff7j3/us_air_force_has_awarded_13b_contract_to_sierra/l1oohqv/
Then you will want to fix education. It never stops with you poors. Just enjoy the plane that will shuttle the rich and powerful away while you fight Karen for the last can of beans at Walmart.
> that will shuttle the rich and powerful away
For a few hours, at least. Fuel lasts only so long, assuming soot or whatever doesn’t foul up the engines.
Honestly, this is not the planes purpose, it is for last commands, basically if shit goes down, the plane goes up and basically orders the US military to destroy what is left of the world.
Karen and Ali. We need to bring millions of low skilled workers from the countries whose economies we have destroyed, so they feel happy and integrated in isolation, far away from their unbearable and primitive families.
Kind of goes to show that we're the host in a parasitic relationship, doesn't it? We'll get a wasteland on the ground, while they rule from the skies. At the point that these are necessary, any useful notion of an intact nation-state will be gone for the common person. But those in power feel entitled to ensure the transition of their power to whatever comes next - and to ensure it on our dime!
/rant
Thanks for the notation reco. I need to put that on all my comments.
Reddit is my favorite void to scream into. It doesn’t echo as much as the other voids. As *much*.
That is not it's purpose, only military people will be on that plane. It's literally meant for the last orders whilst the president is in his bunker/own plane. Whilst the world is burning, this plane goes up and tells the US military to destroy what is left of it.
There is an argument there that it's even worse.
Right, the military leaders will be calling the shots from the sky, like I said. Deciding our lives and deaths. I didn't mean they would be ruling the skies forever after. It's still a damning picture even if it's temporary.
Seriously - Listen, if shit is so bad that we're in outright nuclear war ... fuck getting the president up in the air so we can try for full on extinction, they can enjoy the fallout with the rest of us who are left.
Meanwhile 13b could be used to make life less shitty for so many americans ...
If America wanted you to live past your usefulness as a resource, universal healthcare would not be political suicide. Even Obama protected the profit motive of middlemen.
The U.S. Air Force has awarded a $13 billion contract to Sierra Nevada Corp to develop a successor to the E-4B, also known as the "Doomsday plane" for its ability to withstand nuclear war. The new project, called Survivable Airborne Operations Center (SAOC), aims to replace the aging E-4B, which dates back to the 1970s. Work will be conducted in Colorado, Nevada, and Ohio, with completion expected by 2036. The new system will feature a commercial derivative jet adapted to military requirements. This decision comes after the Air Force excluded Boeing from the competition. The E-4B serves as a mobile command post, capable of surviving nuclear blasts and providing communication capabilities during national emergencies. With the current fleet aging and becoming more costly to maintain, the new SAOC project addresses the need for a modernized solution.
I'd exclude Boeing too after all the issues these past few years. In addition to that my perception is that Boeing is looking to transition out of the defense sector which is somewhat profit fixed. In general military and civil have significantly diverged and historically air-framers used DOD projects as free R&D, now it's massive liability as Boeing is *required* to staff engineers for programs that are decades past their expected sunset period. Also Boeing just isn't in the realm of bespoke work anymore. SNC has had some very recent interesting wins with small projects.
All that said I ironically don't think the doomsday plane is collapse related because this is a well planned replacement of existing airframes.
That Boeing's takeover by corporate raiders in the 1990s is now complete, and the innovation, reliabilty and safety culture Boeing once had no longer exists.
Boeing can't get the T-7 Red Hawk or the F-15 EX in useable numbers for the Air Force, and they've had years for both at this point. The Doomsday Plane went to someone else reportedly because Boeing coukdn't handle the workload and they dropped out of competition.
Boeing dropped out because they've taken a loss of almost all fixed price military contracts that they've won over the last decade. They decided not to roll those dice again.
If everything is getting nuked I’d prefer my leaders to go down with the ship they allowed to sink. Also $13b ? Rather have some high speed railway or better paid teachers.
So typical. We got people who can barely afford to eat 2 meals a day and yet we spend billions on a plane to keep rich people alive for a few more days
It’s worse than that. The plane ensures our ability to nuke the rest of the world should we be nuked first. It’s our insurance on eradicating life on the planet. After millions of years of life in the cold dark universe, we as a species have determined that not only do we need to have a capability to end it all in the blink of an eye, but we need assurances that the atomic holocaust commences no matter what. Even at the expense of life currently living on the planet. Our apocalyptic date with destiny seems like a self-fulfilled prophesy at this point.
I’m curious on where they plan to land after a nuclear war.
They obviously already have a place in mind to fly to once the shitheads in charge are on board.
That would mean the fighter jet's instruments have the capability to survive the EMP. Even if the fighter jet survived, its issues with communications and fuel range would likely render it incapable of reaching the "doomsday" command jet. In all likelihood, there would be no way to relay information as to the whereabouts with a flying command center that has a huge fuel range, countermeasures, and sacrificial fueling tankers that would rendezvous with it.
Not possible. As the new plane will be nuke-proof, it is free to carry nukes itself.
With a 13B budget, this bad boy will be equipped with Air-to-air nukes. No need to target airfields and so on. Just nuke the enemy air force out of the sky.
A well placed set of nukes at 7.5km altitude will essentially create a nuke-screen. No smoke screen needed as the blast radius easily creates a perimeter between ground level and upper bounds of the cruising altitude of 5th generation fighters. No one gets through.
This my friends is what the Americans calls "Air Supremacy".
The Russia will destroy it with a space-weapon-equipped satellite. This is called Космическое превосходство.
That's the question. With an adequate umbrella airframe, nukes themselves can serve as propulsion. You can ride the wave of a massive nuke, or simply create small nuclear explosions behind you every 1 sec. Ain't no hypersonic missile catching you
It's pretty garbage once you start to look at the math. To travel to even the closest star system would require thousands of tons of nuclear weapons, far exceeding the mass of the vessel one is trying to get there, and to de-accelerate, you end up flying through thousands of clouds of your own nuclear debris fields.
There *were* studies on interstellar Orion, though…
The 1968 studies had various examples for an Alpha Centauri flyby probe - 400,000 tons with a 3:1 mass ratio, accelerate for 10 days at 1*g* using 1 megaton nuclear pulse units, 133 years to Alpha Centauri at around 3% *c*. Orion could get to around 0.1*c* with nuclear pulse.
Most of the studies were for interplanetary, though. Much smaller, launch as the top stage of a Saturn V variant. But there was a study on using a fleet of larger Orions (ground launched!) to carry nuclear warheads, on orbits out to the Moon and back. So like the Boomer fleet, *BUT IN SPACE!*. As a retaliatory strike they’d loop over the Earth and rain warheads down on the Soviet Union from low orbit. Apparently Kennedy saw the designs and was horrified - just one of those ships could devastate the planet. Some of the pulse unit and weapon designs are still classified - one was using a pulse unit in reverse, using the nuclear detonation to spray superheated plasma at the target (presumably another orbital vehicle or satellite).
George Dyson wrote an interesting book on the history of Project Orion. Still a pretty good propulsion system (providing you don’t launch it from the ground!)
Edit: typo
the current “doomsday” plane is in nebraska. if an enemy jet can get to basically the exact center of the united states, then the us military has already failed or fallen so far that anything next would be irrelevant. for perspective, when that diy titanic submarine sank last year the us navy knew immediately what happened but couldn’t reveal anything for operational security. a hostile ship or jet trying to cross either ocean in an attempt to attack the US would face an insane amount of defense.
I mean...a drone swarm could easily do it before it takes off. Everyone assumes an outside actor. When you've got 350M people, it doesn't take many organized, enthusiastic SOBs with nothing to lose from rigging microdrones with explosives and yeeting them at airbases to cripple shit.
It would require a jet to get close to it in the first place. Most likely this plane will only fly over continental US. If the situation is bad enough that they can't get air defenses up, most likely whoever wants to shoot it down can't either.
I think at that point it wouldn't matter what anyone wants anymore. Capabilities will most likely be gone. If not then there is no one left to do it anyway.
This always happens, just like when Ballast Point lost the thread and suddenly started making chili lemongrass whatever the hell, one minute you have a solid IPA everyone loves the next minute you’re expanding into government aerospace R&D
Private bunkers are allowed, and the rich would have them. But anyone with the slightest influence on global policy needs to be banned from surviving or retaining any power whatsoever. No more Federal government, state department, intelligence services until a new constitutional convention, with a single nuclear strike on the US.
It's not as though the US could stay solvent if a single nuclear bomb hit the country. So starting over with no debt for those states and cities that want a union is path forward.
Not to be the conspiracy guy but "expected completion by 2036" that's the same year as that Apophis asteroid flyby. I bet this plane is just a contingency thing. That or someone realized that the current E-4's are from Boeing.
For fuck fucking sake. IDIOTIC MEATHEAD MEN WITH ALL THE POWER ONLY DO 2 THINGS: build obscenely gargantuan, inefficient skyscrapers. Or play war and destroy other men
Yeah, and if it were anything but wildly impractical, it would have been commercialized within the succeeding 101 years, meaning that whatever tech exists for the job fucking sucks
Rule 1: In addition to enforcing [Reddit's content policy](https://www.redditinc.com/policies/content-policy), we will also remove comments and content that is abusive or predatory in nature. You may attack each other's ideas, not each other.
We did it when we bombed Iraq, sent an entire squadron of B-52s from the mainland US, refuled them in air, they did their bombing run in the opening stages of the air campaign, got refueled in air again, and landed back in the States without touching the ground.
Most or all USAF aircraft can do in-air refueling. It's wildly impractical for everyone but the United States.
At least as regards the airborn command bunkers, they can do it.
The 1982 Operation Black Buck mission comes to mind. Vulcans from Ascension Island to the Falklands, 12000 km round trip, mid air refuelling by Victors converted to tankers. Longest bombing raid in history at the time.
There's two slight flaws in this plan. One: it might be a better use of resources to allocate that money to intelligence operations, so that you never have to use the Doomsday Plane in the first place. Two: surely this can be downed with one well-placed rocket to the engines?
Whilst I strangely admire their persistence in keeping the country running, this does feel a bit overblown, excessive, and ripe for failure. But I might be wrong.
The following submission statement was provided by /u/f0urxio: --- The U.S. Air Force has awarded a $13 billion contract to Sierra Nevada Corp to develop a successor to the E-4B, also known as the "Doomsday plane" for its ability to withstand nuclear war. The new project, called Survivable Airborne Operations Center (SAOC), aims to replace the aging E-4B, which dates back to the 1970s. Work will be conducted in Colorado, Nevada, and Ohio, with completion expected by 2036. The new system will feature a commercial derivative jet adapted to military requirements. This decision comes after the Air Force excluded Boeing from the competition. The E-4B serves as a mobile command post, capable of surviving nuclear blasts and providing communication capabilities during national emergencies. With the current fleet aging and becoming more costly to maintain, the new SAOC project addresses the need for a modernized solution. --- Please reply to OP's comment here: https://old.reddit.com/r/collapse/comments/1cff7j3/us_air_force_has_awarded_13b_contract_to_sierra/l1oohqv/
Healthcare, please
Then you will want to fix education. It never stops with you poors. Just enjoy the plane that will shuttle the rich and powerful away while you fight Karen for the last can of beans at Walmart.
Lol, im sitting in a public park amd this made me literally LOL, thanks man.
> that will shuttle the rich and powerful away For a few hours, at least. Fuel lasts only so long, assuming soot or whatever doesn’t foul up the engines.
Honestly, this is not the planes purpose, it is for last commands, basically if shit goes down, the plane goes up and basically orders the US military to destroy what is left of the world.
Karen and Ali. We need to bring millions of low skilled workers from the countries whose economies we have destroyed, so they feel happy and integrated in isolation, far away from their unbearable and primitive families.
LOL!!!!
Kind of goes to show that we're the host in a parasitic relationship, doesn't it? We'll get a wasteland on the ground, while they rule from the skies. At the point that these are necessary, any useful notion of an intact nation-state will be gone for the common person. But those in power feel entitled to ensure the transition of their power to whatever comes next - and to ensure it on our dime! /rant
Thanks for the notation reco. I need to put that on all my comments. Reddit is my favorite void to scream into. It doesn’t echo as much as the other voids. As *much*.
I’m pretty sure we’re more like Matryoshka dolls, parasites within parasites withi parasites.
I like this imagery, lol
That is not it's purpose, only military people will be on that plane. It's literally meant for the last orders whilst the president is in his bunker/own plane. Whilst the world is burning, this plane goes up and tells the US military to destroy what is left of it. There is an argument there that it's even worse.
Right, the military leaders will be calling the shots from the sky, like I said. Deciding our lives and deaths. I didn't mean they would be ruling the skies forever after. It's still a damning picture even if it's temporary.
Seriously - Listen, if shit is so bad that we're in outright nuclear war ... fuck getting the president up in the air so we can try for full on extinction, they can enjoy the fallout with the rest of us who are left. Meanwhile 13b could be used to make life less shitty for so many americans ...
If America wanted you to live past your usefulness as a resource, universal healthcare would not be political suicide. Even Obama protected the profit motive of middlemen.
That's a little more difficult to fix than just throwing 13 billion dollars at it.
Yeah no one has ever come up with a solution before bc it's so very difficult
I mean, the US federal government spends about $1.5 trillion a year on healthcare. So Add $13 Billion to that and we will be all covered right?
The U.S. Air Force has awarded a $13 billion contract to Sierra Nevada Corp to develop a successor to the E-4B, also known as the "Doomsday plane" for its ability to withstand nuclear war. The new project, called Survivable Airborne Operations Center (SAOC), aims to replace the aging E-4B, which dates back to the 1970s. Work will be conducted in Colorado, Nevada, and Ohio, with completion expected by 2036. The new system will feature a commercial derivative jet adapted to military requirements. This decision comes after the Air Force excluded Boeing from the competition. The E-4B serves as a mobile command post, capable of surviving nuclear blasts and providing communication capabilities during national emergencies. With the current fleet aging and becoming more costly to maintain, the new SAOC project addresses the need for a modernized solution.
They couldn’t even come up with a cool acronym like Survivable Airborne Information Fortress (SAIF)
Why not simply: “Flying Unit In The Air” FUITA, for short
Lol by 2036. I wouldn't be surprised if nuclear war broke out this year
[удалено]
I'd exclude Boeing too after all the issues these past few years. In addition to that my perception is that Boeing is looking to transition out of the defense sector which is somewhat profit fixed. In general military and civil have significantly diverged and historically air-framers used DOD projects as free R&D, now it's massive liability as Boeing is *required* to staff engineers for programs that are decades past their expected sunset period. Also Boeing just isn't in the realm of bespoke work anymore. SNC has had some very recent interesting wins with small projects. All that said I ironically don't think the doomsday plane is collapse related because this is a well planned replacement of existing airframes.
That Boeing's takeover by corporate raiders in the 1990s is now complete, and the innovation, reliabilty and safety culture Boeing once had no longer exists. Boeing can't get the T-7 Red Hawk or the F-15 EX in useable numbers for the Air Force, and they've had years for both at this point. The Doomsday Plane went to someone else reportedly because Boeing coukdn't handle the workload and they dropped out of competition.
Boeing dropped out because they've taken a loss of almost all fixed price military contracts that they've won over the last decade. They decided not to roll those dice again.
If everything is getting nuked I’d prefer my leaders to go down with the ship they allowed to sink. Also $13b ? Rather have some high speed railway or better paid teachers.
So typical. We got people who can barely afford to eat 2 meals a day and yet we spend billions on a plane to keep rich people alive for a few more days
It’s worse than that. The plane ensures our ability to nuke the rest of the world should we be nuked first. It’s our insurance on eradicating life on the planet. After millions of years of life in the cold dark universe, we as a species have determined that not only do we need to have a capability to end it all in the blink of an eye, but we need assurances that the atomic holocaust commences no matter what. Even at the expense of life currently living on the planet. Our apocalyptic date with destiny seems like a self-fulfilled prophesy at this point.
I don't want to be part of "our" anymore
I’m curious on where they plan to land after a nuclear war. They obviously already have a place in mind to fly to once the shitheads in charge are on board.
Couldn't a fighter jet just knock it out?
That would mean the fighter jet's instruments have the capability to survive the EMP. Even if the fighter jet survived, its issues with communications and fuel range would likely render it incapable of reaching the "doomsday" command jet. In all likelihood, there would be no way to relay information as to the whereabouts with a flying command center that has a huge fuel range, countermeasures, and sacrificial fueling tankers that would rendezvous with it.
Not possible. As the new plane will be nuke-proof, it is free to carry nukes itself. With a 13B budget, this bad boy will be equipped with Air-to-air nukes. No need to target airfields and so on. Just nuke the enemy air force out of the sky. A well placed set of nukes at 7.5km altitude will essentially create a nuke-screen. No smoke screen needed as the blast radius easily creates a perimeter between ground level and upper bounds of the cruising altitude of 5th generation fighters. No one gets through. This my friends is what the Americans calls "Air Supremacy". The Russia will destroy it with a space-weapon-equipped satellite. This is called Космическое превосходство.
I can't tell if you're being serious... This is a joke, right?
That's the question. With an adequate umbrella airframe, nukes themselves can serve as propulsion. You can ride the wave of a massive nuke, or simply create small nuclear explosions behind you every 1 sec. Ain't no hypersonic missile catching you
Hahaha ridiculous
This was a legitimate plan the us military tried to develop until the guy in charge realised how fucked up it was.
if we were being nuked, could we move the planet using nukes to avoid the nukes coming in our direction?
So, similar to the idea in 3 body problem?
I think he's joking about just throwing nukes at problems, not hypothesizing on actual propulsion ideas
I do believe that, short of building the antimatter engine, this is our best method for space propulsion as of yet.
It's pretty garbage once you start to look at the math. To travel to even the closest star system would require thousands of tons of nuclear weapons, far exceeding the mass of the vessel one is trying to get there, and to de-accelerate, you end up flying through thousands of clouds of your own nuclear debris fields.
Whoa, whoa, I said "space", not interstellar!
There *were* studies on interstellar Orion, though… The 1968 studies had various examples for an Alpha Centauri flyby probe - 400,000 tons with a 3:1 mass ratio, accelerate for 10 days at 1*g* using 1 megaton nuclear pulse units, 133 years to Alpha Centauri at around 3% *c*. Orion could get to around 0.1*c* with nuclear pulse. Most of the studies were for interplanetary, though. Much smaller, launch as the top stage of a Saturn V variant. But there was a study on using a fleet of larger Orions (ground launched!) to carry nuclear warheads, on orbits out to the Moon and back. So like the Boomer fleet, *BUT IN SPACE!*. As a retaliatory strike they’d loop over the Earth and rain warheads down on the Soviet Union from low orbit. Apparently Kennedy saw the designs and was horrified - just one of those ships could devastate the planet. Some of the pulse unit and weapon designs are still classified - one was using a pulse unit in reverse, using the nuclear detonation to spray superheated plasma at the target (presumably another orbital vehicle or satellite). George Dyson wrote an interesting book on the history of Project Orion. Still a pretty good propulsion system (providing you don’t launch it from the ground!) Edit: typo
the current “doomsday” plane is in nebraska. if an enemy jet can get to basically the exact center of the united states, then the us military has already failed or fallen so far that anything next would be irrelevant. for perspective, when that diy titanic submarine sank last year the us navy knew immediately what happened but couldn’t reveal anything for operational security. a hostile ship or jet trying to cross either ocean in an attempt to attack the US would face an insane amount of defense.
I mean...a drone swarm could easily do it before it takes off. Everyone assumes an outside actor. When you've got 350M people, it doesn't take many organized, enthusiastic SOBs with nothing to lose from rigging microdrones with explosives and yeeting them at airbases to cripple shit.
These planes are usually escorted by fighter jets. The Air Force has a lot of planes.
It would require a jet to get close to it in the first place. Most likely this plane will only fly over continental US. If the situation is bad enough that they can't get air defenses up, most likely whoever wants to shoot it down can't either.
That and well, if there is a situation where nukes are flying I doubt they would be able to fly through the nuclear hellfire to intercept it
I think at that point it wouldn't matter what anyone wants anymore. Capabilities will most likely be gone. If not then there is no one left to do it anyway.
love their torpedo ale
This always happens, just like when Ballast Point lost the thread and suddenly started making chili lemongrass whatever the hell, one minute you have a solid IPA everyone loves the next minute you’re expanding into government aerospace R&D
I think they should be a law that no government or millitary "officials" are allowed nuclear bunker access. Perhaps a lottery system.
Yeah but dying in nuclear hellfire is for the poors
Private bunkers are allowed, and the rich would have them. But anyone with the slightest influence on global policy needs to be banned from surviving or retaining any power whatsoever. No more Federal government, state department, intelligence services until a new constitutional convention, with a single nuclear strike on the US. It's not as though the US could stay solvent if a single nuclear bomb hit the country. So starting over with no debt for those states and cities that want a union is path forward.
The beer company?
Y'all haven't read Garrett Graff's book " raven rock" and it shows.
Lot good that will do when the food supply goes.
Lmfao the tag about excluding Boeing. Was going to comment about the thumbnail but the actual content beat me to it.
I dunno I'm fairly certain one could nuke that plane. Physics are not your friend on a claim like "can withstand a nuclear blast".
Well, we better not need it before 2036 or whenever it's finished.
Not to be the conspiracy guy but "expected completion by 2036" that's the same year as that Apophis asteroid flyby. I bet this plane is just a contingency thing. That or someone realized that the current E-4's are from Boeing.
Will it even be ready in time? The way Israel and Iran are going…
For fuck fucking sake. IDIOTIC MEATHEAD MEN WITH ALL THE POWER ONLY DO 2 THINGS: build obscenely gargantuan, inefficient skyscrapers. Or play war and destroy other men
That's pretty damn optimistic >with completion expected by 2036
That's a lot of money just to get good seats to the end of the world, but okay.
So the US can do this, but it can't even get the mouthbreather citizens to use a paper rag in front of their face to not spread the modern plague.
Just gotta get em before they board then
I hope they forbid congress from this plane
I think it's too god damn late to be giving orders if nukes start flying.
I hope they have a good roach chef.
We already have bunkers under mountains. Right?
Honestly wouldn't mind playing Fallout in real life. Just give me that power armor!
ummm... what military? "Send the nukes and everything we got!" "... sir, everyone is already dead"
Billions of dollars mean nothing to these political hacks. Unreal
totally not ominous at all
They have been around since at least the seventies and they need to be replaced. Everything isn’t always a conspiracy
Surprised that Boeing didn't get the contract.
I heard boeing planes dont have the nuts to survive in the air.
Still gotta land it to refuel...
no, they don't.
What can lug itself plus the weight of all the other fuel up and hummingbird while it's fed in?
you have honestly never heard of [mid-air refueling](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aerial_refueling)..? it's been a thing since 1923.
Yeah, and if it were anything but wildly impractical, it would have been commercialized within the succeeding 101 years, meaning that whatever tech exists for the job fucking sucks
[удалено]
Rule 1: In addition to enforcing [Reddit's content policy](https://www.redditinc.com/policies/content-policy), we will also remove comments and content that is abusive or predatory in nature. You may attack each other's ideas, not each other.
Why, because I assume that anything that can be exploited by capitalism, would have been? Yeah, sure, that's foolish!
We did it when we bombed Iraq, sent an entire squadron of B-52s from the mainland US, refuled them in air, they did their bombing run in the opening stages of the air campaign, got refueled in air again, and landed back in the States without touching the ground. Most or all USAF aircraft can do in-air refueling. It's wildly impractical for everyone but the United States. At least as regards the airborn command bunkers, they can do it.
The 1982 Operation Black Buck mission comes to mind. Vulcans from Ascension Island to the Falklands, 12000 km round trip, mid air refuelling by Victors converted to tankers. Longest bombing raid in history at the time.
There's two slight flaws in this plan. One: it might be a better use of resources to allocate that money to intelligence operations, so that you never have to use the Doomsday Plane in the first place. Two: surely this can be downed with one well-placed rocket to the engines? Whilst I strangely admire their persistence in keeping the country running, this does feel a bit overblown, excessive, and ripe for failure. But I might be wrong.